How To Get a Job Off of X/Twitter w/Staff Eng, Jacob Evans

Here we go, here we go.

Alrighty, good morning everybody, happy Thursday. Uh, full transparency, I've been a little sick, um, the last 2 days. I had a massive fever last night. I slept for 10 hours last night.

Wow.

So yeah, uh, feeling better this morning. Uh, would not miss this live with Jacob, so pumped for this. It's gonna be a great conversation. But, you know, again, for those of you tuned in, welcome. Please say hey. We'd love to hear from you. I always tell folks, right, this is a networking platform. We're gonna talk about networking today. Jacob and I were chatting backstage. He's got a lot of great pointers and tips and stories that we're gonna talk about today. And it's all around networking. Shocking, right? And so please say hey. We'd love to hear from you. Again, what I tell folks, I've been doing this thing for 5 years. And what I tell folks is like, I would highly recommend, uh, for you to network off the back of me. Um, that's kind of what we're doing at Torque in general, is just allowing a place to bring on guests, for you to network with guests, for you to say, hey, um, you know, slide in Jacob's DMs, be like, yo, Jacob, it was good to see you on Taylor's show today. Um, I mean, we're going to talk about how to build meaningful connections today, and, and I'm sure Jacob can attest that's the first step, uh, in developing meaningful connections. So please say, hey, we'd love to hear from you. Next thing, again, wanna give a shout out to Appwrite. I'm a part of their Heroes Program. I always joke I'm probably the only technical guy, non-technical guy on a technical Heroes Program. Appwrite's just released a lot of great stuff. I don't know what it all means, but it seems cool. So you should go check them out. Love the DevRel team out there. And also too, you know, it's so funny that Jacob joined kind of a community-first platform. In the e-com space, we're community first in the staffing space. Um, so we do a lot of things in the community with these streams and resume reviews and, and the chat. Honestly, our Discord is so crazy that I can't even keep up anymore. Um, so if you want to check that out, check out tork.community. It kind of runs through everything. And finally, if you want to be— if you want, I text, uh, my texting community every day when I go live. Um, so if you want to text this number, 615-235-5650, this is my number. Um, and I'll get you looped in, um, to that texting thread, um, or that texting community. And I shoot out texts every time I go live. Uh, so yeah, cool. All right, that's enough. We got some people tuned in this morning. Jordan, it's good to see you. Christopher Emmett, what's going on? OG, you know what, you know what, that's where I remember you from— Coder Dads. That's where I remember you from. That's it, that's it. Uh, Amelia, it's good to see you this morning. Mark, Ricardo. Chris, double Chris, Jeremy, it's good to see you. Jeff, it's good to see you. Taya, it's great to see you as well. We got some people tuning in again. As always, please keep saying hey, we'd love to hear from you. All right, Jacob, let's give the people what they want, man. Who are you? What do you do now? And we'll go from there.

Uh, yeah, so I mean, my name's right there. Uh, I currently am a staff engineer at, at, uh, wop.com. Um, which is, as, uh, as you mentioned, is a community-first, uh, e-commerce platform.

They're hot. Yeah, hot right now.

Yes, yes, there, there is a, uh, very, very, um, uh, just popular platform right now. Yeah, and it's actually growing in popularity in a lot of places too that, that is just very awesome to see, um, various countries and whatnot. So, uh, yeah, I mean, uh, you know, I've, I've worked at Cloudflare where people know me from, um, because I was— I am— it was and am still a very strong advocate for, for, uh, Cloudflare workers and the products there.

I love it.

Um, And yeah, that's where I'm at right now.

Cool. Love it, man. All right. Lot to dive into. Actually, I'm literally going live with one of my buddies who just took a job at Cloudflare. So there you go. So lot to go over today. Let's set the story of how this all came about, kind of when you jumped on backstage with me, set the stage, talk about where you were on your job search, how you got tired of LinkedIn, and then kind of what kind of transpired from there. Then I'll start asking you follow-up questions.

Yeah, so, um, I had reached out to my friend Theo and was like, you know, what do you, what do you think I should do? Um, particularly early on when I was, I was, I was, you know, doing the good old job boards.

Easy apply.

Easy apply.

Which you said was not easy.

