Worldbuilding in Hero's Journey 2.0

Hello and welcome to the Story Grid podcast. This is a show dedicated to helping you become a better writer. I'm your host, Tim Krall, and I am a struggling writer trying to figure out how to tell a story that works. Joining me shortly is Sean Coyne. He is the creator of Story Grid, the author of the book StoryGrid, and an editor with over 25 years experience. In this episode, I get pretty up in my head about this whole world building thing with my current manuscript and holes I'm finding and issues I'm running into. And Sean helps me kind of talk through how to use this and how to get through this problem, especially using this Hero's Journey 2.0 framework that he has developed. So it was a really useful episode for me, helped me calm down and know what to do next. So hopefully you'll enjoy it too. So let's jump in and get started.

So, Sean, I am probably about a week away from finishing up the first draft of my novel, which is cool. I'm like, like 105 days in a row of writing, which is probably. It's got to be the longest I've ever written consistently.

So that's cool. But towards the end I've like. So as I've written, any time there's something I've got to like, go back and fix or something, I realize, like, okay, I got to put this in earlier or like, I don't have a name for this thing or these people yet, so I've just put in brackets. Like, there's lots of like bracket, whatever I'm calling them or whoever they are. And. And then. But the further I've gotten into it.

It'S like I get more and more brackets. And so I'm pretty close to ending it, but I'm starting to feel like I need to go back and actually fix a bunch of things before I submit it to you. But we had kind of talked about that and you're like, it might be worth you taking a look before I go back to fix anything. And I always feel like I always get stuck in these places where like, I don't want to go back and fix a bunch of shit you're going to read and be like, yeah, we need to get rid of all of that, you know?

So I'm kind of struggling with like, do you like, when should I send it over to you to look at the story? And like, the story's good now go clean this up. Or like, oh, we got to fix this part. Because I'm also like, I've, you know, as I've continued to write, I have these. The same kind of emotional. Like, this is amazing to. This is complete trash. So, you know, you never know. And. And so, like, the way the whole kind of sequence I use to end one of the storylines or to like, push it to the climax is like, I've started really second guessing myself on it, but I'm just finishing it. So anyway, all of that to say.

I'm a little uncertain about when I need to show it to you. How much should I fix it? Should I go back and start, like, rejiggering some things? Or do you want to look at it now? And where are you at with that?

It's like a. Like an old action movie, you know, like, there's the. There's the old grizzled veteran who's teaching the young guy how to, you know, handle himself. And. And then at one point, the old grizzled veteran gets killed.

And so I'm not saying that my demise is coming shortly, but all. All I have to say is that there. There comes a time where the. The Apprentice has to, you know, start making those decisions for himself. So one of the things that you need to start to think about is what. What would I do if there was no Sean? What if I were now fully in control of my own writing to the point where I have to do my own editing?

So for me to be able to. Honestly, I could go through your spreadsheet without even reading the pros and start telling you if things are probably working or not.

So whether or not there's a bunch of TKs in it and brackets isn't going to really freak me out that much because my first read will only be about.

Well, the first read is like, can you capture my attention such that I stop thinking about what's wrong with it and start thinking about what's going to happen next.

That's really when I know that a project is working, is when.

My veil of my editor goggles falls away and I'm actually engaged in the story.

So, you know, that happens every now and then, and it's a great feeling, but otherwise it's really not going to matter to me if you fixed everything or not, or. But if you have a good, solid rough draft of generally the structure of, you know, your five commandments for each of these quadrants, then it's okay for me to look at it, because then what I'll do is look at it globally and see whether or not this makes sense. Generally, you know, I've read however many, like 30,000 Words of the Thing, and this is the second book in a trilogy. And what the second book in the trilogy is all about for the protagonist is for her to.

Really start to see second order effects of behavior. So when we're younger, we think like, oh, that's no good. Let me just burn it all down. And then everything will be fine. And then once we get more mature, we start to understand, oh, wait a minute, if I burn everything down, then there will be no order to the system at all. And if there's no order, oh boy, that's chaos. And when chaos emerges, oh boy, that's no good. Because then what you get is just complete mayhem and nobody knows what's going to happen next. And so that's what's going on in this second novel is that Jesse's.

