Community Always Wins w/Chris DeMars, Sr. Dev Advocate @ TuxCare

All righty, that— this, and then we got this.

Sweet.

Uh, good morning everybody. The power of technology. I'll tell you this, man, the fact I could just press like go and then we were syncing to 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 profiles at one time, it's pretty slick. Technology is great. Technology is great. Uh, good morning everybody, we are back. I am back, uh, from my LATAM tour. Um, you know, basically, uh, I say this all the time, building community, as Chris knows, is like being in a band. And we were on our LATAM leg, LATAM tour. We, uh, headlined Mexico City and Santiago, Chile. I'm just kidding. Uh, but it was great. Your boy's working on his Spanish. It's a little rusty, but I do know how to order 2 cold brews in Spanish. 2 large cold brews. So, uh, we're working on it. I got good morning, good afternoon, and good evening. So I got that too. So we're heading there.

My man, my man.

Um, but, uh, good morning folks. Welcome. Say hey, we'd love to hear from you. Um, this, uh, excited for this episode. You know, Chris, Chris is one of those guys, and it's not an excuse, but I'm gonna say it anyways. A lot of people that I view as like really good friends, I never asked to come on the show, uh, because I just view them as friends and I always forget to ask. And Chris is one of those guys. Um, and so, uh, I, I, I think, I think you finally texted me, um, and you were like, yo, we should do this. I was like, oh, every time I'm like, y'all, Chris is great, why don't I just ask? So I'm glad Chris I'm glad Chris was on me, um, and, uh, and we made this happen. This is a reschedule of a reschedule, um, but you know, we're a little bit, uh, because, because Chris, how long you been at TuxCare for now?

Uh, let's see, going on 10 months. I'll be— it's almost a year in June.

Yeah, so we're about 10 months late. Yeah, to be totally frank. Yeah, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna retro kind of call it Jeff. It's not 9:30. I, I understand, but listen, listen, Chris, Chris is great. We're gonna yap it up a little bit, not a big deal.

Yeah, boy.

Uh, Chris, uh, we, we were, uh, was that actually you that messaged me last night on Threads? Yes, yes, yes, it was, it was. That was me. Um, uh, so Chris, you're a hockey fan, right?

I am, buddy. Yes, sir.

Detroit Red Wings, right?

Yes, sir.

Uh, I'm sorry for the fact you're not in playoffs this year.

What can you do? What can you do? I know what you can do. I know what they can do. They don't take bricks. Yeah, Chris and I—

yeah, explain the, the Detroit conundrum of sports.

All right, if everybody's tuned in, so this is how it works. We do great. Lions, Tigers, Red Wings, Pistons are still doing good. Lions, Tigers, Red Wings were destroying the season. We take a break. Let's say this year we had the Olympics, so the Red Wings went on the Olympic break. Come back, we shit the bed. Last year the Lions were doing great. They had a week or two off. Come back from that, they shit the bed. We don't make the playoffs. Same thing with the Tigers. Tigers do great. They have the All-Star Game, All-Star Week. Come back from that, shit the bed. and don't make any of the playoffs. We just, we just can't take breaks. It's just, that's just the fact of the matter. No breaks, no breaks.

Anybody from any sports teams watch this or listen to this podcast in the future, stop taking breaks.

Well, that's my— that's why I suck at hockey. And you're a hockey player, I'm a hockey player. I've taken a long break, and every time I get back on the ice, I suck.

So yeah, I actually— and again, we started early so we can just yip-yap here for a second. Again, if you are tuning in, please say hey. We'd love to hear from you. Um, uh, we would love to hear from you. You know, I, I always said when— so when, when my ice hockey team, we played tournaments, I always hated getting bye games in playoffs, right? Usually kind of these small ice hockey beer league tournaments, if you place first, you usually have a bye. Typically, most times those, we got beat because we took a break, right?

Right.

Because you're coming in cold at 10 AM in the morning or 11 AM, and the other team has already skated at 8 AM and they're Right. You know, ready to go. So yeah, it is, is hard. I will also say this, and again, that's why I was excited to talk with Chris about, because of the hockey side of things. I don't get to talk about hockey that much cuz there's a lot, I mean, I love y'all, but there's not a lot of nerds that play ice hockey. Um, uh, I think another thing too is like, I've thought about the NHL a lot. I can't, people don't understand how grueling that is. Like I played, I've played in a few high, high competitive weekend tournaments for ice hockey. And I play, you know, 6 games in a weekend, and these guys have already played 82 regular season games, then have to go in. And playoff hockey is a whole nother level.

Whole different game.

Whole different game. And, you know, same thing I've played with tournaments, it's a whole different level too. Like, people don't understand how physically grueling it is, but then also mentally. Yeah. By the way, did, did Pittsburgh win last night or no?

So funny story, funny story about that. I was at B-Dubs because I really wanted a chicken sandwich.

Yeah.

And they lost power. Oh, they lost power? No, they— no, B-Dubs lost power.

Yeah.

All the games were on, right? Baseball was on, basketball, hockey, all those games were on, and they lost power. And people are just sitting at the bar on their phones watching games, and I'm sitting there, I'm like I hope this power turns back on because I really want a chicken sandwich. And I walked out—

I really want a chicken sandwich.

I walked out with 2 beers on my tab and, uh, that was that. They never got power back. So I don't know if Pittsburgh won, but if you say they won, they did.

