Part 1 of Season 4 Episode 4: Dr. Nnenna Ogwo -- Concert Pianist, Educator, & Founder of Juneteenth LP

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The thing that I was reflecting on as far as Juneteenth was concerned is the fact that, um, You know, if you put yourself in the mind of people who were enslaved at that point, you know, when they got that announcement, it was a General Gordon Granger who made the announcement in Galveston, Texas. You have to imagine what it must have been like to have your world be as big as the plantation that you worked on, and then suddenly your world got a whole lot bigger. And what Black people chose to do with that freedom I find is absolutely extraordinary, because within like a couple of decades you had young young Black men studying classical music and living life on their terms. And so this is what I wanted to celebrate, like, this artistic drive and this incredible spirit that sort of pushes us forward as Black people and as Americans.

Welcome back to another episode of The Piano Pod, where tradition meets innovation. We bridge the timeless beauty of the piano with the dynamic pulse of today's world. I am your host, Yukimi Song. I am immensely proud of this new season's guest lineup, who are incredibly talented and dedicated in their craftsmanship and bring a rich tapestry of diverse experiences into this show. I truly appreciate their willingness to be on The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song to share their thoughts and expertise, and I really can't wait to unveil each episode to you, letting their stories inspire, educate, and resonate. Now, I trust you've had a chance to dive into our previous episodes, and I am genuinely curious to know your thoughts about them. So please share your feedback on social media or drop us a note on our website at thepianopod.com. Your insights are valuable in shaping the direction of the show. Today's episode features an artist whose journey in the piano world is deeply rooted in her background, Caribbean and African heritage, and whose performances resonate with audiences worldwide. So let me introduce our guest for this episode. Dr. Nana Ogboh, pianist, educator, founder, and artistic director of Juneteenth LP. She's graced stages from Europe to the Middle East, South America to the Caribbean, and of course, the United States. Whether it's a grand concert hall or an intimate gathering, Nana's captivating warmth ensures everyone feels welcomed, which is central to her mission of broadening the horizons of classical music audiences. In 2019, Nana took a bold step by founding the Juneteenth LP. This collective shines a spotlight on the artistic brilliance of the African diaspora through the unique lens of Black classically trained musicians. Nana has been the driving force behind Juneteenth LP, both as a pianist and executive and artistic director. Her dedication was recognized in 2022 when she received the Chamber Music America Artist Grant. This accolade transformed her annual Juneteenth celebration from a one-night event at Joe's Pub at the Public Theater to a week-long New York City extravaganza. Dr. Oguo's piano journey began at the tender age of 6. She honed her skills at prestigious institutions like Peabody Prep, Oberlin Conservatory, the List Academy of Music, and Stony Brook University. She has been honored with the Stern Scholarship, Turner Fellowship, and the Fulbright Award. Today, Dr. Ogbuo is sought after as a concert pianist, chamber musician, concert curator, guest lecturer, and faculty member at various esteemed music institutions. And for those eager to experience her magic, her solo piano album, Luminous, was unveiled in May 2023 under the MSR Classics label. Before getting started with this special episode with Dr. Nana Ogboah, I want to welcome all our first-timers to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. I'm a classical pianist and educator from New York City. Whether you're diving deep into a piano career, working professionally in the classical music scene, or simply have a passion for piano tunes, this podcast is your backstage pass to the fascinating piano world. I also want to welcome back and thank you to amazing TPP fans and faithful listeners for tuning in today. Please rate and review the show on your favorite podcast platform because every rating review will help people find the show. So dear TPP fans and listeners, I can't wait to interview Dr. Nana Ogboh to hear about her remarkable musical career and learn what Juneteenth LP is all about. So stick with me till the end of our conversation as it will lead to a more reflective discussion on how we trained classical musicians should keep classical music relevant and thriving in today's rapidly changing world. So here we go, dear friends. Please enjoy the show. You are listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century. So welcome, Nena, to The Piano Pod. Thank you so much for being here. I love, I love your room. I love the painting. I recognize the painting in your background.

I, you know, when you're, when you're doing things on a shoestring budget, you use what you have, and, and I decided this will be a lovely background for my website.

No, it looks like a million bucks. I mean, yeah, and I recognize it from your website, right?

Yeah, it actually is the first piece of art that I ever bought in New York.

Really?

