Hiring Trends and The Power of Community

Yeah, giddy up. All right, here we go, there we go, there we go, here we go. All righty, sweet. What's going on? I'm gonna check my mic one more time. There you go. All right, and we're good. All right, what's going on everybody? Good morning, happy Friday. Uh, just found out backstage, uh, Andy and I have been battling the same cold virus thing. It sounds like he didn't have the fever, but But, um, uh, it's been brutal. So are you like over it yet? Are you still like in the middle of it?

I'm over it. It's, it's hanging on, but I'm good. Yeah.

Oh yeah, it hangs on, dude. Even today, like I, so I've started to go for a walk in the mornings, like to get some like—

Good for you.

Sunlight. Yeah, yeah. 'Cause I, you know, some health guy said it on TikTok, so I'm gonna do it. But like I went on a walk today and like I can tell I'm still not better yet 'cause I come back and I have to blow my nose and it just is like, Anyways, I won't, I won't gross anybody out.

Hey, hey, I want to showcase something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, got that. We sent it out. I, I, I, and I wasn't even gonna text you.

Uh, I got it yesterday, man. Yeah, I was like, I gotta wear this.

Yeah, I was like, I just wanted to surprise them. So yeah, we sent out the first round of swag. Um, we're gonna send out kind of the, the first round of ambassador swag. Um, but, uh, again, pumped to be here today with Andy. Uh, we are starting a few minutes early, so please say hey. I just got the live. We're on YouTube. Let me go to LinkedIn. I'm actually surprised we haven't got any LinkedIn comments yet. Hold on before, before we start. Okay. All right, we are live. Sweet. We've already had 2 comments. I can't even see them yet, but here we go. Wait, this is inception. Torque stream with Ronson. Yeah, we can talk about it. Yeah, yeah, we can talk about it. Absolutely. 100%. Michael, it's good to see you. Um, I, I feel like Andy and I look like we— so I typically have Andy's colored hair. So if I had, if I had Andy's colored hair, we would look like brothers.

Well, I typically have your colored hair. I'm just kidding. Oh, for real? No, I wish, I wish I was that cool.

Uh, and then I actually have dark-rimmed glasses, so if I went back totally brown, we would totally look like, uh, twins. Anyways, now there are people here. Do you want to show the shirt off again?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

There we go, there we go, there we go. Dialed in today, dialed in. Anyways, all right, so A few housekeeping things, always say, hey, we'd love to hear from you. This is a networking kind of meetup thingamajigger that we do, I do, 3 days a week. So please say, hey. We are— if you don't say, hey, I don't know if you're tuning in. And if people don't know you're tuning in, they can't network with you. We have a very active community at Torque. And so people want to connect with people. So please say, hey, we'd love to hear from you. Second thing is, Uh, what else? Appwrite. I'm a non-technical— I'm a non-technical hero on a technical heroes program. I will say, I will say this, Appwrite came out with a lot of cool updates. I don't know what they mean, but they look great, so you should check them out. Um, so that is my plug as an Appwrite hero. Uh, also, we got a lot of cool things going on at Torque Community, torque.community. Check us out. We got like a calendar. I don't know, Andy, do you remember like back in the day when we watched cable and like there, there's like a guide, you know, like you would scroll? Yeah, we have a guide.

Oh yeah.

So if you go to torque.community, we actually have like a guide, like, like of all the things we're going each day. So please check that out. Uh, also, uh, text me if you want to know when I go live with folks. Text me 615-235-5650. Um, I want to give shouts to people again tuning in. Uh, Jordan, it's good to see you. Yes, all caps, we are on that energy level today. Uh, it would be hilarious if Andy wore Torque and Taylor wore Ronstadt. Yeah, yeah. Uh, I don't have any Ronstadt swag, which is kind of wild.

We're gonna fix that Tuesday. I got you.

You got me?

All right.

