Why Success Never Feels Like Enough, and How Leaders Break Free From "The Lie of Scarcity"

You hit the number that was supposed to make you finally feel secure, but a year later you're chasing a new one. You've probably called that drive or ambition, but there's an old story underneath it about whether you'll ever have enough, and it was written long before you had any money at all. By the end of the show, you'll know where this story comes from and what a life built on something bigger than the number actually looks like. I'm Susan Drumm, and this is The Enlightened Executive, where your personal Evolution Sparks Your Leadership Evolution. Each week we spotlight frameworks and strategies to help executives and entrepreneurs grow in leadership and in life. Today we're going to look at your relationship with money as well as your bigger purpose in life, and I'm thrilled to feature not only one but two guests today. Lynne Twist is the founder of the Soul of Money Institute and author of the bestselling book The Soul of Money: Transforming Your Relationship with Money and Life. We'll also discuss her newest book, Living a Committed Life: Finding Freedom and Fulfillment in a Purpose Larger Than Yourself. Over the past 40 years, Lynne has worked with over 100,000 people in 50 countries. She has co-presented on stage with some of today's most influential leaders, including Oprah, Marianne Williamson, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, Jane Goodall, Van Jones, and Archbishop Desmond Tutu. Lynn has been featured as the speaker for the United Nations, the State of the World Forum, and is the recipient of the prestigious Woman of Distinction Award from the United Nations. Sarah Vetter is the CEO of The Soul of Money and is a coach, consultant, workshop leader, and keynote speaker. She's also a major gift fundraiser for the Pachamama Alliance. Sarah has also worked in advertising, marketing, and sales. She's been coaching and consulting and leading workshops with Lynn since 2001 and has become a key player in on all the initiatives of the institute. Lynn and Sarah, I'm truly honored to have you on the show.

Thank you. Thank you.

It's great to be here.

Wonderful to see you and wonderful to be on your show.

I'm really deeply honored. You've had such an extraordinary life for making global change on the planet. And I really feel like my short opening on both of you just doesn't come close to doing your bio justice. I've recently finished your second book. I've read both of them now. And the stories you tell are so profoundly powerful. But let's start first with The Soul of Money. What do you mean by that? Because a lot of people might be like, money? What do you mean, soul of money?

Well, it's a little bit of a trick title because money doesn't actually have a soul, but we do. And we can use money in a way that gives it the imprimatur of our soul rather than our greed or our avarice or our, desires or things that are kind of clawing at us. And the money relationship that most people have is one that is not ideal for them. In fact, there's a lot of suffering in people's relationship with money. It, you know, it seems like, well, that's with people who don't have enough. But even in the affluent world, there's tremendous suffering in people's relationship with money. Sarah and I are lucky enough to work with many, many different kinds of people from all over the economic spectrum. We teach fundraising, Often to people who are running nonprofits, or we call them social profits. We work with people who've suddenly come into an inheritance. We work with some of our global billionaire families where there's a contentious inheritance or somebody got cut out of a deal or somebody said something and now they're suing their brother or their mother. We see kind of all different faces of people's relationship with money. And most of them are troubled. Most of them are harsh. Most of them are somewhat wounded. And almost all of them are in some way dysfunctional. The Soul of Money message really comes from many, many years of fundraising. Both Sarah and I are fundraisers. We're philanthropists and fundraisers. You know, some people avoid fundraising like the plague. We love to ask people for money. You know, we're sort of rare in that way because we know that everybody really wants to move money towards the highest good. They're not that connected with that usually because they need this or they want that or they want that. But when we start looking at money differently, rather than really understanding that we have it rather than it has us, because we've become slaves to money really in our culture. It's become more important than human life to people. It's more important than the natural world to people. It's more important than God or spirit to people. And we all know that's actually a lie. No one really, really believes money's more important than human life. We behave as if it is, but we don't really believe that. We don't think money's more important than the air we breathe or the forests that take care of us or the water we drink. But we behave as if it is, and we will destroy the very light support system on which we depend for money. We become a slave to it, and we will deny some of our most ethical ideals and values to make a little bit more money or a lot more money. And kind of everybody's like that. It's not just the kind of the egregious characters, it's really everybody. And so we work with people and money in a way that it's a handle, it's an entry point, it's an aperture to work with people on their whole life. What is their life really about? And how can money be in service of that rather than be the point of the spear. You know, the title Soul of Money and the name of our institute, the Soul of Money Institute, is actually a way of having people really start to put soul and money in the same space because mostly they're really far apart.