So again, prime example, Philadelphia Flyers up 3-0 and now Pittsburgh has won the last. It's just, it's so, it's so difficult. People just don't understand. So Uh, anyways, all right, we're about 9:30, so we'll go ahead and like get official now. But good morning everybody, happy Tuesday, welcome to Guidance Counselor 2.0. Um, again, excited to have Chris DeMars on the show. Um, again, like I tell folks, listen, this is a, this is a net— this is a networking session, right? This is an online meetup. Um, you know, been doing this thing for years. We've kind of cut back on the episodes partially because I just don't have time to schedule as many people as I want to. Or B, um, uh, you know, even have time to go live. Like, I'm in meetings for the rest of the day. So I'm excited to hang out with Chris today. It's the only one of the week. Um, and, and to be totally frank with you, this is the last one I have scheduled right now. So I have to figure out, uh, to, to get more people on the show. But, uh, before Chris introduces himself, uh, I want to kind of go through some announcements. Uh, first and foremost, um, uh, if you want to know when I go live, with guests like Chris, and when I book guests, that is, moving forward, text me. This is my number. Also, if you want just any job search questions, text me too. Um, if you want like immediate like, uh, response, I, I check this obviously more than anything else, so please text me if you need me. Uh, jump into the Torque Discord. Uh, we got a lot going on. We got resume reviews tomorrow with, uh, the legend Will Klein. Um, so we're doing that also. Uh, the unofficial coffee sponsor— I forgot to grab my coffee, but I'm drinking it right now— Seek to Live. Um, I'm, um, a founder here in Nashville, um, uh, developed a coffee company that is free of mold. I did not know this, but supposedly a lot of coffee has trace amounts of mold in it. Um, so, you know, Chris, it's a very Nashville thing, right? Um, and so basically I got a discount, but, but I'm having a talk with Caleb today, the founder. We are working on a pretty hefty discount for the Torque community. Um, um, and so I, I want Seek Coffee to be the coffee that powers Torque community, just like Torque is the talent that powers Ronstadt Digital. See what I did there?

You should, you should make your own branded coffee with them and call it like Guidance Counselor 2.0 or Torque. Just have your own brand under that label, bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's—

I love that. I love that.

See, you see, You're so good. I'm just, I'm just not tattooed, you know. I got good ideas.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So, uh, let's see, is there anything else? Anything else? Announcements? Uh, torque.dev, jump into the Discord, hang out. Yeah, yeah, blah blah blah. Okay, cool, sweet. Uh, but again, good morning everybody. Um, David, it's good to see you. Erica, it's good to see you. Chris, you gotta stop scheduling these things during stand-up. Um, uh, and just good to see you, Jeff. It's good to see you. Um, uh, Ricardo, it's good to see you as well. Amelia, uh, we got the crew in here this morning. Y'all continue to comment. Lucas is here as well. I read that as Seeked Olive. Close, close.

Very good.

Mark, my guy. Good morning. Good morning. Um, all right, so Chris, let's introduce yourself. Give the people what they want. Who are you and what do you do?

Oh, so who I am, it depends on who you talk to. Uh, but the name is Chris. I'm from the Metro Detroit area, Senior Developer Advocate At Tuxcare, in my spare time, I'm a competitive bass angler, competitive paintball player, and I like searching for UFOs, ghosts, and Bigfoot.

Should we talk conspiracy theories?

People, I don't know if appropriate.

We should do like an after hours one night. We just go live and just talk. I will talk conspiracy theories if you ever need somebody to talk conspiracy theories with. I love all of them. I love all of them. So we should do it. Uh, all right, so Chris, so Chris, you— so, so kind of the framework for this conversation this morning is your last job search. It was grueling, right? How many months were you kind of on the search?

Oh, the last time— because every time, every time there's a job search that I'm in, we do it like a guidance counselor 2.0.

Well, I think it's so good, right? I mean, I think, I think your story resonates with everybody.

This time around, uh, it was almost 6 months. Close to 6 months, I think. Is that your long—

that wasn't your longest one, right? Or was that your longest?

Oh, ooh, let's see. Yeah, I think so.

Is that your longest?

Yeah. Yep.

So walk me through it, man. I mean, let's kind of start high level. What worked? What didn't? Let's talk— let's start there.

Oh, I've— it's so hard, man, because like you wake up and you get that, you know, that meeting or that email. Like, because we've had friends that have been canned over an email, which is some BS.

Yeah.

Uh, but it's hard, man. And like, me being the grinder that I am, like, there's a lot of people out there that, you know, they get the news or whatever and they're like, oh, I'm gonna take a few weeks to to process and decompress. Like, who's got the time to do that? Yeah, who's got the time to take— just take the time? Like, time is money, you know what I mean? Your job is to find a job, not to take 2 or 3 weeks to yourself. Like, you're running out of money, especially if you have single income. It's a different story if you have like a, you know, a dual income and—

Sure.

You have savings and stuff.

Different for sure.

Every situation is different, but like, you got to be on that hustle. So like, the second I got laid off from that gig at DO, I, uh, I just started applying. Just started applying, applying, applying, telling everybody I knew across various Slack channels, Blue Sky, LinkedIn, anything I could do. Like, hey, I need a gig. If you know anybody, you know somebody that's looking, let me know, let me know, let me know. And then you just, you just start and you just hit the ground running.

Yeah. What, uh, you know, I'm, I'm curious, what, what were the kind of the conversations like? How, how did they How do they shift over time?

What—

because what I'm trying to get at is like, I mean, I'm sure a lot of people probably said, oh great, thanks for letting me know, but not now.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, a lot of like— it's— it— DevRel specifically, it goes up and down, right? And any, any of my developer advocate friends or DevRel people, uh, in the chat or that are tuned in, I'm I understand that fully. Like, there's always like ebbs and flows with it. And last year when I was interviewing, it seemed like everybody and their brother and sister were hiring. But a lot of these companies didn't have a clue what DevRel was.

Sure.

But because they— but they saw Company A had a DevRel team, or a DevRel team, I don't like calling it a team, but for this we'll call it a team. So they needed a team, right? And they needed developer advocates because Company A had them. Or like a competitor, oh, our competitor has a DevRel team, so we need one too. Then you start breaking down those conversations with people on the team, leadership, like, okay, well, where does this investment come from? Whose idea was this to have a DevRel team? Why do you need a DevRel team? Do you even understand what developer advocacy is? Do you understand the meaning of developer relations? And it's like a deer in headlights, like, oh, we're gonna figure it out. It's like, no, no, no, you can't just figure it out. Someone needs to have full investment in this mission, which is what I call it. I call it a mission to understand the value of it. You just can't throw shit at the wall and expect it to stick. Like, that's just not— that's how you, you're gonna fail at this.

Yeah.

Because you just think everything in, you know, throw everything in the bucket and here we go.

Yeah.

