Introducing: Story Grid Showrunners Podcast

Hello and welcome to the StoryGrid podcast. This is a show dedicated to helping you become a better writer. My name is Tim Grall and this week I have something really special for you. A while back, three of our Story Grid certified editors, it was our European crew of StoryGrid certified editors got together and started a new podcast. And what's really cool about this podcast is it is focused on television series. So we get a lot of comments and feedback and questions@storygrid.com and one of the regular things that we get is questions about how to think about TV series or how to think about series in generals where they're episodic, where each episode has to stand alone, but at the same time they all have to work together. And how should you do that and how can you evaluate those? And so there is a podcast that they started a while back called the Story Grid Showrunners and it's focused on television and they just wrapped up the end of the first season and they focused on the show Killing Eve, which if you haven't watched it, is amazing. But what's really great is that if you've thought about doing series, if you've thought about writing for television, if you've thought about doing episodic, episodic series of any type, this is going to be a podcast that you're really going to love. So what I decided to do for this week was drop in kind of their wrap up of season one so you can get a feel for what it is. But I recommend that you listen to this and then you go back and listen to all of the episodes so you can find those@storygrid.com you can search for Story Grid showrunners on any of the podcasts. Wherever you get podcasts, you can find it there. So it's a really fun series. I hope you'll enjoy it. Listen to this episode and make sure you go back and subscribe to their podcast. So let's jump in and get started.

Does the story work? That's the question, isn't it? Welcome to the Story Grid Showrunner podcast, dedicated to answering this question by using the Story Grid method developed by Sean Coyne. Every season, Melanie Perul and I will dissect a hit TV series to figure out what works or doesn't work and why. So if you're a writer or an editor and you can carve about 20 minutes out of your busy schedule, push your computer back, pop on the kettle, as Perul would say, and join us as we learn how to make a better Story Two warnings though. This is an adult conversation, so we may use adult words. And we'll be talking about plot points from the Killing Eve television series. So if you haven't seen it yet, you may want to watch it before listening further. Now let's get on with the show.

I have to kill you. I'm really sorry.

I have to do it. Gotta go on my own. I have to kill. Welcome to episode 12, our final episode in this season. Have you watched the whole of series one, Killing Eve? Did you enjoy it? Well, in this series, we're here to help you understand the series from an editor's perspective. Specifically, we're going to be looking at the editor's six core questions. Now, the editor's six core questions are one of two key diagnostic tools from the story Good Universe developed by Sean Coyne. You know, I really think that the six core questions is an incredible way of helping you think of story from an editor's perspective or a showrunner's perspective at whether the story works. We're going to be running down the six core questions for Killing Eve. Specifically, we're going to be looking at the genre, what the genre is and how it works. We're going to be looking at the conventions and obligatory scenes for that genre. We'll be looking at the point of view, what the objects of desire are, what the controlling idea or the theme is. And then we'll be drilling down to the beginning, hook, middle, build and end payoff. Now, the second diagnostic tool, the foolscap, that one pager that explains and analyzes the plot, we're going to make that available in our show notes. So to kick off, we'll look at genre. So.

What is the genre for this? Well, we still believe it's a thriller with a sub genre of serial killer. And we know this because the global value is life and death.

So I gotta. I got something to add here, Parule. Is it serial killer? Because we have an assassin, not a serial killer. I think there's a difference that serial killers kills because he feels something when he kills it, which is the opposite of what Villanelle is. She doesn't feel anything when she kills. I think it's different. She doesn't have. I'm not sure she has a need to kill. It's her job. She wants to do her job. Well, she said that a number of times in the series. It's not a traditional cop pursues a serial killer. It's an MI6 task force pursuing an international assassin.

Well, okay, I see your point, but what I think is that it's just a difference of worldview. So in the end, from a life and death perspective, it's, it's, you know, there is death. Why they do it is because of. Either they have this innate need to do it serial killer, or they have an innate desire for either it's money or power or glory. In this case, I'm not sure. I think she just wants to do a good job.

And so. Yeah, go ahead. No, no.

So. So. So I think. I think this is something we may look at in the future or someone else may look at in the future in the story grid universe, because this is very similar to Me to the Blacklist and a number of other TV series that come out every season where we have some secret, super, secret ninja agent, whether he's powered up or not powered up, and just a normal person pursuing a, you know, a guy that just kills people or something like that, but not necessarily serial killer as an assassin or is. Is a rogue agent or something like that. So I'm wondering if this is another subcategory.

But I get what you're saying for serial killer, for the way genre is broken down in storygrid right now. It probably fits in that category pretty well. I wonder if there's some other conventions and obligatory scenes that would go for this sub subcategory versus serial killer that someone can look at in the future. Maybe us, maybe someone else. But yeah, I just wanted to bring that up. But yeah, I agree. Okay. For now on Serial Killer, go.