Which is not— no, it's not easy anymore. Um, basically every recruiter wants you to fill fill out your resume like 3 times. But that's nuts. Um, Theo was like, oh, let me, let me help you out, posted a post. And, uh, I got a, a lot of calls from that one where he could just kind of, kind of, uh, you know, redirected a lot of those, those DMs he got to me, um, that seemed promising. And—

Yeah.

Those were really great. Um, some of them were still actually in process, uh, while I was, um, uh, still interviewing and plugging away on like LinkedIn and stuff.

Yeah.

But the job boards, this is the thing, I applied for 2 weeks straight. Um, and this is after I was— I left, I was no longer with Clerk. So, right, um, I'm, I'm like getting kind of like into that month area of, of, of job boards, and I was like, yeah, not hearing from any of these job boards.

Yeah, yeah.

And so it's like, okay, Theo's post got me like X— like, like X, that's funny— a bunch of, uh, uh, uh, uh, interviews. um, phone calls at the very least. The job boards got me 1 out of like 100 applications, 150 applications. It was absolutely insane.

Yeah.

The ratio that, that was happening. And I'm actually friends with a recruiter at Cloudflare. Me and him have like a coffee meeting every, every week. And, um, like, he was also like, he's like, oh yeah, you know, these, the ATS systems are absolutely going insane right now because of, you know, all this New AI technology is coming in. And I know, um, so like, as much as we used to complain about our resumes getting kind of blackholed in, in these like conventional, uh, job application systems, uh, they're like a million times worse now apparently.

Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's bad.

And so I was like, well, this isn't working. I'm like, I've, I've built up a lot of— I'm not nearly as big on the platforms as Theo is, like Twitter.

And yo, Theo's an animal, dude. I mean, that— he's not even— he's S tier for sure.

Exactly. And I was like, you know, maybe B tier, C tier could do something here.

Yeah.

And so I was like, I've built up a lot of good goodwill with, uh, people on Twitter. Let me just post something and see what happens. And so I did, and I actually got, uh, quite a, quite a few responses and calls from that as well, which was absolutely insane. Uh, uh, definitely made me, um, a little, you know, feel— yeah, yeah, I feel good. Yeah, yeah.

Um, you're still putting in the work.

Exactly. Um, and so, uh, During that time, I, like I said, I was still interviewing with some of the, the leads that I got, uh, from, uh, Theo's. But I— one of them, uh, I got from my post was when, uh, Aiden Bai actually had like reposted, um, my, my, uh, you know, announcement.

Yeah.

And it actually came down that they, uh The CTO reached out to me from, from WAP, and because of one of your friends' posts, not Theo's.

I, I, I want to drive that home here.

Yeah, so yeah, it was— I posted my post. Yeah, Aiden Bai like retweeted it.

Retweeted it. Yeah.

And they reached out to me because they follow Aiden very closely. Um, uh, they like him a lot, and The CTO got on a call with me, very excited after that call about, you know, my Cloudflare experience and all these things that, like, I was like, he's like, oh, can you take a look at this? And I was like, oh yeah, I have ideas on this, this, and this. And then I talked to their CEO, who was very, very cool, very interesting individual. Definitely enjoyed that conversation a lot.

Yeah.

got kind of philosophical, which I was very, very happy about. That was a very fun call, a very fun interview call.

Yeah.

And by the end of that call, he was just like, you should come out to New York and meet the team.

Okay.

And, uh, my, my, my, my, my family, my wife and my parents, have, have, uh, jokingly said this before, but they said it especially after this. They're like, you have like the most main character syndrome, uh, ever. And it's all because you, you get— you see these opportunities and, and, and you just say yes. Yeah, like, we should talk about that.

Like, the power of just saying yes.

Yeah, he's like, you should come to New York. I was like, sure, okay, sure, let me talk to my wife, but sure.

Yeah, yeah, you gotta talk to the wife. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Uh, and that was, that was like, that was, uh Huge. After, um, I went out there, uh, I met the team, worked with them for a few days. Great office, great, you know, great engineering team overall. Everybody in the company was super friendly. They didn't even know who I was. I was just walking around the office.

They're like, are you serious?

