Your Business Behaviour Determines Your Outcomes | Ep. 12

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Beyond Business Podcast. My name is Charles Mackay. Today I had the absolute pleasure of interviewing Simon Fletcher from Leading Teams. Leading Teams is all about behaviors. If any of you are fans of the afl, you'll know that or you may have heard of leading teams. Leading Teams is used throughout the AFL and lots of organisations within the AFL and they're now starting to stem out into more, you know, the business aspect as opposed to just, you know, elite sport. Reality is businesses are a group of people and teams coming together and what Leading Teams does and what we talk about today with Simon is all about those behaviors that you need to build and still within your organization, whether it be you have a set of values, but then what are the behaviors to those values that each team team wants to have and represent? It's fascinating how we talk through it and without going into the detail of Simon's career and background. Simon was an elite AFL footballer and then started working with Leading teams within juvenile detention centres to now working with AFL clubs and performing businesses today. So. So it's a fascinating story about how your business's behaviors become pretty much your outcomes. But without further ado, I'm going to hand over to Simon and myself and a surprise guest appearance of one of Simon's clients and one of our joint clients, actually, of how they've been able to use their behaviors and values as a business to guide them through the current Covid environment. Simon Fletcher, what a pleasure it is to have you on, mate. So tell me, in these current environments, where are you sitting and where would you normally be sitting on a Friday morning?

Probably a bit like you, Charles, to be honest. I've built an office out in the backyard, so. Funny. The backdrop behind me is curtains now, but I remember the first video call I did, I didn't have the curtains there. And speaking to an executive team and one of the guys looked at me, said, are you in your garage? I was like, well, I sort of am. So changed the backdrop a bit. So no Friday morning for me could be anywhere doing anything, could be in the office or it could be working with any given team, I guess. So Our business leading teams, we have a philosophy of that we think we can help the performance of any given team. So variety of different clients all around. All around the country.

Awesome. Awesome. So let's rewind a little bit and tell us a little bit about yourself, Simon, and what got you into business initially and we'll go through sort of what has got you to where you're at today. So what got you started in business?

Well, basically my journey, I guess to where I am today started through afl. So I was an AFL footballer for nine years. During that period of time I started working for leading teams. The business back then was a bit different. It was mainly geared around developing athletes off field. So we became facilitators for the business, running programs in juvenile jails, at risk youth and schools and things like that. Finished my footy career and went overseas and traveled for a couple of years and got back and thought, what am I going to do now? Re engaged with the two directors at leading teams and fortunately, right place, right time, they had an opportunity for me. So I started doing some corporate work at that point in time, again facilitating the leading teams model, focusing on culture and leadership and basically did that for a couple of years. And then I moved up to the Gold coast where I worked with the Gold Coast Suns for six years. And then four years ago they asked leading teams invited me to come back and which I did. So that's sort of been the journey of how I've got to where I am today.

That's really cool. I want to unpack this a little bit. I'm really interested in what you were doing with those like the juvenile, you know, the jails and what you saw and what you learned out of that experience. I think that'll be fascinating.

Oh no, it was an eye opening experience. But I guess the thing that we were trying to instill into the kids is the understanding of actions and consequences. You know, clearly they're aware of those, but it's also about the ability to change. You know, we've got a real belief that anyone has the opportunity to change at any given time, but it's going to come back to the level of motivation that you have to do so. And so, you know, we used to work with the kids around basically trying to change the direction in which they were going in and setting themselves goals essentially, you know, where do I want to be in five years time, you know, and for me to be able to get to that, to that point, what do I need to do starting today that will allow me to get to that point and really breaking things down for them. But the other bit I guess that we focus on is the empowerment piece. You know, we believe that if people play a role in their own growth and development, then they're more likely to engage in that process rather than being directed by someone else. So yeah, it was a great experience. There's some kids that have clearly made some choices along there throughout their lives that had got them to that point. But when you get to know them on a deeper level, you can sometimes get a bit of an understanding of why they've got to, where they've got to. And unfortunately, sometimes it has to do with their upbringing, the environment they're in, you know, which realistically is a. It's the same when we talk about culture of a team. You know, the culture is created by the group of people that. That are. That are in that team. So the culture for those kids was sometimes to, you know, fight, steal and do all those sorts of things because. Because that's the way that they were. They were brought up.

