E35: Building a Multi-Product Platform with Seismic's CRO, Hayden Stafford

Hello and welcome to the Revenue Leadership Podcast by Topline. I'm your host, Kyle Norton, CRO at Owner.com, and every Wednesday we dive deep into the strategies and tactics being used to drive success by the best revenue leaders in the world. So join me as I sit down with revenue operators to discuss actionable frameworks that you can implement in your business today with no fluff, No sales pitches and no platitudes.

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Today's guest is Hayden Stafford, who is the President and CRO at Seismic. Hayden turned the Microsoft Dynamics business from a measly $750 million ARR business unit to a $6 billion CRM powerhouse. And over his 27-year career, he's managed multi-billion-dollar go-to-market ops with teams of 3,500 plus and has led a bunch of really interesting transformations, which we're going to unpack today. Going through financial crises, COVID, which we all experienced, going from SMB to enterprise, point solution to platform. And we're going to talk about specifically the transformation at Seismic, going from a single product company to a multi-product platform, a bunch of the lessons that he brought from Microsoft along the way. For those of you who don't know Seismic, they are well on their way to $500 million in ARR 1400 employees. It's one of the marquee solutions in the enablement content management. You'll give me the better elevator pitch, but really excited about this one, Hayden. Appreciate you taking the time.

Of course, Kyle Norton. Really enjoyed doing this. Love your format as well, kind of going deep on a few topics versus shotgun scatter conversation. So delighted to be here. Looks like it's a sunny day where you are as well. Based on that.

Yeah, yeah.

Though, behind you.

I'm in San Francisco today, so it's sunny today. In another hour, it could be foggy, it could be cold. You never know with this place. Totally. So just for folks who don't know, like, what is Seismic? What's the elevator pitch? And what else did I miss in your background that you want to let people know about?

Yep. Well, you hit it on the head. We are well on our way to a half a billion. We are about 1,400 people at the company. We are the global leader in revenue enablement. So, you know, the right content with the right context for the right client interaction. Everything from onboarding and training through to getting the right presentation or the right artifact to send to your customer, to engaging with them or your prospects and getting the analytics back, unifying all of your go-to-market teams from marketing and ops and enablement to CROs and revenue leaders. To the AEs, the CSMs, the partner teams. That's where we play. So definitely a platform play with multi-personas that have a stake in Seismic.

Yeah. And we're going to talk about the persona evolution in a big way because I thought that was a fascinating takeaway. So the topic is how to go from product to platform, but just before we dive into the how and the why, maybe just define for people, 'cause this word gets thrown around a lot, like what is a platform and what makes it different in terms of company building?

Yeah, not using us, Seismic, as any context, but a lot of companies start solving a single problem, whether it's a security problem, it's an infrastructure problem, it's a data center problem, it's a sales problem, whatever the case may be, generally, well, you know what, let's use Salesforce. When they first came out, they solved for CRM. They were a CRM product company. And then as a company grows, they begin to offer more and more features and functions that stitch together the various connection points that a seller might need or a sales manager might need. So you go from solving a single problem to being able to solve a number of different opportunities with varying product capabilities. Some of them may be adjacent, some may be completely disconnected and solving a different purpose. That's how I would define a platform. And the most important piece, it's all integrated, it's all on one platform. Implementation for each of those pieces doesn't have to be another Herculean task. That work is done for customers by platform company owners.

Right. And is this an eventuality for most companies as they graduate into the hundreds of millions of ARR? Is it essentially a necessity that people go from, you know, a more verticalized solution to something that is more platform-oriented?

Based on my experience, Kyle, it has to be. I think those who don't extend and, you know, reach further into other capabilities will likely get usurped or passed. I was just at a major event for Bank of America yesterday as an example. It was their top vendor partners and they talked about point solutions and they talked about platforms. It's on the minds of the biggest companies in the world. They don't want to necessarily have the best of breed for one little thing. They want the best of platform, which may mean good enough for some capabilities. So if you are a single point product, point solution company, you will not always win with the larger enterprises who are looking for a best of, best of platform versus best of breed.

Right. And so you guys are super deep in all the biggest banks, financial services. It was a big sector. You are largely selling into true enterprise. Is that, is that correct at Seismic?

100% correct. About 85% of our business is enterprise, and we define enterprise as anything from, call it, 3,000 employees up. That being said, we have plenty of smaller companies and it's equally applicable. But for what we solve for, larger, more complicated organizations benefit most. From engaging a company like Seismic. And we did start in banking. Our first 5, 6 years was almost entirely asset management, wealth management, and corporate and business banking.

Mm-hmm. Because of the compliance requirements and the necessities there.

Yeah, exactly. And we were a one-trick pony then. We were a content automation provider. So we helped financial services organizations create compliant and on-time assets that they distributed to their customers. You get it wrong, you get a fine, that sort of thing within banking. And we did that very well for a long period of time. But as is the case with anyone who has a point product, you begin to run out of TAM. So it's all about, you know, total addressable market expansion, TAM expansion.

So let's just pull on that thread. So Seismic was a single product content automation platform, mostly in FinServ. And like, what is the platform now and how do you describe it to folks in terms of the—