I just want to add, I think it's still a serial killer because serial killers are defined by being psychopaths. And Villanelle, like, if you look at her and if you look at how she murders people, it's not just that she's sitting on a building with a rifle and a silencer on it and. Or she's.

Yeah, like doing it all very silently, like a very professional one. But she's having her fun in doing that. And I think that's the part that makes her a psychopath and putting her into a serial killer because she will not just kill the ones she has to, but she's also prepared to kill other people who get into her way.

Like the hospital where she whacked everybody.

What?

Okay, fair enough. Faroul, you had to say something.

I was just thinking about worldview and how worldview is a catalyst. It's like the minute. It's like the minute you color a genre an external genre, with worldview, it changes and it's hard to There are lots of subcategories, I guess, within storygrid. The question is we could have a number of subcategories.

But in this case, I see it as worldview. Just colors the type of serial killer she is. But she's still a serial killer. But yeah, Mel, I like your points as well.

Fair enough.

Gosh, we're so polite on this episode. We're not disagreeing with each other.

Hey, Parul, you got obligatory scenes and conventions next.

Yes. So we've looked at number one, which is genre. Next is obligatory scenes. So the obligatory scenes include, for action, we've got an inciting crime, indicative of a master villain. So it starts off with the foreign diplomat who's assassinated in Vienna. That's the inciting crime.

That kicks us off. But as we just to build on that, as the story goes on, we realize it's one of a long string of assassinations by a master assassin. And actually behind that, we eventually find out about the revelation of the 12. Next we have. Oh, go on, Randall.

No, so the 12, I mean, so I guess you can include that in the inciting incident. But it's so. It's so far deeper into the series. I'm not sure it's part of the inciting incident, though. You're right. It's the big. We don't know what their objective is. So there's this overarching, you know, 12 that's make maneuvering things like a puppet masters in the background. And we have no idea about it. So I guess that is the inciting incident. You're right. I didn't think about that before you mentioned it.

It's one of those things where the first crime that happens. Well, when you look back, you realize that there is. There's probably been some clue about it being wider than like, it's not. I feel like part of the reason she's gone unnoticed for so long is because she has big backing from bad people.

And I suspect that Carolyn sort of knew a little bit about the 12. Really?

Like Epstein.

Yes.

Okay, next we have speech and praise of the villain. So that obligatory scene.

To be honest, we see it a number of places. So I know originally we'd written down Eve's kitchen.

Where Eve and Villanelle talk, and Eve says these lines to Villanelle, but actually speech in praise of the villain. And we've talked about this just more broadly across all stories. It can often be when we see.

A villain get away with something or like a bad guy get away with something, and we see their expertise that they lever. And I feel like in the beginning. Do you remember when Eve is with Carolyn in that, having a gin and tonic early in the morning, and she makes a comment, if someone's this good, they should be able to get away with it. That's quite early on.

Yeah, you're right. It's done a couple times. Really well. In fact, the Eve's Kitchen one is the one we did for the pre. Face for this episode when we did the introduction. So.

Yeah, because it's the one that's very innovative because it's a speech and praise of the villain in front of the villain. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Which. Which. Which, as we'll find out later, it's like. It's because it's what's. It's mingling with a love story. Right. We have someone who wants to empathize and be sweet to everyone. Okay, so next. Go on.

I'm still in doubt that there's a love story here, but we'll get to that later.

Yeah, I mean, it's. It's a strange love story, but there is definitely something there. Hero becomes the victim.

I mean, gosh, there's just so many instances where this happens, but the first time we see it is when Villanelle gives Eve's name at the German sex fetish shop. What's the name of that shop again, Melanie? I don't know.

It's still in Berlin. Just ask someone who lives in Berlin.

They know.

Well, we know the safe word was breakfast.

Yeah.

Breakfast.

It's just ridiculous. But, yeah, the hero becomes a victim. That also continues when Villanelle stalks her, shops for her, breaks into her house. There are a number of scenes, and this is something that I think is recurrent within this series, is that you're never bored because each of these obligatory scenes.

Or the concepts interwoven throughout the entire story, you get multiple. So it's like multiple bites of apple throughout the story.

That's a very good point.

Very well.

Very well said.

Thank you very much. So, but for me, the hero becomes a victim. Very well said, Pru. I'm sorry, I didn't compliment.

It's so polite. Why is this. I don't understand why. Being so polite.