I've had something that, you know, thought about for a long time is, you know, I'm sure they exist and programs of people that are coming out of jail or coming out of a bad situation because there's so much energy. I feel that these guys, kids, adults, you know, mums, dads, like, so many different demographics, but so much energy they have if they just worked out how to channel it in the right way. I think there's so much work that can be done there. And I think, you know, removing some, I suppose, probably political rules and the way jails are run and all that sort of stuff. But I think there's just a lot of energy that can be channeled in a better direction. And I reckon you would have seen some fascinating things. Have you reconnected with anyone from that period that have seen where they're at?

Unfortunately, no. I remember we did have one. This is back when I was playing at Carlton. We had. We actually had one of the kids, one of the boys come out.

His.

You know, they get time out to, you know, to be able to go out and do some work and stuff like that. We actually got one of the boys down to the footy club and he was. He was, you know, kicking balls back when we're having shots at goals and things like that. And, you know, his was. His was a. Was a shattering story. He was. He was right into his basketball and, you know, passionate about basketball cards and all those sort of things. And. And he actually broke into a florist and the owner of the florist come in, she was a lady, and she walked in and saw him and he ended up stabbing her. And he laid on the. Once he'd done it, he sort of knew what he'd done and basically sat there and held her and was like, I can't. You know, what have I done? What have I done? And the lady Just kept. The police were coming and the lady just kept telling him, just leave, just go, just go. And as he was leaving, he threw the knife and it ended up landing on the roof and ended up finding him. And he ended up in the juvenile jail. And it was just, again, it was probably something that was very unlike him and a mistake that he'd made and obviously he had to pay for his consequences. But he was a really nice kid. He was a really gentle, quiet, shy kid. And that was good opportunity for us to be able to build a relationship with him and then get him down to the footy club for a period of time there. I know Glenn Manton, who I played with, he actually ended up going down that path and starting a group called White lion down in Melbourne that basically focused on kids in juvenile jails and again, I think geared around athletes being able to support them on the transition out and things like that.

It's fascinating. There's so many things we could talk about this particular topic, but. And even as you know, me personally, I was obsessed with sport and had that passion and then transitioning from realizing I couldn't do that as a profession into what am I going to do? And I was a bit of a larrikin and I didn't do much work at school. So how do you channel that? And I think your story is fascinating that you've picked up a. Some sort of program when you are doing your, you know, your passion and then you flipped and worked out, you got a new passion which has led you into this journey that you're on. So I think that, I think that is really cool. So flipping into. As you've gone from leading teams and into in house organizations, has the problem really changed that you've been trying to address when you've been working with these businesses, teams, people like what. What is the core thing that you're at the end of the day you're trying to solve for that those organizations?

Well, I guess we really just focus at the end of the day on the performance of the team, the beauty about our work. And as I said earlier, we've got a belief that we can help any given team. Which was the title of the first book that Ray MacLean wrote, who's one of our founding directors. People, at the end of the day, no matter what you do, are people. And so we work with sports teams. I work with truck drivers, I work with prison guards, I work with school kids. I work with executives of large businesses. So any group of people coming together to try and achieve an Outcome, we believe that we can have an impact on their performance. And what we focus on is what we call the dynamics of a team. So, you know, culture, behavior, relationships. And once you've got a strength in relationships and got clarity around expectations, behaviorally, what we then get teams doing is having conversations about performance. And because of the environment that we've been able to create of trust and respect, as I said before, of clarity of what those behavioural expectations are, then we've got everyone aligned and on the same page, then we can actually start to have better conversations which link to better outcomes mechanically. So if we've got a greater group of people that are invested in the performance of a team, feeling engaged and empowered to play a role. There's an old saying, there's no one in the room that's smarter than everyone in the room. So the more important and more engagement we have, the better outcomes we're going to get. So, you know, you look at from the dynamics, you start to really impact the mechanics. So the KPIs, the technical skills, the operating processes are impacted significantly dependent on the type of culture that you have. So the two need to work hand in hand. And what you find in some organizations is they invest a lot of time and effort into the mechanics, but not so much into the dynamics. And so what we do is we go in and get teams to understand the impact of the dynamic space, spend time on that and then as I said before the link, then back to the mechanical aspect of the team. So whether that be in a sports team, again you have that focus on culture and behaviour as well as focusing on skills, you know, and being better at the technical skills. And with the balance of those two, what we see is that there's an increase or an improvement in performance.

