Encore Conversations 1: Beyond the Keys & Radiance - Jeeyoon Kim on Love, Resilience, and Creativity

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As difficult as the process was, I found that by opening myself up, I began to carve my own path more clearly. No matter what I do, whether that is performing or teaching piano or writing, being open, transparent, and vulnerable is the is the real key to connection. We all are creative, really creative enough to create something that whatever you desire. For me, creativity isn't about trying to be original. It's where what naturally happens when you lead something with love and a desire to connect.

Hello everyone and welcome to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. Today is extra special because I am kicking off a brand new series called Encore Conversations. This is where I bring back past guests for shorter, more personal conversations so we can catch up, hear about their new projects, and reflect on how their journeys have evolved since the last time they joined us. To launch this series, I couldn't think of a better guest than Jiyeon Kim. When Jiyeon first joined me back in Season 3, we talked about her debut book, Whenever You're Ready, her mission to make concerts immersive and personal, and her belief that music is about building real human connections. She spoke with such honesty and originality about her artistry, her challenges, and her philosophy of living fully, and so many of you reached out afterward to say how deeply her story resonated. If you missed that conversation or want a refresher, it's Season 3, Episode 14. You can find a link in the show notes. Now JiYoon is back with her brand new book Beyond the Keys and a companion album Radiance. Both reflect her signature authenticity and creativity, inviting us to experience music and life through the lens of love, resilience, and connection. I am so thrilled to have her back to help me launch this new series, so let's dive right in. Here is my encore conversation with Jiyoung Kim. Jiyeon, welcome back.

I'm so glad to be back.

And welcome to the very first edition of our alumni series called Encore Conversations. And since this season is all about creativity and connection, so I cannot think of a better person to help us kick it off than you. And you're the perfect person to ask. And the last time you were here was season 3, almost 3 years ago, 2 and a half. And how have you been?

I have been busy but well.

That's great. That's wonderful to hear. So back then we talked about your first book, Whenever You're Ready, and your passion for connecting with audiences and engaging in creative ways. And for those tuning in today who missed that episode, definitely go back and check it out. It's full of gems, just like her writing. So please go to thepianopod.com and find her episode, or you check the description below. So I still remember attending your Carnegie Hall concert after the episode. That's about 2 years ago, right? Correct. Yeah. And you live in California, but you flew to New York and then gave a wonderful concert, unforgettable on so many levels. Well, first of all, your concert was phenomenal. I mean, exquisite. And just like you promised in the episode, our conversation, that you had a microphone on stage and shared a reflections between each piece, like your thoughts on the piece, composer, and it created such a warm and intimate atmosphere, although it's Carnegie Hall. But, and then if I remember correctly, there was a QR code in the program to— I don't remember.

Well, that concert meant to have a big projection with the artwork, but since Carnegie Hall, especially the Weill Hall, doesn't allow or doesn't have that capacity on purpose to keep that traditional look. I opted to have it on the program book with those art, the black and white photography. And so people kind of enjoyed it. But at the end, I thought it worked out really well. It created really such a, almost like a candlelight effect with this gorgeous traditional setting of Carnegie Hall with the tradition, you know, Yeah, yeah.

And then of course, you know, another thing was that the— that's the day that we had a Canadian wildfire. And then I am so sorry, I, I was there, I attended your concert, but I had to leave because I got so sick running around the town.

It was really a special day because I had my— in my imagination, the perfect day, you know, performance at Carnegie, and that was the second time I imagined the perfect scenario. But then the day, it was like haze. I couldn't even see, you know, 3 feet away because it was so foggy and everybody canceled. I think that Broadway was canceled that day. So I, you know, people ask, are your concerts still on? Are you canceling? Like, no, I'm here, I'll give a concert. Whoever comes to concert, I will give whatever I have. And so it was very conflicted to mind because I wanted to be so perfect. Everything I prepared for so long. But then in the end, those challenges, this of the environment that made me let it go. Like, you know what? Even the world crashes today, that I'm here. Today I play piano. So that was very meaningful in many layers.

But the concert hall was full, packed.

Those New Yorkers are no joke.