Yeah, yeah, it'll be Inception. Yeah, it was kind of weird. Basically, like, long story short, me and Ken Collins, our head of product at Torque, got hired together and they had to create— because like we're not core like Ronstadt roles, they had to create it. So we got coded wrong, so we didn't get anything. Like, like nothing. So anyways, but I guess we'll fix that. I'm hanging out with Andy on Tuesday for lunch in, in, uh, Atlanta. uh, before Render Activity. So pumped about that. Oscar, it's good to see you. Chris, good to see you. Pat, it's good to see you. Uh, let's see here. Uh, Angelo, it's good to see you. Um, sweet, awesome. All right, uh, Andy, let's give the people what they want, man. Who are you? What do you do? And we'll go from there.

Yeah, well, thanks for having me, and what's up everybody? I am the perm guy at Ronstadt Digital, so my job is to lead sales of Recruiting Well within the permanent specialization. And, uh, it's my first job out of college. Yeah, 14 years ago, 14 and a half years ago.

So very similar to me when I was at Vaco.

Yeah, yeah. So like Taylor mentioned it about like the, the dark glasses, same hair, whatever, like we have a very similar story.

Yeah, it's crazy.

Yeah, it's crazy wild.

But, uh, Andy sounds like he's a better golfer than I am though.

Um, maybe used to be. Uh, love golf. And I don't do it much because I got 3 kids and they're all young. And that's a little bit about me.

Yeah, I love it. I love it. All right, so a lot to dive into today. I do wanna start with kind of setting the lay of the land. And partially I'm asking you this— that shirt looks so good. That shirt looks so good.

Thank you. I try to like, I try to show up a little.

I wanna ask you this because partially selfishly, because I don't know anymore as much because people are like, Taylor, what's people hiring? What does it look like right now? What are the tech, what's hot and hot? I'm like, I see it kind of, but because of where I'm at, I'm just focused on building community. I don't see kind of what the sales side sees. So can you talk about just what you're seeing in the market, what the trends have been, what's hot?

Well, I mean, of course there's the buzzwords, right? You wanna say AI? AI's everywhere and, you know, projects and whatnot. So like, the truth is, is that, like, I think I heard this on one of the prior comments on a different GC, like, we're still seeing COBOL developer openings, you know?

So like, dude, I'm telling you, I, I had lunch with Zach at Torque and, um, what was the sales guy from Ronstadt and Raleigh? And like, like Zach was like, we should do like a total like mainframe blitz and just have a mainframe practice.

Yeah, I don't think it's going away. I did hear recently though that like there's this new AI tool that takes legacy code and turns it into core Java. Like, okay, that's cool.

I've not heard that.

That's wild, right? Yeah, like, you know, but I think that's the point to answer your question is like we hear of all the latest, greatest, huge shifts, this and that, but like the core skills are still the core skills and there are companies hiring system engineers, network engineers, DevOps, data still, you know. I've heard stuff like, you know, ETL's dead, but it's not because people are still hiring for it. They have business needs. So like, I, I would at least want to encourage everybody that it's not like there's some massive skills transformation that's going to just be like a light switch. I think it's going to be a gradual curve.

Right.

But yeah, I mean, gosh, we see everything from, you know, end user support to C-suite. Like, jobs are out there. It's just really difficult to navigate this market What?

So, so let's talk about that then. Based off your experience, how would you recommend folks navigate this time right now?

There's no one answer because not one answer applies to every nuance and circumstance. And I think that's, that's an important— right, it's an important thing. It's an important thing to note because you, you got to be a little bit of everything to everybody. And that doesn't mean you have to set aside your preference, who you are, your style. If anything, you should be showcasing that. So like having your network, have been a part of a community, being present in a positive way out in the marketplace, like all of those things matter.

Positive.

But at the same time, you know, like some companies want cover letters. Some people say like cover letter's dead. Some people wanna showcase your use of AI in a cover letter or any number of things, but others don't. And so like you kind of have to figure out like, how, how do I make sure that I'm progressing and being relevant in all of the future state? But then also all the ways that showcase who I am and my capabilities as a person.