There needs to be a strategic investment from the top, not just like a team lead, right? Like CEC level or a founder level. Hey, has to fully invest in it or has had to have worked in DevRel and understands the true value of it. So those conversations go this way and the other. And like, I've had conversations with people last year when I was interviewing where they wanted to hire someone to build out a whole entire program and pay them peanuts. It's like, what? Like, you were expecting me or someone else to be the VP, director, team lead and the DA of the DevRel team?

Yeah.

And you're gonna pay me this much money? Like, no, no, no, no. And that's where like a complete disconnect comes in. And if you were to look at the State of DevRel report from last year, it shows that. Like, that isn't— some of the numbers I was getting weren't even like median levels. They were like junior levels. You can't bring me in at a junior level to build out your whole entire program. And a lot of those conversations were like that. So you really gotta like Understand the landscape and know how to navigate those conversations.

So what do you, what do you think, uh, what do you think is like the best advice for that? Because I feel like— so I, I have this hot take and I'm interested to hear your thoughts. You can absolutely disagree with me, that's why I love you. Um, also I do want to give a shout out to Chris. I'm gonna say this, Chris, I, I, sidebar, I got a little sentimental last night. Uh, I was, I was, I was thinking about you and our relationship. Uh, you're— you were the first speaker I had ever been blown away by that I saw, as— because I was at Vayco at the time, and me, you, and Kyle Welch had lunch at Peg Leg Porker.

Yep.

And you've just been such a good friend to me, and so I just I just want to say thank you. Like, I, I, I got something. I got my feels. I was like, man, Chris and I, we, we go way back. Yeah, we've, we've, we've run, you know, across— you know, we've obviously crossed paths at conferences, and I still think you're one of the better speakers I've ever seen. So I just want to give you your flowers here. Appreciate you.

Appreciate you.

Um, all right, going back. Uh, also Danny T in the chat, I love it. Um, how— my hot take is I think people should try to talk themselves out of jobs in the sense of they should disqualify the job and really nitpick it as much as they feasibly can. What are your thoughts on that statement?

I agree. I agree with that. Um, I mean, it depends on the job, but like, definitely doing the research, as much research as you can. Like reading the— like read the JD job description, check out LinkedIn, try to figure out everything that you can. And then all of the stuff that you think like, hmm, I don't know if that's gonna work, just break it down. Because I've done that. Like there's a specific— like for example, there's a specific cadence of conferences that I speak at every year. You know that, everybody in the chat knows that. I go all over the world. My superpower is speaking to an audience and being with the community to teach and to learn and to mentor, right? That is what I do. That is where I shine. And I'm not saying like I'm a shit writer or shit video person. Like I do all my own videos. I write blogs. I love doing all that. I have a background in writing. But if an organization Hasn't— like, if you're going through a job description and an organization doesn't have anything about conferences or like minimal conferences, start picking that apart. And then if you do have that interview, tell it, like, in my opinion, like what I've done just to weed things out, I was like, well, if you can't match this, then, you know, this isn't a good fit because A, that's gonna come back, probably bite you in the ass for one, and B, you're not gonna get the full potential out of me as a developer advocate. if you're not doing like A, B, and C according to like what your job description is. So I, I do agree with you on that.

And Danny, Danny, shut up, man. I still think, I, I still think Danny, Danny's top tier. Danny's S tier. Chris is S tier. Danny's S tier. Stop, Danny. Um, Danny, shout out to Danny.

Yeah, shout out to Commit Your Code way back.

Yeah, Danny, I, I, I saw this random guy talking about how we used to fried chicken at gas stations, and he wants to do LinkedIn reviews and who's available. And I slid into his DMs, and I still get messages from that LinkedIn I did with Danny 6 years later. It's got like—

Damn.

Thousands of views. Anyways, Dan, I appreciate you. Stop that. I love you. All right, um, have you had to learn to disqualify— like, how have you learned in your job experience to ask good questions and to disqualify the job? Because I feel like a lot of people just want to jump into like the next thing because I know it's hard, right? Money is important, especially in today's economy. It's a whole other conversation. Um, how, how have you gotten comfortable with that? Do you have any advice at all?

I— so one, and I'm going to shout out another homie that is the GOAT, Jeremy Meese. Yeah, I'm gonna shout him out. I've always relied— and even Jeremy, Mike Hartington, you know, people that have been doing the DevRel game at really high levels, like Mike and Jeremy have both been managers and directors and have built and led DevRel teams. And, you know, I sort of did that too in different roles, but like managing a group of people under an organization, I've always kind of leaned on them to formulate questions That I could ask. And I have a huge set of questions that I got from Jeremy a couple years ago that are team-specific. So every time I'm having like either an interview or I'm like, or I do get hired and I'm having conversations with, uh, like various team members, Mm-hmm. like I'll have a set of questions for a sales team, I'll have a set of questions for marketing, I'll have a set of questions for leadership, I'll have a set of questions for engineering. And even if you're interviewing with those people, getting different takes on everybody's questions at a high level really can tell you about how much an organization understands and knows DevRel, or any role for that matter, and where that investment comes from. So definitely lean on other people who have been in that role at high levels or have been in that role for like years.

Yeah.

Like, if you're going to get into DevRel, Don't ask a friend of yours that's been doing it for 6 months, like, interview questions, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Like, they're new. Like, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it. Like, they're— it's not gonna work that way. But if you know a friend of yours that's been doing DevRel for 10 years, they're the ones to ask, hey, I got this job interview coming up. What are some great questions I can ask? And they've been there, they've done that, they've interviewed probably hundreds of times. I've probably done over 500 interviews. for DevRel in my career over the past 3, 4 years. They're the ones to rely on. So ask your friends.

Chris, Chris, what does that sound like? I think that sounds like community.

I think that it is.

I think that sounds like community.

It is. And you have to have a community, like networking and community are huge. Like literally, like people like sleep on it. Like it's, it's, it's, it's weird to me that people sleep, that aren't in community sleep on community. Like, that bothers me. And another thing that bothers me— I'm gonna go on a rant— is that nobody uses social media the way it should be used anymore.

Talk about it.