So yes, we started automating content. So think you get a prospectus from Fidelity or Vanguard, a fund you have with Vanguard, fact sheets from asset managers. It's information about the thing that they have, whether it's a fund or it's an asset class. It, you know, you've got performance reviews, you've got peer benchmarks, you've got fund managers, descriptions of holdings, those sorts of things. We did a lot of that for all the largest asset managers and big, big banks. We started to create all of this stuff and you know, came to the realization you need to store this somewhere. And what I, as maybe a bonds guy, I sell bonds in bond funds. I want to see bond stuff. You want to see equity stuff or you want to see fixed income stuff. So we had to separate it so that you could only see what you were entitled to see or what you needed to see. So we quickly then moved into once you create the stuff, you got to store it somewhere and store it in a compliant manner and allow it to be shared with the people who it's allowed to be shared to. As we develop that capability, it became very clear large technology companies were very similar. They didn't have obviously the compliance constraints, but you had sellers in California and customer success managers in Germany that had very, very different needs. Of what they needed to see and what they shared. So why bother polluting your SharePoint site or your G Drive site with all this stuff and you have to find it? So then we branched into content management. Then we got into obviously the learning aspect and learning from the standpoint of field readiness. If you're launching a new product, if you're, you know, you're running a new sales play or you're expanding in a new geo, How do you know your team's ready? How do you get them ready? So that's the learning aspect. Again, content is core here, right? Because it drives the learning materials. And then we really got into the space of like the meeting itself. How are your teams preparing for meetings? How are they conducting their meetings? The follow-up actions. We all know that prompt follow-up is king, right? So kind of that whole, that whole experience with the customer for that big meeting. And then obviously the last piece is just engaging with the customers with content and getting the insights and analytics back from them around what they're looking at, how long they're looking at, who they might be sharing it with. All of this fits within that idea of the right content with the right context for the right client. That's, that's who we are. We span a number of point solutions. There are plenty, tons of very good point solution learning customers like LMS type stuff. There are tons of content management systems out there. There are tons of visualization and data analytics companies out there. There are great companies that allow for sending of assets to customers. Hell, just your email is a good example, but we represent a platform that brings it all together. And almost as important that it's all together on one platform, seamless single sign-on contextual experience is that it integrates well and is plugged into other platforms such that you don't have to necessarily do application flipping. So everything I just talked about from onboarding an employee to getting them ready to sell your new widget, to consuming content, building content, sending content to a customer. That can all be done within Outlook, within Salesforce, you know, any other platform of that nature, Google, G Drive, G Suite. That's our platform interacting with other platforms. Makes sense.

Very interesting.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so what was the timeline? Across going from just content management for asset managers to adding LMS to adding the meeting stuff to adding the customer touchpoints? Was this every year there was a launch or like, just gimme the scope of it.

Yeah, it's a great question and it's actually a very relevant question to kind of why I came on board to the company. And why they came looking. We were an automation-only company for, I'd say, 3 years, 4 years. I could be off by a year or two. Then we got into content and that was it for probably until about 2018, '19, maybe even 2020. I'd say 2018, let's call it that. And then we bought a couple companies that gave us added capabilities. Give you a good example. There are loads of point solutions out there for sharing content over LinkedIn or over Twitter or X. There's lots of point solutions to do that. But doing it in a compliant way with the content that's been approved by your marketing team or your legal team or whatever, we do that. We bought a company to do that. So we started a round of acquisitions in the 2018 timeframe. And that's when we started to accelerate the platform concept. Okay.

And you joined 2022?

That's correct. Okay.

So the company knew that they were going multi-product towards platform. You had done this, run this sort of transformation in Dynamics. Perfect guy for the role. Makes, makes a ton of sense. Yeah.

I mean, they definitely, they definitely had already been on the way. The big piece was preparedness for public markets, as an example, better, better controls, better process, more visibility, and also just expansion, expansion of our markets. So that was, that was one of the reasons. And I came on just as we were buying that learning capability. So we bought a company that provided skills, competencies, field readiness, We bought them in late 2021.

And so, I mean, at the time you would've had, you could've had tons and tons of different roles. What was it about Seismic that made you feel like this was the right thing? Because this was a bit of a leap, like, you know, where the company is now compared to 3, 4 years ago.

Huge leap.

And so what did you see? How did you make this decision as a CRO? 'Cause I get this question from people all the time.

It's— yeah, it's a great question. So one thing is I've always wanted to take a company public for decades. I've always wanted to go through that roadshow and go through that experience. So that little inkling was always there. Couple, couple of reasons really jumped to mind. Number one, I had run a very good long career course at big companies. Ernst Young, IBM, Salesforce, Microsoft, right? Just big, big companies. And I wanted to have more in a lot of those companies. Put it this way, Kyle Norton, a lot of those companies I had all of the accountability and little of the authority. So, you know, I'd get hauled in in front of— at Microsoft as an example, hauled in front of the board or Satya and the senior leadership team and, you know, hung, drawn, and quartered for quarterly performance when I owned that small piece. And I'd always wanted to work within an organization that was smaller, where kind of I had a little bit more control. That was one piece. Number two, I'm a huge believer in enablement. There are some CROs that say, hey, it's enablement's problem, let them deal with it. I think a team singing off the same sheet of music all rowing at the same pace is an amazing thing. So at my last company that I was at, I globalized the enablement function as opposed to allow it to be in each of the departments. So that was point number 2. And point number 3, a great, great culture with a great CEO. Doug Winter is our founder and CEO, just a wonderful human being. He's a friend. As much as he's my boss. And it's a culture here of helping each other, supporting each other, and doing whatever is necessary, even to our detriment, to help a customer. Those were the reasons why I joined.

But there must have— there would have had to be some strategic leap because the business is so different today than it was 3 years ago. Like, what was it in, in sort of the raw building blocks that made you say, Okay, I can, I can take this from X to Y. And, and because Seismic, 3 and a half years ago, good business, probably not on the like IPO trajectory the way it is today. Not to blow smoke, but, uh, what did you see there that made you— and how did you dig in to know that the component parts were there to turn it to what it is today?

Yeah, so, um, when I was at Microsoft we bought Seismic, the software. I saw it. I knew what it was like. We did a review of it and looked at it at the company after that. And it was, you know, I saw, I saw what was happening there and I believed in it. Then it was after that, the experience that I had had without a sound enablement team and enablement software at my last company, truly, it was chaos. It was chaos. Our CS team was not aligned with our sales team. They had different priorities, different requirements, and hence the need to pull them together. So what I saw was a leader, an industry leader. Seismic is number one in this space, a great culture, and a ton of upside. That's what really moved it for me. Yeah.

And the upside, like specifically the upside, What was it that made you feel like, okay, that upside is there? Was it looking into the strategy and going, oh, well, there's all these things, and if I do X, Y, and Z, we'll drive even faster growth? I'm curious what the specific kernels of that upside were.

It feels like it was ages ago. I mean, I feel you're a CRO as well, Kyle. It's like the pace we progress. It's dog years. It's dog years. Feels like forever ago. I think the upside for me was they had just bought a learning platform which kind of rounded out the platform. It was a big gap. They always partnered— Seismic had always partnered with companies that provided it.

Right.

