How to Connect with Characters: Finding the Motivation and Shadow in Yourself

Hello, and welcome to the Story Grid podcast. My name is Tim Krall. I am the CEO of StoryGrid Universe, and I'm a struggling writer trying to tell a story that works. Joining me shortly is not Sean Coyne or Leslie Watts. It's just Danielle Kiowski, the chief academic officer of StoryGrid University. So this episode kind of came about organically. Danielle and I were on our weekly business call, but then we started talking about the most recent episode of the podcast, my struggles with doing this eyewitness scene. And we started getting into my writing. Now, in general, I have this rule that if we're going to talk about my writing, we have to record it for the podcast. Now, at this point, I still wasn't planning on recording it for the podcast. So it's a very organic conversation. But as we got deeper into it, I realized we should just put this up as an episode of the podcast, because we talk about a lot of the same things we talk about on the podcast, and it really helped me have some clear understanding into what my blocks have been in rewriting my own version of eyewitness by Ed McVayne. So if you're watching this on the YouTube version, you'll see it's just a zoom recording. It's low resolution. It's not super high resolution. And the other thing is, if you're listening to this, is that the audio isn't as good as it usually is because I was using. I wasn't using this microphone, which makes me sound better. Same thing for Danielle as well. But towards the end, we just realized, like, this is something we wanted to share with all of you and make sure that you hear all the behind the scenes of the stuff that we're working through. So I think it's a really great episode. It's definitely different than what we normally do, but we still hit on the same subject. So I'm just going to go ahead and let it speak for itself. So let's jump in and get started.

I mean, to me, when you. When you talked about how.

Building a real world, Building context in a real world is just as hard as building a fantasy world, it's just coming at the same problem from the different direction. What I heard in that, too, is it's the same thing with writing narrative nonfiction, which is like.

And in some. So in some ways, it's harder because it's like, I literally only have these facts to work with.

So. So I'm.

I'm working on a book right now that is trying to novelize my EMDR experience.

And.

So I'm writing it. It's a. It's a very weird feeling to write it. I'm about 10,000 words into it.

Because I'm writing it as if I'm writing it the way I wrote writing down a dream, which is. I'm writing it as if it's a real story. So it's like, I'm in it, Candace is in it, my boys are in it. Like, every. It's. I'm telling, like, all the true stories.

The EMDR portions are really easy. So I went back and re. Watched Big Fish. Did you ever see that movie? So what I was. The reason I watched it is there's a framing story that is happening in reality. And it's a. It's a father son story, but most of the movie are these fantastical stories. It's a Tim Burton movie, right. So it's very Tim Burton fantastical stories in between. And the whole thing was his dad used to tell these insane stories that obviously didn't happen. And.

Okay, I think about that. Yeah.

Okay. So I went back and rewatched it because I'm like, that's how I'm telling the stories, if the framing stories in reality. And then I drop into a fantastical world for these EMDR things. So, like.

I have. My EMDR therapist is a character, but she's like Minerva from. Not Minerva, who's the crazy. The crazy teacher at Harry Potter that. Yeah, the. The. What's. What did she teach?

Divination.

Yes, her. That's who I'm. I started explaining to Candice. She goes, oh, Trelawney from Harry Potter? I'm like, yeah, so.

So she's the one that shows up and then, like, drags me into these worlds. And then I. The. The EMDR things are super easy. They just pour right out of me. But I've been trying to figure out this fr.

And I realized I'm going to tell.

I'm going to compact down basically every mistake I made as a father and husband and just cram them all into this one framing story, which will only probably end up being 10,000 words of the story. So it's going to be a novella on its own.

But I realized, like, oh, I'm doing the same thing I did in running down a dream, which was like.

Editing, taking what happens, but then putting it into a narrative that made a lot. That makes a lot more sense.

Because this is part of what I talked to Sean about. About. I feel like I'm pretending to be a writer instead of Writing is like, I can't figure out how to get into this space without it being me.

Oh, interesting. Okay. Okay.

Right. So I sent him over the. A couple months ago, I wrote two of my EMDR experience stories, and I sent it to him, and he's like, this is the best stuff you've ever written. Like, it was like. And it was like, first draft, because it's like, I'm just. And it was this weird thing because they're completely fantastical.

So that's the struggle I'm currently having is like, how do I get into that same space where I feel like I'm just, like, telling the truth about what happened when it didn't actually happen to me.

Okay.

Does that make sense?

It does, it does. And a couple thoughts. So one, just when you were talking about Big Fish and about, like, the way that you're thinking about the story, it reminded me of everything, everywhere, all at once.

Yeah, I just watched that about a month ago.