No, we don't. We don't joke. So I mean, filled with people. And so many people went downstairs and greeted you. So it was just so wonderful. Now here we are, 2025, celebrating your second book. Beyond the Keys. And when we reconnected this time, you so kindly sent me this advanced reader copy. Oh my gosh, I felt so special. And I have a lot of sticky notes here because I loved some of the quotes and I just couldn't help. So this book feels like a continuation of your first, but even more intimate and personal, as though we're hearing your true voice. More clearly than ever. So tell us, what is Beyond the Keys?

Beyond the Keys. Yeah, Beyond the Keys is my dream come true, basically. It is about life as much as it is about music. The book holds 52 reflections, just like piano key has 52 white keys or 52 weeks of the year. That 52 has a lot of symbolic meanings. To many people and especially to me. And each one paired with my story and my own recording through QR code and also artwork from all over the world. Many collaboration with artists living in this, in this time. And it is collection of uplifting stories that take you behind the scenes of my life, classical pianist life, but also into my journey as South Korean immigrant or entrepreneur or the artist who live in my mid-40s. But more than just stories, I really see this book as an experience. I want it to be an experience. I like to imagine that it's stepping into a cozy café together, and I will share a story or two. There's a piano in the corner waiting for me to play, and on the walls there are a lot of artwork inviting you to pause or linger or let them speak to you. And that's the spirit of the book. And you can take your time with it and read a chapter or two, listen to a recording, look at the artwork, let it sink, like standing in front of those masterpieces in a museum. And at its heart, I think Beyond the Keys is about connection through words, through music and the art— artwork. And I believe no matter how advanced technology becomes, we always longing that human touch of creativity to remind us of beauty and to give us perspective and to bring us back to this present moment. So for me, the life itself is always changing and transforming, and we're all still growing and unfolding, and in like those trees have many branches and still hold so many centuries of life and emotions. And so I hope this book is my way of sharing the stories and my experiences that shaped me, not just as a pianist, but as a friend walking alongside you, that searching for the positive light, searching for the meaning in life.

And while I was reading, I really— I can hear your voice almost. I felt it was really about love, and love for music, love for your career and life itself. I can really sense that, and love for the people around you, and near and far, and your past and present, and of course, love for yourself. I was truly struck by how candid you were about the real life challenges and hardships you face also. Yeah, quite shocked. Wow, really? You go all the way. Wow, that's great. Now, each chapter felt like a gentle reminder to live fully and stay present. Am I right? Am I close to what you intended? Yeah, for sure.

For sure. That might be my stories, but ultimately I think it's everyone's story. I started to write newsletters for my audiences about 4 years ago, just maybe around the time that I released my first book, Whenever You're Ready. So it was my intention was connected with people beyond the stage, behind the scenes of life. And you know how that's how my biweekly newsletter called Behind the Keys started. And at first people read it as way that to get closer to me and they following. But over time, I realized that I wasn't just sharing music updates where I'm going to perform, but I was letting people into my life, the joys and struggles and, you know, all of the stories that I encounter as just another human being. And then something beautiful happened in Over the course of the last 4 years, readers of my newsletter started to write back. They told me their life stories, their reflections that become highlight in their inbox too. So they said that my newsletter become a dose of inspiration they always look forward to. And sometimes they're like sharing their like whole life stories in their email back. And even though I hadn't met most of them in person, but I felt like I were becoming companions or friends in this journey of life. And that connection through words became just as meaningful as connection that I feel on stage through music. And then one morning I woke up and idea that honestly felt like a jolt of electricity and thinking, Hmm, what if I combine my writing and my music in a same experience? A book that included not only stories but also my performance, and perhaps through, you know, now it's technology, through QR codes so that readers could listen while they read. And then I could also release my next album, which is Radiance, that in the part of the book, which wouldn't that be really unique way of releasing an album, not only CDs or LPs or digital release on Apple Music, whatnot. And from the morning, I knew that book publishing takes time. I mean, much longer than CD release. It's maybe from the idea to realization, maybe at least a year and a half, if not 2 years. And I was— couldn't wait to bring this idea into realization, a real book. And I know that it will take a long time, and I wanted to share what my vision was, but since I didn't have anything to share, I couldn't necessarily share much. And now this book that I'm holding in front of me physically and sharing with words, it really literally feels like a dream that it's living its own. And so this is For me, it's again living thing that it will have its own life now because it's done. My job is done after finishing this book. So it will live in someone's bookshelf or someone's nightstand or someone— some bookstore libraries. And whoever touches, they will have shared experience. But it's not same time concert. I feel it's always shared time experience. But book or the album is always not coherent time experience, but they will experience even 50 years from now, they will meet JiYoon in the mid-40s and have that continued conversation. And the, the stories that I share, the music that I share, and that it will always have that time capsule with it. And Find it, it's such a beautiful way to have experience, maybe not at the same time, but moving forward always.

