Starting Over w/Clark Sell

All righty, good morning. I am back in Nashville, Tennessee. Um, I'm not in an exotic country. Um, but I tell you what, Barcelona was great. That was a great— that, that was, that, that was great. Um, you know, it was interesting. I, I went I went to dinner with a guy that I met on another community I'm in, Next Play Community. And we had dinner and it was interesting 'cause he was saying like, he was like, Barcelona is like, he was saying, so he's big into like sociopolitical stuff, which that's way above my head. But he was like, Barcelona is like the only place where you can get like the beach next to a huge metropolitan city. He was like, Miami doesn't count because like Miami is like, there's Miami and there's like Miami Beach. And he was like, and he goes, you kind of have LA. But he was like, you know, this, you know, and then the cost of living. I tell you, I tell you this much now, granted, it's all relative because I actually Googled, well, I ChatGPT, let's be honest. But I ChatGPT like salaries, like developer salaries in Barcelona, incredibly low, right? So everything's relative, right?

Yeah, totally.

But like, You know, we, I, we were talking to this random couple beside us, like at lunch one day, and they're like, yeah, like I live right, I live like a block away and, and I pay €900 for an apartment. And I was like, if you live the block away from the beach in any place in the US, you're not paying only €900. So again, it's all relative, but Barcelona was great. Barcelona was great. Good morning, y'all.

I mean, But also it depends on what beach. You know, there are lots of lakes that—

That's fair. Lakes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You don't want to be in, but yeah, $900.

Also, I ate— a funny story— I ate the— so one of the best croissants I had was in the Barcelona airport, which was crazy. And literally I ate so many croissants, literally the waitress was like, hey, like We can't do that. We— you, you can't have another one.

Time to leave, my American friend.

I had like, I had like 7 croissants. Uh, but anyways, that's neither here nor there. But anyways, Ricardo, it's good to see you. Ross, it's good to see you stepping in before a meeting. I love it. It's good to see you, brother. Jeff, it's good to see you. Michael, Colin, it's good to see you, man. Um, welcome, uh, to the show again. Y'all please comment, say hey. We'd love to hear from you. Uh, like I always say, this is a networking event. Um, and so we don't know if you're watching unless you comment. Um, and, uh, I tell people I want this to be a networking opportunity. So slide into somebody in the DMs that's in the comments, say, hey, it was great to see you on Guidance Counselor 2.0. Network with Clark. He's, he's a wealth of information. But I always tell people, listen, if, if you've consistently shown up to my show for 5 years and you have networked with just the guests alone, you would've had a pretty expansive network. So again, Please network, say hey, we'd love to hear from you. Um, uh, we got some more people tuned in. Chris, Devon, Braden, it's good to see you. Sebastian, it's good to see you. Jordan, it's great to see you as well. Um, first off, I want to say shout out Appwrite. I'm part of the Heroes program, probably the only non-technical person on a technical Heroes program. Uh, I, I don't use their product, but I heard it's great, so you should check them out.

That is— I love the honesty.

That is my punchline. I've heard it's great. You should check it out. Also, they've like released some new stuff too. I should probably know this a little bit more, but I think like it's part of the shtick. They released a bunch of new stuff, so you should go check them out. Uh, it looks exciting. If I was a developer, it looks exciting.

Uh, Taylor's like, use this, use this face cream. I promise you'll look younger. Yeah, yeah, I used it.

Yeah, exactly. Um, and then Torque, uh, obviously we have a ton going on every single week, uh, between me and Jason Torres and Ximena and Brianna. I mean, we're just going And so if you wanna check out everything we got going on, check out torque.community. Also too, listen, if you want to be just kept up to date when I go live with guests like Clark, shoot me a text. This is me. It's not some AI chatbot. It's actually me. So text LIVE to 615-235-5650. Would love to loop you in on that. All right. So, and then Mark, it's good to see you this morning. All right, Clark, let's give the people what they want, man. Who are you? What do you do now? And then we'll go from there.

I don't really even know how to answer that question, and it feels weird. Who are you?

Well, you need to.

I don't know.

You need to.

I don't know. Fuck, man. Recovering events planner. Seriously.

Seriously.

50-year-old, 49-year-old software engineer. Entrepreneur. Yeah. I don't know. It's— what's funny is I went on this like 4-day retreat by myself at a cabin up in the woods where it was pretty remote. And right back here, there's all these— there's a box full of like giant-ass yellow stickies.