Who are you? And I was like, um, you know, uh, Sharky, the CTO, is like invited me here and Yeah, I love working for a couple days and they're like, oh great, let me show you around. I'm like, somebody already did like 5 times now. Um, thank you though. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, it was, it was a really great experience and then got a job offer.

That's awesome, man. That's awesome. All right, so, so now the stage is set. So much to unpack here. I think the first thing is, is like, um, man, where do we start?

Let's—

so, so let's talk— well, let's, let's, let's rewind a little bit more. Which is what you told me backstage about your boot camp person telling you that X was not good for your career. Can you talk about that?

Oh yes. Okay, so I went to a coding boot camp. Uh, um, it was, uh, a very interesting experience. Um, the, the, the, the funny thing was, is they had like this growth career, uh, manager person there. Yeah, their entire job was like to prepare you for interviews, get you ready for, uh, your career and all this other stuff. And what I was told during that time was like, go, go to meetups locally. And I was in Seattle at the time.

Yeah. Um, where are you right now, by the way?

Uh, I'm in, uh, Gig Harbor, Washington.

Okay, cool, sweet.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's away from the cities, but okay. Uh, I was actually commuting, um, from a small town across. I'd had to take the— I had to take the ferry to Seattle every, every day. Yeah, yeah, go to the coding boot camp. Yeah, um, but anyways, the, uh The meetups were great. Somebody at the meetup, one of the meetups that I went to, is like the Amazon one or Axon or something. They were like, you should join Tech Twitter.

Um, okay.

It's super like, there's like lots of people there that are very interested in like the stuff you're talking about right now. And, um, I was like, okay, like, I'm not really— like, I wasn't big on Twitter before. And yeah, like, exactly, it's a Hacktoberfest. Um, it's not— it wasn't really like something I was—

I didn't know how to use Twitter. Yeah, I was on it and I was like, how?

What? Yeah, it was, it was, uh, it was, it was interesting. But so I started trying out the tech Twitter thing and it kind of grew in the coding boot camp. But like everybody was like, oh yeah, let's, let's, you know, more people started getting on tech Twitter and that career growth person that was in charge of like our interview stuff and our career stuff told us it was a waste of time. Said like, hey, it's like a quick fix.

It's a terrible career.

It makes you feel like you're doing a lot of, a lot of networking, it makes you feel like you're doing a lot of work, but it's short-term. And it's— there's no real long-term gains, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, all this stuff that was just like, even with what I knew back then, which was not a lot, that felt wrong. I was like, yeah, that doesn't sound right.

Not ideal.

Digital networking is just as valuable as physical networking.

100%.

And even then, I kind of knew that.

Yeah.

So I kept, I kept working on my networking in Twitter. But what I focused on primarily was trying to have like genuine connections with people, not just like posting memes and, you know, doing normal social media stuff that people generally do.

Right.

Uh, yeah, Jerome Hardaway. We met on Twitter.

Yep, Jerome's awesome.

Like, we, we basically, uh, um, like, he saw that I was security forces, so I was in the Air Force as a cop, and so was he. And we're like, hey, we're both in tech. How'd that happen, dude?

And that's the power of it, man. Real quick, I wanna, I wanna rewind just a little bit. How does one get involved in tech Twitter, right? Because you're not just like dumped into tech Twitter. Yeah, you kind of got to go find it. So can you talk about how somebody like finds tech Twitter?

Yeah, so hashtags aren't a thing anymore. They haven't been since like early 2010s. Like, yeah. Um, so what, what, what I ended up doing was I kind of just like would find somebody who seemed like they were, uh, kind of big in this like tech Twitter, what like was like an abstract concept of tech Twitter. And for instance, like one of my initial entry points was like Kenzie Dodds.

Yeah, yeah.

And I found him and then I found all these people that at the time he was following or were following.

Did you just start following them?

And I started following people and I was like, I don't know if these people are legit, but like, we'll see.

Yeah, exactly. Yep.

Um, And on top of that, like, like stuff like where you meet, uh, certain people in like, like chat threads, right?

Yep.

And you get to, you get to talking with them. One of my, one of my favorite ways— so, uh, the creator of SolidJS, Ryan Carniato, I actually became friends with him because I DM'd him because he mentioned something about Magic: The Gathering in Yeah, yeah, card game. Yeah. And I was like, yo, you like Magic: The Gathering?