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Now, you wrote the first book that was also authentic, honest, and focused more on your career, how you made your career happen. But this one is really about your life. What made you decide to really share the deepest, then even hardest moment of your life with your audience?

I don't know that was a set decision that I thought, okay, I'm gonna open myself and to be able to share everything out. And I don't think that was definitely the decision, and it's still— it's challenging. I think it's the most challenging part of writing itself is how you, you need to be transparent. I remember, always remember, one of several editors mentioned readers are smarter than you think. They always know if you are writing from open heart and vulnerable place, or you, you want to share only this part but this part no. I want to share this part. So maybe they don't really feel it, but they can, they can sense it. And it's funny because when I first made a draft for this book, I put one of those hard personal life stories with my divorce or with the drug involved and all many hardships, even about my father, almost towards the chapter 49, chapter 50. And I send it out to the publisher This is my, you know, the draft, first draft. And the editor, whoever going through the first time through, just reading it, just roughly reading through it, she emailed me back maybe a couple days later, Jiyeon, I feel like I'm betrayed by you. You can't do that. You can't put those hard personal challenges like that degree almost at the end. I feel like you are hiding, although you are not. But I want to read the whole book once again knowing the fact. So you have to put place this one beginning, like, I ask, when, where, like chapter 3 or 4. There's no, no way around it. You have to go in the head first, sharing those kind of stories. So then everything else you do makes sense. So then it really struck me, ah, another realization that I unconsciously, I don't think I did it consciously, but unconsciously I wanted like, I wrote it and I shared it, but I'm going to place in a little bookmark, you know, but then this writing really meant that writing about fear, heartbreak, or something I would rather bury deep and never want to touch it again. And Other times it meant I need to slow down long enough to take a hard look at my life, what was really working and what is not working. And writing pushed me to be that vulnerable, to put those truths on the page instead of hiding from them. And as difficult as the process was, I found that by opening myself up, I began to carve my own path more clearly. And a lot therapist, if you are talking to therapy or, you know, those along the way, the best method that you can have for yourself other than having someone else professional to walk with you the path is writing. Because that writing is giving your thought a clothing. If you don't give writing, if you don't write it out, your thoughts might bother you, but if you give, um, kind of transparent thing, a clothing, then it becomes something that you can see directly. And that gave me, uh, the clear sense of who I am and where I am. What is my weakness? What is my strength? What could I do better? And why I start struggling with the certain things? And that honest— that honesty allow people to connect with me in a deeper level because it is their fear too. It's a fear of losing someone. It's a fear of aging. And all of things that I mentioned, it's not my own struggle. It's the struggles that all human probably have experienced, especially the loss of loved ones. And I hope that it also helped them to see the light within themselves. In that sense, the challenge became The gift— the more I opened, the more connection and meaning I discovered, both for myself and for my readers. So, uh, people were saying sometimes, wow, JiYoon, you're so courageous to be open like that. And I'm not doing it to be courageous. I'm doing it for the most to be clear for myself, to gain the strength to move forward with my life and find a better way to living. And by doing that, I think I'm giving strength to other people who live this life in their own way, that, you know, it's okay. I think I can deal with this too.

Wow, beautifully said. And so by writing, what did you discover, especially about yourself?

I think the biggest thing I learned is no matter what I do, whether that is performing or teaching piano or writing, being open, transparent, and vulnerable is the real key to connection. In the past, I sometimes wish that I were that kind of performer that whom every piece or every concert came so effortlessly. They just have perfect technique. Everything is just like Oh yeah, I will give another concert. Or in life that I had, I wish that I had fewer personal challenges or less loss, less heartbreak. But then through writing these reflections, I realized that even those painful parts of life have their place. They shaped me who I am today and ultimately for the better. And now I no longer wish for an easy, challenge-free path. Instead, I'm grateful for the tools that I have, which is writing, music, or art, or the connection I built with people, which gives me strength to weather life's storms and also embrace its joy when it comes again. And maybe the The most surprising thing I've learned probably with this book is that I'm not only a pianist, but I'm also truly a writer. This book helped me see that.