Burning down of the system, shutting it down. She thought, oh, once that's done, then, you know, the veil will be lifted and everybody will come together and, and everybody will be happy again because everybody's the better. Angels of everybody's nature will make, you know, make things good. And that's really naive.

Because everybody has shadow agency within them. And when we get threatened, shadow agency emerges. And we want to protect ourselves and we want to protect those closest to us. And what that means is, you know, some violence can happen anyway. So this second book is all about Jesse learning about second order effects and learning that just burning things down without making.

Without figuring out what will emerge from the ashes is a bad idea.

And we've, we've already talked about this and generally the trajectory that you told me made sense to me. So all of this is to say that I don't really care if there are a bunch of brackets and things that you have to fix, as long as you're.

And you don't even have to be happy with it as long as your plan, your intention.

Is on the page. So, yeah, we get enthralled by our work and then we hate it and blah, blah, blah. But the important thing is.

Were my intentions for this story, are they on the page? Have I hit my five commandments? Have I taken it to the places where I wanted it to go?

Whether or not it's working perfectly isn't really up to you because you're too close to it right now. But the last thing you want to do is start ripping things apart when you don't really know if your intentions are really working or not. And that's, that's where an editor can really help if they go, yeah, yeah, this is working. You just need to, you know, make it more clear or I, you know, add different sequences, the scenes a little weak, that kind of stuff.

Okay, because I've been thinking through this because I'm also, I'm going to be working on a story grid beat for story grid publishing about, like, what it's like and how to work with the story grid editor. And this.

This is one of those moments that I realize, like, people run into, which is because on one hand you've said before, like, you know, if I, if somebody's working with an editor, they need to get the book as ready as they possibly can to send it before they send it to them, so everybody's not wasting their time. But then at the same time I'm like, yeah, but one of the upsides of having somebody again, like, my biggest concern is I don't want to, like, spend a bunch of time trying to fix something that is fundamentally broken. And so, you know, if you, if you take a look at my spreadsheet or, you know, skim through it and you're like, no, you're, you're hitting all the points now. Go start cleaning it up. Then I'll be ready to hit the ground running with the cleanups. But I don't want to, like, be, you know, polishing the brass on the Titanic on this one. So I guess I'm trying to really pinpoint as a writer, if you're working with an editor or you have an editor that's like ready to work with you when you have a manuscript ready. Like, I don't like, where is that ready thing when you can, when you've looked at it and can identify all the macro shifts and you think it's working on that level, even if there's a lot of TKs in it?

Well, yeah, I mean, that, that would work for me. I mean, it's also, you got to remember everything. The one factor you, basically every situation, you have subjects and objects, right? So the object is the creative piece of work that you've put down, you know, in digibytes and a piece of paper. So the manuscript is the object. And then you've got two subjects. You've got the writer and you've got the editor. And so the writer has a whole internal world going on in their mind, and so does the editor. And then you've got the object in between the two people. So the question that you're saying is, when should I hand the object to the other subject? And that all depends on relationship, right? So the relationship between the writer and the editor, you know, the more projects you do, the less formal you have to be.

So Steve Pressfield and I, he can, we can do things on the telephone. He'll drop an idea to me and I'll, I'll say yes or no because I'm not afraid of giving him my opinion. And you know, we can do editorial work that.

That would take other people years to get done. That's because we have, you know, 25 years working together. And so this is the second book you and I have worked on. So no, I really wouldn't want to give you the benefit of the doubt if I hadn't worked with you. Right. So relationship is as important as the subjects and the objects. So the relationship is the thing that you want to establish as a writer with an editor very, very well. So at the very beginning of the process, when the editor asks you to do a certain task and you half ass it, I don't think you're building a very good relationship with the editor. And likewise, if the author says, can you look at these five scenes for me and get back to me by next Tuesday? And the editor doesn't do it, then that's no good either. So it's, these are the basics of manners, right? So basic stuff that you know. You know, people say the boomers take this stuff for, for granted. And I'm like, isn't this, isn't this just natural things? Like if you say you're going to do something, you do it and that's it. So now once you've established a relationship and I know that you're not afraid you're going to do the work you've done rewrites of things that I've told you to do. Now I'm not so worried that you're, you're going to be, you're going to run away and not finish the book. But if it was the first project we were working on, yeah, you better deliver your best shit to me because I want to know that you're not freaking around and you don't. A first time writer working with their editor on their first novel should assume that if they don't take it seriously and they don't do what they're told to do, that editor is going to form a poor opinion of their work ethic. And editors are as picky as writers are. They don't need to work with you. So if you have a poor work ethic, who's going to want to work with you? I'M not going to. And so all I'm saying is, like, now I know you have a very good work ethic. We've worked together for four years, five years. So it doesn't have to be as, oh, I don't want to get this to Sean because there are some typos in it, or I misnamed somebody a few times. No, I don't really care about that at this point because, you know, I know you're going to do that work later on.

