Finding a Job Through a Friend and a DM w/Andrew Gilliland

What's going on, everybody? Good morning. Happy hump day. You know, I, I, you know what's, you know what's crazy? Time is— and Andrew, I don't know if you can attest to this— time is very weird when you get into the business world. Like, like people are like, yeah, yeah, we just spoke yesterday. It's like, no, no, that's been like 4 weeks ago. Like, like it just feels like time just flies by when you're like working a 9 to 5. What are your thoughts on that? Yes or no?

I think time flies in general.

Okay, all right, that, that fair, fair, fair.

I had, I had, uh, uh, so, uh, um, uh, I guess a, a birthday year mark. I don't, I don't look into that big. If some people like, oh, 30, but I had, I had the 4-0 this year.

Dude, you're 40? I mean, you look great, dude.

You look great. Those compliments, that's what's keeping me coming back.

It's those traps, dude.

It's those traps. You know, I try to exercise a little bit, um, but, uh, yeah, I had that. It's just like, man, I like— yesterday I was 20. I felt like it was just like, yeah, um, and sometimes in my mind still I'm like, I'm like a little kid, like I'm building Legos and stuff like that.

Oh yeah, like I, like I'm about to— we're having our 3rd kid in December and probably January, most likely. Like, thanks. I should not be having kids. Like, literally, like, I just, I feel like I'm like 21. Like, I don't know what I'm doing.

I'm just But that is— you, you are— you have the ultimate responsibility when you're a parent. Like, I have not done that yet. Sure, I do want to.

Yeah.

Um, but it's, it's terrifying. It's, it's scary. And I, I have mad respect. All my friends, most of my friends have kids. Uh, you know, I haven't done that yet, but it's just like, that is the ultimate responsibility. That's—

Yeah, it's— and it just makes— it just makes— it makes your days go by so fast. Like, I was helping my wife yesterday, like, getting the kids to bed. It's just like, like it just, I don't know, man. I'm kind of in this weird state where like, I feel like days are just flying by. It's just flying by. Um, anyways, we're not here to talk about days flying by. Uh, we're here to talk about Andrew and his job search and his career, which I'm super pumped about. Um, Andrew's part of the Torque Discord. He is a Torque member. So Andrew, I appreciate you, um, for that. I wanna give kind of a quick rundown, uh, a few things here. First off, say hey.

Hey.

Hey, love, love you. No, not you, Andrew. The rest of the people, say hey. Say hey. Would love to hear from you. This is a networking event, um, and, uh, you know, we really want people to connect with others. Um, you know, go connect with Andrew. You know, I tell folks time and time again, connect with every single speaker that I've had on the show and connect with every single person in the audience that comments. You're going to have a pretty tremendous network. Which I will argue with you is pretty much the Torque Discord. So like, jump into the Torque Discord, you, you, you won't be disappointed. Um, go ahead.

I was gonna say, so Chris Becker, uh, he— I, I popped into your guys' Discord and I think I searched Illinois, and he's actually local to where I am. And I got him— he's— he shows up to our meetups. No way! Yeah, no way!

Yeah, people connected, man.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Um, so, uh, also, uh, so again, I don't know how I said that. All right, do this. All right, so, uh, Appwrite. I'm an Appwrite hero. Me and my boy Jace Torres, Appwrite heroes. Uh, go check them out. Great product, great team. Um, I don't know what they do really because I'm not a developer, but I like their people and I like their branding and it's pretty. So you should go check them out. Uh, it's the best sales pitch ever. Uh, listen, we just rebranded our community site. It's pretty, it's sleek, it's got like It's nice. It's very nice. It looks nice. Uh, you should look at it. It's great. Um, it's got all of our events on it. It's, it's fantastic. So you should check it out. Uh, torque.community. Um, also, if you want to be kept in the loop, um, on when we go— when I go live, text, text live. Like, this is actually my number. Also, I've had a lot of people lately with my travels like, dude, I didn't know you were in my town. And I'm like, I, I'm on social 24/7. I don't know what else I can do. If you want to know when the Torque team, either myself or the Torque community, is in your town, shoot me a text. Just say hey. Just text that number, say hey. Um, we— I will, I will do a better job of whenever I travel to send a text out to get people to lunches or dinners or whatever. So, uh, shoot me that. Shoot me a text. Uh, we dropped some new Torque merch. If you want some, buy it. It's at cost. We don't, we don't profit anything. Shirt's like $18. To be honest, in this economy, we're really giving you a deal. So check that out. Cool. Let's see here. Just all the people tuned in this morning: Ricardo, Naz, Chris, Chris, Sebastian, Kelly. We got some folks from the Torque Discord. Will, former guest on the show. Angelo. Let's see here. Mark, it's good to see you. Chris, hard agree on the Discord. Thank you, Will. There he is. There's Jason. Hi, Jason. It's good to see you. Torque Bjorn, we appreciate you, buddy. I appreciate this.

Cool.

Awesome. All right, Andrew, let's get to people that want, man. Who are you? What do you do? And we'll go from there.

I am a full-stack engineer at Elevate. They are a kind of wordy title, but they If you look at their website, you're like, what do these guys do? They're a data-driven solutions, uh, company that helps strategy, uh, for sports, entertainment, and consumer brands. Um, and, uh, specifically they have a tool that, uh, helps, uh, with ticket management, uh, consumer insights, uh, venue insights, some other things like that that they've done. But, uh, they have a whole other gamut of things that's outside of the whole technology spectrum I love it. But, uh, what about you, dude?

Tell me about you. Like, how'd you get into tech? Let's start there. You gave me the quick— I told you you have to repeat yourself. Andrew and I were catching up backstage. I said, this is great, but you're gonna have to repeat everything. So let's start, man. How'd you start? What'd you do beforehand?