The hero becomes a victim. Is that. Is that a single scene? Instance? Like, because I see the other things that you were mentioning was the hero at the mercy of the villain. That. That's multiple times that happens. But the hero becomes a victim. To me, that's a specific scene. Like, so she's kind of. She's in MI.5. Then she's in MI6. Then she's putting this task force. She thinks she's the person, the big person with all the big guns tracking this person down. And then at that moment when she knows that Villanelle knows who she is, then she becomes the victim pretty much for the rest of the show. Right. Cause she's trying to stop herself from.

Being a victim by her inside. It's almost like the inside. It's like the first. The first time.

Right.

The first bite of the apple. I don't know where I get this analogy from, but it continues, right. As an. It heightens. There's one thing to have your name being put down at a German.

Fetish shop, but then you go shopping and someone's watching you and watches the size you have and sends those clothes to your home with a message that says, sorry, baby, and then breaks into your house. These are different levels of victimhood here.

Yeah.

You know, so I guess, hey, so.

Mel, if you want to. And I think this is pretty legitimate. You can blame the sex fetish thing in Berlin as a Russian thing, because they owned East Berlin for so long. It's just left over from that. And it's not really German. I'll accept that.

Do I live in East Germany? Okay. We were owned by the Russians.

There are no other six Finnish hospitals right here where I maybe have Berlin thing.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. So obligatory scenes. Next one is hero at the mercy of the villain.

So again, there are. There are a few times when Eve is the mercy Villanelle.

But the final episode is probably where we see the biggest scene where Eve and Villanelle are face to face. And while she doesn't seem to present any immediate threat, Villanelle, she's still a serial killer alone with Eve. In the end, it's Villanelle. So it's Eve that stabs Villanelle. But Villanelle still fundamentally has power and dominance in that scene.

I think face of face are just lying next to each other.

Yeah. Face to face. Plus the other things. But yeah, just. Just so that Eve is also at the mercy of villain. When they. When Villanelle's after Frank, that's the first time we see them with a gun. Villanelle points a gun to Eve. Then also when she breaks into her house, there's that scene where she's got her against the fridge and in the.

Bathtub and she's pouring the water over.

Oh, yeah, exactly.

Always have a toilet brush close to you.

Then we have the false ending. We have two endings. So Eve is fired in the airport by Carolyn.

And so that. That is definitely the start of a false ending. I wanted to argue that actually the stabbing in the apartment was a false ending. It's almost like that. Just. It's not even half over.

So. Yeah. So once you guys brought that up and that the fact that Villanelle escaped was the false ending, I could buy that too, because the stabbing wasn't the end of it. We kind of expected the stabbing, maybe a shootout and someone was gonna die, but no, they'd already approved season two five months earlier. So we knew she's gonna survive, and she did escape. So we have to go watch season two.

Yeah.

Maybe it's like slicing of the apple. What? You said Peru. Because at first the operation in Russia is over. They're all. Carolyn sends them back home. So that's like the false ending. The first one, she gets fired. Second false ending. So you have those multiple false ending. And that's what makes it really interesting. Because as a viewer, you just get more and more until you have Eve and Villanelle lying next to each other in bed. Like a scene with which the series ends. And it was. You didn't expect it to end like this, Especially with the knife, then.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, so next we have conventions. We've got the MacGuffin. That's the villain's object of desire. So what is it that.

Eve wants? She wants to be good. No, sorry, hold on a second. That's. Villanelle wants to be good at assassinating. She wants to be good at her job.

We also have the 12. The 12 have a desire object of desire that's hinted at, but we don't actually know what it is. We never find out. I think there's, like, a hint that it might be to take out, like some sort of, like a political power play. We don't exactly know.

And Villanelle, it's also. She wants to be entertained. Right. She's not just doing it to kill people, but to get something out of it for her own personality to express herself.

Maybe. I don't know. I feel like it's an internal thing. She's just a bit messed up and looking for validation and found it in Constantine in the 12. But I think you could be right as well. I don't know. Maybe it's open to.

Murders are all committed differently.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Always finding a new way to murder someone.

That is true. It's true. Yeah. She wants to do her job and creatively. Next convention, there must be investigative red Herrings. So this is where the clues that lead the investigators down a garden path. So, you know, going up to the diplomat's girlfriend, Nadia, who gets in the way trying to find Nadia in prison. Randall.

Yeah, so I think I. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe Ace can correct me here, but I think the red herrings are missing in this a little bit. Or they're actually replaced by.

The fact that every time they do get a clue, Villanelle eliminates it. And that's what I was. That's what I wrote this note, basically, you know, the diplomat's girlfriend's a clue. We're gonna go interview her. And then Villanelle kills the whole hospital. Nadia's a clue. She's in prison. And then Nadia gets assassinated. You know, Frank's a clue. Frank's a clue. We're gonna go interview Clue. And then Frank gets, you know, killed. And with his knob in his. What is it? The knob in his mouth or whatever they. Whatever. However he got killed. So I think. I think there's less. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, there's less red herrings in this. As for a thriller that would lead someone to think that someone else is responsible. I don't think anyone thinks that anyone's responsible for the killings, except for Villanelle, except when they figure out about the 12. And so maybe Villanelle is the red herring for the 12 until they figure out that the 12 exists. What do you guys think?