Yeah, I love that.

That's really one way of talking about that title and what it means.

Yeah, absolutely. I've certainly seen a lot of dysfunction with the relationship with money in entrepreneurs when they keep thinking about, okay, if I just get to a certain amount of revenue, then I've made it. Or if I make it all the way to an IPO, then I've made it. And they get there and realize, hmm, I still don't feel great. And they just set the next goal thinking that it's going to somehow fill this need or fulfillment that they were hoping it would give. And all the way up to billionaire CEOs and their experience.

Yeah.

And how much it drives our sense of self, our self-worth, you know, what we have. So I'd love to maybe scratch the surface of that a bit and talk about a little bit more of what are the distinctions that people need to start to consider related to that relationship with money and some of the key messages from the book.

I invite Sarah to tell her story because everybody has a money story and it sort of usually explains why you feel hurt, wounded, wrong, bad, and dysfunctional in your relationship with money. And we usually get at people's money story early on in an encounter because we, you can see how they've turned money into a, either the goal of their life, the be-all end-all, or the pariah that cut them out of the deal. And so if I could ask Sarah to tell her money story, and then I can talk a little bit about how we get at the dysfunction.

Thank you, Lynn. My money story is I grew up in wealth, but very dysfunctional family in a sense that all the wealth came from my mother's side. All the power came from my mother's side. We tiptoed around her. We couldn't talk about it. It was an unspoken conversation, anything about money. So I just lived in like kind of fear about money and not really knowing, but then kind of learning as I grew up, oh, I think we have resource, I think we have money. But my dad was very disempowered by it, and it was all about the moneymaker, the where the money came from. And then everything was about how you looked on the outside. So it was all a superficial way in which you showed up. And so that was my whole upbringing. And that, you know, there were some obviously amazing, great things that as well. And then I married a man of great wealth, and he was one of the first Microsoft guys. We were living in a town called Atherton, California, in the Silicon Valley, chartering planes, hanging out with Warren Buffett and Bill and things like that. That was my life, and having all the best services and everything. Then that whole thing crashed. My doorway into purpose and the soul money and an organization that Lynell also talked about, Pachamama Alliance, was through complete breakdown where I just had lost myself completely. I was so not Enough. I lived in a space of never ever being enough. No matter how much money we had, no matter how many homes we had, no matter how many resources we had, no matter how many influential people that we knew, I always felt like it was never enough. Clamoring for more, clamoring to be prettier, clamoring to have nicer clothes, clamoring to have better, more important friends, clamoring to go to the next best this and that, but not being present. And had 3 small children and like that, I was not present for them. If I look back, I wasn't. I was so about my not enoughness and trying to grasp for it until it Completely broke down, completely crashed marriage, 3 young children, no clue what kind of— same thing in my marriage. I didn't know what we had. I just know we chartered planes. And that's when I hit that kind of deep, dark, low, low, low point in my life with depression, with numbing out, with suicidal thoughts, like with like, why am I even here? And that's when I met Lynne. That's when I got really attached to a guru just to like try to, try to dig into the inner purpose of life and my inner being. Like, can't be all about this because this can't last forever. And that's when I really was awakened to this message. And that's when I, when I read The Soul of Money, I really realized, oh my God, I lived majority of my life not ever feeling like enough. And I had everything in society. I had everything.

Mm-hmm.

And the more I had, the more I didn't feel like enough. So working with— we work with a lot of women, men too, but working with women who have it all on the outside but just have an empty, you know, not enoughness on the inside is really our message and really the work that we do. And it starts with that money story because I had to peel away at that money story. I had to peel away at that story about myself to really break through and realize, oh my God, I mean, I love my townhome. I have more than enough. I'm doing incredible work in the world. I work— we do work in the Amazon. We do, you know, all these things. So that's sort of my breakdown breakthrough.

