Career Switching and Job Search 101 w/Account Manager, Jordyn Wallace

All right, we got that. We got this, we got this, we gotta do this. And I'm gonna make an announcement in the Discord.

Lovely.

All right, sweet. Cool. All right. Good morning, y'all. No one's here yet, but good morning. Hey, good morning. Excited for this episode, a little hump day episode. Uh, I really wish GEICO didn't move away from the hump day. We need to bring that back. Um, but excited for this. Y'all say hey, we'd love to hear from you. Excited to hang with Jordan. Uh, you know, it's, it's fun to, uh, I'm excited to start bringing on some Ronstadt people. Um, and so Jordan's kind of my first Victim slash guest, and so excited to have her on. And it's gonna be fun conversation today. I think Jordan is gonna bring you know I always love chatting. I I I so I obviously my this this live stream podcast is you know it's like I said yesterday on my live with Angie Jones is kind of the soft skills podcast of the technical industry. Right? You know, it's just, you know, hard skills, soft skills, right? Hard skills, technical skills.

This is the soft skills. Yeah.

But I always really love talking with recruiters on this as well and just people in the staffing industry because at the end of the day, I think both think a little differently, right? So yesterday's conversation with Angie, we talked about how AI kind of affects hiring and, you know, we talked about it from, you know, a VP level from an engineering perspective. But I really truly feel like you kind of get a different type of insight talking with other people in the recruiting industry, especially the agency side. So excited to have Jordan on today. So please say hey, would love to hear from you again. I always tell people this, this show started out 5 years ago as, you know, for me to bring on guests. But what I've really realized over the last year, year and a half is this thing is really more of a networking platform.

Yeah.

To where people can, you know, hop on for 30 minutes, say hey, connect with other people in the chat, connect with my guests. I mean, it's like I've told people, like, my whole goal is I want you to network off the back of me, which is really kind of my whole thesis for kind of building community at Torque is, you know, I've spent 13 years in the industry and know a lot of people, and it's— and, and I want to give you access to those people. Um, and so, you know, uh, I always tell folks, if you connect With every single guest that I've had on my show for 5 years and everybody who's been in the chat, your network will be expansive. And I would put my network up against anybody's in terms of just what it could mean for your career. So again, for those of you tuning in right now, please say hey. We don't know if you're watching unless you say hey, right? We're not in the metaverse yet. Even though Guidance Council 2.0 in the metaverse would be pretty sick, but we're not there yet, so I can't see you. So the only way to know if you're watching is to comment. So please comment and let us know you're tuning in. Always love to know where people are tuned into. So if you want to throw up your location, we'd love that as well. We got some people tuned in this morning already. So want to give obviously kind of the traditional housekeeping things. First and foremost, shout out to Appwrite. I'm on the Appwrite Heroes program. I'm probably the only non-technical hero on a technical program, heroes program. So check them out. Backend as a service type of technology. If you want to spin up an app pretty quickly, highly recommend checking out Appwrite. Also too, I'm going to drop the discount code in the Torque Discord today. I have credits for if you want to spin up an app using Appwrite. I have free credits. Um, and that's only available to Torque members in the Discord, so please jump in there. Uh, also too, speaking of the Discord, we got a lot going on, and, and Jordan can attest to this. Jordan is very active. We, we love Jordan's, uh, presence in the Discord, but we got a lot going on. Uh, we, you know, I had to send in some numbers. We pro— we have about 5 to 7 streams a week. Um, just everything going on with our team. So if you're looking to get involved and want to meet some people You know, hop onto lives like this, like Jason's, like Brianna's, like Jimena's. You know, we'd love to have you, but go get involved. Torque.community kind of lays out everything. If you want to get texted when I go live specifically, text me. This is my number. It goes to me. It's not some AI bot. It's actually me. I would love to have you part of the texting community. And then like I said, if you want to jump in the Discord, please do that. So yeah, let's see. We got some people in the chat now. Daniel, it's good to see you. Chris. Ange, it's great to see you. Angelo, not Los, by the way. Usually you call me— I've called Angelos Angelos for as long as I've been working here, so about 8 months, and he just corrected me in Amsterdam and says it's Angelo.

So Angelo, that long, man.