Yeah, you really have written really well. So now we want to take a little peek into your book. But when you sent me this copy, and I'm truly grateful, you said, you put a little message, very sweet message. You said, "Let these pages offer a moment of quiet, clarity, and calm. Part book, part concert, part gallery for you." Yeah. So It is true. It's a book with a concert and gallery. So can you explain to us, you know, this book is very different from so many other books. It's a memoir, but it's not just that. So the structure of this book.

Yeah. This is the book that I hope to be an experience, but where How could I combine those three elements? When I gave a concert, previous concert project, Xi'an, which was poetry in music, I wanted to collaborate poets with my music selections. But then I thought, hmm, I need a visual somewhere to hold the place. So that's where black and white photography came with it. And so those three combined. So when I thought of of this book combining my stories and my music, which is these two elements that I created. And I love going to gallery, or, you know, I have this café and there's a wall and something interesting art, I look at it. And every time I go to a museum, even though I go to that museum 1,000 times, I always make a game with myself. What is my top 3 of today, and I will make sure I spend more than 5 minutes for the very 3 rather than what— looking at it, everything at once. And looking at the artwork for longer than 5 minutes, it's really a long time. But if you do, there's layers, almost like you let it go and let it go more and let it go more. And then you realize, oh gosh, there's a detail that I didn't realize. Oh wow, I didn't know that. I'm looking at this artwork maybe for, you know, 20 times already, but this is first time I realized something else. And I think those moments of looking at the art or listen to the same piece 1,000 times. And when you go to concert and you hear different line that you never realized before, Those discoveries happen when you let it happen, and that takes time. It takes an intentional let it go and let it evolve. So my intention of it is that this book, 52, are not to be spent at one sitting. I wanted this— I mean, this book is not really one to the next. It's not related in a way other than it's my stories. And there's a story about how I became a cat person, or, you know, sometimes it makes you chuckle and sometimes it makes you ponder, sometimes it makes you heartache with me. And those stories, it takes time for you to digest. And because ultimately I want you to think about your own life. So this may be at least 52 days If not 52 weeks, which is a whole year, I want you to truly take time. And if you could spend 5 minutes, listen to my performance, because there's a reason why I chose that particular performance for that essay. There's a reason why there's artwork paired with that music and that essay. It's not like, okay, I like this artwork, I'm going to include it. No, I actually had more than 300 artwork that I wanted to include. We ended up doing more than 300 because I got a rejection. It, uh, I got no or no response. This was the process of selecting artwork, paying license fee, contacting them, enthusiastically explain the project, but then what I got was a lot of times no or no response at all. That takes already more than a year of constantly pushing. And because it was my vision alone, no one else's, and I wanted that part. So then a lot of times, like, oh, I wish that particular artwork's part of this essay, or that's part of this music. But then I have to move on, move on to go next, next one, and next one. And this 52 were not just ripped out of my toolbox and here we are, but it was the hard work of choosing careful selections, try to match with my stories in the music. And a lot of times who have read this book and saying it felt like a gift they open every night or every time they sit down on the chair to be able to read and discover about themselves, maybe something about me, but more so an opportunity to slow down. That's why I think this is a— it's a part book, part gallery, part concert, a ritual of calm. And that's— I think it is my intention for this book, for the readers to experience a moment of slowing down, especially we are bombarded with phones and so much stimulation that actively not using the phone takes effort. But this is a beautiful way to receive it without having to fight, because it's not like you have to put the phone in the lockbox. No, it— this is more like you much rather have hold this book, take 5 minutes, and then in the end you might realize, you know 'What? That was really nice.' But don't go overboard. Take the next chapter for the next day rather than, 'What is next? What is next?' And kind of force yourself, slow it down with the book. And I suggest all the readers, and slower the better. And a lot of times that I received the letters from some of the readers of my book, this Beyond the Keys, and say, 'There's 10 more chapters left and I'm sad.' I feel like I wish there are 100 more for me to keep going with this journey. And I cherish this so much because they savor each chapter like opening up the gift. And it's like a 30 Days to Christmas kind of thing. So they open it and they really take time and then they close it and then that is it. And then go, keep going with their life. And maybe you want to revisit, and there is a table of contents of this book. It has glimpse of artwork and glimpse of which piece of music it's paired or the title of the story. So you may not go to 1, 2, 3, but you may just choose like a random menu. And like, oh, today I want to go to chapter 30 because that artwork spoke to me. Oh, I love that piece of music and I want to go there. So it is like a collage, you know, your own, make your own menu kind of book as well. And I think my wish for this book is that after experiencing this book, you may rediscover the beauty of maybe reading, which is a hard thing to do these days. And maybe, oh, you know, next time I see some classical concert, rather, ah, no, that's not for me. But rather, you know, I listen to those classical pianists, you know, performing on YouTube through the book. Maybe I try again. Or when you go through the gallery, there's some exhibition going on, rather than just like not uninterested, just step in and take a moment like, oh, what is this artist draw about. Just take your time, because I believe what I'm trying to give all the readers through this book is the gift of the art. That I think there's a reason why we have art. The art is right here as a tool for humanity to, to lead our lives better. And whether that's a visual art, of course for me it's classical music, The music, and then also storytelling. Storytelling might be the longest form of art that the grandma at the bedtime telling you, telling you a story about her past, or, you know, make up stories. And next day, I wanna— I don't— I know every little details that story. I want to hear again, Grandma, tell me the story once again. And that's the beauty of connection. And from that connection with the human connection, that we feel we are safe because we are here together. And because at times life feels impossibly difficult, at the times I also reminded, ooh, the storm of life hits me again. It feels the end of life, almost like I can't bear this weight of life. But at the moment, I reminded myself that I am not the only one who goes through this. Everybody goes through some shape of waves. And right now I'm just hitting the biggest wave I feel like at the moment, but I know there's another calmer days. And when the calmer days, life is good. So when is the, the storm of life hits me, then I have to desperately searching for the remedy. And then I hope that could be an art.

