The Must-Haves of Big Idea Nonfiction

Hello and welcome to the StoryGrid podcast. This is a show dedicated to helping you become a better writer. I'm your host, Tim Grall, and I am a struggling writer trying to figure out how to tell a story that works. Joining me shortly is Sean Coyne. He is a creator of Storygrid, the author of the book Storygrid, and an editor with over 25 years experience. In this episode, we continue looking at the nonfiction big idea genre, and we start looking at how storygrid really applies to this genre. So a lot of times when you're thinking about storygrid, of course, on this show especially, we're talking about the fiction side, the telling a better made up story. Where in this case, I wanted to see how these same story grid principles of genres, values, beginning, middle and end, how these apply to the big idea genre when we're talking about nonfiction. So that's what we get into in this episode. It's really great. It was really eye opening for me. So I think you'll enjoy it. So let's jump in and get started. So, Sean, we've spent the last couple weeks looking at nonfiction, the different subgenres of nonfiction. Then we looked really deep at the big idea genre last week. But now that we've kind of identified that and we're talking about how Storygrid works with nonfiction, we have to start asking all the same questions that we would normally ask about fiction, about the big idea genre. And so to me, the first question to think about is like, well, what's the value at stake? Because that's what defines a genre, right? So action is life and death, you know, and so when you're looking at the big idea genre, what makes it a genre? Which is what is the value at stake when we're looking at big Idea?

Okay, yeah, that's really important. So the big idea value is about ignorance and wisdom and knowledge. So I always like to think about value in terms of sort of like a gradient of value or a spectrum of value. So, you know, there's negative values and positive on one sort of a global wisdom spectrum. So if wisdom is the thing at the very, very far right of our gradient or at the top of our pyramid, then, you know, how can we think about what's the opposite of wisdom? Right. So the opposite of wisdom would be something like ignorance, Right? You just don't know that. You don't know. And so to be ignorant of something is, you know, it's perfectly natural. Everybody is ignorant of a lot of things. So we move from ignorance to wisdom by the end of a Big idea book. You know, the thing about wisdom that people get a lot of uncertainty about is that wisdom does not mean certainty. It does not mean that you have a computational formula at the end of the process. What it means is you have a global understanding of one element within a very dynamic system. So to understand the atomic theory is sort of globally understanding that there are, you know, the idea is that there's atoms that have different states of mass depending upon how many protons and neutrons they have, and they have electrons spinning around them. And, you know, the atomic theory is an essential, you know, psychotechnology, a tool within your mind that allows you to start to piece together other things. Are we absolutely certain that everything that we think about the atomic model is correct? No. And we've spent, you know, 100 years, thousands of years, in fact, of trying to figure out what we got right and what we got wrong. So wisdom is not about reaching a moment of perfect certainty, because we don't live in a world of perfect certainty. So ignorance is just sort of not even knowing something is a phenomena that exists. So the big idea of value moves from something that's interesting and sort of strikes our fascination. And then slowly it moves over this arc from beginning with the phenomena itself. And then at the end of the Big Idea, the reader will have a general understanding of what that concept really means, where it fits in to the global understanding of a particular arena. So if it's a big idea book, like the structure of scientific revolutions, then at the end of that book, we sort of have a global understanding of how scientific progress actually might happen, as opposed to the way we used to think it happened. So, you know, the global value in all Big ideas is moving from ignorance to wisdom.

How would you contrast that to like a how to book? Because you said, you know, wisdom isn't necessarily, you know, exactly knowing how to do something where a how to book is. So is that more just like specific knowledge is the value at stake in something like a how to?

Yeah, the value at stake is moving from sort of reproducing a phenomena that happens, predictable. So reproducing a predictable phenomena and learning a skill, a craft, that is what Haltu's value moves. It's more of skill acquisition as opposed to exploring the fundamental nature of the universe. So we don't really know all of the details about how tomatoes are formed. We have a pretty good idea, but it doesn't mean that you need to know that to learn how to garden. So it's Reproducing a predictable phenomena through a set of skills. So cookbooks, you know, we reproduce a phenomena of having a cake by using the ingredients that other people have used before and manipulating those ingredients in the same way that others before us have. And innovations within skill sets and crafts are the substance of a lot of how to books. So like we were talking about a couple weeks ago, square foot gardening, which was sort of a new paradigm in backyard garden. It was a way in which to get the greatest quantity of growth out of the smallest possible proportion of earth. So that was a very innovative how to book that also sort of crossed into big idea a little bit. But he doesn't really talk about why it is that you get more growth. He's just like, hey, I discovered this thing is the truth. And I'm going to teach you how to create and manipulate your environment in much the same way I do. So it's about creating a skill, how to versus a big idea book, which is about exploration, it's about intellectual sort of adventure. It's the pleasures of thinking, the pleasures of investigating things that we don't understand very well and piecing together some sort of a hypothesis based upon a particular phenomena. Can you see the distinction?