Yeah.

And the only question I wanted to answer was, Who am I? How am I the guy that calls Clark? When you go, hey, I got a guy, and I'm your guy, what does that mean? Man, that's a hard question because I feel like I've lost all of who I was over the past 20 years.

Well, that's a great segue to obviously this conversation. I mean, the title of this is Starting Over. I think, Clark, if you want to give the folks who may not know and obviously who listen to this in the future kind of a little bit of context about that comment.

Yeah. I started in my career as a corporate engineer. I don't know if that's a proper term, but that's what I'm going to call it. Worked my ranks, spent 8, 9 years at Allstate, spent, you know, through the dot-com boom, spent 10 years, almost 10 years at Microsoft. I had a startup after that. And then, you know, for the last, well, last 15 years, we've had that conference. And then 9 of that, 8 of that, we've had a company called Unspecified. And Unspecified's kind of been the quiet day job where we've been doing freelancing work.

Yeah.

And that conference has been the big behemoth of time. So essentially for the last 15+ years I've been working 2 full-time jobs. So, and then that leads me to today.

Yeah. Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about the conference, right? I mean, talk about, I guess, where you grew that to and just to obviously continue to give people some context.

Yeah. That conference was born out of my desire to get community in the Upper Midwest. Location-wise, if you think about it, we have Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison, Green Bay, the Twin Cities, plenty of Des Moines.

Sure. Yeah. Des Moines, the bustling city of Des Moines. Yeah.

Well, the thing about it is they got a pretty big hot tech scene.

Yeah.

And it's only a few hours away, right?

Yeah.

And so if you just take that onion and you go, what's happening here? And where, where are people getting together? I think one of the things we suffer from is like the Java, the Ruby, the database guys, this, that, the other. And so everybody's got their little factions. And so I just wanted everybody to get together and like you would go to camp, right?

Sure.

Bond by the bonfire and food and kind of cross those, cross those boundaries and build the community here in the Upper Midwest because a lot of shit was happening that doesn't get any Doesn't get any fanfare. The coasts get all the love. Oh, these guys are the startups and this and that. But it's like, Jim over there wrote the software that's running the medical machine that grandma's using.

Yeah.

Right. Real shit happens here too. So I wanted to just highlight that, and that grew over time. Before the pandemic, we had almost 2,000 people and After the pandemic. Yeah.

Like it shifted. Yeah. So, so, and then, so how long were you running that conference for?

Since 2010.

Since 2010. Okay.

So we did 16, I think it was 16, 15, 16 events in 2 different cities. So, yep. Majority Wisconsin. And then we did 3 in Texas. Yep.

And, and, and I will say this, and, and I'm not saying this 'cause you're my friend, I'm saying this 'cause I truly mean it. Probably one of the best, like, stage setups I've, I've ever seen. Clark went all out. I mean, that thing looked like a dang camp vibe, which was great. Um, and so, uh, again, I, I still have not really seen a stage setup, uh, like that conference. So, um, uh, again, shout out to you for that.

Well, you know, success for me was sort of twofold. Uh, our goal was to build a community of people who wanted to hang with one another. You wanted to know people deeply. Our goal was to not have you feel like you were in some stuffy-ass convention center. The experience meant a lot to me. And because of that, I felt like it would drive behaviors that were better. So we weren't a party. We were sort of not great at anything.

I mean, I'm going to speak for you. I mean, you really cultivated— I mean, I've said this from the get-go, like your events, had a different vibe to them. It was very family friendly. You had— I mean, because you, you specifically kind of did the whole thing around, you know, uh, uh, what, what, the Kalahari or whatever. Like, it was kind of geared towards—

Waterpark.

Families, and everybody brought their— a lot of people brought their kids. And I mean, it, it, it was, it was a definitely a camp vibe. I mean, it was a very like fun, uh, everybody there kind of had the same vibe, just really wanted to talk. I don't know, it was just a very special— and I know it maybe kind of sucks me even saying that because Obviously that's not happening anymore, but, but you did a fantastic— I know compliments don't pay the bills. If they did, you'd be rich. But, uh, you really built something special. I mean, again, here's the hard part. Flowers publicly.