For me, what the kernel was, was all the piece parts are there, but they as a company at that time were not rowing in the same direction. You had a leader because they, they brought the different roles up underneath me. Kyle, that's a piece I probably should have given some context on. These were different leaders reporting up into the CEO with different priorities, different measurements of success. And for me, it was if I'm going to make this jump, that full accountability, responsibility from marketing all the way through to ongoing support, the upside was just so big. And I was, I was ready to do something small. I'm an older guy, may not look it, right? I look like I'm in my 30s, but I hope that this is the swan song of my career of taking 30 years of experience and bringing it to a company that's scaling and growing. Yeah.

Okay. Very cool. So I'm curious to think through the component parts of going to a platform strategy. Like what's different about go-to-market for a single product versus a multi-product company? What are the building blocks that somebody needs to have in place to make this work?

Okay. So I'm going to share something, Kyle, that's a little vulnerable and maybe something that, you know, other CROs wouldn't share. But when I first got here, business was booming. We had just acquired this other company and we kept it largely intact and those sellers sold their stuff. Legacy folks sold their stuff. I joined right at the beginning of the new fiscal year where we did away with overlays and whatnot, and we immediately struggled with growth. Perennial successful winners, year-over-year President's Club, you know, Circle Club winners weren't winning. And for my first year, year and a half, I was beating myself up like, What's going on here? Why am I— now, granted, everyone knows a lot. The market changed. Of course, this is 2020.

You joined and things totally—

2022. This is right when everything started to decline. Growth decelerated forever. But I was still like, why aren't my bestsellers winning? And I actually did a little bit of a sabbatical. I went on a fishing trip with two friends down in Baja, Mexico. To spend a lot of time staring at the water and the end of my fishing pole to think about this. And it dawned on me, the perennial winners who were 100% or above year in, year out, were really damn good at selling the world's best sales content management system. And that was all they sold. And who did they sell it to? They sold it to one buyer. Usually the head of enablement or the head, the COO, right? They had one buyer and one product to sell. Now all of a sudden they've got the complexity of 4 different products all integrated to one that has a value proposition for 4 different personas. And you're selling on the benefit of the platform, which means you've got to anchor back on a value proposition and not just say, I got a better mousetrap. Much more strategic. Yeah, far, far more strategic. And I'll tell you what, Kyle, 3.5 years later, we have moved from people that were not making their plan who had prior made their plan, who were used to selling a single product, who are now making their plans and very comfortably selling the platform, which, by the way, this year is one of our OKRs. It's one of our company priorities. Is platform excellence and, you know, being good at not only selling it but using it and talking the virtues of it. So we have come through that transition over the last 3.5 years and we did it at a time while the markets were compressing.

That's an understatement, especially in your business.

Yeah, that got killed over the last 3 years. Yeah.

You guys made it through. So I want to unpack that whole enablement journey in a bit. But so you got— I just want to clear up definitions for people. So when you say you got rid of overlay reps, talk to me about the transition you made in the go-to-market strategy and what you mean by like getting rid of overlay reps. Yeah.

Now you're getting into the good stuff. We had bought this company. It's Lessonly. The company was called Lessonly. Yeah.

Yeah.

They were very, very well known for providing skills and training for sellers. Not like, you know, security compliance training or sexual harassment or, you know, anti-money laundering or anything like that. It's skills and readiness for sellers, right? Or for revenue folks. We brought them on and we kept them as a separate group and we double comped. So if you, Kyle Norton, had Johnson Johnson as your customer and you smelled a learning opportunity, you brought me, the learning specialist, in. We both came in, sold the value prop, sold the benefit, and we both got paid at 100%. Talk about expensive. And a lot of companies do that. A lot of companies do a lot of double comping. And I'm a big fan of specialization for certain things, but not double quoted comp for sellers. And that's the trick with platform. You know, at Microsoft, go back to Microsoft, we had so many different products. We had ERP and within ERP, financials, You have supply chain, you've got human capital management, and then CRM, you've got Salesforce Automation, you've got marketing automation, you got service automation. Then we had Power Automate, Power Apps, right? Yes. So you have all these hugely different products that could easily have been a case for let's have a specialist for financial, financial, for each one of them. No, the model that I take is specialization needs to occur with the, with the technical roles within the company. So think solution engineer, sales engineer, architects. You need to be wide enough and deep enough as a seller to be able to get good enough. Remember I said before, best of breed, best of platform. You don't need to be an expert. You need to have experts that you can lean back on in the business. And that's what we didn't have at the time. We had just a shadow team that was selling the other product. We did it for 8 months.

Wow.

So I know more, almost a year.

Interesting. And so, so part of this platform transformation is we need a new go-to-market strategy instead of overlays and double comp. We're now saying the strategy is one core rep with high levels of business acumen, you can speak to the C-suite, and you have technical folks now filling in the gaps. I would imagine then there's also, so there's a go-to-market strategy piece, but then there's a related talent piece, either upskilling or bringing in new people. What was the combination of you just needed new reps that could sell a platform, versus you upskilled current team? And how did you think about that?

I am a big believer, Kyle Norton, if you've got a good athlete, they can play any game. I look for athletes when we hire and it's pretty evident who the athletes are. They just, they jump higher, they run faster, they work out harder, right? I mean, these are all kind of analogies to a sport, I think anyone who's in revenue leadership knows what I mean. You can train them and, you know, guess what? I know a good company that can help you train people and enable people to transform. So we put a hell of a lot of effort into using our own products, obviously, to upskill and uplevel the folks in the organization. We had one other complexity we added in buying this company. Lessonly was largely downmarket. They were almost entirely SMB. They did have some enterprise, but I'd say 70 to 80% was SMB. So not only did we have the specialization, but all of a sudden we had to have a team that serviced and supported downmarket customers.

Okay.

We put quite a bit of time into like segmentation and ICP and ideal customer profile and looking at territories. And at the same time, we took a big effort at building a new narrative, building the new skills. We took a heavy value angle, right? You didn't have to sell value really if someone wanted a mousetrap. You got to sell value and you've got multiple products. And frankly, some single products are better at other companies who are single SKU companies. So we took a major value angle. We did a lot around narrative, like stand and deliver practices and just repetitive motions of getting the narrative right. And again, we used our own products to do a lot of this.

Okay, cool. So there's the go-to-market strategy team construction, which is going to going to core reps plus SEs. There's the segmentation question, so rejigging how the organization is shaped. There's talent, and largely you upskilled internally. Enablement, which is skills and narrative. What about ecosystem? So Microsoft is world famous for this crazy ecosystem. How big was ecosystem at Seismic before? And is that a— Is that a thing that changes as you go from single product to platform?