Back in the day, back in the day, 10, 15 years ago, you'd be at a conference, everybody in that audience would be taking pictures, tweeting, putting on LinkedIn, quote tweeting, quote— like, putting quotes of what you're saying, everything. Now it's a struggle to get anybody that isn't just a friend. Like, for instance, Roxy, Nick, anybody that's in the chat that's like friends of you and me, they'll come to the talk, they'll tweet about it, they'll post on LinkedIn, but nobody else in that audience is like privy to how this stuff works. And that bothers me. Like, that really, really bothers me. And I think that's another reason why I kind of stopped doing it. Like during conference talks, like I'm not taking pictures and like remembering what the person said and putting it in quotes and tweeting it and tagging them. Like nobody's using it anymore for what it was made to be used for. And you can say what you want, blah, blah, blah. Like I always say, it'll be— it'll always be Twitter, it'll never be X. Like I'm trying to still preserve what it is, but it's just, it's just not anymore. And that shit bothers me, especially when you come from like old school community. Like I've been doing this a long time. And, you know, I've been— I've gone to conferences for well over a decade, and people would just tweet and tweet and tweet in every session they're in and post pictures, and nobody does that anymore. Unless it's like a big event, like a huge, huge, huge event. But like these smaller developer community-focused events, like, our friends are posting of us, and we're posting of our friends. Like randos and strangers. the community that are in the room. Nobody's doing that anymore. It's like, it's not about— it doesn't exist.

I think that I tweeted this yesterday. Still call it tweeting. I tweeted this yesterday. I said, I think one of the biggest unlocks to build community is taking selfies.

I used to do that all the time back in the day.

I know.

And I just— everybody just seemed like, oh well, this, this whole situation has shit the bed, we're not going to do it anymore. I'm like, all right, well, I guess it kind of snowballed to me, and I don't even do it anymore. Like, yeah, I'm there to do my thing, and then that's that. Because it just seems like nobody cares, and it's hard when nobody else— it's hard to like, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. It's extremely hard to like talk about community and like, hey, listen, if you're doing anything tweeting, LinkedIn, use the hashtag developer community, and like, this is a good way for the community to track the engagement across events and what people are learning. You know, nobody wants to do that, and it's— it bothers me. It really— yeah.

Jason comes in. People sleep on until it needs to be monetized, not how it works. Yep, true. Agreed, agreed. So let's go back to the interview side of things.

Love your rants.

That's why I love interviewing you. Um, so I'm really big on follow-up in the job search. I feel like a lot of people, like, talk to people and like day one and then just like leave them alone. Did you have any sort of follow-up strategy? Did follow-up land you the job you're at now? Or give me some thoughts on your— just your thoughts on follow-up.

Um, if the— if I feel like it was a good conversation, like the first initial conversations, then I would definitely follow up. Like try to find an email, even if it's like through LinkedIn. Like, hit that person up, tell them thank you, send an email, tell them thank you. Give them as much information about yourself as needed. Like, if they just have a resume, cool, okay, sweet. They saw your resume, you had the first interview, follow up, but then send them all the other shit that you have. Send them a portfolio, a profile, uh, a list of your speaking engagements, a list of certifications and awards that you've won, a list, you know, a list of YouTube videos of you speaking at conferences, blog posts, like all this other stuff, like send them all that so they can be like, oh wow, like this is amazing. I can send this off to team lead or hiring manager. One thing that I have, and I learned this from Eric Bouchard, who's a great developer advocate. He and I are buddies. We've spoken at conferences together. He told me a few years ago, create like a portfolio of of sorts. So I did it on Dev.to, and it's all about my tenure as a Senior Developer Advocate, like a breakdown of who I am, what I love doing the most, companies I've worked at. And then I have a section of conference talks, I have a section of blogs, I have a section of streams, I have a section for my— the awards and, like, accolades I have within the community. There's a section for my, uh, speaking schedule and all that stuff. And I just give somebody that link And I'm like, here, every— this isn't everything I've done.

That has helped?

Yes, really, 100%. Yep, yep. And you can tell, and, and if you use like Bitly or Rebrandly or whatever, you, you create, you know, a short link and send that out, and then you can track the metrics on that to see how many views you've had. Yeah, I mean, if there's views, that means people are looking at it, right? Maybe if they're not interacting with the links, at least they're seeing what you've done because they're just reading through it.

So yeah.

That's really good, like a one-stop shop, I guess you could say.

Yeah, I love that. So talk we had we had a few comments come in. Let's see here.

Da da da.

We got we got so people tuned in. I love it. Mark comes in. I'm glad to see. Golly, StreamYard's got to fix this. Chris looks like Wilson from Tim the Toolman Taylor right now. I'm glad to see conferences are back. I worked at a highly recognized and saw the pivot to no. Longer funding folks to attend events unless with a client. Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, I do think it's back, more back than it definitely has been. Um, building community takes forever. Yep, 100% for selfies. Yeah, Nick is the— Nick is the king at selfies. Uh, so is Roxy.

So is Roxy.

Um, yeah, Danny comes in. People are obsessed with likes, and if a tweet won't go viral or potential, afraid of tweeting it. Yeah, 100%. Um, What else? Uh, Chris, real talk, do you like Dots pretzels? Also shocker, Taylor discusses his own tweets. Shut up, Jason. Do you like Dots? I love Dots pretzels. They're not gluten-free though, so it hurts my tummy.

I like, I like the, the honey mustard ones.

Yeah, yeah, same, same, same. If I want to live a little bit and hurt my tummy a little bit, I get Dots pretzels.

They're great.

Um, let's see here, what else? Uh, how many people Have you reached out? How many people have you reached out to for a role? Because LinkedIn has limitations now to send requests or look up people. How have you gotten—

Oh, I think I had premium at the time. Like, I joined premium thinking it was like cooler or better than normal LinkedIn, which it's not, and that just kind of bypassed that. So I just reached out to everybody.

I think the, I think the bypass here is Always send a note in your request because people don't do that. Like, like, if you are not— if you are not messaging, like, if you don't message, if, if you— you are leaving a lot on the table if you, if you connect with Chris after this and you don't message him and say, hey, I saw you on GC2.0 today. Um, because like people want that context. Also, I'm really big on like paper trails with communication. In job search. So like if if I let let's say I messaged Chris and I wanted a job with Chris in month one, and I sent him a note, and he and I just even chit chatted just for like two or three messages back, and then five months later he posted a role. That chat history was already there, so then he can immediately remember me. That's why I'm so big on sending messages. Let's see here.

