Getting the Rewrites Right

Hello, and welcome to the Story Grid podcast. This is a show dedicated to helping you become a better writer. I'm your host, Tim Grall, and I am a struggling writer trying to figure out how to tell a story that works. Joining me shortly is Sean Coyne. He is the creator of Storygrid, the author of the book Storygrid, and an editor with over 25 years experience in this episode. Well, we keep looking at my rewrites. I figure at some point all of you are going to get tired of this, but, you know, you keep listening, and so we just keep diving deeper into the book. So we go over another rewrite of the same scene, and we also dive into just some bigger questions I have about how to rewrite these scenes correctly, how to do it the right way, maybe on the third time. And we talk about also just laying out the rest of the beginning hook. So I hope you enjoy it. Let's jump in and get started. So, Sean, I went back into my little writing hole and took this scene and rewrote it with your feedback and actually ended up expanding into two scenes. And before you kind of give me your feedback, I wanted to tell you what I was thinking through it. So the first scene was the one where you, you know, it's. It started off like, two or three drafts ago as, like, them sitting and having coffee in 83, just telling Jesse how the world was different.

Right.

And then you talked about, okay, let's make it action oriented. So I did that where they're going out into the world and you actually see the world as she's learning about it. But when I wrote it that way, I kind of got to the end of the scene and it just fizzled out because I couldn't figure out where I was going. So we talked about ending it. And, you know, we could have ended it moving from uninformed to inform, but we decided to do safe to unsafe. And so that's where, you know, the plug comes undone and the old lady, like, wakes up in the bed and attacks Jesse. And so we. I ended it with a cliffhanger. And then the second scene, you know, starts with the end of the previous scene where Jesse's fighting her off and 83 saves her. And we have all of this in the show notes, if you want to take a look. But I struggled with this second scene because it, like, you know, so, you know, 83 saves her, and then they're cleaning up, and then I basically have to, like, do something with this scene, and I need to get it to the Point where, you know, the following scene is when Jesse basically runs away and tries to go back home. Yeah. So I was trying to do something that. Because we just had this super adrenaline thing and I. Something more. You know, this one, I tried to move from uninformed to inform. So I was trying to think, like, okay, she was just physically attacked. And now I'm trying to make sure, like, really up the dial of what Jesse's gotten herself into by, like, basically saying what the sentencing really was, like, making Jesse realize how long she's committed to this thing. And I just struck, like. I worked on it like three or four times because I felt like it was just this kind of filler scene. And then what I've realized with both of the scenes is once I've worked on something three or four times, I have no idea what it is anymore because in my head, I've got like four or five different versions of this that my brain can't tell apart.

Right.

Think about the scene. And so when I read it, I can't read it fresh. I'm reading it with all this other stuff in my head. So I can no longer tell if it's any good or not or if it's even makes sense. So anyway, that's where I'm at. I just wanted to get that out there because once you give your feedback, I didn't want that to get lost in the woods. But that's where I was. I was kind of at with it.