Yeah, so Angelo, it's good to see you, man. Also great profile picture. Um, uh, Sally, it's good to see you. Jeff, it's good to see you. Um, Erica, here we go. LinkedIn user, it's good to see you. I don't know who you are, but it's good to see you. Glad you're here. Jordan, Sebastian, Um, I need to connect with the guests today. Yes, you do. Roxy, our girl, is here. It's good to see you, Roxy. Chris, um, there we go. Shout out Jordan for getting that. Yeah, absolutely. Um, that will be wild. We got to come up. If you are willing to get a Torque gear as a tattoo, uh, uh, you, you can have unlimited swag. There, I said it.

Sign me up.

Brianna will get mad at me for saying that, uh, publicly. Um, uh, let's see here. Uh, again, Chris, it's good to see you this morning. Um, Tex for the win, I love it. Uh, Mazin, my guy from Durham, it's good to see you, brother. Already missing Durham and the cold brew from the Durham Hotel. Elite cold brew in Durham, um, at the Durham Hotel. Ricardo, it's good to see you. Um, I am down for a Twerk tattoo. Hey, listen.

Oh my God, this is great. Okay, we need to— we need to start like—

Yeah, making a thing. That would be insane. You talking about a community?

Yeah.

Who's willing to get your logo on them permanently, that is some next-level dedication. And honestly, that's my goal. That's my goal. I think that's my new thesis, to create a community so strong where you get a tattoo.

Well, there's another word for that, you know.

Cult as well. We won't go there. Uh, let's see here. Preparing myself for feeling like Taylor constantly saying my name in this episode. I love it. Um, uh, Brian, it's good to see you figured this out. Good, Brian. I'm glad you figured it out. I'm good. I'm good. It's good to see you. All right. So, yeah, sent me there. Yes. Roxy took part of that cold brew. I'm taking this coffee worldwide now. Yeah, 100%. It's that good. It's that good. All right. So enough of me yapping. Jordan, let's give the people what they want. Who are you? What do you do at Ronstadt?

And we'll go from there. So I'm Jordan. I'm an account manager at Ronstadt. I work primarily in the tech and telecom engineering space. So my clients are in the telecom arena, but I support them from different angles here in the US and then overseas as well. So primarily in Eastern Europe.

I love it. And you've been here for how long?

5— a little 5 and a half years almost. Yeah, we'll round up. It's like something 5.4 or something like that.

That's a long time. That's a long time here, you know.

I always talk about the staffing industry for like to be at the same place, you know.

Correct.

Usually—

and again, I mean, I'll give a shout out to Ronstadt. I mean, again, I'm still getting indoctrinated in Ronstadt. And I would say, I think one of the things I've seen is that people tend to be here for longer than kind of the average, which is a good sign for Ronstadt. And I always tell people, I would always work with an agency recruiter who has been at a company really for more than 2 years.

Yeah.

I think that's kind of the unlock there. So I do wanna start here. And so we're gonna kind of go over a slew of topics here, pretty quickly. Um, the first thing is, I do— I, I, Jordan, I want you to break down kind of agency versus internal, right? I think a lot of people still don't understand, um, the type of recruiters that are out there. So can you break that down?

Yeah, so I guess I'll just split it directly down, you know, one versus the other. Yeah, if you're working at a corporate, like a large corporation, and you're an internal recruiter, you're recruiting strictly for that organization, whatever department that they specifically assign you to, right? Um, so when you reach out to candidates, anyone on the job market, you're reaching out specifically to them for that opportunity. Now, when you work with, or someone that's in the agency side, you have access to hopefully thousands of clients, right? Depending on the agency that you work for. So as an agency recruiter, you have your, your net is casted you know, casts much wider. Um, you have the opportunity to get a lot more jobs, to work in a lot of different areas, to work in a lot of different industries too. Like, I think that's, that's the point, right? And even though, even though an agency recruiter is typically verticalized or assigned to a specific industry, we have access to all of the clients within, you know, specifically within tech for Ronstadt, right? Tech and engineering.

Yeah.

Depending on how they segment their, their industries.

How would you, as a job seeker, knowing what you know now about the industry, how would you navigate the job search if you're looking right now in a balance of networking with agency recruiters versus internal recruiters? How would you— I guess really, how would you go about like meeting people and stuff?