Da da da.

Yeah, yeah. Uh, if you are always connecting, sending messages, to stop doesn't matter. Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. You should be maxing out every week, in my opinion. Um, Dominic, it's good to see you. We still got people tuned in. This one is great. Um, yeah, Dominic's good to see you. Also, Dominic's coming on, uh, one of the Torque programming things, so excited to have you on, Dom. Um, so, so then let's get to the meat and potatoes of it. How did you get this job at TuxCare? Talk about it. I don't think we've gotten there yet.

No, we haven't. So that's a great question. And after 6 months, 5, 6 months of searching, this is where community comes full circle. I am friend— you know me, I speak in a lot of different various communities. Like, I've been a front-end developer for 30-plus years, but I speak at Java events, I speak at .NET events. Like, I try to spread myself as much as I can around the community, so I'm friends with people all over the world in the Python community, the Ruby community, Java, .NET, it doesn't matter. And I think that's a good thing to do too. Like, don't pigeonhole yourself just to one community that you're comfortable with. Like, if you're a frontend dev, don't just be a part of the frontend community. Like, there are amazing people all over the place. And because of that, I've made a huge impact. I mean, huge impact as far as I would say— I don't even know if I want to say huge impact. I don't know the impact I've made in the Java community or any of the like non-front-end community, because I'm not a Java developer, right? So I'm not doing talks on Java, but I know enough people in the Java community.

Mm-hmm.

And a buddy of mine hit me up last year who's— he's a developer advocate in the Java community, and he tagged me and somebody else in a DM, uh, and he said, hey, I saw this posting, this job posting you guys just posted this. I think Chris would be an amazing fit. You guys should have a conversation. Well, okay, great. That's fine. I already knew the hiring manager at the time, and he and I have crossed paths and we've talked before, so it was sort of a no-brainer. So I have the first interview with, uh, like HR person. And then what I did was I hit up friends of mine in the Java community that were very respected, and I said, hey, can you please— and they knew this other person, like everybody You know, every, you know, community, everybody knows everybody. It's like, can you please send letters of recommendation to the hiring manager for me? And it was no problem. Letters of recommendation were sent by higher-level people in the community space. It was recognized. I had one other interview with my skip, who was my current skip. And I mean, he didn't hire me for this, but I had a Red Wings shirt on. He's from Michigan. So he was like, you're hired, but we still had an interview. And that was it. That was it. I sent a resume, sent a couple things. It is what it is. But I landed that role because of the impact I've had in the community on the DevRel side, but also because of the community that I reached out to, to help push that over the line. And that is how I landed my role currently.

That's awesome. There's, there's so much to unpack here. And I see everybody in chat. Chat's very lively today. I love it. I love when the Chat's lively. Um, I think the first thing I want to call out— well, hold on, I want to get into the mental side of things. So obviously you were in month, what, 5 at this point? Probably.

Yeah.

I mean, I feel like, I feel like the job search is just getting off the mat every day, right? Like sometimes you don't want to send a DM, sometimes you don't want to send it an email. Can you just kind of— can you unpack that a little bit? Just kind of your thoughts, like where you were at mentally, and, you know, just kind of shed some light on it.

I was in a mess. I was in a very— I'll say I was in a fucked up situation.

Yeah.

Um, when I was at the previous company, and this is my fault, when I was setting up all the direct deposits and all that other stuff, I sent them all the information to deposit so much money into my savings. Unbeknownst to me, none of that was going— no, none of that was going into my savings. They never set it up. And my dumbass, I didn't check. I didn't check the credit union. I didn't check the savings account. So that's, that's my fault. But after a year, and after a year of being employed, there would have been close to $25K in my savings that would have helped during that layoff.

Yeah.

$0. So that's, that's number one. If you're setting up anything like that, always make sure that it's set up. Like, I know now I have my savings is set up. Tux cares, you know, putting the money in or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Always make sure your funds are set up properly. That was my, my bad, my mistake. Um, where were we going with this?

Uh, just mental, like sending the last— it's like sending— yeah. Sending another DM, getting off.

Yeah. So yeah, like, the depression is, is super insane. Like, I almost lost my house, my truck, my boat, everything I owned.

Sounds like I started a country song, to be totally frank with you. But yeah.

I know, right? I just don't have a dog that, you know, died. But everything— I was about to lose everything. And then just, just waking up, like, I didn't even want to get up and like live through, through the day because I know like one more day that doesn't progress means one more day of funds dwindling away.

Yeah.

But you have to do it. Yeah, like I said earlier, your job is to find a job. And if it takes a DM or an email or a phone call, like, you have to do it. And you have to be smart, you got to be creative, you got to be intuitive. Like, I, I knew that, okay, I have high game players in this community that value and respect me, maybe they can make a push for me with this person, right? Because I know this person respects these people here and will take their word for what it's worth. Just figuring out— it's like a game of chess.

Yeah.

Figure out the next move, and it might take you a second to do that. But you gotta figure out ways around it. And if it takes learning about who's friends with who and mapping shit out, do it because it'll— it could pay off for you. I love that. I love that.

Um, also another thing I want to call out too, and Chris, he and I chatted backstage, he said it wasn't planned, but I think like know your audience. Like now granted, Chris didn't know this, he rolled in with a Red Wings jersey, but like Know your audience. Like, you know, it worked out great for him. It's crazy how that small stuff works right now. Like, I, like, I'll never forget interviewing at Torque. Um, I interviewed with the CEO, Mike Morris. It's a 30-minute call, and we talked about playing hockey because he, he, his kids play hockey, and we found out his kids played at a Nashville tournament, same place I play.

Great.

And like, that was 20 minutes of the interview. And then he was like, well, what are your thoughts on community? And I told him, he was like, all right, sounds good.

Like, that was it.

So again, I think like you have to have the tech side, don't get me wrong.

Yeah.

