Crazy Rich Asians: Part 4 - What Writers Can Learn

We're on the final episode of our analysis of the film Crazy Rich Asians, which debuted in 2018. Based on a 2013 novel of the same name, this was a highly successful film sold as a romantic comedy, but as you heard in earlier episodes, there's a lot more to this movie than what you might first expect. This week, we're reviewing the Heroic Journey archetypes, and then we spend time discussing what writers can take away from studying this film. This is the Storygrid podcast. I'm your host, Tim Grall, a writer and the CEO of StoryGrid. Joining me shortly is Rachel Arsenault, a Story Grid certified editor. We're spending four weeks looking closely at Crazy Rich Asians and how this masterwork story was constructed. We're going to use the StoryGrid methodology created and developed by our founder, Sean Coyne. If you would like to download our full analysis of the film, you can go right now to storygrid.com/crazy to download a PDF of our completed analysis of Crazy Rich Asians. Okay, let's jump in and get started. So let's look at the Heroic journey archetypes. So these are from, you know, probably originally from Jungian psychology, and then Campbell mechanized these in the Hero's Journey, and then Sean took that further, brought it kind of into the 21st century and added cognitive science and everything to the heroic journ. But the archetypes have pretty much stayed the same. So first one is the heroic agent. So who do you have for the heroic agent?

I think this one's pretty easy. I have Rachel, and I went ahead and added Nick in as well, because he's sort of. They're. They're navigating this as a couple. He's like a sub protagonist, I would say, but he's sort of right. This is about their. Their journey as a couple. So he. I kind of lump him in together with Rachel, but she's the primary heroic agent.

Okay. I had the same thing. So for the shadow agent or villain, I had Eleanor Young.

All right, so let's look at the mentor. So who did you have at playing the role of mentor for Rachel?

Fortunately, this is easy because this was also already in our status conventions. I have Rachel's mom as playing the primary mentor figure.

Yeah, I did not have that. Like I said, I. I had not thought of that. But I'd put Pick Lynn in here because she's helping her navigate the world. So when she, like, makes her change the dress so that she can go to the party and actually look correctly look, correct it. You know, I also have her under an ally, so it's hard to sometimes suss it out. But I still see her as like a form of a mentor. But I do think your answer is much more on the money of like her mom playing. Her mom is the one, you know, now that I'm going, I'm going to talk myself out of it. Her mom, the mentor, is the person who's been there before and understands what this person's the protagonist is about to get into. And her mom is the one that's been in this culture before and left and knows what Rachel is going to. So I'm changing my answer to her mother. All right, so let's look at the threshold guardian. So we've talked about this already, but it's worth talking about it here. So we have Eleanor as the threshold guardian, but do you have anything to add to that?

I do, and I've been looking forward to talking about this. So let me just get on my shtick here for a second. So Amma is another threshold guardian, right? Because she is gatekeeping Eleanor sort of at all times. And the interesting thing is that there's almost like a hierarchy of threshold guardians, so amaz at the top, right? And this is getting at sort of our power dominance hierarchy, really. That's a phrase that we use in story grid. So you have Amma at the top and then Eleanor under her. But then there are all of these minor characters who are participating in protecting their system. Right. So all of the enemies do this to agree to a degree, Amanda does it. I sort of have them vaguely as mean bachelorette party girls, the aunties. And basically what that's telling us, so we have a lot of people functioning in these more minor threshold guardian roles. And what that shows us is that gatekeeping is a major feature of this system. And not surprisingly, frequently when we're looking at a power dominance hierarchy, which.

Brief definition is sort of a non meritocratic gatekeeping oriented power system that is basically oriented, oriented around protecting itself and its own power. And that's contrasted with the growth hierarchy, which is more of a merit based, growth sharing, knowledge sharing kind of oriented system. These are my speed definitions. And so this, this kind of gatekeeping is a feature often of the power dominance hierarchy because it's always trying to keep people out and protect the existing system. And so that's how we see this sort of. We get these little indicators that this is a tightly closed system and a self protecting system because we don't just have one threshold Guardian. But we have basically everyone doing some kind of threshold guarding at almost all times.

Yeah, that's really good. I like that.

All right, so let's look at enemies. So I have down for the enemies as a mandolin. I have the, like, just the rich girls and then I have Amma as well as an enemy. So that's who I put down as the enemies.

Yep. And I've got the. I listed the aunties in there as well.

Okay.

Because they're sort of. They're. They're. I would consider them kind of antagonizing. They're lightly antagonizing, but still kind of antagonizing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, what about allies? Who were Rachel's allies in the story?

Yeah, her primary allies are Paiklin, Ollie Paiklin's family. Right. They really come through for her. And then Minzy and Colin are also. Or Error. Minsa, they call her. Minzy and Colin are also allies to. To Nick and Rachel, who sort of act in. In support of them.

Okay. So I had that as well. I'm glad you put the family, because I added them too, because it's almost like the family is this. Pick Lynn's family is this crazy mess of people that almost like solidify and pick Lynn. Like, she's almost like the leader of their family.

And yeah, Oliver, I had Astra down as well.

Oh, yeah, definitely.

Because he really comes through for her. Getting her ready for the. Getting her ready for the wedding. You know, I left.

Oh, did I already say I had Astrid? Did I have a yes. Oh, okay. I don't know what is wrong with me today. Hold on.

I'm with you. Just like, hanging up my thread over here.

All right, let me.

You know, it's interested that you put Colin and Minzy there, because this is actually one of the things I was going to come to later, but I don't feel like they're really allies in. In this because they never take a risk for her. Right. An ally is somebody that's going to, like, step out and, like, align themselves. And what I. This is one of the things I didn't love about their characters is they were almost kind of. They're like, oh, they're the ones that are getting married. Right. And now there is that whole thing when she gets there and they go out to dinner and everything and they have a good time, but as soon as they're at the back, like, yes, it's her bachelor bachelorette party. It's all about her. But she. If she was a true ally Of Rachel, she would have kept in mind, like, oh, there's this girl here that everybody else is going to, like, ignore, and I need to make sure she's comfortable. And, like, she just kind of leaves Rachel out there. I don't think it's. I want to put her in the enemy category, but I also want to put her in an ally because she never puts anything at risk to be Rachel's friend. The only time she truly kind of is there is when they go out to eat, when they first show up in Singapore, which is still the first quadrant. And so nothing's really at risk there, so. And I kind of feel the same way about Colin. The only time we see anything from Colin that matters is when he kind of forces Nick to, like, see, like, you can't just get out of this easily, right? Like, you can't just propose and everything's going to be fine.