Yeah, I love that. Have you, based, based off kind of, kind of what you're seeing right now, uh, what's, what are companies struggling with? Like, uh, you know, this is kind of more on like the sales side, I would say, of the house, but like, what are companies having trouble with? Like, what are you seeing? Um, I want to talk about the companies and the candidates, right? So from a company side, like Where are companies falling short? And I'm kind of getting this information out of you because I want to, I want to give this information to the people who watch now or in the future to kind of maybe kind of address some, some of this stuff in the interviews, right? Because I think it's kind of working backwards from the problem. But like, where, where are companies really falling short right now when it comes to hiring?

What I just heard you say, the word empathy came to mind. And being an empathetic candidate or talent or employee or employer is so important. And what I mean by that is like you got to put yourself in other people's shoes and see the same problem from a different perspective.

Yeah.

Um, without being, you know, too theoretical in that answer, it comes down to like constraints and imperatives. And I heard this term like the great hesitation is happening right now.

I like that.

Talk about that.

Yeah.

There's a ton of need. There's a ton of project. There's a lot of, uh, pressure to perform. given macroeconomics, the state of the market, et cetera. And there's a lot of companies and there's a lot of divisions within companies that are really trying to make a lot happen with a lot of constraint. So those imperatives have existed. If anything, they're increasing in terms of pressure of getting things done. But the constraint aspect— and so whenever you have constraints and imperative, it's a friction point, it's a flashpoint. And I think as a talent, as a salesperson in the marketplace, we live in that friction zone, which can be taxing.

Yeah, absolutely. So talk about— so where, where are candidates falling short right now? Like, I mean, obviously you and the team you run— how many people do you oversee?

Uh, 30.

30. Yeah, I mean, that's a fair amount of people. So what, like, what are some of the kind of the key, the pain points that you're consistently having to educate your your, your, your team on to, to prep candidates for? And what are just some of the consistent themes that keep popping up?

Oh man, uh, there's the process side, which is just always a continual learning curve, right? And like on the Discord, that's one of the things I love about Discord for Torque is that there's all these new learning sessions. And so I'm not, I'm not doing a sales pitch, but like I actually really appreciate it.

I appreciate you.

Like, like having a place to point people towards that are, that are customer unique that they can pick up on You know, like, so there's the process side, but then really it's the relational side. And like, staffing and staffing companies' job postings seem to be at an all-time commodity level.

It's just— It's unreal.

It is unreal, right? But like, that's where I think we're companies or we're sales professionals, recruiting professionals. You got to get to the human side. And I don't think that'll ever go away, no matter how fancy or great or how automated any process becomes.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Human side, investing in that, becoming a great person, being empathetic, uh, showing character and resilience, showing how you've performed, how you've seen a pro— a problem or a project outside of just a deliverable, but actually how you've contributed, right? Like those, those types of things I think really resonate because it's, it's kind of a lost art.

Yeah, absolutely. It's because— wait, can Andy see? Oh, Andy's in the Discord, y'all. Andy's in the Discord.

I'm all over the Discord.

Yeah, yeah, Andy's in the Discord. Um, I know, I love that talk. Um, uh, do people still write terrible resumes? Um, are people still messing up interviews about not researching companies? Like, what are kind of some tactical, practical stuff that you guys are seeing that you guys are still trying to, uh, correct?

Yeah, resumes, resumes are hard to write. They really are. Like, that's why you gotta have a community and a resource that can help. And I think that's one of the main, like, immediate value adds. Like, I'll go back, I'll go back to my first year, like 2011.

Yeah.

There was this architect at IBM, uh, and back then it was like you were measured on in-house interviews. I don't know if you remember that, Taylor.

Yeah.

Like getting talent to come into the, to the Ronstadt office.

Oh yeah, same, same. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We called them VACO interviews.

Yeah. So like, you know, and again, like it was always about the relationship and FaceTime. And I think there's elements of that that are still true, But this dude was like, hey, like, Andy, like, why am I here? And this is like a senior architect from IBM. I go, oh my, it was my second weekend. I go, geez. I go, look, man, I work for the world's largest staffing company. So I got a lot of access to managers and the companies that you might be interested in. And I'm pretty darn good at resumes and I have a couple suggestions. Ooh, I like that. So like from that, like something clicked in my mind around like the first point of value that I can provide to somebody is help with resumes.

Yes.