What, what are you drinking there? What's that?

Spindrift.

Spindrift.

Do you do Spindrift?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got, uh, well, I got, uh, I got a little cooler down here. I got, uh, Waterloo right now.

Waterloo's great. So we can get into this. This is a little icebreaker. Do you have like— I'm like really, really, really big into like the soda water world. Do you have, uh, like a favorite go-to? Like Spindrift isn't like really my favorite so far. They have good flavors. They have this and like a strawberry lemonade that's like— but there's like no sugar in it. It's just, it's kind of like, it's like 1% juice. It's so good. Um, my go-to is typically Waterloo.

Waterloo is a solid brand, but I'll say Topo Chico is the like upper— it's too spicy.

It's too spicy for me. It's like too bubbly, man. Like, I want to like drink my water, enjoy it. When I drink Topo Chico, I feel like I'm about to blow up.

It is. It does have a hard seltzer. Yeah, carbonation is high. Yeah, but, uh, like, yeah, you can only have maybe like one of those. I, I down like way too many a day. Like, I'm—

What do you think of Mountain Valley? I had a Mountain Valley sparkling water the other day. I feel like it was a— it was, it was more of a duller sparkling But it was still fantastic. You had Mountain Valley?

I've seen it. I have not tried it because— do they have flavors or is it only just—

I think it's— I think it's only— it's only sparkling. Only sparkling. Liquid Death. Have we tried Liquid Death? We're getting way off topic here. Do you like Liquid Death?

Um, I, I do. I, I feel like it's sometimes the flavor is a little—

I don't like the flavors. The flavors are disgusting. Liquid Death, if you ever watch this, y'all's branding is top-notch. Your flavored soda water is terrible. Yeah, I do, I do like the, the just a standard bubbly one though. Standard.

Yeah, the branding is really good.

All right, so where'd you start, man?

So, um, gosh, this was 2018. Um, I was, uh, working as a personal trainer and a bartender living down on the Gulf Coast of Florida, and I had stopped personal training For a little bit that fall and decided to start learning how to do web development. Um, a little bit— I told you this also— I, I talked to the restaurant that I worked at that I bartended. Um, there was a tech recruiter was sitting at my bar and I was talking to her. She was from Atlanta and I was like, if you're gonna get in technology now, uh, what, what would you learn? So I picked her brain, we're chatting, and She said Ruby on Rails, which is wild for the record. I feel like, yeah, that was possibly the kind of the down— like, I think Ruby on Rails was like—

because what year was it again?

2018. I don't know.

Ruby always resurfaces, I feel like, every like 4 to 5 years. So maybe it was on an uptick. You know what it is? I remember recruiting on a few Ruby clients at Vaco during that 2017, '18, '19 stint. So yeah. She's— yeah, yeah. I don't know why it always resurfaces.

And I— yeah, I never worked in Ruby.

Um, yeah, that's just a wild thing to say as a recruiter to somebody who's working at a bartender job getting into tech. I would never say Ruby ever, but in 2018, what are you— fair.

Um, but yeah, so I, I started learning Ruby. I got on Codecademy and I was checking it out and I was like, whoa, whoa, the HTML, the CSS, JavaScript, that's all in here. Like I don't know what this stuff really does, so I need to start from the basics. So, um, and then I, I just want to start building websites. Like, honestly, it was just— it was a— it was a scratch, an itch I needed to scratch. That's what I need to say. Um, and I, I was just always curious, you know? Like, I'm old enough that I saw the internet happen.

Yeah, same.

Um, and, uh, I was like, just how do you— how do you build this stuff without using a site builder or anything like that? So I just started digging in. I really got into Udemy courses and then got on YouTube a ton. And I like to say I'm a community-taught developer.

There you go.

I didn't make this content. Somebody else made this content. And if I ever meet— and I've met some of the people that made the courses that I have taken, I always say thank you. I met Kenzie Dodds. Jason Langsdorf, um, Scott Talinsky. I took him out to breakfast one time I was out in Denver, uh, because I was like, dude, you owe— I owe you my career. For real?

Him and—

yeah, well, him and Wes. Like, I feel like I started listening to Syntax back in 2018, and when I started— when I started listening to it, um, I didn't— like, it was just all gobbledygook. I was like, I didn't understand half the stuff they're talking about.

Yeah, yeah, I don't either.

And I just, I kept putting it in my ears. Yeah, you know, you don't— it's just developers just make—

It's a foreign language. It's like learning French.

Yeah, it just, it's a foreign language. And so I just kept listening to them, start spawning off with some other podcasts. But yeah, him and Wes Boss. Um, I was getting on, uh, Level Up Tutorials to take courses and things like that, um, that Scott made. So I, um, but yeah, I, I say thank you to all those people that have taught me over the years because I am Super appreciative on that.

How, how'd you get your first job in tech?

So, all right, um, I was living down in Florida at that time, moved back to— I'm from Illinois originally, that's where I am currently— moved back this area. And so I, I was like, all right, at that point, that was 2021, 3 years of span I'd been learning all this stuff. It's like I, I tried doing some freelancing and I was like, ah, trying to do marketing websites for people that want to pay $500. I'm like, I'm not— I can't make a go with this. Um, I'm, I'm just not much, much of a marketing salesy guy. That's not really, um— I just want to learn this stuff. I want to get paid and just keep learning. And so I was like, I just need to find a job in this. Um, and I was hitting LinkedIn, uh, hitting up LinkedIn for job postings, and I was submitting applications and, you know, working on my resume, just working on projects. And nothing. And that was a time when everybody's like, oh, it's so easy to find a tech job. I wasn't finding a tech job. Nobody was responding back unless it was like really low-paying things that were just free for us. And so I was like, I got to try something different. And at that time, I'm sure I've probably seen some of your content. I feel like you crossed off— you've been on Syntax. I think you've been on React Native Radio. Those are like probably my 2 bigger podcasts I listen to all the time. And, uh, I was like, he, he's got some stuff, he's putting down some info, I'm picking it up. Um, so I was like, I gotta hit the ground, like, I gotta see what is actually in my area and talk to people, meet them face to face and say, hey, I'm Andrew, how are you? I'd like to work for you.