Yeah. I think if you ask 10 CROs what an ecosystem means to them, you're gonna get 20 answers, right? There's no common point of view of what a channel means. And we were definitely like that when I joined. Largely a prove it to me mindset. Show me that channel can do this. And we didn't have it. We didn't have a channel. We had a channel team, but it was largely running around and matchmaking. Let me connect you to this partner, that partner. Co-development, co-branding, co-selling, and developing product together and solutions. That was foreign when I first joined. In fact, just today, today will be different from when people listen to this. A blog was written by Salesforce on our behalf about Seismic being an anchor partner and a huge productivity driver for Agentforce. When your partners are writing blog posts about you that you didn't write for them, you know, you've kind of crested the hill in terms of relevance with your partners.

So you guys are helping their customers learn to— or you're helping Salesforce learn to sell Agentforce or their customers?

Yeah, it's— so we have 80% of our channel partners. Yep. They are a partner. So Agentforce for them is a consumption-based product. And they, the reps don't get paid unless AgentForce is getting consumed. And the best way to consume it is to drive enablement actions within Salesforce via AgentForce. So we are kind of the square peg for the square hole for them. They need channel partners to go make the consumption possible for AgentForce. And for us, it's a benefit because in order to have it work, they've gotta have our AI capabilities turned on. So it's a true, I scratch your back, you scratch my back symbiotic relationship of solutioning together. This wouldn't have been possible had we not had the access to their product teams to develop what we have today. Very, very proud of what we've accomplished with Salesforce.

Very cool. I want to get more into this. I just want to zoom out a touch.

Yeah.

So how do you think about partner selection? I think one of the challenges with channel is like everything sounds exciting, channel or technical partnerships, everything sounds exciting at the beginning. You can get all greased up about it, but then it doesn't actually produce the result you want after the fun press release. So how do you think about selecting the right partners? What's, what's the criteria and how do you think about the strategy of that?

The best partnerships are where we both succeed. We both get benefit out of it. A lot of smaller companies think that they have a strong partnership with an Adobe, Salesforce, Microsoft, and SAP, when in fact There is none. It's a listing on a partner exchange. You are not relevant to a partner and a partner is not relevant to you unless they bring accretive value to each other. So for me, selection of partners has to be purely based around least amount of friction and best lift for our business. And they're doing the same. These, these partners. Partners. And there are multiple different forms of partnerships, obviously, Kyle. There's just standard co-selling, then there's embed partners where you, you are building your product into them or them into you. And there you get the, the nirvana state of, you know, rev share. Because otherwise it's all just attributed revenue with co-sell. Rev share agreements, OEM agreements, embedded software agreements are the— that's the nirvana state. And it is not easy. At Microsoft, you know, one of our, one of our biggest successes was an unbelievable network of partners. Yeah, it was also a gate. It was a major gate for us because they owned the interaction with customers when I first joined there in 2014, where we got to over the course of the 7 years that I was there was almost interchangeable. Seismic part— I mean, Microsoft partner person, Microsoft person, partner person. You couldn't tell the two apart, but it started where it was purely partner people at the accounts. Yeah, that's a wonderful place to be.

Yeah. And the Microsoft reps sort of do an order taking and back office and you, you change that in a big way.

You got that right. The incentives were completely upside down. Incentivization of channel is everything. Remember I talked about we scratching each other's backs? If you don't have the comp structures right, partners don't want to work with you. Your team doesn't want to work with the partners. Anchor on the comp structures and the incentives first. Once you think you've got a partner strategy and then sound it off to partners and see if it resonates.

And so I want to go back to partner selection. So they have to bring a creative value, least friction for most lift. How do you identify what is a creative value? Because so much of the time it sounds great on paper and then isn't in reality. So what are you really looking for at sort of the middle funnel to understand if this is something you really want to go deep on?

Yeah, I look at the metrics that matter. I try to anchor everything back to business metrics.

Metrics.

And I'll give you an example of one. When a partner is involved, is my win rate materially improved? So what's my win rate look like when I'm partnering with X partner? And that could be a small other ISV, or it could be a big, big partner like an Accenture, right? Is— are my business metrics meaningfully different? Is my velocity, days in stage, total deal cycle, is that going down? Meaning, you know, shorter deals. Is my win rate going up? Is my renewal rate far superior when I've got embedded partner technology in my solution? Those are the metrics I look for.

Yeah. Platform depth. Okay.

Yeah.

And then having the really open and honest conversation with the partner about their metrics. Metrics, I would imagine.

That's right. That's right. So I'm glad you brought that up. As a revenue leader, you do your monthly rhythm of the business, right? You've got your weekly forecast calls, you got your monthly business reviews, you got your quarterly business reviews, you have the cascade of all that sort of stuff going on. You've got your pipeline reviews. Are you doing the same thing with your partners? If you're not, It's not a relevant piece of your business. Are you inspecting pipeline with your partners? Both sides? Are you looking at win rates? Are you looking at, you know, quota attainment? You know, if you're not setting those targets with the partner and they're not investing the time with you around those targets and the measurement of progress against them, it's not a real partnership.

That's a really good point. Uh, and so I want to go back to selection. So how do you, how do you forecast that ahead? I think like if you have the metrics and you're currently stood up, that, that's, it's, it's great, but how do you pick who to go deep with?

Yeah, um, look, it comes back to the platform, right? Um, when you look back at your platform, you've got a couple decisions. You've got to go buy it. Like, I'm going to go buy that product capability. I'm going to go build it. I'm going to build it into my system. I'm going to build this widget, build this capability, or I'm going to go partner. And we have a number of good partners that we use for like RFP management, SOW management, proposal management. We could do that on our own, but we're not complete enough. We are capable with that content automation I talked talked about. But we knew that we had to do so much work to just make it passable. We're like, we're not going to buy it. It's not core and critical. We're not going to build it because it would take too much effort. We're going to go partner with this because we, you know, we know that capability is wanted by our customers. And let's bring someone in super tight that's fully integrated almost OEM'd, and we get revenue for bringing them in and they get revenue from us for bringing us in, in the case where they— someone might be looking for an RFP solution but ends up going with the bigger, broader one. So that's how we look at things. Any channel team, partner team that any of your listeners have, if they are not meeting regularly with your product team, And I mean regularly, meaning weekly, maybe biweekly, then you're not doing service to your partner organization. You are just a co-selling relationship with partners, which again is not really beneficial to anyone.