Okay, well, I'm gonna. I'm gonna give you some really good news to start with. Both scenes work okay? And both scenes are absolutely pushing your story forward in a way that is consistent with the theme of your genre, which is thriller. Which is thriller coming of age. So, you know, the global genre. I want to take one step back here because your confusion is completely understandable because what you're doing right now is you're mired in the minutia of the story itself. So you're dealing scene by scene right now. And I think what makes you personally, Tim. Comfortable is big picture. You know, the big picture view. And when you start to get deeper and deeper into the. Into the minutia, you get a little bit panicky. And that's. That's fine because a lot of people, it's the other way around, they feel more comfortable in the minutia and don't like to go global. That's actually more prevalent than what you're experiencing. But I'll tell you what the really good news here is, is that because you have been so concentrated on the value shifts of your scenes and making sure that they're consistent with the overall inciting incident and global, you know, external genre of your story, which is thriller, although it does have elements of, you know, post apocalyptic stuff and sci fi and all the sort, you know, those things that we talk about in terms of style and reality and you know, those five genre clovers. The core external genre is thriller and the core internal genre is coming of age. So anyway, when you're dealing with minutiae and you're consistently dealing with the value shifts that are consistent with your external genre, you don't have to worry so much that you're getting lost in the woods because when you're, when you have time and you, you take a step back, which as your editor right now I'm able to have the long view, whereas you're having the very minutiae scene by scene view. And so just to give all the listeners sort of a quickie synopsis of the story progression so far, the story opens with a young girl who's caught stealing food from some house. And we discover that she's been caught by an authoritarian figure who's saying, hey, don't worry, I see that you're caught here, but we have a remarkable opportunity for you to come to this place that has the central power in your society and we are going to train you to be one of the upper members of society. And the climax of that first scene is that the young girl says, no, thank you, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to go. And so the next scene is the consequences of her action which are very devastating. She is physically harmed, her head is shaved, she is shamed, she's thrown into the lower depths of society. And that scene ends with her being rescued by two figures who come out of sort of the darkness and carry her away. Now the third scene, which is now which we actually ended up cutting. So that one, let's not even talk about that one. So what we're talking about now, that never happened. No, that never happened. So what we're talking about now is the progression of your story in the next scene. So we're picking up where what happens after the two shadowy figures have rescued this young girl who has been shamed and has been cast to the, to the ground. Her head has been shaved and she has a metallic sort of dome attached to her head and it's really frightening. So, you know, now we're entering this scene which we're talking about now. And the young, the young girl wakes up and she is greeted by a bald woman who turns out to be her mentor figure. And the bald woman in your scene presently walks her through a day in the life of somebody who is numbered, who is at the lower, you know, depths of society in this, this world. And it's a very striking and strange world that you're presenting to the reader. Things are almost backwards where daylight is hellish and nighttime is the time for people to sort of be able to be active. So people sleep during the daytime and only the lower levels of society are awake during the daytime. And it's their responsibility to clean up after the upper levels of society are sleeping. So this scene takes us through that early morning agenda. So we're literally actively walking with the character as she's learning what is necessary to survive in this world. And just to take one commentary step back, this is in the Kurt Vonnegut sort of six story paradigm. This is the man in the hole story arc where your lead character falls into a deep hole. And so what emotionally the reader is trying to surmise here is how is she going to get out of this situation? So that is what emotionally drives the narrative for the reader. They want to know what's going to happen next, how is this girl going to get out of this situation? So your scene continues with them going on their daily chores. And as they are doing the chores, the young girl inadvertently knocks out the cable that's attached to one of the, the people, people in the higher level who is knocked out and sort of sleeping in a daydreaming sleep in some other netherworld that we don't really understand as of yet. So there's a lot of mystery that you've already established here for the reader is that they don't know exactly why these people are zoned out and have cables in their head at nighttime. And what we do discover is that when the young girl pulls the cable out, she's attacked. As if that person who's been in the cable is almost coming out of some sort of shock, some sort of drug induced shock. So she's attacked, she's scratched, she has to cover herself. And that's how you end the scene. Which is a, is a really great technique for action stories because you're ending the scene on the climax of the scene itself. So that's the way you establish a cliffhanger to get the reader to try the next chapter. And it works here because it's consistent with your genre. Now if you were your external genre now, if you were writing a love story and you did that early on, it may or may not work because you, you have to establish a lot of different things in a love story that don't require cliffhangers at the early part. So that was a good choice on your part. The next scene, scene number four now, which is you talked about as number five, is the resolution of the prior scene, then kicking into another scene, which is the fallout from the woman who's had her plug yanked, who's put back into, you know, this netherworld. And now time is a wastin And Jesse and 83 have to get out of that place as quickly as possible because they have a lot of other houses that they have to clean. Now, you were concerned earlier when you, when you started this conversation about whether or not you made the right choice about the revelation, that Jesse has no idea what her sentence is in this nether, in this underworld of society. And 83, who's in a position of authority, authority to know, tells her, well, the truth of the matter is you got 25 years. Now, that I think on your part was a great decision. And the reason, the reason why is that you turn the scene in the opposite way that you had turned previous scene. Now, the very first scene that you wrote turned on Revelation. And that was when Jesse says, no, I'm not going to go. So your very first scene was a scene that turned on Revelation. The second scene was a scene that turned on action. And when those two figures came out to pick her up, that turned the scene from a negative to a positive because she was being saved. Your third scene turned on action again when the sort of drug induced coma woman attacks Jesse. Now, for this fourth scene, you wisely switched it up and turned it on Revelation. And the reason that that was a really good decision is that you use the momentum of the resolution of, from the prior action scene, push the reader into this next scene, and intuitively they're thinking, oh, something else is going to happen, something active is going to happen. And instead what you did is you changed it on Revelation and she confesses to Jesse, you got 25 years. Now, what's really good about that decision is that it provides enough motivation for Jesse, for Jesse's decision in the next scene, which is her trying to escape. So all in all, I think these. Now, of course, as you go through your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th edit of the book, you're going to tweak these scenes, you're going to add more language, you're going to flesh them out a little Bit or cut them back or whatever you decide to do. But for now, these are. These are four strong working scenes that are progressively complicating the story in an organic way. So when.