Always get resume review. Take advice. It doesn't mean it's gospel, but it definitely means it's inputs to your mind to become a better resume writer. Um, I forget who it was on here, but, um, I've even started this too where it's like every month at the end of the month I have a calendar invite of just like listing out like what did I do this month, what's noteworthy, how does that translate, so that you're not behind. But yeah, for like from a talent perspective, man, like, like some resumes are terrible and we can coach on it. By and large though, I think there's been enough touchpoints with recruiters for quite a few people and enough touchpoints with what's out in social that resumes kind of follow the same format, right?

Right.

The other big gap is just the— there's a mindset behind interacting with staffing companies or recruiters or talent acquisition.

Yeah, talk about that.

It could take you real negative, or you can see it for what it is, as, as an important and validating part or an advocacy part of the job hunt, right? And so, um, there's going to be bad interactions because there are people that just skim the surface on anything in life, 100%, that, that are all just about like spray and pray, get it done.

Yeah.

Um, I think any of us, if we're honest, within the staffing world have been there and done that. And if we're not thinking enough about how does this impact people, what is the customer experience like, you know, you really got to be able to go deeper than surface level and, and find the recruiters that are like that because they're open to feedback, they're open to honesty. Yeah, about, you know, hey, how was this interaction? Or hey, you know what, like, could you please do this better? There's a lot of really good people out in the industry that will respond to that.

You know, I have been, uh, Barrett, it's good to see you, brother. Uh, yeah, and then, um, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm down. We'll, we'll bring Andy on to, to roast some resumes, uh, in the Torque Discord. That'll be, that'll be sick. Uh, I've always been very bullish on agency recruiters as one of the cornerstones of your job search.

Yep.

I'm obviously very biased because I've been one, but I've seen the impact of what good recruiters look like. Now, the argument is, well, I can't find good recruiters. Why do you think I have this show? And why do you think I bring on folks like Andy and Jordan and You know, some, some of the folks at Vaco, there are, there are great people still at Vaco, right? Like, uh, like, and they're, they're, they're great people. I literally have an email chain of if I get a candidate locally in Nashville, I send them out to all the recruiters I used to go up against. Like, like, like, we are the cornerstone.

They—

we should be a cornerstone of your job search because it's like Andy said, we can tell you resumes. I would argue that agency recruiters are the best resume writers, hands down. I would tell you, we could tell you how to edit your LinkedIn. I, we could tell you, uh, uh, where you're at from a skillset perspective and like how you should improve to like get more money. We can tell you if you're out of price point, right? A lot of y'all ask for too much money and then wonder why you can't find a job, right? And we can kind of correct that. Thoughts?

Yeah, I mean, all that, all that's very true. The, The thing is, is that like when you're working with agency recruiters, we are talking and seeing macro trends like that I don't think you can compare to many other resources, right? And so like the reach and the— and I mean like Ronstadt's a massive, massive organization. We do business with thousands and thousands of companies and we have a history of placing tens of thousands of people per year.

Yep.

Right? Like, there's, there's a significant amount of knowledge that exists within an organization from an agency perspective that is just, again, like, it's another take on the, the job-job seeker dilemma, right? So like, you want to have a multi-pronged or a multifaceted approach towards understanding where I stand, what the opportunity is, and the resource of an agency recruiter is, is vast. So yeah, like, especially at a large company. Yep.

Uh, what— let's talk salaries. This just popped in my brain. Are they going down? I feel like they've leveled out a little bit.

Um, I, I think they've leveled out. I mean, there was a, there was a hiring frenzy, right? So like everybody like talks about '21, '22, like the glory days, and, and that was the norm, but it wasn't. Um, and I think this parlays into remote too, right? Where like that's a— it was, it was a very unique time in the market. But I, I don't see salaries going down. I, I see companies that are again constrained constraints and imperatives.

Yeah.

Market's tough, performance is tough, especially a publicly traded or a PE-backed company. Like, you got to deliver quarterly results. Like, those results have always been important in terms of hiring decision, budgeting, etc., but it feels like that intensity is ratcheted up quite a bit.

Yeah.