What have you seen? As you know, the methodology has evolved and businesses have also evolved. Like there are, don't get me wrong, there are businesses that are still stuck in the stone ages, but probably being found out, especially in this current environment. But what have you seen been the biggest thing of change and evolve in not maybe your program, but also how businesses are starting to do things? Is it like, is there a particular, is it empathy or is it eq where people are actually going, you know what, I need to care a bit more than just the outcome. And what have you seen in that?

No, I think, I just think now people understand the importance of relationships within, within an organization. You know, again there's. But some people still don't. So it's, it's just, it's allowing people or giving people the opportunity to spend time on those relationships. And then what you, what you hope with anything is that people see value in it. So they think, well, why wouldn't I do it more? I did, I did a leadership program with some emerging leaders in a call center going back three or four years ago. And one of the guys in the group was, his nickname was the Tin man because he just had no emotion and his belief on leadership or management was that you couldn't have relationships with your team. And so our methodology challenges that. And he was a great young guy, he was really enthusiastic. And we, we'd do a session and it was almost like I just couldn't wait to get out and have a go at something that he'd learned in the session. And so one of the things that he implemented in his team was tea with Dean. So every morning tea for a month, he would have a one on one morning tea with a different person in his team. And he come back a month later and he said, the performance in my team's gone out of sight. And so he'd implemented something, he got value from it. And so it was almost like, I want to do more of it. And that's again, that's the, that's the whole premise of improvement of performance, whether that be individually or in a team, that you do something, you commit to it, you get, you go in and you act on it, you review it and you find out that it's actually, you know, we're getting good outcomes from it. So that gives the affirmation and belief to keep going. The challenge is that sometimes there's a lag time between the, you know, the change that you make and the, whether it be on the scoreboard or in the, on the bottom line. But that's when you know, if you truly believe in the direction that you're going that it'll be, it'll turn, you know, and again we focus, you know, try to get teams focusing on the behavior. I read a great book a couple of years ago and the title's Chop Wood, Carry Water. Falling Love, Falling in Love with the Process of Becoming Great tells the story of a, of a young samurai. A young guy wants to be a samurai archer and it takes seven years to be a samurai archer. And he goes and he, you know, he's got his sensei and he's learning all the skills and you know, how to do it. And it's not just about drawing the bow back. And there's also, you know, the things the mindset and all those type of things. And it talks about, you know, he draws the bow back and the targets 200 yards away. What's the critical thing he needs to focus on what's happening with his arms and his hands or the target 200 yards away. And the fact that if he moves his elbow by a couple of centimeters, that can mean meters at the other end. And so the focus for us is again, okay, so what are the behavioral expectations? What's the process we've got to do behaviourally that will lead to us getting better outcomes at the end of the day?

I couldn't agree with you more. The small incremental changes and feedback loop, the quicker you make that too, the quicker that the actual outcome will come. But I think a lot of people focus too hard on that outcome without the learnings and growth through those changes. And the other piece that I found that comes from that is maybe the outcome will change a bit because of your learnings. And that's also exciting because you start to see what is possible versus your limiting beliefs you once had.

Well, it's funny, I've been working with the Brisbane Lions for a few years and there was a game two years ago, I think, where the scoreboard shut down. So no one knew how long the game had been going for and no one knew what the score was. And the Lions actually played probably the best 15, 20 minutes they've ever played. Because again, unfortunately what happens and it's in sport is you keep looking at the scoreboard.

Yeah.

And what we're trying to drum into the players is we're going to take that out of the equation, focus in on the process, you know, that we do, you know, and the scoreboard will take care of itself. And that's no different in business. Like we'll always talk about the fact that data should drive dialogue. So the scoreboard will enable us to almost go back and look at why the scoreboard is in the shape it's in. But that should enable us to have conversations and no different in the corporate space. Our profit loss statement is the end point, but that's almost the scoreboard. So if we work backwards from there, what are the things that are going on that are driving that outcome and they're the things that we need to address.

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. We have similar thing where you've got a leading and lag indicator of your potential scoreboard. But what. And this is, I suppose, why we're talking today. One of the biggest pieces is getting that behavioral Change in a sales and marketing team. So if you're going through a huge change management process and you're getting challenged of the way that you've always worked, you need a scoreboard in place, but it becomes the behaviors. If you don't get the behaviors, then the rowing boat's gonna just go into complete, completely different direction. So can you tell us about some examples of where things have gone potentially horribly wrong, but then how that business has gone, oh, this is a good thing that we've learned this now. Or some cases where maybe a business had a set of values or had a purpose and it wasn't aligned with what they were really doing and it turned into a disaster. Have you got any stories like that you can check?

