Why all the suffering?

Hello, and welcome to the Story Grid podcast. This is a show dedicated to helping you become a better writer. I'm your host, Tim Grohl, and I am a struggling writer trying to figure out how to tell a story that works. Joining me shortly is Sean Coyne. He is a creator of Storygrid, the author of the book Story Grid, and.

An editor with over 25 years experience.

In this episode, with me coming very close to the end of my second draft, Sean and I start out discussing what we're going to do and to start analyzing and editing the second draft. And then we move into a bigger.

Question about what we're trying to accomplish.

With this podcast and with my writing and what it means to be a writer in today's world.

So it was a fun discussion.

I think it's something you'll enjoy. And so let's jump in and get started.

So, Sean, I am this close, and I'm putting my fingers really, really close together to having a finished second draft. I plan on having it to you this week. So we're recording on a Tuesday. I should have it to you by this weekend. So really excited. I'm finished up, kind of the final showdown of the, like, threshing, and now I'm moving into the end of the book. So I think I only have about four or five thousand words left. Wow, great. So I'm really excited. I feel like it's come together well. I mean, obviously, you know, I don't know how much will be changed and how much it actually works, but I definitely. In the first draft, we just skipped a whole part of the end. And so I actually wrote that part. Felt like it came together pretty well. Felt like I had some nice kind of twists and turns in it and ended up where I wanted to end up. And I have, like, it in my head where I'm going. So I think I've got it all figured out. I just got to kind of bang out the words. So I'm really excited about this because we worked on kind of. I mean, it's editing, but kind of. I don't know what we would call it, where you look deeply at a draft through all the different lenses. What would you like analyzed? The first draft of this novel in the summer of 2017, and it is now October of 2018, so it's taken a minute. And I did write a whole other book in there. I wrote Running Down a Dream in there, too. But I'm really excited to have what I think is a draft that's worth kind of keeping and working on. Because so much of the first draft got thrown out anyway. So anyway, that's my update on my work, which I'm really excited about. And so now I'm looking at sending you this. You've read most of it already, so it shouldn't take you long to kind of read the last.

8 or 10,000 words. I forget what the last part I sent you was. But then we'll move into.

Well, that's actually my question is like, what is the next step? So let's take a leap and assume the draft is working. I guess, like we're not going to have to throw out the middle build. So it's like somewhat working. Like what's our first step, second and third step when it comes to figuring out what to do with this, you know, almost 80,000 words or whatever it ended up being.

Well, I'm glad you brought that up because this is a really squishy kind of question and oftentimes it depends upon just how fully confident I am as the editor am with the general progression, the macro, 30,000 foot view of the story. So for our purposes, what I suspect I will do is pull out the 15 scenes that make up the very, you know, macro spine of the story. These are the 15 scenes that I go through at ad nauseam in the Level up youp Craft course, the big macro, the one I just completed last summer. And we're starting up shortly. And so these 15 scenes will give us a sense of are we, you know, hitting the right moments in the story according to the global genre? So again, the first thing we're going to do is say, okay, what's our global genre again? And we'll go, well, it's an action story with a labyrinth plot which the value at stake is life and death. Great, so what is the prime driver of the life and death? And it's a very analytical sort of approach. And then we'll look at your beginning hook and we'll say to ourselves, okay, what is the inciting incident of my beginning hook? And then we'll pull out that chapter, which is usually in your case, it's going to probably be the first chapter. And then we'll say.

