Talent, Inspiration and Blue Collar Work

Hello and welcome to the StoryGrid masterwork experiment. Before we get started today, I wanted to let listeners know about Storygrid Live, a gathering of writers serious about the craft of story. It's happening September 13th and 14th, 2019 in Nashville, Tennessee. Story grid has grown into a movement followed by tens of thousands of writers from all over the globe who are serious about their craft. This weekend event is going to be full of information, inspiration and expertise, along with some food, fun and nerdery with your fellow storygridders. StoryGrid LIVE 2019 is the place to be for writers looking to deepen and grow their expertise in the craft of storytelling. It's time to step out of your routine to spend two days alongside other writers and storytellers like you. This is a chance not only to learn, but to connect with other amazing writers. Sean Coyne and Tim Grohl will be presenting along with special guest Steven Pressfield. I'll be there, and I hope you will too. Find out more@storygrid.com live. That's storygrid.com live. Now, on with our regular introduction. My name is Anne Hawley and I'm an experienced novelist trying to ground my craft more solidly in StoryGrid methodology. So I have agreed to be the lab rat in the Masterwork Experiment, which Sean Coyne is conducting as a test of his latest writing and editing methods. In the Masterwork Experiment, Sean and I have analyzed Brokeback Mountain down to the beat level, and last week I went away feeling discouraged by the requirement to kill one of my characters. Many conversations and much soul searching later, I came up with an outline for a story that I could live with, but it felt like a franken story assembled from somebody else's parts, and I didn't see any way to give it life. Sean's response to this conundrum is a rousing speech on talent, inspiration, and the blue collar work of the writer. That's really the only thing the muse respects and resistance hates. In this episode, I deliver my outline and my new Point of View narrative device and face the task of roughing out a draft in the next three weeks. Please note that there's a bit more strong language here than you usually find on this podcast, so put on your white coat, safety goggles and earphones if you're listening around little kids, and step into the laboratory for episode eight of the Masterwork Experiment.

So, shall we get started with episode.

Eight of the Masterwork Experiment?

Sure, sure, let's do it today.

And only two more after this to go And I have spent the most difficult writing week that I can remember in a long time struggling with what to do. Now, you'll see that I didn't really give you a lot of writing this week. I gave you an outline. We can talk about that in a sec. But what I struggled and struggled with, and I was talking to all of my writer friends and all of my gay friends, a lot of which overlap there, and really fighting this idea that I have to write the same story as Annie Proulx. Well, after a lot of discussion yesterday, I got this insight about how I could do it in a way that I could live with. Right. And I sent you that outline. We can talk about it. But the problem is all my anxiety about the project went away when I came up with this notion, this outline that I have. And my point of view, narrative device.

Yeah.

But the spark went out of it. It's like, I don't care about it. I can do it. I don't care about it anymore. And so I have this feeling that I'm kind of like. It's like I'm a journey worker. I can build something from the parts that I've been given, but it feels lifeless. And I feel like I'm just taking parts and constructing a story robot, like, kind of Franken's story.

Right.

And I'm concerned about, like, turning it into a real boy. You know, making it something that I feel that I. That how do we give it life?