So I think one of the things that I would do, and I know you, you point this out a lot, which I totally love. Um, I love that. Is that, is that, um, whenever you— like, if you have a specific company, right, that you want to work for, I would come at it from every angle, right? Like, find an internal recruiter, find an agency recruiter, network with someone who works there. Who did you go to college with? Who did you do this with? Who has the same interests as you, right? Like, The greater your— you expand your network, the higher your chances are going to be of getting in that opportunity, right? Like, the more you know. So if it were me, knowing what I know now, I would absolutely just go 100% full send.

Jason, it's good to see you. Let me, let me ask you this. So because I really feel like there's 3 buckets when it comes to networking for jobs, right? You have, well, actually 4. You have your non-engineering leaders who could probably make referrals, right, into the company. You have your engineering leaders like Angie, who I had on yesterday, or like Dan. It's good to see you, Dan. That profile picture is unbelievable, by the way.

The hand, the human hand.

Yeah, yeah. So you got your employees of tech companies, you have your hiring managers of tech companies, then you have your internal recruiters.

Yeah.

And you have your agency recruiters. You have 4 buckets to essentially navigate your job search on. And I feel like, and even, even me sometimes, I feel like I harp on too much on the hiring manager and the internal, like, tech people. But I really feel like you should probably be talking to at least 1 agency recruiter a week and 1 internal recruiter a week. Thoughts on that?

No, I totally agree. It's depending on how, like, how active you are, right? If you're, if you're really, like, looking for a job. Oh my God, are you drinking cold brew?

No, it's not really cold. It's like, it's like I brew it myself, so it's not super caffeinated. It's like, it's more iced coffee. Gotcha.

Okay. So, yes, depending on how heavy on the job market you are, right? Like, if you need a job soon, like, go for it full send. I would totally agree. I also will say, like, Yes, I reach out to hiring managers, like get, get as much face time with people as you possibly can. But a lot of times hiring managers are very busy and they're typically the ones that are hardest to get in touch with. So whatever avenue you can find to like really put yourself out there the quickest way, I think is the best way, which in my opinion, maybe biased, is, is going to be recruiting.

What do you— so, and, and again, kind of put you on the spot here. So, so let's say, let's say you get laid off tomorrow. Hopefully it does not happen.

Um, doomsday prep.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, doomsday prep. How would you, how would you go about the job search now if you were to be laid off tomorrow?

If I was laid off tomorrow, first of all, I would immediately text you and be like, Taylor, I really need you to get me a job.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, no, I would. I would though. I will say, to your point that you mentioned earlier, through watching this stream, through being active in the Torque Discord, like, I have expanded my network significantly. Okay, like, I have totally piggybacked off of your network, which is great. Like, I love that.

I mean, I mean, that's the whole point. That's the whole point. Also, that clip right there, we're gonna get my video guy to edit that clip because that was so—

thank you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, so yes, I, I definitely would First of all, I would, I would make a decision on what I actually wanted to do, you know what I mean? Like, do I want to go back into staffing? Do I want to go into like more of a like software as a service or, or tech consulting? Like, whatever. Um, I would obviously brainstorm that, but reaching out to my network, like, I would start posting on LinkedIn like every— which I post on LinkedIn all the time anyway, but yeah, you know what I mean? Reaching out to people directly. Um, that would be my, my number one method. I mean, I have a, I have a pretty decent, even in the staffing world, like network now that if I reached out to a couple friends tomorrow, if I got laid off and I was like, hey, I need a job, they'd be like, cool, like we got you.

Do you think people should have— I'm not saying they have it written down, I think it would be good— but do you think, like, part of me is wondering, like, should people have, like, should people have like, hey, I have 20, 30, 40 people that are basically on speed dial that range from recruiters to colleagues to hiring managers. Do you think everybody should probably have that somewhere, at least in their mind, ready to go? Yeah.

I mean, I'm, like I said, doomsday prep. Like, I am a, I am a, like, I am a let's play this out to the very end.

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kind of person. So I would say yes, but I, I think It doesn't necessarily have to be like this list.

Sure.

If you can invest your time like when you have it to like be active in a community like Torque, for example, that's like, I love it. But if you invest your time, like you already are doing that, right? Without even like consciously saying, oh, I have like 20 people now that I could reach out to or, you know, potentially like who can like have my back if I need it.