Yeah, yeah, for sure. You know, one of the things I've struggled with when I'm thinking about nonfiction is like, because when I've written a how to book, it was pretty straightforward. You know, the introduction sets up the problem, and then the book is like, first you do this, then you do this, then you do this. It's pretty straightforward how to structure it. But when we're thinking about a big idea book and then again, applying the same kind of storygrid principles, to me, would a big idea book still have the beginning hook, middle build, and ending payoff the same way? Is that still the structure we're looking at?

Yeah, this took me a long time.

Years ago, when I started the Story Grid website, you know, the first thing I did, of course, was to just delineate everything that I knew about fiction. And then after I finished that, that took about six months of, you know, twice weekly postings of two to 3,000 words. I can't believe I did all that work, but thank God I did. And then when I finished sort of the. The fiction element, I was talking to Steve, Steve Pressfield, and he said, you know, you really ought to do the same thing for nonfiction. And that's sort of how I began to look at nonfiction in the way that I always viewed fiction. And so all the principles that I thought about for fiction, I said to myself, well, those probably are the same principles that apply to nonfiction too, but. But they're probably. You have to use kind of a different lens to think about those same principles. So for fiction, when we talk about the three act structure, the Aristotelian sort of beginning, middle and end, I thought to myself, well, there has to be a beginning, middle and end in big idea nonfiction too. So what would that be? And, you know, for quite some time, I kind of spun my wheels. But there was one thing that I kept coming back to, and that is sort of the nature of the scientific method, the nature of investigating interesting phenomena that we're not really sure of why it happens, but it reoccurs, right? So it's a predictable pattern of phenomena that we are curious. What's the thing underneath it? What's the essence of the phenomena itself? So the way science works is that, you know, we really want to look at the phenomena itself and then run a bunch of experiments to test different variables about how we might think it works. And then the ultimate goal of science is to actually create a way to reproduce that phenomena on demand. That's power, right? That's how human beings create powerful machines, is that we look at a phenomena, we analyze it, and then we formulate a hypothesis about what's behind that thing. And then we test our hypothesis, right? So we want to make sure that we're on the right track. And then the ultimate test is to sort of reverse engineer our hypothesis and to mechanize our thinking to see if we can create that phenomena on demand. So back to this three act structure and the nature of scientific investigation. So I thought, okay, there's a beginning, middle and end fiction in story. And there's got to be three parts to the arc of nonfiction, right? So the way I came to that is I said, okay, so probably the first part is analyzing the phenomena. That's interesting. So it's sort of an analysis, an investigation into a particular phenomena. This happens and then this happens and this happens, and they all seem to be of this. I'm sorry to go off tangent for a second, but I love this metaphor. I was thinking about the other day, that great little game that they used to play on that television series for when your kid. Sesame street. And on Sesame Street. And I remember when I was a kid, they used to do this in class too. They would have these pictures, right? And they would have like a quadrant. They would have four different pictures in corners of a piece of paper. And the question was, Always, you know, which one of these is not like the other, right? So they would have, like, a roller skate and a basketball and a tennis racket and like a banana. And so that's how we train our scientific sort of investigation skills when we're little. And you immediately go, well, the banana. Because the other three things you use, you know, an athletic competition. And it's that simple in science. That's science, man. So that's the analysis kind of part of the Big Idea book. It's the beginning. Analysis is the beginning of the story. It's like, well, I found this, and then I found this, and I found this. And they all seem to be of a similar group. And just to use an example, in the Tipping Point, at the very start of the Tipping Point, Malcolm Gladwell points out a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't seem to be in the same arena unless you look at it through a new lens. So he talks about Hushpuppies becoming popular, and he talks about the crime rate in New York city in the 1990s falling. And then he also talks about sort of the expansion of gonorrhea in one particular neighborhood in Baltimore. So we have these three very different kinds of things. You know, people buying shoes, crime rates, and then the spread of venereal disease. And he says, these things, they don't seem to be like one another, but I think there might be something underneath all three of these phenomena that they all share, right? So that early part is called the analysis. And so the middle part is once we identify all of these things that seem to be like one another, then what we have to do is we have to formalize a hypothesis of what could be behind all of them at the same time. And in the Tipping Point, Malcolm Gladwell does that. He says, I think that there is something underneath these phenomena. I call it the tipping point. It's this place when things become critical and then they become a mass phenomenon. So that's sort of the middle build of the tipping point. And it's very long. You know, it takes a long time to formalize a hypothesis about a particular phenomena. And then lastly, the final kind of ending payoff, big nonfiction would be, can we mechanize this? Can we use this hypothesis and this formulation based upon an analysis in such a way that we can reproduce the phenomena? And in the Tipping Point, he talks about, well, if we are able to do particular things, we might be able to get our company to tip into great commercial success. We might be able to stop the spread of breast cancer in a particular community in San Diego, and so on and so forth. But he's not sort of saying, oh, here's the perfect formula at the end. And that's the difference of a big idea book versus a how to book. Because a how to book is really about reproducing the phenomena over and over again and creating a skill or a craft. Whereas the big idea is, it's an intellectual exploration. It's one person who has the courage to investigate a phenomena and to formalize some ideas about that phenomena and then say, well, if we are able to apply these ideas in this form, we can reverse engineer and create the thing that I'm investigating. So just to bring it back to the story grid, that's what the story grid is, Right. It's me looking at analyzing a whole set of different kinds of stories, formulating a big idea, which is these things seem to have categories and they seem to have things in common across specific kinds of categories. And then the ending payoff is if we abide by the structural, foundational essence of these particular categories, perhaps we can reverse engineer a really great story. So if we can look at the great stories, find out what all those little pieces underneath them are, and use those to inspire us and to formulate our story in the way in which the masters did, then perhaps we can reverse engineer a working story that will satisfy a particular audience. So just to get back and answer very clearly what the beginning, middle and end of a big idea book is, it's analysis, formulation, and mechanization. Does that make sense?

