Making It, Episode 02: Becoming Comfortable with the Unknown | Presented by Squarespace

One of the hardest things about the beginning of entrepreneurship is that you just have to keep believing in this idea that you have over and over again for kind of a long time before there's any feedback, before there's anyone validating that besides yourself. Just to be like, this is good, this does matter, there's a reason you keep going to it, and just to keep following that, I think, is important.

That was Rachel Patak, the maker of Cassis, a blackcurrant liqueur fermented in the Hudson Valley. And this is Making It, an audio series from Squarespace about starting and sustaining a business today. I'm your host, Alex Wolff, and I believe that starting a business changes you. So I'm sitting down with creators and entrepreneurs to explore how they got their ideas off the ground and kept them going. These are our stories. Storing, pouring, mixing, and of course tasting. This is the soundtrack to Rachel's world as the founder and CEO of Current Cassis. After a decade in hospitality, running events and programming at hotels, Rachel decided it was time for a big change. In 2017, she started researching blackcurrants, a fruit that had long been outlawed in the U.S., and in 2020 launched her own business fermenting, bottling, and selling blackcurrant liqueur. Running a business for the first time and making a new kind of product meant Rachel had to reinvent her work constantly. That kind of real-time reinvention and the questions that come with it are something every entrepreneur knows all too well, but rarely talks about. And why don't we? In this episode, I'm digging into the emotional dimensions of entrepreneurship, and together we'll rethink how the factors that come with taking the plunge— doubt, vulnerability, weighing risks— can also be sources of strength and personal growth. First, we'll hear from Rachel about how becoming a new business owner helped her become more comfortable with the unknown. And then later in the episode, we're bringing on Open Mike Eagle, a musician whose critically acclaimed album Anime, Trauma, and Divorce has made him an expert in facing your insecurities head-on. But first, here's Rachel Patak on how she makes peace with uncertainty. Rachel, welcome. I'm very excited to speak with you today, and I'm really looking forward to getting to know more about you and Current Cassis.

Thanks so much, Alex. I'm so excited to be here.

So what is Current Cassis?

Current Cassis is an experimental blackcurrant company based in the Hudson Valley. So we make C. Cassis, which is a lightly fermented, low ABV blackcurrant liqueur. And we also play around with a lot of different things, all using locally grown blackcurrants in our studio.

You know, passion is a huge part of why we make our decisions to start our businesses, even though I feel like we get kind of tricked into it. Do you remember there being a particular moment moment that pushed you to, like, leave your old job. Do you remember that moment?

So there wasn't, like, one, you know, light bulb goes off, okay, this is what needs to happen. It was, like, maybe 8 months. There were 2 things happening simultaneously, right? I'm a new mom, and I'm working in event curation and production. I was being pulled in multiple different directions, and there was so much transition. And meanwhile, I had started playing around with and, like, being called to dive into the world of blackcurrants. And so I'm, like, falling in love with experimentation on the beverage side and raising a human being. And that felt insane to do while doing my job.

I wanna know kind of what you would tell folks who are going through that doubt storm right now.

One of the hardest things about the beginning of entrepreneurship is that you just have to keep believing in this idea that you have over and over again for kind of a long time before there's any feedback, before there's anyone validating that besides yourself. Just to be like, this is good, this does matter, there's a reason you keep going to it, and just to keep following that, I think, is important. And sometimes the answer is to get into the studio and do things that aren't heady. So like moving, you know, 200 pounds of fresh blackcurrants into a tank, lifting liquids, or like pressing things. And that work is exceptional for curing self-doubt 'cause you just— there's no space for it.

Absolutely. And I think believing in yourself sounds so much more inspirational than how it feels, right? It sounds like that's gonna be a pleasant experience, and it's really not. You know, I often talk about how people glamorize being a visionary as this really cool thing. But for those of us who are still in those beginning stages, like you're talking about, you're kind of just, like, possessed with your own vision that you think is so great, and you have to spend all your time trying to convince others how great it is and to, like, make it happen.

Yeah, it feels wild and it's lonely, right?

Yeah.

Having that process happen alongside having a small child was also really interesting because we have all these books for kids that are like, what do you do with an idea? Keep believing, keep dreaming. And I was definitely like telling my kid that, but also simultaneously like taking those messages and applying them, being like, right, I needed this too.

You're right. You're like, I'm bringing this book with me. Yeah, later on. Another intense obstacle that a lot of entrepreneurs come into contact with is just not expecting all these unknown unknowns. You might end up becoming a low-key historian or a low-key like lawyer, you know, because you have to do all this other contextual research to make this vision come to life. So I want to know what you would tell to other people who are dealing with these unexpected obstacles because We might feel like that's something we're doing is wrong, but what would you share about that?

Yeah, I would just say that it is really normal to not be an expert at every facet of what your path entails, and that the internet is your friend. You know, you're like Googling things constantly.