So you've earned a position now where you don't have to worry about making a fool of yourself in front of me anymore. Right?

Yeah, I've done that on the podcast to thousands of people. So, yeah, I'm not so worried about that.

And I didn't quit when you did. Right. And I'm not saying that I make a fool of myself all the time, too. I'm not saying that I don't do that. But that's the other thing is on the reverse side, when you did make some mistakes and you didn't get things all that quickly, I didn't quit on you. I'm like, well, I must not be communicating properly because this guy's really smart. He does the hard work. So this is a failure on me as the editor, not the client. So if I've asked you to identify the turning point, progressive complication in your scene and you just can't keep doing it and you keep trying very hard, then that's a failure on my. And not yours. I'm not telling you exactly what you're looking for.

So, again.

Everything about the creative process.

Is it really eventually just goes to relationships. So, you know, when you are starting to work with an editor and you're, you're not sinking and you're not clicking and you're not delivering and the relationship doesn't seem to be bringing you much joy, or then, you know, it's fine to say, you know what? I don't think this is working. And probably nine times out of 10, the other person will be like, you know what? Right. I think you're right. Let me, you know, let me ask another friend of mine who's an editor. I think you would work better with them.

So part of the creative process, especially when you get into a partnership with an editor, is to do what you're going to say and be respectful of the other person. And guess what will happen? A trust will grow. And then on book number two, book number three, it's going to get easier and easier and easier and the shorthand will be very helpful. Like, Steve doesn't need my help, you know, redoing his scenes. So all he wants from me is a global. Like, is this working? Do you think that makes sense? And I'll tell him, and then he'll go, okay, got it. And then off he'll go, and then he'll check back in with me and send me the new scenes, and then I'll go, yeah, these worked, or, yeah, definitely, but tweak this so it becomes a much easier and simpler process once you've worked on. And it's easier to say, you know what? You got to do a page one rewrite.

So this is. This is a good lesson for everyone out there, is that when you start working with an editor, you've got to build a relationship like you're building with.

You know, the. The people who fix your car or the people, you know, the experts who take care of you. You don't just go in there, hey, when's my car gonna be ready? I've got things to do. Because these people are very busy. So you need to deal with them professionally, and you need to deal with your editor professionally, too, in order to form a relationship so that when your car breaks down, you can make one phone call, and the guy's like, yeah, I'll be there in 20 minutes. Now, I wish I had the relationship with my car mechanic the way that I have with you, too.

But I'm working on it. I'm trying to be respectful.

Okay.

All right. So I feel like that gives me a good idea, so I think I'll finish it and then probably go back through. Yeah, okay. That gives me a good idea because I'm. I'm trying to also be very aware that, like, it's always at this point in the book when I'm like, this isn't working. Throw the whole thing out.

So that's good.

Yeah, that's a good sign. Okay, I know it sounds like a bad sign, but it's a good sign because it means.

What it means is that you're not going to be satisfied with your first attempt. And some of the stuff in there that you will be satisfied with, you know, we can make even better. Yeah. But if you're like, I'm not changing a word. This is amazing.

Then if I ever.

Get that point, just put me down. Yeah, this is. This is not going to work out anymore.

Yeah. So. And then.

The other thing, and, you know, if you're like, please don't worry about this. This will come. That's totally fine. But, like.

So if I think about the manuscript right now, I feel, like, 80 to 90% confident in the story and it hitting all the. All the story marks, which obviously is the most important thing. So you have, you know, there's. Basically, the bones are there in a way that I feel like, are pretty good.

