From Layoff to Job in 19 days w/Sr. Engineer Michael Eaton

All righty, Mike, I'll have to ask— I ask everybody this starting out— are we a coffee drinker? Are we a tea drinker? Are we neither?

Really? No, we're tea. It's, it's actually on further up on my desk. I just can't read.

Do, do you have a— do you have a favorite?

So I, I— most times it's just plain green tea, but sometimes it's jasmine, and then sometimes in the afternoon I'll go with like a peppermint tea.

Awesome. Are we not— have— are— did— are we getting off the caffeine? Do we not like the taste of coffee? I'm always curious.

No, I've never— I never— I never acquired the taste for coffee. And honestly, the, the, the more I saw my friends just become total coffee freaks and have to buy all the stuff, and yeah, I thought it can turn into—

it can turn into something for sure.

Right, right. And, and I, you know, I see people go out and they every day they have to have it, and I don't have to have it. I like the taste of it, so every morning I'll I'll brew a cup, um, and I've done, I've done loose leaf, I've done bags, I've done all of it, um.

Sure.

But it's just a, you know, I love it. I sit at my desk and I have a warmer so it stays warm for hours. I love it, I love it. That's great, that's great.

Well, good morning, y'all. Uh, happy Tuesday. Um, excited, uh, for this episode. Um, you know, I think one of the things that I'm trying to get better at— yeah, Pepsi. Um, uh, the, the great Pat Clark out of Raleigh, I asked him that question, he went straight to Pepsi, and it's been kind of an inside joke now in the Torque community. Um, but, uh, so, you know, for just let y'all know kind of how I'm positioning Guidance Counselor 2.0 is, is, you know, we are— I, I do a lot of social listening, right? And I, I, I am chronically online. I, you know, see what people post, see what people talk about, and I immediately slide through DMs. And so obviously Michael made a post about his job search, how quick it went, and I was like, all right, we gotta talk to this guy. So I've known Michael for a long time, but excited for this conversation to talk about his job search. You know, it's funny, I asked him backstage, I was like, hey, so like, what, what happened? He was like, oh, it was luck. I was like, yeah, well, we can't say that. Like, and obviously just— I But, you know, I do think a little luck comes into the job search. So we're gonna talk about it. But again, please say hey. We'd love to hear from you. Again, kind of what I tell people is like, this is a virtual networking session, right? You show up, you listen to a great speaker, just like a meetup, and you comment in the comments, network with other people in the comments. You know, kind of what we're doing at Torque and kind of our whole mission is really kind of opening up— you know, I'm a big football guy. We're opening up the playbook. We're like, hey, we're gonna open up our network. You can network with everybody. I've been doing this show for 5 years now. It was every day for like 4 years. Now I'm pulling it back to 2 times a week, um, to get, you know, a little, a little bit more specific on guests. But if you've networked off the back of me and this show for 5 years and you network and you messaged every single guest, you know, every single person in the chat, you have a pretty expansive network at this point, which is my whole goal. So again, please say hey. Would love to hear from you. We do get some people tuning in again. Daniel, it's good to see you. Ricardo. Chris, it's great to see you, my guy. I still owe you a DM. Jordan, it's great to see you. Kelly. Uh, Alex, great to see you. Um, and Davis, good to see you as well. Chris. We got some people trickling in, which is great. Want to get some housekeeping things real quick before I kick it off to Mike. First and foremost, want to give a shout out to Appwrite. I am a part of their Heroes program. Great crew, great DevRel team. Um, and, uh, so go check them out. Also too, listen, we got a lot going on Torque Community. Um, so if you want to get an idea before joining the Discord, go check it out, torque.community. You want to jump in our Discord, it's pretty simple. It's, it's discord— or torque.dev/discord. We'd love to have you. And if you want to be updated when I go live with great guests like Michael, shoot me a text. It's actually my number, it's like my second number, I guess you could say. Just text live to it, I'll loop you in. Um, and I shoot out invites, uh, every single morning I go live with guests. Um, what else? We got some more people. Angelo, it's good to see you. Richie, it's good to see you. Uh, Leanna, it's great to see you as well. You tuned in. Elliot, it's wonderful to see y'all. What they want, man, a little bit about you. Who are you? What do you do? And, uh, we'll dive into your very abbreviated job search. All right.

Um, yeah, so I've been a dev for 30 years. This is my 30th year. Um, honestly would love to retire, but that's not gonna happen anytime soon.

30 years.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've been mostly in the Microsoft world, mostly doing that. I was independent for 14 of the 30 years, so I had my own thing.

Okay.

Um, in 2014, decided that I was tired of that life and went back to work for the man.