Yeah, there's lots. I think the thing that what you realize is most organizations these days will have a set of values or expectations, but not many actually use them. You know, they're almost used as a marketing tool. I remember sitting in the office of an owner of a business one day and we're talking about our work, and I looked over his shoulder and he had one of the values written on the wall. And it said, we value people and teamwork. And I said to him, oh, that's a great value. How much time a week or a month would you spend on that? And he just shook his head and sort of said, oh, that's why we're talking to you. And so the challenge is that as a new person, I come into that environment and be inducted, and I'm told that we value people and teamwork. And then I go out and I'm working there and I'm waiting to be engaged or I'm waiting to feel valued in some way, shape or form. And that doesn't happen. That's. That's when the misalignment occurs and people start to get a bit despondent. You know, I had another. Another client that had. I remember starting with them and I said, have you got any values and behaviors? And they said, yep. And they emailed it to me and it was. It was 10 slides. There was 10 values, and under each value would have had 10 behaviors. And the first session I did with the leadership team, I said, can you tell me any of your values or behaviors? And they couldn't. And so if you've got them, how are you using them? And do they actually mean something to you? And that's the thing, particularly around the corporate values that a lot of organizations have, is they're used essentially as a marketing tool. We value the Customer and that type of thing. And so I guess what we're trying to get them to do is you can be working with a team and the team creates their own set of values. Now, very rarely would they conflict with the company values, but it just gives them some more ownership of the way that they're going to operate as a team again, when things go bad. I remember an owner of a business engaged me. He said, I need my leaders to step up, need them to give me feedback. You know, he was, he knew that he needed to change as a leader. He was, he was a bit of a probably an autocratic type leader. Again, owned the business, so his house is on the line and so he wanted things done the way that he wanted them done. And we were doing some work and we're talking about feedback. And he said, yep, I need feedback. I got his leadership team to give feedback to him and he responded horrendously. He got defensive, started attacking people in the room. There was tears, people walked out. And when I got them back in the room again, I said to the group, what's the likelihood of you ever giving him feedback again? I said, no chance. But to his credit, what he did was he walked into the office the next day, he put his hand up and he said, guys, I've made a huge mistake and I'm sorry. And what you're going to see from me is a change in my behavior. So what he said and the way he acted weren't aligned.

Yeah.

And so the next month he tried really, really hard. And I went back in a month later and did a review with that leadership team. And I said, what have you seen over the last month? And they said, it's a different person.

Wow.

And so he was able to regain the trust of his team really quickly through his actions, not through what he said. And that's what we judge people on, their actions. The poet Emerson once said, your actions speak so loudly in my ears, I can't hear a word you're saying. Again, our belief is we want people to behave the right way. You know, leaders first and foremost model the right behavior. You know, you don't have to be the longest serving person to be a leader. You can actually not be a leader and be the longest serving person and you can be the newest member and be the best leader. But again, what we're trying to do is create clarity around what those expectations are behaviourally.

I can, I suppose, talking about football a little bit the one. And he's talked about it. Damien Hardwick from Richmond how he let go. Like, he, you know, I don't know him personally and I've seen him talk, but, you know, he obviously was some form of controlling leader as such. And he's just gone, you know what? I'm gonna let go. And that as well is empowering. It's. As a business owner, it's also scary because you're like, I've got to let go. But that's empowering too, for your team.