So you'll start to notice that You take risks in your life maybe differently after starting your business, or you just calculate decisions differently. So I wanna know, since starting Current Cassis, how your own relationship to uncertainty in life and risk, you know, might have changed.

What I feel like is that I have like a finite amount of risk that I'm like comfortable with, but when I started, Current Cassis. I just dumped the whole bucket into this one thing, and I noticed that I was much more risk-averse in certain other areas of my life because I was like, I'm all in on one thing right now. Like, I'm a horseback rider and I have been my whole life, and I noticed that I was just much less willing to cowgirl situations with a horse. Like, if the horse was doing things that felt a little more dangerous, I was more inclined to be like, No, I'm going to get off right now.

What I'm hearing, and correct me if I'm wrong, is almost you become more sensitive to uncertainty when it rises. I think I always tell folks that the second you know you're an entrepreneur is when you are by your desk and you're just like, I have no idea what I'm doing. That's the moment.

Every other day.

How has your identity as a mother informed your, your business or influenced the way your business runs?

Time management and being really decisive about where you're applying your time. I think the extent to which being an entrepreneur allows you to incorporate your kid or kids into the process, I think, is amazing and I don't think that it compromises the work. I actually think it enriches it. Like, having my son here in the studio is like a nice way to be playful and to remember how sometimes mundane tasks are actually more fun than I am thinking about them as being.

Totally. They help you become more present and appreciate the moment, I think.

Yeah.

Now, your company is Primarily you, but I imagine you're not going it alone all the way. So I wanna learn more about when you feel like you're on your own versus when you don't.

Yeah, I mean, when I have people working with me, it's primarily on the production of what we're doing. So it's bottling, waxing, labeling, taping. And I pay everyone well, I pay them fast. I think those things are important. And then I also make sure that the studio environment isn't just work. We open up each day with tank tasting, and everyone kind of, like, throws out whatever they're feeling. And we also open up mornings with readings. Someone will bring in a text that they want to read from, or if someone's written anything, they can read that. So just making an environment that feels enriching in more ways than just the work itself.

Now that you're at this phase or stage of your entrepreneurship, I'm curious how you feel or what you feel it has proven about you.

Is sports bra an identity? I just, like, what's changed since starting this is the necessity for Being ready to do a number of different types of work at any given moment. And if I don't think that I can spill blackcurrant all over whatever I'm wearing, I shouldn't wear it. It's just, that's real. The conversation we were having about that nebulous pre-launch believing in yourself, valuing yourself, That pays off. Like, the work that I've been doing is the hardest in, like, certain ways, but I'm also being the most supportive of myself that I ever have. And having that come from an internal place is massive.

I love that. That is, like, real stuff because it reminds me of when I wrote my book. It was almost the same experience where I was like, I'm nicer to myself now. You know what I mean? Like, I'm—

Yeah.

It's more self-compassion because just like with business or writing, it's so easy to just go in and be like, this is horrible. You're doing the worst job. Like, you got it wrong. And after you've stomached enough of that, you just realize, just be a little nicer to yourself, have a little bit more self-compassion. And who knew that after such a rough patch, you know, you do kind of come out Being softer and more polished in how you deal with yourself.

Not to like be cliché and bring it to tarot readings, but here we go. Some friends and I will, you know, we'll do them casually, just little 3-card readings. But there's this card that's called the Fool, which like there's a lot of ways to approach that idea of being the Fool, right? But I think it's a key to like being comfy in the entrepreneurial space is seeing the Fool as an opportunity and being really like freed by the idea of being a fool.

100%. The freedom that comes with it. It reminds me of the art of clownery, which is this idea that you don't have to take yourself too seriously. And by implementing that, you actually find a better experience.

Yeah.

So where would you say you find your contentment slash satisfaction in this experience of you starting your business?

I really think That it is the people in the community. We're purchasing from people who are pretty, like, immediately and directly located near where the studio is. So I'm buying blackcurrants from a guy in Stotsburg who's, like, the blackcurrant guy of the Northeast, and I pick up from him directly. There's wine that we use in part of our process, and we buy from these guys who have— Oh, that's so cool. taken over an old Hudson Valley winery and are converting it to biodynamic and make a specific blend for us. And we get to talk to them about what that is. And like, there's a really deep satisfaction in actually knowing and seeing the people that you're working with and are impacting you and you're impacting them.

I love that. It really does come down to relationships. I think those moments and those exchanges help you feel the relief of like, this is way bigger than money. This is about, like you said, community. And yes, if you're listening and you're like, I've heard this a million times, before, try it out. Once you actually experience it, you get it, I think. Thank you so much for, for coming on, Rachel. I'm really very curious about how this tastes, and I want to pair it properly. Thank you for your time.

Thank you so much for having me. We're obviously sending you a bottle, as many as you need.