I don't know. What do you think about that?

Yeah, I'm really glad that you brought that up because I definitely did have some questions about Minzy in the story. And I don't know if this was, like, an execution thing or if there's something that I'm just. Like, there was some subtle thing that I was not seeing. But I did wonder about Minzy generally, because. So at the beginning, right, like you said, when they're. When they first get to Singapore, super fun. She's, like, really sweet and she brings, like, the balloons for Rachel and she aims to welcome her. But like you said, at the bachelorette party. Okay, first off, when. Like, when the bachelorette party starts, she's a little unhinged. She's kind of crazy. She's like, spa day. And you're like, oh, my God. Right? And it's. This is, like, Minzy, who we see as being really cheerful in the first quadrant, is, like, on, like, cheerful on steroids there at that second quadrant of the bachelorette party. And it's very intense and. But she is, like, very much. She's a lot like the other girls. And then, like you said when. When. When Rachel finds the dead fish in her bed and, like, it's. It's Astrid who shows up to help her, right? It's. It. It was weird to me that, like, Mitzi is nowhere to be seen. And I don't know if that's, like. If we're meant to take something from it. If it was just, like, a light oversight in terms of, like, who. Minzy. You know, in terms of the film itself, but I definitely. And she's there at the end too, at the engagement party. So they are like, they are these old friends of Nick, but they are very like, at least Minzi is very much a product of her own world. So she isn't necessarily malicious to your point. Like, she's not an overt enemy. But yeah, if we're thinking about allies in terms of people who will take risks, you know, she invites Rachel to the party, so she does want to include her, but she definitely doesn't really go out on a limb for Rachel either. So that's. Minzy is one that I don't know how I'm supposed to feel about exactly. And that I am sort of like a little bit conflicted about as well. Colin, I think, is a little bit more clearly like, he. He loves Nick, he wants Nick to be happy. He's rooting for Nick and he does kind of level with him. He's like, man, listen, do you really think that it's just going to get easier because you guys get married and he's really. He is trying to look out for Nick, even if he still wants Nick to be happy. So, Colin, if you're a little bit more confident calling him an ally than Min, necessarily.

Yeah. You know, Menzie, the way the word I would describe her is just oblivious. Like, she's that product of that world of like, she. It's like she only knows conceptually that there's people that don't live like this. I don't think she's ever actually experienced it where, like, I think that's what adds that whole new. That. That like, balancing level to Astrid when she sees that child and she like, talks, you know, talks about the bear. And then she does all this.

Work, you know, helping people and charity work, where I do not think Menzies doing charity work. You know, like, likely when I wonder sometimes because for, you know, again, I haven't read the book Crazy Rich Asians, but I've read a lot of books that movies are based on. I think what happens sometimes is in the. In the porting over to a screenplay. You have to bring. You want to bring all the characters, but there's not always a place for them. Because as we were talking, I'm like, I wonder if she's much more fleshed out in the book, right? Where you have more space to kind of give everybody their full story. Where in the movie you kind of kind of just cram everybody in. And it would be hard to kind of get rid of her character since the whole inside the incident is this wedding that they've got to go to. And so, yeah, I wondered, you know, if it's just a product of, like, well, you know, you can't, like, flesh out every character in a movie the way that you can. Well, I shouldn't say that. I'm sure there's movies that have accomplished it, but it's much harder to do. All right, so let's look at the shape shifters. So who do you have down for shapeshifters?

I feel pretty confident saying that Amanda Ling is our primary shape shifter. And I suspect that you have an addition that you would like to add to the shapeshifter list.

Yeah, we talked about that already. But, yeah, I think she's definitely a shape shifter when she pretends to be one thing.

And I'm going to actually bring this up now because I want to talk about a little bit later, but I just don't love the way Nick is in this movie. I feel like it's not even that he's wishy, because at first I'm like, is it because he's wishy washy and he won't, like, stand up? And I'm like, it's almost because he. He doesn't really do anything in the whole movie. Like, he's kind of for his family. He's kind of for Rachel. He's kind of, you know, loves his cousins, but kind of annoyed. He's annoyed by them.

And then in this way, I feel like he's a bit of a shapeshifter where it's like, whoever he's around, that's who he is. And I also don't like it. The more I thought about it, the more it bothered me that he didn't. He didn't tell her before they left who his family truly was. Right. Like, that's a. That's a dick move. Like, to take your. Your girlfriend and drop her into this. Like, you know, not just a deep end, but like a, like, chasm without, like, getting her prepped for it, you know, that I think is a really dick move and selfish more than anything. Right. And so I feel like there's this level of like, again, I could just be reading into it because part of me is like, did they. They just. He never takes a stand on anything. Like, he makes that thing of like, oh, you know, I'll leave my family and be with you. I don't fucking buy it. Like, there's going to be a point where it's like, oh, wait, it was like, like I said, like, let him fly coach a couple times. And see how he likes it. And.

But that's, like, the only time he takes, like, a stand on anything. And so I just don't love his character anyway. And I. And I put him in the shapeshifter category because I feel like he's kind of waffling based on whoever he's with. You know, even with, you know, Colin when. When Colin's like, hey, it's not going to be that easy. And you can see him like, maybe I shouldn't get married to Rachel. You know, And I'm just like, what is going on with this guy? Like, is he going to take a stand against anybody? And he never even stands up to his mother. Like, she's the one, you know, and of course, she's the protagonist of the story. She is the one that has to. You know, it would not work if he stood up on her behalf, but it'd be nice if at the end he was like, hey, mom, what the fuck? You know.

So I just, like, I put him in shape Shifter. And then this was one of my critiques of the story, is I just don't love his character. I wish they had, like, done. It's almost like he's just bland oatmeal in the story. And. And the fact that we don't even know where he sits, right? Like, who is he in this story? That alone is, like, a problem that you can't figure out what category he would go in. Like, every other major player in this story, you're like, you didn't even mention him as an ally. You know, you said he's kind of a protagonist, right? Like, that alone is like.

Why can't we put him in an archetype when he's one of the major players in the. Every major character in the story fits one of these archetypes except for him.