Yeah, yeah.

So, so since, since '14, I've been, I've been working for the man, um, at various places. And, um, and just a little foreshadowing, Every job I've had since then has all been from my network. Yeah, like, like there's, there hasn't been a time where I've like just gone out somewhere and said, I'm gonna apply. So we'll talk about that a little bit. Um, but you know, I live in Columbus, Ohio. We moved here about 6 years ago. Um, got my wife and I have been married for 28 years, just had our anniversary a couple months ago. Love it.

Congrats, man.

2 adult kids still living at home because it's a rough world out there. Yeah, um, yep. I'm sorry, it's an expensive world out there. Yeah, um, yeah, and it was interesting.

I was literally just listening to a podcast, uh, kind of like just a business, general business podcast, and, and, and, and I mean, this is a whole nother conversation, but that it's now become very normal for kids to like live at home right now because it's just so expensive. Um, uh, so yeah, that could probably launchpad for a whole nother conversation. But yeah, um, I love that, man. I love that. All right, so, uh, I got you on because obviously your last job search Um, was from layoff to job, 19 days, right? I had Lawrence Lockhart on the show, uh, a few months ago talking about how his job search lasted 89 days. Um, he never cold applied. Um, you know, we talked about backstage, you never cold applied. Just kind of set the lay of the land, man. Kind of like what I, what I asked you backstage. Give me just kind of general overview of the job search to kind of set the tone, and then I'll pick it up.

So So a couple things. So I want to, um, I kind of knew the layoff was coming, right? Like, like, like within a day, right?

So I had a little bit of a heads up. Not super, not super long though.

No, no, no. So I, I worked for a consulting company, uh, and, and I finished up my last gig at the, uh, end of May. Okay. So on June 2nd, which was a Monday, I rolled onto the bench. And I was on the bench, uh, what ended up being 2, 2 weeks. Um, and the— not the first Thursday that I was on the bench, the second Thursday we had a bench meeting and it was kind of dire, right? There was, there was nothing coming up for my skills.

Yeah.

Um, which I want to talk about too because I— yeah, there were things. So what, what I did when I was on the bench and then what I did, um, kind of continued on. Um, and so I'm friends with the, the kind of the head of, um, recruiting in Ohio. And so I was talking to him and he was like, he didn't say it, but he was like saying it. He was like, you know, you, it wouldn't hurt to look, wouldn't hurt to start looking, right?

Yeah.

And so, uh, the next day, um, I had another call with him. It wasn't to lay me off, right? I had another call with him saying, Dude, I'll do whatever. Like, don't don't just put me in the box of like this thing. I'm willing to do whatever. But at that point, it was too late. Like he he knew. So five o'clock that night, I'm driving to dinner with my family, and my boss called me, and it was just a very quick. I hate doing these calls, but this is it. So it was just kind of like oh. OK, right?

Yep.

Don't, you know, I'm not getting upset or anything. Just trying to take it all in of, OK, how long do I have benefits? And how long, you know, when's my last paycheck, right? All the things that I care about as a father and a husband of like, OK, I got to make sure I'm taking care of everybody. I immediately, as soon as I hung up with him, I immediately, as I'm answering questions for my wife, she was driving, as I'm answering questions, I'm on LinkedIn, turned on the green banner. Like, it was just an immediate—

that was—

I needed to do something.

Yeah.

Um, and so, so that was the kind of my first thing I did is I turned on the green banner. Um, and then I took the weekend off. Like, I just— like, there's no reason to, to get too stressed about it. Um, now I will say that, uh, I was in for the— once I knew I was laid off, I thought for sure, because I've been reading the horror stories on LinkedIn. Right.

Yeah.

People taking, taking months and months and months, some taking over a year. Right. And, and I'm, I'm in my 50s. And so there's all sorts of things are like, oh, you know, like, yikes. Like what? Yeah. Just so, just kind of scary. The whole thing was kind of scary. But, um, uh, but even that first night, even Friday when I turned on the green banner, I got one solid lead and it was like—

Literally by just turning on the green banner.

Yeah, someone— so someone had seen me speak at Tech Bash last year.

Yep.

And he was— and we— I remember I met him, right? He came up, we talked a little bit at Tech Bash, and he said, hey, man, I think you'd do great here. Like, yeah, let me do an intro with HR and, you know, our recruiter, and let's get that ball rolling. Like, cool, let's do it. But, you know, again, the The reposts happened, and people were engaging with the post kind of throughout the weekend and then into the next week. And I started to get other other pings, right? From other not just there, but you know I'd get texts or I would get you know I'm on Discord and a couple places and so so people would reach out to me there. One other thing I will say that that day, see if I can keep do this without choking up a little bit here. So. That afternoon, I had earlier in that day before I was laid off, I texted one of my mentors and I said, I think I'm getting laid off today. Right. And so then I, when it happened, and I take that back, I emailed, right? I emailed him and no sooner did I send that email than he called me.