Yeah.

And he was like, yeah. And I was like, me too.

Isn't that crazy?

And we just started— we were in Twitter DMs just talking about Magic: The Gathering for like hours. Crazy. And so like, people are like, how do you know Ryan Carniato? I'm like, not tech.

Yeah, exactly. Well, I have a tweet going out today you know, because like Render's coming up, the big conference, and a lot of people are gonna be there. I was like, most of the time people remember you not because of the technical stuff that you talk about. Yeah, like it's actually like, like your connection with Jerome, with you being both in the Air Force or Magic: The Gathering. Like most people vibe with folks not because of what they're doing from a day-to-day perspective.

Yeah, um, I like— I, I mentioned to you because you're like, where do I know you from? I'm like, I did do Twitter Spaces for like I don't know, it was like 3, 4 years straight, uh, 3 days a week.

So like, yeah, that's aggressive. What, what prompted you to do that? I'm curious.

Uh, COVID. Yeah, so I started it— yeah, I started it like, uh, like near the end of the lockout because I was going to the gym and Twitter Spaces had just like come out and I was like Oh, there's nobody here. Why don't I just like— I'm on like an elliptical or a Comet Bike, or I'm doing like a static, like, like I'm not moving and doing weights and stuff. So like, why, why don't I like do this Twitter Space thing and talk to people from my, my community, from, uh, you know, tech Twitter that—

Yeah.

Whatnot while I'm doing this. And I, you know, did the code, code, code in life is— was the space's name. And, uh, the first like week there was like nobody. I just like had this open.

Yeah, I mean, listen, like, yeah, it takes a while.

Yeah, yeah. Like a couple weeks in though, you know, there was like 4 or 5 people were just talking, chit-chatting. And the vibe I was going for is like, hey, why don't we just talk about like, like work stuff that we're wanting to complain about and Uh, tech stuff that when we want to complain about, and, uh, life stuff we want to complain about. Kind of like when you finish up work. So I was at the gym, right? Like when you finish up work and, uh, you go like to the bar with your buddies afterwards from work, right? Everybody just kind of like, hey, you want to go grab something to eat and maybe a drink or something? It's like, yeah, sure. And then you all go there and you all complain about whatever the hell you want to complain about.

Yeah, yeah.

That's the vibe I was going for because we were all missing that socializing aspect of, of life from lockdown.

Sure, I love that. Um, uh, there was a question here and I think it's a good question. Let's see, where is it? Dave chimes in here. Is it possible to have a presence on tech Twitter and avoid the toxicity that seems to flourish there these days?

That toxicity has flourished every day since it's existed.

Yeah.

Um, The, the, the way to do that, because like when I joined, every, every couple months there would be like this, like we called it Twitter drama.

Yeah.

Okay, and every couple months there would be like this huge Twitter drama when I joined. It hasn't happened nearly as bad.

Yeah.

But, um, still occasionally happens.

Sure.

You see some stuff on there and you're just like, I'm not touching that with a 10-foot pole.

Yeah.

And generally what I say is, is the best way to, uh, uh, avoid it is just interact with things in tech Twitter that, that you want to interact with. Don't— correct, you don't have to interact with— correct, the toxic feeds.

I mean, the algorithm is pretty good and it will push what you engage with.

Yeah. And on top of that, um, a lot of this negativity gets pushed because people are engaging with it.

Yeah.

Um, and there's nothing, nothing forcing you to engage with it. And the less you engage with it, uh, the less time it spends on your feed.

Yeah. And I, and I'll tell you this, I mean, this is, you know, I, I see Jordan here saying that like, you know, he can't really do X, he's barely got time for LinkedIn. And, you know, I, I think here's the deal. If there is a social component to any platform, there is going to be some sort of toxicity.

Yeah.

And I think like you just have to kind of deal with it. And I know that's like maybe not the best answer, but like you kind of just gotta let it blow over. And, you know, and I understand people get it in waves more than others, but for me, like I see it, I don't engage with it and I move on. Right. So it's, it's, I think it's, I mean, LinkedIn has its own craziness, right? X has got its own craziness. I don't think Bluesky's got enough engagement to have a craziness. That's just my hot take. Uh, but, uh, yeah, so again, I, I mean, unfortunately, I think, I think you're gonna have to deal with it. But for me, that's why I am key of like following the people I wanna follow, post the things I wanna post, and then not use it for anything else.