Which scene in the beginning hook is the turning point progressive complication scene? And that will be the scene where the value shifts globally in the action story. So because the action story goes on life and death, it will either move toward life or toward death from one of the other polls on the value spectrum. So it's probably the turning point progressive complication scene Is I'm pulling it out of my head because I haven't read the book in so long. It could be the moment when 61 gets his brain fried, when they're running away and Jesse realizes that her not taking on the challenge that is presented to her by going to, you know, the threshing school is threatening the lives of innocent people. So that. That is an active turning point in the story where that will push us into the crisis of the beginning hook. You know, with the crisis of Jesse, is. Is it's the best bad choice or irreconcilable good? You know, if I stay here, it's good for me, but it's bad for everyone else. If I leave here, it's bad for me, but if I don't, it's even worse for everyone else. So it works on both levels. And then that would move into, you know, the climax of the beginning hook, which. And then the resolution of the beginning hook. And then we would do the same thing for the middle build and for the ending payoff. And what we're looking for in those 15 scenes is a. Are they turning on the global action value, meaning life and death? Now, if one of those scenes that we pick out turns out to be turning on love or, say, validation, we were going to have to look at that scene and say, hey, this isn't turning on the global value shift. This is a critical scene in the story from a macro point of view. And if it doesn't turn on life and death, then our reader is going to get a little bit confused without knowing why. So let's tweak this scene so that it, you know, it complies with the value shift inherent in an action labyrinth story. So that would be the first thing that I would do is, you know, I would ask you to pull out the 15 scenes, and then we'd walk through them and we would say, a, is the scene working? B, is it going on the right value shift? C, does it make sense? Is this really that good? Because these are the big moments of your novel, right? So these 15 scenes are like almost. They're the way stations where, you know, if you're going on a trip to Los Angeles from New York, they're, you know, where you stop off for lunch and dinner and breakfast, right? So these are the big moments where the reader is literally hungry for. It's what's driving them, you know, as if we can get to Pittsburgh. We can have, you know, a cheesesteak or I messed up Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. But, you know, what I'm saying, so if you look at your story in that way, like these 15 are the 15 way stations for your. Your reader as they're moving across, you know, the terrain of your story. So they're gonna want, you know, those are the real payoff moments in the story for them. So we gotta make sure that they really are good, that they really do innovate and surprise the reader. So they go, oh, my gosh, this is. I can't wait till the next, you know, rest stop scene. So that would be the first thing, you know, really, really nail the global macro of the 15 scenes of your, say, probably 60 scenes in your book. And then from there, the next thing I would do is check your. Have you done the obligatory scenes and conventions of your chosen genre? You know, do you have the hero at the mercy of the villain scene? It's an action story, so you need that. Do you have the convention of the mentor? Yeah, you do. So we basically go and we would check off to make sure that not just that you have them, but where, like in the Pride and Prejudice story grid schematic that I made, at the very bottom of it, there are all the moments where I've ticked off where Jane Austen actually literally did the obligatory scene and did have the convention. So we can say if somebody ever put a gun to our head, oh, really? Where is the mentor scene? You go, oh, well, that's scene 32. And if we had the story grid of your thing, it would have it right at the very bottom and it would highlight mentor. So that would be kind of the second level. As you can see, there are multiple levels of analysis in a story that an editor and a writer can work through to really just, you know, make sure that they haven't forgotten anything. It's like when they send a car off of the lot at a major car manufacturing, they don't just like ship it away and sell it. They test it, right? They test to make sure the ignition's working, that the exhausts working, that the electrical system's working, that the air conditioning system's working. So that's what the editing process is going to be for, you know, that next level of draft. Now, this is your second draft, so we're hoping. It's our estimation that probably 80, 80 to 90% of your 15 scenes are working. And if it's 60, then we'll deal with it. But, you know, you've gone through a lot to get where you are now, and I think it's going to show in the work that you're going to present to me that it's a much better book than it was after the first draft, and if we can just sort of use the toolbox that we already have, and then we'll go through the Hero's Journey, you know, is it clear that Jessie is, you know, refusing the call to adventure? I think it is pretty clear because she suffers terribly for that. Is it clear that, you know, she moves from her ordinary world to an extraordinary world? Yeah, that's clear. And then, you know, we'll go through whatever. I think there are like 12 or, you know, 14 mile posts of the Hero's Journey that we talked about, you know, probably a year ago, and we'll go through those, too. So it's not like this magical, mystical experience that you're going to get next, where I wave the wand over your manuscript and, you know, all the things to fix are going to immediately, you know, rise to the surface.

I keep waiting for the magical, mystical moment.

It just keeps not coming.