Yeah, there used to be a public auction house called Tepper Galleries on East 25th Street, and I was with my mom and I was bidding on it, and my mother was looking at me like, what are you— that looks terrible. But I had this huge living room with tons of wall space, and when I put it up, she was like, oh, okay, okay. Yeah, pretty dramatic and powerful. But when I was bidding, she thought I was nuts.

Wow, but somehow it just captures the essence of my impression of you. Anyway, so our mutual, I guess, friend or colleague Rosemary Kavilia, she is a fellow pianist and educator as well, and my colleague at the nonprofit organization we are both part of, is a faithful listener of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song and such a wonderful supporter of what I do. And then she emailed me a few months ago and suggested that I should interview you. And so I'm very excited. The biggest shout out to Rosemary. If you are listening, Rosemary, I am sending you positive vibes and appreciation for introducing Nana to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. While I was learning about you to prepare for this interview, even, you know, within this big umbrella of music or music industry, You do wear many hats, not only the pianist and educator, but also you are composer, arts advocate, and among many things you do, what I'd like to focus today in this episode is your passion project, Juneteenth Legacy Project, and you're a founder and executive and artistic director. So let's start with that. So what is Juneteenth Legacy Project? Is this an organization, program? Who is this for?

First of all, I want to correct you on one thing. We are actually called JuneteenthLP. The LP does stand for Legacy Project, but there actually is a Juneteenth Legacy Project, which is an arts-based organization in Houston. And I encourage people to find out who they are and what they're doing. They're doing really great work. But it was one of my first lessons in business. I did not grab that domain name. I did not grab immediately. And so, you know, I went back to it 3 months later and it was gone, so we became Juneteenth LP. But we are a music collective of classically trained— mostly classically trained musicians of the African diaspora. Our mission is to introduce people to classical music by African diaspora composers, but the gateway is more familiar music to them. So we play music of all genres. Toshi Reagon, the amazing musician, artist, activist, had a series at Joe's Pub called her Good Folks series. And she invited me to do this, to do the Juneteenth show, 'cause I had said that's what I wanted to do. She invited me to do the Juneteenth show at Joe's Pub in 2015. And in May of that year, my mother passed away. So it didn't happen. For 2016 and 2017, I shared the event with two other artists, which was a wonderful experience. And through that sharing, the artists that they brought in, I got to meet. Some of them. And so as we were giving these concerts, the concert was my way of introducing people to classical music by Black composers. And so I played Ulysses K. and I played William Grant Still and I played David Baker and Dorothy Rudd Moore, and people really, really enjoyed it. And it was funny because, you know, I started the program and then the other musician ended the program. And, you know, what they were playing was much more contemporary. I thought even though, you know, there are these two sort of very distinctly different styles, people were really, really receptive to the music that I was playing. But I think that they were not just receptive to what we were playing, they were receptive to the fact that I talked about the music. I talked about the composers, I talked a little bit about their lives and about maybe what they were going through when they wrote the pieces, and I talked about how the music spoke to me, and I invited the audience to engage with, you know, what did they hear? And in the first year, actually, or maybe the second, I did something really interesting. I played a bunch of Scriabin preludes, the Opus 16 preludes, and there are 5 of them, and I played them all, and then I turned to the audience and I said— well, before I said, you know, there are This set actually reminds me so much of Nina Simone. And I'm curious if you hear what I hear in it. If you don't, it's fine. But if you do, I'd like to know which one of the preludes. And so I played them all. And there was one that I was specifically thinking about. And they said, number 1, number 5, number 3. And I thought, huh, because number 4 was the one that I absolutely attached. Absolutely attached to Nina Simone. There's something very haunting and lonely about her voice when she's singing ballads, or even when she's singing tunes that should be a little bit more upbeat. There's still a profound sadness sometimes that comes through. And so this, this prelude, which just has this melody, and then chord, chord, and then the harmony changes, right? That, I mean, it broke my heart every time I heard it, every time I worked on it. And I said, "So number 4, 'No One'?" And then, you know, the audience went, "Oh yeah, I could, I hear that." You know what I mean? But everyone had different, you know, ideas of what, and different things appeal to them. And I thought, wow, you know, music is fascinating. There's what I think and what I feel. And then there's, Everybody's going to receive it in a different way, in a different context. I was kind of struck by the fact that this was a real opportunity to have a much more intimate relationship with the audience than I ever would, right? Because normally we get on stage, we play, we bow, we maybe say a few words, maybe about our encore, and then, you know, that's done. And so there's this kind of mystery of being a classical pianist or musician or performer And this way I got to talk to people about, you know, my process and what I was thinking of and why I chose this and, you know, the connections from composer to composer. And so finally, in 2018, I had met enough musicians who were really interested in what I was doing and really sort of like, yeah, we want to support you. We want to do this and we want to support you. And, you know, that is really profound and significant, especially in New York, 'cause it's very hard to make a living. It's very hard to, it's just the daily grind is hard. And when musicians say, yeah, we're willing to rehearse every week, every 2 weeks, and we're willing to put in this time and we're willing to, we want to, we do wanna give concerts in the community and we do wanna do outreach. And they kind of trusted me to find the money, you know? And sort of helped with like, there are two people specifically who became part of like the team, you know? And so we sort of together were able to build something. And I, you know, I don't take any of that for granted. Like as much as it says, you know, I'm the executive and artistic director, yeah, this was a team and it is a team in a lot of ways.