Yeah. Right.

And this is, he's just amazing. So, He called me, uh, and he said, how you feeling? Well, I said, well, I feel like crap, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And, uh, I said— he said, no, so, you know, how are you doing, right? And I said, well, it kind of sucks to, to not be good enough, right? And he's like, hold on, stop. And he said a few, few other words, right? He said, stop, they didn't say that. They didn't say that.

Correct.

Stop. He said, you need to tell yourself the right story.

Yep.

He said, do not let yourself get into that. And it was probably 5 minutes of that, right, of him just telling me to get my act together and not feel sorry for myself and, yeah, and that kind of stuff. So that was, that was pretty awesome, right? So that kind of—

Yeah, that's awesome.

Kind of set the tone for the rest of what happened. But so, probably by mid the following week, I had what I considered probably 5, like, really solid leads. And I've got a whiteboard behind, rolling whiteboard behind me. And I started, I'd write on them who the company was, who the referral came from, who the recruiter was, right? What phase I was in, what I, you know, like if we had talked about salary, kind of what I had asked for, just so I didn't forget. Because that's always embarrassing.

Yep.

And then so I just, I kept that, that going. But the other thing I kept doing every day, this was something I committed to like that, that Monday.

Yep.

Is again, part of it not feeling sorry for myself. But look, I know there, I know I have a gap. I know I have a gap in, I'm not a frontend guy. I'm not a React guy.

Sure.

So I, while I was on the bench in those, those previous 2 weeks, I had been working on a new personal website. And so then it kind of got serious because I was like, okay, I need to, I need this thing, right? So, so the Friday I got laid off, I had published it, resume, right? All the things kind of out there in one place, all my speaking, all my podcasts I'd been on. And So I continued to work on that. In fact, I had a— I called my friend Corey House, who's a— yeah, he's the React guy, right? Yeah. I said, hey man, can we get on a call? Can you review some of my code?

Sure.

And so he did that, but that gave me something to think about other than, you know, hey, I'm out of— I'm out of work, right? Sure, sure. And so I was doing that, but I was also every day writing recommendations for people I had worked with on LinkedIn.

Interesting.

Right? As a way to kind of, I don't know, give back. Just, I had just wrapped up a project. And, and so I wrote recommendations for the entire team I had worked with. They deserved it. And I thought, you know, it's not a bad thing to Again, it's humility, right? Think less of yourself and more about others, that kind of thing. So I try to do that every day. But I would just, I just kept having the calls, right? I'd have the recruiter calls and, and just kind of follow each, each one. And I had one recruiter call where it was like, this sounds really cool. Now, when he first pinged me on LinkedIn in a message, I said, I don't think I'm your guy just based on the description. Yeah, it felt like a really big role, like bigger than I would want. I would want—

Sure.

Almost like an executive role. And it's like, I don't, I don't know. So I said, hey, I'm happy to talk though. Yeah, let's, let's, let's talk. And we talked and it sounded really cool. And then he ghosted me. So, you know, that happens. Yes. But I did just to, just to kind of go back to the idea of that network. One of the recruiters that reached out to me, I had worked with her at a job, well, probably almost 20 years ago.

Right? Wow.

And, and, and we worked at the same company. And she's like, you know what, I've always kept track of the alumni. And she's like, you were there when it was good. Yeah. So she's like, she's like, there's a, there's a certain level of trust I have in you because you were there when it was Kind of the good times. So, you know, she had a lead for me that was solid, but I had, I had the probably the 2, the 2 leads that bubbled up to the top of my list were from people that I had worked with, um, in the last 5, 6 years.

And, and, and did you reach out to those people? They reached out to you?

No, they reached out to me. They reached out to me. One of them was a text saying, hey, we need a— that we have our— my company has an opening for a tech lead.

Yep.

And then another one was, was from a friend of mine. And he said, so he was on my team when I, when I worked at Quicken Loans back in the day. And so he's always said, I would work with or for you again in a heartbeat.

Yeah.

So we, we went one other place together. We worked there briefly together. And then This time around, he's like, he, I forget how he probably Discord. He's like, man, I would love it. I would love to work with you again.

Yeah.