Yeah, Here's a really painful thing, and I, you know, I. I'm hesitant to say it, but it's a work of art, right? We're working on creating something that has never existed before. And it's a story. And the story is a very dynamic, incredibly difficult, you know, thing to really pull together. And oftentimes you can use all the powers of your analytical mind and really tick off every box and be able to defend your story until you're blue in the face. But sometimes, even after all of that work, the proof of the pudding when it goes into the marketplace is that it just didn't connect with people. But that's okay as long as you've really put through, you know, every effort that you can. Now, I know a lot of people out there, and I spoke to a bunch of people at a recent conference I was attending. A lot of people, you know, they make a really good argument and they say, look, come on, Sean, I mean, at what point are you gonna let poor Tim finish his book?

Put this guy through murder, and his book sounds pretty good. I'm sure it's, you know, it's reasonably okay, and that certain people will enjoy it. And, you know, what makes you this, you know, this big, nasty figure who keeps grinding him through this process. And, look, I don't have any problem with someone reaching the moment where they say, you know what? I've done enough. I've worked as hard as I can on this. No mas, Got to move on. And I think it's ready for the marketplace and let's put it out there. I have no problem with that. But my job as an editor is to follow the lead of the writer and to not BS them. And if they say, hey, do you think if we went through another round we could tweak this a little bit better? I'm going to say yes. Now at some point I would say to them, the book is the book and it's ready to go. And we can go through a few more drafts and we could probably, you know, make the line by line micro writing syntax read better. We might be able to elevate the suspense of particular scenes, but it's there. So moving it from a, you know, a 78%, I'm just making that up to a 79%. What is the effective, you know, return on investment of psychic pain to do that? Is it going to increase readers emotional attachment to the story in any real way? No. Okay, then it's time to let it go.

Well, I look at this as like, the opening line of the podcast is always like, I'm a struggling writer trying to learn how to tell a story that works. And so for me, this isn't about, I'm not a struggling writer trying to get a book out in the world.

The whole point of this process is not necessarily to finish a book. It's to get better at telling a story.

When I look at the difference between the writing of your first 1,000 copies that I came out with six years ago and then running down your dream, it's night and day because I've gone through this long, horrible, terrible process.

When people say, well, you know, let's wrap it up and send it out, I'm like, well, sure, but the point is not to. I'm not churning on the threshing trying to write the perfect book that I know will sell. I'm churning on the threshing so that everything I write after the threshing will be better. And I just, you know, I was telling people when I was working, and running down a dream is like, my job is to just keep working on it till Sean says it's good enough. And I feel like we have a similar idea of what good enough is, but you have a more clear picture of when you see it. And so, yeah, I don't have any doubt I could be on part three of the trilogy already if I was just like, hey, that's good enough. Let's ship it and go. But part of the process of churning on this is so that every future book will be better. I mean, we got a question one time from somebody that was like, in this world where authors are releasing a book once a quarter or once every two months, is it really worth working on a book for that long? My point was the whole, if you work on a book for that long, every other book you write forever will be better. Kind of like several years ago when I switched from the QWERTY keyboard layout to the Colemat keyboard layout, it was like this long period of excruciating pain of not being able to type. But now I type an average of 10 words a minute faster for the rest of my life. That's how I kind of see this is like, sure, it's taking two or three years to get this book out, but my assumption is I will be a better storyteller for the rest of my life. And so that's how I view it is. It's much bigger for me than just finishing a book and publishing it. It's more about going through this process with a book makes me hopefully a better writer for the rest of my life.

Well.