Um, I'd like to work for you.

Um, but so State Farm's headquarters is 5 minutes down the road from where I live. Um, they weren't even— I knew I'd even apply there because like they're not even gonna look at me. Um, so I looked at some smaller agencies in town, um, and I was like, all right, this is potentially a better way I can get in front of a human to talk to instead of just submitting.

Yeah.

The interwebs. And, um, but, uh, yeah, there was some marketing agency in town, did kind of marketing websites. One of my buddies had mentioned, he's like, hey, have you checked them out? And I was like, no, I hadn't even checked them out. So I applied. I met their vice president. And we had a great conversation. It was like, he was picking my brain, I was gonna pick his brain, seeing what the company worked on and things like that. And at that point, I was willing to do just about— like, if you just want me to do HTML and CSS, awesome. Like, I would have had a riot doing that. And I still would have a riot doing that.

Sure. You know, Not—

and not to say those aren't programming languages, because some people like to have that debate. But anywho, um, he's like, hey, you should check out this other place in town. And so he nudged me over to some other business. As soon as I got done with that chat with him, I went home, applied to that place. They did more kind of custom application development.

Okay.

Um, and not so much the marketing website stuff. So as soon as I got home, applied there. Got a response email and then just went after it. I was very fortunate. Didn't have like a LeetCode style interview process. It was all right. First we had a meet and greet.

Just like a normal human being interview.

Yeah, just like, hey, let's, let's just talk. Let's, let's see.

That's great. It's, it's amazing what those type of interviews can do. I know.

And it's like, hey, you're a nice person. I want to work with you too.

Cool.

Yeah. So that led to— gosh, it was— that was— I met with them on a Friday and then they're like, all right, here's this take-home assessment. We want you to build this little project. It's a full-stack application. Node. Actually, they said you pick your tech stack, but—

Oh, nice.

They needed a full-stack application, frontend, backend, data. So I was like— they're like, all right, well, we can give you till next Friday. I was like, no, I can get— I'll— we'll get it done by Tuesday. Um, I was like, after I got off the call, oh gosh, maybe I was— maybe I was a little too—

Right, right.

Uh, jumping the gun. But that night I was actually leaving to go up to Milwaukee because I went to see Hall and Oates.

Nice.

On that Saturday. So Angelos, he's in here, he knows.

Yeah.

We've been talking, Yacht Rock. We got to, uh—

I love some yacht rock.

Oh gosh, I—

yeah.

Um, that was actually one of their last— I, I wasn't say their last show, but one of their— because they broke up, I think, that next— later that year, the next year.

Oh wow.

Hall and Oates broke up, man.

That's crazy.

It's sad. So got that job at that agency. Uh, like, I, I— well, first off, yeah, I just worked my butt off as soon as I got back from that concert. Like, that Sunday and that Monday, like, it was just cranking. Very little strips. sleep. Like, I was stressing myself out and I don't get stressed very often.

Yeah.

And I was like, I got to do this. This is my shot. And so, I just worked my butt off, got this thing working, showed up. It was a React, Node, MongoDB full-stack app. And walked through it. Like, I just had to brain dump this onto their lead tech. And like, it was just— All right, explain what you did and how you did it. And, uh, so yeah, I ended up getting that job.

So let me, let me ask you this. What would be, what would be your biggest piece of advice for junior devs then? Like, you've done it. You were bartending, weightlifting, weight training, personal training.

I was, I was getting other people to weight train.

Yeah, you get other people weight train. You, you moved to back to a city I would argue is probably still not a huge bustling tech thing, tech scene. And you still found a job. If, if there's one thing you want to get across to folks based off what you just said, what would it be?

Yeah, look, look at some unconventional spaces.

Um, like what?

Look at those agencies, look at those small— like, reach out to, you know, there's a lot of, I'd say, marketing branding agencies. They need people that know how to do websites. Okay. Oh yeah, like this This application, like this, this little business, um, this was kind of niche. I don't feel like you find very many kind of like app development companies. Like they had maybe 15 people and they did custom application development. Like that was pretty rare to find. But if you do some research, do some homework, find some smaller places because they'll— they will take shots on people that don't have that.

I agree.

That experience.

Yeah. I feel like, I feel like the general sense, this is kind of what I spoke on in Raleigh, like just with big tech. I feel like people just think, I need a job, I need to go work at a big company. Like, I think that's just like the how humans work. And it's like, no, like Susie Smith and Keith, you know, so-and-so down the road that has a small mom-and-pop marketing agency. They need help for a web developer, like that, your, your chances are gonna be way higher there. Yes, is it not gonna be probably all the bells and whistles and TDD and all those, you know, formalized processes, but it's gonna get you in the door. Yeah. So I totally agree with you on that.

And, and yeah, like, I mean, it was, um, I was very fortunate because actually that company had, uh, did a lot of work for this ag agtech company local in the area. And, um, they did so much work for them that within 3 months after being there, our company got acquired. Um, and so we were merged into this agtech company.

And then all of a sudden, boom. See, like, that's what I'm saying. Like, if you get somewhere and put yourself in position, like, that could happen. Or you could meet so many people at the company you're consulting for in the small agency where if they like you, they could try to bring you on.

Mm-hmm.

So you just gotta get— you gotta get in the stream, right? You gotta get in the mix. I don't know how else to say it. Like, you just kind of gotta get into it, um, and not sit on the sidelines. Yeah.