We've got this opening. It's just a dev role. Right. But I wasn't, when I went into this search, I wasn't being, I forget what I said. I probably said on that Green Banner post, you know, dev manager, tech lead, because I've been those things. But I also said, developer, because most places, if I identify as anything, it's developer. I've been a developer for 30 years. I've written code for 30 years. Um, so like, I love the leadership piece of it. I do. Um, and, and I'll get back to that at some point. But sure. I also, um, when I was talking to Corey House in one of those, one of those calls, this was right after I got laid off. He's like, dude, why don't you just become a middle manager? And I'm like, I just had to— that was a little cringy, right? I'm like, come on, Corey. But, you know, it was kind of that. It was— I didn't— the big thing is that I've said to everybody I've talked to over the last several years, my requirement is I want to work with smart people on cool things.

Sure.

I don't care what role I'm in.

Yeah.

And so I, you know, sure, a couple of the roles were kind of those, those bigger leader, leader-y roles, but I didn't care. What I found interesting, though, is when I was talking to the company that I'm now with, when I was talking to both my friend and his boss and his boss's boss, like, they were genuinely excited because of the referral my friend had given me, right? They were like, every, every interaction I had, they were genuinely excited, which got me excited about the role. And, and then they told me about the potential, all the things they were working on and all the things they wanted to achieve and all this stuff. And so that one, I was telling my wife, like, there was one point which I, I thought I was going to have 2 offers on the table at the same time.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, and, and one of them went a different direction, which is fine with me.

Sure.

Um, no harm, no foul. But I was like, this is, this is going to be tough.

Yeah.

Like, because, because, you know, this one, here are the pros here. This one, here are the, the pros. Um, there weren't many cons with either one of them.

Sure.

But, um, it was just that it was, it was, you know, but so kind of that, that whole time I was, I was doing that. I never, I never blind applied. So the one, one common thing I kept seeing in the LinkedIn posts from people, that kind of the horror stories, is I've, I've applied 500 times and interviewed 300. And, and I'm thinking, you know, hearing people, the, the stories about submitting a resume and having it insta-denied, right?

Yeah.

Because something in the resume wasn't right. That That to me was going to be 6 weeks down the road, right? Like, like, I, I was really trusting my network. Um, there hasn't been a time since probably 20— 2011, 2012, even when I was an independent, um, I would get calls from, from clients who said, hey, so-and-so referred you, when can you start?

Yeah.

Right? So yeah, there was a lot of that. So I was just trusting in the net, in my network. And while I appreciated every single person who, who reposted, who, who gave words of support, the ones who said, hey, I've got something, let's talk. The ones who texted, hey, I've got something, let's talk. Those are the ones that, you know, kind of obviously made the, made the difference. Um, but I, I appreciated every every bit of support that I got. But I was still, I was still nervous about the whole thing, even when I got— so yeah. So I got through, I got through. So of the 6 that I had, probably at the end of week 1, 2 of them just weren't what I was looking for. They were very, very, very, very, very, very small consulting companies.

Sure.

And I just, I, I don't know, there was just something—

You didn't want to go back into it.

I didn't want to go back into it. They sounded cool, the people sounded great. Um, then there was the, the one that I thought was a potential and then kind of got ghosted out of that one. Um, and it eventually boiled down to these 2 that, that both sounded really, really, really good. Yeah. And so I got to the final interview of the one, and I— look, I was stressing. Like, technical interviews stressed me out. I would think that anyone who's listening— technical— no one enjoys tech interviews.

Yeah, I mean, that, that is refreshing coming from somebody who's very senior, because I think, I think the general notion is like, oh, Michael's senior, or I think not even Michael, just anybody senior, they don't, they don't have emotions, they don't stress, they, they have it easy. And it's like, no, like, everybody Everybody's on the same playing field in job search. It sucks. Everybody hates it.

Yes. Like, well, one of— so one of the— one of my friends who referred me to the, the one I didn't get, that didn't make an offer, uh, you know, he was asking me like, hey, how you feeling? As I was coming into one of the interviews, I forget which one it was. And I said, I'm nervous.

He's like, what?

You're nervous? And, and I said, you know, that a little bit of that imposter syndrome is sneaking in, right?

Yeah.

And he was— he's only been in the industry for maybe 10 years or so, but he's like, why are you? I'm like, well, because number one, with tech interviews, you never know what you're gonna get.

Yep.

Right? Like, if there was a standard of tech interviews, that'd be one thing, but you just never know. Someone may be out to prove something, that they're smarter than you. And so, you know, but I went into the tech interviews You know, look, as confident as I could be, um, and as Justin, uh, yeah, tech interviews are tough. But that I give— 2 of my conference talks are about tech interviews. One of them is from the perspective of the interviewee, the candidate, of things you can do to improve. And then the other one's from the point of view—

We should do a joint talk one day because I think same thing too.