Poor Oatmeal Nick. Maybe that's. Maybe. What the fuck, Mom? Maybe that's what he says in the silence, right? Maybe that just got cut and they were like, oh, well, he's been oatmeal this far. He needs to stay oatmeal to the end. So I have. I have just, like, a thought on this, and I think that what we are. So I don't think he's supposed to be a shape shifter now, if you're, you know, if that's what you're getting from him, like, oh, yeah, that's like, that's maybe a problem. And the fact that maybe we don't know where he sits is. Is a. An issue of Execution. I think what we're meant to understand about Nick is that he's conflicted. But I think, and this is something actually skipping ahead a little bit of, like, what writers can take away, but if you have a conflicted pro protagonist or character, generally make sure that it's really clear that they're conflicted and. And draw that line between conflicted and wishy washy. Right. That's a different kind of. We can be sympathetic to someone who is. Who doesn't quite know what to do, who feels out of their element, who is. Who is constantly trying to figure it out. But because maybe we don't necessarily see Nick actively trying to, like, keep the peace or find some way to kind of create ballads or harmony between the parties, maybe he comes across as wishy washy. So that's. I think that's probably a little bit of what we're seeing, is that he's meant to be conflicted, but it's sort of like Ms. Signaling as maybe wishy washy. And that's, like, extra problematic, not just because it's one of our primary characters, but it's the other member of the couple. And a romance can be. A romantic story can be hard to get on board with if you're like, ew, that guy. Like, really, Rachel, you should kick his ass to the curb and go find someone better. Jeez. And so that's like, something that you don't necessarily want to happen when you have a story that involves a couple. Ultimately, we'll get together at the end.

Yeah, because it's like this. I mean, in stories where. Or like, even in real life when, you know, these couple, like, we had these friends one time where the. The husband in their marriage showed up as this, like, very, like, like, knows what he wants, takes care of things, you know, all of that. And as soon as his mom would come to visit, it was like he would just let this woman just run over him and be mean to his wife, and he wouldn't stand in the gap for his wife, you know, like, all this kind of stuff. And, like, that's what I see here is there's never a point where he even, like, shows up for Rachel, like, even the point where she's like, they put a dead fish. And, like, it. You know, it wasn't just a dead fish. It was a gutted fish with, like, the intestines laying on her pillow. Right. If somebody did that to my wife, I would be like, burning something to the ground, you know, and he's just kind of like, okay, well, we'll have a good day today. We're going to go make dumplings. And it's like, he should be on the phone with Menzie. Like, what the fuck happened there? Why don't you take care of this? Like, you have got to tell these people to get under control. You know, it's like. And he's just kind of like, I'm just going to go to the next thing. It's like, do something. You can just tell Rachel, oh, you're making a big deal about it. It's not a big deal. At least we know where you stand. But it's like you never quite get a picture of, like, what is he thinking about what is happening other than, like, oblivious, you know.

Anyway. Yeah.

It just never know what's going on in that beautiful head of his.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

All right, so we're down to the last two archetypes. Let's look at the trickster. So who did you have for the trickster?

Yes. I think that Paik Lynn and Ollie are trickster characters. And I think Peik Lynn's family maybe kind of has this very like, trickster kind of.

Vibe. That's not a very precise word, but, you know, real trickster energy to them because they're so, first off, they're a comedic relief. And so that is often sort of a little bit of an indicator that we might be dealing with a trickster. But also they operate kind of outside of the rules of the world around them and. And yet manage to move inside of high society. And so they are kind of. You know, one of the things we mark about a trickster is that they are cunning, they're witty, and they can challenge the status quo. And I think that that's what Ali and Paiklin do is they sort of move in and out of these circles really effectively by being sort of their. Their very funny kind of quirky selves. And I think. So that's that I have them down as trickster characters because of the way that they navigate the environment.

Yeah, I had them and then the one I added was Bernard the cousin. They're like insane douchebag cousin because it's like, you know, he's the one like, throwing. Just throwing bombs into their plans. And so they. He does it with the bachelor party where Colin just wanted something quiet, and he like, takes him to this, like, crazy party on a ship. And then. And then even at the wedding, at the reception afterwards where like, he like, takes the girlfriend from his cousin and. And so I threw him in too but yeah, definitely character wise. Ali and Ali Bickland. All right, so what about the herald? I had Colin and we talked about that where like, he was basically saying, this is not going to work the way you think it's going to work. And then I had Picklin's family because they're the ones that are like, letting Rachel know, like, what she's about to get into is much bigger than what she thinks.

Then I'm assuming you're going to add her mother there as well, which I did not have.

Yeah, I actually, I did. You know, I didn't think to actually stick her in my, my physical formal list here. But you're right. And that the point being here, right, is that like multiple characters sort of act in this heraldic role for Rachel and Nick. So I have the exact same things. Paik Lynn, you know, helps her cross the threshold. She's also one who pushes Rachel into act three, right. With her new strategy, her kick ass game theory strategy. And then Colin and Rachel's mom as well. So, yeah, those are all the people I have who sort of at different times act as herald figures.

Awesome. All right, so that's the hero journey archetypes. So let's look at. So we're going to end the episode with kind of favorite story elements and what writers can take away. But before we get there, let's talk about.

Let's talk about the double factor problem. So this is something we use a lot at Story Grid. So tell us a little bit about what the double factor problem is.

Okay. I wrote because the double factor problem is necessarily complex. So I literally like sat down and I was like, if I had to write just a couple sentences about what the double factor problem is, how would I explain it? So the double factor problem, first off, true to the storyguard brand, we kind of look at it inside of a chart. So on the left hand, there's like a left hand column and you have two competing meets, and then at the top there are sort of two competing strategies, basically. Right. So there. So let me back up. The double factor problem is about. So it poses a problem and then it looks at the way you approach that problem. So we pose the problem as a question, and then the content of the table is about how you approach the problem and what the pros and cons are. So it's bigger than just a plot question. It's about how avatars are navigating this specific space. So the question itself is one that everyone is facing. So that means it has to be general enough to encapsulate all of the avatars or all of the characters in the story. And then the options for dealing with it are two mutually exclusive but also equally valid ways of answering that question. And what determines whether or not it's the right way to answer that question is the context of the situation, which is why it's important that both ways of dealing with it are equally valid. It is context dependent. And then the two needs that go in the left column are the conflicting needs, which are also both equally valid. Right. There's a time for. There's a time for external validation, There's a time for internal validation. And those two needs are the. They're based in our genres that we've selected. And each avatar is trying to meet and trying to weigh against each other those needs. And that's what makes the problem so complex. Both needs are important, and each way of getting that need and answer to the double factor problem question is valid. But how to do that and which need to prioritize will vary from context to context and about how you actually go about doing that.

Yeah, this is one of those concepts that was hard for me to wrap my head around for a long time. And just from what we've seen in the story grid community is often hard for people to wrap their head around. And for me, the thing that finally got me to understand it really, it's a lot of just looking at your own life where.