But I am pretty stuck on.

Like, I don't know what I feel. I don't know. I don't know what to call anything. Like, there's. I've realized, like, most of the book where, like, I got it. This. This. I got to figure out what this monster thing is and what that's called, and I got to figure out what these people are exactly doing and what they're called and what they're dressed like and, you know, where exactly this thing is and. And all of these things. And I keep hoping that it'll, like, come to me. Like, as I, you know, I think about it in between writing, you know, I think about every day, and I'm just. Nothing's coming. And so I feel like, is this something where. Well, on the second draft, this is where I'll get really serious about these things and actually make these decisions.

Or, like, do you think I should just maybe send this to a couple of my nerdy friends that read a lot of this stuff and maybe brainstorm with them?

Or is this, like, you know, just don't worry about this. Finish the story, do a quick spreadsheet, send it to me, and we'll go from there.

Well, so basically, you're talking about is the world building stuff.

Okay, Well, I guess I was hoping, like, early in the book when, like, I was tking all these things, I thought, yeah, you know, it'll all kind of come together as I'm writing the book. And now I'm almost at the end, and every time I, like, reference one of these things, it's all in brackets because I got to fix it because I still don't know this stuff. And so now I'm like, well, you know, then I start hearing these voices. Like, you know, specificity breeds universality. You don't even know who these people are and what they spend their days doing, you know, and they're in your book and, like, you know, a third of the chapters. And so.

You know, so then I start, like, getting this worry of, like, am I gonna be able to come up with anything? Or is it just gonna be like, some vague kind of, you know, mealy thing?

Okay, so generally, here's my position on world building, and it goes to the relationship between the protagonist and the antagonist. So.

Essentially, in my estimation, the antagonist is all about.

Control. They are all about having an order that they are at the top of. So they're. They're sort of at the top of the power hierarchy of the story. So the antagonist is the place where people's agencies are collected. So all of those people who are living inside the antagonist's world basically have turned over their agency to the power of the antagonist.

So what that means is if the antagonist is.

Let'S say it's Captain Ahab on the Pequod.

Now, some see him as the protagonist, and that's the beauty of the story. But let's look at Ahab in terms of being the antagonist of the story, because in many ways, he is.

So the Pequod is the whaling ship that Ishmael and all the other sailors are on, and they're. They're out there on a whaling mission, and their job is to basically just kill some whales and bring back oil, go back to Nantucket and deliver the oil or wherever, New Bedford. But Ahab decides that he's going to seize control of the ship, and instead of doing that normal voyage, yeah, he'll kill some whales on the way. But his big, big objective is he's going to go hunt down that whale that took his leg, and he's going to die trying. He's, you know, he wants vengeance. So he's got to get these guys, he's got to suck up their agency in order to get them to. To go on his mission. So very early on in the novel, he goes down in the, like, the beginning of the morning. And you got to remember all the guys are on the ship are really poor. Like, these people are barely making it on land. That's why they ship out to sea, because they can actually make a little bit of money and survive a little bit longer. So what does Ahab do? He goes down and he takes out this really, really valuable coin. It's like a doubloon. It's like probably more than any of the money that any of these guys are going to make on this entire voyage. And he nails it to the. To the mast. And he says to everybody, he makes a big announcement. He says, anybody who cites Moby Dick is the first one to sight him will get this skull doubloon. And it's at that point that every one of those guys on that ship sign up for the mission.

So then at that point, then you think about, well, what's the hierarchy of the ship.

What are the duties of the people on this ship? And that's where Melville went nuts. He explained. Because he went on these ships, right? So he explained the world of the ship, and he was all able to put it within the context of the antagonist. Because once you understand that Ahab is at the top of the command and that he has all this experience, then the world of life on that ship becomes much clearer. So this is one of the really important points about trying to figure out who your antagonist is. Because what the antagonist does is gets other people to. To turn over their agency to him or her, such that he can control.

A mass of people with. So what he says goes. Now, the protagonist, on the other hand, is not one to turn over agency lightly. And so what you have in a story is this very, very deep conflict between the protagonist and who's in a world of people who have given up their agency to an antagonist. And how are they going to deal with it. So Ishmael is, you know, he's sort of the. He's the narrator of the story, and he's the hero of the story, too. He. And.