So again, like, I'm not— it's not a sales pitch, but like, this is where a great recruiter or a great agency can come in and advise. Like, we're— we don't get paid unless you get paid and stayed and are happy, right? So if We have a highly mutual interest that, yes, this works out in alignment. It is in alignment completely. So, you know, like, you get paid more, great, that's awesome. But at the same time, like, it's always going to come back to constraints and imperatives.

Uh, let's go to, uh, Sebastian's comment. We call him Seabass, or at least I call him Seabass in the Discord. Do you, uh, do you think having a close connection with recruiters is huge in, in the job market? I feel like they are so busy. And have so many candidates.

We are so busy, and there are—

we do have so many. You are not wrong.

But the candidates that are easy to, to keep up with are the ones that are positive and open and ask questions and want to seek counsel from the people that have the advice to give.

Yeah.

Um, you know, because like I see these posts and like, gosh, like LinkedIn— by the way, this is probably a whole different conversation— like LinkedIn feeds are crazy.

It's brutal right now. Well, I say the algorithm's awful. Like, I'm seeing something like 4 weeks. That's a— but you're probably not talking about that.

Well, I mean, maybe it is LinkedIn's fault, who knows? Because, you know, hype and, and negative speech always drives out positive speech, right? But like, sure, I think that's Gresham's Law or something like that. But, um, yeah, I mean, Sebas, to your, to your question, man, like, there are a lot of people there. Everybody's busy. At the same time, though, like, there are talent that we know and have walked with and have advocated for, and we know their story, we know their family, they know my family. Like, there are real relationships that exist, and it is a bit of a trial and error. But I think taking the right perspective into every recruiter conversation, uh, and having a framework for yourself to evaluate or to judge or to talk about your expectations, or is this something we can agree to?

Yeah.

So, like, leading the conversation, you'll find that recruiters latch onto that type of talent because that's somebody that in an interview would operate in that same way, or in a difficult conversation would operate that same way once hired. So yeah, I mean, I would— I mean, see, Bass, if you want to talk offline, I'm happy to do that too, man.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, Barrett comes in, connecting with the right recruiters is paramount. There's a lot of bad recruiters out there, but the good ones are gold. I 100% guild— uh, LinkedIn killed my guinea pig. Shut up, Emory. Uh, let's see here. Um, it's always LinkedIn's fault. Um, yeah, when I— when, when, uh, Danny comes in here, another ambassador of Torque, uh, when I talk to folks who get laid off, they always ask me if I can connect them with recruiters. I love making intros, but I wonder what advice you would give to those who are making the first contact with the recruiter.

Be curious, ask questions. I don't see enough of that where it's like, hey, here's my resume, do you have anything for me? And it's like, oh, like, I'll put you in the Rolodex, man. Like Like, yes, I will. I may not right now, but I think be curious and ask questions where, uh, and this might be something to showcase on the Discord of like, how do you, how do you build a network of quality recruiters and how do you distinguish?

We should talk about that.

Yeah, I feel like, I mean, that could be a whole series honestly, because like it's nuanced.

It's so nuanced.

But like it comes down to your ownership of your predicament or your, your anticipated outcome.

Yeah.

And that's not to, to just blame shift or like victim blame, because a lot of times when people need a recruiter, they're in a— it's a really tough spot. But all that said, first contact with recruiter is say, hey, like, how do you, how do you prefer to interact with talent? Like, what can I do as a talent to stand out in your mind and be at the top of your list?

Love that, right? So like, we, we should come up with questions to equip people. We'll do that.

I'll—

I will put that on my Ever-growing to-do list. Um, yeah, no, that sounds great. I think, yeah, I would, I would look at recruiters less of find me a job, which is, which is kind of what we're building at Torque, right? Which is kind of like the underlying theme where it's like we're trying to give back even if we can't find you a job.

Well, like, like staffing's so much about timing, right?

Like, like all timing.

No recruiter can control timing or budgets of a client. like, we're all in that friction zone, right? Like I mentioned, constraints and imperatives. So like, we all operate in that gray space. That said, like a, like a 2-way platform— like think Uber or think Airbnb or any of the other things that, you know, have, have, you know, houses for rent and people looking for houses to rent— like, you can—

Right.