Yeah, it's so fascinating because one of the things I'm hearing is how our relationship with money is actually a mirror to our relationship with ourselves. If we don't feel like we are enough, we actually translate that like it's almost money becomes the excuse to prove to us that we are not enough because we don't have enough of money. We don't have enough of this or that, when the real work is the relationship with ourselves. Do you find that, both of you, that like it's really healing the relationship with money is about healing the relationship with yourself?

Yes.

Oh yeah. I mean, 100%. I don't have enough is really I'm not enough. I mean, it always, if you peel it down, even like one layer.

And it's all embedded. One of the things that's kind of a relief for people to learn, and it was for Sarah— by the way, I wasn't the guru, it was Sadhguru. So when she put my name and the guru in the same sentence, I thought, oh no, it's not me, it's not me. But one of the things that is usually a relief for people that we work with is that we distinguish that the cultural set that we live in, the water we swim in, is the culture of scarcity. It's not easy to see it. It's like looking at your own eyeballs. You can't look at your own eyeballs. Eyeballs. But we live in a culture that promotes scarcity, that actually makes scarcity the kind of almost like the belief system that everybody falls into without even thinking. It's an unconscious, unexamined mindset that there's not enough to go around. Someone's always gonna be left out because there's not enough to go around and you have to make sure it's not you and yours. So you have to accumulate as much as you can to make sure that you and yours, whoever you say that is, are not left out. Since the belief is there's not enough to go around, And someone's gonna be left out. And so the goal, the job to be a responsible human being is to accumulate as much as you can to make sure, and maybe way, way, way more than you need to make sure that you and yours are not left out. And you'll help these people someday, but only when you have way more than you need. But then you can never really get there. And that mindset of there's not enough to go around, someone's always gonna be left out, dribbles into everything. There's not enough time. There's not enough sex. There's not enough money. There's not enough market share. There's not enough audience. There's not enough this, there's not enough that, there's not enough this, there's not enough that. And we live in a culture that promotes more of everything and anything all the time. You cannot buy something without the purveyor invites you to buy more of everything. And I know it's good marketing strategy and we all do it, but it promotes a mindset that you're not okay unless you get more. And then once you get that more, you're not okay unless you get the next more. You know, it sounds so Kind of simple. Can't we just stop thinking that? No, because we swim in it. We're fed it 24 hours a day, very effectively actually. Marketing and advertising people are some of the smartest people on earth. Algorithms are now smarter than they are and AI is smarter than the algorithm. So, you know, we are swimming in a sea of a belief there's not enough to go around and you have to get yours and you have to get more than you ever imagined. And even when you get more, that's not enough and you have to get more again. And so we have these, what we call the 3 toxic myths that are called what we call the lie of scarcity. And that's where we think all the suffering lives. And if you can realize it's in the culture and it's not you, then you can start addressing your life authentically. And the 3 toxic myths are: there's not enough, more is better, and that's just the way that it is. And these are 3 very unconscious, unexamined belief systems that really run not just the economy, but everything. They're built into education, they're built into politics, it's even built into religion. So to stand outside of that and take a look and see yourself whole and complete and sufficient is really hard. So that people don't do that, it's not so much their fault as they think. So we distinguish the cultural set from the human being, and right there, that's a big step. And then we deal with people's money story, because the money story always explains or justifies your behavior. But the money story is just a story, and you can change it. Yeah, facts can be the same, but the story can be completely transformed. Sarah's example, she had a difficult relationship with her mother, but she has now completely transformed that. Her mother's no longer here, but she has this adoration and just absolute gratitude for her mother now. Same mother, same circumstances, but now she is in a space of love and gratitude for her mother when before she was in resentment and abandonment. And those are conversations and they are malleable. That's some of what we do. And I'm trying to answer your question as best I can.

Yeah.

Kind of a little mini seminar there.

That is fantastic. And, you know, I just recently was part of a seminar looking at the ways we deal with our nervous system and stress. And it all has to do with the stories that we're telling ourselves, and that those stories can be changed.