And like, get in front of somebody, like face to face, like not this buffer of digital medium of the internet, you know?

Um, yeah.

And, and like, that's just more my feel. That's more my fit. Like, I've You know, I, I don't know. I've, I've never aspired to work for a FAANG company. They probably wouldn't even look at me.

I—

it would just get brushed away if I put my application in. So sure, I, I want to work for people. Um, honestly, that, that, that's what I want. I work for people, not companies. And that's how I look at it.

Oh, I like that. People, not companies. All right, so, uh, talk about— so obviously started your career. Talk about any pivoting You know, I had a great live yesterday with Danya. We talked kind of about pivoting and looking where things are going. Have you been doing the same thing? What are some learnings that you've had kind of throughout your career? Because you've been doing this now for what, 7, 8 years now professionally?

4.

4.

4. Gotcha.

I took pre-algebra in college.

No, no, no. That's, I mean, I, I think a lot of people think I've been doing this longer. Um, and, uh, no, it's just, um, I feel like, yeah, no, I was— I'm very fortunate, very grateful for every opportunity that somebody's taken on me. But also too is when you get something thrown on your lap or an opportunity comes, like, yeah, just say, hey, I, I don't know this, but I'm gonna give it my best shot. I love it. And, uh, that, that, that little agency, the first thing they threw at me was some— I had to work on some PHP, uh, backend stuff. Never touched it. And like, I was like, all right, we'll figure it out. Um, and then not long after I was there at the agency, they're like, hey, you want to try some mobile development? I'm like, I've never touched it, but I'll try it. I'll give it a shot.

Do you, do you think, do you think it would behoove— that's like my only big word I ever use— do you think it would behoove, benefit folks to actually start in kind of an agency world to kind of get thrown at a lot of different things to see what they like.

Yeah, no, I think that definitely— like, I, I, I love that. Just be thrown in the deep end. Like, that's, that's how you learn the fastest. It's uncomfortable. It's very uncomfortable.

Yes.

I felt like an idiot. And this is something I try to live by, is I try to be the dumbest person in the room, um, and just soak up knowledge. Just ask questions, learn stuff. Um, but yeah, get thrown into a lot of different stuff, a variety of things. kind of spread into different things. Like, okay, I like this more, I like this more. Um, but, um, but also just that attitude of just like, you know, if when people get put on something, just like, oh no, I just want to do this thing. Like, yeah, I don't know, maybe, maybe you don't know until you tried it.

Like, yeah.

Um, and like, even as I say I don't aspire to go to a film company, maybe I could if maybe one day if it was ever an opportunity. And then maybe like, oh yeah, maybe that was fun, I should try it.

Yeah. Um, all right, so 4 years professionally. What made you jump to the next role?

Um, so gosh, last, last year, um, the ag tech company I was at, they started doing some reorgs. They did a reorg and some layoffs were happening, and the, the company culture started shifting very drastically, and a lot of the projects were getting kind of just getting dismissed. And things were— they were in the midst of figuring things out. And I was like, I saw other engineers being let go. And I was like, I need to start looking. I need to be proactive on this.

Yeah.

Before it happens. And so we lost— we lost some good people. And some people brought a lot to the table. And I was like, it doesn't matter. Sometimes you can work hard and do all those things, but still you can be just that, you know, number of attrition, um, when the hammer comes down.

Yeah.

So, um, I started looking, uh, and yeah, I spent some time last year looking and trying to figure out really what I wanted. Um, and then it wasn't— so it took some time. Uh, it wasn't until this year, at the beginning of this year, around later February, uh, a role came up here locally. Another local smaller agency. Yeah. And they were hiring and they needed a senior full-stack engineer. And so went through the interview process there.

How did the interview process differ from like the second time to the first time? Like the second time on a job search to the first time on the job search? Like, was there like, do you feel like it was easier or?

It was— I mean, there's, there's anxiety. Like, I, I feel like you never, uh, fully get away from that kind of like, oh, I have no idea what they're gonna throw at me. Um, I feel like the first kind of meet and greet interviews, um, when I get— when I get one-on-one with somebody, I feel like I'm able to, um, communicate a little better than if, you know, I'm in a big crowd of people.

Yeah.

So I feel like that's, that's my time just to be, you know, say who I am, what I'm about. But then the tech interviews kind of that— I mean, there's a lot of, a lot of anxiety because you don't know what they're gonna throw at you. I mean, you don't know if they're gonna be like, hey, do bubble sort. And I'm like, oh, no, I don't. Or like, how would you build this, like, you know, a real life application? So But it was, I'd say both of them, they were very informal. Because they were both smaller, smaller places. You know, the tech interview wasn't like algorithm heavy. They kind of wanted more, the second one was more about, okay, how would you architect an application?

Sure.

And with, you know, from your infrastructure, frontend, backend, things like that. And then, you know, just kind of lay it out and, um, talk about it.

So, yeah. Um, okay. Um, so talk about, you know, kind of the title for this show is Finding a Job Through a Friend and a DM, right? So I talked about kind of early part of your career. I want to get kind of the meat and potatoes here over the last 15 minutes before we kind of dive into rapid fire and then wrap it up. Uh, how'd you find this last job? Talk about the power of getting involved. Talk about the LinkedIn strategy too. Let's kind of talk about those 2 things and kind of, yeah, let's start there. Let's start there.

I'll say a LinkedIn strategy. I don't have one. I am lacking in that way. I would kind of like one. I need like a, as someone that was a personal trainer, I need like a trainer to help get me in that rhythm.

But Jason, Jason, I, so I've pitched this idea. Jason, if you're watching, he's gonna roll his eyes. I have come, I've thought of idea of like, like a 75 Hard.

Mm-hmm.