Yeah, then the other one's from the point of view of the interviewer, of things we as tech Tech interviewers can do better. Yeah. And so anyway, I think one of the things through the whole process, I think I was feeling some internal stress, but outwardly to my, to my family, I was trying to kind of show some strength and like, hey, I'm gonna be okay.

You're like dying inside.

Well, I don't think it ever got to be that bad, right? But it's still, it's still nerve-wracking knowing that, hey, you're the provider and you have to do something.

Yeah.

You know, I had, I had 2 weeks of benefits. I, so I got benefits through the end of June and then I got, my last paycheck was last week.

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

So, yeah. But again, everyone, everyone's been really supportive.

So let me, let me, let me ask you this, man. I mean, so I think a few things I want to call out first is, one, you didn't panic. Two, you, you took some time for yourself, right? I mean, when I interviewed Lawrence, Lawrence was like, hey, I took a week. Now that was him, but like, I think there is a type of mindset you have to get into, right? And you took the weekend. And then you got after it on, on, on Monday. I also want to make a mention that you also were intentional about keeping up of where you're interviewing, who you spoke to, where are the leads. Because I feel like a lot of times people go through a job search and they just— it's just kind of just like what's in front right now. They don't think— what, what, what did you do about— I mean, listen, obviously it was a very abbreviated search, but What was like, what did you do follow-up-wise? I think a lot of people struggle with follow-up in, in the job search. They don't put any importance to it. Any thoughts on that?

Uh, so, oh, I sent, I sent thank-yous to the ones that kind of fell off the list, right? I didn't, I didn't ghost them back, right? So, so I would, in fact, um, one of them, the recruiter who I'd worked with years ago, um, The email I sent to her was very much like, man, I really appreciate this. This team looks awesome. I just don't think I'm the guy for it. I don't think I'm the person for it. But, you know, thank you for thinking of me and that, you know, that kind of stuff. So I do that with all of them.

That's great.

I would always let— I would always let the recruiters know, you know, kind of post-interview, hey, let the team know I appreciate their time. And especially when the one— when the one finally said, hey, they went a different direction, I'm like, Hey dude, let them know I enjoyed myself. Like, it was a good process.

Yeah.

The interviews were, were a little stressful, but, you know, I enjoyed the process and I let them know that. And, and so, you know, those were the types of— now, the one who ghosted me, I never did follow up and say, hey, did you forget about me? Because I was like, at that point, I was, I was at the point where I knew things were coming from other ones and, and You know, if a company is going to make you an offer, I can't say, look, I need 2 more weeks because I need to see how this one's going to work out.

Right. Right.

And I was also very clear to, to the kind of the 2 that ended up being at the top of like, look, I, I am interviewing other places. I think an offer is coming and here's how this is going to go.

Yeah.

Just to, just to be respectful of of the whole process, right? Because I, I, yeah, I don't know. I don't want to surprise anyone. Or—

Let me— I, I want to make a note. I want to, I want to get your thoughts on this. I think, and I see people in the chat, the chat's going off right now for— and, and so we'll, we'll get to those in a second. I feel like the job search is almost forced networking. Like, you expand your network so much during the job search. Now, that is a glass-half-full mentality. I understand it's hard. I under— I'm not dismissing that it's not hard. But I do think if you can get in the mindset of like, all right, I'm about to put the networking jet engines on over the next few weeks, few months, you really touch base with people you haven't talked to. Kind of like you said, you make new connections. Like, I feel like it's— it really kind of sets you up almost for your next job search in a way. Like, the reason why I got the job at Torque is because I interviewed with Dave, my boss, before I went to Gun.io. And then I left Gun and I immediately texted Dave.

Right.

So, I mean, it kind of builds on itself.

Well, so I do want to talk about networking just for a second.

Yeah, well, that's how you got the job.

So when I tell people, look, I'd say 90% of this was network, right? Because, because they're the people who reached out to me and said, hey, we've got something for you. I talked to a lot of my friends who say I have no network.

Yep. Right?

Like, I just, I've never spent time on it. I've never done anything to do to build it. I'm not even on LinkedIn. That was what one of my, one of my friends who just got laid off too said. And networking is more than just making a connection on LinkedIn. It's more than just one handshake at a conference, right? You have to follow up. You have, you're cultivating a relationship. It's not just Hey, I have this one connection over here that'll help me in 5 years. Because if they don't know who you are, other than, hey, we met at a conference for 5 minutes, you know, I think it's important that you're cultivating relationships. And I, you know, a big chunk of my network are friends. We, I mean, we're friends. We've been on the speaker circuit for almost 20 years.