Like, Torque is a place to, to more closely not only like build your community Upskill yourself, find people that can advocate for you, but, but also be like way more accessible, right? So like, that's, that's frankly, that's— I mean, you see that everywhere. All the big companies are doing that in the staffing industry, that platform thing. But like, the secret sauce is the community because—

Yeah.

I said this very early in the conversation, all the technology in the world might speed up a process or make things more efficient, but it'll never replace a human helping a human. Or the need to be like, ah, like, I'm really discouraged today. I gotta talk to somebody. Or does anybody else see this? Like, that cannot be replaced.

No, cannot be replaced. Uh, let me, let, let me kind of pivot the conversation a little bit. You know, obviously you've been at Ronstadt for a very long time. Um, you know, I— folks like Andy are a unicorn. Um, being, being able to grind it out from an agency recruiting side as long as Andy has to, to kind rise up the ranks is, is incredibly impressive. Like, I know the people that watch this who aren't in the staffing industry do not know, but to, to be at one place for 14 years out of college is a unicorn, to be honest with you. We've still been at Vaco. Things didn't get weird. But all that being said, I'm here for a reason though, which I'm pumped about. Um, talk about what are some things that you think have been your secret sauce and how you've gotten to where you're at that potentially other people could pick up?

When I was fresh out of school and I was looking across industries, like, you know, I was one of those people, it's like, you know, you go to school because that's what you're supposed to do, and then you don't— you exit school not knowing what you want to do.

Yeah, yeah, I know.

Um, which is like, I think everybody's like villain origin story in terms of like getting into staffing is like, I didn't know what I want to do and staffing found me. And like, that's true.

That's it.

in that space before starting at Randstad, I really discovered like I, I wanted, I wanted a shot where like my effort could be rewarded, where I could be myself and have fun in the workplace, and I could genuinely help people. So like I wanted like the return on help cycle to be pretty immediate because I was looking at like financial planning or something. It's like, well great, like, you know, you, you're gonna retire in 40 years, I'll feel like I help you in 40 years. But like I really wanted that return on help to be there.

Yep.

Um, and like those career anchors like have remained true. And so like for me, you know, it kind of sounds silly, maybe you haven't heard the like term career anchor in a while, but I would say like I define those and I've been able to latch on and like feel like I'm being, you know, invested in and thriving and I get to exercise those things. And I've added to them over the years too, where it's like I want to lead leaders, I want to build character through the rigor of staffing.

Sure.

And through the interaction with people. And like there's, you know, I want to grow in my business acumen, I want to you know, obviously lead well. And, you know, all of those things have remained true here. So it's one of those things where it's like, despite, uh, the headwind of the difficulty of, uh, an ever-changing, you know, marketplace, an ever-changing and growing company, you still get to be yourself and have fun.

Yeah.

And that— I think that's been my secret, frankly, is like, I've, I've always been myself. I heard you say, um, I heard you say this on a prior talk or show somewhere, but like, like this concept of dualism where like I'm one person in work and a different person out of work. Yeah, that has always like really repulsed me.

Yeah.

Um, and I just want to be myself where I'm at, and I've been able to do that here.

I love that. I love that. What, what do you think— what are some maybe 3, um, 3, uh, not adjectives, that's not the right word, like action items, like 3 kind core characteristics that people could say Andy did this, I want to try to do— apply this in, in, in, in my career, in my life, to, to, to, to have longevity?

Oh man, that's a tough one. Yeah, uh, I don't know. I, I don't, I don't want to like talk about myself too much.

No, that— you're— I'm interviewing you, dude. I'm giving you permission.

I'm giving— I know, I want to ask you the same thing, but I won't. Um, stop. Yeah. I don't know if I'll give you 3, but the first thing, the first thing that comes to mind is like, you gotta have a higher purpose.

Yeah.

And any sort of, of like, you know, like result-oriented position where like you were, you were responsible for producing, for having KPIs, and that's just about every role out in the, the business world, but like You can't let headwind, or you can't let a bad season define who you are. And so I think like that higher purpose—

Love that.