Yeah, absolutely. There's actually been a few comments already. Um, Dave comes in here, agreed on the agent, agreed on the agency and internal at least once a week. Even if you don't need a job soon, proactive engagement is key. Getting a job is in itself a sales job. Yeah, I mean, one of the things I, I, I say this story a lot when I talk at conferences is that my dad is— was in the restaurant industry. And— or he still is. And he hit me up after he, he ran the Outback Steakhouse. Did I tell you that he ran the Outback? That's why I love Outback Steakhouse.

So, okay, we are the same age as this. Yeah, he ran it out back, but past the Bloomin' Onion, my favorite.

Yeah, yeah. So my dad was the proprietor of the Columbia, South Carolina store for 25 years.

That's crazy.

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I was like a 4-year-old eating steak in Outback. I mean, I grew up on Outback. And so Uh, this is not an Outback plug, by the way, but Outback, if you're looking—

Kind of is.

For sponsorship on the pod, we'd love that. Um, basically, um, and so when he, when he like left the— when he left, because I mean, it, it was, it was a grind there at the very end, he asked me, he's like, well, how do I find a job? He goes, the last time I was on the job search, the internet did not exist. And I was like, holy cow, you're old. And so basically, so I, I like, I like took a day and like I talked to my wife and I was like, I was like, how, how do I explain to a non-technical, very non-technical person who the internet didn't exist, how to find a job. And, and basically what I did is I gave him the framework of what a recruiter does. I was like, you know, hey, when I was at Vaco, we were— my— me and my team responsible for meeting 3 people a week. So we had to have like 15 what we called Vaco interviews, which is like screening, you know, a candidate. And, you know, for us— So, so then I told my dad, I was like, listen, I was like, I think— I'm not saying you got to do 3 a day, But I was like, I think you need to at least have one a day or 2 conversations a day. So I didn't know your thoughts on that.

No, I totally agree. Also, Dave is an amazing individual. Dave, he was my boss. Great guy. I love that. So, so yes, I totally agree. I think the more, the more you put into it, the more you're going to get out of it. Like this, at the end of the day, it is It kind of is a numbers game, right? Like, if you talk to, like, the greater your chances are of, like, finding that opportunity, right? Same thing with expanding your network. Like, the more people, the, the, the way that you, I guess, variabilize it, like how many different industries, like you open yourself up to so many opportunities that you didn't even think were possible for you prior to.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I totally agree. Yeah, 3, 2 a day is great. If you can do more than that, if you're— if you don't have a job, it is your job. Finding a job is your job.

Correct.

You have to sell yourself.

Um, Noah, our, our boy Noah. I've been on the search for a few months now and I've had 1 or 2 recruiters reach out. How do I get more? Um, I have a thought here, but I'm— but you're the guest, so I'll let you go first.

No, definitely reach out to them.

That would be my That would be my— I would say you need to reach out to them, Noah.

Yeah.

And, and, and I think like, you know, you know, a lot of times I think the biggest complaint is, well, all these agency recruiters and really recruiters in general say they can't help me right now. But the thing is, is I think there's a few questions to ask recruiters on a call that I think could help. And we talked about this in Laid Off Lounge, which, plug for our Discord, I do a basically bi-monthly kind of 30-minute chat to answer people's questions. I actually have another recruiter who's a friend of mine coming in on the live Laid Off Lounge Thursday, which tomorrow. Um, I think here, like, some questions to ask agency recruiters if they can't help you. One, how does my resume look? Give me one piece of advice, right? To be honest with you, I think agency recruiters are the best at writing resumes. Like, all these, like, resume writer career coaches out here are so disconnected, in my opinion. Um, I even got mad at my dad. My dad paid for a resume writer. I was like, Dad, you realize, you realize I do that, right? So unfortunately, whoever he paid did not do a good job. It was a very standard template that everybody does. Ask them that. Ask them, can you give me one recommendation to make my LinkedIn better? Can you, um, how— what am I asking salary-wise as compared to the industry?

Yeah.

