Part 2 of Season 1, Episode 12: Jim Ridl - Jazz Pianist and Composer

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You are listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century.

Last time, we spoke to Jim Riddle about how he became a jazz pianist, early jazz education, and 12-bar blues form. And now, the conclusion.

So I have a technical question. So, um, uh, it's so envious to watch you guys, jazz players, because that's— this is— that's your language. Like, you jump in with your language, as opposed to classical musicians. We borrow someone's composition, then, you know, eventually, after so many hours of practicing that piece, same piece, then that becomes my language. It's a different kind of outlet, artistic outlet, you know. So, but fundamentally we're pianists, so there's so many things that we share. For example, technical exercises, you know, and we also have to practice harmonic progressions. All the harmonic progressions in Western classical music to jazz is different, but there's the exercises we have to do and rhythm. So could you tell us what kind of technical practice you do as a jazz pianist?

Well, it's my own personal thing. I think after playing for so many years, I don't have like a specific— well, I have a little bit of a routine, but I don't go through like all the scales, major and minor. I did. When I was studying, you know, and more so in college and those kinds of things. Um, so I, I, I first want to say that my technique is very much is what I gained from classical, uh, teaching, you know. So yes, we share, we share so much in, in that sense. Um, but I find, uh I play a couple of ideas here. I play a lot of original music, meaning by, by, you know, people in my— in the jazz community. If I'm playing with a particular group or recording, I have to learn their music and the arrangement. Also, I have to be able to improvise on that particular chord progression. And the more difficult it gets, the more I have to practice, and I have to go, I need some kind of anchor of ideas because this is very challenging. It's— I'm not so used to it. So technically, uh, I will have to go— I have to find some things that just aren't my normal thing. So technically, I'll need to practice, uh, literally some of the scales where I go, oh, I, at least I have something to say by playing such and such a scale, right? That's very much kind of in the moment of, you know, an original piece of music that I have to learn. So therefore, that's my technique is being utilized in that way. But in a more fundamental sense, I'll sit down at the piano Well, let me see, let me see what happens. I'll just demonstrate some of the things I do. I tend to go there, but I'll totally admit, and this is recorded, I'm like hanging in C. F and G, and then I'll— but I'm not getting— but then I did C and the key of E at the same time, right? Which was, uh, I like that because it just— it's the actually the same fingering, so it makes it kind of easy, but I like the sound.

Sure, sure.

So that also opens up my harmonic mind, yet I'm still practicing, uh, like the fundamental fingerings of that. Um, and then I would get into some other things of a 6-note scale and then the full 7-note scale and things like that. I'll also do some harmonic things like this. So with this, uh, I started to get into something. I mean, this whole thing, very classical in a way.

It's—

sure, it's just, uh, but I'm going in 6th. Now in my left hand, I'm improvising as I kind of warm up and as I practice. In my left hand, I can go anywhere I want. Those are things I just will start improvising like that, but I, I tend to go to the same spot in a way, same area, and then it warms me up, and the more I kind of stay with it then I'll feel more comfortable to like kind of break out of that kind of key area, maybe move it up a half step, which is more difficult because maybe I'm not playing in that area so often. But the same idea, maybe same rhythmic idea. It kind of gets, uh, I start to feel more warm in my arms and, uh, in my hands and You know what it's like when you're a little bit cold, it doesn't flow as much, but that helps me. If that— Yukimi, is that helpful to your—

Very much. And you know what? I am going to tell my students today that how important learning to play scales and chords. I am going to do it today.

Yeah, great.

Because this Maestro Jim Riddle told me so. So that's right. Thank you so much. It's, it's really such a great, great, great, uh, uh, uh, uh, improv that you showed us. So it's, it's wonderful. Thank you.

Well, you're welcome. And, and also, it was, uh, it wasn't particularly like linear, like say a, a wonderful saxophone line, you know, like you associate with jazz, is, is, uh to me from the horn players— trumpet, you know, saxophone, trombone. This is, you know, idiomatic in a way to our instrument of piano, where, um, you know, we, we have the orchestra, and so we can play orchestrally like this. You can dig in on some chords. I, I, in some ways, I don't know, I'd have to analyze it. What was I playing? Well, uh, I'm not so sure, but another idea of improvising but warming up. So my right hand stayed with these kind of three, uh, inversions of a major triad. But up, but up, but up. So this thing, my right hand's kind of static, but then it gives my left hand room to go some different places, and it's 12-tone. I don't care, I can go wherever I want. But then I could reverse it, keep the left hand more static, kind of an ostinato kind of thing, and then open up with my right hand. So it's, uh, it's kind of free that way, but I'm still accomplishing the thing of opening up my harmonic mind. I'm warming up a bit, and I'm getting into some technical stuff that maybe it will lead me to some new things, you know, that I haven't played before, which is important as an improvising artist, you know.