Okay, that's a really great question. And it's something that I've been thinking about for 25 years, so I can give you some thoughts about it. And I think it really boils down to sort of this. This two part, sort of global gestalt that we kind of all have when we talk about art. And art being anything from a story to statue to a painting, to, you know, how you raise your kids or how you deal with your partner or whatever. So there's sort of two schools of thought about it. And the first school that there's a thing that's called talent. And talent is this thing, this sort of supernatural touching of one shoulder or something upon birth or prior to birth in some supernatural spiritual world that once you come into yourself as a human being on earth, this quote unquote, talent will start to create things. And the way it creates things is through something called inspiration. And inspiration is an irrational force, meaning that the artist lets themself connect with a higher realm of being. And that higher realm of being enters into the embodiment of the person and directs them towards creating a work of art. So it's almost this theory that art comes through the vessel of the artist, but the artist has no control over the inspiration or the supernatural element that flows through them. So this is sort of this romantic idea that a lot of us were raised with. And I think a lot of people today still believe in to some degree. And I think there's some truth to it. I really do, because I think the way things occur to us and the way we get inspired and the way we get passionate is a mystery. Right? We don't understand where those thoughts and ideas that come to us that are what are called insights, we don't know where the insights come from. So, you know, like the Greeks of yore, the concept of the muse is a really cool one because it gives an identity to a force that is inexplicable. Okay, so that's one part of the artistic creation, sort of mythic model. Now the other part of the inspirational artistic creation is that of the willful workhorse model. And this is where no one has any talent. And all you have to do is follow particular recipes for art. So if you're able to sort of create a feature list, if you will, of the structural, organizational, foundational structures of particular works of art and then just mimic that structure, that you will be able to create a work of art. That is in many ways the description of this masterwork experiment. Right? So it's an experiment because we're testing the concept of blue collar work creation where someone with a will that would be you, works with somebody who also has a will that would be me, to pull out the structural, functional organization of a masterwork, which is Brokeback Mountain. Okay, so let me just take a quick sidestep here and explain something else that's kind of cool and interesting. And I. I heard this from somebody a long time ago and it stuck in my mind. And it's very, very helpful if I ask you to explain to me what a bird is. Chances are you're going to give me a feature list. You're going to say, well, a bird has two legs, it has wings, it has a beak, it flaps its wings, and that's how it generates enough force to be able to fly into the air. It has baby birds and. Etc. Etc. So you sort of give me a long list of the anatomy and the features of what it is to be a bird. And so if I were some sort of scientist, I would say to myself, oh, great, okay, let me go get all these materials. I'LL get some wings, I'll get some feathers, I'll get a beak, I'll get some, you know, morphological matter that I can meld together. And then all I have to do is put all that stuff together on a tray, throw it up in the air and it will start to fly. And we both know that doesn't happen, right? Because the feature list neglects to offer an explanation or a way to bring about the gestalt of a bird, which means that sort of super secret self organizational thing or force within a being that gives it the ability to grow and change. Okay, so what we do is we have these two bodies of thought. We've got the artistry as supernatural phenomena thinkers, and then we've got the no such thing as talent thinkers who are all about blue collar work. Now what I suggest is that it's neither one or the other, that it's sort of akin to science and the humanities coming together in a consilience that provides for all of the missing materials. So the story grid sensibility and methodology is obviously skewed to the scientific blue collar no talent paradigm. And I believe that that's a great place to start. And the reason being that just as we can't really understand what gives us insight, we don't really understand what attracts us to particular activities. Right. For whatever reason, Ann is attracted to stories.

Yeah, God help me.

God help you, right? When you were born, you probably heard stories and you're like, that's my thing. And you didn't, you know, sort of pinpoint it exactly until you came into yourself. And then you were probably like, you know what? I really want to explore stories. I'm going to have to figure out some way to do that. So the proclivity to being a story enthusiast was something that you are inherently born with in your case. Now other people are born with wanting to be a great golfer or wanting to be the finest engineer. And I think each one of us has sort of this clue within us. And the way to discover that proclivity is to just think about what you enjoy and what fascinates you. So I think in many ways that's a supernatural gift. That is your quote, unquote, in my estimation, you are born with that talent. Now, whether or not you can create works of art in your chosen field is really up for the debate. And you can do one of two things. You can either sit back and say, well, if it's meant to be, it's meant to be. I'm going to sit here and sort of Commune with the universe. And if I'm a quote unquote, good person or, you know, the gods are smiling upon me, maybe the muse will descend upon me in some inspirational moment that will allow me to sort of spit out a work of art in a feverish flurry of hard work that's extremely satisfying. Okay, that's one way to do it. The other way to do it is, you know what I'm going to find out the feature list of my desire. What is inside a story? What is the structural, functional, organizational structure of story? How can I work through that so that I can start practicing how to create that sort of thing? And perhaps while I'm in the process of working through that analytical and blue collar work, perhaps as I'm doing that, I may reach some inspiration that comes to me from God knows where and perhaps that will allow me to continue on the path that I've chosen to, which is to write wonderful stories. So that's sort of my point of view about creation and story creation, is that when we are working, when we are applying our blue collar ethic to our work, we're getting in the chair every day, we're cranking through our words, we're thinking about our problems, the little things that we have to solve. Those are the moments, as Steve Pressfield says, when the muse sort of, hey, there's Ann again. You know, I'm going to check tomorrow, see if she's there again. And then there she is again. You know, maybe, you know, I got five minutes, maybe I'll sit down for a minute and watch what she's doing. And in that five minutes, guess what happens to Ann? Ann enters a flow state. And a flow state is a very scientifically researched and true phenomena, factual phenomena, in which a person enters a mindful state in which they are able to create and solve problems through multiple insights over time in their specific skill set. It's sort of that moment when the WNBA player hits the 35 foot jump shot at the end of the game to win the game. She knows, just get me the ball. Somebody's got to get me the ball. I'm going to win the game for us. And so they give her the ball and guess what? She's in flow. And she hits the shot and they win the game. She's known it all along because she's operating at this level of creativity, applying all of the skills that she's developed over X number of years, learning how to play basketball, learning how to dribble, learning how to jump, learning how to pass all that stuff comes together in this beautiful moment when she is able to solve that pretty much virtually impossible idea of shooting a ball 35ft through the air, through a net, to win a game under tremendous pressure. So the flow state is sort of where we all want to become and where we want to be comfortable, because that's the time when this spiritual force, the muse, starts to help us. So what does this have to do with the fact that Ann's lost her mojo for this story? Well, I can only say this. You lost your mojo for a week, you might lose it for a month, who knows? But I do know this to be true. If you continue to apply your blue collar work to the problem at hand, what you will discover is that you will get back that love. And I gotta say this, Ann, when I read your outline and I came up and I read your solution to the narrative device problem, I got goosebumps.