So, yes, I agree there, mate. One of the things when the COVID period started was, and I wrote this question down, so I've been asking a few of my clients, everyone's saying, oh, leaders need to step up under pressure. What does stepping up under adversity look like in your eyes? And for some leaders, that is taking control. I've got to do it all. I've got to be the one that's, you know, but what you need is you. Again, the Damien Hardwick example, you engage your staff, you know, you empower them. And again, you. It's not. It's not a free for all. And that's what I think. Some people fear empowerment because, you know, they think it's every person doing, you know, whatever they like for themselves. But our belief is that empowerment is, you know, when you've got people with high level of trust, you know, you know that they've got the capacity, they've got the skills to perform the task, you know, they've got a high level of character that they can. That you trust them enough to do the right thing by you and the team. That's when empowerment kicks in. And leadership should be situational, you know, like, there's lots of leaders, you know, often ask leader, when I start working with what. How would you describe your leadership style? And if they've got one style, I challenge them. Because your leadership style should be dictated by the situation and the person, not the way that you want to be, you know, but again, and it's very, very common in high pressure environments, of which AFL is one, that under pressure, the coach says, I need to do more. Whereas what we would espouse and what we try and do is say, well, can we engage the playing group in stepping up and doing more? Because. And I think if you look back to where leading teams began and the model began, if you look at sport particularly, the coach doesn't get to go out on the field with the players. So they're empowered when they're playing. They have to be, because you can't be telling them what to do. So how can a group of people that have been told what to do every minute of every day during the week, all of a sudden be in a position where they need to make decisions for themselves? So our belief is, let's empower them during the week and engage them during the week, not just tell them what they have to do, Guide them, coach them and support them and give them the belief that in the moment, under pressure on the field, that they can make the right decision.

Yeah, it's fascinating. I totally agree with you. I'm reading, actually a book at the minute called Humankind, and I'm just getting into it, and it's about crisis management and how human actual instinct is. And if you imagine a scenario, you're going, you know, a plane crash, and that'd be horrific. But there's two ways, two things that could happen. One, you could go, simon, are you okay? Can I help you out of the plane? Or two, just run and bolt and try and get out and run over anyone to get in the road. And it's actually seems to be scientific fact that humankind will say, simon, I want to say that you're okay. What gets publicized is that I want to run out and I'll run over anyone.

Absolutely.

It's funny.

I had a coffee with a client two weeks ago, and we're talking about this exact thing, and there's an article written that he sent me as, you know, Lord of the Flies, which is based on that premise that it's, I'll look after me and we'll savage each other. And there was a story of seven or eight Tongan or Samoan kids that, you know, went out in a boat and got marooned on an island. And they did the exact opposite. You know, they worked together, they supported each other. They still had disagreements, but when they had disagreements rather than fighting, they actually separated, went away and thought about, you know, what the. What the problem was, came back in and talked it through and were able to resolve the issue. So, yeah, and that's. And that's been the really common theme about this whole period is the adversity's brought us together. And so the opportunity and challenge is going to be how do we maintain it? So people are working remotely. Again, this goes back to the same as the footy example I was giving before. So the leader can't be with their team all day, every day. They're at home, they're working on their own. So do we trust them enough to get the job done? So we've been forced to empower and delegate. So at the end of this process, do we go back to the way that we've always done things, or do we do things a bit differently?

100%. And that's been my lesson of this period is a lot of the rules that came in in the industrial age are gone. Like, if you're running a business like that today, you're in a lot of trouble. And it's going to be fascinating who can let go going forward like you come out of it, but who's going to try and go back to do things the old way and do things the way they once did. This leads into nice. Into the next sort of thing. So one of the themes of our podcast is, you know, we're all in business, we've got purposes generally behind us, ideally. But what's something that you guys are doing to try and make the business world or the sporting world a better place that, you know, you can go home at night and sleep and say, I've done something that's going to help someone sort of outside of the core. What's in your marketing collateral and what's on your website. But, you know, deep down, what are you internally doing that you know that you're leaving the place in a better place?

Yeah, well, I guess that's our purpose. So the reason that we exist as an organization is to help teams and individuals improve their performance. And so when Covid started or this period started that, I guess our philosophy and belief was, how can we do that during this period knowing that financially people are struggling? So we've just found opportunities to be able to help people and groups. And I guess the one thing that it's opened our eyes up to, we've always probably been a bit reticent to use video conferencing to do our work. We believe face to face is better, and I still believe it is, but we couldn't. And I think we've now using this medium, and it's having some really good outcomes. So what I did was I went to one of my clients, Bendigo bank, here on the Gold coast, and said, why don't we get a group of leaders that are linked to your bank and we'll run a leadership program with them. So I had time. I believe I've got a skill set that can actually help. And I wasn't in a position where I was using it all that much. So we got nine leaders together. And so we're catching up for a couple of hours every fortnight on Zoom and talking through leadership challenges. The issues that they're currently facing and essentially creating a bit of a network where they can support each other. Again, going back to what I said earlier about their leaders of teams, so the mechanics that they do might be different, but in terms of the people aspect, they're all facing similar challenges. Again, currently doing a similar program with a group of different sports science people. You know, I've got people in from afl, nrl, Rugby union, rugby Sevens, mma, you know, sports science people. And again, we're coming together every fortnight and again focusing on them as leaders, but also creating a network where they can actually help and support each other through a challenging period. So I guess our belief was we can still live our purpose. And again, it's a good example of your purpose. We don't exist to make money, we exist to help. And so we went back into that and I think what it'll do for us at the end of the day, it'll hold us in good stead for the future.