Just to go back a little bit. So I read your bio and then the Juneteenth El Pi was officially formed in the year 2019, I believe. That's a year before the, you know, of course, largest—

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The Black Lives Matter movement in 2020, and then so When I visited your website, I also heard the audio file of your statement in 2016 at the Joe's Pub in downtown Manhattan. So what to become of, you know, Juneteenth LP down the road. So it's been years in the making, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And what really inspired you is it sounds like it's a gradual thing to form this, but was there a specific event or experience that really inspired you to create it, or was it more like a gradual thing, started something small and became what it is today?

Definitely there was a seed, and the seed was this annual Juneteenth celebration at Joe's Pub. And then the more musicians that I met that were kind of simpatico with this idea that I had, the more I realized this could be something more than just one show, you know, in the year. And also I started paying attention to how people were reacting to the concert. We got a lot of kids coming up to musicians with stars in their eyes, like, "I didn't know the violin could do this." You know, we had this violinist who wrote this piece called Evolution. His name is Ed Hardy, and he sort of musically charted in this piece, you know, music, and it went from spirituals to hip-hop and scratching on the violin, and it was really kind of potent. But what was really amazing was watching these kids say, "I play violin, and I didn't know I could do that." I didn't know it could be like that. To watch him and the other musicians interact with these kids, like, yeah, there are tons of things you can do with this instrument. You know, this is, you know, the whole point of practice is to play and explore. And so I was really kind of moved by that and realized that we could reach people in a way that was so much greater. Classical music audiences are small. And our concern is that it's dying off, right? That it's definitely an older community that really, really loves classical music and then grew up with it. And I think that my mom's generation is probably the last of the generation that sort of classical music was in the general, in the air generally, right? Now classical music is very sort of specific. And because it's specific, if you don't know the language and you don't know the codes to get in, you don't know how to access it, even if you love it. This provided an opportunity to reach so many more people and to reach people who would not necessarily think that they love classical music, but that they hear it and they go, "That was gorgeous," or, "That was so interesting. I'd like to know more about this composer." One of the things that people ask me a lot is, what is the impact you want your ensemble to have? And then what is the impact you think it actually does have? And I think that I would say that what I want is for it to open people's ears, you know, open people's minds and open people's hearts. Nina Simone was interviewed once and she said, you know, we're all walking through the world in a way a little dead inside. Like we're just getting through our day, you know, and we're dealing with our things. And so we don't really see what's around us and we don't really interact with what's around us. It's just we're getting through. And so we're all walking around kind of like zombies. And what I want— what she said, she said, what I want to do with my art is I want people to feel something, anything, just to feel something, to shake us out of that space. And I thought You know, that's it. I just want people to feel something, and I want people to, to know that this music that is considered very elite and rare and, you know, all of those things, that actually they have a cultural history with it as well. Like, it is not something that they have to be on the outside looking in, that their grandparents and their great-grandparents, you know, broke barriers and we're the first Black conductor and, you know, and the first Black composer to win this prize and the first Black, you know, violinist. That there's a long history of Black people in classical music and that they should know it as they know, you know, the history of African Americans in America, for example.

Now, there are so many ways to look at this. So let's, let's go back, talk about the mission of your Juneteenth LP. And you briefly mentioned, but Are you looking for, let's say, platform to give the general audience to get to know the classical music by maybe doing in such a way that it's more inviting? Or in the end, do you want to promote inclusion in classical music? Or maybe both?