All these wonderful 52 chapters, 52 stories are also divided into 5 sections or 5 parts. And there are a lot of like secrets. You have to be on a quest to discover a lot of secrets, not just the drawing, beautiful illustration. And I don't know how you did it, you know, putting all these people together and commissioning. I don't know if you commissioned, or maybe you—

I did commission some.

Oh my gosh. And then each chapter has a QR code, you said, and then this is your performance, right? Connected to your YouTube and YouTube. So that can be the past performances. But, right. Well, I don't know how you did it, but yeah, you did it. So I totally admire, and I myself write and I love writing. Reading and then writing about my past, and it just gives me the sense of reclaiming, you know, your place. And also, like, I don't know, like, sense of, like, empowerment. So I love doing that. But, you know, to, to write something like this, it's a really a devotion, dedication. So bravo to you. Yeah. And then not only that, you have you're creating this concert series plus album Radiance. So can you tell us about this concert series and then the album? This, by the way, episode is, you know, out on September 30th. So by the time both your album and then the concert and plus this book Beyond the Keys are already out. Right.

Radiance is my 4th album and concert project. I always follow this model of a lot of maybe pop music culture model after, which is you release an album and that become your model for the concert tours. And they, let's say, if they have some title of the album and they tour with that title. And not many classical musicians might have done that. But from the very beginning, 10 More Minutes, my album, which is crowdfunded, that I create a concert curation, a program that is modeled after the album, not all, all, but some of it, and then made it live version of 10 More Minutes concert. So that was first one. And then second was over, above, beyond. And third one, Shiom. And now Radiance. That is— I also always hope that music, just like Beyond the Keys, that music doesn't have the shape, you can't see it, but it speaks directly to the soul. And it's the same thing with the light, the Radiance. The sense of light is that when you're least expecting that you feel the warmth. It's kind of the sense of it. And I hope that through all of my musical selections, that it's my gift of light to brighten up your day. And that among this program, I have Pictures at Exhibition by Mussorgsky. Of course, this is one of the most well-known piano repertoire, if not orchestral music more well-known. Many of the legendary pianists recorded and have already made their name out there. The reason I wanted to do this time differently for Ji-eun's version of Pictures Exhibition is that Mussorgsky paired his artist friend who recently passed away at that time, and he visited his exhibition. And he walked through this exhibition with a dear friend of him who recently passed away and created this beautiful music named after many of his friend's artwork, exact titles. And then, so he saw the artwork, inspired, and created music. My version of this is that I took out the titles as much as possible just music itself and what emotions that evoke, what message it says. And I try not to tie it into the title, although I already know, so it's almost undo that part. But as much as the raw first listening to it, and if that sparks a humor or joy, that I find, search for the artwork again, the contemporary artist who's living now, and that makes me chuckle. And that artwork, that's perfect for that movement. And I reach out to the artist and can we collaborate for this concert, you know, Radiance? And I selected 17 artwork and representing 10 different countries. And to me now, the audiences will So in my program as well, I will not print the title of each movement, but when they walk out from the concert, they will be given each subtitles of the pictures exhibition as well as artwork credits, who is from. And so my idea is that now when you go venture off to the gallery or museum or on Instagram, someone else's is drawing or artwork. You curate your own artwork with the pictures exhibition, and you can create your own creative journey with it. And it again is my invitation for you to have fun, to have a creative outlet. It's not only me I can do it, you can do. And I find that more creative we are, we're more childlike. Have— just have fun and make mistakes and see what happens. And, you know, there's no right answer for in art, and that's a beautiful thing about it. And I, by doing it, I feel we are much more connected with ourselves, which makes us ultimately more happy. Um, so Radiance is, is very special in that way, to invitation to my playground. And that's not definite answer either. And maybe next concert that I present Radiance in other city that I may collaborate with some other artwork because at that time maybe my vision of certain movement have changed and I think it's okay.