Yes. So analysis. Well, it's like the. It's the beginning hook, right? So it's like, hey, I'm noticing this thing. Then it goes into what's really going on here, and then it finishes now with the end. Does it have to be. Is it still kind of the surprising but inevitable type thing?

Yes. And that's really what sort of sets apart a lot of big idea books from other ones is sort of the surprising but inevitable conclusion. A big idea book is that there's a yin yang, Right? So when we're talking, I'm just going to use the tipping point again as another example. When we're talking about the tipping point, we tend to think about all the positive great things about being able to understand tipping points would bring us, right? So we think about, oh, wouldn't it be great to create a product that became a mass success that was worth, you know, $100 million or whatever? And we think about, well, if we can control the process by which something tips, then we can create a product that will bring us $100 million. That's sort of like the positive thing that we're all excited about now. The inevitable conclusion though, that Malcolm Gladwell draws, and he did this brilliantly in the book, was, hey guys, don't forget, tipping points can go negative too. So he brings up at the very end of the tipping point the phenomena of suicide tipping and what he meant by that. It's possible, once there's a lot of sort of publicity about a popular figure who commits suicide, it actually increases suicide rates across the world. So, you know, it's this double edged sword. If you report, you know, someone famous who takes their own life, it can actually tip negatively and, you know, encourage other people to take their own lives. So tipping points can move positively and negatively. So and oftentimes, you know, say our company does become worth $100 million. That's great in some senses, but it's not so great in others because then you start having a lot more pressure that you hadn't really considered before because you're like, oh, if I had a ton of money, all my problems would be solved. And you know, the truth is, is that through all psychological investigation is the more money people have, the greater their depression and incidence of depression and all that sort of thing happens. So the inevitable conclusion of a Big Idea book is sort of taking the counterintuitive idea and flipping it and then saying, yeah, there's a positive side, but there's also negative sides too, because it's, you know, we live in a binary world where nothing is black or white, good or bad. There's a lot of different shades of gray. And understanding that and bringing that big payoff to the end of the book is what the Big idea is about. Because what we're trying to do is to become wise. We're trying to investigate our world so that we can navigate it better. We're not trying to find certainty because there is no such thing as certainty in certain arenas of our lives. To have a lot of money seemingly seems like a great gift, but it has a lot of downsides to it too. So anyway, that's really when the big idea pays off, is when it looks at the dual nature, the binary nature of phenomena. You know, there's good and there's bad and there's. We have to manage and understand how those things happen so that we can make the best decisions possible and optimize, you know, our life on Earth and navigate it as best we can.