You know, if you pose a problem, if you pose a question, if you pose a question like, what is two plus two? It's like, well, that's. It's always for, like, it does not matter on the context. It's always four. But most questions in life are context dependent, right? And so, like a really kind of simple example would be like, okay, are you supposed to lie? Right? And it's like, well, it's right there in the Ten Commandments in the Bible, right? Thou shalt not lie, right? So lying is bad. Okay, well, what about if somebody comes to your door at night with a gun and says, is anybody else in the house and your kids are asleep upstairs, is it okay to lie? And if you say, no, you're. You're not somebody I want to have in my life, right? You know, so it's like this idea of like, should you lie? Is a context dependent question. It depends on what's happening around you. And this is the thing that makes life so hard is all of those gray areas, right? Most questions that matter are not black and white. They are context dependent. And so when we're looking at a problem in a double factor problem, right. A single factor problem is it's. It's binary. What makes a double factor is the table you just described of the needs and the two conflicting needs and two conflicting ways to go about trying to get those neat. So that's what double factors the problem is you have, you know, two columns and two rows, which means you're not going to get everything that you want. Right? So if I'm somebody that is really like, I want to tell the truth, telling the truth all the time is super important to me. Not lying is important to me. And then I'm faced with the problem of needing to lie to protect my family. I'm going to lose something, right? I'm either going to lose my family or I'm going to lose this, like, internal status of somebody that always tells the truth. So when we're looking at.

A good story, always has a double factor problem because that's what creates all of the conflict in the story is the person trying to get what they needed. What. And not being able to get both of them at the same time. And you're trying to, like, figure out, well, how am I going to get. That's what the protagonist is struggling with, is how. How am I going to get what I want? Right. And so that's where, you know, so what I had for the double factor problem for crazy rich Asians is when do you conform to the expectations of others? And when do you stand in your difference of who you are? And so this is where. And what I love about this is if you have a double factor problem.

That is clearly you should always do one of the questions. You don't have a double factor problem. Right. Because there are actual good times to conform to the expectations of others. Right. And then there's times where you shouldn't in trying to navigate. That is.

What creates all of the conflict in this story. Right. Is Rachel trying to navigate between trying to conform while also trying to maintain her difference in who she is as a person?

So do you want me to go into what I have for the double factor? Because I made the whole chart and I didn't know if you wanted me to systematically read what I have in there or what the best way to do this is because I have the whole saver fills out.

Yeah. I started to fill out the table, and then I'm like, I don't want to, like, overly complicate it when we can't show people what, like, yeah, point to it on the screen. So I would just say, like, I have, I have a list of like, the good and bad of conforming and the good of bad of trying to be different. So I think just kind of walking through, like, okay, like, give example, just talk about it more just kind of conversationally than try to like systematically get people to see it in their head. Because it'd be hard to do that.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. I was like trying to explain it and I was like, okay, picture a chart in your head. Okay, okay, perfect. I can do that.

Yeah. So the two values, right, that we have, again, based in our genres, and this is what's really cool about this particular story. So society, right, that external need is for like external recognition. And that's pitted against that need for internal sort of sense of self respect. And then for our two options, right? I have, I pulled from, from the story itself. I sort of generally titled these two options as sacrifice for your family. But what I really mean is integrate, right? That's really what I'm getting at. Or pursue your passions. That's another one of the themes that kind of regularly comes up. And then again, more broadly, this is about differentiation. And so on the one hand, right, sacrificing for your family or integrating, that can sort of establish you in a position, in a position that has external esteem within the identity. And it's worth noting, right, like you said, there is a time to integrate. Like, we, as humans, we thrive in groups. We should, we have group identities. And those are really important. But then if you sort of over index on that.

External esteem, that external recognition in your sort of like your group identity, you can potentially, you can do a couple things. You can promote tyranny, which is what we see in, in the young household, what I would sort of broadly domestic tyranny, we'll say. But you also can lose opportunities to have external esteem in other areas, right? Eleanor gave up law in order to like, lay everything down for her family. So she also sort of, she, she sacrificed one type of external esteem for another. And then on the far end, and here's something important about double factor problems, whether you're analyzing or creating, remembering that all avatars should be representative of a way of dealing with this double factor problem. So on the far end of pursuing exclusively external esteem, we have good old cousin Eddie, who is perfectly esteemed. He looks perfect on the outside, but really, right, lacks internal substance, right? And so much so that even the family is like, yeah, we don't want to leave the money to that guy. Like, nobody wants that guy in charge.

Right.

And so this is where you see sort of like that far extreme of pursuing external esteem. And then on the other hand, right, differentiating, you can find these sort of other. You can find different forms of external esteem in pursuing professional attainments, but it can alienate you from your tribe. And that's what we see with Rachel's mom and Nick as well. Right. He sort of is pursuing to differentiate, but then it, it starts to alienate him from his family. Right. Because he's been in America, he didn't want to come back and now his family is like, ew, you've changed. We don't know who this guy is, but we're not super, not super fond of whatever's happening. Right?

Yeah. I would throw the other cousin in there.

Alistair or Alistair, Yes, I had him in there.

Actress. Right. Because it's like he's. That's what I liked about Eddie and him kind of juxtaposed against each other is they're both doing. They're both doing a crass version of the job. Right? So you have, like you said, you have one that's fully conformed and everything lives and dies on conformity. And then you have somebody that completely went the other way. And, and that's again, this was again, one of the, like, things that took me a while to wrap my head around, but once I finally did, it was like this really big light bulb moment for me is it's like if you're. If there's a character in your book that is not clearly dealing with this double factor problem, you need to cut them from your book. Right? And this is why we have problems with somebody like Minzy because it's like, is she really dealing with the double factor problem? Right. Is Colin really dealing with the double factor problem? Like, and even Nick himself, right. Is he really dealing with it? But where you see some of these characters like Astrid and, and her husband and Pick Lynn and like all of these people are like, like, if you look at somebody like Picklin, like you said, they kind of do their own thing, but. But they're still a family. They still. It's done in this correct way where you look at Alistair and it's like he throws off all, all conformity and you're like, well, I don't want to be like that, you know? And that's what's so important is again, you should never be able to easily choose a side on a double factor problem. Right? We should never. We're not going to say. And I think, you know, this is my American culture of like, I would never conform to everything. But also, it's like, well, I shouldn't also just always differentiate. You know, it's almost like, you see these people who. They're like, I choose what I believe based on what other people. The opposite of what other people believe. Right. You don't even think they believe it. They're just like, I'm. My. My role in this world is to be different. And it's like, do you even believe what you're saying? You know.