Yeah, that's. I see that in very much the same way that I read this article on speculative journaling. And it was. It was interesting because it was. It reminded me a lot of what you had said about the threshing, that it's like, this thing happened to me, but it's boring to watch, so I'm adding in elements to make the outside match the inside.

Yeah.

And that's what I felt like everything, all everywhere, all at once was doing. And so. And it seems really similar to what you're talking about with, like. Yeah, you drop in and. And. And on the question of, like, then how do you do that when it's not you.

I think what it sounds like to me is that.

When you go into these. The EMDR states and you have these experiences that you're tapping into your story sense and you're generating these things and they're coming to you fully formed because.

You don't have all the stuff in the way between, you know, whatever it is like that access to innate storytelling or the collective subconscious or whatever it is, but you have, like, the ability to tap into that story. River. And so what happens is that they come out and they work and they conform to all of these things, but it's all implicit. And so what you're trying to do, whenever you write something that's not coming from that experience, is you have to then make it explicit. And that feels a lot clumsier because you're having to break down.

A methodical way of doing it that isn't just like, relying on instinct and so. And I can see why that would be really frustrating, because it's like, if I can do it in this one arena, why can't I do it in this other arena? But it's like.

I don't. I don't.

I understand.

I understand that and I understand. That's why.

But it's like.

Like with. With, you know, the eyewitness thing, it's like, how do I.

Meld those? Like, you know, how do I get from here, from here to there? Right. And.

Though that's the thing. And so it's like. Because. So before. So before I started working on this, so I had this moment, it all, like, the whole book, like, downloaded into my head one morning while I drove to work, like two weeks ago, this one, the EMDR one before that. Because it's like, I'm only working on one scene a week, and so it's driving me crazy. So I was like, I gotta work on stuff in between. So I had this. I came up with what I thought was a pretty good setup for a crime story. Good characters, you know, and trying to attach. It was going to happen within a church system. So there's all these, like, secrets and hiding and everything else. But it was the same way where I kept feeling like.

I was telling this story and it. And it wasn't coming out right. So then I'm like, watching myself. Like, I'm watching myself write instead of writing.

It's like I had this conversation with my dad a couple months ago where I'm like.

You'Ve got to stop trying to be my father when we're together. Because what happens is, is you're watching yourself interact with me, which means you're over here. Like, there's always space between us because you're back up here watching yourself interact with me. You're not just interacting with me. And that's what it feels like when I'm writing for the eyewitness stuff and when I'm writing these other stories is it feels like.

I'm constantly watching myself write instead of just writing.

Yeah.

If that makes sense.

It does. And something that occurs to me is that.

I don't know if this is causal, but it seems like a lot of that is arising whenever you approach a crime story. And so maybe there's something about that genre.

And I'm remembering about the neighborhood who was.

Spying on his neighbor or something. You had, like, a thriller that you were.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it seemed like. It seems like maybe you have some sort of a block with that like, crime thriller area. And I wonder if maybe you tried start. Tried writing something else. That's primal. So, like get out of the action space, but not to crime. Like tried doing a horror story.

And see if you're still finding that.

Well, it feels. It felt. So this is what, like I hit my head because it. This is. I felt the same way about the Earth C1. Right.

Okay. Okay.

It feels like when I'm trying to learn how to do something right.

And this is where it's like, I don't know how.

I don't always think this is a bad thing. Right. Because this is where I now use Jiu jitsu. Right. So it's like we did a. We did like that we had this world champion come in yesterday and did like a three hour seminar. And it's super interesting because he's so. I'm a purple belt, so I'm like somewhere in the middle. But we had people that have been training less than two months in the room and people that have been training 15 years in the room. And he's trying to teach, and there's a hundred of us and there's one guy in the middle teaching everybody. And so he's like.

I immediately start like picking up the move. And then like. But then I find like these little areas I'm getting stuck, so I'm working on those. And then you watch the people that have been training for a month and they're like, I don't even know where to put my hands. Right. So I can like start flowing in the move a little bit because I know, I know basically what we're doing. And then I'm trying to add in the specifics that he's showing. And so when we're doing this, I know that's part of what I'm doing is it's like, write a police report. Use this narrative device. You can't use the word compulsively because that has this intonation to it. You have to use methodically or something else that you would see, you know, And I'm like, oh, you know, so that's like part of this exercise is I am supposed to be watching myself, right? Because I'm trying to do something I've never done before.

So.