Yeah, it made me think when you're talking about another one of Malcolm Gladwell's books, Outliers, and how it's been a while since I read it. But the thing that sticks out in my head that was surprising at the end because he was going through all these amazing people that accomplish all these amazing things. And at the end, the two conclusions he draws were, one is the real talent is the ability to practice more than anybody else and creating communities that give people those opportunities. So it wasn't about being born with this amazing talent. It was more the talent was the ability to practice. And we should be looking at how we create communities. To me, the surprising part was it wasn't about these individuals, it was about the greater community.

Right?

But what's like the surprising but inevitable end of the war of art?

For me, it's process driven, and it's exactly the same as what you just described for Outliers, but in a different realm. What I mean by that is that I think what the war of art is about is that the actual process of creativity, the work necessary to get into the arena in which you want to apply your agency. So if you're a painter and, you know, you want to become a great painter, you've got to learn the craft of painting and, you know, you're probably driven to that arena thinking, as we all do, that, geez, when I paint my masterpiece, then I will find fulfillment, I will find peace on earth. I will finally prove to myself and to all those around me that I'm a valuable human being. And that is.

A recipe for disaster. Because when we do finally paint or write or create the business that we always thought would bring us happiness, what inevitably happens is that we find it lacking at the end of the rainbow. And it's not because we're ungrateful or terrible people. It's just that the end results are not all that meaningful. And this is really, really hard to really put into yourselves, but I believe in this 100%, is that it's the process. It's the work necessary to get better, a little bit better each and every day, to apply yourself, to go on the intellectual adventures necessary to become a better painter. To admire the works of Frida Kahlo or, you know, whoever, and learn more and more about her technique, and then to use her technique in your own way such that you get a little bit better. And then the next day or the next year, you say, I wonder what all this Q Bism is all about? And you investigate that. So it's the process of investigating an unknown territory of your own mind that brings you the meaning, the joy, the happiness. The process driven creative act is, in my estimation, it's the key to being grounded. Understanding your role on earth is by really coming to the understanding that the process is the thing. So Steve, in the War of Art, what he's saying is it's like just fall in love with that process. Think of it like it's a war. You know, if you're, you're going to want to fight yourself, you're not going to want to do the work necessary to keep churning away. So here are some tricks in order to keep doing that. And you know, he talks about like, always start the next project before you finish the first one. So that way once you finish and you reach that end of the rainbow with the first project, the next day you can start working on the next one. Because you cannot make your life about the fruits of your labor. As Krishna would say in the Bhagavad Gita, we are entitled to the labor, not the fruits of the labor. It's in the labor that our meaning is generated for us. So that's easy to say. And we all like third party validation. We all like success, we all like bestsellers. We all like it when somebody says, boy, that book you wrote was really great. But the truth is it's a little bit hollow when we do finally hear it. And we keep thinking, well, thanks, it wasn't really that great. So the process by which we can sort of function is through the creative act itself, not the results of the act. That's what I think the surprising but inevitable conclusion of the War of Art is. And I think it's also the surprising but inevitable conclusion of Outliers too.

Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know if I've ever thought of it from that perspective with these books of like, they're following that same path of having to have the beginning, middle, end and pay it off in a way that it's surprising but inevitable. And I'm guessing the books that tried to be big idea books that I didn't love is they didn't really do that correctly. Because I guess if I get to the end of a big idea book and there's kind of like nothing that surprises me, I will feel like it's a waste.