So. Yeah, and I. But I, you know, I think that, you know, when. When I'm looking at conformity to standing out, and it's like, well, at the same time, like, Rachel should conform to a certain extent. Right. Like, she needs to show respect. She's not in her homeland. She's in somebody else's house. Like, showing respect. Also, by conforming to other people's cultures, you're going to learn things you've never learned before. You're going to see things through their eyes. You're going to be able to empathize with them in a way that you've never been able to get. Never been able to do. If you don't do that. Right. And again, we've seen this before. We're like, somebody comes into a culture that is set and they want to try to differentiate before first understanding why the culture is the way it is. Because it is that way for a reason, not random. Right. And you can disagree with it, but you need to understand it before you decide whether or not you disagree with it.

Yeah, exactly. And what you're really pinpointing there is that all of the avatars in the space, in the context we are seeing cautionary and prescriptive ways of dealing with this double factor problem in this context. So Eddie. Yep. Don't want to be like that guy. And this goes kind of back to your point about Sam, that we're presenting to someone specifically, which means that there is a distinct tone. So Eddie is presented as someone that you don't want to be like. Right. He is made to look ridiculous because he's ridiculous. Alistair is sort of the opposite version of ridiculous. And you also don't quite want to go that far on the end of the spectrum. And then you have all these people in between. And Astrid is also a really great example because there's, on one hand, right to your point, having a tribal like. Tribal as in, like, you know, family affiliation and in your group identities. Having a group identity can promote that internal sense of self as well. But then if you over index on that, on that identity in terms of self respect, we see this with Astrid where she ends up diminishing herself, right. In an effort to integrate in her relationship with Michael, she hides her success. She doesn't, you know, advertise how good she is at the things that she does. And so ends up actually sort of tamping down her sense of self respect in favor of sort of integrating in their little family microcosm. Right. And then, and then on the flip side, right, differentiating is also a way to get that internal sense of self, but you can also over index on that one as well. Right. And I think that the overindulgence of sort of one's passions is also meant to be seen as. That's also not. That also doesn't promote self respect. Right. So when we see the bachelor and bachelorette parties, those are also intentionally presented as ridiculous because this sort of no holds barred, like just full overindulgence of what you want is, is ridiculous. And it's. And it's. And they are also people who lack substance. And so we see everywhere we look, or like every Rachel looks, right, she's seeing all of these different ways that you can be. And there are people who you should be like, and there are people who you shouldn't be like. And that's what we really get when we have all avatars participating in the double factor problem.

Yeah. And I like, I really like the. I think the Pick Lynn and all, all of our characters are really important because the Pick Lynn characters are kind of like, we do our own thing and, you know, fuck everybody else, but we're still like living in society where, you know, Oliver is kind of forced to. He's almost like, like kind of like created his own little space inside of this very oppressive world. Right? So he's homosexual. And you know, there's like this vague kind of like, you know, people know, but they don't love it. But they're like, ah, that's Ollie. And then like, he's kind of found his space of like, this is who I am in this tribe that allows me to also be who. Who I truly am. Right? And so that's where I'm like, you look at him and he was born into this very kind of tough situation where he is different than them. And he's going to have to deal with that. But he's done a really good job navigating that where it's like, this is who I am. I serve this purpose. Which allows me to stay in my tribe, but also still be me. And so I really liked the way you kind of have the pickling character that just breaks out and you can. I mean, you can just see it by the way she looks and the way she dresses and her blonde hair. And then you have him who looks like he fits, and he's done a really. And he's done that on purpose. Right. And so he can sit at that table and make dumplings and be accepted for who he is, but because he has found his way that he fits into the tribe, it's like, it's almost like, you know, if you're working at a company and you almost, like, create your own position in the company, you know, you don't like, really fill a position that's currently open. You're just like, this needs to be done. You should hire me to do this. You know.

That'S almost what it feels like he's done is he's created a position that allows him to conform and differ at the same time. And so that is where I think, you know, everybody, you know, the, The. The writer did a really good job showing us all the different ways and all the different results of conforming and differing and dealing with that double factor problem.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's honestly, like, that's one of the things that. And if I can move slightly topically, that's one of the things that I have in my. Some of my favorite story elements is, is that specifically that I think that the writer did a really great job of creating a cast of characters who are relating to the double factor problem in their own way. And so that. That creates unique characters, but characters who are relevant or who are unique in relevant ways. So it's not like they just have like some quirk or mannerism. And it's like, okay, that's just how they are. That's the thing that makes them different. But they're. They're unique in that the way that they are engaging. The double factor problem tells us so much about them and also makes them all distinct from each other.

Yeah, yeah. Well, let's. Because actually, one of the things I have in my favorite story elements goes to kind of our final topic, which is what can writers take away from this story? So let's talk about that. You know, what do you think? Like, as a writer looking at crazy rich Asians, maybe I don't want to write a status plot or a rom com or whatever, but what can I learn looking at a story like crazy rich Asians? That I can apply to my own writing.

Yeah. So I have a big, like, a big thing that I want to say about marketing genre. I've been sitting on this for like a whole episode and I'm like, I got to talk about the marketing genre. As if I haven't already talked about it enough because you keep hearing me say, because it's a rom com, X, Y and Z. I'm about to talk about it a little bit more. So I want to clarify something because I think occasionally in storygrid, sometimes it can sound like we're down on marketing genre because marketing genres tend to be a little bit on the vague side or, you know, with the ideas that we have between the genre. Five leaf clover and content genres is nice, specific and actionable. But I don't want to be too down on marketing genres because those are also important. If you would like to sell your book to an audience, then your marketing genre is pretty important because you want to put yourself in the right market in the right place. And so what I love about crazy rich Asians is that.