I, I appreciate that. And, and I see Richard and Roxy and Jason. I mean, a lot of people here who have been there, and Ross, who's been there for a long time. The thing about it was nobody Like nobody knew it until they could, until they'd been there and you can't sell that. Yeah. Right. Like everybody would compare it to another conference and think that it was the same thing when it wasn't, you know, at its core it was, but it, but it wasn't like, so you would come sort of in blind faith and go, oh, that was great. And then the second time you'd really know how to take advantage of it. And the third time you'd be, you You know, a pro.

Yeah.

But I had to get you there the first time, and after the pandemic that became super hard.

Yep.

Yep.

Sebastian in the chat goes, when, when's the next one? Well, well, so, so let's talk about it, right? So, all right, so you built this thing, right? You had, it was, it was, I mean, I, I would say, I would say just in this, in the scheme of keeping conferences and meetups going, I mean, it's hard enough to keep a virtual Dads and Tech thing going every month. let alone an in-person conference for 12 years. You know, and then obviously you had to sunset that because like we all know, like it's just the environment just isn't what it is. And, but talk, I mean, talk about where you're at now, man. Like reinventing yourself. You know, I think, I mean, I'm seeing you kind of in public reinventing yourself. I mean, talk about, you know, I mean, we could talk about the mental toll, but I really wanna talk about You know, the, the thought of reinventing yourself and, and giving permission to tell people like, hey, it's, it's okay to start over. Yeah.

I mean, look, I'm 49 years old. I've been around this, uh, game for a long time, and that feels really old to say. And life took a turn that we didn't expect. Sure. You know, when the pandemic came, Anybody who's sort of in the position that we are or were with the conference, a lot of people saw me as an event planner, had zero clue that I've been slinging code for 25 years, had zero clue that we built the entire platform that ran the thing.

Sure.

We found ourselves in a financial position that just sort of continued to get worse.

Sure.

That is inflation, that is the rising costs of corporate crap that was going on, ticket sales down, companies not wanting to sponsor. The writing is sort of all over the wall.

Sure.

We really tried to pull it out, but when you're dealing with venues and multi-year contracts and all that kind of stuff, You know, I'm left sort of standing on stage trying to act as if everything is fine. And for the people that, uh, were there, like, it was great for them, but, you know, inside, like, I don't know how I'm gonna pay bills. Um, and that's, um, obviously that left us in a place where I ended up going into AFib and going to the ER during an event you were at, right?

Yep. Yep.

And that led to a lot of health issues. And there's not a team of 50. There was a team of 2, 3 who were spending all day, every day planning the thing. So we get to a place where financially, Like we're underwater massive amounts of money and just, you can't, you can't do it anymore. And then you're left with like, what the fuck? Like, what am I? Who am I now? Like, we burned unspecified money to be a sponsor. The plan didn't work. Confidence is, is tanking. Health isn't good. Kids going to college. And you're like, I don't, I don't, I, for what? Like, what's going on? Like, who's, who's the person checking in on me? Right. Not that that's anybody's job, but sure, sure. You're like, what am I? What, like, what's going on?

Yeah.

And look, I, you know, there's a bit of hustle mode. So since last Uh, well, I mean, we've just been sort of dealing with the death of it and, uh, the financial commitments that need to be done and legal crap. Meanwhile, trying to figure out, well, where are we going to take Unspecified? How are we going to do it? It's been sort of the bastard child that hasn't really gotten the attention that it wants. So it's just like ebb and flow.

Yeah.

What does a 49-year-old guy do? Like, what am I now? Like, I've got this vast array of experience of like event planning, community, entrepreneurship, engineering, whatever, whatever.

Yeah.

And you're sort of left holding this, you know, bag going, I— what are we doing? Where am I? And shattered confidence. Like, How do I know that the next thing's going to be the right thing? And can we weather it? I got a kid going to college. I got one in high school. I got bills to pay, family to feed. It's fucking real. And I just lost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Where does that come from? Well, retirement investments. There's no magical— people are going to get paid.

Yeah. So let me ask you this. What would be your advice for folks? Because I know I've seen a lot of folks even too during the this time, like step away from tech, right? You know, who got into tech in 2021, 2022, who just haven't been able to, you know, have gotten laid off and can't find a job again and having to restart themselves. And I mean, what, what, what would be your biggest piece of advice or biggest words of encouragement to those who maybe just may just feel like maybe they're hitting a dead end over and over again?