We'Re literally following one character as she's moving from day to day in a very strange world. So this is. I think these four scenes are doing you a lot of good. And what's nice is a lot of action. Stories start with action as your turning point in Revelation, and you switch that up. You started with a revelation as your turning point, and your second scene was an active turning point. Your third scene was an active turning point. Then you went back to Revelation. So you're mixing it up. You're moving your valences of your values properly so that we're moving from negative to. I forget off the top of my head, the first scene move from. She gets caught, so it's negative. And then she gets offered her thing, which is positive. And it turns negative when she turns them down. So it moves negative, positive, negative to. The second scene moves from negative to positive. The third scene moves from positive. She's rescued by 83, and it turns negative when she's attacked. Now this scene number five, it turns negative at the beginning because she's recovering from the attack. Then positive when 83 saves her and gets her back on track. And then negative again when she makes the revelation. So you move negative, positive, negative in this 1795 word scene that, you know, it embedded a lot of active information in a short, you know, mini scene. And that's great. That's what keeps people wanting to read more because you're giving them things that are happening organically that are bringing a narrative velocity to the story that will want to keep them turning pages to find out what happens next.

Okay, so, awesome. I feel good about that. Yeah. I tried to sit down and, like, write out where the scene was going and what was, you know, the value shift and everything before. Because we talked about that a few weeks ago of, like, I had too many scene, you know, in the set of 11 for the beginning hook that I turned in, there was, you know, a good four or five that didn't have a value shift. Right. And so I'm trying to make sure ahead of time, you know, when I sit down to write a scene, I think about that. That. Because, you know, that that moment a couple weeks ago when it clicked for me of, like, I never really understood the whole. How do you know if it turned from positive to negative? Because, like, the scene where she was Shamed. I'm like, well, that ends negative, but it's attached to the value that's shifting. So she. Since she went from unsafe to rescue, that's a positive shift, even though she's not in a great place at the end.

Exactly. Yeah.

So I'm now looking at. So that's four scenes. I kind of want to make sure I'm understanding what we decided to do for the rest of the beginning Hook. Because we decided to save the revelation of her brother being alive until the middle build. And the thing that puts her over the edge to agree to go is her friends being shamed.

Yes.

And she was the one that caused that. So let me make sure I have the story kind of moments right that we agreed on. So we've got her now to this point where in the next two scenes are basic. Well, the next scene is she runs away from the number that night, which is during the day, I guess, which would be when everybody would be awake.

I don't know.

I got to think about that. But basically, she runs away to home. And while she's there, the number, you know, 83 and the other numbers show up to bring her back because they can track her. And she didn't realize that.

And what she also does. I want to interrupt there, and this is an important part to mention, is that you set up in this scene that she reaches out to contact her underground group of friends. So as she's escaping, she puts a note underneath a stone in the courtyard so that we don't need to understand what she's doing, because when those two kids show up, we'll understand. Oh, she put a note there. So you're giving respect to the reader by not, you know, gilding the lily and overdoing this, reaching out to her friends in the underground. So that's an important thing to establish here. And also this scene. And I'm sorry to interrupt, but it's important to remember we talked. We had a whole episode probably a year ago or so about the Kubler Ross change curve for story. And that operates, too, when you're thinking about the psychology of your protagonist. And, you know, just to remind everybody, you know, one of the first things that happens when something really upsetting happens to a person is that they're in complete shock. Right. So the beginning of this story is our lead character makes a decision that is extremely, you know, harmful to herself. But because she's 12 years old, as children are wont to do, they're not fully thinking of the ramifications of the decisions Very early. So when she, you know, when she does get shame, there's a level of shock that she undergoes in that moment. And then she denies what's going on. When she wakes up the next morning, she wants to go home. She doesn't want to put on her clothes. She's sort of mouthy to 83. She's denying her really nasty existence at this point. Then she gets angry. You know, she's talking about not wanting to clean up the pee of these people and why do I have to clean this house? And then she starts to bargain with 83. Oh, you know, maybe I could do this, maybe I could do that. And now she's reaching this point where she comes to this realization that she's in it deep. So what she wants to do now is bargain her way out. And so this is pushing her into your next scene, which is her wanting to go home and getting daddy to take care of everything or mommy to take care of it, everything. And this is a way we bargain with ourselves. We say, oh, if I can just get Tim to fix all my problems, then I won't have to deal with my website.

Well, I've been thinking too, of like, how my kids process things and they assume, which is healthy, that I will help them.

Right.