I was about to say, I'm not sure that those are mutually exclusive at all. You know, I do want it to be more inviting, and if and also multigenerational, right? So we play music by Black classical composers, but we also play, you know, we'll play a Lizzo arrangement and we'll play some arrangement of Stevie Wonder and we'll play an arrangement of Nina Simone and we'll play some Duke Ellington. And so all of a sudden you have a show in which like a 7-year-old is delighted that they hear something that they recognize, but also grandma and grandpa are delighted that they hear something that they love and recognize. And in between they're also being exposed to such a wide breadth of different composers, and so that it's something that people can share sort of within the whole family, and that's wonderful, but also an introduction to, you know, you love song. Well, H.T. Burleigh wrote some of the most beautiful art songs, and some of them were arrangements of spirituals, which I know you know because, you know, you're a churchgoing person and your family's from the South originally. So here's this music that is a part of your legacy, but you didn't realize also lives in the classical music canon. But I also think that classical music needs to sort of rethink how it wants to present itself, you know? And I think that contemporary classical composers, a lot of them are grappling with this and they're sort of writing in a way that's challenging norms and trying to get people to listen differently and think differently about the music. But also I think that we need to invite people who are not necessarily white and wealthy to like, because if we don't grow that audience, it will become tinier and tinier and tinier until there is, until we have, you know what I mean? Like, why not grow the audience so that we can actually make sure that the kids that we're teaching who want to be pianists will have audiences to play for, you know?

Yep. We are raising the audience also. Yes, not just the music players. I know, I totally understand. Now I'm curious to know how you are accomplishing this mission. So is it by the concert series or just one event? Or tell us.

So we have sort of grown out of this, you know, one show. We've grown into sort of a Juneteenth festival week where we present more than one concert. We do about 3 or 4. And we do video concerts for other places where it's like, you know, it's really expensive for 8 people to go to Boston. So, you know, Bunker Hill Community College, we do a Juneteenth show for them that is recorded. But we also do lectures and workshops and master classes and things like that.

Throughout the year or?

Yeah, throughout the year. Yeah, mostly January to June, but throughout the year. One of the things that I'm realizing is that because I am the artistic director, of Juneteenth LP, a lot of times what I do also becomes sort of a reflection of the ensemble as well. So when I give a masterclass or when I present concerts and lectures, it is something that I always make sure to mention Juneteenth LP, like we're sort of interconnected unity. It's not, sorry, interconnected entities. It's not just I'm a solo artist and I am a teacher and I do these things and then there's Juneteenth LP and that's a completely different thing.

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You're listening to a podcast right now. Driving, working out, walking the dog. If you're into podcasts, chances are you have something to say too. With RSS.com, starting your own is free and easy. Upload an episode and we distribute it to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and hundreds more. Track your listeners, see where they're from, and start earning from ads like this. Even with just 10 listeners a month. If you've been thinking about starting a podcast, this is your sign. Start free at RSS.com. Often we find, I find that we're working very much in conjunction, like our, our missions are the same, whether it's me individually or me as part of a group and our intentions and our goals and our aesthetics principles are the same. So I'm still trying to sort out how that's going to work. Ultimately, but the drive is similar. And so sometimes, you know, we do things hand in hand. Like, for example, my album is actually sort of— has been released under the Juneteenth LP umbrella of recording projects. It's just the first of a bunch of recording projects that we have.

Oh, you mean the latest album that you— it's your solo album, right? Yeah, we're going to talk about that later, but the title is Luminous.

Yes.

Right, which is available on major—

MSR Classics label was— we released it through MSR Classics, and it's available wherever you stream music.

You know, on the Juneteenth LP website, it says, quote, Juneteenth LP brings together unexpected classical music and brilliantly crafted arrangements of more popular repertoire for a refreshing take on live performances and educational music experiences. So I'm curious, what are you guys playing and what are unexpected classical music, which I can almost guess, and a brilliantly crafted arrangement? And you mentioned that there are sometimes you do the arrangement by, you know, Stevie Wonder to many other— like, I saw an arrangement by Childish Gambino, and then yeah, also Mungo Santa Maria, Afro Blue. Yeah, I saw that arrangement as well. So who does these arrangements? And also you are doing popular music and also probably African-American— classical music as well. So tell us.