It also is about defining the value that you appreciate the most. Right. So defining worth is it. What's it worth to you, Tim, for. For doing that? Now, a lot of people define value and worth monetarily. And yeah, sure, I, you know, money's great and I would be nowhere without it, but at some point you've got to say to yourself, okay, am I doing this just to get more money? I mean, really, am I, you know, going through this hell and drudging up a lot of difficult experiences in my own personal history in order to bring them to the table, to a fictional world? Am I doing that just to get a few more dollars in the bank account? Now, if you're doing that, then yeah, I probably agree. Yeah, bang them out, man. You know, just keep banging them out and, and work through the, the algorithms necessary to get the most exposure to get people to give your book a try, etc, etc, etc. But I think what that eventually does to you is that devalues the creative experience. And for me, like a lot of people have said to me, why don't you just, you know, go from city to city and do your story grid introductory course over and over and over again and, you know, really from the marketing and, you know, get more people to say you're the smartest editor of all time and you're invaluable and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Why don't you do that? Because you will obviously make far more money than you do sitting you know, reading all the crap that I read to. To get better at the story grid stuff. And the answer to that question always for me is that it's. I just don't value that thing because for me, it's. Not to sound cheesy, but it's the exploratory journey of saying, you know, I'm not really quite sure about that idea that I presented about the obligatory scene in the coming of age story or the maturation plot. So maybe I should look at, you know, Erik Erikson psychological explorations of. I just made that up. But that's kind of what gives me my thrill, right? Like, what other disciplinary worlds can I explore that will influence and make my story grid stuff even more universal? And I would rather sort of go to that place instead of. That's worth more to me than the dollar values associated with the traveling story grid roadshow.

And I think I'm trying to picture what that would be.

You know, and a lot of people are like, well, you're really. You're not doing more people a service for that. Meaning, like, I could help other people. More people doing the roadshow than me with my head stuck in a book where I live. You know, what's the point of that? And that's a very good argument. Even if I were giving away, if I were, say, independently wealthy and just going from town to town and doing these seminars for free at the local library, and maybe six people in the local community use the story grid and become better storytellers, that would be far more worthy of my time than me exploring more psychological stuff. And I would say maybe that's a pretty good argument, but I value my own intellectual exploration more than, you know, the money or the community service. And I think, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think for you there's a certain, for lack of a better word, sacredness to your engagement with storytelling that supersedes things like, you know, churning more on your. Your list of people who follow you kind of stuff. And so I don't think that, like, what really nailed it for me in my assumption that that is true for you is when you wanted to throw in the towel about six weeks ago, right? So you were willing to walk away from two years of hard work without realizing a penny because you had hit a creative wall. Now, that isn't someone who's writing to make money. That is someone who's writing to explore something within themselves that's extremely difficult to pinpoint. And so the fact that it's yeah, it's probably going to end up being three years, maybe three and a half years before this novel ever hits the light of day. And you and I can scream to the rooftops until we're hoarse. Who knows how many people will enjoy and buy the book? And we can't really do anything about that. That's not really within our power. We can give it the best possible shot that we know how. And then, you know, this thing, this book, it's its own thing at that point, and it has to live its own life. And like, you know, sending your child away to go to college, you have to say goodbye. Good luck. I've done everything I can to, you know, I hope things work out well for you. But I think if you're worried about monetizing your time writing stories, you probably haven't hit the place where you're doing it for the value of the creative act yet. I'm not saying that's never going to happen for you. Maybe it won't. That's okay, too. You know, there's some great stories come from people who aren't grinding, and I think that's a magical thing. And, you know, I just don't know how to create that magic other than working through my analytical process to help people become better writers. So it's what I know. It's what I think you value and you think is worthy, and that's why we're doing what we're doing. And does it get crazy? Does it get ridiculous? Sure, but anything worthwhile gets crazy and ridiculous.

Yeah, it's interesting.

A long time ago, I read this article about how writing isn't a job and shouldn't be a job. And I mean, obviously that's a big, controversial topic, but I have found it super helpful to not look at my writing as a job, as, like, something that I get paid to do. And so any money that comes in as a result of my writing is just like, oh, bonus.

I've kind of strived to create income. I have a job that creates income for me so that my writing never has pressure. Because the pressure on my writing, I feel like right now is to get better at writing and to keep moving, right? So it's not so much I've got to publish. It's not so much I've got to make money, right? So I can pay the bills. Because I've talked with the authors that churn out books so that they can get the next advance because they need that next advance in order to pay their bills. And it becomes this really kind of scary cycle. And, you know, it was interesting. I was listening to.