But for job search where it's like, these are like 12 things you need to do every single day to be successful. So it is on the list. It is on the list. We'll probably roll it out here at the end of the year, beginning of next year. But yes, you saying that validates my idea.

No, it, I, I think like, cuz that just doesn't come natural to me just to, to, I won't say word vomit, but to put stuff out on online. I feel like I, I'm kind of more of a, An in-person person. So that's where I decided, uh, to start some meetups.

Yeah.

And this actually started when I used to live in Pensacola, Florida. Uh-huh.

See, I knew he was listening. I knew he was listening. See, Jason validated my idea. It's almost like I know what I'm talking about. Anyways, keep going, Andrew.

Um, but, uh, so when I was listening to these podcasts, I was hearing about, oh, they're talking about this meetup here and this meetup there, this meetup there. And I'm like, I get on Meetup, I sign up, and I'm like, there's nothing here.

Yeah, I can't imagine there's a lot in Bloomington. Where? Bloomington, Illinois, right?

Bloomington, Illinois. Yeah.

So yeah, I can't imagine there's like a bustling Meetup scene in Bloomington, Illinois.

No, but even down in Pensacola, Florida, which was a little bigger, um, there was nothing there. Um, and you know, I was like, oh, do I need to drive to Atlanta? Do I need to drive to New Orleans? Do I need to drive to—

Would you have done that?

I would have. Yeah, I, I even when I first moved back here, I was like, I'm ready to start driving up to Chicago. I was, I was even looking up the stuff you were doing. I was like, I'm about ready to start heading out to Nashville like once a month. Um, and yeah, in Nash— Nash-tucky, it's a fun time. Oh man, I've had some good times there. Um, but, uh—

Do you remember those times?

It was a little wobbly. Yeah. Um, but, um, So down in Pensacola, this is before I was even working in software, um, or programming, that I started a meetup. And because I was like, my coworkers were tired of hearing me talk about JavaScript or CS. They didn't care, you know. The people I was bartending with or when I was personal training clients, they didn't want to— they want to hear me talk about the nerdy stuff. So I was like, I'm just gonna start a meetup here.

So you started—

I just started one. I didn't know what I was doing. I mean, that's—

It was a coffee shop first? Was it a restaurant? Was it a lunch? Was it a dinner? What was kind of strategy there?

The first, um, so as somebody that had worked in restaurants, I knew don't go to a sit-down restaurant because it's— yes, Chris is correct in that. Um, but which is crazy because University of Illinois is right where he lives, and that is like one of the top computer science schools in the country.

Is it really?

And yeah, it's one of the— like, we had so many, uh, University of Illinois, uh, graduate interns at that company, uh, Precision Planting, the ag tech company I worked at.

Oh, wow.

And, uh, they were— we just had— and I loved it because I was like, I get to pick their brains. I, I don't have to go to this college.

Yeah, you get a BS. Yeah, yeah, you get a computer science degree by association. So was it a topic you— so, so yeah, so sorry, so finish it. So where, where, where'd you start it at?

So, okay, I didn't want to go to restaurants because I was like, they're going to shuffle you in and out, a server is going to get pissed if you're sitting there hogging their table, not moving. So I was like, let's do a brewery. Um, okay, there's, you know, you can sit, kind of leisure. They're usually chill spaces. They're always— I mean, breweries are always super cool and hip, you know. It's, it's very hip. And, uh, um, even if you don't drink, you can still go there and have an all right time. So actually, fun fact, I don't drink, um, anymore.

Uh, yeah.

And so some people like, oh, why do we have to have brews? I'm like, You don't have to drink.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't drink anymore either. Um, thanks, Whoop.

Yeah, but, um, so, um, yeah, I started doing breweries and like probably within a few months, like, we were getting— I was without even really trying, just doing meetup, like no other marketing, no social media, and I was getting probably about 15 to 20 people.

No way!

And these people are just like, oh dude, like, thanks for doing this, like Where do you work at? I'm like, I, I'm a personal trainer and bartender. I'm just learning this stuff. So I just got a—

That's insane, man. That's so cool.

Um, so it was just, you know, like everybody's still doing it. Uh, so that was down in Pensacola. I moved back up to, uh, this area and I started one up here.

Okay.

Um, now this is— that was pre-2020. Now post-2020. So I started this.

Have you seen a difference in people not wanting to come out?

Yeah, it started like— I mean, I, I put this, uh, our meetups at a brewery. It's like in the center of town. Um, college students can walk there. There's 2 universities in town, Illinois State University and Illinois Wesleyan University. The kids can walk there if they want to, and we've got a good, good bit of college kids that show up. Um, and then, uh, I've reached out some recruiters at State Farm and said, hey, we've got this meetup. Um, we've got You know, college kids coming there, they're asking questions. Bring some of your engineers here so they can just talk to them, um, and make those connections. So we, we got some State Farm engineers, um, but yeah, when I first started off, it was— I mean, there's been maybe— there had been a couple of the first ones where I had nobody. I just sat there on my laptop and I was like, all right, if nobody shows up—

Hey, I love the honesty, dude. I mean, even, even I've had some— when I was in Denver, Dads in Tech, we threw a, a meetup. There was like 5 or 6 dads that RCP'd, and Trey, my boy Trey, showed up. That it. It was just— it was like me trading Jason. But like, that's okay. Like, it's not like— it's, it's, it's, it's always gonna be a positive, you know what I'm saying? Like, you're either gonna invest in 2 people really well, or then you have 20 people and then they can all make friends. Yeah.

And like, I— if even one person shows up— so yeah, maybe only had like one or two of them where— that's probably one where nobody showed up. But then there's only one person, dude. Yeah, exactly. Quality over quantity. Like, I, I don't care. Like, I, I know this area that I live in, like It's not gonna get, um, it's like your good neighbor State Farm.