100%. Yeah. The relationships you build in these times and the help that you're giving people, that stuff lasts for a long time. Time. And I think that's awesome as well, what you guys are doing. The one thing that I've probably learned throughout my career is you just never know when you're going to run into someone down the track.

Yeah, absolutely.

And you just never, never burn a bridge. You just never know when. And you know, I have an internal thing where it's like seed and grow. So you plant the seed. That seed could take three or four years to actually become a seed or become a little plant. And when it's ready, ready to grow, sprout. Yeah. So, you know, the more you can help someone, you. When their time is right, they'll sprout their way up and be like, right, let's. Excuse me, let's have a conversation. So if you were to get a group of young leaders in a room, you know, let's say 20 young leaders from all sorts of walks of life, what would a very logical, simple tip be that you would give that group of people that getting started on this journey, what would that example be that you would share?

Yeah, I think reflection is critical and thinking about where you would like to get to. So with all of our work, we would always encourage people, whether that be a team or an individual, to start with the end in mind. And when thinking about that endpoint, then saying, okay, so what do I need to address now to ensure that I can be that person or we can be that team that we would like to be and really honest reflection, you know, like again, there's our subconscious drives, our conscious behavior. So it's. And it can be a bit uncomfortable when you're. When you're really dig to those depths of, you know, where are we right now? Or where am I right now? And what do I need to address to get to where I want to get to? But if you can do that in a really honest and genuine way, then you can start to address them. But until you're willing to get to that point, the next step, I think, is then getting some feedback off other people and find out what they see and being open to that feedback, you know, and seeing that feedback as a. As an opportunity, not as criticism. And then you get to see if what you believe about yourself and what others believe is the same or different. And again, there's no right and wrong. If they see it the same as you, that's fine, and if they see it differently to you, that's fine as well. But then you start to really analyze again, go back, reflect, and start to look at, well, what do I need to change? What can I address? How can I start to create an action plan that will enable me to get to where I want to get to?

Yeah, yeah. And that's nice and logical and makes a lot of sense. And one thing that, you know, it's nothing I've invented here, but looking past that one year, even to three to five years in longer than that, because you know, what you can achieve in that distance versus the one is 10x. If you've got too short of thinking in mind, it's going to be a real struggle.

So I think again, it's also, you know, what are the first steps I've got to take? You know, so if I'm starting at a certain point and I know where I want to get to, it can look like it's a long way away and it can feel like it's a long way away. So that's where you start to again, put those, those little action plans so that the behavioral steps. What am I going to commit to? I listened to a good podcast on this topic, and the guy spoke about, you know, making your bed every day. You know, could that be the start of you becoming the person that you want? You know, and you get to the end of that first month and you think, I've made my bed every single day this month. I'm on the path to getting where I want to get to. You know, like, I. I've worked with teams I remember one in particular asked them, how would you describe this team right now? And they said, dishonest, distrustful, and toxic. And I applauded them because they'd made a choice that they didn't want to be that anymore, because if they. If they didn't, they wouldn't have said it. And so when you write that up on the whiteboard and they look at it, they go, oh, gee, yeah, you know, and then. Then you dig a bit deeper to say, okay, so what are the behaviors that we're accepting or condoning that are counterproductive to our performance? And again, you address those, and the fact that we've spoken about them becomes real. You know, it's like in that environment, everyone knew what was going on, but no one ever spoke about it. But again, when it goes up on the whiteboard and you're reading it and you're saying it and it becomes, you know, there's a. It's real.

It's totally real.

Yeah. And then the next step is to go, well, are we going to keep accepting it, or are we going to address it? You know, and the beauty of that, that exercise, is that everyone gets to look at that board, and you look at it and you go, well, I'm either doing it. I know someone else that's doing it, or, you know, I'm blissfully unaware that it's going on. But now we know, and clearly we've identified them as counterproductive, so we know that they're not helping us, so let's not do them anymore.