But then at some point, like, like the final. I remember this with the final version of the Earth C1, it finally like, I'm like, yeah. And it all came right out, you know, and so. And I bring away from that a set of skills that now if I tried to use them, I Wouldn't even realize I was using. I picked up in writing or see, because it's. It got installed now, and I can just use it. So I think of that with this. This is worth banging my head against these things, because then in three years, when I need to write something that involves this kind of a separation where I can't put any emotion, I can't put anything, you know, I'll have that. I can reach into my toolbox and pull that tool out. Because of this.

Yeah.

But. Yeah.

So this is where I, like.

I have to just trust the process because I start having these moments where I'm like, am I ever going to write anything again? You know what I mean? Like.

Because will I ever not watch myself, right? And then when I'm like, writing this EMDR stuff and it feels so good, I'm like, yeah, but I. I'll be done. Like, I. I don't have any more in there to pull from, you know? And I can't, like, keep going back to EMDR and making her, like, dig deeper into my psyche to find more so I can write another book. So, like, I got to be able to, like, do others, you know? So it's like all of this, like. And anyway.

I don't know.

Yeah, no, that makes sense. You know, I'm thinking back on the Earth Sea.

So that's a good reflection, because I wasn't thinking that. That you would have that same, like.

Like, witnessing experience there. So it's good to know that that was true there, too. And I'm thinking about how what unlocked it is that we got down to. This is what you have to do.

You know, conceptually, you need to write a complex institution. And it was like. It was like scraping away all of the details until it got to that core of, like, what is it that you're not wanting to do?

And here. And this is what.

This is. My sense of it is that the narrative device isn't the problem.

Because it's like, you don't have problems with word choice. You know, once we point out it's methodically, not compulsively, it's like, all right, cool.

But.

There'S something. And I think my sense of the story is really that there's something at the essential tactic level that is a blocker for you.

Like, figuring out what people in this context really want.

And I was thinking about talking about the narrative device.

Methodically is what. Is what someone like Capelli would use compulsively might be something that someone who's more corrupt would use the word choices in a police report are going to change based on the level of corruption or.

Culpability of that officer who's writing it. So if Wilson wrote it, he would use compulsively because he wants to paint Randall in this negative light.

And so I think, like, even those things, it's getting at really understanding.

Understanding everyone's role in the context. And I'm not sure what that blocker is, but. But it seems like we keep settling on the. The red essential tactic level as the problem.

And so there's something in there that's like a stitch.

Yes. I rewrote the trope already. I did it yesterday. I went through it again this morning.

Because when I was.

I was thinking about it this weekend, and I was like.

Watson's really. He would be really angry about this, and he would be angry because it happened. He would also be angry because he can't do anything about it. Like, he would be angry at himself that he's a coward for not just saying what happened, but knowing he can't just say what happened. Right. And then I thought, like, if he's one of the good ones, that means he was friends with Barnes, and now he actually feels a little guilty because they were probably trying to take Wilson down together.

And Barnes got killed in the process. Even though he's not actually culpable, he probably feels bad about it, too, which makes him even more angry. Right. Because Candace is always like, anger is the safest emotion. So people that don't feel comfortable with their emotions, they always go to anger. So then I'm like, so he would write this in a way.

Where he was angry, but he has to do it under this particular. Filling out a police report, which means he can't just be like, this fucking guy. Like, he has to, like, say this fucking guy without saying this fucking guy.

Well, and also, like.

I think about it as. He's not. He's not writing this as a journal to get his anger out. He's writing this for a purpose. So this is going to Internal affairs.

And the idea is, like.

He hangs Wilson without hanging himself.

Well, in this trope, he's trying to hang Dawson.

Yeah. Yeah, Right, Right.

So that's where I'm like, he's.

Yeah, he's trying to hang. That's what I've been. When I read. Because I just rewrote the trope, I'm like.

Anyway, so.

Yeah, so one of the things that. That we were talking about, I think we talked about this in the podcast, is about how.

How.

It'S about connecting to them at that archetypical level. So, you know, Randall is a fish out of water.

And that generally you tend not to be.

And.

And so, like, even in this conversation, you're connecting really strongly with Watson. And I think that. I think that it's like, you have to connect with both of them in a story like this. And that's something that's, I think, more difficult than we realized it would be because you have to access both sides of that archetype. So I think that you're really getting dialed into that Watson side. And. And I would like. I'm thinking about.

Times that you've done. Like, when you emailed, you were doing a very similar thing to, like, using that communication as a tool to let the person fuck themselves over. Like, that's what Watson's doing. So I think it's. I don't think it's surprising that you have that strong connection to that Watson side of it. And then it's like, how do you also connect to Randall in the same way.

Or to Dawson? Like, you have to connect to all these people.

Yeah. And maybe that is the same block I was having with the complexity, order and chaos thing. Because I. It's like.

Yeah, but I don't know what the block is.