I forget the name of the Native American. Anyway, so the. The two of those people are the only ones who survived this mission. And the whole story is about whether or not Ishmael is going to just give over his agency to Ahab. He doesn't really. Why? Because he is observing the behavior of Ahab as if he is, you know, the captain of his own ship. He's looking at this guy like, hey, man, this guy's a little bit crazy. He only has one leg, you know. So when you start sort of bringing it all the way to the top and saying, well, what's the story about anyway? Well, it's about these antagonist figures who are out to seize other people's agency to do their bidding, such that they can control their world to the utmost so that they can become the God of their own life. And what they say goes. And they can change the rules of the natural world such that they get what they want all the time.

So that is the shadow figure. And we all have this shadow figure within us. We all want to change the world to what we want all the time. And we think the world sucks when we're not getting what we want. And we get really angry about it. So this is the whole story of Moby Dick. It's about this really angry guy who can't let it go. That there are things that befall us that just are unexplainable. And we have to suck it up and deal with it. No, Ahab is going to have none of that. He's going to go and he's going to kill the force that had the audacity to take his leg.

And it's a brilliant metaphor for life, right? Like, are you going to be compelled by all the shit that never went well for you to the point that that's all you think about. And you're willing to get other people to do your bidding for you, such that you get what you think are your just desserts.

So these are big existential questions. Whereas the protagonist is trying to search for their own meaning of their life and they're observing the world and trying to attune to it such that they find something meaningful. And that's what Ishmael does. He's a writer. He's trying to find his way in the world. He's broke. The only thing he can do is to sign on as like a second hand on this whaling ship. But what does he learn on that whaling ship? He gets a much bigger education than just getting a couple of doubloons at the end of the adventure. He learns about the true nature of man, of human beings, and how they can be just sucked under by their resentment. Anyway. So when you're thinking about these micro details of, well, that person does this in some kind of hierarchy based upon this. Think about who is at the center of that ordered world because it's their will that everyone else is serving.

And then once you start to see that top down hierarchy, then you can start saying, well, he's going to need some second in command. You know, who's really good at this is Mike McClellan. He really did this extraordinary job in the sand sea because you know, he came up with his antagonistic force and then he found ways to put substrata beneath him. And they're all terrified and they're all going to do whatever this guy says because he's that powerful, right? And it goes all the way down to the foot soldier and all the way to his second in command. But no one doubts the fact that this person is just a force to be reckoned with. And it's probably better not to get on his bad side.

And we all know people like that. You know, I don't really want to be poking this hornet's nest of a human being because you know, it's not going to end well for me. So what do we do? We don't poke it. And then that person starts to suck up more and more agency of people around us. And the whole thing about a story is at some point you gotta say, sorry, dude, it's not your world. We don't live in it. And I'm not going to give you my agency and you're not going to take it from me. So that's a way to look at how to build a world based upon the core conflict and drama of a story. The world that the protagonist is. Is butting up against is the world of a powerful figure who wants things the way that he or she wants it. And they're not going to take no for an answer.

Okay, your thought is to start there and basically work backwards or work down or whatever direction.

Yeah. Like, we all have certain domains of skill that we would like. Like, for example.

In Story Grid Publishing, right.

Now, if I was so enamored with power.

And I used to be, I'm not saying that I'm not down and I still like power. But in terms of the power of a publishing house, the last thing that I'd ever want to do is to.

Hand over the direction of the publishing house to someone who doesn't have the experience that I have. Right. So I wouldn't want to do that because then I couldn't control the outcome. Then I would actually have to go along with the decisions of someone who may or may not have the experience that I do. So why in the hell would I do that? Well, because that's how new novel things happen, you know. So that's why you were the publisher of Storygrid Publishing, right.

You're writing your second novel right now, and yet you are, for all intents and purposes, in charge of what we publish, when we publish it and how we publish it. And yes, of course I'm here to help, but I'm not here to tell you what to do. I will say, well, I think that that might not be the best decision. Or, you know what? I don't know. That sounds kind of cool. Why don't you give it a try?