Um, very good stuff.

And, uh, but, uh, you know, I, I get very focused and honed in. Like, I, I'm— I take my phone, I throw it— like last night, so we had our happy hour last night, our meetup, and, um, I threw my phone in my bag. I got home, I was like, oh shoot, I didn't leave my phone there. Like, because I just get so engaged. Like, I'll— that's awesome on one person. And even when I was down at Render, I was like, sometimes I got zoned in. Like, one day I might have like 3 people I've had really solid conversations with, and, uh, I'd rather have that than, you know, like just spread out, have very little kind of idle conversations amongst—

Yeah, yeah, agreed, agreed. So, so this last job came from the meetup?

So one of my co-organizers, uh, and a previous coworker, um, he said, reach out to my boss, um, shoot him an email. And so that just— he's building out a team. He didn't have all these positions listed on their website. So yeah, since, since then I've learned I don't go through LinkedIn to apply. I go directly through the websites. Um, I try to find a person, a human being, and like get their email and contact and say, hey, I applied. Just curious, you know, what, what are some of the things you're looking for in this applicant and things like that? And I try to align like technology stacks, like definitely. I'm— I've learned a little bit there is like, all right, you know, some recruiter— I had a recruiter one time, I had a $300K+ job. in Golang. And I'm like, did you even read my LinkedIn profile? I don't have anything about Golang on there. Like, as much as that'd be cool, like, I, I just like, let's, let's align all this stuff up, you know, um, so it works out best for everybody. So—

Question, question. So, uh, Nas comes in here. I've always wanted to do the same thing, to do a meetup gathering in my town, but it's a small town, so I don't know. What would be your— what would be your advice for her?

I mean, maybe find the next biggest town, uh, that's nearby. I mean, and that's like, you guys, you gotta be honest with yourself. Like, are you willing to possibly travel somewhere to do this? If you have the availability to travel, things like that. Like, I mean, so this Bloomington and Normal, uh, 2 cities kind of smushed together, we're about 150K. And like, if I get 10 to 15 people at our meetups, I'm ecstatic. I'm, I mean, so Um, I don't know what size of place you're living in, so try to find like a smaller city possibly to host them at. Um, because yeah, you know, if I was in a town of— I grew up in a town of 2,500. If I was there, like, I wouldn't even bother trying to have one because yeah, you're probably not—

Well, it's interesting too, if, uh, Naz, if you go back, uh, to the last conversation I had with Kevin Griffin, um, Kevin Griffin is in Northern VA. When he started his like meetup thing, he would travel to like Richmond or he would travel to like Raleigh. Like he would drive to go be a part of these communities because he knew like this is what's gonna take him further in his career. And he specifically has said, if I did not do this, I would not be where I'm at today. So yeah, my, my biggest encouragement is like, You know, even if it's an, even if it's 30, 45-minute drive, like, and, and you're passionate about it, like, do it, do it. Cause it'll benefit you. Um, so Andrew, you were interviewing with 2 companies at one time, right?

That is correct.

Talk about your strategy there, right? Cause that can be a little unnerving to people and trying to keep up and trying to finesse it. Do you have any thoughts on there?

Um, it was unnerving. It was, yeah, it was a lot. I was working and going through 2 interview processes. Um, the, the first interview process started from a DM from a recruiter on LinkedIn.

Okay.

Um, and, um, saw kind of alignment of tech stack. He was internal to a company and, um, he gave me the rundown of what technology they were using. Uh, so I was like, all right, this fits. So that was a, that was a lead software engineer, uh, developer position. And so I was like, I may not get this, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna shoot my shot. And so started going down through that interview process, but not— but like less than a week later, my buddy was like, hey, um, you know, reach out to my manager. So I did, I did that and didn't expect to get 2 happening sequentially.

Yeah.

Um, but it, it happened. Um, there, you know, it was kind of some overlap. It's like, you know, you've got to get ready, your who are you, the whole like And both of them had kind of more informal interview processes. I mean, we weren't jumping through like 8 interview processes to get to like Google or something. So it was like a meet and greet, culture fit, tech interview. And then, you know, depending on what leadership in the company that you meet. So, but yeah, I mean, so some— there was some overlap, but yeah, it was about scheduling and making sure.

You know, um, did you, did, uh, did you push one company over the other because like, because you were like, hey, I'm interviewing with another company? Like, did that ever come up? Because I think it's a great way to leverage and move on.

Um, you know, and that's the thing is I was, I was feeling like, okay, how, how do I do this properly? Because I, I don't want to burn any bridges. Like, even, um, uh, so I went through both interview processes and I You know, I didn't— I told the one that I was veering towards, the one that I'm currently working at, um, you know, I, I told— I was in the interview process, like, towards the end, they had already extended— the other company had extended the offer. So I told them, I was like, hey, they get an offer. I didn't even put the salary. I wasn't trying to pitch salaries or trying to— yeah, to work at this other company because first off, my buddy worked there, and then that I already knew. And then I, I met the boss, and who was gonna— who was my boss currently, and I was like, I like sky. Yeah, these are people I want to work for and work with. So, um, in fact, yeah, 2 offers. The, the, the place that I deferred the offer came first and then second. So I had to kind of— I had to tell the company I'm currently working at, I told my— that boss during the interview process, like, hey, there's another company, um, but I would— I, I am putting you as a priority. And, um, in fact, actually the other company had a higher salary, um, had a, um, you know, I guess bigger title, which I'm not chasing titles or salaries. Um, I wanna work with people, um, that I like and vice versa, I'm sure. So.

That's awesome, man. All right, as we wrap up, last, last wise words of wisdom before we dive into rapid fire here. Any last words of wisdom for people getting started in meetups or getting started in their job search or their career? Any, any last things that may have popped into your brain that we didn't get to?