You know, and so they'll get themselves into situations and when they get scared, they're like, they just immediately look to me or Candace to save them. And so I've been thinking about that, of that whole, like, you know, they don't think long term, you know, so Jesse was just kind of like, you know, fuck you, I'm not doing this. And not thinking about the ramifications. And then when the ramifications show up and they get worse, the first thing she, you know, the first things my kids would do is look to me to fix the problem. And so then in the next scene, that's where I establish one. They can't. They can't. But I also want to establish like her dad won't. He won't even try because he's afraid. And so we're establishing that, that she's on her own. And then the next scene is Jesse still running. They finally get her to come back, but on the way back, one of the, one of the number die because we have to, we decide we're going to share the consequences with that. And then we, the, the big changes were going to be that. And then 83 is going to be punished in some way for a numbered stepping out of line and losing one of the number two or as well. So because 83 is in charge, she gets punished in some way.

And then.

And then what I'm struggling with is how to move from there to the. Getting her friends involved. Because I'm. I'm like, are we turning up the fire too much? Because I'm like, at this point, wouldn't she just call it and be like, okay, I'm out. I'll go?

You know, that's a very good point. And, you know, after, you know, after being away from this for a little while, I do think that we. We should do one or the other, not both. Meaning I think nobody should die. So one of the numbered shouldn't die, but there should be the threat of death. But I do think 83 should be punished. And what's going to stop Jesse at that point from surrendering is 83. So 83, I think, would be, you know, we could establish her as a Judas figure, or we could establish her as, you know, just one of those people. And we all know them. I may even be one of them who just rebels for the sake of rebelling. You know, they almost enjoy being on the opposing side of whatever power there is. So 83 could be one of those people who.

But isn't. Isn't that what Jesse is? Wouldn't that be kind of doubling up?

Well, I think it is what Jesse is, but there's an evolution in that kind of character. Jesse is going to change. 83 will never change because she's a secondary character. So one of the things that you have to think about when you're creating your story and this isn't, you know, you can really get bogged down in characterization, and a lot of people do without ever thinking, you know, my point of view is everybody can probably tell, is work through your story first. Work through the evolutions of your value shifts and your scenes and your global story. And what you will discover is as you are working through that, you will inevitably have to start making character decisions. And, you know, there's probably a book that I should write about character that I haven't written yet. But what you want to do in your story is to surround your protagonist. If you're writing an archblot to. To surround your protagonist with figures that are very similar, that are one aspect of his or her global character. So 83 could become that sort of rebellious internal part of Jesse that refuses to give quarter. So what I'm thinking. And what I'm thinking is that if 83, like Jesse could go to 83 and say, you know, Enough is enough. I'll go to the Capitol. There's. There's no point in you suffering for my decisions, not in exactly that kind of adult kind of way, but to say, look, enough is enough. I'll do it. And 83 could say to her, no, I need to be punished for this tyranny so that others might see, you know, others might change their behavior based upon what I go through. So please don't do that for me. And, in fact, if you do do that for me, I will be angry or upset with you. I'm just making this up off the top of my head. It might not sound very good right now, but my point is, is that this is a way to establish this underpinning of Jesse's having, you know, understanding that she's starting to really affect other people and the decisions that she made, and she's ready to sacrifice herself for somebody who's in. In trouble because of her actions. So you could have 83 stop her from giving in at this point, and then 83 could suffer the consequences, and that could. Then perhaps we are guilty. Maybe we are putting too much in getting her from, you know, getting her out of this hole into finally agreeing to go to the Capitol. Right now she's going to the Capitol. She would be going to the Capitol in a position of weakness to save, you know, 83 from being punished for it. And what we need to do is to figure out how she can get to the Capitol by saving not only her friends under. In the underground from the shaming slavery problem, but maybe bringing 83 with her or something. I'm not sure. But you do bring up a very good point. Are we going too deep in this beginning hook and adding too many progressive complications that are too similar so that the reader might get weary of this and say, come on, let's get into the capital already.

Yeah. Well, so couple thoughts I had. One is, like, I'll have to come up with some with a clever punishment, because if it's just like her getting whipped or something, it's way too similar to the shaming at the beginning.

Right.

But that's work for me to do. I kind of, like. I got to think about the motivation, but I kind of like 83 keeping her, like Jesse almost making the decision, and 83 pulling her back from that ledge and then one more thing happening that puts her over the ledge.

Right?

Because it's like, then we basically had three moments we have when she's attacked and tries to go home when 83 is attacked, and then when her friends are attacked, whatever that looks like.