Yeah. Is it like. Is it like, this is a shitty guy? Like, do you think about. Do you think about them in terms of, like, good and bad?

No, I think about it in terms of like.

Like, I can. I can get on board with Dawson. I feel like I've probably been him at some point where I'm trying to protect something that doesn't need protecting. I mean, that's.

I think it's the. Like.

I'm having trouble.

Like, even in eyewitness, I'm like, if I was that guy, if I was Struthers, the story would never have existed because I would have never gone in.

Because it's like.

If. If there was a chance that I and the people I love could be harmed by me going in, and I'm only going in to relieve myself of something, guilt, I would decide it was mine to carry.

Does that make sense? Like, I'll just carry that guilt the rest of my life because I'm the one that was sleeping with this woman, which got her killed, which is why I got eyewitnessed the killing in the first place, and it was all my fault. So why would I risk myself and the ones I love when I can just move forward and carry the guilt?

Okay. Does that make sense? So when I. So when I put myself in Randall's shoes.

I have a hard time coming up with why he would come in.

Right. Okay. Okay. Well, I think. I think we're getting somewhere. You know, I think.

Struthers doesn't know he's the reason why.

I agree with you. If he knows that's her husband.

That it's, like, not as compelling. But he doesn't know that. So I think.

I think it's about. He sees what he thinks is a random attack. That's why he wants to talk to her husband. He knows her husband is lieutenant. He doesn't know her husband is the murderer. So he wants to talk to him because he thinks, look, if anybody is beyond corruption, it's her husband because he loved her. And then he finds out. Oh, like, he finds out that the story is what you just said. And so when he goes in, he's thinking, there's a maniac on the street. And so either I put myself in a position where they might find out my culpability, or this guy keeps on murdering people and somebody else loses somebody they love.

Like, as much as I hate to say it.

My first reaction, I don't know if I would do that.

So I think the question is, like, if you're in that situation, you witness a murder like that, and you think, okay, this is going to be a risk to my family. Like, find your criterion. What is it? What's the risk.

That would get you to come in? And maybe these stories don't have enough yet, but then amp it up. Like, you gotta. You gotta find out what would cause you to come in.

Because when I think about him, I think, you should not be here. Why did you do this? Do not come in here. This is not worth whatever you're getting out of it.

I think this is. I think this is what the story is, like, what the blocker is that you need to unlock for this.

All right?

I also recognize that's really hard.

When.

You hold something really sacred. And it's like there's nothing, you know, like your family. Like, if there's any chance they get hurt, I don't do anything. So I just want to. Want to recognize that, because I felt that way too.

Well, when I think about if I was in Randall's position.

I have almost nothing already.

And I probably had something at one point, and it got taken from me. Even if I was culpable in it, I don't have it anymore. And I used to have something.

Because when we worked with the homeless, a lot that was. That was always. What struck me, is it's like. It's like you. Obviously, these people, you know, 99 of them weren't born onto the street, have always lived on the street. You know, like, they went from having something to having nothing. And something happened in there.

And so.

When I think about this, it's like.

He'S risking what little he has after losing a lot already.

To. For what?

To. To, like, you know.

Help people that he doesn't know and will never see again.

And, like, he. So I have a hard time feeling responsible for society as a large because I'm like, what can I. You know, it's like, call your congressman. I'm like, yeah, me and the other 300 million people. You know what I mean? It's like, whatever. You know, it's like, I'll risk it for, like, my small. My smaller tribes, but I do not feel connected at that country. National, like, nationalism makes no sense to me. I. I don't even have a category for it. And so.

You know, I.

So when I think about, like, him doing it for, like, the city, to keep the city safe, it's like, why would he do that? The city doesn't keep him safe.

Yeah. No, I don't. I think it needs to be more personal than that. Yeah. So. So what I'm thinking of Struthers is he has his family, and he's already betrayed them.

And so.

I hope this articulation will make sense. It's not, like, the clearest thing that I have thought, but the idea is that it's not even like the. On the surface, this guy might kill somebody. I don't know. But it's like, if I don't.

It's the damnation part of it. If I don't act on what I saw, if I let that go, then I'm not the kind of person who can.

I don't know how he thinks about it. Maybe deserve his family or like, that the instability that he feels is going to ruin what he does have left.

That it has to be something where.

Whatever Randall has.

It'S like he's gonna lose everything if he doesn't.

If he doesn't. If he doesn't speak up. Because he's gonna become the kind of person who can't have that thing I'm wondering about. You have that he was on his way back from church.

Which wasn't true. Right. But it was. It was what he came up with.

And so if he is. If the last thing he has left is a code of Conduct inspired by.