Um, well, I always used to use the inverse. I was like, follow the golden rule, don't be a dick. Um, yeah, I mean that, but, but now I've inverted it and I say be kind. Just be kind. Uh, kindness is free to give out. Um, and it's like, only hurt people hurt other people. So if you're ever interacting with people online and they are not too polite, polite or kind, just, just walk away. You know, there's something going on in their lives. I've— but just be kind. You don't know where if you planted that seed— like, for example, uh, Will, he'd said something nice to me when I put something in the Wins channel, um, and just gave me some helpful advice. And I was like, dude, that's— you remember people like that.

You do.

And you do. Gratitude is the secret sauce in life, I think. True, true appreciation for other people Um, and just appreciate every day and everything that you have coming towards your way because, um, yeah, there's, there's a lot of people that paved a path for you and just show appreciation to them.

I love it. I love it. All right, man, rapid fire here. First question, what is one tech tool or app you cannot live without right now?

Oh my gosh. Uh, I was listening to you and Will talk last week and yeah, definitely. Um, I've been turned on to Claude, more so than ChatGPT. But it is just, you know, it hallucinates. It's not perfect, but it is just having tools like this nowadays. Like, some people are terrified about them, but they are great if you want to learn something. If you don't know about something, it's helped tremendously and speed up the process of learning. And if you're an inquisitive person and you challenge things and you don't accept things at face value, Then that's the thing is you can't accept it at face value, just like you couldn't accept a Google search at face value. Like, use these tools, leverage them properly. Don't have them do all your work, but like, learn from them. I mean, I got thrown onto a Swift project. I hadn't touched any Swift. And it just like, I was like, okay, I'm used to doing this in JavaScript or TypeScript. How do I do this and this? And just like, you know, and just keep pinging back and forth. I feel like I can be My, like, my prior senior, uh, uh, engineer, he'd be like, I'd ask him questions, probably tell me to shut up, whereas I can just keep pinging this thing back.

And I know it's really cool. That, that's actually a great way to say it. That's actually a great way to say it. It's basically like having a senior engineer, like, at your beck and call, basically.

A bit, yeah. And it's— but yeah, validate what it says. Like, don't— sure, question it, test it, try it out. Um, But, um, yeah, it's—

I love it.

Just be curious. I love it.

Uh, what's the first job you ever got paid to do?

So I filled pop machines. My family owned an IGA grocery store. Um, soda pop machines or soda machines, whatever you would call— I call them pop machines. Okay. Um, I'd, uh, I just basically go load up the soda and put them in the, the pop machines.

That's right.

It was like, it was always during the summer. Like all my other friends had to detassel corn. They'd come back from like all sweaty and I'd be like, here, throw 'em like free sodas. And it was just like I was everybody's friend cuz they're, they get off like sweating their butt off. I'm like, oh, I've been working in AC all day. I just want you to feel soda. I felt really guilty.

That's awesome. Uh, I don't, I, I, I don't know if you're remote hybrid or what your situation is right now. What, what, what do you, what is your ideal situation? Like, like, like if you could, If you could set how you worked with any company, what would the cadence be versus is it all remote? Is it some in the office? When is it? Give me a breakdown there.

I am full remote, but my boss and one of my, and soon to be 2 more of my coworkers are geographically located in my area. So we try to get together about once a week and I like that. If I had it, the choice, I would want to be in person, but with maybe one day a week of flexibility. But generally, the prior company, that agtech company, they were right here in town. And I just, you know, got into my zone, I could roll over the DevOps guy like, hey, we need to spin something up on AWS. Like, we just got stuff done efficiently. And we enjoyed each other's company. Like, we, we just built a camaraderie that, um, with remote work I'm still learning how to do, but—

It's hard. It's hard. I— so, so, so would you like to be in the office at least once or twice a week, ideally?

Yeah, I'd say ideally.

I think same too. I, I think, I think I would, I would argue, unfortunately, I think in our industry it's just, it's, it's gonna be fully remote staffing. I don't think it's ever gonna be confined to a location. Even though we're talking about some things for TORC next year, by the way, so it could be some exciting stuff in some cities potentially. Nowhere near you, Andrew. Maybe Chicago.

I figure not, but I'm willing to travel. I don't know, I'm like 2, 2 and a half hours from Chicago.

Hey, well, we're talking about potentially, potentially, potentially, potentially some big cities, so I'll let you know. I'll keep you updated. Um, what is, uh, what did you originally want to be when you, when you were young, when you want to grow up, like, like when you were a kid? Like, what'd you say you wanted to be?

I wanted to be an archaeologist, but then I found out what Indiana Jones did was not what an archaeologist does.

No, no, no, no, they dig with toothbrushes all day.

But, uh, then no, I wanted to go into architecture.

Okay.

And, uh, but then I actually ended up going to college at the United States Naval Academy, and that was not a career option after that. So I was, uh, wanted to go in the Marine Corps Okay, so awesome, awesome.

Um, next question: do you have any— do you have any career mistakes you're oddly grateful for? This, this question seems to stump some people, but any missteps that in hindsight you're like, well, it kind of worked out?

Yeah, I mean, pretty much my whole life story is a misstep. Like, I didn't want to be in restaurants for A decade. I didn't—that wasn't the plan. It kind of happened to me, and but I am so grateful because it taught me really. I feel like I have coined myself as an introvert most of my life. I said that I'm kind of an extroverted introvert, but that that taught me how to talk to people, like how to solve people problems and how to interact with people and. Like, I heard you say this one time about, you know, you've never— like, until with the Bloomin' Onion, where you have to get—

Yeah, Friday night, 3 Bloomin' Onions to 3 tables at the same time.