But man, if you can like do research on a person and like, I mean, I'm not saying like go out and buy like a bunch of like hats for colleges people interview at, but But maybe you do. I don't know.

I don't know. You got, you got to get sneaky with it.

You got to get sneaky.

And the best part is, if you're not sneaky with it, it just happens. Like, I didn't know my skip, you know, was, was a Michigander, ex-Michigander, and was into, you know, Michigan sports and Detroit sports. I just showed up wearing a Red Wings shirt and we just started talking about Michigan. Now every time he and I are at an event together, we just talk about Michigan. And sports and Cedar Point. Like, like, that's what we do. So, and it's cool.

Well, cuz then like, you know, if, if, if I'm the guy interviewing Chris, I'm gonna leave the conversation and be like, man, I like that guy. And because you bonded over something that wasn't tech specific. And I think like, right, people get, I, I haven't heard the word LeetCode in a while, probably cuz of AI, but I mean, you can get so caught up in LeetCode and exercises and coding challenges. But man, sometimes at the end of the day, if you just research a person on LinkedIn and know where they went to college— like, I always tell people this, and I, I, I, when I was at Vaco and I started basically Torque at Vaco, in hindsight, I interviewed this guy. His name was Matt Driggers. Loved, loved that guy. And he— it's made such an impression on me. When I interviewed him, he did a ton of research on me. He was like, Hey man, seeing you've been at Vayco for like 9 years at this point, what's, what's kept you here? I see you went to South Carolina. What brought you from South Carolina to Nashville? Um, what are your thoughts? Like, I mean, he went through my background and still to this day it's been— I, and I've interviewed a lot of people, it still is the most inquisitive somebody's been. Now that's a little bit of a slight because now I just hire from the community, like Roxy. Roxy already knew me, so like, you know, That, that is what it is. But taking time to really know the person— huge, massive.

Yeah, if you can— no, on that note, real quick, if you can find out what their interest is and if you have that same interest, that, that lets you know that you're just not a robot, you know what I mean? Like, oh wow, this is actually a person. And if we do hire them, I can have conversation with this person because I can't have conversation with anybody else at work about this stuff because nobody else is into this shit.

Yeah, Amelia, good stalking.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, listen, essentially, yeah, it's not even stalking, it's research, it's homework. Like, it's your job that's on the line, it's your livelihood that's on the line. Like, do what you gotta do to get the fucking job.

Yep, absolutely. Uh, and Brianna, it's good to see you, girl. Thanks for, uh, thanks for hopping in. Um, uh, so question right here, listen, this is, this is a whole other conversation in and of itself.

Oh man, we could do a whole other You got this one.

So I will say this, look, so I obviously will plug Torque. That is spec— we are specifically fo— well, we have one of our many— our OG focus was hiring LATAM talent for US opportunities. We've obviously shifted to just all people all over the place. Do, do research, get on ChatGPT, get on Claude, look up niche job boards, especially try in your country to get in, you know, US opportunities. But I think at the end of the day, it's gonna come down to networking. I mean, I, I, it's, it's, it's, it's gonna come down to networking. Also, I made a post about this on LinkedIn this morning. Get on X. Listen, I know people have issues with X and I know we've already talked about it, but there are a lot of jobs being posted on X right now. And I don't know if it's my algorithm and what I'm engaging with, but that just goes to the fact, like, I, I, listen, I, if you don't wanna post, that's fine. But I think I would highly recommend getting on X and see who's hiring. Because I have seen, and I started my own X list. If you wanna follow it, I can link it in the show notes after this on my LinkedIn, but you can just go follow it and I just make a list of all the people who say they're hiring. So that's what I would do. Yeah. Any other thoughts on that?

No. No.

I wanna go back to a comment you made 'cause I think it's incredibly important and I don't wanna start wrapping up. without us talking about it is you said something along the lines of taking the time to know who's connected with who. What do you mean by that? How did you go about doing that?

That is a long, arduous process. Just like, you know me, You and I go way back.

Mm-hmm.

I travel all over the place, right? I'm all over the place. I try to be as connected to everybody I meet as possible because you never know who that next person is going to be. That next person could be a teammate. That next person can be a team lead, a hiring person, a really good friend that knows somebody up the chain. You getting out there, like networking community, like LinkedIn can tell you connections, all that cool stuff, right? That's fine and dandy, but it's pretty awkward if you just connect with somebody you don't know that knows this person over here that's higher up in the chain. So getting out there, doing stuff like this— meetups, conferences, coding coffees— like, coding coffees are hard nowadays. And like, yes, conferences have come back, They're not where they were pre-COVID. They're not, not in the US at least. Overseas in the EU, 110%, they've come back. Why? Depends on who you talk to. Everybody has different opinions. I have my own opinions as to why, you know, US conferences haven't come back, uh, to what they used to be. There's conferences that have gone away entirely that probably will never come back.

Wow.

Again, meetups are the same way. Like, so I run, you know, I own, run, try to run a meetup here in Detroit. Before I got hired at Tufts Care, I did a Code and Coffee, uh, and it was— I had full RSVPs. It was on a Saturday at a coffee shop downtown Detroit that we only hold our meetups in the city proper. No one showed up for a Code and Coffee. 2 hours, no one showed up at all. I was the only person there. Had a full RSVP list. No one showed up. I don't, I don't know how to get people to show up to that stuff. Uh, I spoke at another Detroit meetup one night, 5 people showed up. 20 people RSVP'd, 5 people showed up. Yeah, but going to those— and that sucks too because I remember meetups used to be just banging back in the day. We'd have 5 meetups a week in Detroit and they'd be packed. I used to run meetups.

Raleigh every week. every week and like 20 people would show up every week when I was in Raleigh in 2013. Nuts.

It's, it's, it is nuts. But going to conferences, going to meetups, doing stuff like this, having Zoom conversations or Google Meet conversations, coding coffees, virtual coding coffees, all of that shit matters because you never know who you're going to meet and who you're going to become friends with that's going to be connected to somebody else.

That's all activity, but it's I say this all the time, we as humans confuse activity with productivity. So we think submitting your resume 500 times is productive. That's just activity. You want to be productive and like the in-person conversations are where it's at.