I think in the beginning, we have the misleading. Well, the red herrings are therefore misleading someone. And in the beginning, we are misled because no one believes Eve, that it's a female assassin.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

That's a good point.

So we have that in the beginning. But I agree with what you said about all the witnesses get killed.

There is something I'm trying to think of in this, in the series, how we. The things that we believe are true that aren't for me, it's like Carolyn as well. So I agree with you, Randy.

But also, like, there's Carolyn. We believe in Carolyn, and then we have reason to suspect her.

And then it's a 12. Yeah. So. Yeah, I think you're right.

Okay, next. Okay, next convention. Making it personal. So that's a. That's. I love this convention because that's when you really can up the threat level. So a good example. Yep. Is when Villanelle is in Eve's kitchen and threatens her husband. That is. That is Eve's weakness is her husband. That's where she can get really affected. I think also, to be honest, killing Bill made it very, very personal.

So I think. Yeah, I'm sorry. Thank you. I think that it was. It was. The best part of what is personal is in the very last episode when it's a face off between Villanelle Constantine, she's got his daughter, and. And Eve. And Eve's got the gun. She's like, you don't know how to use that. She's like, you're right. She puts it down and.

It'S when she says. What was the exact words? Mel, help me out. When she's like, I loved you. And then I loved you too, or something.

Betray me. Don't betray me.

Oh, don't betray me. And you too. Right. So I think that's part of. I think that's part of the big. Really. When everyone really, really sees it on screen, the personal level.

So the person. For me, making it personal is when the villain.

Makes it clear that they're after. They will hurt. And personally, the protagonist, assuming they're the good guy who's investigating, is it personal risk? So not just their life, but someone that they love. So that scene is good, but for me, this one where she threatens her husband is far more scary. That's when Eve really realizes how much she's putting at risk. Melanie.

And I think the scene where Bill is killed is making it the most personal because in the last episode.

It'S revealed Willa now tells Eve she killed Bill because Bill slowed her down.

Slowed Eve down. Right.

Yeah.

What's made it personal? But you just. As a viewer, you get it revealed.

Just a little later, right at the end. Yeah. No, no, you're right that.

It'S bloody personal. And you see, that's the reason, as we were discussing earlier, that's the reason that Eve doesn't stab the. Sorry. Eve doesn't get seduced by Villanelle.

Because it's not a love story.

I think it is. I think it is. Me too.

Clock.

Two against one. Okay. Last. Last. Yeah. Clock. Clock. We have a clock. We have lots of different clocks, actually. So one of the clocks is. That is actually just trying to get hold of Eve. But there. There are a lot. You know, there's for example, a clock when we know that, you know, we talked about clues that are being eliminated. There's also smaller clocks that are put in place where we have to try. We as an Eve and her gang have to try and get or save someone before they get murdered. And they often fail. But I.

And then we have the we don't actually have a clock for the 12, do we? We have no sense of how long we have until the 12 are trying to do something Right.

I think that. I think that. I think it's very apparent that there's a. There's a master plan in the background somewhere. And if we don't, you know, figure out. Get ahold of Eve and talk to her and figure that plan out, whatever she knows, I don't think she knows much. But find out, maybe she. Maybe she can lead him to Constantine, which can lead them to the next person or whatever. If they don't figure that out, something bad's gonna happen. There's this.

They already have Constantine. They already have Constantine.

They just don't really know he's a bad guy. Right?

Yeah.

Yeah. So I think there's a. There's a. There's. Behind the scenes, there's this sense that there's. There's a bad thing going to happen if they don't stop the 12.

And almost every single episode, there is someone dying or multiple people dying, and there is always a sense of urgency.

Which makes it amazing. Right, next we have point of view.

Point of view. I'll take point of view. Thanks, Farul. Every scene of the Killing Eve of the series is. Every single scene, as far as I can tell, has either Eve pilastery or Villanelle presentation for the most part. I mean, there's a couple scenes where he's talking on the phone to Kenny or something like that, but as far as I'm concerned, they're both in the same scene because they're having a conversation on the telephone. But for the most part, I can't really think of anything where one or the other is not present. And that's really, really important because you get information from Villanelle's point of view, you get information from E's point of view, and the viewer knows everything, and it builds this whole tension up because one character doesn't know that the other character's coming. The other character doesn't know what the first character is doing in the background to facilitate her capture or something like that. And I think that's really well done on the screenwriter's part to build that tension.