Like, I mean, probably stressful. That is just— I, I still have those restaurant stress dreams, but I am glad I did it. Yeah. Um, I, I'm glad the skills it taught me. Um, I'm glad it taught me how just to Be okay with, like, I mean, especially when you're, when you're as a bartender, you're having conversations with people that you may not agree with about anything, but you can't run away from the bar. You're stuck behind that bar. So learn how to just be able to just communicate with people and find some even— really, yeah, some even ground to play on, you know.

That's really it. Like, for me, like, we should have done this whole talk on what the service industry has taught us. But like, I'll never forget, there was, there was one night I just completely forgot to like turn in the ticket. Like I forgot to turn in the meal and like they never got their stuff. And I was like, oh no. So like I went out and apologized and they were a super nice couple and I was hammering it up with them. I was like, man, like I'm an idiot, blah, blah. I'm so sorry. Like we'll get this out quickly. And they were super chill with it. And literally at the end of the dinner, they like gave me a huge tip. They're like, we didn't care that the food was late. We had a great time. You entertained us. And like the guy like hooked me up with a few pairs of Ray-Bans. I have no idea how that— I think it was in the eye industry that I'd like the eyewear industry, but like just vibing with people and being kind, dude, is everything. Like I would say that's how I've gotten to where I'm at in my career. Like you just be nice.

And yeah, when I was down at the beach, it was just like, people are on vacation, like, I'm just getting them drunk. I'm like, let's have a great time. I want you to have an awesome vacation. I— and I, I'm not here to be a fun police, but yeah, if something goes wrong, like, you can always give them free food, you can always give them a little extra on the pour, and they leave happy.

Um, all right, last question. Show's called Guidance Counselor 2.0 because we had guidance counselors in middle school, high school, and college, but now as adults we don't really have them. What would be your biggest piece career advice to young Andrew if you can go back in time?

Biggest piece of advice, um, that's just kind of like I said, back to the other things, is figure out what you want. Like, first off, figure out what you want. Like, I mean, take a— hey, go, go move down to the beach and figure out your life, even if it takes a decade, and then get back to, to Earth and say, okay, that's what I want to do. Make a plan. Um, but yeah, back to things. Be kind and have gratitude in your heart. But, and then another thing, move your body. Like, I am, as an ex-personal trainer, like, you don't got to be a gym rat.

Yeah.

Go for a walk, do whatever your flavor of fitness is, find something. And I— and that's the one thing that, you know, I'm glad that since 2020 we really started talking about mental health. Yeah, I think one of the least prescribed things for mental health is physical activity.

And sun.

And sun. Just, you know, I— every day for lunch, I, you know, if I work someplace and they're like, oh, you can't even take a 30-minute walk a day, I'm like, I'm not sure if I want to work for you. You're not like— if I don't have the time in my day to do that. So yeah, go for the walk if you have the ability to go for a walk. If you like doing yoga, do yoga. Do CrossFit. Go like Find it and also find a community in that. That's a great way to find community, but it's just your body and your mind are gonna thank you for taking some time to take care of it, and you're gonna get more from it. Like, you're just gonna feel better, you're gonna have a better day. Like, and that's all I want. I want everybody—

I agree. I've started to walk first thing in the mornings, the old Gary Brecka thing, like get outside first thing in the morning. Like, that's really helped me kind of dial in. Um, and I just find myself like, if I'm holding my office all day and I just don't get out, like, I just feel irritable. Like, um, so go for a walk, get some sun. I love it. Awesome, Andrew. Thank you, my friend. This was fun.

Yeah, dude, I love this. I love it. I'm super great, like, grateful, um, appreciative, because like you've had some, some people on. I'm like, dude, I'm a shadow in comparison.

Oh, stop, stop. Everybody's Everybody's story resonates with somebody else, man. Uh, Sebastian comes in here. Do you do Pepsi or Coke?

Um, I do not do the colas. Uh, I, I will drink a Diet Coke.

Your accent's fantastic. Cola.

I don't drink the cola. Um, I'll drink a Diet Coke if, uh, I need some caffeine or something. Uh, yeah, yeah. It's only—

Do you do, do you do coffee? Do you do coffee or matcha or anything like that?

Oh yeah, I'm, uh, I got, uh, like some terrible Folgers in this cup right now.

Ooh.

So I know it's—

My, my wife had— my wife and I had a conversation recently. She's like, here's the deal. We're trying to cut back, saving. Got 3 kids coming up, right? Yeah. We were evaluating our finances. She goes, you, you have to figure out how to cut down on your coffee spend. And I was like, I understand. 'Cause I can't, I just, I can't do super cheap coffee, um, like Folgers. I just can't. Like, I would vomit. No, no offense. I mean, like, I know it's bad. What do they make it with? Like, I want to know. I want a docuseries, huh? I think it's dirt.

I think it's literally— I'm just drinking dirt.

I think so. I think they like get dirt, they pack it down, and they just like sprinkle some, uh, some like coffee flavor in it. But yeah, I can't do it. I found trade coffee. I'm back doing trade coffee. It's actually cheaper. Um, I can get a bag a week, which is kind of what I go through, and it's $20, so it's $80 a month.

Okay, that's not terrible.

No, it's not terrible. So, but you—

okay, here's the thing with Folgers is I just give myself Folgers as like my baseline, then on Saturday or Sunday, a little treat. Yeah, appreciate it. Like, that's how you really truly appreciate yourself, was like when you give yourself crap all the time. I love it.

Yeah, yeah, that's a very like personal trainer mentality. Like, we're just gonna get in the dirt, just, just drink the dirt for caffeine. Yeah. All right, y'all, thank you again. Comments have been off the chain. I appreciate y'all so much. Um, thank you. Go connect with Andrew. We'd love to have you in the Torque Discord. Um, and y'all have a good one. We will see y'all next week. Peace.