Yeah! And that's true, right? That's extremely true because you just don't know where those are going to take you and you got to put the time in, you got to put the work in like I didn't build community overnight. Community wasn't built in a day. Like Rome wasn't built in a day. Developer relations isn't built in a day. Like it takes time and you gotta want to do it. You have to want to do it.

Yeah.

And if it's not an investment for you, then maybe community isn't your thing. Do your own thing.

Yeah.

But like, don't go yucking my yum because I put the work in and I sacrificed the time and money and the energy and and live out of hotels and airplanes and suitcases to build community. I don't even have to give a talk, a technical talk. I'll just go somewhere and just start bullshitting.

Yeah.

Like, and I do this at the bar. Like, I'll hear somebody talking about like front-end shit and I'll walk over like, oh hey, I heard you talking about this. Like, that's— you just hear those keywords. I mean, I'm a talker anyways, I'm an extrovert, but like, I don't suggest walking up to a stranger in a bar and start bullshitting with them. Because like people can get pissed off when you do stuff like that, but I'm a different story, uh, just because I'm a big dude and—

Got tattoos.

People tend not to— people tend not to mess with me. So I don't advocate just walking up to strangers. Please don't do that. But like having those conversations and being in person and going to events, it can make a world of difference. That's how I got my original, original first paycheck job with benefits, 2014, 2015. So I've been building on the web for 30 years. So I started really, really young. I got like a job with a paycheck without benefits in 2008, um, for like 12 years after I started building, writing code. So I got a job. Oh, and that was just through— I was working at Office Depot one time. I was working at Office Depot as a copy and print specialist.

Mm-hmm.

And I was still writing code, like freelancing, doing stuff on the side. Someone came in, They wanted some print work done and they were asking questions about the newest version of Windows. It might have been Vista. And we were having conversations. Come to find out that person ran a DevRel agency. I was like, well, I'm a developer— not a DevRel agency, a web developer agency, web development agency. I said, well, I'm a web developer and I'm looking for a job. They hired me as a contractor. So I worked with them for a few years. Then I went back to college after dropping out 4 times. You've heard this story. Um, but through GDI, Girl Develop It, which I don't even know if GDI is around anymore, the GDI— I was part of GDI Detroit. I was an original member of GDI Ann Arbor. Because of the people I met through GDI Detroit and GDI Ann Arbor, I got my co-op at DTE Energy. And then after my co-op was done, 2 semesters, they hired me full-time. And I've been on the ground running ever since. And that was like 2014, 2015, where I got a job with benefits and then just been going forward over that. But it all started from community and talking to people.

I love that, man. That was a great way to kind of wrap it up. That was great. Uh, I do agree, you are in the top 1%. You know, Aaron— I talked to Aaron Francis briefly about this on my pod a few weeks ago.

Shout out to Aaron. Aaron's good people.

Yeah, so good. Uh, basically, like, at the conferences, it's like, hey, I'm kind of looking what you got, right? You can't do that online. So again, I mean, I think, I think, I think that's where the magic happens. I think, I think, I think you got to go. I mean, again, I always go back to how was I successful as a recruiter? And I try to put that in perspective with, with normal job seekers. We used to have to interview 15 people a week. I'm not saying you need to meet 15 people a week. That was aggressive. If you want a really lofty goal, if you want to Zoom 15 people a week, you will expand your network and your traction incredibly fast. However, it's a lot of work, trust me. Uh, so I usually tell like 5 people a week, talk to somebody in person, lunch, coffee, Zoom, whatever. Go get involved in an online community, whether it's Torque, whether it's whoever, you know, Virtual Coffee, whether it's, you know, Danny's thing with CYC, whatever. Um, just get involved, show up online, and then go to at least one meetup a month in person or conference. Just get in person once a month. So that's kind of my high-level playbook, uh, amongst other things.

So, the goal of 15 people is not aggressive if we were talking pre-COVID, right?

Yeah.

When everybody had meetups, you could go to a meetup every single night, or you could go to one meetup for an hour and bop to the next meetup down the street, right?

Crazy.

You could meet 30 people a night or 40 people a night. Yeah. But now, like you said— and I remember I used to, you know, I've always sat in your sessions and heckled you and fucked with you. And pre-COVID, you always talked about the importance of, you know, meeting those— that amount of people as much as you can. But like, like you said, times have changed. That was pre-COVID. Post-COVID, I think 5 is a good number. But like, people are lazy. People don't want to go out anymore. And that's part of the reason why conferences aren't what they used to be in the United States.

Yeah.

We're lazy. We are lazy Americans and we don't want to go out. If we can get everything virtually, why do I need to go down the street to a meetup or go to a conference here when I can see it all online? Like, you don't, you don't build community in a camera. Sorry, you don't.

Oh, that was good. I'm gonna use that. You don't build community in a camera. Uh, my clipper video editor, make sure we put that in. Uh, just FYI, that was great.

All right, make some stickers. We can make some stickers.

I love that. Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that.

All right, David Neal, make us some stickers. Okay, I'm done.

There you go. I love it. All right, let's wrap it up here. Uh, can't confirm. Hey, listen, Emre, the first sign of getting over something is admitting to it. I'm proud of you. Um, all right, first question as we wrap up here, man. What's one tech tool, app, mobile app, software that you can't live without right now?

Twitter.

Yeah, yeah, Twitter. My wife's like, you're always on Twitter, and I was like, yeah, I know.

Well, it's part of the job for us though too. Like, I know Like I always say, I always work over 40 hours a week because I actually, I have to actively be online to see what's going on. If people are talking about the company, if I can reach out to people that are having issues with the product.

So this is another conversation I had with the head of creative and community for the DTC company Freaks of Nature. And he and I had a really good conversation around always being chronically online and like All people are like, Carl, you're always on your phone. You're always on your phone. He's like, I'm actually responding back to everybody who posts. Everybody. And every time I DM Carl on Instagram, he always gets back to me. So yeah, like I said, it is. It is a grind. But I agree. X X is X is my thing. I do have to say. I do have to say.

I would.

I would say Claude. Believe it or not, your boy. Your boy's trying to. Your boy's trying to become a super user in. So yeah, I love it. I love it.