Yeah. The other thing that you could do is make. Take an opportunity to present the psychological warfare of the reigning power. And what I mean by that is instead of it making it a physical abuse, you make it a public, you know, like, maybe 83 gets additional. You know, she was due to get out from the numbered, you know, early or something, and now she's got extra years on her sentence. And during the ceremony of her getting that, you know, those extra years, you know, Jesse makes a movement to come forward to try and save her. And that's when 83 silences her or something. I'm not sure. But, you know, one of the. One of the things we have to keep in mind is we've got a really nice action scene coming up and to balance that with perhaps a more cerebral public event that is not as terrorizing as the shaming that could be. But, you know, these are decisions that you need to make as the creator. And I'm just throwing out ideas so that you can throw out the ones that I don't like that you don't like.

Yeah, I guess I'm making sure, like, I have my signposts at the right place where. So if we're going to 83, and that's not quite enough to put her over the edge, and then we go to her friends, and then whatever happens to them is enough to put her over the edge, to make the call that she's gonna go. And I feel like somewhere in here, there needs to be a reminder to Jesse from the Powers to Be that she can end this whenever she wants. Because we haven't really established that, like, in the beginning, she was offered this and she said no. But since then, it has not been established she can end this just by giving up.

Well, then, you know, that's. That's part of the scene that you could, you know, that we're talking about. You could have the authority figure shame her. I mean, like, psychologically shame her in front of her brethren. You know what she's now part of? Jesse's now part of the numbered tribe. Right.

She needs to get kicked out of that tribe, too.

Sort of. Yeah.

So as soon as they find out she can just walk away whenever she wants. They probably wouldn't like her very much.

Exactly. So that would be something that you could do. It could be, you know, when, you know, the guard comes into the inmates in the prison and says, okay, fellas, one of you guys, we understand, has been getting contraband cigarettes in here. And until that person comes forward, you will all, you know, be in solitary confinement. So whoever is that person becomes hated by everybody else. It's what sports coaches have been doing for centuries. You know, until coin learns how to not go off sides. We're all running five laps to begin each. You know.

Not that happened to me, but that's what coaches do to. To get the team to police itself. Right.

So I can establish the Marines, maybe. Maybe after she comes back into the fold. Okay, what if I just establish that she's, like, being taken care of and being, you know, becoming a part of that tribe. And then when they come. They come to punish Jesse for trying to escape, but they announce she's not allowed to be touched. For what? Because of all these other reasons. So they actually grab 83 and punish her. And so now she's getting ostracized in that way. I don't want to get too deep in this because this is my work to do, but that's kind of.

Yeah, that's. That's the right way to go. That's the. That's the instinct that makes sense. How can you. Here's the problem that must be solved. How can you turn up the temperature on Jesse to make her give in while also telling the reader more about this world? So to make somebody, you know, they fall. They fall into the lower tribe, and then to have that tribe reject them, too. Now they are outside the lowest of the low. Yeah.

So they. That alone pushes her towards going to.

The capital, or it makes her even more resolute, like, oh, great, so even you losers aren't going to, you know.

So then that would motivate her to, like, become even more intractable. Perhaps. I'm not sure.

Well, would that motivate her to try to work with her friends?

Yeah.

To get. To escape. And that's what gets them caught. And that's when she can't take it anymore.

Right. Well, once they're caught, it's over. She lost her father and her mother. Then she lost her new group of tribal members, and then she loses her intimate friends. She can't. You know, she can't do that. She's. She's got to give up at this point. They won, and she's got to do what they tell them to do. What. What they tell her to do. And this is a way of getting her to the magical world, because what we're talking about, you know, we. We started this conversation about the global genres that you're writing in, and we've been talking about the external Genre, which is the thriller. But. But the big, you know, the big story here, the one that, you know, people are going to be attached to, is the coming of age story. And the coming of age story circles is in the same realm as the hero's journey. And in the hero's journey, the beginning of the story, the hero gets a call. They refuse the call, and eventually they're beaten down to the point where they accept the call, and they move from the ordinary world into an extraordinary world. They physically leave their environment that they know pretty, you know pretty well to a completely different world, a magical world. That's when Katniss moves to the Capitol to. To become part of the Hunger Games. She's, you know, inducted into that society. She learns the rules there. She accepts that calling. So this is what we're. This. The whole point of this beginning hook is to grab the reader, put our lead protagonist into a man in the hole kind of emotional arc until she realizes the only way that she is going to get out of this situation is to give the authority what they want. Yeah.

So if I'm. As I pulled up, you know, the. The circle of the hero's journey. And the first five steps are ordinary world, call to adventure, refusal of the call, meeting the mentor, and then crossing the threshold.

Right.

So I feel like we mixed that up a little bit. It's been more like refusal of the call, meeting the mentor, ordinary world, or call to adventure, refusal of the call, meeting the mentor, ordinary world, and then she's going to cross.