Awesome.

I'm like, she nailed it. That's exactly it. Now, here could be. I'm not trying to go Sigmund Freud on you, but this might be something for you to consider or think about. I could be completely off the mark, but just, you know, take it in and do with it what you wish. Sometimes what happens when we get a very, very keen, delicious, incredible insight that solves quite a number of our problems? We fall into a pit, and that pit is sort of, oh, that's not a problem anymore. These other problems don't seem that big anymore. I already solved the big problem. Do I really just want to go through the motions of whatever executing this idea? You hit this place, and this is where resistance doubles down on your ass. It can kill you because it's going to tell you lies. It's going to sing this song that's total to you. It's going to tell you this is really. Isn't that good. It's. It's fine. By the time I get it done, I guess it'll be okay. But is it really what I want to be doing with my life is executing this sort of pseudo idea that I'm. Let's face it, I'm really just basically ripping off Annie Proulx. So I guess whatever I create is really never going to measure up to that anyway. And on and on and on and on. And I'm saying I'm projecting something onto you that may or may not be true, but the reason I'm doing it is because it happens to me all of the time.

It's pretty accurate, really.

Okay.

Accurate.

There.

Yeah.

Well, you gotta Name. You gotta name the monster so that you can fight the monster. And that's a excuse, the expression, an MF of a monster. Yeah, because it's so fucking smart, isn't it? It's so rational. It's so insightful, and you really want to start believing it. And it also, guess what, it also gets you to do, to stay the same. It gets you to not change yourself at all. You get to be who you always were. And it sucks to change. It's hard. A lot of the people that you love don't like you anymore when you change. That's just the facts. And that's what really hit me in the war of art is when I was working with Steve on that and he wrote about, hey, you know what? Resistance just doesn't come as a metaphysical force. Resistance comes from external forces, too. It comes from your drinking buddies who are mad that you're not coming out to the bar on Thursday nights because you're writing. That kind of stuff can really, really make you stay the same. It's a lesson that Steve talks about all the time in the war of art. And he'd be the first one to say, man, I succumb to resistance a million times a day because it's just so smart and rational, and I believe it to be true. And the point, I think, of this whole resistance idea is that there are forces in physics. They're resistance forces, they're constraints, right? So if I want to get to the store to buy, you know, a jug of milk, there's a lot of things that are constraining me from doing that. I have to get the car key, I have to get in the car. I have to drive to the car. So there are these constraints that are trying to keep us from moving forward, from applying energy, from creating causal effects that can change the world. And that is this monster that Steve has wisely called resistance. So when we find ourselves in these places where the rational, the reasonable is telling us, stop, don't do it. This is. Don't create this thing, because it's just crap. It's just some stupid exercise that. Who cares? That's when you know you're doing good work. That's when you know it's time to double down and kick that monster in the ass. Because that is what that monster is doing to you right now. It's saying, and this is dumb. This isn't really a truthful story. This is you manufacturing something from a recipe. Be. That's. And you want to be a real artist. You don't want to be one of these hack artists, right? You want to be that person who has this incredible insight that comes from God knows where. And you create this incredible original thing that nobody has ever seen before and you get the Nobel Prize. Now, I know that's, you know, really going out to the outer limits of it, but that is a force that we all have within us. And it's not a good force. It's not in it for us to win it. It's in it to keep us doing nothing, Sitting on our ass and not trying, not creating something. So when push comes to shove, you gotta ask yourself the question. Question. If I listen to this voice, will it aid in the creation of something that has never been done before or made before? Or will it destroy the process by which something original and beautiful could possibly make it into this realm of reality that we call life? And if it's the first thing