Okay, makes sense.

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So in terms of the, the component pillars of being ready-to-go platform, there's the go-to-market strategy stuff, talent and enablement, relatively straightforward. Ecosystem seems like a must-have. It seems like if you really want to be a platform, you have to have an ecosystem of implementation partners, channel, and product partners.

Yep, yep. I would absolutely say that that is necessary to have a complete platform, for sure.

What else is important for folks that are thinking about this journey for themselves? So, you know, like, I have two products, I'm about to launch or build or buy a third, we, we want to go down this like platform path. What else do they really need to make sure they, they have nailed before they start the journey?

Um, two things jumped right to mind. There's the pricing and packaging. The sum of the parts, um, how do the sum of the parts add up versus, uh, you know, single point solutions bought separately? So a sound pricing and packaging strategy, that is a no-brainer for customers to do that best of platform versus best of breed decision. That's number one. Put the cycles into that. We actually are going through a new iteration of that, of pricing and packaging. And we have— we're not cutting corners and we're using external third party to help.

Simon Kucher, somebody charging you an arm and a leg.

Yeah, that's right. The second piece is business value and a business value consulting team or business value engineering, whatever people call it. As you get into more and more parts of a platform, that's more and more wallet share that you're taking from a customer, which means more and more resistance to buy. Because it's a bigger number. A platform company with a big bank is going to have big dollars, which means big scrutiny over a big line item. Whereas if you're a point solution and you're, you know, $300K and that's it, you're going to be happy as a pig in shit. Like, I don't know if I can say that, but because they're never going to churn you, you're not on anyone's radar. But as soon as you become an 8-figure number on a CIO's desk, you better have a damn good value story pulled together. So that's, that's the second piece is a team that is able to articulate and is somewhat arm's length from the sales team around why that customer should be paying the dollars they spend for your platform.

And so tell me more about arm's length. That's a really interesting nugget there.

Yeah. There are different points of view on this, but some people believe that every AE and sales engineer should be able to do—

An ROI calculator.

ROI calculator. But, you know, it's obviously more than that. It's also business impact, and that takes specialization. But a seller has a bias. It's all my stuff. Retire, quote them, make money, make my commission check. I do believe your value consulting team should be levered towards success, but it should be more levered towards success that is aligned with your customer success. So a little bit more around retention rates, a little bit more around NSAT or CSAT or NPS, however you measure success. But having a team that is not directly tied with a hard and fast 50/50 quota like sales team gives them a little bit of like third-party perspective versus being the, the commission killer. So that's what I mean. And also, if they're at arm's length, they're not there fighting for necessarily the immediate progression. They become a valued consultant. About am I getting this right from the customer's point of view? A really, really good value consultant becomes a long-term partner for customers.

And I was just about to ask that. So does this person stay through implementation and then a renewal? Like, how deep does this relationship go?

Hell yes, absolutely. I call it the value continuum. If anyone from Seismic is listening to this, they're going to roll their eyes. So many companies make the mistake of using value engineering, value consulting upfront to get the deal closed, and then they all forget about the value that was delivered. And guess what? 3 years down the line, when the CIO of— pick the company, but this time we'll pick Procter Gamble. We'll pick Home Depot. CIO looks at it and goes, $10 million for seismic? That's made up, by the way. That's not a customer. You're going to have to defend that. So therefore you've got your value sold. That's where the people typically play. The delivery. Are you delivering on the value promise? Is the platform built correctly? Is the methodology aligned to the final outcome? Like that services team is not there to deliver a content system. They're there to deliver a seamless customer experience system. And then most importantly, your CSM team, are they measuring? If we sold you this deal and said we're going to drop ramp time of new hires by 20% and you're going to lift your, your win rate by 15%, someone's got to be measuring it.

And so is that a conversation upfront with the customer that you, that you're saying, or is this maybe even data you have available in Seismic out of the box? You're saying like, we want to share this data, are you comfortable? Is that in the contract?

That was not part of our lexicon 2 years ago. It is absolutely 100% part of our lexicon now. Uh, when I meet with customers, when our team meets I mean, in fact, I would love, Kyle, to build into our, our MSA agreements, you know, master service agreements. I'd love to build language in that says we— anonymized, of course— we want to look at CRM data to showcase kind of an A/B test. Like, what was it like before you bought us? And what's it like a year later when you bought us? I, we would— I would love to add that in. I suspect it would cause a lot of consternation and heartburn. But we are certainly talking to customers about measure, and I'm talking to CROs about it when we're doing deals. I'm like, I want to measure this stuff. So that's very common. Set the expectation early in the sales cycle. I was on with the CRO today of a company probably every one of your listeners has used, and I talked to her about being able to measure the value and being a reference a year from now. Once we're able to determine that we're providing the benefit that we said we could.

Makes a lot of sense. And so arm's length means that this group is where? In finance, in RevOps? Where does value engineering live? Or what are you— what are you calling it again?

Value consulting. Value consulting. Value consulting. BBC. Again, kind of the question of you ask 10 people, you can get 20 answers. Definitely not into your sales leader. I don't consider myself a sales leader. I'm a CRO, but I'm a revenue leader. I would have them report directly into the CRO is what I would do.

Okay.

Position it.

And that's how yours is set up. How mine is today. Okay. That's really interesting.

Reports directly to me. It's that important. And it's not just selling the value, it's measuring the value delivered. Right? Value sold, value delivered, value realized. I call that the value continuum. So actually, my marketing team keeps correcting me. It's not value sold, it's value promised. Okay.

So value promised, value delivered, value realized.

That's correct. So I suggest placing it directly into the CRO. And, you know, it could be a head of strategy that has that team on it, but I would keep it out of the direct quota team. I have also heard of some folks placing it within other divisions outside of go-to-market, like CFO you mentioned, as well as marketing.

Okay. Fascinating. So I want to switch gears and talk about the change in sales motion. So you mentioned big enablement investment to get people to go from selling one product, there's a bunch of reps all selling their individual things, to now a platform positioning. Um, how does the, how does the message in the sales motion change? Uh, first, and then I'm going to get into how to architect it. So like, what are the biggest differences between a product positioning and a platform positioning as you teach it to your team?