Yeah, I mean, I think this is actually a good moment to kind of talk about, you know, the conflict. You know, where's the conflict in a big idea book? Because I always talk about in fiction and in story, you know, we need a great Antagonist. You know, if we have a hero who's navigating a world in a work of fiction, there's always got to be an antagonist. There's got to be a shadow figure that's pressing up against and trying to stop that hero from reaching their particular goal. And there is an antagonist in Big Idea books. And this antagonist, Steve, brilliantly called Resistance in the War of Art. And Resistance has many different hats. It wears many different hats and many different outfits. But the Resistance in, say, the Tipping Point is not being able to find or just sort of being stymied by the phenomena itself. It's sort of like kind of giving up on the intellectual adventure before it's actually surprising and inevitable. Right. So I think when you say there's a couple of Big Idea books that you've read in the past that you didn't really feel were all that great and you're not really sure why, I think it's because the writer of that book kind of gave up. They gave up the intellectual adventure. They said, well, that's good enough.

I've sort of come up with this hypothesis. I'm not really sure what to do from here, so I'm just going to end the book now. So they sort of end the book at the end of the formalization instead of taking it to the next level and paying it off by thinking about abstractly how to mechanize this new information. So in Outliers and the War of Art, the ending payoff mechanizes it, as strange as that sounds, it mechanizes the information that's been in both books throughout the entire time. And the way it does that is to say, the big takeaway here is enjoy the process. Don't get overwhelmed by the result. As long as you tick, tick, get your bottom in the chair. Do the work, do the 10,000 hours. You know what the rewards are going to take care of themselves. But please, really focus on the process. Enjoy the intellectual adventure. Enjoy that stuff. Now, if they had just stopped with, like, oh, well, the secret is to do a lot of hard work the end, then people would be like, well, that's not really news to me. And some people do misread those books, and some people, they don't get that big final payoff at the end of the book, oftentimes because they quit reading the book before getting to the end. But I think that's sort of like the big antagonist in nonfiction Big Idea is the reluctance to take the intellectual adventure to the nth power to sort of get the global idea Formulize it, and then take an abstraction from it, mechanize it, and come up with a lesson, a universal idea that the reader can take away and say, you know what? Gladwell and Pressfield were really right about that. I don't think this is the right career for me because I'm really not enjoying this process. So I think that's how people kind of get stuck in careers, is they're like, well, if I can just get that new promotion and if I can just get that extra cash on my salary, I can just chug through this process and then I'll get that and then things will be okay. And, you know, inevitably what happens is they do get the promotion and they find themselves unsatisfied, a little bit unhappy, and they can't really make heads or tails of it. And it's probably because the process by which they had to attain that goal was not enchanting to them. They never entered the flow state. They never just got overwhelmed by some really cool idea and spent nine hours Googling it. So this cycles back to the antagonist. The hero in the Big Idea book is the writer. It's the person who has the courage to investigate a phenomena and to come up with some grand hypothesis about why it happens. And then the antagonist is all of the chaotic, unknown information things that just waylay you and destroy your theories. This happens to all of us and it's continuing to sort of enjoy. Well, geez, yeah, that really set me back. Well, let me get at it again. I'm not going to quit until I can really sort of give someone some really good advice about this and to support some universal truths so that they have wisdom. Wisdom is the accumulation of experience and knowledge such that we can kind of. You know, it's sort of like when you look at your kid and you go, oh my gosh, they don't know what's coming. You know, like, I know exactly what's going to happen when they go to that pizza party. But you can't really give them that wisdom until they experience it. So the Big Idea Book is sort of. It's almost like people reading love stories because it's this sort of safe way of falling in love and going through the love experience without being vulnerable or getting hurt. The reason why people read Big Idea books is that it's a way in which they can sort of get wisdom without having to go to the pizza party and accidentally spilling milk all over yourself at the party and being made fun of. So the big antagonist is that big black hole of the unknown and keep going into it and looking for the patterns that we all know are inherent in. I mean, the unknown is sort of like a chaotic realm. We're not sure what's happening. We can't figure it out. But we know within chaos there are patterns. So the big idea is about stepping into the chaotic unknown as a heroic figure, being the writer, and looking for the patterns, analyzing them, formulating an idea of why those patterns recur, and then testing that hypothesis over and over again until you can actually predict that pattern happening based upon your hypothesis. Yeah.

This reminds me of something you told me back when I was writing Running Down a Dream. Because the story I always tell is how I wrote the first draft of the book. And it was these 30 tools, and it was just like, do this, do this, do this. I sent it to Jeff Goins. He said it wasn't a book. It was a collection of blog posts. Then I sent it to you, hoping for a different answer. And you said you agreed with Jeff and said, this is a book that somebody will read half of, put on their bookshelf, and immediately forget, which is not what I'm looking for.