Crazy rich Asians innovates in the rom com marketing genre because of the use of content genres. And content genres are a great way to innovate in your marketing genre. So rather than going classic courtship tale, the writers. So it was adapted for the screen by Peter Chiarelli and Adele Lim, and the original book was written by Kevin Kwan. I don't know, again, as much about the book as I know about the movie, so I've not read the book. But basically what they did was take a story about family dynamics and belonging. Those are where content genres play in. And they wrap it in this really fun, really romantic rom com package. And I. There's, there's a few ways that they pulled this off. And this is what's important because rom com, right? So romantic. So it does pull from love story elements, even without being a central love story. So thing number one is that the conflict, right, is central to the couple. And so we, we're not necessarily wondering whether Nick and Rachel will stay together, but it does directly affect them as a couple. And then we also have really important conventions that we get from a classic love story. So there are helpers and harmers. We see other families, which includes like a. A coupling of like, you know, mom and dad at the head of the family, representing different types of relationships. Our lovers break up and we get proof of love on each side. I know you're like a little bit like iffy on Mick, like a proof of love Whatever. But right. We get something that resembles a proof of love, at least for Rachel and maybe for Nick. And we also have the very romantic context of a wedding celebration. And so what happens is it creates a feeling of romance, which is something that we want from a ROM com and it's something that we get with a love story. And so without which it wouldn't have been satisfactory. Right. As a ROM com. And so this is. We create the ROM com atmosphere while changing sort of the plot substance to create a deep story about family and about sort of that sense of personal value. And that created a really great innovation inside of that marketing genre. So that's. Marketing genre is important and content genres are important and are a great way to innovate. Which is the TLDR version.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I had something similar, I think, in that same realm down. And as somebody, you know, I've been in book marketing for a really long time. And I do agree, like those marketing genres are really important because you're signaling to the audience what they can expect. So my favorite example is the, is the, the phrase young adult. Right? Young adult is not a genre in the sense that you have no idea what the story is about. What young adult is, is a PG13 rating. That's what it is, right. And it's. And if you look at movies, it's like they'll take certain movies and they'll take out like the F word or like certain amount of violence to get it down to PG13 because they know there's the audience, there's a wider audience that they can get to come see this movie if they keep that PG13 rating. Right. It's kind of, you know, most of the Marvel movies sit right there, right. And you're going to lose a segment of the population once you go up to that R rating. And you know, when we look at something like, you know, the crowd that's going to go see crazy rich Asians is quite different than the crowd that's going to show up for John Wick.

And so weirdly, you and I both are in those crowds, which I think is great.

We're in that Venn, Venn diagram overlap. So what I loved about this that I think writers can take away is that if you look at most status stories, they are not that commercially successful. Right. They tend to have a lower audience. So even the, you know, I always try to talk about this when I talk about marketing is like compare the most successful documentary to like a mid level success thriller movie. Right. It's not even Close, like the amount of money you can make. And I talk about this when I talk to people that are writing poetry, they're like, can I still be successful? I'm like, well, it depends on what you compare yourself to. If you're comparing yourself to other poetry books. Yes. If you're comparing yourself to, like, the latest thriller from, you know, whatever fuck all that's writing it, it's like, it's not even in the same ballpark. And so.

So I think it's what I really loved about this that I think was super innovative, like you talked about, but looking purely from a commercial standpoint is they took this really important double factor problem, right? This really important thing that we need to be talking about of when, you know, showing people when to conform and when to differentiate. And they. But if they had just made it like that. Like, one of the notes I have is like, what if Awkwafina and her family were in this movie? Like, there were some comedic elements, but they were 90% of the comedy that made it fun, right? I mean, I think my favorite moment in the movie is when she opens up the. Her front, the front, the trunk, and there's like three outfits ready to go. And one of them is walk of shame, right? Like, I was roaring the first time I saw that. The fact that she just has those in there ready to roll, you know.

So I love that they took this really important double factor problem, a status genre story that would not be commercially successful on the level that Crazy Rich Asians was, without wrapping it in the ROM com, right? Once you wrap it in the ROM com, you're playing at a whole nother level of success when you're looking at romantic comedies versus super serious status stories, right? Or society stories.

So I think that's really important if you're writing. If you.

A lot of times writers get really kind of.

Like. They kind of get this feeling of like, well, I'm, you know, I'm trying to write something important, so I don't care about the commercial success. And it's like, well, if you're writing something important, why wouldn't you try to get it out to as many people as possible? If it's super important and 12 people read it, how much of a difference are you really making other than, like, I don't know, some bullshit story you're telling yourself about what it means to be a writer? And so what I love about this is, it's like, hey, you know, you can take something. A really important double factor problem. Something that you really cares about. But you also know, man, you know, this isn't going to be a popular story. And this movie proves that you can wrap that in something that is commercially successful that a lot of people will love. And here's, here's the thing that I think stands out is most people that watch the movie did not consciously consider when do I conform and when do I differentiate? But their minds got shifted on the subject, right? Like there, there are people that watched, that watch crazy rich Asians, and now they're standing up for themselves in their marriage in a way they never have before. Right. Like that stuff actually happens. And so that's what I loved about this is. And this is almost, you know, like, again, you know, I just totally, I totally missed it, right? Like, I'm like, this is a love story and here's all the things about Love story. And I, like, was totally glossing over what it was actually about.

And I just think that's really important for somebody for you, you know, for writers to think about is not just like, pick your problem. Like, that is important. Like, I don't think you should just randomly pick a double factor problem because you think it will be commercially successful. Like, you have to. It has to be important to you. But you can also do it in a way that's commercially viable. And, and that's what I loved about this is like this writer is like, did this in this way where it was like this, like this, you know, this Trojan horse. You know, it's like wrapped it in a rom com. But it was this really powerful message that you normally wouldn't get in a romantic comedy.

Yeah. And I, you know, something I think too, that was so, like, it's just so pro. Right. Is that it was a romantic comedy and they did the comedy without it feeling like subversive or like a tone of like mocking. Right. So it's not a comedy of like a comedy of foibles where it's like, oh, look how silly this family is and look how ridiculous. But instead it took just like you said, this really important idea, this really important problem, this really important.

This really important idea, Right. Again, if like family and belonging, that's something that matters to all of us and did it in a way that was lighthearted and meaningful both and not moving on. These comedies exist as well, these sort of subversive comedies, but actually making it comedic and not subversive, but then also so that you get this really, really great messaging in a very fun, in a very exciting way. And like you said, then Also very commercially successful, which means a lot of people got to experience that story. I. A lot of people got to think about how they relate to their families and their family dynamics and their sense of self, even at that unconscious level, and walked out of that story. Right. Feeling really good and really empowered, which I think is pretty awesome.

Yeah. So what else did you have that writers could take away from this?

Those are my two big points. It was, like, cast of characters and marketing genre, and I was like, these are, like, the. Apparently the two things I would like to just really bang on about. And that's what I've got.

All right, I got a couple more.

Okay, go ahead.