When I was— I'm going to go back a little bit. When I was a kid, I actually— the first music camp I went to was a school for composers, a summer school for composers. It was called the Walden School, and it's up in New Hampshire. It still exists. It's a wonderful, wonderful institution. And in that space, I got introduced to theory, ear training, and composition. And their philosophy is really interesting. It's basically that whatever they're teaching, it's orally based. So it's, you don't know it unless you can hear it. You can hear it, you can take dictation on it, you can sing it, you can, you know, which is very different. And I didn't realize how different it was till I got to college. And It's a wonderful— it was a wonderful experience. But what it did was it also introduced me to the idea of everyone is and can be a composer and should be to some extent. If you are in music, you should also be composing. You don't have to be composing like you're a serious composer and you're out getting commissions and that's how you earn your living. But you should always be playing around with your instrument and making stuff up. Who does the arrangements? Well, I have tackled some arrangements, and because we were going to be doing more different genres, I started taking jazz piano lessons, which was a hilarious experience because I will admit right now that I was a terri— I am a terrible student in so many ways because there's no time, right? And jazz is not one of those 'Oh yeah, you know, I play classical music and I have great chops, and so I'll just pick this thing up.' Some people can and do, but that's a different— that's almost a different talent, you know what I mean? Like, they— and, you know, and it's so funny because people say, 'Well, you play the piano, you should be able to do this,' and I'm like, 'Yeah, not necessarily.' It's different.

No, no, I know, I know. I try, I tried it miserably, failed, right? I totally understand. Yes.

What's fascinating about studying jazz piano is that you're forced to— you have to reconcile yourself to the fact that our training, for the most part— I know that there are places that train musicians really, really well, but for the most part in classical music, we are very visually attached to the page and then we render the page, right? And I've had people say to me, well, that isn't very creative. And I said, well, actually it is because you make choices. What you want to bring out, what you think is important. You know, you're basically a field guide for the listener. This is the line I want you to hear, and this is how it— you know, I'm shaping a phrase in a certain way, but it's subtle and it's nuanced. And I can understand that it feels very different from a jazz type of form where you are creating in the moment. But as you and I both know, in every piano lesson we ever took, our teachers would tell us, exhort us to play in such a way that it sounds like we are creating this music in the moment, right? So from a very different way, like almost like a backwards way around, we are studying the score and learning and studying context and history so that we can come to this place where it sounds like we are making the music as we— you know what I mean? We are creating it as we play it. And jazz musicians actually just create it, right? And what is fascinating about that is you can think that you know harmony, but creating as your harmonic language shifts in time and, you know, in time, like harmony shifting in time and you have to— it just moves like the second hand of a clock just moves. You don't get to revisit. I didn't like how that goes. And so I'm going back. It's we're on to the next, you know. Right, right. You know, if you're playing a 12-bar blues, let's swing around and it'll come back again. You get to try again., but this is what it is. And it's the very— it took a long time for me to let go of the, I didn't, I didn't like that, let me fix it. But once you do start to do that, and once you start, you allow yourself to be not comfortable, because that's the thing, we work so hard to make it perfect that there's a level of, I am prepared and I am secure. That absolutely does not exist. Well, at least not as a jazz student, I'm sure. You know, if you're Ron Carter, it exists, but it doesn't exist for me. And it doesn't exist for most people who are just starting where it is, it's a whole other world.

I totally understand. So during the program of Juneteenth LP, you combine this jazz elements and then with the classical elements and then pop too, right? Wow. That is really, really cool because I would love to attend that.

Yeah, I mean, you're always welcome, and I would be delighted to get you a ticket. But what's interesting is that because I started studying jazz and I started saying, can we arrange this tune? Like, I thought Afro Blue would be perfect for us, let's arrange it. And I was working with Neal Kirkwood at Third Street, and he would help me with some arrangements, but also, you know, I would tweak a lot of the things. And so it was a real collaborative process, which I enjoyed, but I started to become a little bit more comfortable with improvising. And then we started sort of, well, there's this song and we all love it, but we're going to have a break where individuals can solo. And I would be soloing sometimes and it was terrifying. It still actually is.

But, you know, are you improvising?

I am improvising. It is. Nuts. And you know what's really funny? In the same way that when, you know, you give a concert and you think, oh, that was okay, I didn't like the way I did this and I didn't like the way I did that, and then a month later you listen to the concert and you say, wow, that was really good, why did I think it wasn't good, that was really good. It's the same thing. Like, I will improvise and, well, whatever, just keep moving, it wasn't— I don't know, hopefully nobody noticed. And then I listen to it and I think, well, That wasn't terrible at all.

Hello, right? That's great.

And so it's teaching me to be okay with uncertainty and to be okay with not being able to control everything.

That is a very different concept from classical performance.