Yeah, that works.

So this is following the hero's journey so far.

Yeah, and it's always a good thing to think about that as you're contemplating the scene to scene, sequence by sequence, movements of your story. Because we've been talking very, very specific scene movements over the past few weeks now where, you know, we've got four strong scenes and we want to say to ourselves, okay, how do we get to crossing the threshold? Right. The sequence of Denial of the Call is pretty much in the first scene of your story. Then meeting the mentor happens in the third scene. And the fourth scene is the mentor revealing to her, hey, get used to it, honey. You got 25 years here. So the next scene is her trying to get back to the way things used to be, which is what we always do when confronted with a very dark change, even a really great change. But anyway, so I think your story is moving and it's progressing, you know, organically through the stages of the hero's journey as well as the Kubler Ross Personal, psychological, coping with change. The questions that we've been talking about, do we want to have a death so early? Probably not. I think you're right about that. But we do want the threat of death. We do want the threat that when that light goes off, things don't happen, good things don't happen. And then we want to establish that. Okay, so now Jesse's obstinacy is threatening other people, and so that tribe is going to reject her. So she's going to take one last desperate act to go back to her. You know, the usual people who always come to her aid, and then she puts them in danger. And so it's at that point where she must surrender. She must make the heroic choice and say, enough, enough. I put too many people in danger. I now have to accept this calling, even though it terrifies me, and I'm gonna go. And so that is putting her into the threshold of the movement from the ordinary world to this magical, extraordinary world that's going to explain to the reader what the hell that cable is delivering into the cerebral cortexes of these people, what they're doing in that fantastical world that's made up that virtual reality, why it's so important, and why Jesse is so important to this Authority Bureau that she. They're pulling out all the stops to get her just to even accept the call. And they need her to be at their mercy when she gets there. They don't want to just drag her there, like some people would say, well, why doesn't the Authority figures just drag her there? Because they need her to go there after being defeated. She now knows that if she. She doesn't do what she's told, there's going to be massive consequences, not just for herself, but for everybody that she marginally and even mostly cares about. So that's why they don't just arrest her and take her to the Capitol. And I think that's clear. I think it's it. It's clear that this authority figure is. They are working to get Jesse psychologically to a breaking point so that they can rebuild her. They can rebuild her with tantalizing things that will get her to do their bidding for them. And if they just arrested her, they'd spent months locking her in a cell. They couldn't really harm her because her parents were far away. Everything would be third party. So this makes sense. And so the trick now for the next several scenes is to make those scenes getting her to the threshold of the extraordinary world compelling in and of themselves. So, like, we did in redoing the scene where Jesse wakes up and has coffee with her mentor. And we transform that into her going into this very dark, horrific environment with her mentor, who's showing her the ropes of this horrific job that she's going to have to do for the next 25 years. That's interesting. As opposed to a reader reading about a coffee class.

Yeah. And I didn't. And I guess pushing it, you know, it's. It's so hard. It feels like when you first start to, like, learn your balance on a bike or whatever, and it's like you start to get it and then you overcorrect the wrong way and fall over. And that's what I was like, okay, saying that she's stuck there for 25 years, is that like, just shooting, like, just too much? Or is that like, no, we need something strong enough to get her to run away? Because that's what I was trying to think of is like, okay, she's now afraid physically. I need to do something that will mentally kind of break her to leave.

Yes. And then run away. What you're doing, and this is what Robert McKee always. I love this phrase that he uses is you're using exposition as ammunition. And what that means is that wouldn't it be real?

That's one of those things you say all the time that, like, I feel like I know what it means, but I don't actually understand what that means.

Okay, okay. What it means is that what you could have done in that shaming moment is you could have had the mayor of the town say, and by decree of the authority, I now sentence you to 25 years with the numbered bang. And here's your thing. Right. And that. That's boring. Right. Because we are so enveloped in her getting that horrible crown put on her head and being stoned and having her hair cut off, that we don't need that extra little thing. The only reason to put that in is to load in exposition. Right. And so what people would say to me, another writer would say to me is, but how am I going to let the reader know that she got 25 years? And I would say, well, why don't you use it as exposition, as ammunition? And what that means is use that revelation of exposition as a way to move, to turn your story.

So here's basically saving it for when it's actually useful.