Yeah. Um, the, the, the value really comes from, uh, just fostering the connections that you do make that are really, uh, you know, healthy and, and productive and, uh, you know, have some sort of meaning for you. Like, like you said, like, not everything is, um, as positive or, or, uh, like the, like the Magic: The Gathering or, or, or having the, the military, uh, uh, shared background.

Sure.

Sometimes it was like how I met Theo when he, he, uh, first got like real serious on Twitter.

Yeah.

Um, he started using it more, and me and him were in Tanner Lindsley's Twitter Space, and this is like before his company even— like, he was— he was— I think he was just starting it.

Yeah.

And me and him were just on, on Tanner Lindsley's Space. We're both friends with Tanner. We didn't know that we were mutual friends. Uh, and Tanner was talking about, I think, React Location, like the early concept of TanStack Router. And me and Theo just started arguing about something, and everybody was just like, are you guys okay? Like, is this— are you good? And we're like, oh, great. Like, this is great. This is a great discussion, right? We kept arguing and realized that we both really enjoyed having this like super passionate, deep discourse. Yeah, discourse. Exactly. And that's how we ended up becoming friends, was arguing on, uh, Taylor Winkley's space. And, uh, Theo started coming to my spaces, and, um, uh, he, he was a co-host for almost the entire time.

That's awesome. That's so cool. That's so cool. Yeah, let's talk, because, because I definitely don't want to miss out on it, um, as we, you know, are at like 12 minutes left, um, Talk about like building genuine connections, right? I mean, you talked about that backstage. You've already mentioned it, you know, about Magic, uh, you know, with Jerome, with, with Air, you know, with the Air Force, with Theo, with arguing, which I'm not an arguer, so I could never do that. But if that's your— if, if that's your taste, go ahead. If that's what you can do.

Yeah.

Um, I mean, what, what does it look like for you, right? So like, you know, you didn't know how— I didn't know how to do Twitter. Right? And now it's like, it's like Danny Castro said on here, now like I'm all over it. But like, can, can you talk about like the levels of like follow a person, like and comment, slide? I mean, do you have, I mean, do you have kind of a little bit of a method to the madness?

Yeah, so, um, obviously engaging on people's posts, especially if they're, you know, something that's interesting and you can spark a discussion with is, is definitely a very low bar for an entry point. Um, one of the things that you can do, and how I actually became friends with Kenzie Dodds, uh, and helped with his, his early Discord community when it was still like KCD and it was just starting up—

Yep.

Um, was I was engaging on his, uh, uh, on his Twitter constantly, especially stuff around his like test, like JavaScript testing and his courses and whatnot. And I was engaging constantly with him on there. And I've, back then, and I still do push this concept of you can have mentors without this, this, this traditional concept of like, they need to spend X amount of time Like, talk about that.

Yeah. Yeah.

And in reality, you could just use them as a role model and engage with them on these platforms that they have already decided, I'm gonna spend this time on this platform like X, sharing ideas, sharing thoughts. And you can engage them there instead of being like DMing somebody and being like, hey, will you mentor me?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You don't need their permission. Just, just engage with them on the platform that they're already willing to engage on with everybody.

Yeah.

Um, just get their attention by, by posting and commenting and liking and being like, hey, I— this— I feel that this is, you know, wrong for this reason, or I really like this idea for these reasons. And I actually built a relationship with Kensi Dodds through just like this concept of, of Uh, uh, you know, passive mentorship and eventually ended up helping him with his, uh, you know, Discord community. And, and, uh, I even helped him launch— uh, I was part of like the, the, uh, the Epic Web Dev launch. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I actually emceed that this year. It was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun. Um, talk, talk about Discord for a second, right? I mean, you know, I— you know, you, you were— you know, you had the foresight to help Kent to network, right? You know, this is a weird analogy, and I'm gonna say this out loud, but, um, bear with me here. You know how like you have like, uh, the whale—

the whale—

the— it's like a whale, basically. You have these whales, right? And then you have like these little fish that swim along the whales and eat kind of the leftover food.

Yeah, yeah. I feel like cleaner fish.

