The Achieve Podcast - Jackson Pace (Refractional CFO)

Welcome to another episode of the Achieve Podcast, the show where we highlight leaders, creators, and entrepreneurs, those who are building meaningful businesses, shaping their industries, and having an impact. I'm Taylor Baker Baker, your host, and excited today to be joined by Jackson Pace, the founder at Refractional CFO, and you can find them at refractionalcfo.com. Jackson, thanks for joining us today.

Yeah, thank you, Taylor Baker Baker. Great to be on here and, and great to be part of the podcast today.

Oh, well, my pleasure. And for those getting to know you, give us the backstory real quick on how you got into this space and who you're serving, because it's a bit of a niche.

Yeah, it's a pretty unique niche. You don't hear a lot of CPAs kind of serving a single industry. So really my background, I, I started my career in public accounting, worked at a, a kind of a larger regional CPA firm. Got a lot of reps and tax and doing everything that you would expect a CPA to do. And kind of after that, really transitioned into— I got an opportunity to go work as a full-time CFO or chief financial officer for an ophthalmology group. And they were going through a lot of growth. They had just kind of purchased some, some retail opticals. They were opening their own ambulatory surgery center, which we call an ASC. So had a lot going on. I knew very little about the industry but decided it was kind of a cool challenge to take on. So I ended up joining them, working for them full time for several years. And really that's what led me to kind of understanding and exploring kind of the world of optometry and ophthalmology. And coming out of that, really just built a lot of really neat and unique relationships in the industry. And started understanding that doctors, they're busy, they don't have a lot of time, and they're not only doctors, but they're also small business owners. And so just kind of found this gap in the industry where there were no CPAs really serving them. And so decided to launch my firm, Refractional CFO. And so fast forward to today, we, we only work with optometric clients. We have probably the majority of them are optometry practices. We work with some ophthalmology practices, but Yeah, really what kind of landed me in the seat that I'm in today.

That's awesome. And how big is the team in the organization now?

Yeah, so the team, we've definitely grown. So we're, we're still fairly new as a firm. We're not even 4 years old, so we're about 3 and a half years old. But we've grown pretty quick, our team. We've got over 30 team members on the team. So yeah, definitely. And that's been a whole other learning curve is how do you grow a a business but also grow a team as well. And so it's been fun.

That's awesome. That's impressive. That is some serious growth, especially in that space. And what would you say is driving growth for you guys?

I would say, I think the, the off— the service that we offer is pretty unique, um, there. As far as I'm aware, I don't know that there's another firm out there that offers, you know, tax, bookkeeping, kind of practice management, financial advisory services for this industry. And, you know, if we were to look at, you know, the industry as a whole, you know, there's over probably well over 30,000, you know, call them eye doctors, you know, everybody, you know, probably at some point in their life has went to the eye doctor and got their eyes checked. And so, you know, kind of that experience that you had, there's probably over 30,000 of them out there and nobody is really serving them. And so that's where I feel like we got into the industry and we quickly learned that it's, you know, it's a pretty— how do I kind of explain it? It's just a small world in the industry. It's like you kind of learn a few people in there and then you start to just understand who everybody is. And so it's just been really easy for us to get our name out there. And I think we've been able to do a good job and serve our clients well and have been able to capture a lot of referrals from that.

That's awesome. And what would you say is working well to attract and retain good clients?

Yeah, so one, you got to be able to keep your current clients happy, you know, you got to be able to provide, you know, good service to them. And, you know, on day one of the firm, which, which again wasn't too long ago, it was like 3 and a half years ago, um, I was doing everything, you know. I was, I was their bookkeeper, I was their, their tax guy, I was their CPA, I was, I was everything, you know. I was the admin in the back end that was setting all the systems up and Um, and as we scaled that and kind of developed a team around me, um, I feel like that's kind of where we've really been able to excel, is having a really good team that serves our clients, and so that I can kind of come in in certain areas that really add a lot of value. And so, um, that's what we're trying to do every single day, is how can we, how can we, you know, help our clients succeed, help add value to, to their practice and their growth and kind of their livelihood and And if we do that, then, then they like that. So they're more likely to go and tell their friends that they're having a great experience. And, and I feel like that's really what's kind of driven that, that growth.

That's awesome. And when it comes to your sales and marketing systems, where do you feel like there's still opportunity or money on the table?

Yeah, so like right now, I mean, we don't, we don't actively do any like outreach per se. Like we're not doing like paid ads, we're not And I don't know, part of me is like, I don't know that we ever will. I'm sure there's a lot of opportunity there. You know, I talked to other CPA firm owners and some of them do. They have an active kind of business development team that's actively, you know, kind of running these marketing campaigns. They're seeing a lot of success from them. For us, it's one of those things where we don't want to grow, even though we have grown fast. It's like we don't want to grow too fast because, because at that point you can kind of lose focus on, on what you really started the firm for, which for us was just to, to serve our clients and, and help them out. And we never want the sole focus of everything we do to be just on growing the firm, you know. We want to focus on the clients, and we feel like if we do that, then everything else is just eventually going to kind of catch up with it.