You know, looking back, I look at my career and I go, I said I didn't wanna be an engineer.

Yeah.

When I— my very first interview, it was months later, I found myself programming. Loved it.

Yep.

I got into it. I've changed languages, platforms more times than need to, from .NET to open source to this, that, and the other. I was deep in security at one point and then backed out. I became an event planner. I became an entrepreneur. I was in testing. I was in architecture. I was a product manager. Yeah, I think the thing that you kind of think is like your career sort of just kind of goes up and to the right. Yeah. And the reality is that sort of ebb and flows.

100%.

Where I didn't really have a good kind of eye on things was really taking that autopsy of me and saying, what do I do that I'm— I really enjoy? And what do I do that I I don't like and working on my personal brand. I let everything go to focus on everybody else at TC and the community and all that to no websites and no— I let it all go.

Yeah.

Then I left with nothing. That nothing is me not understanding who I was, me not doing the work of where I should go. So knowing that your career is going to ebb and flow, knowing what you want to do and doing the work on you and just being intentional about what it is you want to do. You want to make $1 million? Great. Then learn about why you want to make $1 million and what things you're going to do to get there and why you're going to do it and what's your why and put the work in. And I think the thing that bothers me the most about the whole, like, developer community at large is that everybody— broad strokes— people are expecting their managers to pay for their shit instead of them investing in themselves. Like, it's like, my company should do rather than I should do. And I'm not saying that your company shouldn't participate in that.

Sure.

But I am saying that if that's what you expect to propel you forward, then you're playing their game, not yours.

Yes.

And we worked for a long time, right? And so now I find myself sitting here doing the work and we sort of have nothing at the moment, right? And we're building a new company and I'm on YouTube and all of that feels Awkward.

Sure.

But also correct. And you're sitting here in a time where tech is changing and you can like it or not like it. AI is going to completely disrupt everything that everybody knows about the shit that's going on, how you work, who you work with, the speed at which you work, how the workplace looks, how you write code, how you market, how, whatever. It's not bad. The internet changed the game too. Cars changed the game. We went from horses to cars in 13 years. That was it. 13 years, it went from a luxury item to millions mainstream on the road. That's not a long time.

Yep. So in hindsight, what you're saying is to really be more of your own advocate. I mean, that's really what I'm hearing you say.

I mean, right now I'm doing some coaching for folks or mentoring.

Sure.

And it's surprising how many people are resistant to getting outside help. Really?

Yeah.

Nobody's beating down my door to get mentored. Now, I'm not saying like, hey, look at me, like everybody should come, but sure. Yeah, yeah, it's the same reason people aren't going to conferences and meetups because they feel like they don't have to or they can get it from this. Yeah. And you and I have been on the thing of like, get involved in the community, show up, do the thing, blah, blah, blah, blah. How many fucking people are doing it? Not enough. Yeah. So, well, so for everybody who's here, like, I like That's a big deal. Yeah, it is. Think about the disproportionate amount of people who aren't. And then you go, look, I'm like, you and I've said it before, showing up is like 3/4 of the battle.

It really is.

Just show up.

Yeah. I mean, it really is.

And people don't get it. And I mean, just physically, I mean, here, virtual, right?

Yeah. That's so hard.

But for our company, I'm like, hey, can I meet you at your office? And people are like, what?

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and I think I, and I think that's huge. I, and I wanna highlight, you know, kind of asking for help or just going for the ask and whatever it is. I saw a tweet the other day. It was some VC or founders, I don't know, something. It basically was like, I can't tell you the amount of times that I ask that people reach out, ask for help. And I give them specific follow-up things and to follow up with me afterwards, and nobody does.

Oh yeah, totally.

And like, for me, I think like, and this is what I spoke in with a lot of my talks lately, and it was what I said in Barcelona. Like, I think people right now in this market, in this day and age, generally want to help others. But the fact of the matter is you just, you gotta go for the ask and you gotta stay persistent.

I literally just asked a billionaire to coach me and he's been talking to me every other day.