Yeah. Right?

We've done all these kinds of things together. I've worked with many of them. They've worked with me. And I think one thing that kind of hit me is that it was, it was refreshing to have people I've worked with before say, I want to work with you again.

Yeah.

Right. And I think that was, that was really cool. And like I said, even the one guy who was, who I met last year at Tech Bash was like, I think you'd be great here. It'd be great to work with you. I saw you talk and all this kind of stuff. But networking is just more than, than, and to me it's more, there's more to it than social media. Like I like to make real connections. Yeah.

Talk about that. I'm obviously giving a talk at DevUp about content and community. So, may steal some stuff from what you're about to say.

Yeah, no, like, look, social media. I was on Twitter right after Twitter started. So 2006-ish, 2007, right? The early days where there was the Fail Whale. And, and they were— that's how I met a lot of my, what are now, who are now like really good friends, is we kind of all connected on, on Twitter. And it was funny because Twitter in the days of the fail whale, when, when it would go down multiple times per day, a bunch of us spun up an IRC server and we would hang out there where the chats could be different, a little more, a little more intimate, a little more detailed. And then we'd go to conferences and it'd be like, hey, are you and You know, Twitter handles. It'd be, are you so-and-so? You know, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

Um, and so that was just— that was fantastic. Um, but I think that social networking is, is good to a point, but try to extend out and, and make some of those connections, um, a little more solid. I mean, jump on, jump on a call with someone.

Um, it works, dude. I mean, yeah. It's a snowball effect. I mean, we got some people in the Torque Discord who are actively trying to do one-on-ones, and, you know, and that stuff snowballs. Let me ask you, so out of the 6 leads that you got, out of the 6, how many were from your network? All but one. All but one.

Let me ask you, that was, that was that recruiter who just reached out saying, hey, I think you'd be good in this this, and then that's the one who ghosted in the end.

What? Now I know there are going to be people who, um, uh, I, I know there are people are going to be like, all right, well, easy for you to say, you've been on the conference circuit, right? Because I think that's the other thing, right? I don't think like, oh, that's great, Michael, you speak, you've been on Twitter since the OG, I don't have that. What would you, what would you tell them?

Yeah. And so trust me. So I want to say a couple of things here. One, with as quickly as this happened, right? 19 days from, from layoff to that verbal offer. Um, there's a little bit of guilt. Don't like, I know I, it's weird. And my wife, if she were here, would be saying, you shouldn't feel guilty. Right. But there's a little bit of, uh, I feel a little guilty because it Didn't take me that long. Um, and, and then, you know, she did, she did say, well, you have a solid network.

I was gonna say, don't feel guilty, dude. I mean, that's, that is, that is the benefit of you putting in the work. So. Right.

So, but yeah, the network has been a, has been a build of, of almost 20 years now. And, and it's, it's that what I would tell people is if you're not already going to meetups and meeting people, do that. Go meet the speakers, go meet the people, go do that. Look, whenever I, I go to an event with someone who, who Isn't— that's not what they do. I inter— I introduce them to everybody I know. Like, you got to meet him, you got to meet him. And, and I'm— I, I introduce them to everyone I know, and I'll pull them into Discords and, and, you know, where, where my friends are so they can get to know them. And, and, but it's that— it's, it's— you have to do something. You have to— even if you're not—

You have to do something.

You have to do something, even if your network is smaller. Do things. Do things to be visible, right? Post. Do things. Start a blog. Do whatever you can do. I tell people, share what you know. Share what you know so then people are coming to you trying to— they want to be connected to you because of the expertise you're showing online, right? Do those types of things. That's the way you can build your network for sure. You know, I'm old school.

I like the So Mike's a super connector. I think everybody can be a super connector.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think that's a big thing.

Yeah, well, and you know, I think one other thing that my wife has pointed out, which, which is not only do I have a solid network, right, but I think I— and I have a good reputation in the community. And, and I think that, that even if people haven't worked with me before Right. I think that knowing that I have a good reputation in the community helps.

Yep.

And so, you know, the software community is big. It's huge. I don't, you know, it depends on, you know, kind of where you're located. But like here in Columbus, Ohio, the software dev community is huge. And there's lots of people to get to know and talk to and, and do things to get your name out there. And I know that's hard for some people. I do. And I understand I'm coming from a place that A lot of people aren't. So, um, but, but be active on places, show your expertise, share what you know. Don't just take, right? Just don't be a consumer. Um, you know, create stuff and share it and, and those types of things. I think that's really important. Yep.