Yeah, um, a platform generally touches multiple stakeholders, benefactors. Um, product messaging typically is very speeds and feeds, if you will. It does this, it has this capabilities, very product feature function oriented. You know, it can solve your problem 5 times faster, or it can help throughput rate increase by 2x. It's very specific to one thing, and it's specific to that buyer. A product typically is bought and sold by someone who is very knowledgeable about that one category. On the platform side, this is where when you, when you're in a platform, it's not just we're selling a platform. You got to have a marketing team that reflects platform messaging and support. You, you need to have your product team oriented around a platform mindset, and the platform mindset needs to be customer-first mindset. So I think the positioning is more on the speeds, feeds, facts in statistics for a product and you need to be able to cover for a platform far broader, more kind of business impacts as opposed to speeds and feeds, the impacts of the business for each different frickin stakeholder. So you might have a COO. What is the COO measured on? COO is measured on efficiency, bottom line, right? Maybe it's a CRO typically measured on the top line. Might be a marketer measured on top of the funnel. So your messaging, the persona becomes much wider, which means you've got to be able to go much wider, which means you can't go quite as deep. No product team, I don't believe, is going to be an expert in any one thing. but they're going to be able to carry the narrative of the impact to the business, the business, the company, the sum of the parts. Yeah.

And does that mean a lot more verticalization so that your reps can get to know an industry and speak the language more?

I don't, I don't, I don't actually, I don't know the answer to that. I think the industry pendulum changes every 5 to 10 years. Companies swing back and forth between them, right? We're going to go all in on industry. Unless your product is hyper-specialized to an industry, I don't know that it makes a hell of a lot of sense to specialize by industry. I know Keith Block as an example. Maybe Keith's listening to this. He— when I was at Salesforce and it was not as long as the other companies, but it was about 2, 2.5 years. His whole thing was we will not build this IBU, the industry business units, until we have industry product. And I, and I believe it. I believe it. Typically, most of the industry or verticalized products that are sold out there and platforms are, are industry when the product like data models, I mean, as an example, the data model of CRM needs to be aligned around financial services to make it verticalized. You can't have a democratized data model and be relevant in an industry.

And so your team at Seismic is not verticalized today?

Then we are verticalized in FS and FS only because we do have the products. So we have a platform that is just for banking and it uses industry data models.

Okay.

That team, the way they book revenue, the way they bill it, it's different than my core business. It's because it's where we came from.

Yeah. And that was like 85% of the business back when.

And now— Now it's about 45% of the business. Yeah. Yep. Okay. Call it 50%.

Okay. Makes a lot of sense. Yeah, not verticalizing go-to-market until you have verticalized products is a really interesting mental model.

I don't know what others think about that. I would love to hear comments and feedback, um, from this podcast. Like, I'm a big believer in industry, big, big believer, because you can obviously have the, the messaging, the, the value proposition built to an industry But relevance doesn't really come until you've got industry-specific product.

Yeah. And I guess it might depend on how particular these markets are that you're selling to. I'm always very reticent to give like a hard rule of thumb for anything. I mean, any of these things are contextual. And I think one of the mistakes that I see both founders and revenue leaders, executives making a lot is over-indexing on a best practice. I jokingly call them high probability practices because it's okay, that's a good pattern and it could be applied, but the world changes so differently. Are the patterns that we've used to be successful in building companies and go-to-market still relevant in an AI world? Maybe, maybe not. Your market has changed, the business you're in might be a mid-market versus enterprise.

So yeah, yeah, it's— I love the industry debate because there is no wrong answer.

Yeah. So one of the other things that you've mentioned offhand is that you were selling into heads of enablement primarily, and now you're spending a lot of time with CROs. And so how do you get a team that's very different? That's a very different world to interact with. How do you get your team to make the transition to selling to like a completely new buyer, new conversations? What is that transformation like?

God, that's a great question. And it's hard. When I first joined here, Kyle, 95% of my calls were with heads of enablement or like frontline sales managers. Yeah, I mean, we did not have CROs, we did not have them on stage, we did not have CMOs on stage. It was largely enablement. The first, first thing you need to do to elevate and engage to the actual budget owners versus the person who finds out if they have budget is you need to be relevant around the impact to their business. Like you can't say your teams are— have 75% of your team has taken training. Yeah. Okay.

So what?

That's good for maybe the enablement leader, but so what? Yeah. What lift have I gotten in the productivity of my team? How much more revenue can I drive with fewer people because they're better trained? Those are the things that are relevant. So back to the business value metrics, you have to be relevant to them, and that means be impacting the metrics that matter to them. That's number 1. Number 2, it starts with also just the mindset, man. Like, the first customer event we had, I asked a a friend to come up on stage who's a CRO of a company that's a customer. But we really started this mindset shift of this is who we have to target. Once you've got the messaging, once you've got the relevance, once you've got the product that they care about, now you just got to go win them. And to be honest with you, Kyle, I did it through friends first. Went to people who I was closer to And it just builds confidence and it builds momentum. And when you're doing a press release with the CRO of one of the largest travel companies in the world, other CROs from other travel companies see it.

Yeah. Now you have guys like Bobby Morrison, CRO of Shopify, with that awesome quote that I saw on, on YouTube saying, we've got a lot of traction on that one.

So thank you, Bobby, if you're listening.

There you go. So it starts with the mindset, building confidence. It also sounds like the continuity across the business is really important. If you want to go after CROs and sales, marketing has to get CROs in their case studies and build content for them. And the messaging has to be much more aligned with business value than enablement value.

That's right.

So it's a sort of an enterprise-wide thing.

That's right. And you said something really important. I mentioned it before, marketing. I mean, all of our marketing collateral 2, 3 years was towards enablement and ops because enablement a lot of times reports up and ops. We now do all of our campaigns with different personas. So we have a CMO persona, we have an enablement persona, an ops persona. And the revenue CRO persona. So we hit the different channels with the messaging under each one of those. And back to industry, your industry marketing, if you want to do verticalize, imagine that complexity now. You're doing industry persona, you're doing industry messaging with a multi-persona messaging. It's tough. Yeah. So pick your poison and do one of them well.