Yeah, yeah. I feel like that's kind of like what networking is a little bit. like piggyback off the whale until you could— you, I mean, you could stay piggybacking off the whale for as long as you want, or you can go off and then do your own thing. So I don't know, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.

Um, I like that metaphor.

Uh, I appreciate that. That just came out of the blue, man.

That, that's very— it's a very interesting way of looking at it, and I enjoy it. Um, I definitely was a cleaner fish, and you know, uh, Kent C. Dodds was definitely a whale. But the, the, the, the funny thing was, is, uh, how I initially met Kent C. Dodds was when I worked at a tiny startup. It was very first job out of coding boot camp, and they were like, you're in charge of social media because you're the only one that understands any of this stuff. And I was like, no, I don't.

I know.

And he actually— I, I was posting stuff uh, for the company in comments and whatnot. And something I had said or done, um, got Kenzie Dodds to block the company account. And so I go on my personal, I'm like, please, for the love of God, don't block that company account. I need this job, man.

Yeah.

And, and he was super nice about it. He's like, hey, could you just stop spamming comments? Or whatever it was I was doing that he found really annoying. And I was like, like, whatever you want, boss.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, so I— that was, that was, that was my entry point to meeting Kent C. Dodd. Like, it's funny because like people are like, oh, like you must have had this really great first interaction with Theo and Kent. It's like, no, I was arguing with Theo and I got blocked by the confrontation that started these relationships.

Which is wild.

Yeah, but it was a start, right? It was a start of a conversation, and it's up to you to continue it in a, a healthy, meaningful way, right? Don't— I, I could have also been like, hey, thanks for unblocking us, um, can you mentor me now? And he would be like, no.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, not at all.

It would have been productive Uh, uh, for either of us. And that's kind of the, the approach I take is just like, what is the, uh, the, you know, the most, uh, healthy and, and, and productive way that you could communicate?

Yep. I love that. I love that. Um, all right. So as we wrap up here, let's put a bow on X/Twitter. What is your general, like, last words of encouragement, why you should be on it? Etc. Just let's, let's tie a bow in this.

Find meaningful relationships on Twitter. Uh, it's, it's not just a drama meme shitposting engine. You can find meaningful connections with people and foster those connections. Uh, it, it takes a little bit of work. Um, yeah, but it's worth it. I love it.

I love it. Um, all right, so I kind of do a rapid fire with every guest. Um, uh, so first question I have to ask, coffee or tea?

Uh, I like, uh, sweet iced tea, and then I also enjoy coffee.

Do you do— all right, so coffee, is it hot or cold?

Iced, iced or hot? Very, like, 99% of the time it's hot.

Okay, that's, that's gross, but that's okay. Um, I have this whole thing that I feel like iced coffee, really, you can actually taste the coffee. You're just drinking hot liquid.

Uh, yes, if you like this concept, you should— there's a podcast called, uh, Ologies.

Okay.

And one of the ones that she brings on is a person who specializes— he's a scientist and specializes in coffee.

No way.

Yes. And one of the things that they, that they say is they actually don't fully understand the science behind why hot coffee, uh, breaks down, uh, when— as it's getting colder and starts tasting bad. They, they know it's some sort of chemical reaction. Yeah, but Iced coffee doesn't do that because when you, when you essentially you're cold shocking it and it, and it doesn't break back down, uh, like after X amount of time.

Yep.

Uh, and lose that taste.

That's, yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah. We, my guest yesterday said Pepsi. I was like, whoa, that was a wild— he threw everybody for, uh, for a ride yesterday. Um, I love that. Next thing I wanna, I wanna ask you Um, when it comes to anybody in the community who's doing cool stuff, who, who do you want to give flowers to? Oh man.

Oh, who is— man, you got, you got, you got me on this one.

I know, I know. People are like, why don't you prep me for this? Because I just want the name that pops in your head first.

I don't have any names popping in my head first. Oh, you know what? No, that, that is a good one. Sam Goodwin.

What's, what's, what's Sam do?

He's creating Alchemy, and I, and I, and I— that popped up on my radar super duper early, and I have been absolutely, uh, uh, just, just pushing hard, um, uh, his, his, his work and stuff on, on Twitter right now.

Okay.