Good. I mean, I would say like I love Screen Studio for one and DaVinci Resolve because I do my editing, like all my videos, even like my personal videos I do for my fishing YouTube channel. I think those are 2 apps, like I, I— 2 pieces of software I can't live without.

I love it. I love it. Uh, you mentioned it, but I want to know what's the very first job you ever got paid to do? Not in tech, but like you ever like Exchange hands of money?

McDonald's when I was 16.

Yeah, no way! That's awesome.

Yeah, 16 or 17. Yeah, I was, I was in high school, I think. No, I was, I was either a junior or a senior in high school, so 17, 18. But you know how I got that job?

How?

Community.

How?

Because the— because the— I mean, funny story, dude. The hiring manager, he was one of the hiring managers at the local McDonald's that a city I grew up in And he and I played softball on the same team as kids. So what did I do? I went home and I got the softball picture from when we were kids where we all lined up. I was like, see, hey, man, remember? He's like, oh yeah, Chrissy, I remember you. You're hired. So I've always started with community.

Yeah, dude.

Like, but I thought out of the box. I was like, oh, how could I get this guy to hire me, to remember me? I drove home and I got the, you know, the softball picture with the team picture. And I was like, see, look, here we are. You're here and I'm here. His name was Eddie, and he was like, oh yeah, Chris, I remember we played on, you know, uh, the dance club for, for the school and, uh, community. And I was like, yep.

So Jason always, always says, in the job search, you are the product and you have to sell yourself.

Yeah.

And you have to market yourself, and you have to get people's attention. So I love it, I love it. Um, Let me ask you this. When you, uh, when Chris was young, pre-tattooed Chris, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Paleontologist, like every other kid.

Is that like dinosaurs and stuff?

Fossils, yeah.

Do we believe dinosaurs are real?

100%, bud. Dude, 100%.

I'm telling you, man, dude, this— listen, I got to get to a meeting here soon, but I'm gonna tell you this. We— me and my wife have, have a friend Who does not believe in dinosaurs?

Are they a flat earther too?

No, not flat earth, but like literally she doesn't talk about it. She doesn't want to talk about it. Like gets her angry.

She was like, "They're they're all fake." I want to have a conversation with her.

Yeah, it's crazy. I egg this I I egg this person on so much. I'm like, "Dude, let's talk about dinosaurs," and she like. doesn't want to do it anyways.

Um, oh my gosh.

All right, what's, what's a career mistake you're oddly grateful for? If there— I know this is kind of a weird question, but is there anything looking back you're like, probably shouldn't have done that, but it worked out for the better?

Oh, um, uh, talking about tattoos in a corporate business environment, uh, interview. Okay, I probably shouldn't have done that, but the hiring manager loved my tattoos. And they hired me and it was a business casual company. Everybody was dressed up for work.

Okay.

So it actually worked. And I had, I had all my hand tattoos and my knuckle— well, part of my knuckle tattoos. Yeah. And, uh, they loved it. And I explained to them what, you know, the Stay True meant on my knuckles. Yeah. And, uh, he was in like a suit and he was like, I love it, Chris. I love it. A week later, I got a job offer.

That's awesome. Uh, Pepsi or Coke?

Uh, depends on how you're serving the Pepsi or the Coke.

Okay, you're true. You're true.

Like, I'm a pop drinker. I'm a pop drinker. So like McDonald's Coke is top tier.

Elite Pepsi.

Pepsi in a bottle is better than Coke in a bottle, but Coke in a can is better than Pepsi in a can. But if you're an OG Detroiter like me, Detroit, you're drinking Faygo. Whoop whoop!

I don't even know what that is. Anyways, that's great. I love that, Jeff.

Does that answer your question?

All right, last question. If I told you tomorrow you, I would pay you the same if not more, and but you could not do tech, what would you do? I think I know the answer to this, but what would you do?

Like what? Um, I'd be, I'd be a professional bass angler. Yeah, that's my goal. That's my goal right now. Like, you know, my father-in-law, like, yeah, we've had this conversation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, it's crazy. He's nuts. He like just goes out and catches like the entire lake just randomly. Yeah.

I just got my boat detailed yesterday. I put new batteries in it. I got new electronics. The season is happening, man. The bite is on. So hopefully, uh, next couple years I'll move up.

So obviously my father-in-law is an old head and he was kind of like dogging on like the new radar technology where you could like just drop a lure over. Do you use that new radar technology? Supposedly it's like a— it's supposedly it's like a video game, supposedly.

Yeah, they, yeah, they call it playing video games. But yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what you said. Every professional or anybody that's doing it seriously or in a club, they have— it's called Active Target or LiveScope. And yeah, I have it on my boat. I just, I just got it installed. So like, you can, you can target the fish, see where they're at. Like, it's hard to see what you're looking at on the graph, but like, you can see them and you can cast out there 50, 60, 70 feet, and then you can watch your lure in the water column.

And then— Yeah, yeah.

Just, just play with them a little bit and they— you see them swimming and you zing. and just set the— set it up, dude.

That's crazy.

That's pretty dope.

That's crazy. Uh, all right, biggest piece of career advice, right? Guidance counselor 2.0, um, centered around, you know, career stuff. What would be your biggest piece of career advice if you can go back and tell young Chris anything?

Your job is to find a job. Get up, do it, put the work in. Don't stop the hustle because the hustle won't stop for anybody. You got to do it. So that's, that's my advice. Don't, don't take them— if you can't, if you have the means to take some time off, cool, do it. But like Your job is to find a job, and you need to do everything at your your expense to do that. As long as it's safe.

I love that. Sweet. All right, y'all. Well, again, please go connect with Chris. He's a fantastic follow. I will link his socials on my LinkedIn on the LinkedIn comments. And y'all have a go. And Chris, thank you, my friend. Stay on so I can say bye to you backstage. But y'all have a great rest of your week. Again, Torque Happenings. We got resume reviews tomorrow with Will Klein, one of our ambassadors.

And Will's good people. Will's good people.

And then we got Yappy Hour as always on Friday. So y'all have a good one. We'll see y'all in the Torque Discord. Peace.

Peace.