you got to say, oh, cool, now I know I've got to finish this. Just going to plow through it. And as this thing is telling me I'm an idiot and stupid for doing it, I know that means I'm getting closer and closer to something that's really going to change me. That's really going to be good for me. That's really going to make me a better artist. So whenever you hear that voice telling you, abandon, abandon, shit, run away, that's just. That's just a lying sack of trying to stop you from creating something that only an can create. I can't create what you've created. I can't get near it. There's no way I would have come up with that insight that you came for your narrative device. And guess what? That insight did. It destroyed all of that in your head where you said, oh, I don't want to do a story like Annie Proulf because I think it's politically incorrect for this and that and the other thing. And you had really great reasons not to do it. And guess what? That narrative device solved that problem, didn't it? That narrative ice you came up with solved that problem. Because what it lends itself to is saluting and thanking those wonderful people who had the courage to be themselves, who died for that. And that is incredible. So if you don't want to do it for you, you got to do it for me. You got to finish this story, because I want to know how you pull it off, because I know it's going to be great.

Well, I do feel like I can pull it off. I mean, I feel like I Have an outline. I can do it. And I just wanted to mention that I was in that it has to be inspired or I can't do it. Phase four, many, many years of my life, which is the reason I've only ever written like three novels, because I'm waiting for inspiration to strike. And it's wonderful when it does. I mean, there's no question about it. But the reason I came to Storygrid was because I wanted to solve that problem, right? And the tools that I have gained so far from Storygrid certainly help solve, you know, that problem of waiting for inspiration. I'm still a little worried about whether this thing is going to have any life in it or whether I'm going to feel like it has any life in it right when I'm done with it.

Well, you know, it's actually not. I don't mean to be harsh, but I really don't care what you think about the life in the story. That's for me, the reader, to. You know, I truly believe, as strange as this sounds, because I talk about people applying their will and they're not that I really have much belief in will, but I truly believe that once the art has been created, it's no longer the creator's property. I see people go up to Steve and look at him like he's God, because the stories that he has created in his life have been so meaningful to them that they just can't believe that this kind of person walks on earth. And Steve is very uncomfortable with it. And I think most people who create stuff are, because deep down they know, hey, you know, I can't really take credit for this. And in fact, your reaction to it was not my intention. The intentions that I had when I wrote the story are often very sort of, you know, run of the mill. I needed a paycheck, I needed to hit my deadline or I didn't get paid. And so that's. That's how I came up with that inspiring ending payoff that you think is world shattering. So please don't associate me, the artist, with the work of art that was so meaningful to you. They're not discounting the power of the story, but they're dissociating themselves from the thing's life of its own. It's that thing in the bird that makes it fly, right? We get to borrow that sort of juju or mystical stuff when we're in the act of creation. Occasionally it comes to us and we, we run to the bank with that stuff. We deposit that as Quickly as we possibly can because we know it could go away. But once that work of art has been created, it's no longer the artist's property. And you're sort of like, you get to put your name on it and you get to see it go into the world and you kiss it goodbye and you say, that's one of my children. God bless you. I hope you live long and prosper. But you can't then say, well, you know, I really didn't think there was much life in it. I'm glad you got something out of it, you loser.

Right.

Because it's not for you to say. It's not your deal anymore. Right. And you can't. It's arrogant to say, oh, well, I know better than you because I got insights when I was working real hard that made me create this thing that you kind of think is cool. Well, that's nice, but really, it wasn't that big of a deal.

Right?

You.

You read it wrong.

Yeah, you read it wrong. Yeah, I didn't mean that at all.