Really? Yeah. I mean, prime example, the vlog I just dropped from StirTrack this morning, I literally have it in the vlog. There's this D2C founder, he's in— he's like, it's like hydration, salt, electrolytes, and whatever. And I've been following him. He's got a vlog. He's great. His name is Ross McKay. And he tweeted, And he was like, hey, recommend somebody. I recommended my CrossFit coach. Her and her husband are like, they, they own like an all-natural bakery and they run the CrossFit. And like, she, she has a brain tumor now. While it is, it comes back, it's crazy. She's got to get removed. It's not like it's, it's benign, but still. So I like, I recommended her. I was like, hey, listen, like my coaches are doing some crazy stuff. Like they're, they're on it. I just shot my shot. He was in my DMs, goes, send me the address of your coach. I would love to send them a free month worth.

Yep. And it's like If I would've never just gone for the ask, dude, I would tell 200 speakers every year that I would help coach them, help them with their presentations, whatever they needed to be the most badass version of themselves. Do you know how many people said they would? Do you know how many people took me up? Handful every year out of 100. And then I would say, I would gladly give you feedback. Like, so those who submitted and didn't get it, I would say, well, look. And so we would send out 600 rejects and I would say, here's a scheduling link. I will gladly work through with you how to make your presentation better or your abstract better so that you can go to whatever. And every single time I had one Just one hurdle, which was you had to reply to get the link to do it. And I would get maybe 30 people who would reply, and then I'd give them the link, and I would get maybe 5 to 10 who would click the link.

Yeah.

And I would literally spend hours on that person's shit. Yeah. And out of 600, 5, 10?

Yeah.

Yep. Like, like, come on. Yeah. You gotta, like, like somebody said in a chat, like, just show up, right? Like, yeah. Like, it—

yeah, I don't know.

It's crazy.

So, all right, so we're already coming up on time, which is funny how this works. I do have a hard stop at 10 because I gotta—

you gotta make these longer, my man. I know, I know, I know.

Uh, the whole thing was was these bite-sized ones, right?

Uh, yeah, but you can't get into the meat, man. You're like, hey, tell me why you reinvented your life. And I gotta go, here's my new face cream, use my discount code Taylor for—

yeah, yeah, 2% off. Yeah, exactly.

Talk—

I mean, so I— as we wrap up here, I mean, what, what's next for Clark? I mean, I— how, how have you kind of, you know, reinvented yourself over the last, what, year or 9 months or however long it's been?

Yeah. I mean, since January maybe. Yeah. We didn't know in December if we weren't going to do TC, so we didn't know until January. Right, right, right. Let's see. What is Clark doing? Clark is on YouTube talking about the journey of building a new company called Unspecified. Y'all want to go— you all want to go see that? Like, just crossed 25 videos, so that's been a—

There you go. That's huge. Huge.

49-year-old person like hitting, hitting record. Uh, that's, uh, that's led to, you know, what are we doing with Unspecified, which is trying to be, um, trying to have a voice or our plan is to have a voice in how AI and tech can sort of revolutionize the workplace.

Yeah.

How can we— how do we take advantage of it so that humans can do what humans do really well?

Yeah.

And it's not really a, you know, for developers or business owners or tailors, like this isn't like AI is replacing you. It's How is AI going to enable you to do the things that make you special? And that's sort of why we did the conference, just in a different format. So yeah, kind of playing these two, two roles, like figuring it out. Like, I mean, literally talking about like, I just got, you know, we got our first customer and like, what does that mean?

Yeah.

How are we getting more? That's, that's the whole point of the YouTube channel while rebuilding the personal brand and the company brand and just the whole Whole 9 fucking yards. It better happen fast because baby's got bills to pay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, 100%. Let me ask you this. I am curious, what are some, you know, during your coaching and whatnot, are there any other things that you've seen from others that you can share, you know, at a high level of people who are struggling or maybe just some things that you're consistently seeing to encourage others? Like, Just some consistent themes of those conversations?

Yeah. I mean, we could spend another hour on that, but I will say this. So I do have a coaching program or mentoring program. Don't really know what— some people call it the Church of Clark. The Church of Clark. If that's something you're interested in, hit me up. But here's what I'll say. One, every single one of these starts with the first principle, which is health. It is without question the superpower of what you're gonna do mentally and physically. Yeah. Most people underestimate. And look, I, I'm not in, I'm not in the best shape. We were talking before we got on. I've lost—

Well, I mean, I mean, you're down 60, 30 pounds you said, right? Or something like that.

Or 20 pounds. 35 in the last 3 months.

That's huge, man. Huge.