Right. I think, I think agency recruiters, I think you have a really good idea of your industry and how much people charge and, and how to position yourself. 'Cause you could be asking for too much, you could be asking for too little. So I think that's incredibly important. So thoughts on that? Any other questions that people should ask if they— if a recruiter can't help them in the moment, is there anything else somebody should ask?

Yes, I definitely think, A, I don't know if it's necessarily like ask, right? Like I would just reach if they didn't have anything in that moment for you, like keep me in mind for when you do, right? But you have to make that impression, like reach out to them, connect, Stay like engaging with them on, on LinkedIn or social media or whatever. Um, try to, you know, talk to them as much as you can. Um, yes, all of those questions, amazing. I agree, people are not professional resume writers, but, but people who work in agency recruiting know resumes. I've said a million times like I should start a side hustle, right? Yeah.

Because I don't I don't actively promote it 'cause I never wanna be used as a resume guy, but people have reached out to me to help them with their resumes. And my batting average is pretty high for getting them a job just based off their resume. I love that. Because, yeah, because again, we know what we're looking at. Also, another tip that I have as well, I call it the BCC trick. It's not a fancy name, it's just the BCC trick. Get emails for all the recruiters you like, have a reminder to send out an email once a month and BCC all the recruiters and be like, hey, just checking in, reminder, here's what I want, here's what I'm looking for, here's what I'm good at. Because I think, I think you can attest to this as, as an agency recruiter, it's— we deal with so much, it— we, we, we can't keep up with everybody all the time.

Yeah, I'm, I'm gonna— I'm going to, um, add to that that I From a sales— like, from a sell-yourself perspective, I don't know that I would BCC. I feel like it needs to be more personalized in order to stand out. Like, if it were me, I think that also depends on the person that you're talking to, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Like, some people are like, oh yeah, like, that's great. But I think other people would prefer, like, personalized communication. Not everyone has the time to do that, so anything you can do, do.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, let's see, I'm going through the comments here. Uh, a lot of Outback comments. Um, yeah, proactively reach out to them. Tip, call recruiting places to get them working on your behalf. Yeah, again, like, you know, we, we, we get paid if you get paid, so we, we have, we have an invested interest.

Totally.

Um, let's see here. Oh, let's see here. Brian goes, all this is very new to me. How do you even begin to look for recruiters to reach out to and try? This is a great question.

Yeah, that's a good question. I think do your research on the, you know, the large, you know, they're Ronstadt, obviously. I'm gonna ship Ronstadt all the way.

Sure, yeah, yeah, why not?

You know, so do some research, find some people on LinkedIn just like you would if you were trying to find somewhere to work. Like if you wanted to work in a specific company, find people that work at that company, find the recruiters who, you know, sometimes they're linked to job postings like on LinkedIn.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, expound on that real quick. I don't think people know that.

Okay. So when recruiters post their jobs on LinkedIn, most of the time, unless they do it anonymously, which I don't know why anyone would do that, but most of the time it had— you have the ability to see the person like the internal recruiter, the agency recruiter who, who actually posted that job. And when you do that, you can easily go to their profile. It'll also show you like other potential contacts. at that company based off of who posted that job. So if you use LinkedIn to the best of your, like, to the most that you possibly can, you will find like it can be extremely beneficial. It really helps you expand your network without you even really having to do like so much.

Yep, absolutely.

That makes sense.

All right, so, so I'm gonna share my— let's do a real-time example here for Brian. So what, what I would do, Brian, is first off I would look I, I would do a search for tech recruiter. Like, just start. So like, prime— so Brandon, I don't know Brandon, but Brandon's a tech recruiter at YouTube. Hit up Brandon. Hey Brandon.

Yeah.

Like, you know, here's what I do, here's what I wanna do. Do you have any thoughts on how to get connected more at YouTube? You know, Michael Newman, tech recruiter. Um, you know, Heidi. Heidi is hiring a senior contract— well, that obviously you're— that's, that's recruiting, but like, I'd hit up Heidi. Right, like, like literally I Google tech recruiter and you can see all that's, all that's, um, who's posting. Another thing too, like if you're a developer, Yeah. Type in software developer or, or if you wanna get more specific on things, but you can see right here, um, all the people that are commenting, but then all the people who are looking for jobs too pops up as well, right? And so then, so, so this is an example right here, right? So Wolf is hiring a senior Ruby engineer. Ash posted the job. This is what Jordan was talking about. Everybody see that? So again, what I would do is I would hit up Ash and be like, hey Ash, saw you were posting, didn't know if I needed to directly apply, would love to talk to you more about this role, yada, yada, yada. So I really think like it's that use the search feature within LinkedIn. It's not the best, right? Let's just call it what it is. It's not the best. But it's a good place to start.