Yes. But I think that what you need to be in control of when you're improvising, you need to be in control of the harmonic language. Like, you need to know that. And then with that framework, The world is your oyster, but also terrifying.

Yes. One of the things that was monumental was that obviously 2020 of the Black Lives Matter movement. And then you are already starting the Juneteenth LP before that, right? And then so the 2020, the year 2020 of the Black Lives Matter movement, which brought the day, the Juneteenth, to many people's awareness finally, and especially unfortunate death of Mr. George Floyd. And of course, finally Juneteenth became a federal holiday in 2021. So I'd like to know your own personal experience of that year as much as you can. I know it's still a sensitive topic, but because you have already started this project before that, and what's been like with your Juneteenth LP journey since then?

Well, when I started, I was kind of— I was talking about the fact that I wanted to celebrate is everything.

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You're listening to a podcast right now. Driving, working out, walking the dog. If you're into podcasts, chances are you have something to say too. With RSS.com, starting your own is free and easy. Upload an episode and we distribute it to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and hundreds more. Track your listeners, see where they're from, and start earning from ads like this, even with just 10 listeners a month. If you've been thinking about starting a podcast, This is your sign. Start free at RSS.com. Celebrate Juneteenth Freedom Day, right? It's called Freedom Day or Liberation Day. I wanted to celebrate it from an artist's standpoint, so I wanted to celebrate these musicians who post Juneteenth, their world was far more open than it had ever been. And I'm not saying that it was easy and all of a sudden people had access to everything, but you had the opportunity possibly to have a life that wasn't plantation-bound necessarily, right? And so what did people do with that freedom? And taking that step into the unknown is actually a terrifying thing. Like, if you were raised in a plantation system, or if you were raised in subjugation, or you were raised in, you know, one kind of climate, and then you decide that you want something different for yourself You know, and it's sometimes not as obvious as slaved and then not enslaved, you know, slave and then free. It is sometimes as— it can be as nuanced as you come from a family of people who believe that the next generation should lift up the next generation, and so everyone is going to go to college and become a professor or a doctor or a lawyer, and then someone says, yeah, but I, I want to, I want to paint. That is a scary and terrifying path to take if that's not the norm for your family, your tribe, your environment, right? And so I wanted to sort of celebrate these people who were invariably incredible risk-takers, even if they came from musical families. Just to be Black in America and to be doing what they were doing was something extraordinary. And the fact that they persisted, like, in the face of incredible difficulties, they persisted. But then, you know, when George Floyd was killed, it was very interesting. And people ask you what, you know, what was— how did you deal with it or what you were going through? And honestly, and I apologize if this feels harsh, but the hardest thing was realizing to what extent I was people's only Black friend. And so what I got was a lot of other people feeling bad and then thinking they were going to feel better by reaching out to me. Do you know what I'm saying? And in fact, I didn't feel shock for— oh, also, you should know I didn't watch the video. I didn't watch the video because what happened to George Floyd has been happening to, um, Black people for centuries, whether it was a lynching or police violence. I mean, you know, Rodney King was videotaped in— that was 1992, I believe. And what was traumatic about that was not that it happened, because we knew things like that happen, but the fact that there was video and yet it seemed to leave the world relatively unchanged. Do you know what I mean? Like this reckoning that we had post-George Floyd, there should have been a reckoning like that after the Rodney King assault, but there wasn't, you know? And it seemed to me that, I think that there was something particularly gruesome about George Floyd's death and the fact that we now live in a viral age. So you could miss the Rodney King thing if you hadn't been watching TV at that time, but you could not escape what happened with George Floyd. It was everywhere. And so for me, I was more grieving at how often it seemed to happen. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

And in some ways the world changed. And so I'm grateful for that. And I'm grateful that— I'm of course happy that Juneteenth is now a federal holiday. But it also made me realize there's something bizarrely— there's something a little bit obscene with how immediately, suddenly there were Juneteenth events. Do you know what I mean?

That—

and it reminded me, oh yeah, this is a business too, isn't it? And so, yeah, you know, and I'm glad that there are events, but also there's something a little bit gross about it, you know? It's hard, you know, like it's not a— it's not a fun conversation to have, but like I said, I'm really grateful that it's You know, it should be a national holiday, so I'm glad that it is.

But, you know, by asking this question, I don't mean to like put you in a place or spot where you are like all of a sudden the representative of this whole entire Juneteenth or Black Lives Matter movement. No.