Yeah, I totally agree. The dramatic drive is amazing.

We're constantly at the edge of our seat trying to understand. Trying to figure out when these clashes are going to occur, when people will come to realize what we have already seen, we have already understood.

So, yeah, I mean, in a book, I think if someone was writing this In a novel, they would. I really think that Luke Jennings missed a really good option to write it from both points of view. I think it would have made the books. The books are good, but I think they could have been a lot better with this dramatic irony that we have in the TV show.

Absolutely. Okay, next. Objects of desire.

Yeah, objects of desire. So wants and needs, external and internal. For the protagonist, Eve, since we're talking as the Eve is the protagonist, though I think we may agree that both of them may be the protagonist. In the end. You have. Basically, Eve's trying to stop Villanelle for a variety of reasons. She's trying to stop him from killing all these people and solve the mystery of who the 12 is. Eventually, when she does discover who the 12 is.

But she's not. She's not a hundred percent involved, especially later on in capturing her. She's really fascinated by Villanelle and she wants to study her. You guys have this theory that it's a love story. I lean towards a different direction of where she has a. Maybe a. Wants to be like Villanelle. She wants to study her and feel what it likes to kill somebody and things like that. Whichever obsession it is, it is an obsession. Whether it's an obsession to be like her and be. Or it's a love obsession. That's the internal need that she eventually figures out is what she really wants. She doesn't want to kill her and stop her as much as she wants to understand her and be with her. Go ahead, Pearl.

I was going to say. So I agree. She obviously wants something from Villanelle. The way that you told the difference between whether she just wants to be her or wants to be with her is the sexual element. So the fact that she says, I can't stop thinking about you. And then because Villanelle says, what is it? Something like, I haven't stopped touching myself or something. She makes some sort of sexual comment.

Now, that's because Phoebe Waller Bridge is writing this.

Right, right. But Eve as a character could have been like, oh, disgusting.

Go away.

She absorbs it.

But that feeds into why I think she says, I can't stop thinking about you. She doesn't say anything sexual to me. That's not sexual necessarily. It can be. But in this case, she wants to feel what it likes to kill someone, which I think is why she eventually stabs her. You know, she wants to feel that.

I mean. Yeah, I see what you're saying. I think that the love story as well. Yeah. The last story will come to it. Is definitely different. And it's light, But I don't think you can argue that the sexual tension between them.

Watch me.

Or just remember how Eve described Villanelle. Like, she didn't say, like, she's a tall woman, but she's like, she's using all those words that make her sound so, like, flattering so beautifully.

She's obsessed with her. I get it. I don't. I just don't think she's in love with her. I think she's obsessed with her lifestyle. She's obsessed with all the cool stuff she buys.

Love story, not in love. In love is different. Love story does not have to include in love, but it has to include. It can start with desire. So in the desire phase, you can still just be attracted to someone. Different levels.

Yeah. Attraction comes for desire before desire. Yeah, I feel there's something like the sparks flying.

I will agree to disagree with you young ladies.

There is a subtlety of love. Definitely of the love story genre. Not love, but the love genre.

So moving on to the fifth core question, we got Mel and the controlling idea and the theme. Oh, you got something left? Parole.

Just quickly. Because I've noticed that in terms of what.

What Eve wants, I think internally, her object of desire is to find meaning. So from a worldview perspective, it's to find meaning. Because I think she's bored. We've talked about this before. She's bored with her life, and I guess she's interested in psychology. She isn't a killer. She couldn't hurt a fly. But she's fascinated by killers for some reason.

And even before she met Villanelle, she was fascinated by killers. But there's something about the chase that makes her feel alive and leads her to even abandon her husband just for that feeling of meaning.

Yeah.

And I think desire heightens that. I don't think it's the core element of it. But thinking that the person who's killing is also slightly attractive helps.

Jodi's not very attractive.

Jodie Comer. Are you joking?

All right, Mel.

Okay, let's talk about the fifth core question. The controlling idea of theme. Like, the theme is telling us or the reader. Like, it's the takeaway. Like, what's the story actually about? Robert McKee defines it as the controlling idea, as a climatic value charge of the entire story. It can end positively or negatively. Means it could be a prescriptive tale or a cautionary tale, like what you should avoid doing in the case of a thriller. We have the global values that range between life and Death and reach even the fate worse than death, which is damnation.