So one of the things I loved about this is. And again, this is one of those things when, like, you are analyzing it, you don't really notice it in the moment, but when you're analyzing it, you're like, oh, this whole Astrid and her husband take up a decent amount of screen time, right? And I'm like, okay, why is that in there? Like, what did this subplot add to the story? And I'm like, oh, it's the cautionary version of Rachel's story, right? Like, it is. We have Eleanor, who's the cautionary character, but you actually get to see what will play out if she doesn't deal with this the right way before getting married, which is she will resent him. Right. She will grow to resent the fact that she is forced into this life. She didn't actually understand what she was getting into. And that's what you see happening in between Astrid and her husband is he did not clearly understand what he was getting into and have the. The fortitude as a person to withstand what he was about to step into. And what happened is, is he got crushed underneath it. And. And it was really. And then you see this, like, loving act that Astro is trying to do, but not in a way that's actually helpful. Like, it's actually harming her and not helping, which is like, okay, I'm going to diminish myself. Like, my husband is thinking less of himself, so I'm going to diminish myself to come down to his level. And all it does is make it worse, right? And we could see Nick doing that, right? Like, we could see Nick, like, he loves Rachel, and so it's like, I'll just diminish myself to come down to her. And again, that just creates worse problems. And so.

And. And so I really. I really loved, like, this idea of, like, okay, if you're going to have A subplot. Make sure you're doing it in a way that is not. It's not the same story as the main protagonist. Right. If that was the same story would be kind of like, why are they telling me this story? Like, again, that would be one of those things at the end, you would sense, like, you'd be like, wait, something was off. I didn't really like that. I didn't really like that whole Astro and Michael storyline. That was kind of stupid. Where in this. It's like. It's. You're watching, like. And you're watching it through the protagonist's eyes of. This is what it will look like. This is because everybody else in that world is from that world except for Rachel and Michael. Right. And Michael is what it looks like down the road. So if you're going to add a subplot to your story, it needs to. It needs to. I mean, that would be something to look at is like, how can you tell the cautionary version of your prescriptive tale with the subplot?

Yeah, that's a great point. I'm so. I'm curious, Tim, did that, because you mentioned that your work in progress, part of it is like a marriage plot. And so I'm wondering, you know, having watched this, and even though this story isn't necessarily a. It's not a courtship tale. And then we kind of kicked around you, right. You thought about maybe it's a marriage plot because the relationship gets tested. I wonder, did you pull anything from those parts of this story that sort of helped you when you were thinking about the marriage plot for your own story?

Well, I mean, one of the things. I wouldn't say I learned it from this, but it was. Maybe this is why I had such a problem with Nick, is when. When I went over. So how. I can't remember if I've talked about this on the podcast, but Leslie and I planned out my whole story. So I wrote a first draft, had one of those, like, crazy spiritual moments where I was, like, driving to work one morning, and the story just, like, dropped on me, you know? And then I'm like, call Sean. I'm like, what do I do? And he's like, just write it as fast as you can. Right? So I just. It was like 42,000 words. I just banged it out over eight weeks, and it does not work. Right. But I was just trying to get down everything that had dropped on me in that moment. And so Sean was like.

Sean was like, okay, well, you got a good ball of clay here. He didn't look at or anything. But I, you know, I had been telling him about it. He's like, so work with Leslie to go through the narrative path and kind of map it out and then pitch me the story when you're ready. So when I pitch it to him, he loved it. Which, again, was weird because it was like my. The first, you know, the first draft of the story that he'd heard and he approved it. But he's like, the one problem is the wife character in the story is too perfect. She's one dimensional. You have to make. Give her a flaw. Right. And so, again, this is part of the problem that I have with Nick and Rachel's. You know, there should. If you want to have a love story, there's got to be some sort of love and hate, even if it's not the out front. And theirs is just kind of like, me through the whole thing. And.

So, yeah, no, mine is. I don't want to get into talking about my own story, but it was more of, like.

Looking at this. And again, the thing I've been looking at a lot in stories is that every character has to deal with the double factor problem, and they have to be giving the protagonist a different way to deal with it. So your enemies are dealing with it in a way that you shouldn't be dealing with it, and the allies are dealing with it in a way that you should. Like, this is why I think Picklin and Oliver are allies, is they have figured out the double factor problem for themselves.

So, yeah, but. So I don't have a subplot in mind, but that did stand out to me of, like, if you're going to have a subplot, make it a. Make it an opposite of the main storyline. And then just a couple of other things that stood out to me. Like, I love that they opened with the poker game and closed with the mahjong game. Right. So it was this opening, you know, this opening and closing of this. And again, seeing how she took who she is and. And integrated it into this new world. Right. So they weren't playing poker at the end, they were playing mahjong at the end. And I think that's interesting. That's kind of like the beagle puppy at the beginning of John Wick and the pit bull at the end. And I also think it was really interesting. I think this is another good example of write what you know. Right. So the person who wrote this obviously understands this culture. Like, they may not. They may have, like, you know, I don't I don't know the author. I haven't researched the author. Maybe they haven't run in those super rich, but they definitely understand the Asian culture in Singapore. Because there was this point where I'm like, why did they have Eleanor at, like, a Bible study at the beginning of the story? Like, that's kind of strange. And so I looked it up, and it's like, Christianity is pretty predominant in Singapore, and it's like, you wouldn't necessarily know that if you didn't know the culture. And there's all these, like, nods to the culture that make it. That one is interesting to me because I don't know anything about the culture, but it, like, grounds it in reality, you know. And so this is, again, write what you know is one of those really kind of vague examples that writers throw out all the time. And most of the time they don't even know what they mean by it. But it's like the. The writer took again, this double factor problem, you know, they want to talk about, you know, this double factor problem of when to conform and when to differentiate. And it's like they. They dropped it in a culture that they know really, really well, which means it's going to feel real even to people that don't understand it. And this is where, like, science people that write science fiction and fantasy do this in such interesting ways, is how can you make. You know, I just watched the movie Dungeons and Dragons, and it's like the movie felt real, even though obviously it's not real. And so. And it is because of, like, it, like, was grounded in this understanding of, like, how, you know, the writer is writing about something they know really, really well. And it was also interesting watching it. A buddy of mine watched it that is big into D and D. I'm relatively new to it. And he's like, man, there were so many, like, little inside jokes and, like, all these kind of things. And even that was the way. I don't want to get too much into it. But like, the movies, Dungeons, I was telling my wife about this yesterday. The movie was Dungeons and Dragons, right? There has to be a dragon at some point, and you're expecting kind of this typical dragon. And they set it up that way. There's like this dark cave, and then there's like this big breath. You're like, oh, this is the dragon. The dragon comes out and it's like this insanely obese dragon, like, overly fat. It can barely fly. At one point, it falls, and it's like rolling down the hill sideways because it can't. It's so fat, it can't stop. And so it adds this whole, like, twist on, like, it's still the same thing where they're running from it and it's breeding fire and they're, like, trying to get away. And there's all these, like, progressive complications as they try to get away. But there's like. It's so funny because it's like, you did not expect this, like, fat dragon that, like, barely can hold itself aloft, you know, like, coming after them anyway. But again, that. Man, this is. This is what we talked about with John Wick, we've talked about with this. I'll mention it here, too. The reason they're able to innovate is they know the genre so well. The people that wrote that Dungeons and Dragons, I guarantee you have spent thousands of hours playing Dungeons and Dragons. And so they knew everything. And so they knew how to twist the conventions. And like, again, a dragon and a fantasy tale, like, this is a convention. You got to have a dragon. There was no dragon. You'd be like, where the fuck was the dragon? And then they do it in this crazy way that's so amazing. That's one of the highlights of the film. So, yeah, so this. Write what you know, and understanding that you can fit, you can take what you know and. And tell any double factor problem in that same context. You just have to know it well enough to make it feel real.