So, yeah, I mean, the intersection between the blue collar work or the mechanized work or the story grid, structural, functional, organizational, analytical work, and the mystical gestalt drop in of insight, bridging between those two worlds is very difficult. But it happens in my estimation, far more frequently. It's the deliberate practice of reaching the flow state. And as writers and storytellers, the way to deliberately practice reaching a flow state requires lots of reading, lots of thinking, lots of analyzing, and lots of execution. So it's not just, oh, well, read these 20 screenplays and then that structural organization will sort of seep into your brain accidentally, then write a screenplay and then all of that stuff will just come to you automatically. No, that's not how it works. You actually have to apply your analytical, scientific reasoning. And we all have that. You have to apply that to these masterworks so that you go, oh, wow, look at the way she did that. Oh, that twisted. Look at that. And then you go, you know what? I'm going to use this as my boilerplate to get me going. It's my prime. This is the prime to my creative pump. I'm going to use that. And here I go. Yeah, bang, bang, bang. Yeah, I don't know if that works. Oh, I got to solve that problem. What is. Oh, what about that? Yeah, that works. That changes everything, though. But you know what it makes? It's better if I change it that way. So you're making changes in your story that do not align with Brokeback Mountain. However, they align with Ann and they abide thematically what Brokeback Mountain was all about. So that prime created the ability for you to bridge between your analytical mind and into this netherworld that provided you insights that helped you create this outline. Now, your outline is only an outline until you execute that outline. It's not really anything yet. It's a big ball of chaotic potential that gives you direction. So you can't really say there's no life in your story or there won't be life in your story. You. Because you haven't executed it yet. And I guarantee you, once you start executing it, you're going to hit a flow state again. And what happens in the flow state is you'll get insights. And when you apply those insights into the story, that's what gives it the gestalt. That's what gives it the life. That's the bird flight that you will inject into a story that you're concerned has none. The blue collar process of just being a workmanlike person who shows up and does her job is the way to create flow. And if you don't show up or you quit, the muse goes, you know what? I'm going to come back in a year. Let's let Ann go through her thing. And then in a year, I'll check in on her again. And then we all. When I say Ann, I'm saying all of us do this. This happens to me all the time. And you know what? You never get used to it. But when it happens, say, 20, 30 times in your life, you start to go, oh, okay, it's you again, right? All right, I know what you're about. And the delay starts to shorten. So something that would upend me for two years started to upend me for a year and a half. And now I can usually pull myself out of something within a week. A week, that's pretty good. I'll take a week as opposed to a year and a half or two years. And that's where you are in. You're in that place. You just need to. When these things start to surface for you, you got to put a label on them and go, oh, that's the bullshit guy. That's the bullshit guy. Hi, how you doing? You know, you can hang out here for a week and then you got to go. So you know what? I'm gonna do something else for a week, and then I'm coming back to my stuff and you got your ass is out of here by then. And that works because you can talk Yourself through. Through self examination of why you're resisting. Why am I resisting this process? Is the process stupid? Well, let me think. I don't think Sean's stupid. I don't think the story grid is stupid. In the two, three years I've been doing it, it's been helpful. So maybe, maybe it's not perfect, but chances are there's a good probability that it actually might be helpful. So should I go to the end of the line with this thing or not? Well, the probability that it might be helpful is pretty good. And the probability of it not being helpful isn't as good as the probability of it being good. So just as a rational human being, I and am just going to take it to the end of the line and see what happens. And if at the end of the line I've created something that I'm not very proud of, I can put that in my. I'm not very proud of this, but it was important to write anyway drawer.

That's what I think about.

The problem.

Okay, now that was inspiring.

Do we want to look at the outline I have in mind or the point of view narrative device that I've come up with? How should we proceed here?

Yeah, I'd like to, because I think you need to hear just how insightful and interesting this is because you need to hear it from a third party that you respect telling you that you're on the right track. So why don't you just give me the general highlights of your global outline. Now the way we left the story the last time is that Matthew and Josiah. Is it Joseph? Yeah, Josiah. Right. Okay. So they have been given the task of taking the hunting horses to the master's sort of prime hunting spot somewhere in the highlands or somewhere. And so they've gotten on the coach and have set out on that journey and that's kind of where we are. And then you. What you did in your outline is you sort of went a little step by step general ideas about what happens next. So why don't you sort of walk me through what happens next?