And knowing what you're growing towards, who you are, what your worth is despite what, you know, numbers on a paper say for a week or a day. Um, I was so lucky to find that at a pretty young age.

Yep.

And I was really lucky to be able to apply that and like get me through some tough seasons here. Um, but, but I mean, another thing is, is like, know your value, know your worth, know who you are, and know that like, at the end of the day, like, if, if a team or an organization or even a recruiter you're working with doesn't see that, like, that's okay.

Yeah.

It's also their loss, like, in a humble way, right? Like, like, not like I'm better than everybody else, but just simply like, I know what I'm good at, I know what I've developed, I know who I am as a person, and, and Nothing can shake that.

Yep.

Um, like, like, I think maybe mindset's a good word to describe that.

Yeah, yeah, all that.

Yeah, like just, just having a, a fortified mindset and a sense of self-worth. I love that.

I love that. That's awesome. Um, uh, it's so funny, Andy is cooking. I love it. Um, all right, so as we wrap up here, um, Wanted to see if there's anything else that we haven't covered that you want to talk about. I don't know if you want to talk about community, power of it. I mean, you talked about a little bit of it, um, but I didn't know if there's anything else that maybe popped in your brain that, that we weren't able to get to.

Um, well, I mean, dude, I think the first time we talked, we were talking about golf. Oh yeah. And, uh, I was like, gosh, like this community I was involved in during the pandemic called Random Golf Club, I was like, this feels so much like RGC.

Yeah.

And Uh, like, think of— I don't know, like, I, I live up here in my head and I have like these like incredible comparisons of like what's happening in the market to my life, to the business world, right? I just— I'm, I'm a weird dude.

Yeah, same, same.

Like, I, I think about like technology and AI and there's so much fear associated with it. And frankly, like, I think of the pandemic and I think of, you know, everybody isolating and insulating And how much good comes from a community. And I apply that towards, you know, the unknown in the tech space and all the benefits, all the great things that, that new technology has to offer for productivity, efficiency, you know, everything.

Yeah.

Um, it's such a balancing act where, like, if you're not acutely aware of, like, your headspace and your heart space in the face of those types of things, whether it's a pandemic or whether it's tech changes. And then having a plan from that, like, very centered place of, okay, like, I'm going to be okay, but like, how do I make sure that I am preventing not being okay from happening? Like, I think about that kind of stuff all the time, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Like, from a community perspective, like, I, I believe firmly that having a group of people to do life with that are related or interconnected with what you do professionally will be one of the biggest game changers for the next 5 years in our business.

I agree. I agree. Yeah. I mean, I've said this. I said, I think you're gonna see an explosion of community-based roles in organizations over the next 3 to 5 years. Yeah, totally. I feel like there is a burnout of a certain type of marketing. Uh, there's, there's— I think people are just wanting more, um, than I think what companies are just offering. Um, you know, again, I pull a lot of my stuff from the D2C kind of founder space.

Yeah.

Um, but like, again, like, people, you know, I'm not running a run club because your boy can't run, but when we got I mean, prime example, I'm just gonna call what it is. There are 8 people getting Torque tattoos at Render. There is a brand that I follow that was not begging. He wasn't begging, he was just like, hey, if anybody gets a tattoo of Cadence, he goes, I will give them a year subscription. He's having to give out a year subscription for people to get a tattoo. there are people who are just getting torque gear tattoos because of the heck of it.

Yeah.

And it's like, we're already there, and, and, and, and I'm— and we're just getting started. And I'm super pumped about this, but I think, I think it's what you said. Like, I, I legitimately think, like, people want more than just being sold to.

So, well, yeah, I mean, like, there's a time and place because, like, like, you have a need or a want and you need to get something done, but But like, it's kind of like, like, how do you def— how do you put words around the things that like you can't really define? Like, yeah, uh, like a feeling or a sense of belonging, or— and like, how do you, how do you measure that, right? Like, as an organization, like, sometimes it just comes down to trust and to time with people and to the quality of relationship. And like, those things will never change, you know? And like, I would tell anybody too, like, if if you are feeling isolated or insulated because of, of where you find yourself in the job market, be open, be vulnerable. Like, like all leadership starts from a place of vulnerability.