But you told me. I don't know if it was at that point, but you told me at some point.

He'S like, nine out of 10 people that read the War of Art read basically what we're talking about, the beginning, hook in the middle, build, and think, oh, that's a good book. That's really useful, or whatever. And then they just kind of move on with their lives. But that 1 out of 10 read the end. Oh, and those 9 out of 10 read the end and kind of was like, well, that's weird. But they don't really get it. But the 1 out of 10, it's that ending payoff that changes their life. And they tell 10 other people to buy a copy of the book.

Right?

And that's what you kept kind of pushing me towards with Running Down a Dream is, you know, you can give people this advice. You can tell them how to do all this stuff, but unless you have that surprising but inevitable end that goes much deeper, you know, again, 9 out of 10 people will miss it, but the one that gets that get it will tell 10 other people. And that's what's been so surprising about the book, because I will hear from these people that, like, you know, people are like, oh, I liked your book. I liked your book. And then some person, like, stops me and is like, I've sold 20 copies of your book because it changed my Life, you know, it's like. It's been really interesting to be on the receiving end, but I feel like what we've been talking about here with the beginning, middle, and end and having the surprising but inevitable payoff and even the antagonist is all getting the. To that thing you said to me a couple years ago now about, you have to have that piece, because otherwise it will be a book that will be forgotten. And I think that's what I was kind of getting to when I was saying that was all these nonfiction books I've read that are, sure, they're helpful, whatever, but then there's those ones that stand out in my head, and those are the ones that have that kind of special piece at the end that is the hardest thing. You know, it's like the shortest part of the book, but the hardest part to find, to write.

Yeah. And again, I'm just going to go back to what I sort of said at the beginning here, which is.

We all long for certainty, right? We all long for someone to tell us what to do. And, you know, this is part of the appeal, the Big Idea book is that we believe. You know, it's sort of the candy that we get people to take us seriously, and we say, come into my book, and I'm going to give you the tools that I use to be successful. And so that's sort of the stuff that drives us to these books. We're like, great. I'm just going to do whatever this person says, and then all my dreams are going to come true. So the real talent in a Big Idea book is to give them the truth, is to tell them the story of how you came to the ideas and the principles that you thought of. And then when you pay it off, the payoff has to be very clear, is that this was my path. The big abstraction that I can give you is this. You need to be intellectually adventurous. You need to pursue whatever it is that you find salient and fascinating, and you need to enjoy the process by which you go about doing that. So you cannot reach certainty. You can't take my 30 steps that worked for me and reproduce exactly all of the wonder and great stuff that came to me. But what you can do is take the message. The point of the investigation of this Big Idea is to inspire you to be as intellectually adventurous. You know, it was a real big payoff for me. I wrote this entire book about it. It changed my life writing this book. And so that's really the big takeaway of the Big Idea. It's not oh well, that theory doesn't really pan out when you look at statistical analysis of 10,000 hours. It's just not true. That's not the point at all. It's about really falling in love with the adventure and spending the time necessary to really formulate your own theories about it. Because the more you do that, the better you're going to be able to figure out how best to get a grip on the world. That's going to work for you.

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Story Grid podcast. As I mentioned last week, we are doing a brand new seminar this coming February and it's all about nonfiction. Big idea. So if you're interested in writing nonfiction work, I highly recommend you join us for this. It's a three day event, it's stuff that Sean has never taught before and there's only 35 spots available and so you can see a lot of the information@storygrid.com nonfiction if you're interested. But we only have the 35 spots available. We've already sold several of them. So if this is something that you're interested in, I highly recommend you go take a look. So the information is@storygrid.com nonfiction for everything else storygrid related, you can check out storygrid.com make sure you pick up a copy of the book and sign up for the newsletter so you don't miss anything happening in the Story Grid universe. If you'd like to check out the show notes for this episode or any past episodes, all of that can be found@storygrid.com podcast if you'd like to reach out to us, you can find us on Twitter torygrid. And lastly, if you would like to support the show, you can do that by telling another author about the show and by visiting us on Apple Podcasts and leaving a rating and review. Thanks for subscribing and being a part of our work here at Story Grid. We will see you next week.