Absolutely.

And people think, like, that's the way it is. So that was one of the ones you mentioned. But if you're experiencing stress, if you're experiencing anxiety, it's about the story you're telling yourself about what's happening to you or around you or about you. And you have the power to change that story. And that's exactly all the work that they're doing in healing nervous system work is about helping people change that story. And the same in our relationship with money. So I think it's incredibly powerful.

Yeah, it's like rescripting your life. And one of the things that we say that's, you know, so obvious— it's another way of saying what you just said— we say that, you know, people don't really live in their lives, they don't really live in their relationships, they don't really live in their jobs or even in the world. They live in the conversation they have about their They live in the conversation they have about their relationship. They live in the conversation they have about their job. They live in the conversation they have about the world. And you may not be able to change the world or your job or your relationship the way you think, or your life, but you have absolute omnipotence over the conversation you have about your life or your job or your marriage or the world. And that's where the levers and dials of power really are. That's where you can find a script, a story with the same facts exactly that de-stress you, That have you realize you have exactly what you need, where you feel in sacred relationship with money rather than you have to have more all the time. I mean, it's probably what you teach every single day. It's probably what every one of your podcasts is about in some way of speaking about it. We're just speaking about it in our particular way. But that is, we think, the levers and dials of transformation.

Yeah, really powerful. And I was also thinking about how powerful the second book was that you wrote around Living a committed life. Because in a way, that, that what I see is like, that's the antidote. The antidote to being sucked into this world of scarcity, which is all around you, is declaring a stand that you're going to take for something and how you live a committed life. So perhaps you can share a little bit more about that, and then we'll lead into the commitments that you both have made and what that looks like in the world.

Well, we, we, like you, we coach people. People ask us for their counsel, our counsel, And often when, when they're dealing with a snarl or a breakdown or they're stuck, what's really going on is they don't have a big enough purpose. They don't have a big enough vision for themselves. And if you zoom out and really take a look at their life, it's literally too small. It's too petty. We strongly recommend that people actually live into a commitment that's larger than their own life starring them, that they find a purpose That is, it doesn't have to be end world hunger like it was the one that really saved my life, but it can be be the best kindergarten teacher that has ever taught children in Cleveland and have every single one of these little ones, these five and six-year-olds, feel seen, feel appreciated, feel adored, feel cherished before they leave your classroom, so that when they look back on the people that really made them feel. that they knew who they were, it was their kindergarten teacher. So it doesn't need to be, you know, save the Amazon, end world hunger, stop violence against women, although I recommend all of those. That's what we're working on. It needs to be something bigger than your own life starring you to pull you through the difficult things because you'll start to see that the concerns that you have are really pretty petty. And when you have a big purpose, you don't have time to worry about, you know, is your hair too short or too long is the next person thinner or fatter than you are? Does this man, is he advancing his career faster than you are? You don't have time to be so absorbed and obsessed with your own ego.

Yeah.

And you turn your life over to something larger than yourself. So we love working with people to see if they can discover really what do they stand for? Why were they born? Who are they? What are they really about? And people love that conversation. And, you know, I'm sure that's some of the work that you do. It's really what people are hungry for right now, particularly when the world is such a mess. We need to look at something bigger than the next election, than the stress that comes with reading the, reading the news. And so that's what we recommend. And that's how we work.

Yeah. Powerful. From this idea that get committed to a meaningful mission outside yourself. That's often what I say, like, 'cause otherwise you're stuck with like navel-gazing, you know, like just, you know, and it's sort of like, get out of yourself. And what is something that you care about in the world that you're wanting to take a stand for, because that's leadership. People want to follow you having a passion for something that's not about you. It's not great leadership of like, you're gonna make me look good, right? And so like, that's not inspiring leadership.

Right.

So you've gotta find out what that is for you. And if you think about leaders in organizations right now, what really matters about the work you're doing? How do you translate that to the rest of your— what difference are you making in the world? When you ignite that level of passion, you'll get other people beside you doing that. And not just though, the question is not just within your work, but what are you doing outside your work too?