I can never say his name.

Who's the guy that wrote Fight Club?

Chuck Palahniuk.

That guy. He did an interview, I can't remember if I mentioned on the podcast, but he did an interview on the Joe Rogan podcast, which was really good. It's just FYI, for those listening, it's kind of hard to listen to. There's some really nasty stories in it.

But otherwise, I listened to it after you recommended it, and I was like, my jaw was on the ground a couple of times because I couldn't believe the stories he told. But they were just shocking for a purpose, not just to be shocking.

Right. So. Which. That's a whole nother realization I had listening to the podcast, is what he does with his writing. But he talked about how his agency's person or something, basically, this guy stole a bunch of money from him and a bunch of other famous writers. And all of a sudden, he was in this place where he had had money for a really long time, and now there was no money because it had been stolen. And he had this really interesting perspective on it that I thought was really healthy. And he talked a lot about it, but the thing that stood out to me was, like, it almost allowed him to go back to writing because. To have some pressure on his writing in a good way, because all of a sudden the money was freed up. Like, he didn't.

I don't know.

Maybe I'm contradicting myself. He had to go back to the page and write faster because he was out of money, but it kind of forced him to do the things he'd been wanting to do for a while is how I read it. And so when I think about the right kind of pressure on writing is like, I want to keep moving. And one of the things I love about this podcast is like. Like, this is a highly public accountability system that I keep moving. It doesn't take long for it to become clear that I'm not doing anything if I don't do anything for a while. And so, yeah, right now, the idea of putting monetary pressure on my writing just seems. I feel like it would kill what I'm trying to do.

Well, I think the professional. In Poloniuk's case, I think the point he was making was, hey, man, I'm a professional writer, and I've got the skill set that's available to me after decades of hard work that allows me to write stories that are very compelling. So the only Reason why I wasn't doing that more often was, was because, you know, I've got my trip to Tahiti planned and I'm just gonna chill out. But what he was saying, I think is that there was a great gift to him. I mean, obviously it's not a gift, but to lose a paradox.

I don't know. I think he almost talked about it from that perspective.

He did say it was a gift, but I think he was pounding the point more than. More than really necessary because he was speaking to an audience of people who would probably say, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. So he really wanted to nail it. But anyway, the point is, is that once the wolf was at the door, now he could no longer say, oh, should I write that one story I had in mind? Now it was like, shit, I better get that thing done or I'm not going to be able to, you know, eat next month. So that pressure for the professional, a monetary pressure for a professional, can actually lead to creative vigor. Now what I think is difficult is when you haven't really had the confidence yet in your skill, so you're pretty much still an amateur. And I'm not trying to degrade you in any way, but you're still in the.

I would say I'm solidly in the amateur arena.

Okay.

Yeah.

So as an amateur, you should not be worried about financial return on your material. Once you reach a place where you say to yourself, hey, you know what? I've been able to. My little side gig is now bringing in enough to pay the rent. Oh, man, I'm a professional. And it's not like this ding, ding, ding bell. You come to realize this. At some point in my own professional life, I realized, oh, I don't have to do that anymore. I've got enough revenue coming in from X. My professional life, my previous amateur avocation, has now become a livable wage. And that's a wonderful feeling. But when you're creating and you're using your creative energies, and it's like Quincy Jones saying, when money comes in the room, God leaves the room. Except when you're a super duper professional. I mean, I would put that as a caveat, but only in the singular case meaning if you're a lone artist creating your own stuff, when you become commitified, it can become very crass. You know, it's. Again, it's hard to really draw a very distinct clear line here because every person knows the line for themselves. Yeah. But I would say because those people who are banging out the book every two months. They are professionals, right? They are making enough money for them to sustain their lives. The only problem I have with that is that if it degrades the creative process for them and they start to say, oh shit, I got to bang on another book. Let me think, it's a hot dog story or whatever it is, then it can get hairy. But it's all within the soul of the creator. Yeah. Yeah. So we all know when we're selling out and we all know when we're not. So just try not to lie to yourself about it.

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