So, gotcha. And so how many clients do you have now, and where do you want to be or see yourself in 12 to 18 months?

Good question. I, I, I never know how to answer this question because it's like, I, you know, if you would have asked me, you know, when I first started the firm, it's like, oh my heck, if we can get 10 clients, like, I'll just be the happiest guy in the world. Because at that point we had zero clients, you know. Then you get your first client, you get your second. And so I remember back in the day we called it our Road to 100. Like, if we just had 100 clients, we thought that was going to be amazing. And so So, you know, we started this Road to 100, and all of a sudden that came and gone, and then it was the Road to 200, 300. Now we're kind of knocking on almost 400 clients in the firm. And so, I, you know, to say where we're going to be in, you know, from, you know, 3 to 4 or 5 years from now, I mean, I don't know. Again, it's— I feel like as a team, we always want to put a goal around that. For me, I'm a little bit shy there because I, again, I never want you know, to maybe say, oh, we want to have 1,000 clients, and then that's really my, my sole focus. I— part of me is like, I just want to wake up in the morning, try and do the best job that I can serving our clients. And if that week we get 2 or 3 new clients, that's just kind of the cherry on top. But I, I've just never been the guy that's going to sit here and be like, you know what, as soon as I get 1,000 clients, or whatever the number is, like, then I'm going to be happy. It's like, no, like, I'm, I'm actually pretty darn happy, like, where I'm at with the firm now. And as we add clients, we'll add more team members, and we'll just— we'll kind of make it work as we go.

That's awesome.

Wow.

So when— with all the talk around AI and automation that's been happening, where have you guys found ways internally to utilize it?

That's probably where we've struggled. In fact, we're actually— we're actually this week, we are kind of actively working with some kind of consultants in the area. They understand AI probably a lot better than we do. But for us, it's just kind of the simple things. You know, we try and help it. So one of the things that we've had to deal with is the team has grown, is really kind of implement like standard operating procedures and really just systems and processes that can scale. For any one of our team members, if we had to sit down and write those out start to finish, like, it's nobody's favorite job. Um, but that's where we've been able to bring in AI tools to really help us not only write and draft those, but help us understand, like, is what we're thinking, you know, good or bad? Like, is this going to scale from, you know, 0 to 1,000 clients, or is it going to break at some point along the way? So I feel like we, we've definitely used AI more in kind of the internal operations, you know, of our practice. Obviously we're in bookkeeping, we're in tax. There's a lot of AI that's coming to help with that. It just hasn't quite got there yet. In fact, it was interesting. I read an article where I think it was OpenAI, they're hiring accountants. And it kind of like blows my mind a little bit. I'm like, oh my goodness, like, Here you have this company that is solving everybody's problems with AI, but yet they're still having to go out and hire accountants to come in and do the accounting for, for the business, you know. And so, um, so, so I don't know, it's definitely getting there. You know, we use a very popular software called QuickBooks. A lot of small businesses use that for their, for their bookkeeping. We feel like as far as having them as a vendor, they're, they're at the forefront of a lot of things with bookkeeping and different AI, but Um, yeah, definitely still things that, that we're trying to, to navigate. I'm sure as well as everybody else is probably listening to this is trying to figure out how do we navigate AI and, and make it work for our business as well.

Yep, very common. It's like, it's a wonderful tool, but how do I utilize it?

Exactly.

So Jackson, if you think about your business and the trajectory you're on, if you had to focus on one constraint for the next 90 days to to solve, what would it be?

Man, that's a good one. Um, I, I definitely feel like the, the one constraint would be me, and I feel like maybe every founder kind of gets to this point in, in their journey where, you know, for so long, you know, so many things have— it probably just had to filter 100% through them at some point. And, and as I look at my team, and this has been really kind of the silver lining and the real fun part of, of growing a firm and kind of seeing that growth is, you know, one, it's always— it's— we love working with our clients, but kind of the— these team members that have come into my life, just phenomenal. I mean, super bright, super educated, and, you know, kind of getting me into a position where it's like, you know, like everything doesn't have to filter through me, doesn't have to filter through my partner. Like, we have these really good team members that can really start to run the firm. And so that's, that's kind of actually where we're at. In fact, we had a leadership team meeting this morning, and, and we are— we're kind of internally, we're rolling out a new kind of, what do you call it, operating system for our firm, you know, as far as kind of how we structure things. And in AI, it did help me build all the cool pretty graphics that kind of explain it to our team members as far as, you know, how the organizational structure is going to work. But yeah, that's kind of actually one of the things that we are going to work on over the next 90 days is just kind of rolling out that new kind of firm structure.

That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. Just cleaning things up and organizing it.

Yeah.

So when you think about your own journey through this, you look at the wins, the mistakes. What lessons stand out to you?