And, and so it starts there, right? You're not gonna, you're not gonna perform well if you can't take care of yourself. It also, It's also how you show up to others. And then we get into hobbies, who you are, what you want in your career, what do you want your personal brand to be? And really just sort of doing the work and figuring it out because people haven't done the work, right? You're going to work and sort of expecting, or you're doing things but without a vision, or you don't know how to say no. Or you are stuck in your own loop of like, I don't feel like I'm good enough. Right? So there's a bit of like, no, like, let's get through why you feel that way. Hence the sort of Church of Clark, because honestly, sometimes you just need somebody to call your bullshit and go, just stop being a pansy and like, go get after it.

Yeah.

You're going to have to fail. to move forward, but you don't understand why it's important until you've gone through that failure.

Yeah.

Right?

Yep.

So I can look back at TC and go, I could tell you the good things and I could tell you where we failed. And I, you know, you made a random comment, I don't know, a long time ago, like community centers around shared pain.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Well, it turns out all things, businesses, communities, like they're all shared pain. Like a business solves a shared pain for a constituent that has a thing. They offer to give you money so that you can solve it faster. Right? We go to the grocery store because the shared pain, we all don't want to become farmers. Right? I just want my shit packaged in a cart so that I can go make it. I don't want to go kill the cattle so that I can get a brisket. So I mean, it just exists everywhere. And, um, but you gotta, you gotta do the work.

Yeah.

And my, my thing with coaching, mentoring is that somebody else can sort of help you get there faster and help, help, um, Help you get unstuck and help you uncover what you don't know. And I think you need multiples of them, whether it's therapy or coaching or just like you'd be in multiple communities, right? You're not going to be in one. You're going to be in all sorts of them.

I love that. I love that. Any last words of encouragement? It's so funny. The title was Starting Over, but I feel like we talked about just Going for the ask and obviously kind of like being your own advocate. I'll need to edit the title of this episode, but any last words of encouragement for people who are feeling stuck in their career?

I would say if you feel like it, then you probably are. And I live by this mantra of action creates momentum. I love that. And so you have to take action and do to to move the ball or push the cursor forward.

Yeah.

And you got to consume a little bit less and do a little more and just keep doing. And that energy, the good energy, will attract other good energy. And so that law of attraction will happen. You show up, you do the thing, be humble. It's cool if you don't know. Too many people are still stuck on their I can't, I can't, I can't, instead of you get to, you get to, you get to. Oh, I love that. So do it, learn from it, move on. And if you're sitting here and you are sort of, AI is going to take my job and this and that, I just say, shut the fuck up and figure it out. It's not going away. And so how are you going to participate in it? What are you going to be? How are you going to be an advocate or, I'll say, influencer? How are you going to participate in the things that are changing for the way you want it to change? So it's coming. I mean, we had 3 huge announcements last week, right? You think there's a few months later, we're going to have another 3, 4 giant announcements. Yep. Yep. So I love it. Action creates momentum, you know.

There you go.

Do it.

I love it. Uh, where— I know obviously most people tune in know you, but where, uh, you know, if people listen to this in the future, where can people find you if they want to reach out for consulting or mentoring or whatever? Where's, where's the best place for people to reach out to you?

Uh, you've— I'm in all the socials as The Clark Sell. I'm on YouTube as Clark Sell. Um, You want to email me hello@unspecified.io. Like, I'm here on LinkedIn and all the places.

I love it. You are very accessible, which I love.

Yeah. Like, if you can't find me, you probably don't really want to work with me.

But I love it. I love it.

But I also need a better website so that you could just go there and do it.

I love it. I love it. Um, well, y'all, thank you again for tuning in this morning. Clark, uh, stay on real quick so I can say bye to you backstage. But, um, y'all have a great one. Connect with Clark. Um, tomorrow morning, uh, we are back live. Um, with another guest. I'm hanging out with Pat Clark, uh, Director of Engineering, um, out of Raleigh.

Pat did it wrong. It's supposed to be Clark and then—

yeah, yeah, yeah.

So he's got it all backwards.

Pat, Pat leads the Dads in Tech kind of Raleigh chapter per se. So we're gonna be hanging out talking about generalist versus specialist. Um, so it's gonna be a great conversation. So I'll see y'all tomorrow morning, 9:30 AM Central. Go connect with Clark. Clark, thank you, my friend. And, uh, we'll see y'all tomorrow morning.