And I didn't, I didn't receive it that way at all.

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I appreciate the question because it's It allows me to sort of, you know, I don't think I've articulated this. I've had an opportunity to articulate this. And so I was, I'm glad to do it. You know, it's funny. I say this to my friends often. There are a lot of things that were made possible because of George Floyd's death. And it is horrible and horrifying that that was the case, but I mean, it changed us, and I'm glad it did, you know, because it would be appalling if something like that were to happen and it didn't change us, right? You know, even, you know, you could argue whether it's changed us societally a lot or a little, but I'm grateful. And I'm devastated that people had to lose their— like, a family had to lose someone that they loved, you know, for this to happen. It's kind of like when Martin Luther King was assassinated and Malcolm X were assassinated, was assassinated, you kind of, those were turning points in American history. But did someone have to die? Did children have to lose their parents? Did a woman have to, did women have to lose their husbands behind that?

But I don't know, I'm getting a little, I know it's, it's a very tough topic and I'm sorry. Um, but I appreciate you for really opening up and telling me because it's important to talk about and we need to do better too, you know. It's not just that his death, but I think we have to do even better. So yeah, thank you for opening up. So just to change the mood of our conversation, I really wanna congratulate you for all the hard work you spend with the, especially Juneteenth LP, and then your dedication was finally recognized in 2022 last year when you received the Chamber of Music America Artist Grant. And this accolade transformed your annual Juneteenth celebration from a one-night event at the Joe's Pub at the Public Theater to a week-long New York City extravaganza. Congratulations. So I know to get a grant from the government, right? That's not easy. Extremely difficult.

Yes. Chamber Music America is, I think, a private organization. But I mean, this year I am applying for city and state grants. You know, it is a long and arduous process. And I was very lucky to have one of my team members who was just there. And, you know, it took us consistent work over together, working together over the course of a month to prepare this grant proposal. But what was really interesting about it was that it really does lay the groundwork for— we— so we got to learn how to apply for grants from an organizational level or, you know, and it's different from applying for a grant as an individual. And so that was an incredible sort of steep learning curve. And as I am applying for grants now in this round, it's a lot easier in some ways. I don't have the same team members, but it is easier because that groundwork was laid, you know. But I will say that it is a constant struggle of getting your projects funded, getting, you know, getting funding for your projects so that you can present. And I tell people all the time, I feel like that no matter what I do, there's always this next challenge on the horizon that is unlike anything I've done before. And so it feels like I'm a beginner again and again and again. And I thought to myself, but you know what? I remember telling students, you have to be unafraid to not know what's going on, that you have to be okay with not knowing because eventually you work at it and then you will know. But then there'll be another challenge, you know. I know.

Totally, totally. But congratulations. That's a big thing. And then, you know, I really hope to attend the future events. And I know this Juneteenth LP is going to be even bigger because the message is right. So I also want to know a little bit about other musicians who are involved, like who's the member or who would be the guest.

One of the first people that I met doing the show was cellist Eric Cooper. He's a really amazing musician, but also he has a quartet called Sterling Strings, and this quartet does really amazing work, and they do these great arrangements of popular music. Their improvising chops are wonderful, and it's very funny when we're in rehearsal because, you know, we're doing Childish Gambino or Lizzo or whatever, and they're like, "Yeah, you know, we're very familiar with this. Let's just play it through and go," and I'm like, I am not familiar with this. I am not familiar with improvising, and I need to play it more than once. So we're coming from very different places, and they're like, "Yes, no problem." And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is so hard." But it's great to be able to work with an ensemble that is so capable in that way. And so we have a singer, and we have our newest singer is Kristen Devine. She has this really wonderful voice, and it's been a pleasure working with her. And we have this fabulous, fabulous percussionist Shirazette Tinnin, who is just absolutely brilliant. She and her ensemble opened up the Women in Jazz series up here in Harlem.

I—

oh, I can't believe I forgot to mention. So our first violinist, Frederique Naaman, is an African-Caribbean violinist from the Boston area, and she is a powerhouse arranger. And so she's been doing a lot of our arrangements. But also this year, I believe Shirazet is going to do a couple of arrangements for us. And so we're just kind of collecting these musicians that vibe with us well. I just feel really lucky that a group of musicians that we— and not only do we enjoy playing together, you know, it's a really great energy, but also we just enjoy hanging out.

That is wonderful. That's a dream come true. It's very hard to collaborate, but that speaks volume about you. You know, you have that ability to put things together, put people together. So what would you like your audience to experience from attending the concerts?