Well, actually, this morning we were talking about something in particular, and you're like, this sounds like a decision you should make.

Yeah, exactly. Why? Because those decisions are no longer.

One of the really great things about getting older is understanding just how.

Nominal certain decisions are and that you can walk things back. Nothing is, you know.

That important. And if you make a mistake, guess what? You can fix it. It's not the end of the world, because everyone makes mistakes. And the minute you say to somebody, oh, the reason why we don't do it like that anymore is because that was a mistake. And people are like, oh, okay, I get it. I've made mistakes. So when you get older, you stop worrying about making mistakes so much, and you also stop worrying about other people making mistakes, because that's what life is about. We make mistakes. When you're trying something new and novel, you're going to fail. That's cool. That's fine. You're supposed to. And the great thing about book publishing is that you can fail a lot, and nothing ever really falls apart as long as you identify the failure, do your best to fix it. And this is your philosophy. I got this from you more than myself.

So you're always like, let's take care of it now, because it'll snowball into the future if we don't fix that problem now. And it's a great way to handle it. And that's when I realized, you know, who'd be better publisher than me? Tim.

Well, that's. Jury's still out on that one, but we'll see how it comes together.

That's true. It's fine. Yeah. The worldview, it's like when you get stuck when you're talking about building a system, it's just like building a company.

Who is like, ahab is the CEO of the Pequod, and then he's got all these layers of people beneath him. Some he won't even talk to because they're so low on the totem pole. It's the same deal with your world. Who's. Who's the top of the Reapers?

Is there a top of the Reapers? Is. Are you going to use that as a point? Like, maybe nobody's in charge and everybody's listening to some sentient machine. I don't know. But that's interesting, too.

Yeah, I've got that worked out. I know.

So there's the Reapers. There's this High Council who we don't. So we're not going to actually see them. They're only discussed. They're off stage. But then there's two actual Reaper characters that are running the show in this one. And because that was, like, part of the thing is we never saw them in the first one. We'll get a glimpse. Well. Well, their main characters, they're the villains or the antagonist. And then, you know, the whole High Council will be center stage on. In the final book.

Right.

So I've got that figured out. I've got the names. You know, I've got who they are. I've got the power structure.

I've got a lot. I think I have a lot more of it than I think I do. It's just every time I have to put a bracket, another bracket in for the same thing, I'm like, why don't I know this yet?

Right?

And I start to get stressed out about it because it's just. Maybe it's just, you know, a while back, I was, like, having. I was really in, like, a funky mood one day, and I was talking to Candace about it, and she's like, you know, you don't have to attach this to anything. And I'm like, what do you mean? And she's like, I think you're just stressed. But, like, you don't have to decide. You don't have to, like, attach it to a thing that you're stressed about. Just see if it goes away without you doing anything. And of course, later that day, I was like, oh, I'm fine. And so I think this is just, like. As I'm getting close to the end of the book, I'm getting, you know, that, you know, it's really fun when you're writing it. And now it's like, oh, okay, I've got to actually look at this thing and decide if it's good or not. And then. So I'm getting stressed about that, and I think I'm just attaching it to, like, these three things I haven't named yet.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a really good point.

So. Because I'm. It's one of these, like, I feel really good. I feel really confident in what I've written, but at the same time, like.

You know, this is my. My first time doing something kind of on my own without you, like, going scene by scene with me. So now it's getting to that point where we've actually got to look at it and see how. How it's. You know, it's been nice to not have you rip apart my writing every week on the podcast.

So.

Because I just.

I just. A friend of mine went back to, like, the first episode and started listening, and he got to the one where you looked at that very first scene. He's like, oh, that was pretty rough. Yeah.

I think I'm just getting. Finding something to be stressed about instead of just the vagueness of this. It's getting. It's getting real now, because I'll be finished soon.

Yeah, that's. You know, Steve always says resistance is the hardest at the finish line.

Yeah. Yeah. So. And why. And I, like, when we. I can't remember if it was you or Steve who told me this first, but when we were doing something with some book and we were worried about something going wrong, it's like this. We're not curing cancer here, so if something goes awry. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's just a book. Nobody's like freaking out that something's wrong.

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