It is. And it'll tell you too, like, if the more you have on your profile, right, like where you went to college, like what your interests are, it will actually tell you like how many people in your network or how many people who also attended like the University of Alabama currently work there.

Or so I'm gonna interrupt you quick. You brought up, you've brought up college a few times now. Talk about why. Talk about why you think college is so important.

Because people, people love, like, there's this, there's this sense of, I mean, you know, because you went to South Carolina. Especially if it's an SEC school.

I just like it.

I'm driving that home. Like, I'll— I have, I have sold that that way before, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, roll tide, like, let's go.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you, you don't have to go to South Carolina, but if you message me and you're like, hey, SEC guy, yeah, you know, how's, how's South Carolina Gamecocks football going to look this year? I will respond to you 11 out of 10 times.

Well, same. And even for me, like If I, you know, if someone went to Auburn and they messaged me and they're like, Bama sucks, I'd be like, let's fight about it. And then, yeah, conversation, you know what I mean? And vice versa.

Yeah, yeah. And again, this is, this is huge what Jordan's bringing up, is I would really look at people's LinkedIn before messaging them and see if you have something in common, right? Um, I also think too, putting a, a little bit about you in the about section about like what you want to do. Outback is overrated, Jeff. Yeah, I mean, like, look, listen, like Calm down. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, people say, people say iced coffee stinks and hot coffee is better. I'd say you're a crazy person, but like, we'll talk about it, right? So, you know, again, like, I, I think people desperately right now want to like connect at a more meaningful level than just job stuff. Yeah. Um, and so I think if you can break down that wall, that's huge. Um, this obviously went completely different than I expected it.

This is obviously immediately no.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So But so, so I do want to talk about career transition because I know we've been talking about recruiting, and I do want to get to this. Talk about, talk about just advice, tips. I mean, you went from real estate into recruiting, you didn't know any better. I mean, talk, talk about maybe just some tips just for career transitioners in general.

Yeah, it's really funny because the episode, the podcast episode that I released today actually—

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you want to plug the pod, go ahead.

Yeah, Hired and Wired. Listen to it. It's a great podcast. At least I think so. But again, bias. So I want to start off by saying that I think career transitioning is absolutely terrifying. Like when you you're you're going into somewhere brand new, you have no idea what the hell you're doing. Like you're like this is I've never been in this position before. But when I when I left real estate, I was so miserable. Like in the industry that I worked in, I was not happy. I was like, I'm willing to try anything. And Casey Walters is a friend of mine, and he had me apply to this recruiting job. Yeah, never recruited, didn't know anything about—

I didn't know recruiters even existed.

What is a recruiter? What was a recruiter like? It was not— no, not for me. Um, but I didn't know anything about tech, and so— but I was willing to try anything. And I went into the interview, and I— when I it was the environment. Like, the environment from the moment I walked into that office was so amazing. I was like, oh my God, like, I would love to work here. Like, everyone was together. It was like this team. Like, you know, if you've ever worked in staffing, like, there's a, there's a vibe on the floor. There is. There's a vibe on the floor. Um, it's a good, good place to work. And I think Roundshot's pretty tame in comparison to some others. But anyway, so yeah, I, I Going into it, I what I did was I was like, I'm just gonna 100% commit, right? Like I'm gonna learn everything that I possibly can. I'm a big like you know if I don't know, like I need someone to explain something to me like I'm five years old. So I'll Google like I remember like YouTubing like what is a project manager?

Yes.

What is it? What is a solutions architect? Like what do they do? And I used to watch these whiteboard sessions where they would explain from start to finish like how it worked and how the other. how the other, like, roles build off of that or how they build off of the other positions.

Yeah.

So that was how I started. And as I went on, I started learning more and more by actually picking up the phone and, like, talking to people, right? Like, letting people yap about their, like, application development experience. Like, you will learn— you will learn so much by admitting that you don't actually know anything.