I want them to hear music they've never heard before and hopefully be delighted by it and hopefully be interested and engaged. I want them to come away with it thinking, I want to know more about Margaret Bonds, I want to know more about William Grant Still. I want to know more about whomever we presented. That's, that's what I want. And what's great is that we live in an era where they can literally put that in their phone and pull up, you know, whatever Trevor Weston's got, whatever Nkiro Okoye has got. There's a SoundCloud for that. There's a Spotify. Primarily, that's what I want. And also, I want them to hear pop standards or blues standards or whatever. In a different way because we're playing it. There are strings. How much Marvin Gaye have you heard that's been, you know, string-centered, string-heavy, or string-forward?

Oh, I would love to hear that.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's a lot of fun and it's a lot of— it's really engaging.

Before I, you know, we go to the next segment, which is about your life, but I want to ask one last question from this Juneteenth LP. What did you gain or what important life lesson did you experience from launching and building the Juneteenth LP?

What I've learned is that the most important thing that you can do is to put one foot in front of the other. It doesn't matter if it feels like it's working. It doesn't matter if it feels like it's right. Just you have to get up and you have to put one foot in front of the other. And my mother used to talk about this. She struggled, you know, as we all do. And I, and I remember saying to her, how, how were you able to do that? How were you able to work from 3 PM to midnight because they wouldn't give you a reasonable shift at the hospital, and then get up at 6 in the morning to take me to school? How did you do that? And she said two things. She said, well, first of all, when you have kids, you become capable of all kinds of things that you know darn well you could not do if you didn't have these kids to take care of. But also, and I'd heard her say this to more than a few people, I'm just stumbling and bumbling along. Like, it doesn't look right, it doesn't feel right, it doesn't seem like I'm succeeding. I'm just— today I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna try again. That's the thing that is the most important thing. And I think that people who build things that last just persist. Do you remember that speed skater? Was his name Eric Heiden? There was a speed skater who kept— in the Olympics, and the Olympics every 4 years— he kept skating, and like, you'd— he'd make it to the— and he would fall. He would fall. He would not be able to fit. And he was always— he was always clearly like the best. They expected him to win, and yet something would always happen, and something would always happen. I think it was like 4th Olympics. Do you know how old— like, athletes do not have a long shelf life, right? Right. And when he finally broke through and won, it was like the whole world was unified in this moment of, my gosh, like, yes, you know? And in a way, he will be remembered forever. I get choked up when I remember his breakthrough, do you know what I mean? And I, and I remember where I was watching each time he didn't and each time he crashed and burned and sort of weak families watching the Olympics again. And then it happened. It takes what feels like forever to achieve the thing that you're trying to achieve. Your job is not to predict when your success is going to happen. And your job is not to, you know, you're not in charge of the universe. You don't get to know if it's going to happen tomorrow, if it's going to happen in 20 years. Your job is to get up in the morning and say, I am committed to this thing that I'm gonna do, and so I'm gonna do it. And sometimes it is exhausting, and it is lonely, and it is frustrating, and you're— you're— you feel broken half the times that you're doing it. But also, when you do get to that level, you realize that you are enjoying it because you knew what it took, right? And then also you realize, oh, there's another mountain. I climbed this. Oh, there's another mountain. Right. Yeah. I'm never comfortable because it is always striving and always climbing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hear you. And thank you for the reminder because, you know, sometimes when I do this podcast, it's— I enjoy it, but it's like, like you said, one foot in front of the other. It's like every day you do this, that matters. It's not about when you achieve, how much you achieve. And that's a wrap for the first part of this engaging episode on The Piano Pod with a guest, Dr. Nena Ogwu. If you have been enjoying our episodes, please take a moment to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. You can also watch our episodes on The Piano Pod's YouTube channel. As we kick off our fourth this season, we owe it all to your support. Since 2020, we've been exploring how to make classical music resonate in fresh ways with today's audience. But to continue bringing you these episodes, we need your support. Every contribution goes toward essential podcast expenses. Wanna be part of this journey? Click the PayPal link in the show notes or visit thepianopod.com to donate. I'll I'll personally mail you The Piano Pod's logo sticker as a token of gratitude. So hit that subscribe button, spread the word, and don't forget to follow The Piano Pod on social media. The links are in the description. Tune in next Tuesday, October 24th, at 8 PM for the rest of the interview with Dr. Nana Oguo.

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