Okay. Well, in trying to follow generally the outline of Brokeback Mountain, I needed to have them, you know, run into problems with the job. Right. They have trouble on the job. So my thinking is that thematically I want to change the dirt and earth equation with Ennis and the sort of lightning and fire equation with Jack to water with Maddie and Air. I'm going to take the other two of the four, you know, medieval elements there with so Josie's more Air and Maddie is more water. Okay. So what that does is on the way, I want them to encounter a flood or a flooding river that causes the horses, one of the horses to be somewhat damaged. I didn't want to have the horse killed because then probably Josiah would also be killed. And we weren't quite ready for that this early in the story.

Right.

The horse is worth way more than Josiah to these people. So they encounter floods and they're stopping along the way. This is not wilderness. So I'm having them go. You know, having very little money that they've been given to make this journey, they have to stop at kind of low taverns and places to sleep along the way. It's about a three week journey with the way they're traveling. And so eventually their travels get them to a place where they can be alone together, you know, forced to share a bed. Right. We have to get that scene. And they become intimate. And when they arrive at their destination, they continue their intimacy. This is like a hunting lodge that the rich guy owns.

Right.

So they continue their intimacy, but they have to be very secret about it. And one of the difficulties that I'm facing is the timeline of Brokeback Mountain is more than 20 years. And I'm not able to find a way to make my timeline that long. So I'm thinking a much shorter overall timeline and I haven't worked that out yet.

Let me just jump in there. A couple of things that I love and some thoughts that may or may not be helpful. What I love is in, in the outline that you had sent me, there's sort of this mention that in these lower level inns, it was just a big bed. Right. So if there were four guys, you know, four guys would take the big bed and all four of them would sleep nose to tail or whatever it is.

Right.

And it reminded me of in Moby Dick.

Yeah, exactly. Right, yeah.

And I, and I always love that scene because he has to sleep with Queequeg, Ishmael has to sleep with Queequeg. And it's this coming in together of sort of like the civilized sort of person with the quote, unquote, uns the natural world and sort of the unnatural world together in one bed. And so the notion of these two guys. Yeah. And it's just a matter of course, you know, So I also love that like, you know, the first couple of times they have to sleep with some third party stranger, which is really uncomfortable and strange. And that's the beauty of the choice of time period that you're using And I think you could really make a lot of hay with all those sort of details. And I'm sure you will. The thing about the elapsing of time, I don't want to jump too far ahead, but you do mention later on, just sort of, you had written a bunch of little insightful ideas that might work was this notion that the two lovers discover each other, they fall in love, there's the lightning strikes. There's no question that these guys are locked spiritually in every possible way. They're at the hunting lodge, they have to sneak off, they successfully do it. And then you mention that maybe like the lord of the manor of sorts, or whoever it is, he sort of takes on the Joe Aguirre role and perhaps he catches them without them having the knowledge that he's caught them. And so at that point, then you could have this natural break. And you, you do suggest that later on. And then you, you mentioned, like, maybe Mattie comes with that guy every year and Josiah loses his position and he ends up being sort of caretaker of the hunting lodge in the off seasons or whatever. And so over a period of time, Maddie and Josiah could actually see each other because Maddie accompanies other hunting parties to that lodge, you know, every year or so. So it's almost like the, the Jack Twist and Ennis camping trips, right, that happen seasonally. That could be an idea. But I do know that you probably, you need that break moment where Josiah has to run away into the armed forces, which I think is a great idea. So anyway, that's one way to do time. Or you could do it another way. But I'm just repeating an idea that you had in the outline itself, but it could, it could work for you. So don't rule that out.

I can stretch it out a little.

But I can't stretch the army life to 20 years.

Right.

Just historically, that's not going to work. So I'm going to have him gone for something like three or four years to the Iberian Peninsula.

That's perfect. That's perfect.

And then when he comes back, instead of the postcard marked deceased, he's going to read or have read to him because he's illiterate, a newspaper article. This is historical. I have one that I can actually use that describes the. The execution by the state for the crime of sodomy of his dear beloved Matthew.