And how do you even get, how do you even get onto the calendars of CROs? Like, well, that, that must have been like a completely new muscle for people. And you're laughing, so I'm glad I asked the question.

I'll give you another vulnerable moment. When, when we made this pivot, Kyle, I remember it was 2 years ago. I had this grand idea like, we got to build the momentum around CROs. Let's do a CRO roundtable event in New York, London, and San Francisco. Guess how many I got at each one of them? I canceled two and did one of them and had three people at it. They're the most impossible people to pin down. You're one. Dynamic calendars are always changing. They're booked 2 to 3 months out. You know, I'm part of McKinsey does a biannual twice a year CRO forum. Even McKinsey, the leader, the sponsor of that forum that they do at the end of every meeting is like, how do we get CROs to come? How do we get them to stay committed and not drop out? That's McKinsey. And they're at the start of each of these presenting proprietary material and research, it's freaking hard. But, and so, but if I can help you get the top 10% of your sellers' behaviors to go to the next 10% down, that's going to get me a seat at your table, right? If, if I can get your, your Jesse, who's your top seller, to now be Jesse, Sarah, and Bill, you know, you're going to, you're going to listen, you're going to pay.

And so what did you guys do on the marketing and demand side to build funnel? Is it, is this a bottoms-up motion where you're building momentum with VPs in sales enablement and rolling it up to a CRO? Have you had success starting CRO and going down? Like, what have been the successful tactics there?

I think the most successful tactic is relevance around the business impact, the revenue numbers. When it's hard-hitting, like I'm all for a challenger mindset going into a customer and telling them, you know, you're number 3 and you're going to fall farther behind if you don't do A, B, or C. I fully, fully support going in with that point of view. You know, fear of losing is a lot stronger than the desire to win.

Yeah.

Be provocative.

That is a good way to think about it. So you do a bunch of early-stage stuff. You're a Lightspeed advisor, you're a stage 2 LP. So you've seen a bunch of these patterns play out. What are the most common failure modes? So you've executed it successfully a couple times, but where are the places that this most frequently goes wrong?

I would say one of the most important things is work-life balance and burning out. Don't burn out. That's— so your point is failure of— let me make sure I'm hitting the point here. You say, where do people go wrong?

So So, what are the most common failure modes for companies that are trying to go on this platform journey? So, I've got, I'm launching my third product. I'm ready to do it. Like, where are the most common landmines that trip companies up?

Number one is you move too fast. You can't move too fast. You can't bring too much change. It's gotta be baby steps. Remember I talked about the first vulnerable moment about, you know, being able to get the prior successful folks to be successful again. I got a personal coach and he helped me out a lot with this concept that companies have a metabolic rate just like a human does. You can't go from being a couch potato and overweight and not able to do one single pushup to being a, you know, muscle man or muscle woman. You got to take it slow. That, that's a biggie for me is these things don't happen overnight. Incremental gains at the pace of the company's metabolic rate. That's first, second, and third piece of advice I would give. Second piece, make sure your product narrative, like the integration, the story, is good enough. I've seen so many companies and I've been in them where we have introduced a product that was product from the product team conceived and from the product team built and never validated with customers or like they just build them because they think they, they're good. That is a very common mistake. Vet them and test them. With customers before you take it to market, and it's gotta be good enough. If it's not, it will distract your sales team, it will distract your customers, and it will deteriorate your credibility with your core.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. This metabolic rate thing is such a fascinating one because patients not usually in the top virtues of a CRO. I think we're like an impatient bunch. And so, how do you figure out what that metabolic rate is? Like, how do you know what's too fast, what's too slow? I've frequently made the mistake of too fast. So, it's very personal advice I'm asking for.

How do you determine that pace? We do our employee survey twice a year. That's one way. I am a huge fan of one-on-ones down into the org. I got to where I'm at in life because of really strong mentors. So I make a point of not just mentoring, but doing skip levels. And I don't mean like one down or two down, but getting down into the org. The best source of information of progress of your team is going to come from your team. Voice of field, and number 2, have a structured, wrought way of measuring voice of customer, VOC. So VoF and VoC, we have that here. We use a third party, a partner, to capture VoF and VoC. That's all you need.

VoF is voice of field. You're saying? Yep.

Yep.

Okay.

So I do a lot of just talking to them, but there's also got to be a way to capture their feedback, like the chatter amongst each other that gets logged for feedback up to senior leadership and product team. And then the product side, voice of VOC, voice of customer, we feature that at our largest customer event every year. Our product guy will get up and talk about how many VOC enhancements we've made. It shows we're listening and we're building product to the specs and requirements of our customers. I think that's a powerful, very powerful message of we hear you and we're acting.

I'm curious on your take. So my sense on this is fast enough means a little bit of negative chatter, but not too much because people don't like change in general. And I believe my job is to be like a catalyst and a driver and a pusher to push people just beyond their level of comfort where I know that they can— I know they can handle it, but they probably don't know that they can handle it.

That's right.

How does that resonate with you?

Very, very much. Think about quotas, right? You ever met— a seller that, that said, oh, I love my quota, that's awesome, thanks, Kyle Norton. Yeah, you push them just hard enough to overachieve. I think it's a very similar approach with try changing, driving change behaviors. It's good to be uncomfortable. Get comfortable being uncomfortable. Yeah, so I'm with you on that.

All right, I only have time for one more of these questions before we get into the quick fire, even though I have a bunch more that I want to talk about. Um, what, what has changed the most in your approach? So you did this big transformation at Microsoft from SMB to enterprise, from a, from a laggard in the category to a, to one of the powerhouses, sub-a-billion to $6 billion. And now you're doing this at Seismic. All, everything points to the fact that from what I see and I talked to some customers, that this has been tremendously successful. What has, what has changed the most about your approach? What's the lesson you took from Microsoft and said, like, I'm definitely doing it differently this time?

Yeah, I'll give you the answer.

I—

another vulnerable moment. I'm like opening up here. I feel like maybe you're my My psychiatrist, I, I went for a big promo when I was at Microsoft and I wrote it up in my annual review, like, what does it take for me to become— it was CVP, corporate vice president.

Yeah.