There's, you know, oh my goodness, there's definitely, definitely a lot of lessons. I feel like every day you learn something new. I think probably specifically one of the biggest lessons that I've learned is kind of going back to that, that notion of, you know, as you grow and you scale, that I think that the earlier you can kind of lean into your team members to just give them kind of the autonomy to really run. And for me, I mean, we, we are really big on client relationships. I mean, any, any professional service firm, they work very closely with their clients. You know, it's not like we're a software company that, you know, clients are primarily interacting with the software. I mean, our clients are on a day-to-day basis, they're interacting with us. And so, you know, for me, it's really trying to— not necessarily, I don't want to take myself out of the picture, but for me, I was always very nervous. It's like, I'm going to have a client reach out, I'm going to introduce them to somebody else, and they're not going to like this person, and And they're going to be like, well, Jackson, why aren't— how come I'm not meeting with you and you're having me meet with this other person? So for me, that was a scary thing. And I feel like I waited way too long to eventually just kind of roll it out and say, hey, here, we've got some other great team members. My schedule's full. Let's have you meet with them. I was amazed. I mean, I had team members, or actually clients, reaching back out and saying, hey, I met with so-and-so on your team. Like, it was amazing. They answered all my questions. Like, So, um, so yeah, that's been one of kind of the, the big lessons that I've had to, had to learn.

So that, that's amazing. So what, what's worked for you to attract the right kind of people for your team?

I think, um, most of our team members have come via referral. Um, I mean, we've— at the very beginning, it's like you, you, you decide you need to hire somebody, so you put a job out on LinkedIn or you put a job out on Indeed and and those definitely serve a purpose. We always kind of struggle with that until we started really working kind of our internal networks and just reaching out, you know, talking to people that we know. Maybe they're not even in our same industry, but maybe they know somebody that's looking for a job. And I feel like that's where we've really had some wins, is just kind of making those connections that we wouldn't have otherwise. The other one that's been just— we have just absolutely loved it. We started taking interns from— so we're in southern Utah. We have Utah Tech University down here, and we went to— so they kind of approached us and said, hey, do you want to be involved in Career Night? We're like, absolutely, we'd love to be involved in Career Night because we need people and you guys have students. And so we went there, was kind of surprised there wasn't a lot of companies specifically in southern Utah. Just nobody was really taking interns. And we said, well, hey, well, We want like 4 interns. And so we had some interns come on and just blown away. I mean, I, I look at myself forever ago when I was going to college, like these kids are probably like 10 times as smart as I was. It's like, who isn't? Everything that they have as a student is just amazing, you know, plus really good professors. And so for us, you know, that's been something that's really helped us grow kind of our team as a firm is being able to take some interns make sure it's a good fit. And if it is a good fit, then it's like, yeah, now, now we kind of know, they know. And so we can really build kind of a great, uh, relationship kind of going forward after that internship. If, if, if we both feel like it's in the best interest of, of both parties.

I love that. I love that. That's, and that makes so much sense. You bring them in, you're teaching them, you're helping them with their education, their credits that they need. And if the chemistry is right, and it's a good cohesive agreement with the team, then they have a job right out of school.

Absolutely. Yep. Yep.

So, wow, I love that. So last question for you, Jackson. When you think about the next stages of the business, what are you most excited about?

Um, I think the most excited, um, oh, do I gotta just pick one?

You can give a couple.

I would say, and this might be kind of a unique one, um, there's definitely a lot that I'm excited to about for our clients, you know, services that we're probably going to be rolling out that I feel like could really benefit them. Um, but I don't know if I'd say that's what I'm most excited about. I, I feel like probably what I'm most excited about is, you know, since we've been able to grow the firm and get a team, it's probably really watching these team members grow in really watching them now continue to build the firm. You know, I feel like, you know, especially the founder, I'm sure other founders that are probably listening to us, a lot of times the growth kind of lands on their back and it's like, oh my goodness, how do we carry this thing? And it just gets heavier and heavier till all of a sudden it's like, okay, wait, we've got this great team. They can start to grow it. And I think just seeing like even in the kind of the short life of Refractional CFO, you know, seeing some of those team members come on and seeing them, you know, even over a— the trajectory of a year, kind of the growth that they've gone through, I feel like for me that's been super rewarding. Um, so, so yeah, I'm super excited to just kind of see not where I necessarily take the firm, but where they take the firm here over kind of the, the next few years of its life.

That's awesome. I love that. And for those who want to learn more, who want to reach out, they go to LinkedIn, but RefractionalCFO.com, anywhere else you want to send them?

Yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best. I'm— I usually try to be pretty active on there, so, you know, reach out, send me a message on there. I usually try to reply to all those. If you want to learn more, our website, RefractionalCFO.com, great resource. If you're just kind of curious to see, well, what in the world is Jackson doing? We kind of lay it out on there as well.

So that's awesome. Thank you for coming on and sharing your wisdom, your insight, and the growth path, what's been working to grow that fast. Like, that's phenomenal. So thank you, Jackson.

Yeah, thank you, thank you, Taylor. It's been great.

Absolutely. And thank you to our sponsors of today's episode, Achieve Fractional, which provides fractional executive leadership for growing businesses. And if you enjoy the episode, share it with a friend, with a colleague. If you're not sure with your business and, and you're in the I space, reach out to Jackson. Or if you're wanting to get into fractional CFO work, reach out, see if it's a good team, if it's a good collaborative. And so we'll see you in the next episode of the Achieve Podcast.