Yeah. And I think, you know, you're. You've just hit on, like, some, like, key. Like some great, like, key story growth stuff, right? So for starters, knowing your genre, right? Be like, because you were talking about Quentin Tarantino, and I love listening to Quentin Tarantino talk. This is way earlier, but. So it sounds like a pivot, but it's not. Quentin Tarantino loves movies. And so when you hear him talk about movies and when he makes movies, he is bringing the combination of that love and that expertise and those thousands of hours that he has spent watching movies, studying movies, studying the greats, right? All of this stuff, he brings that to his movies. And I think that, you know, whether you. Whether you like Tarantino's movies stylistically or not, it's really clear that he knows and loves his. His medium. So that's thing number one, right? You gotta do your masterworks. And it really helps if you love the genre that you're in. So pro tip, maybe write something that you really like yourself. And then the second thing, right, is that that reality genre, and that's why that leaf Is. Is actually such. It seems kind of innocuous. You're like, is that a fantasy? Is that a science fiction? Is it real? Like, and it seems kind of innocuous, but it's actually. Right. You think about this is going to help you narrow in the context where you're exploring that double factor problem. And that, you know, to your point, the author and the screenplay adapters and writers positioned the story in a very real environment and brought to it all of the details of that environment that they know and made it really come alive for people who are people who are familiar with the culture and people like you and me, who are not as familiar with the culture. And so that. That. Taking that reality genre or the case of Dungeons and Dragons, right. Knowing what those features are, posing that double factor problem inside of that. Inside of that context, and then using the features of that context to participate in the story and in innovating that story. And then the third thing is the. Oh, right, Double factor problem.

Just a little pro tip that I like the way that I like to think about the double factor problem. And I was just talking with a student about this from the guild. The double factor problem is you can think of it as basically a way more actionable way to break down theme. Because we talk about theme. We talk about, in lots of writing advice and writing circles is about, you know, finding your theme and exploring a theme. And it's like you can. You can read something that explores a theme, and it's just like hammering you with it, like, constantly. And it's like they're like banging a drum, like, this is the theme of the story. And you're like, okay, we get it. Like, thank you, but no, thank you. And what the double factor problem does is it allows you to create that cast, to pose that question and then explore it all throughout the story in a really actionable way. Because it allows you to think about what it is that you want to explore and then to do it in multiple different ways so that you still get a cohesive theme without having to just, like, absolutely, like, you know, again, like, bang your reader's head into it. And so it makes it a really nice way to think about your theme, to build your theme, and then explore it in your story.

Yeah. You know, when you were talking, I started thinking about, you know, one of the obligatory moments.

One of the obligatory moments in, like, action is the speech and praise of the villain. Right. And this is the chance for us to see everything from the villain's point of view. Right. And. And one of the rules is you should be able to sympathize with the villain, right? You should be able to like, see, like, okay, yeah, I see where they're coming from, right? And that's like, that is. It's almost like we've always looked at one spoke of this double factor problem, which is like, if you can't do that, right, because your antagonist is trying to solve the double factor problem in the opposite way that the protagonist comes to solve it, right? And so if you can't truly understand the antagonist point of view, then you are not. You are beating a theme. You're not presenting a double factor problem, right? And we see, I mean, we. You can see, I mean, probably the most crass example is like anybody talking about politics on television, right? Like the, the. Any concession that the other side has a point is never done, right? No matter what side you're on. And it's like, this is why, this is why we're not getting anything done. But it's like. And this is why I always feel so odd because have you seen oh Brother, Where Art Thou? Have you seen that movie?

Yes, it's so good.

Yeah, yeah. So.

So I always think of this moment when George Clooney's. When they're arguing over who's in charge, right? So George Clooney, his character's like, I'm voting for yours truly. You know, and then Pete's like, I'm voting for yours truly. And they look at the third guy and he looks at them and he goes, I'm with you fellas. And like, that's what I feel all the time. Because it's like, I'll hear one side. And I mean, I mean to really bring the mood down, you know, we had the school shooting here in Nashville last week, and that's been like pervasive and everything happening. You know, it's literally 10 minutes from my house, five minutes from my kids school. My son knew, you know, one of the kids that died. And it's like, you see everybody immediately start polarizing and looking at every other side and refusing to see each side. And it's like, this is why stories are so important. If they're done right is they present both sides and they're like, you have, you have to respect, like in this, in this movie, you have to respect what Eleanor did. Like, she made a, a decision that we probably don't agree with, but we understand why she did it. And she got a lot because of it, right? Like, she got Nick because of making that decision, and he's you know, kind of oatmeal. But he seems like a fine guy. But no, like, you know, you can look at it and be like, she made a really tough decision for a really good reason, even if it's different from the decision we think she should have made. And so that's what makes a great antagonist is it's like they have a point like they have and not just like a thin, one dimensional point. They have a well thought out solution to the problem that they've been enacting and it's gotten them a lot and it's helped. Like these are those stories of like tyranny where it's like somebody's in charge. They're like, we have to have order. Every, every, otherwise chaos reigns and everybody, everything falls apart. And you're like, yeah, that's true. You know, so yeah, it's as you were talking about the double factor problem. Like, that's where that speech and praise of the villain is so important. Because if you don't do that, right, if you don't create your antagonist in the right way, then the whole thing kind of falls apart and it becomes a, it becomes a sermon instead of a posing of a question.

Absolutely. Yeah, that's a great point.

Thanks for listening to this episode of the StoryGrid podcast. As I mentioned at the beginning, if you would like to Download the complete StoryGrid analysis of Crazy Rich Asians, you can visit storygrid.com crazy. Also make sure you visit storygrid.com to check out all of our free resources and articles. If you'd like to support the show, you can do that by telling another author about the show or by visiting us at Apple Podcast and leaving a rating and review. Thanks, as always for being a part of our Story Grid community. We will see you next week.