Yeah, right, really. And it also almost always leads people, even some of our most powerful men that we work with, and probably some that you work with, to some really deep spiritual questions. And maybe they don't want to use spiritual terms, But really, what is your soul's mission? Why did you get born now? What is it that you're gonna leave? What difference are you gonna make with your life? I'm sure you're tracking because I can tell that's what you do too.

Yeah. Well, Sarah, I'm curious to lean into that.

Yeah. I was just gonna say that before whatever you lean into next, but also finding your purpose, finding your vision, finding your mission. Sometimes it can come from a complete breakdown or a total accident. It's just you become in a space, either you've kind of given up or you're like, ugh, you're, you're at a place where you just don't know what way to go. And then you stay open, you stay open in your life, you know, you approach life differently. And sometimes that purpose, that vision, that mission appears. And if you're open and you're listening to life, then you lean towards it, which is kind of what happened to Lynn and then kind of what happened to me around the organizations that we support. Yes.

And so how did you come— coming full circle from your story, how did you come to defining what your meaningful mission Yeah.

So like I said, I met Lynne at an event that I was hosting, and at that event she invited me to a fundraiser for the organization she co-founded, the Pachamama Alliance, which she'll say more about. So I thought, oh, she seems like a cool lady. All right, this is me being open, like, okay, this is like way out of my comfort zone, and like, I don't really know what Pachamama Alliance is, but I'll go to this thing because this lady seems kind of cool. And I'm just trying to, you know, change up my life and figure out where to go from here.

So I go to this event.

And what do you think? So I go to the event, small home fundraiser. I give some money because again, I'm still in the space of I don't even know how much money I have, but the lady next to me wrote a check, so I wrote the same amount of check. I was like, okay, I think, I think I'm well off. I'll write that check. And then Lynn's like, oh my gosh, we just connected. And she invited me to the Amazon rainforest. So here I am trying to like eat, love, pray my way into figuring out— I'm doing yoga, meditating, gonna go meet this lady, talk about Pachamama Give some money. She invites me to the Amazon rainforest. I'm like, oh my God! So thought, well, I gotta switch it up here. I know nothing about the Amazon. I drive a Range Rover. I live in a big house. Like I'm not—that's just not my jam. Like I don't know. But this seems like a cool way for me to step out of my comfort zone and be in a place where nobody knew me and I didn't know them. So I went to the Amazon rainforest. That changed my life. And then I just locked in. Oh my God! I want to be a part of this. This is the next— I need to wake people up. I need to wake myself up first, wake people up to what's going on on our planet. And it gave me that purpose. It gave me that vision. It gave me that mission. It gave me that drive because I have a lot of drive. It gave me that drive to want to make a difference, not only for my own life, but for— I wanted to touch the people that I already had in my life. That's— I came about it a little bit accidentally and also, okay, let's give this a whirl. And off I went. And that's That was 17 years ago, and here I am. Wow.

Amazing. Amazing. Well, tell us more about the Pachamama Alliance because you're hitting a major milestone, I believe 30 years. Tell our listeners a little bit more about what that is and the mission.

Well, the word Pachamama is a Quechua word, and the Quechua language is the largest indigenous language spoken in the world today. And the Quechua people, to them, the word Pachamama means the Earth, the sky, the universe, and all time. A shorter definition is Mother Earth. Indigenous people have a much larger understanding of reality because they live primarily in the spirit world. So they would say it's the earth, the sky, the universe, and all time. But we say Mother Earth. Okay, so Pachamama Alliance is an alliance between the indigenous people of a certain region of the Amazon called the Sacred Headwaters of the Amazon Rainforest and conscious, committed people like you and your listeners. All that alliance is in service of the sustainability of life itself. We have the great privilege of working with the indigenous people who live in the sacred headwaters arena or area of the Amazon rainforest, which is right at the base of the Andes where the rainforest begins. The Amazon rainforest is larger than the United States. It straddles 9 countries. It goes all the way across the continent from the west side to the east side and empties out into the Atlantic Ocean from the Pacific side. It's a giant Giant, giant ecosystem. The river is so big, the river system is so big that if you go out into the Atlantic Ocean 150 miles, the water is still fresh from the Amazon River. So the Amazon River begins in the Andes, which are mostly volcanic, the eastern side of the Andes. And volcanic activity creates— and they're snow-capped— creates very, very dynamic water. And so the waters that come out of the Andes that form those These rivers forged, you know, millions of years ago or thousands of years ago, the whole Amazon rainforest, which is the largest ecosystem on Earth. It's the largest water source on Earth. The Amazon River is bigger than the next 6 river systems combined. And the mist that comes up in the morning from the Amazon rainforest, from the trees— a mature tree emits 1,000 liters of water every morning in mist. So the flying rivers have as much water in them as the river does every single day. And that's the source of our climate system.