Yeah, wonderful. Wow, I know you've been doing this sort of a creative way to give your concerts and, um, and then I myself of course witnessed that. So yeah, so Your book Beyond the Keys and the album Radiance are both out. So where can we get access to these? Should we go to your website or?

Beyond the Keys, you can get it on Amazon and any, however you purchased books. And of course, if you get it from my website, you will get a signed copy and a little giveaway stickers and all the little personal message. Same goes to Radiance. I only created 100 copies of a CD. As much as I want everybody listen through the CD, I know that's not the case nowadays, but I still wanted to have a tangible experience. Whoever wants to have the tangible experience. But if not, you can always listen from you know, any digital format, Apple Music, and you can purchase it digitally and things like that. And, or hopefully the best way is you can catch me live concert Radiance, which I will be touring around, around the country in America for the next 2 years.

Wow, so, so much to look forward to. And yeah, and your website is jeeunkim.com, which is J-E-E Y-O-O-N-K-I-M dot com, right? Is there anything, the last thing you would like to say?

Um, you have mentioned several times as well that I'm creative, I'm doing something different, but I also want to mention that what I do, if you think about it, nothing unusual. People go to the gallery, people People do read a book, people do go to concert, people do produce albums. So what I did combining it may not be the most unique thing, but at the same time I did it in that there's not many who would attempt to do something unusual, which is usual thing. So it became creative thing. Because the only fact that made me different is I did it, and maybe someone else's is only ideas. Um, so for me, creativity isn't about trying to be original. It's where— what naturally happens when you lead something with love and a desire to connect. And when you truly want to share something beautiful, in my case, Oh my gosh, I want to share this cat artwork so bad, or this story of my life, even, even through the painful stories, or this, this joyous music that I performed over the last decade. And I'm just cannot wait to share those things with you, all of you. Then I found it finds its own own shape, if you have desire, want to share it, whether that is a concert or story or visual art or a book or a combination of it. So that I hope all of you believe that we all are creative, really creative enough to create something that whatever you desire. And if only thing may be holding hold back many of us is fear of making mistakes, fear of judgment, fear of your own judgment. What, what am I doing? I mean, there's some better writers out there. Or what am I doing? There's better pianists. Why am I drawing? Because there's better artists. Yes, there are better. There's no other you. And so you are the most original is who you are. And just remember the love in a connection, they will unlock you to be able to just be who you are because you are always imperfect being and imperfect being embracing the other imperfect being. And somehow through that bridge, it's a perfect love.

Wonderful. Jiyoung, thank you so much for sharing your stories and insights with us once again. And it was wonderful to catch up and to hear more about your new projects in our very first Encore Conversations episode. So to everyone, be sure to visit Jiyoon's website at jiyoungkim.com, and the book Beyond the Keys and then the album Radiance is already out, so you can purchase or you can stream them. And if you would if you'd like to really truly immerse yourself, you should get the actual copy rather than, you know, eventual digital format, right? Yeah, yeah, great. So, and if you enjoyed today's conversation, please like this video, leave a rating on your favorite podcast platform, and follow me on Substack. I will see you in the next episode. Thank you once again, Jean.

Thank you.

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