Here's an idea that you can throw out if you don't like. Okay, okay. So Josiah comes back from war and he's really, really shattered in all ways. And so he says to himself, the only thing that's really going to make my life better is to be with Maddie. So he shows up right at the house and who is there but that Lord who broke them apart, right? And he goes, hey, so who are you looking for there, buddy? You know, like, I was just wondering if Master Maddie's here. And then the Lord, because this is what nasty, horrible people do, will read him the article.

Yeah, that would be good.

So that he can feed off of his complete destruction. And that is the torment of antagonistic forces. That is, you know, you can actually show, you know, it's you. Just. I mean, I find it in myself sometimes, you know, I love delivering bad.

News.

Because it, you know, you get this, the secret kind of thrill, like, yeah, how you gonna handle that?

And so now I know something about.

You, Sean, that I didn't know before.

Yes, you do.

Oh dear.

Yeah, be careful. Be careful. I'm an unreliable narrator. Okie dokie. So anyway, that's, that's a thought. It's probably on the nose. You probably will throw it away or it could work, who knows? But anyway, it's. So you see how it can get exciting when you start, like you put these chess pieces on the board and then it's fun to sort of move them around and see what might be able to happen. And it's all about setups and payoffs. Right. So if you set up this super duper antagonistic force like Joe Aguirre, like Andy Proulx, wisely, she doesn't need to bring him back, but it might serve as a solution for you because there's no postcard that's going to be delivered. Right. So you have to fix the deceased postcard problem in your story because there's no way Josiah is going to get a postcard because they just didn't even have an address at that point.

Right, right. And he can't read and they couldn't even afford the postage. And in those days, you, the recipient paid the postage and there, you know, all kinds of reasons why that couldn't happen.

Right.

Also, I wanted to take away the individual unknown, you know, gang of guys, the homophobic murder guys. Right. And put that on the state because it was a capital crime.

Yeah.

And that also limits the historical time period. I have to kind of triangulate on this because the last execution for sodomy happened X year, whatever, earlier than you might imagine, thank God. And they stopped doing it. So I kind of have to fit that in. And with the war and you know, I have some historical stuff that I have to say.

Sort out the other way around. That is just a false accusation of some other crime. That is just complete crap.

Okay, I can do that. But one of the parameters was some form of hate crime.

Well, the only reason why Ennis knows that Jack was killed in a hate crime was because he sussed it out in his own mind. Right? Because the news that was delivered to him was Jack. It was an accident. He was changing his tire. Somebody hit his car while he was changing the tire, which crushed him and caused a big mess. And that's just a big convoluted story for a lie because he was disfigured brutally by a gang of men hitting him with a tire iron. So you could use that same idea where, you know, the Lord reads the thing about Maddie, you know, being hanged for some sort of crime, and then he says something. Well, we both know that Maddie was never a thief. And that could sort of trigger in Josiah, oh, my God. They killed him because of who he was. That could be a solution to it where it's sort of a wink, wink, nod, nod where the Lord goes. I remember you, Josiah. I remember you and Maddie were pretty good buddies up in the barn. Let me tell you what happened to Maddie. I have. I have this article. Let me read it to you. You know, I'm really making bad dialogue.

That's okay. The first draft always sucks. And then he could read the article, and then as it's sinking in that his beloved is dead, then the guy can really stick in the knife and say, but we. We. You and I both know that Mattie wasn't hung for that. I mean, you and I both know he was never a thief or he was never that sort of person. And then he kicks him out of the house. Yeah, that could be a. A solution. Or not. Obviously, what we're dealing with is these really nice payoffs in ways that are not the same as Brokeback Mountain. Right. So my point is that by using Brokeback Mountain to prime the creative pump. Here you go. Here. Ann went and came up with all of these really interesting twists and solutions that are not exactly the same as Brokeback Mountain. And I suspect by the time you're done with this, a lot of people will read this story and won't have. Won't even make a connection to Brokeback Mountain.

Well, that would be something.

Yes.

I should mention, too, that for people who were sort of reading along with what I've posted so far, I had a prologue scene where Maddie seems to own A house on a farm and is rescuing cabbages. All that's out the window. Yeah, and that's pretty typical, actually, in.

My experience of writing, you start with.

Things like that, and then they. Some things just go out the window.

Oh, absolutely. And I'll let you keep going because I think the narrative device will help you really, you know, bookend this story in a. In a very good way.

Well, what I thought a lot about.