The main controlling ideas are just going to mention them quickly. Life is preserved when the protagonist unleashes her gift and saves the victims. Or death Ordination triumphs when the protagonist fails to unleash her gift and does not save the victims. Now, what's the ending for killing Eve? Does it end positive or negative? Well, at first Villanelle gets away, but that's something that's not that good. Another serial killer. She's still on the loose. And I don't think life is preserved because of that. She's still on the run. We are left wondering. Well, actually, we are not left wondering. We believe that Villanelle will survive. So what about damnation for Eve? She has unleashed her gift because she psychoanalyzed Villanelle, which brought her so close to that woman so that she could even stab her. But it was because of Bill, as you already mentioned, that that's why she did not get herself seduced by Villanelle, but she stabbed her. So what's the controlling idea now? How can we sum it up? I think like, if we consider Eve as a protagonist, then I came up with like, damnation can be avoided if the hero sticks to her moral compass and renounces her own feelings in order to bring a killer to justice. Even by failing to kill her or by failing to bring her in.

I think it's a really good analysis, Mel. I couldn't have said it better. I wouldn't have said it better myself. You did? Really? That was really awesome.

Thank you. You're so nice.

What is this nice?

It's New Year's.

Yay.

Take me to the hole.

Yeah, I like it now.

Okay, perfect. So let's move on to the six core question. What's the beginning hook, the middle build and ending payoff. Like Perul already said in the beginning. We have talked about it in the episodes 4, 10 and 11. If you just want to replay them. Otherwise, we have prepared the full scab for you that you can download in our show notes. That's why now I'm just focusing on the global story. Short sum up of the Five Commandments. And it goes like this. When an MI5 security operative receives the opportunity to hunt down a female serial killer that turns the tables and threatens her in her own house, she has to decide whether to keep investigating or step back from a job that could get everyone close to her killed. She follows her own investigation, breaks rules, loses her colleague, friend and her job, but achieves it to Badly wound the villain.

I think that's well said. Except I personally would have said change serial killer to assassin.

Alright, I glad you're there.

Great.

Yeah, that's a good sum up.

Great. So next, does this episode work? Does it work.

As a thriller? Does the whole series work? So it's actually. Does the whole series work?

Yeah. Does the whole series work? I think that as a thriller it definitely works. I mean it's got all the elements there somewhere in some innovative ways. I think that's really awesome. Tons of action, lots of assassinations. Because that's what it's about. It's about an assassin. Super interesting characters that are multi level. And also, you know, it's really hard to identify, you know, the shades of gray they have in there. It's hard to pinpoint. Like you're a bad guy, you're a bad guy, you're a bad guy. There's definitely a couple bad guys in there. But then, I mean even Constantine, you know, he's got his daughter and his family he's worried about. So there's always something to like about everybody. And then there's a surprising inevitable end. I think too that's not gonna be the end because there's gonna be another season. What'd you guys think about as a thriller?

I agree with you. I think it's nonstop. I think what they've done well is layer in with all the obligatory scenes. Multiple bites of the apple. Yeah, I feel silly saying that, but that's what they do.

A couple worms and some seeds. But bites of the apple.

Bites of the apple, they do it multiple times. You don't just get one praise of the villain. You don't just get one hero at the mercy, the of mercy of the villain. I mean, obviously you have to have the core one, but it's layered so that by the time you get to the end, you really feel that Eve has gone through the mill. Like she's really been harassed. You really feel that it's personal.

I think this is a trope maybe of TV series. Because if you think about like the Batman, he's always at the mercy of the villain in every episode. Tune in next week. Will Batman escape the big giant saw that's going to saw his head off or whatever. Right. I mean that's kind of the, that's the trope of a really good thrilling series that they, that people want to watch.

But why is this different? Why does this work so well? And I would argue that because they lace in love the love genre. So the question does it work as a love story? Well, it isn't primarily a love story. It turns on action. It turns on life and death. However, what love adds is an interesting layer of intrigue. It gives us tension, it gives us narrative drive.

It's love as a secondary genre, with desire.

Sorry, attraction as a subgenre. But it only goes as far as confession of feeling, so that by the end, they confess.

To each other in varying degrees and we're left gone.

I think it's love obsession.

Love obsession.

Yeah, because that's subcategory obsession. Love. Subcategory obsession.

Sorry, sorry. Yes, I meant. Yeah, you're right. I got it confused. You're right. It's obsession. Yeah. One has a shallow but intoxicating passion for another that leads to clear danger for the beloved. That's pretty much it. Yeah. So normally. Normally we'd expect that to end in tragedy, and I think it seems like it might do.

Mel, I just want to add that I think, like, the love story, the element, the subtle element that we have in there, that's also the power that makes the thriller. Not that you can foresee what's gonna happen, because people do stupid things when they're in love, even when they have those sparkling feelings and they feel this attraction.

Yeah. Yeah.

So even if you're an ML agent, or if you are an assassin or a serial killer or ninja, you do something else, like when you're in love. And that's why it's unpredictable.