And I won't name the guy, but my boss, quite senior there, told me, you are way too in the weeds in the field. You're just an uber seller. You're, you're very close to everyone and you know all the deals because you're in it. You're not at the operational acumen level. You're not driving enough change behavior, strategy behavior. You're very much in the, you know, there's a saying that my boss uses here. You can either work on the business or work in the business. Working in the business means day-to-day technical. Working on the business means always looking for improvements, driving improvements in the business, working on versus working in. What they were telling me was, you were working in the business too much. And I was doing it because I chose that. And I, and I use that as a reset and spent kind of extracting myself a little bit and became more of on the business here. When I first came out of—

you did become a corporate vice president. I'll put it on the record.

I did. Thank you for putting it on record. I finally did a year or two late. Two years. I think it was two years later. Here I did the opposite. I started on the business and wasn't enough in. And we are a culture of a lot of in-the-business company. And so therefore there was a little bit of Oregon rejection because I was, you know, in the pulpit, you know, not, not enough in the weeds. So for me, it's finding that balance of you're keeping the finger on the pulse by being a part of the, the engine, but also stepping back and removing yourself to see the forest from the trees.

Yeah.

And that's the biggest change that I've gone through in the last few years is becoming very aware of when I'm too much in the business or too much on and finding that balance.

Really interesting. Um, okay, let's move to a quick fire before we wrap. Um, in your mind, what separates a good CRO from a great one, like a truly exceptional enterprise value driver?

Um, fair. Being fair. Being, doing the right thing for others and for your customers, obviously. That's one. Number two, the other piece that I would say is be a leader of the people. A lot of CROs feel that it's, they've gotta be a different person and be maybe a little cranky or curmudgeon and harsh. This modern world doesn't like that shit. We've got a very young company here, a lot of 20-year-olds and early 30s. They don't— the days of a CRO yelling at you during a QBR doesn't work anymore. So the balance of authority and being, you know, a needle in people's sides and being a friend, a colleague, I think that's another important balance. And Look, man, I came from the era of public firings during QBRs, of berating during forecast calls. Leaders— I wrote a blog actually a couple of years ago, Kyle, and it was about leadership through inspiration and leadership through intimidation. I'm not saying either of those are the right way, but it was me decomposing my thoughts into those two and what it means. I'm a big believer in inspiration. Yeah, it's got a long-lasting effect on a team. That was anything but a lightning round answer. It's—

I call it quickfire, and it's never, it's never that. I should rebrand it.

It's—

and the data would tell you that that is the right way to do it, that the data would tell you that fostering that intrinsic motivation versus that top-down down extrinsic fear-based motivation doesn't work. It never has worked. We just didn't really know it and it's taken us a while to mature out of. And even if you try to be super nice to everybody, people are still going to be a little intimidated. I always find it funny that people tell me that.

That's true.

What's the most common piece of advice you find yourself giving to new senior revenue leaders, like a new VP of sales, a new CRO?

Kyle Norton. Have a bias for action. Do not put off till tomorrow what you could do today. You've got to move faster. Win fast, fail fast mindset. You know, you mentioned earlier dog years for us. That's why you need to move fast.

Yeah, that is a great one. One of my questions is the hardest lesson you've had to learn. I'm wondering if that's the, the Microsoft example, but any other hard lessons that we're sharing?

Actually, it would have been that Microsoft one. One of the hardest lessons I ever learned in a good way. I had the most cataclysmic deal fall apart during the global financial collapse in 2008.

I heard the story on Scott's Pod.

Yeah, it's So people can go listen to Scott's podcast to hear. But that— the reason why we won that was multilevel engagement everywhere within the customer and from within our own company. I was at IBM at the time. You know, people talk about C-suite selling, they talk about multilevel selling, they talk about multithreading. It's real. Whether it's a big deal or a small deal, it matters.

And for reference, this was not just a big deal, a billion-dollar deal. And you got it done with a company that was going bankrupt, basically slightly, slightly reconfigured. So, yeah, very cool.

Yeah. The company was one on Friday at the close of business. They were a standalone, very, very, very, very large bank. And then on Monday they were gone and subsumed by another company. September 14th, 2008. That was a Sunday. That's wild.

Yeah, go listen to the GTM podcast with Hayden. It's a great lesson.

Thank you.

Last question is, what's the best thing you've read in the last 12 months?

I am an eclectic reader. I read everything from nonfiction, historical nonfiction, to total crazy fiction. I'm going to give you two books. And they— both of these books moved me. One is called The Power of One by Bryce Courtney. Best, best book I've ever read.

Really? Oh, I love that. I love hearing that. Best book I've ever read.

Bryce Courtney. It's about a boy, young boy, a white boy, Afrikaans boy growing up in South Africa in the 1920s. 20s and 30s during the, the rise of apartheid. And it's him overcoming obstacle after obstacle after obstacle and winning. Um, anyone who feels like they're stuck or hung up, go read The Power of One by Bryce Courtney. Um, I read it a long time ago, but I read it about 6-8 months ago. The other one, I'm a big fan of espionage mystery sort of stuff. And it's a book nobody has probably ever heard of. The author has written this book, and it was 14 years later he wrote a follow-up. And the first one was a stud. It was a killer. It was called I Am Pilgrim. And I'm blanking on the name of the author. But if you type in I Am Pilgrim, it is the best CIA mystery. It's like so multithreaded and Terry Hayes. Yes, Terry Hayes. That's it. And you know what he did? He was the writer of the Mad Max movies and play scripts. The, the, the, what do you call them? Screenplays. Very cool. And then he did a bunch of movies, but it was his first book. Terry Hayes. Awesome.

Uh, Hayden, this was incredible. I, I had a suspicion this was going to be a good one. But I love that we could go deep on this stuff. I learned a ton on it and I really appreciate you spending the time. Appreciate it.

You're very welcome. I enjoyed going deep. Your questions are good ones, Kyle Norton. You're good at it.

Thank you. Appreciate it. And if people wanna follow up with you, best place, LinkedIn, anywhere else?

LinkedIn, yep. Hit me up on LinkedIn. And it takes me a few weeks to clear, you know, the personal stuff. But I will definitely get back to you. All right, cool.

Thank you for listening to the Revenue Leadership Podcast. If you enjoyed it, don't forget to subscribe and you can find a link in the show notes and be sure to leave a 5-star review. Share it with your network and please join me next Wednesday for another great conversation.