Love that.

And I think there's so much good that comes from people doing life with other people. That's irreplaceable.

Love it. That was awesome. That shirt is a banger. I'm assuming you meant, uh, yeah, which one?

Which one? Mine?

Yeah, which one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, all right, so Uh, wrap up here, um, because now I'm off. Believe it or not, not that y'all care, I'm gonna say it anyways, I'm off to have coffee, um, with a buddy I used to play in a band with who runs back of house for Dan and Shay, like the artist. And he like runs a recording studio. I have not seen him since we have had kids, and he's got one kid with the second one on the way. And we both grew up and we went to church together when we were in the 5th grade. So anyways, that is crazy. We're having coffee anyways. All that being said, uh, first question, um, tea or coffee?

Coffee.

Hot or cold? Hot.

God, really? I knew the question was coming. Do not shame me for this. No, you're—

I think it's awful. It's just, it's hot. It like blows in your face. It just is. Are you sweating drinking hot coffee and 90 degrees outside in Atlanta?

Don't— awful. Don't change something that's not broken, Taylor.

It's awful. It— what? It is broken.

It makes me sweat.

I don't want to sweat when I have liquids anyway. All right, I love that you came prepared. I love that.

Yeah.

Uh, next. At least you didn't say Pepsi like Pat did the other day. Were you— did you listen to that episode? Pat Clark. I was like, I was like, coffee or tea? And he goes, Pepsi. I was like, like the whole chat just like went off.

I mean, you know what, like, you do you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I love it.

Um, next question. Uh, you're not in tech, but I do want to give you the opportunity to give a shout out to other coworkers who are doing really cool stuff at Ronstadt.

Oh man. Uh, Ronstadt's changed quite a bit from like your traditional geographic-based staffing model.

Yes, which I think is smart, by the way.

Oh, totally. I agree. Um, you know, like specialization and relevancy and like being embedded in a, like an actual partner with, with different companies is amazing.

Yeah.

Um, you know, my— and this is gonna sound weird— like my boss, I've seen how she navigates, uh, like all the transformation and change. Like it, it is incredible what we're doing, and it is incredible the, the people that I see taking on new things that none of us thought of 3 years ago. And yeah, I mean, yeah, um, a buddy of mine, Adam, put something on LinkedIn yesterday that was just like mind-blowing. And I don't actually see him on LinkedIn that often, but he put something about— out about leadership, about like, it's not just strategy, it's energy. And like, that, that post has been blowing up internally. There's, there's dozens of people doing great things. There's people on my team that are blowing my mind with the success they're having this year.

Love that.

And the resolve that they're showing. like, you know, like Mary and a bunch of other folks, but I don't want to embarrass anybody by giving out names. But, uh, I mean, dude, like, it's inspiring to see in the face of a headwind, like harsh, harsh headwinds.

Yeah.

People like choosing to be happy, people choosing to show up and bring their full self to work, people, people seeing the fruits of their labor pay off. And on the other end, like, people still that haven't seen it pay off yet like bringing their best version every day. Like, that is, that is one of the most inspiring things I can think of. I love that.

I love that. Um, uh, final question. Show's called Guidance Counselor 2.0 because we had guidance counselors in middle school, high school, and college, but now as adults we don't really have them. Well, if you go back in time until young Andy out of college something, what would it be?

Oh man, uh, All the financial advice that you think you have in your head doesn't help you if it stays in your head.

Ah, love that, love that.

Save your money.

Love that. There you go. Fantastic, fantastic. Cool. All right, y'all, thank you for hanging out with us today. Uh, we are off now. I'm off next week. We are— I'm gonna be in Atlanta literally from Monday night until Saturday morning. I'm hanging out with Andy. We'll get some selfies on Tuesday. Pumped for it. Um, and, uh, you know, again, y'all have a great one. For those of you coming to Render, we'll see you next week. And, uh, Andy, appreciate you, my guy. Stay on so I can say bye to you backstage. But y'all have a good one, and, uh, we'll see y'all in 2 weeks. Peace.

Later.