Yeah. And that last scene is perfect. That is exactly what happens in the last scene. I don't know that I knew what was gonna happen. I don't think I knew at all.

I mean, if Game of Thrones hadn't ended just a month before this came out, it would have been so innovative. But Game of Thrones stole different.

It's different, though. It's different, though. This villain is way is a bit more crazy. She's never had a redeeming feature. Whereas, like, the Queen of Dragons did. Have. We have seen her being a lot sweeter and kinder in the beginning.

Oh, yeah. When she was slaughtering whole towns.

No, she did have a soft. I mean, I like that character a lot. I didn't see the one where she started getting crazy, but.

Well, she was like, from the beginning, like, whoever got in her way got killed, so it was already prepared.

But she's. Would you. I would argue that she wasn't. She's not as crazy as Jodie Comer. Jadie Comer's character.

I disliked Daenerys Much more. I don't dislike Villanelle, so I can't argue with that.

Villanelles only killed like a dozen people or two dozen people. Daenerys killed like five or ten whole towns and cities.

Gosh, she's the most serial killer base.

All right, that's another debate. Tune in next week when we'll discuss Game of Thrones versus Villanelle.

So does this series work from a worldview perspective?

Mel?

I think it does. We have the. If you look at the world fear value spectrum, you have naivete, then cognitive dissonance when you know that something's off, but you can't quite figure it out. And then it moves to sophistication. Eve, in her job as a security officer, she is very naive in everything. How she handles this operation, being in a secret task force. She has no idea what Carolyn is talking about when she's using those. This.

Spy language. So she has to learn about that. She has to learn that if you investigate an assassin or a serial killer, you might endanger your life and the lives around you. She doesn't even consider that. She's just. She just is there for the thrill of it. Little like Villanelle. Yeah, Randy.

So I just came up with this, so it's just off the cuff here. So Eve chose the people that chose her name. So Eve from Adam. And Eve being naive, taking the apple, but also the end of naive is Eve. Oh, the apple. Right. But the end of naive is Eve.

Yes.

Okay, keep going. Sorry.

Yeah, I sort of see it.

Yeah, well. And Eve has to learn the hard truth. You can't trust your bosses. Like Frank betrayed her, and she has no idea what Caroline is up to. So Eve decided to go to Paris by herself. She has endangered the relationship with her husband by willingly putting him in danger. Even he told her that he's scared. But she just couldn't stop her own investigation. Even after Bill was killed. She's so intrigued by Villanelle, Feels like Nico is holding her back. So she wants to, like this object of desire of hers to stop. Not just stop Villanelle, but study her kind of thing. Like what we already mentioned. Yes, Rennie, good point you made there. And that pushes her forward. But at the end of the episode, you can see that Eve's broken somehow. She's stronger, but she's still naive because she makes certain decisions that she thinks are the right thing to do. Or maybe sometimes she's not even thinking about it. And then the consequences hit her, like, right in the moment. Like she stabs Melanelle. And then, oh, I didn't want to do that. Like, how do I react now? That's like she's caught up in her own actions that surprise her. So she's not able to think through something straight. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think in this worldview value spectrum, she was naive. She's still naive somehow, but she's reached the first level of cognitive dissonance where she sees like everything that's around her. It has another level to it, like what Caroline is doing, what the 12 might be doing, what Willinel could be thinking. So there's more going on and she kind of starts to see that now.

Right. She understands the gray that exists in this very. She's entering a murky world where I trust people.

So I think as a virtue story, it works because we have this.

The tiny development of character in it.

I think it's great. That's great. Mel and I agree. And I think, man, the whole. I mean, if you put it all together, the series was fantastic and phenomenal. I thought it was great. And.

I hope they do great with the second series. But we're gonna find out about that, I guess.

Yeah. I mean.

The thing that's been intriguing me is how they've made it just so addictive because you have lots of. Like you mentioned, there are lots of stories where you have action, non stop action and non stop killing. And I think it's love and worldview that have helped layer in.

A new sort of drive. It makes it all the more intriguing because you can't. I think they also a viewer. You're confused about what you want. Do you want justice served or do you want to see lovers confess Love gets rather confusing.

Yeah.

Which is why it's so wonderful.

Great. So next we're going to be talking about some of our favorite scenes. What are your favorite scenes in.

Series one, Season one?

Well, I'll kick this off. So I love.

I love saying take me to the hole. I think that's an awesome scene phrase. I love the. I just really fascinated about Bill's death scene.

It was such a shocking.