That, and I think that's the ultimate networking. People are like, well, I don't know what to talk about, I don't know what to ask. And it's like, just get the other person talking about themselves, right? I, I think if you're a career transitioner, I think the biggest thing is like, hey, what's your biggest advice for somebody getting into the industry?

Yeah.

Like, people will love to give, give you advice. And so if you get the other person talking, it's just a huge, huge unlock. What do you think, um, What do you think people, uh, so obviously talk to your network, see what's out there from a career transition perspective, um, uh, have conversations, um, from a just general— I mean, because when you were going from real estate, like, did you have anything else in mind that you wanted to do? Like, like, I guess, I guess, how did you end up in recruiting based off conversations? I'm kind of curious about that.

Honestly, I didn't have an idea of what I wanted to do. I just knew—

So you were just completely like, I know I don't know, I don't know what I want to do next?

Yeah, it was so like, I had just moved to Dallas, like my everything was so up in the air, like I didn't really— it was, I'm telling you, like if you are physically uncomfortable enough in a position that you're in, like a job, you will do anything to get out of it. You don't even care like what it is. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

It was something that interested me because it was something I hadn't done before. Like, I love learning new things. I'm a freaking sponge for knowledge, both useful and useless. Like, I, I love that. Um, so, so for me, that was, that was really the only avenue. And I honestly think I'm, I'm a very big— like, when it comes to, um, like sensing the environment, like, I really think when I went in there for that interview that day and I felt like the vibes on the floor I think that is like— I was like, this is it. Like, I knew it.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, again, even for me, like, um, uh, I, I, I had the reason how I got into recruiting is crazy is I had a crush on this girl. She didn't like me, she liked my lead singer. Story of my life. And basically I asked her because I was serving tables at Outback in Nashville, go figure. And, and I was, I was losing money and I was like, I was like, I was like, who do you know? I was like, I was like, I was like, do you know anybody? She was like, why, nanny for somebody? who is, who is looking to hire a recruiter? And I was like, well, I don't know what that is. Can you just give me the information? Called into the front desk, got an interview, 2 weeks later got the job, and now I'm here. And, and then now, and then now I'm here. So again, like, just ask. Like, just, hey, what do you do? And I think I'm really excited to plug Angelo podcast, um, coming up is it's gonna be more— we're gonna— Angelos is really gonna start, um, talking to people not in engineering, but just general tech and interviewing them on what they do to give more of a picture on what else is out there in the tech industry. 'Cause I feel like people are like, tech industry, developer, and it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Like there's so much out there. Project management, business analyst, data analyst, customer success person. I'm Angelos' first guest. And so I'm gonna talk about how to be a recruiter. What does it look like to be a recruiter, right?

Mm-hmm.

And so there's so much out there aside from engineering that I would encourage you all that if, if, if, if engineering isn't working for you, there's many different ways to get into tech.

Yeah, I agree. I love that too because I feel like that will help so many people. Also, you were like networking before you even knew that you were.

Isn't that crazy? Isn't that crazy?

But you know, the, the proof is in the pudding. Like, it works.

Yeah, absolutely.

It worked for you from day one. You gotta put yourself out there. Even if they like your lead singer more than they like you.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Absolutely. You always want to shoot your shot.

Yeah. Overcome challenges. All right. So, all right. This was great. Love this. If you want to connect with Jordan, she's very active in our Discord. We'd love to have you. tork.dev/discord. A little rapid fire here for you as we wrap up. First off, plug your pod one more time.

Hired and Wired Pod. We're on YouTube.

What, what is it about?

I think, I think Jason said it best on Laid Off Lounge. It's about everything and nothing. We talk about career topics. Um, we talk about, you know, funny, relatable work stuff. Yeah, we work in the office. It's a good time. Um, I love it. We have a little bit of a hiccup. We just— I just lost 2 pod members this week, so it's—

There you go. We will rebuild. Um, uh, yeah, so go check out Hired and Wired. Um, uh, all right, uh, the first question is, is if I told you you wake up tomorrow, you can't do anything in recruiting, what's one— but I would pay you the same if not more, money was not an issue— what hobby would you pursue?