Exactly, exactly. Save the secrets, save the information. Remember, information is power. Your reader doesn't have any information. So when you choose to give them information, make choices that you can use to turn your scenes as opposed to just making stupid, you know, dialogue decrees or, hey, remember Joe, that time when we were back in, in college and you had that terrible mononucleosis that you never recovered from? Yeah, I remember that. Anyway, I was thinking of that the other day as I was riding my bike and I, you know, we laugh, but you read novel and thing after thing, and those things are in there all the time. And those are the things that readers hate because they see right through it. They know that they're gonna have some mononucleosis, you know, subplot come in and like three or four more chapters and the writer will be, well, I had to lay that in or they wouldn't get the mononucleosis part. And, and as an editor, you can say, well, you've got it. You can't do that. You have to use your exposition as ammunition to turn your scenes and revelations as opposed to that. And then you get the wide eyed, you know, glassy eyed look of somebody who doesn't know what the hell you're talking about. Yeah.

And you, because for a couple months now, I keep, when I'm writing the scenes, I'm thinking, put as little in as possible. Like, because, and you haven't had to say it yet, I'm like, I'd rather Sean tell me to put extra, extra in than say, you know, take all this extra exposition out or these extra things. So I'm trying to like, put as little in as possible and explain as little as possible. And it was funny in that scene, I, I think I deleted the 25. That, that part of the conversation about revealing that it was 25 years probably three times, and put it back in because I'm like, you know, I tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap back. No, no, no, no, that's too long. Or it's too much. Or like I'm just like overdoing it. And I'm like, I don't know how else to like get her to do it. So I put her back in and then I'm like, nope, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. And like, I delete. It was just like, you know, I'm just sitting there looking to see.

But you do understand the difference now of why it works in this scene and it wouldn't work in an earlier decree. Right? Because that is, that is. Jesse doesn't have any information. She doesn't know how long she's been sentenced. She thinks this might be like, I don't know, a week, two days, you.

Know, or haven't even thought about it like that.

Right.

They don't realize what they've gotten themselves into until they're sitting at it. And then they're like, even though I told them, right, And I'm going to go on a parenting stick here. But it's like, I've told you 100 times, if you do this, this happens, and then you do that. And when this happens, we're all surprised that this ever happened. You know, it's like, and so I've been trying to think that way of just like she has not thought past just the next decision. And the fact that she wants what she wants and that's what 12 year olds do.

And what do adults do? They hide information from kids that will disturb them. So that's, it makes perfect sense why 83 doesn't say to her when she wakes up, hey, you got 25 years. You know, because what parents do and what adults do is they don't want to share difficult information with children. So it's all that all clicked in that moment where, you know, 83 had the level with this kid, hey, you just pulled the plug out of somebody. You've got scratches on your face, you're bleeding. This is no joke, kid. And no, you're, you got 25, baby, it's 25, get used to it. And that is enough to send, you know, those butterflies in your stomach just crashing. So that revelation turns the scene dramatically, dramatically. Her life, Jesse's life has now gone from really bad to horrific. And that is enough to push the reader into believing that she would like any 12 year old run home. So that is, that is an example of using exposition as ammunition in a way that works. And that's the, the big question you have to ask. You have to ask yourself when you do something like that. And obviously intuitively you suspect that, that it was working. That's why you kept putting it back in. And the, the test is to say what, you know, what has changed. Has the scene changed with this information being delivered to the character? Has that dramatically changed the value of this scene? It moves the scene from saved to devastated. Right? It moves the, the scene from Jesse having relief that she's been saved from the attacking zombie to, oh my God, I, to devastation. I'm going to have to deal with these zombies for 25 years. So it moves it from positive to double negative.

Yeah, I was trying to, so the, I was trying to pay attention to my thought process through this. And the first was I kept trying to figure out a way to do it by action. By, like, could. Could something happen? But I could not. Like, I don't know how to communicate 25 years without somebody saying it eventually. So, like, that's what I kept. That's why I kept deleting it too. Is like, there's got to be a better way to do this than just say it. And then when I left it out but couldn't come up with an action, I'm looking at it and I'm like, this thing doesn't change. Like, it doesn't. It doesn't get bad enough. Because when I wrote down I have here my notes, I said, I need to push her out of this world to run back home. Because I was. I was thinking of this scene as a bridge. Like, I got to get it from this attack to she's gonna go home. So she was just attacked and is working in horrible conditions. But I need to drive it home hard how bad this is. And that was the only thing I could come up with. And, I mean, it's good. It's good that it worked. It was just. I was like, trying, you know, because over and over it's like, show, don't tell, you know, don't say too much, all these things. And so I'm like, I have to get this point across. And I was trying to, like, look at every other option besides somebody just saying it. And then that's when I just was like, okay, this is the only option. But that's why when I sent it to you, I'm like, I don't know if this works, because I had to say something to get it across.