Wow.

We didn't know any of this when we went to the Amazon, but we were invited by the Achuar people to visit them. And they wanted modern world friends to help them protect their area, which is right at the heart of the sacred headwaters. So we've been working with the Achuar for 30 years. And also it expanded to the Shiwiar, the Zapara, the Waorani, the Andoans, the Shipibo, we work now with 30 Indigenous nations, they're nations, in Ecuador and Peru, a little bit in Colombia, to preserve the sacred headwaters of the Amazon rainforest. And in so doing, the Indigenous people have told us, even from our very first encounters, that yes, they're trying to keep out oil and mining and rubber tapping and logging and all the ways that the forest can be destroyed. But they said to us at the very, very beginning of our encounter with them, it's not just those industries. The real source of the destruction of the Amazon and of our ecosystems that we depend on depend on is the dream of the modern world. Go home and change the dream of the modern world. Well, that was a tall order.

Yeah.

But the Pachamama Alliance did in fact take that on. So for 30 years, we've been working with the indigenous peoples of the Amazon to protect their land and culture, not only for themselves, but for the future of life and the sacred headwaters of the Amazon, which has remained almost completely untouched and pristine, which is millions, 88 million acres. It's huge. And we've been at work, as you have, In technically changing the dream of the modern world, the dream and the trance really of consumption, of acquisition, of more of everything, to living in profound sufficiency and gratitude with what we have and making a difference with what we have rather than trying to always get more. And that doesn't mean we don't think people should make more money. It doesn't mean we don't think people should have nice things. It means that there's a state of being in reverence and relationship relationship with the natural world and with ourselves that we all really— that's what we really crave. So the Pachamama Alliance and the Soul of Money Institute are very related in really working with our cultural kind of soullessness. And so we work in the Amazon and it keeps us very grounded. And we're with these amazing indigenous tribes who have a lot to teach us. We have a lot to teach them too. They're not perfect. And then we work all over the world to change the dream of the modern world from of human supremacy and dominance to human responsibility and sacred reciprocity with the Earth, each other, and the community of life. So that's the Pachamama Alliance, and we invite all, all the people listening to join us.

What an incredibly big mission and inspiring one. Thank you for sharing that detail and how that all came about. If you had to ask or make a recommendation or suggestion for leaders and entrepreneurs out there, what's an action that they might take from their position, right? focused on their business, growing their business, growing their department, launching a product, whatever it may be. I'm hoping that this is the start of some wake-up call to get grounded in a deeper mission. But what's one action they might take this week that could move towards this idea of sufficiency, but also a mission bigger than yourself?

I have a couple ideas, and I'm sure Sarah has some too. One of the principles of sufficiency, which is a word that describes not an amount But a state of being, a state of being in communion with yourself and the gift of life. One of the principles of sufficiency is to realize that what you appreciate appreciates. So I would invite them to appreciate their employees, to appreciate whoever it is that they work with, and to express their appreciation and to make it a practice today and maybe this week and maybe forever to express their appreciation and their gratitude as frequently as they possibly can without being corny, but Mean accurate, precise. For example, I deeply appreciate that you are at work with using music to transform people's relationship with themselves in life. Well, I just want to appreciate that. I feel really touched by that, and I can't wait to get your book. And appreciations are specific like that. That's a practice. And then another practice is gratefulness, which is different than appreciation. I appreciate— just demonstrating— and I appreciate that you do this work with music. What I'm grateful for is that you had the listening and the open-heartedness to read both of my books before you did this interview. I not only appreciate that, but I'm very, very grateful for that. And I wanna thank you for that. So appreciation and gratitude, 2 vectors of having a sufficient, fulfilling life. Those are my recommendations. How about you, Sarah?