That was Current Cassis founder Rachel Patak. You can find out more about her work at cassis.com. That's the letter C twice, A-S-S-I-S dot com. After my conversation with Rachel, I wanted to take a deeper look at the idea of doubt and how it can be rearticulated as a source of strength. As a society, we put so much emphasis on being the expert and being sure-footed in everything we do. And at the same time, there's a groundswell of people, from psychologists to celebrities, who are talking about the importance of vulnerability. So we called up someone who has personal experience to ground this question: Open Mike Eagle, a comedian, musician, and podcast host whose album Anime, Trauma, and Divorce uses music to talk about trauma. Broken as it began. You struck an original trauma.

Part of me wears an invisible armor. Part of me knows I have all that I need. Part of me hurts when the others succeed. When it comes to sharing vulnerability with my audience, it was something that I had to make a very intentional step towards because my natural inclination is to not do that. My natural inclination is to kind of wall myself off. From people and make work that kind of points outward instead of inward. I do think there's a difference in being vulnerable as a business owner. I think it's different than being vulnerable as an employee. I think that when you're an employee, there's just a lot that you have to prioritize above how you feel, because ultimately you are— Serving someone else's whims. You're executing someone else's creative, basically. Even if it's a business where you make cups, somebody designed them, somebody has decided what the output will be, somebody has decided what the packaging will be. And if you're an employee in that system, you're executing these other people's vision. And there's not a lot of room, or there's not as much room for you to make decisions as an individual. In that process. And that's something that you kind of sign up for in exchange for the paycheck is this kind of understanding that you're going to limit the amount of yourself that you bring to that situation. I do think that a lot of workplaces are moving in a direction of being more open and communal and sharing. I think Where those things meet vulnerabilities is always going to be tricky because, again, at the end of the day, if you're an employee, there is a limit to how much of you they want. I used to think of things in terms of jobs that want your hands. That's not limited to construction or something like that. It could even be if you're doing data entry someplace, it's not asking you to think about anything. And typically those jobs— pay less than the jobs that want your mind. They want your creativity. They want your attention and your focus. And even though the jobs that want your mind want more of you, there's still a limit to how much they want. They might not want your heart. And then, you know, you as a person have to figure out how to deal with the fact that this job wants my whole-ass mind and none of my heart. And like, how do I deal with that? Not everybody is fit to deal with that. Not everybody can compartmentalize that easily. And I think that can create a lot of tension in a person because they want to give their all, but there's no place for their all because that's not what the job wants. One thing I often think about is tattoos. I think that for a lot of my life, I was conditioned to only get tattoos in places that I could cover up because the expectation is that I would be in a workplace. And it dawned on me a few years ago that the opposite of that, getting tattoos completely all over your body, is not only a statement of the value or how much somebody enjoys tattoos, it's also a statement to the world that— I no longer believe I have to wear work clothes. These tattoos, in a sense, are my work clothes. This is my uniform that I have earned by doing X, Y, and Z, and putting myself in a space where I no longer have to think about whether or not this button-up shirt is going to cover up all the ink on my body. I do think that in and of itself, Tattoos can be a uniform. It can be a statement to the world of what kind of work you do and don't do. I think the biggest advice I would give is just the notion of really having a sense of the market that you're in. If you want to pivot, if you want to start a new product, if you want to have a new strategy, I just think it's really important to know Who you're targeting. It's important to know what people that consume that product, like how they're spending their money. I just think a lot of times we make moves on ideas that we think can be good on paper and kind of move without getting a sense of the real data. You know, I think maybe I'm extra sensitive to that because I'm coming from an independent creative space where just about every move is made without data. It's almost like data's looked down upon in creative business, but I think that's not a good way to look at it. And I think that in the current era that we're in, we have the most tools to get the most data ever. And I think it's really useful to have all of that when you're making decisions.

That was Open Mike Eagle. Talking to Rachel and hearing from Mike made me think about how all these changing identities can make you feel vulnerable as an entrepreneur. People are feeling more and more comfortable sharing about their personal struggles publicly, and that's normal and honestly something exciting to embrace since you're on this journey. Thanks so much for joining us for Squarespace's Making It. I hope that this episode validates your experience as you navigate all your identities as an entrepreneur. If you're commuting right now and not able to take notes, we've got you covered. You can find links, extra resources, and a way to communicate with us in our show notes. If tuning in today has taught you something, spread the knowledge. It'd mean so much to us if you'd take a moment to share your favorite episode with your friends. And if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, This show is produced by Work by Work and Squarespace. Scott Newman, Gemma Rose Brown, Jenny Mills, Emily Shaw, Kevin Abapor, Benjamin Shapiro, Kate Newman, and by me, Alex Wolff. The show is mixed by Sam Bair. I'm always talking about the intersection of culture and tech, and I invite you to join me on social media at my handle, @AlexWolff. Thank you so much for listening.

Bye.