Well, that's that whole show versus tell stuff that can be very distracting and ridiculous. Because as I've said over and over again, there are two ways to turn a scene through. Action or revelation. And revelation is, at the point, appropriate moment, having one character say to another the truth and the truth that they have no understanding of. So at the beginning, the very first scene that you wrote, we ended the scene with a revelation. Because we believe throughout that scene, this kid's in trouble and she's been offered an opportunity that's not only going to get her out of trouble, but make her life even better. And the revelation is that this is a girl who wants no part of that. And so when she says no, are you going to come? No. Bang. End that scene there. Because you have used the information of fact. Turn the scene. Now. The big mistake would have been to keep prattling on after she says no and having the guy say, what do you mean no. Well, I just don't want to go. What do you mean you're going to get ice cream there? No, I still don't want to go. And you'd be surprised how many people do that. It's having the confidence in your shocking revelations that. That are actively displaying character. That's a choice from the character, an active choice that defines who they are. And so when 83 says to Jesse, you got 25 years, what she's saying, and this is probably intuitively why I think I may have changed my point of view about this character, that I don't see her as a Judas, is the reason why, is that she, 83 had the courage to look that kid in the eye and tell her the truth. And so why I like that is because it's unexpected. And it says this, 83 is okay because she told her the truth and she actively made the choice to tell her the truth.

But isn't that why it would be all the more devastating later to have her turn on her?

Sure, sure. But what's great is that you have to remember, as the creator of your story, that you get to enjoy the creation too. This isn't all about you feeling pain. This is about you discovering and trying and tweaking things that make you change your mind about things. And this is one of the reasons why the story grid is fantastic to plot out a general map for your story. And I fully, wholly recommend that people do this. But you also have to let in that window of opportunity as you're creating the story itself itself, to allow yourself to change your mind. You have to say, well, I'm definitely setting her up as a betrayer. Or I'm definitely gonna have the revelation of the end of the beginning hook be the revelation that the brother is alive. That's definite. But part of creating and enjoying the process of creating is saying to yourself, hey, wait a minute. Yeah, that's a great place to drop in the 25 year sentence. And to have 83 tell her that and to give her the truth. So many people in our lives lie to us constant. We're constantly being lied to. So when you have a story where a character tells the truth, it says so much about that character in a really good way. It says, these people, this person has honor. This person has ethics. This person is not gonna bullshit. And that is really nice because this is her mentor, right? This is her mentor figure who has come to rescue her. And the mentor looks at her and says, 25 years. I'm not gonna bullshit you Kid, you're fucked. And you better get used to cleaning the toilet because this is no life. But you gotta make of it what you can. And I'm not gonna lie to you, this is the truth. And she is the first person that has told Jesse the truth, maybe in her life. And that's really cool.

Okay, so I'm kind of divided on what to do next. Do I go to my. The thing that I love to do and map out the next six, eight, ten scenes, or should I just focus on the next sequence and just rewrite the next sequence to get her to the point where she's ostracized from even the number?

I think you could do either one and do it successfully. But the choice that you need to say to yourself is, what's going to be more fun for me? And is staying in this moment to moment world, writing this next sequence going to be more fun than plotting out perhaps what I'll do in the next six scenes and then applying that? Or is that going to be more fun? My. My gut is that go with the flow, go with the juice of what just happened at the end of this scene. There's a. There's something interesting, Tim, in the fact that you deleted that revelation three times or four times, or however many times you did, but you kept putting it back in. So why did you do that beyond just not being able to figure out the end of the scene? I think you have to give that some, some credence and say to yourself, there's something inside of me that told me to keep that in there and maybe I should just keep moving forward with this sequence and maybe I'll discover some more things. I know. You know how to plot out 72 scenes or 60 scenes, or 15 scenes, or you know how to do that really well. What you're learning now is how to live in the minutia with the global in the back of your mind and letting that inform you without letting it control you. So my recommendation is to keep going with this sequence and get her to the threshold and you might discover even more things that will load that you can load in later into your middle build and even, maybe even your ending payoff.

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Story Grid podcast. For everything Storygrid related, check out storygrid.com make sure you pick up a copy of the book. Sign up for the newsletter. Make sure you don't miss anything happening in the Story Grid universe. If you'd like to check out the show notes for this episode or any past episodes. All of that can be found@storygrid.com podcast us. If you would like to reach out to us, you can find us on Twitter @StoryGrid. Lastly, if you would like to support the show, you can do that by telling another author about the show and by visiting us on itunes and leaving a rating and review. Thanks for subscribing and being a part of our work here at StoryGrid. We will see you next week.