Those are the ones I was gonna say. I would just say a little bit about that in that we at the Soul Winning Institute, it's a very tiny, mighty organization, a company, And every meeting that we're in, we end with appreciations, every single meeting. We also look at, gosh, what have we accomplished this week? So we don't just jam into our agenda and we gotta meet these numbers and we need to enroll this and we need to get this, this and this and this and all the things that you just can— I have lists that have lists. You know, I love lists. But over the years, I mean, you know, we start sometimes with a meditation, opening sacred space. Yes, but then really what let's acknowledge what we've accomplished. Let's have our meeting. Then at the end, let's appreciate each person specifically in your meeting or some job that's been done or something that's done or something that's been accomplished. And that kind of gratitude and appreciation—it's like a muscle. If you do that every single day and then you expand that out into your life, I appreciate my adorable little tiny kitchen. You know, it's like I love my little patio. I love walking out there in the morning. Like, but really. Appreciate the things that aren't about accumulating, aren't about money. It's appreciating the things already in your life where you are enough. Um, so it just kind of emphasizing what Lynne says. Those really are ways to change the story. Yeah. Shift the narrative.

It's almost like you, you can't be in both at once. You know, you can't be like, oh, I, we need more of this and appreciating something at the same time. You can't. Yeah. Yeah. And so it, it's a switch in which, which path are you choosing? So thank you. Thank you for that. And thank you for Acknowledgment, Lynn. That was so beautiful. And thanks for the example that you just set with appreciation and gratitude. I wish we had more time and I could talk to you forever. Where can people find out more about your work and also how they might start to make some important shifts that you're committed to making in the world?

With Pachamama Alliance, you know, depending on when this actually airs, we have a very significant event in New York City on November 10th, and it's free.

October 10th.

Oh, I'm sorry. October 10th. Oh my God. Okay. I did that the other day too. I gotta get that in my head. October 10th. So I don't know if this is airing before that. I hope so.

Yeah, I think it should be. Yeah.

And it's a free event, so you don't have to— you can host a table for free. You know, it's not one of these things where you have to pay $100 a plate. No, you'll even get lunch. And we will make an invitation to contribute, but no one has to. And it'll be a very impressive event with our Indigenous partners. So that's one thing. We also have on the Soul of Money website, if you join us, you'll get notices of our online programs. You'll also get something called Wednesday Wisdom, which we put out every month, which has kind of little gems in it. And also you'll be notified when we do a fundraising training, which some people usually want to learn a little bit about fundraising in their life somewhere. Somebody always has to fundraise about something. And then we have Soul of Money workshops. And then the Pachamama Alliance is relaunching itself in September of this year. So we will have a whole bunch of new programs. And that's pachamama.org. We have a, what we call an Initiatory Crucible program. We have something called Earth's Listening Circles. We have something called the Climate Action Training. And we have trips to the rainforest, which are very, very special. There's one taking place in November. Maybe that's what I was trying to get at. November. November 7th to the 19th has maybe 10 spaces left. There are so many ways to participate with us, and we hope everybody chooses to do so. Yes.

And Soul Money is soulmoney.org. So soulmoney.org, pachamama.org are both ways you can tap into all the amazing things that we're up to. Awesome.

You are up to a lot. So I'm looking forward to getting more connected with you both. Thank you so much for being on the show today. And if you love this episode, you're not going to want to miss my episode with Candace Mama, who also talks about the power of forgiveness. I'm not sure if you know Candace, but you talked a lot in your book about forgiveness, and it was very powerful, and I thought of her too. Oh, great.

Candace Mama? Yes, yes. Like the name.

From South Africa. Wonderful. Okay, well, let's all lead the way. Hope you enjoyed today's episode, and I'd like to point you to the next important step Hit the subscribe button and the bell to get notified when we release new content. I'll see you on the next episode of The Enlightened Executive.