Yeah. Yeah, that's. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. It's just, I think one thing that people would find, and it's probably come up more than you've seen. There's a lot more than me. But that just very confronting experience of having people say things that you just don't want to hear. And you shared that story before about when that guy just cracked it, and you could see how that would happen so much. But I think we're going to a world, too, that people are much more acceptance. Acceptance of that, and they need more emotional intelligence on themselves as well.

I think, again, it's the. It's your mindset, you know, some. And there's some good literature around growth and fixed mindsets. And a growth mindset is one of possibility, you know, one of improvement. They see feedback as an opportunity, not as criticism. Whereas the fixed mindset is the person. This is me. This is the way I've always been. This is the way I will always be. I Can't change and I won't change. And they say feedback as criticism. It was funny in that same group where the owner didn't respond greatly to his feedback. I had another member of that leadership team about to get feedback and I walked in and I said, how are you feeling? You know, she was, she was doing a self assessment that the team were, you know, going through the feedback that they were going to give her. And she said, I can't wait to find out how they think I can get better.

Wow. Yeah, that's cool.

And so no matter what they said it was going to like, the feedback can be a gift if we view it that way. And it's a genuine opportunity.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So, Diane, I'm just going to switch gears a little bit here where I'm going to. I would normally ask you one of your best success stories, but I thought in the true nature of what you do with leading teams, it'd be nice to actually get one of your clients on the call as well. So, Tim Peterson, welcome to the room. So, Simon, handing back to you, tell us about, you know, something that you've been proud of or something you can boast here. You can get as transparent as you want. And then Tim, I suppose your feedback as well, how Simon and the leading teams guys have helped your business in the current environment.

Yeah, so I met Tim, I think it was late last year and started working with them early in this year. And I think they're just a great example of an organization or a business that has stayed true to their. Their purpose. Their purpose, as I recall it, is that they exist to provide quality maintenance solutions and make the lives of themselves, their partners and their people better. And I remember talking to Tim really early on in the COVID period and, you know, talking to him about how they were going to handle the situation. And basically their leadership team had made the decision that they were going to push on. They weren't going to go into shutdown. And the reason was because of their purpose. And that to me was a. That's why you have a purpose, because it should guide your decision making. And I remember Tim saying to me that, you know, people in their organization rely on them to put food on the table. So for them to make their people's lives better, they need to push on and work really hard as a leadership group to be able to ensure the survival of, you know, and bring in enough work that people could keep their jobs. And so to me, it was just a, it was a really proud moment. And I remember And Tim also said that the leaders had decided to take a pay cut to ensure that, you know, they could keep the people on and do all those sort of things. So that was a significant highlight for me. And I guess what I remember saying to Tim, well, if that's the way you're going to go, I'd like to do some more work with you and not charge you any more money. Because I felt as though I was so inspired by what they were doing that if I could help in any way, shape or form, I wanted to be able to have the same mindset that they did.

I think that is fascinating. And Tim, I'll let you talk about, I suppose, what then, decisions that made you as a business do and how that drove changes that you made.

Yeah, sure thing. Thanks for the invite in, Chuck. As you know, I'm a keen listener to your podcast, so I'm glad I can be on one. This is awesome. Yeah. So to get back to Simon, when Covid hit, we sort of. We sort of didn't really know which way to go. And Simon rang up and said, you know, how's everything going and what are you going to do? And said, I don't really know, to be honest. We sort of. We're weighing up whether we should, you know, look at Jobkeeper or we should shut down or persevere. And he just said, you know, in times like this, in crisis, you should. You should get back to your purpose. And, you know, your purpose is that you want to improve the lives of people that you. That partner with you and work with you. And now's a really good opportunity to live that purpose. So we got together with a hookup with Simon, with our leadership team. We discussed it, what improving people's lives would look like, you know, what we could do to help others. And it's also clients as well that we were able to, by stay trading and increasing our levels of service, clients could count on us. Whereas other contractors, they were taking annual leave or, you know, people losing their jobs and, you know, they weren't as dependable. So it turned out to be a really good, positive decision for us that we reduced margins. We worked on bare minimum with the sole purpose of just to keep people employed as long as we possibly could. And we, you know, we managed to get through the shutdown period. No one had a day off work. And now we're sort of, you know, post shutdown, going back into the relaxation period where we're actually really busy, we're booked right out, and we're at the point now we'll be employing people and growing. So, you know, I guess by relying on that purpose and understanding what it means to us and just focusing on that, it's actually helped us not survive but actually thrive. So that's been really good.