What, what, what are, what are some other pieces of advice, man? Anything else that maybe we haven't covered or anything that pops into your brain? Oh, I want to ask Of course, I asked that question, but I want to ask another question. But first, you mentioned about being in Discords, being in online communities. Can you talk about the importance of that?

Yeah, look, if I have a question, if I'm stuck on something— so for example, I said, I, you know, I texted Corey and said, hey, I'm working on this thing. Can you, can you give me some feedback? We jumped on a call for an hour. That was fantastic. But there might be times where I need, I need other things. So I'm in I'm in one Discord, I mean, is Dev Chatter, which is, which is a lot of, a lot of folks, is pretty active. But that's a good place for technical questions. So if I get stuck on something, I'm not just relying on, on my, my knowledge. I can reach out to others. I'll share links in there with people. But I think it's important to, to just be somewhere, to have some, some community. Again, if you're not comfortable going out and going to meetups, or you can't, or there's none around because they've all died, which they are, but find somewhere, find somewhere where there's a group of people. And like, for example, DevChatter, the one I'm in, there's gaming chats, there's people—

Yeah, I mean, we got a book club in Torque. I don't even read.

Yeah, yeah, you know, right. But, um, yeah, so I think, I think any kind of community you can be a part of is good.

Yeah.

But I think, again, being old school, I prefer the face-to-face.

Sure. And I think you do need the face-to-face. I think, I think it, I think it is a muscle, right? So prime example, I'm about to go on a little bit of a run here. Torque team is going to be at Laracon. Then the following week, I'm speaking at DevUp in St. Louis. And the following week, I'm in Raleigh speaking at an event. There's a, there's a relatively large actual tech meetup happening in Nashville Thursday night. I'm gonna go. Why do I need to go? No, but I also know that I have not been out of my house that much networking in the last 5 weeks.

Right.

Like, like, it is a muscle. And I was listening to a podcast the other day, it was actually a marketing podcast, and they were talking about the power of community and, and business and networking, all that. And they even said it's a muscle. It's just like running a marathon or going to the gym. If you sit at home, it is harder to get started than if you're consistently putting yourself in somewhat uncomfortable type of settings, whether that be a one-on-one with a stranger or going to an in-person meetup. So, right.

And I don't— I, I had a guy reach out to me who was part of our local community. Um, he was coming to my meetup that I have here in Columbus, and, you know, he was saying how he just is really looking for some kind of mentorship And the number of people he's had who have just ghosted. And I'm like, well, you know, but that's— so if he asks, hey, you want to go do lunch? Yes, absolutely. Let's go have lunch. Let's talk. Let's, you know, figure out, you know, kind of what— how I can help. Um, I think that's important to, to not just, not just keep talking to the same people that you know, but to extend out and be— and look, I'm an, I'm an introvert, which means people wear me out.

Like, social interactions wear me out. Same. I just need caffeinated.

But, but I'll still do them. I'll still do those things. And, you know, I've got 2 events. I've got Cincy Deliver and I've got DevUp coming up. And then Tech Bash later this year.

I'll see you at DevUp. There you go.

Yeah. So, but, you know, it's, it is, it's important to just get out. And yes, and again, I know it's, I know it's tough. And I was, I was at, I know we're kind of getting to time, but Yeah. I did join a— one of my friends, Sean Whitesell, had pinged me and said, hey, so-and-so is speaking at the Tulsa .NET User Group, which is all online. I joined. Oh, it was Fritz giving a talk. It was Jeff Fritz giving a talk. I joined and Fritz gave his talk. Then he does a really good job, which is hard to do, of networking after the event virtually. It was great. At one point, Karl Franklin joined and we're just talking. I think Scott Hunter was there. There were some big names in the .NET world there. But it was just cool to hang out and just be part of that.

I love it. Just being a part, man. I think it goes a long way. It goes a long way. This is great. Again, for everybody who's commented, this is great. I want to go and do my rapid-fire here. Going through questions real quick. Jordan, yes, I would have This is kind of an older question, I would— or statement. I would, I would actually have one. The average that I've seen in the job search is 6 to 9 months right now. Um, so I would absolutely have a savings for that. Um, and then there was some chatter around technical interviewing. Um, again, message Michael if you have any questions on that. Um, yeah, biggest— David comes in here. My biggest fault hangups, I don't Reconnect with the recruiter. Yeah, I mean, listen, I, I know I've talked about this. I will continue to talk about this. Agency recruiters are very busy. They are not compensated. This is why I love Torque and Ronstadt and investing in communities, because most recruiters, almost all recruiters, are just compensated to place the person that's an immediate fit for the job. They don't think about how they're taking care of a candidate down the road. Always follow up with people. Like, what I tell people is I, I call it the BCC trick. It's a very clever name. I came up with it. If there's like 10 recruiters that you've talked to that you like have actually somewhat enjoyed talking to, I would send a quick bio and a status of your job search every month to them. BCC all of them and just say, hey, reminder, still looking, here's what I want. Because I will tell you this, as good of a recruiter as I think I was, I still missed people. I still miss people. So consistently follow up for sure. Um, all right, Michael, you ready for rapid fire?