What hobby would I pursue? Probably, probably podcasting. I would, I would really just go all in. Like, if money was not an option, you know, not an issue, like 100%, that's what I would do.

I love that. I love that. Um, next question. We, we're getting close to Easter. Okay, candy is on the shelves. What is your go-to candy for Easter?

No one has another answer to this question besides Reese's Eggs.

Yeah, listen, I— this could be an entire podcast in and of itself. I don't know what Reese's does, but the, the ratio is not good in, in, in the small cups for sure. I would say not even the big cups. I think the Christmas trees, the eggs, the pumpkins— elite, elite ratio of peanut butter to chocolate.

It's just because they're fun shapes. It's like if you eat fun shapes of mac and cheese, like, it tastes somehow—

yeah, it just automatically tastes better.

Enjoying the experience.

I love that. I love that. Next question. Anybody kind of in your network you want to give a shout out to just for what they're doing? You know, just in general, anybody you admire that you want to give a shout out to?

You know, it's really funny is I watched this podcast, so I know that this question was coming and I thought about it in advance because I was like, who would I say? Like, I don't know, you know? And then I was like, actually, I'm going to be really I'm just gonna go real cliché and really sappy, is like, I absolutely love what you and Jason and Brianna and Angelo and Ximena are doing. You guys are incredible. Like, I, I think that the sense of community you guys are providing to people is— it's an unmatched experience. Like, if you—

Yeah.

I cannot stress that enough. Like, you— I think people thrive in human connection. I think people don't always know where to find human connection in this day of modern, everyone's on social media, like how do you actually find that deeper thing? And I just feel like you guys hit the nail on the head so much. It's, it's awesome. Like, it's admirable. Yeah, I love it.

Thank you, Jason. Jason's not good with feelings, so, um, uh, Jason, just accept it.

Oh, Jason, just take it properly and move on with your life.

I appreciate it. Um, next question, um, and I forget to ask this sometimes, so you may not be prepared to hear. What's like just one fun piece of content you've read, watched, viewed Recently? Any Netflix things you're watching? Any Apple TV you're watching? Just anything fun that you're watching that you really enjoy right now.

I mean, I've been watching White Lotus. I haven't seen the finale though, so like, don't— okay, no spoilers. Um, I also started watching Severance last night.

I've been—

yes, so many things. Yeah, I had it on social media. I was like, I have to, I have to jump on this train. Immediately was like, this is the weirdest thing I've ever seen.

Yes, it's great. Big fan.

You can imagine that.

I'm deep in it for sure. All right, last question and we'll wrap up. The show's called Guidance Counselor 2.0 because we had guidance counselors in middle school, high school, and college, but now as adults we don't really have a guidance counselor to turn to and ask for general career advice. If you can go back in time, young Jordan out of college, what's the biggest advice you would tell her?

Stop being so afraid.

Huh, that's what Angie said yesterday.

Just do it. Just freaking do it. Like, it's okay. It doesn't matter at the end of the day. Like, How you feel like you might look is not the reality. People think about you a lot less than you think they do. So just do it and do it loudly. Like, don't minimize yourself. Don't make yourself smaller to feel like you have to fit into places you don't need to.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. All right, y'all. Well, thank you again for hanging out with us today. Appreciate it, Jordan. You're a gem.

Thanks for having me.

Again, if you want to hang out with Jordan, she's very active in our Discord. So love to have you obviously connect with her as well. And tomorrow I have my guy Kevin on the pod. Kevin is— he was the previous COO at Vercel. He is founder CEO at a fast-growing startup right now. So we're gonna talk about kind of hiring, what it looks like from a startup side of things, things to consider if you wanna jump into a startup versus more of an enterprise environment. So it'll be a great conversation tomorrow. He is awesome. So that's tomorrow. And then Friday, I just booked Lawrence, Lawrence Lockhart. He just got a job, um, and his strategy was crazy. Uh, he and I were DMing yesterday. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was like, I just need to interview you. So I typically don't go live on Fridays, but I want to go live with Lawrence because his strategy was crazy. So Thursday and Friday gonna be great. So again, appreciate y'all for hanging out today, and, uh, we'll see y'all tomorrow morning, 9:30 AM Central. Jordan, stay on so I can say bye to you backstage. See y'all.

Hey, guys.