Another a good example too, Charles, was the link between that purpose and the mechanics as well. So in that conversation we'd had, we were talking about, you know, these guys doing work in, you know, retirement homes and things like that. And so the guys actually came up with initiative, a mechanical initiative that they would have all those Covid checks in place. And so, you know, when they were, you know, whether it be quoting for a job or something, that they'd actually have a Covid checklist of, you know, who's. These guys have had flu shots and all that sort of stuff. So again, it made the lives of their clients easier because rather than having to chase all that stuff up, it was, it was there for them. And so it just made them, you know, it was more efficient and made their lives easier as much as it did, you know, helped him get, get some work potentially.

It's awesome. And removing friction and bond and, you know, the fear and everything else that's going on, you're just like, it's like, how good is this? Someone that cares for me wants to get the job done and look after their people. It's pretty awesome. So I think it's a credit to both you, Simon, and you, Tim, to execute on it because that's, that's one of the biggest challenges with these things. It's all well and good to talk about it, but to then execute on it and you know, we're not, we're not through it yet, but it's still a work in progress, but well done.

It's easy when it's easy and it's hard when it's hard.

Totally. Totally. All right, Teble, thanks very much for joining us. That was cool to have a real life example of someone living to what a business has been doing for them. So thanks for joining us.

Pleasure. Thanks, Tim.

That was cool. Simon, thanks for, you know, I'm not going to say that that was my idea, so well done, Simon, on sharing that idea. But I think it's the true nature of that three sick or that feedback loop that you've talked about. You know, we've even done it when we did a session with you guys in Melbourne in a sort of a lunch and learn sort of situation, and we sat around the table at the end of the session and said, well, what did we learn from this? What could we do better? How did I present? How did you know the other presenter present? So. And you just get a nick it in the butt straight away. It's pretty powerful. So we better start bringing this to ground. Simon, how do people find you, get in contact with you? Yeah.

Yep. So we've got a website, LeadingTeams.net au which sort of outlines, gives a bit of information of what we do, who we are, that type of thing. So, yeah, and we've got an office team that, you know, if you've got interested and want to make some inquiries, then the phone numbers on that, on that website. So, look, at the end of the day, as I said before, like, we just. We're really passionate about what we do, you know, we view ourselves again, it's almost like, you know, you've become part of the team, you know, and it's been one of the joys, I guess. Again, of course, working with someone like Tim, you know, you see them buy into the work that you're doing and you see them get value from it, and that's what gives you the greatest buzz. Again, the work that I've done at the Brisbane Lions for the last four years since Chris Fagan's come in there, it's just been. It's been so such a joy to watch the transition, you know, in a. Realistically, a pretty short period of time, but not just seeing the group change as footballers, but as people. My daughter had heart surgery a couple of weeks ago, and the emerging leader group actually sent a box of toys and gifts to my daughter. I go into the Lions one day a week, you know, and. And again, I just thought, I wonder if these guys would have done this four years ago. But I just know that one of the things that Chris Fagan, the coach, is really passionate and strong on is relationships and really valuing people. And that, to me was a true gesture of connection and relationships. And I said to the guys, you don't know the impact that that had on me, you know, it was really, really significant. So, yeah, so I just, as I said, it's our philosophy is that, you know, we feel as though we can go in and really help a team and become, you know, part of the team, but also challenge the team, you know, and hold them. Hold them to account to what they said that they wanted to do. And I guess that's the beauty again, of our role, is we're facilitators, we're not trainers. So it's not like we go into a client and say, well, this is, you know, you must do this to be a high performing team. The team engage and make that decision, you know, and as I said, our role is to is to support them in reviewing them and finding ways to allow them to have the conversations that they need to have that will ultimately have a positive outcome for them.

Yeah, absolutely. And that reality is growth doesn't only comes from pain or from a challenge or, you know, you got it. And that's the thing that, you know, I hope as a business, business, as a society and as a planet, out of everything that's going on at the minute, we come out better. So, Simon, thank you very much. I really appreciate you coming on. And until next time, enjoy.

Thanks, Charles.