Alchemy is a JavaScript-based, like, infra.

Okay.

Like, think like Terraform. So, yep, infra as code. And he is doing an extraordinary job of nailing Cloudflare's API with this, this Uh, infrastructure as code. And the API— the— his, his, his, uh, API just has like a really nice DX to it.

Okay.

Um, and it's starting to finally get more attention and more traction from like the Cloudflare people, which is like what I was really hoping would happen.

Sure, sure.

Um, I really, I'm really hoping they just like, like pick him up or offer him a job. That's kind of, it's kind of like the Would be really sick.

But yeah, yeah, you kind of answered my second question, which is like, what tools or technologies are you messing with that, or you're finding pretty interesting? Is there anything else you're kind of tinkering with?

Um, I mean, if, if you're not to some degree tinkering with or, or interacting with, uh, LLM technologies right now, you're probably, you're probably behind. Um, I don't say that ever. And like, like the years of technologies that have come out, I've never been like, like, you should be using this technology or you're falling behind. Um, this one, this one, this one kind of— yeah.

Yeah, this one, this one's around. You may need to, you may need to finally look into this one.

Take a gander. Like, I'm using—

take a gander.

Yeah, I'm using Warp Terminal.

Yeah, we, we did a meetup with them in Denver.

Yeah, I'm doing— I'm using the free version though. I'm not paying for that.

Sure.

Um, I am using Cursor and I am paying Cursor.

Okay.

And I am using T3 Chat, which is Theo's, and I am paying those, those 2 I am paying for. But nice. Um, yeah, the rest, the rest of it I just use for free. And then I, uh, occasionally when I want to tinker with something, I'll like— I have like an account with like OpenAI and I'll Uh, uh, pay for cups of tokens, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

$5 with a lot of the mini models, $5 goes a long way if you're just like tinkering.

Yeah, yeah, 100%, 100%. All right, last question as we wrap up here. I gotta bounce to another meeting. Um, we had guidance— this show's called Guidance Counselor 2.0 because we had guidance counselors in middle school, high school, and college, but now as adults we don't really necessarily have them to turn to and ask questions.

What would—

if you go back in time and tell young Jacob something, biggest piece of career advice, what would it be?

Um, get into tech sooner. I, I, I— that's a— that's actually hard to say because I— a lot of my experiences before tech, I think, built on like how I view communities because I'm absolutely bullish on communities from where I grew up. and places that I've, I've been and what I've been a part of. You know, I— me and my brother tried to start up a vinyl record store in Seattle.

Okay.

Yeah, we were like a block away from Pike Place Market. Like, we were—

Oh wow.

We were— yeah, we were popping. Um, we had live music shows every weekend, which like—

That's sick.

The apartment buildings did not like us, but—

Probably not. No, no.

Um, you know, my military experience and all that, that all also affected how, how I, I view things. But it's like I started off doing like script kiddie stuff and like hacking— not hacking, but like cheating in like Counter-Strike, you know, when I was a kid. And it's like everybody's like talks about how they started off there and that's how that turned into their tech career very early on. And it's like I started off there and I went like in the longest detour possible. Um, but I think there was value in that detour as well. So— I love that. I, I guess I would just be like, um, make mistakes harder.

Well, it's interesting you said that because literally my interview yesterday with Pat Clark, who's director of engineering, I mean, we kind of talked about this whole thing where you're gonna learn more from messing shit up.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, like, break shit, get, get used to being comfortable, um, with that. Like, I think, I think there's a lot of value to that.

100%. 100%.

I love it. I love it. Well, y'all, thank you again for hanging out. Let's say, Jacob, stay on so I can say bye to you backstage real quick. Um, but y'all have a great one. Um, that is it. We have Laid Off Lounge today. Um, so that's in our Discord. So, um, I had a question, people like, do I need to be laid off to be there?

You do not.

It's just a general Q&A around people in the job search and how they can help, um, or how we can help. So that's at 11 AM Central. Um, so here in an hour. Um, so I'll see you over in the Torque Discord, torque.dev/discord. at 11 AM Central to just kind of answer your questions around the job search. Jacob, thank you, my friend. Everybody go follow Jacob on Twitter, send him a DM, tell him hey, and, uh, we'll see you on the Discord here in a bit. Peace.