Whatever religion he subscribes to. And then he becomes the kind of person who doesn't do that.

Then he loses the last place he actually belongs.

Yeah. Like, I wonder if.

He.

Had a conversation with, like, his pastor before coming in.

Yeah. I did all kinds of stuff that I didn't want to do because it subscribed to the tribe I belong to.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I had a friend who, like.

He did something that. That wasn't like, that bad. You know, it was like.

It was like there was an issue with software licensing.

And the leader of his church was like, if you don't resolve this, you can't have any positions in the church. And so it took it from, like this victimless, who cares kind of thing.

Yeah.

To like, damnation level.

You get exiled from the community if you don't, like, make sure that all of your licenses are in order. Like, it just became very. It was really interesting, you know, and then. And then he's feeling like all of that added pressure because now it's not just like, oh, this is a financial matter. I need to, like, make sure all my ducks are in a row. Now it's like, oh, like, I get shamed if I don't do this. Like, I potentially lose my community. Lose, like, all of the activities that I have going on.

Yeah. And that even. That really shifts the motivation because now.

Internal motivation is not to. He doesn't actually care about what happened. He's trying to stay a part of this thing over here.

Yeah.

And so the reason he's there is all external pressure.

Yeah.

Right. Like we were talking about.

Before, that pushing and pulling. Like he's. He's being pushed. Like Dawson's trying to push him out and something out there is trying to push him in. And I think what you're finding is what's pushing him in.

Yeah. Because it could also be like.

Oh.

Have you heard of that show Bad Sisters?

No.

Holy. You gotta watch this show. This is one of my favorite shows I've seen in a long time.

It's a ten episode run and seven episodes are out. And like, Candace and I are so pissed. We can't just binge it and finish it because we watched all six episodes last weekend. Like, just boom, boom, boom, boom. I mean, so it's about. It opens with this.

This woman's husband is dead. The woman has four sisters. So there's five sisters all together.

And.

It'S one of those that, like, jumps back and forth from real time to past. Right. And so what you very Quickly find out so I'm not ruining anything. Is that this. And they do they show this in, like, the previews and stuff is the sisters are trying to kill him. Oh, okay.

Okay.

So, you know, like, that worked out well. No. You know, he's dead, but you don't know how or why.

Okay.

And even, like, I'm seven episodes in, they're, like, building to how he ultimately died. And then there's this added pressure.

Where the. The insurance that is supposed to be paid out has an investigator that's trying to find out what happened. Oh, still, you should watch Bad Sisters because it's really good. It's on Apple.

Apple, okay. Oh, yeah. That's why I was. Because I was gonna cancel Apple, and then I started scrolling through the catalog and I was like, oh, man, there's.

Some good stuff in there. They've done a good job.

I watched Severance. That was really good.

Oh, man. Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Ryan told me you were watching that. That was another one that was like, whoa, this is really good.

I know. I thought it was gonna wrap stuff up. I finished the last episode and I just texted him, no.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

That was last weekend's activity.

Yeah. Lost its right now. It was getting somewhere with that of just, like, I like this idea. I feel much more like I could connect to it and understand why he's there. Oh, this is what it was. It was like.

You know, there's.

Like. If somebody. Like. If, like, somebody catches somebody and, like, an affair and they say, you tell your partner, or I'm going to. Yeah, right. So now they're in this quandary of.

You know, So, I mean, even in the space of, like, look, you saw something.

Like, I could see that kind of external pressure, too. If, like, he confides in somebody that what he saw, then it's like, you have to.

You have to go tell them because. Because, like, me, as a third party, might give the advice to somebody that they should go report what they saw because I don't have to deal with the consequences. You know what I mean? And then I could definitely see this at the pastoral level, where they're like, this is the right thing to do, so you have to do the right thing, even though they don't have to bear the consequences. Right.

And I'm going to make it easier on you by giving you additional consequences if.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Story Grid podcast. As always, make sure you go to storygrid.com sign up for the newsletter so you don't miss anything happening in the Story Grid universe. If you want to download the transcript for this episode, if you missed anything Danielle and I were talking about or any of the past episodes, you can go to storygrid.com podcast and I would really just like to thank you for continuing to listen to this podcast and be a part of what we're doing here at StoryGrid. This is a really long and tough journey for me as a writer and especially as we continue to grow storygrid behind behind the scenes and so the fact that you keep tuning in and listening means a lot and I hope that you're continuing to get a lot out of listening to this podcast. So if you want to help out the podcast, of course you can tell other writers about the show and you can go to Apple Podcasts and leave us a rating and review. But either way, thanks for being a part of what we do here at Story Grid and we'll see you next week.