Was that one thing that happened is even servants had servants in those days. There's a huge servant class. And so I'm thinking that during the time that Maddie and Josie are working at the hunting lodge, there's a young girl, very young girl that you get as young as, like 11 or 12 years old, who'd be like a kitchen maid or scullery maid, or, you know, just maid of all work type of person. And they're kind to her. And so many, many years later, this girl is now an old woman. I, in my heart, I like to believe she's a lesbian. And she is. Has noticed that some nephew or young boy that she has some sort of familial association with is kind of making eyes at other boys. And so she's telling him the story of Matthew and Josiah and that they managed to find a way to love each other. And that it's probably okay for you to. If you're careful.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, there does have to be this message of if you're careful. But what I'm thinking is this is a story told by an LGBTQ person to an LGBTQ person, and I think that's really important.

Yeah, I think it's. It's wonderful. It's one of those stories that provides the next generation the understanding that things, you know, they're. It's not easy, you know, but we are making little, tiny strides. And to have that hopeful, controlling idea underneath this tragedy is a really, really great idea. Because the trick in Love Story is when it ends tragically with one of the lovers dying, it's often very difficult for readers to take away anything deeper in meaning than the loss of a love.

Right.

And so having that, I think, really works. And it becomes like part of a tradition of respecting the variety of mankind or womankind or personkind through all eras to really, really start to establish that this is not a new, newish phenomena. This is humanity. And we need to tell the stories of that sector of humanity so that people feel more connected.

I was listening to an episode of the Big Gay Fiction podcast the other day, and they had a guest by the name of Lee Wind, who has written a novel called queer as a $5 bill. It's a YA novel about a young boy who discovers that in a Lincoln museum that Abraham Lincoln may in fact have had a male lover and wrote passionate love letters to him, which is actually historically factual. And in this way this young boy in modern times is given a reason to connect with an entire history that what he is is nothing new and that very respectable and famous people.

This state of nature with him. The novel sounds great. I haven't read it yet. And then this author has also gone on to work on a nonfiction history of all these various famous people in history who there are at least, there is at least some evidence were gay or lesbian or in some gender non conforming state or something like that. He's doing that work. Right. And he feels that it's still needed. Right. We're in modern times. I live in Portland, Oregon. I mean, we pretend we don't need any of this because we're so liberal. Right. Still, it's still needed.

Oh yeah. And I can speak of, you know, I'm. I was raised Irish Catholic. And our, you know, our heroes are people like George Bernard Shaw and, and Oscar Wilde. Oscar Wilde, right. So it was just this incredible, like something doesn't quite fit here like being taught at church. And then the people we read at home are a little wonky. But yeah, that's really cool. And I love the fact that all of this sort of revisionist history that we live inside of in times that can blind us for, for to have people come along and go, hey, you know, let's. Let's really unearth some stuff that people have, have tried to push under the rug. I think that's really cool. And that sounds like a really cool novel too.

Yeah, I'm gonna read it. I thought I'd give him a little plug here because I thought he sounded so interesting and the novel sounds kind of important.

Yeah.

So my plan for the next two episodes is to start writing scenes based on this outline and see what happens. Would you agree that's a good plan.

To go forward with?

Yes, without a question.

Okay, I will start doing that. I actually feel like I could write some of these scenes. Our convers has helped me a great deal and I feel like I can get to work.

Good, good. I hope. I'm glad it helped a little. And just keep plugging. Just don't listen to that voice.

Well, I will keep plugging and I'll get back to you next week with something we can read.

Okay, great. Thanks, Anne.

Thanks, Sean. Bye bye.

And that's a wrap for episode 8 of the Masterwork Experiment. You'll find links to all my working documents and to Lee Nguyen's novel Queer as a $5 bill in the show notes. For everything StoryGrid related, visit storygrid.com if you'd like to learn more about me and my writing and editing work, you'll find me@annholley.net that's a n n e h a w l e y.net where I'm posting my draft scenes, complete with TKs and temporary character names. You can check all that out on my blog. You can also find me every Wednesday on the Editor Roundtable podcast, where I team up with four of my fellow StoryGrid certified editors to analyze the story structure of a novel or a movie every week to support the podcast, tell other authors about us, and leave us a rating and review. Join us again next week for the penultimate episode of the Experiment when I change my beginning hook and hopefully make some inroads into my middle build. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.