Sure.

All right, what is the one tech tool or app you can't live without right now?

Vim. It doesn't have to be related. Vim.

What? Okay, great.

It's a, it's a nerd text editor.

I know, I've seen it on Twitter. I don't know what it is. Y'all talk about it. That's great. Vim sounds great. I don't, I don't know what it is. There seems to be a lot of controversy with that one. Um, uh, first, okay, let me ask you this. What is the very first job You ever got paid to do?

I heard you ask someone else this a week or so ago. Um, probably, probably paperboy, delivering newspapers.

Nice.

Back in the '80s sometime.

Really showing your age there. Really.

Yeah, probably, probably 11 or 12.

Did you ride a bike and throw them? Uh, like a thing—

walked, walked and threw them.

Great way to get steps in. Great way to get steps in. Um, let me ask you this. If, if you could have your way in terms of, you know, I've talked to people, like I was even talking to my wife the other day, I was like, man, I kind of wish Ronstadt had an office in town. I could go in a few days a week, get out of the house, just change the scenery. Some people love fully remote. Some people have, want more onsite. If you could have your ideal scenario, what would it be?

I have been remote almost my entire 30-year career. My first gig, I worked out of my dorm and dialed up and did what I needed to do.

That's crazy.

Um, so there's never been a time where I haven't been remote to some degree. I love remote. Um, if I'll go in, if there's a reason to go in, same, and, and, and we're going to do something productive. I don't want to go in and sit there and be on Zoom calls, on Zoom calls. Or, or have everyone be on— have their headphones on listening to music. It seems like a waste to me.

Yep, agreed, agreed. Um, next question: do you have a career mistake you're oddly grateful for?

Yeah, well, I, I— this is my 3rd career choice. Okay, this, this is not what I, what I left school thinking I was gonna do. Okay. Um, I won't get into too much details, but, but there was— I, I had a— I, I was going to school during the day to do one thing, and I, I was a late bloomer. I got my first computer at 19, um, so like '91. And so I would get up in the morning, learn how to do stuff on this computer, right? And then go to school all day, do all that stuff, come back, do the same thing. And I actually started working in this other field But I was still doing the computer stuff. And then I got, then I got a kind of a part-time gig doing, doing development.

Yep.

And then it was like, I like this one better.

Yeah.

So, and that, that was, I don't know, '94.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Um, uh, next question. This kind of maybe goes to what you originally hinted at. If you weren't in tech and the money was the same, what career would you try?

Um, something creative. So, so I love woodworking. I don't do—

I don't do nearly enough because there's a lot of woodworkers starting to pop out in this interview podcast.

Or writing. Okay, I'd find a way. I'd find a way to just write fiction. Um, probably not. I don't have that I just don't have that, but I would find a way just to write. Just— I love that.

I love that. All right, last question. The show's called Guidance Counselor 2.0 because we had guidance counselors in middle school, high school, and college, but now as adults, we don't really have anybody to turn to and ask for general career advice. What would be your biggest piece of career advice to young Michael?

Uh, a piece of advice that I got the hard way from a boss. That's probably 4 or 5 years into my career. Yeah. And he said, reputation is everything. And in fact, he said, if people think you're a jerk— he didn't say jerk— if people think you're a jerk, then you're a jerk.

Yeah.

Crazy, right? Your reputation, your reputation is everything you have. And that was probably in '98 when I got that piece of advice.

I've never forgotten it. Yep, my dad kind of basically said the same thing to me, so I totally agree. All right, well, y'all, thank you so much. It's a great one. It's the only one we're doing this week. Tomorrow I'm off for the day. It's my daughter's 5th birthday. We had my son's 1-year birthday this— a lot of birthdays. And then it's my brother's birthday 2 days ago. It's a lot of birthdays. So I'm taking off tomorrow to be with her. Um, so go connect with Michael. Michael, stay on so I can say bye to you backstage. But y'all have a great one. Um, no lives next week because the Torque team is going to be in Denver for Laracon. So we'll see you in 2 weeks. Y'all have a good one. Bye. Peace.