And terror moment. Like you saw it happening and you weren't believing it because he seemed to be a main character and a mentor in her life. And then if you evaluate this as a story grid, you're like, oh, the mentor's gotta die. But it was so soon. It was in the third episode. Right. And it was so soon in the series and I didn't expect it at all. And then the way she did it was Just, you know, she smiled at him and he turned around. He's like, oh, there's a serial killer in front of me. Assassin in front of me. I better move. And then she's just like, with the knife right in front of Eve pretty much. And that was just an awesome. It was just a really, really well done thought out scene. And then the last one with the comedy of Eve trying to better Constantine's kid with the languages. Like, you don't know Japanese, do you? And stuff like that.

Yeah, go ahead, Mel.

I just wanted to add to Bill's death scene, like the episode where Bill Steph is at the end in this club. They prepared Bill's death very well because in the beginning, they showed him like, oh, look, he has a little baby. And that made it all so more traumatic because he had this. They showed him with this beautiful life that he had. He had a younger.

Woman. They had a baby, and it was like, all perfect. And then they killed him.

And then you also brought this up in the episode when we talked about that, where he's talking to his babies like, daddy's gonna die.

It was foreshadowing. There was a lot of foreseeable shadowing in it, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. My favorite scene is when Villanelle's sitting on that couch in a pink dress because that's when we first get to see some of her craziness. You know, when he says, how are you feeling? She's like, I'm okay. Just have a heavy period.

You know, you wouldn't think that she's being spoken to by her. The 12 who are asking her to do multiple killings. And then also because in that same scene, we see how she reacts when they show her a picture of a woman with curly hair. And we see that we start to understand some of her weaknesses. So a lot of that is, like, exposition of the character and understanding her worldview.

You know, it's amazing what Phoebe Waller Bridge did. Or was she the writer, too, of this?

She was, yeah. She was leading this.

It's amazing what she did with this because there's so much more depth and interesting things happening in this TV series than we're in the book. The book is very, for me, was very linear. I mean, she was a super superbly trained assassin. And she went in assassin, killed people and did him in fantastic ways. And Eve was trying to catch her. And really, the first half of the. It's a novella is about, you know, vill nils training and stuff. And the second half, Eve kind of appears and there's and even. Even the things that are in the book aren't as awesome as the TV series. The visuals and the actual killings are not the same. I just think there's. I think the screenwriter, you know, Phoebe and whoever else helped her, if anyone helped her, did such. Yeah.

I think she had a writer's room and Luke Jennings was part of the writings room, I think.

Yeah, I'm sure he was. But, I mean, he must have been going, that's a great idea. I should have put that in my book. I mean, I hope he doesn't listen.

To this, but.

I mean, book two, he does bring some. He starts writing differently, it starts to follow. I think the series starts to follow his book after season two.

Next, Melanie, what's your favourite?

Initially, I wanted to say Take me to the Hole too, because I really liked in the prison, how it all.

Take me to the hole.

Yeah. How it all turned out differently, as Villanelle expected the first time that she followed her job instructions. But the more I think about it, I have to confess, I have a thing about bathrooms because I love the scenes. The first one, Eve is sweating.

Yeah.

And then later, Frank was threatening Villanelle. With the pleasure. No, with a toothbrush there.

Oh, the toothbrush. The toothbrush.

Yeah. So I think that's what just. It was just amazing. Every.

Actually, the other one that you reminded me of, Mel, when we were going through the episodes was when.

Villanelle picks up that older lady and says, I'm gonna call you Eve. And now you. You. I'm gonna hide and then you come find me.

Yeah. God, I hate that. So, yeah, that was so good and so terrible. So cringy.

That was great.

All right, we got a love story there again.

Whatever.

All right, viewers, what was your favorite scene in Killing Eve? You know, send us a comment@storygrid.com or storygrid sgshowrunners.com that's a wrap, guys. That's a wrap for Killing Eve. That's a wrap for season one. Yay.

Good job. Thanks for all our listeners for all this time. I really appreciate it. We'd love to hear your comments.

So please send us your comments and suggestions through storygood.com or sgshowrunners.com leave US ratings and reviews on whichever podcast platform you use. Our next episode is going to be a special event. We're going to discuss the six core questions for the whole series of Killing Eats season two, discuss why it worked, why it didn't work, was it better than season one and why? Or was it worse than season one and why, so please don't miss that. Our next season will begin in February 2020 and we'll be discussing the Netflix series called the Umbrella Academy, so you can start watching it now if you'd like. We got a little bit of a different format which we'll discuss in our next episode after we we go through Killing you Season two. For more information, videos and articles on the Story grid, go to storygrid.com and if you want to connect to any of us editors directly, links to our webpages can be found in the show notes and the Killing Eve theme song, which is at the beginning of this episode, was by the Chicotic Beats. And last but not least, last but not least, thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time. Say bye guys.

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