So, Jim, will you take me as a student? I mean, I, you know, during the pandemic, I've tried, um, you know, this, uh, online teaching thing, and, uh, it was on demand. Um, I was trying to learn how to improv better. With jazz. He was a jazz pianist, but it didn't go well because it's on demand, it's not live. And also, you're an amazing teacher as well, you know.

So thank you.

I, I want to learn from you.

Sure. I mean, I, I think, uh, I, I would also say that, uh, I mean, as you, you guys are performers but teachers, and so, you know, there, there's, uh, we're giving access to to our students to, you know, help them along. You know, but I think in some ways, maybe like with what I just showed, it's a little more unconventional way of improvising, but I think it's all about just being loose. Like, I'm not a classical musician, but some of this was classical technique. I would say, but up, but up, but up, but up. You hear that in Rachmaninoff Piano Concerto from one of my favorite, the third or fourth or whatever it is. And also like in Chopin and stuff like that where I take it and I kind of go off for a while. So that can be incorporated into one's own teaching, one's own practice.

So, okay, I have exactly 2 more questions, but they're kind of big ones. I know we're running short on time, but Jim, you just, you really inspired me with your demonstration. And my first question is, um, I feel like we've been talking about a lot of high-level stuff. Now the 3 of us are all teachers of young children, and so what I'm wondering is how do we demonstrate some of these concepts at that level? Um, you know, for kids who are just starting out? You know, I feel like whenever I've talked to jazzers about how do you get started learning jazz, of course they say the recordings, but they always throw like this big book at me too, you know, like, oh yeah, go, go check out this book. And then I look at it, I was like, oh boy, this is really thick. And certainly you can't give that to like an 8-year-old. So how would you approach that?

Um, I would— the— it's a great question, and I'll be upfront, I don't teach, uh, little, little kids. I mean, and, and, and I don't teach like way beginner adults. I mean, they kind of have to— I, that's just been my preference in my way because I don't think that I would be, uh, the fundamentals have to address, be addressed like really, really well. And I might be a little spotty with that. So anyway, fair enough. But this, this is what I can say with, with, uh, with kids. If you do a call and answer, you know, if you do singing, but if you go— sorry, I don't have perfect pitch. You know, where you're not even going, oh, it's this chord, it's this modality, it's this tonality. It's just, you're going, no, repeat after me, you know. And then you get into this back and forth, and then you go, oh, like, uh, maybe the first if you're doing like a, like a Mozart or Beethoven or some whatever fundamental piece, and it's a major, it's a major harmonic thing, but maybe in the melody it has a major third to the tonic, and you go, oh hey, that's in the little Mozart, that's in the Mozart piece, or the Beethoven, or the Bach, right? And so therefore they, they're just going, oh yeah, it's that interval, okay, but we don't We're not going to swing the eighth notes, but you could do call and answer, not swinging it. Ba ba ba ba ba. You know, and they go ba ba ba ba ba. They start to get a sense of their ear, a sense of time, you know, and the feel of it, the exchange, the tempo. And in that sense, I think you can lead into jazz because that's where it started. You know, the call and answer in the fields of the, you know, of the Black Americans, you know, starting in slavery. I mean, it comes from a very, very deep place, but that comes from Africa, right? You know, all of that. And then whatever, I mean, we have all these resources, but it was like, it's this verbal— I think our verbal exchange, singing exchange, but you can do it on the instrument And I don't know. And maybe you guys are already doing that, but I think it's a great way to lead into kind of, oh, here's the inside of— oh, I never realized that was like a major triad. All of a sudden, you connect this kind of intellectual or a little more academic thing to it. Because at some point, they will need to know. What they're playing, and especially with jazz, because it just doesn't fall from the sky. That, that is not true about this music. It's a— everybody works their tail off at it, just like they do in every style of music. And there's a lot of structure to it, but inside the structure, it's very free, right? So you, you know, everybody has to put their time in with theory with technique, tons of listening, tons of imitating, you know, but anyway.

Yeah, yeah, fantastic answer. Thank you so much. I'm definitely going to use that. I'm trying to incorporate more improv into my lessons lately, make that more of a focus. I think call and response is a great idea.

And the blues scale would be great.

Sure.

Because it's all of a sudden they'll relate to it because, well, why wouldn't they? There's nothing, no barrier. That says they can or cannot, or that they can't. It's just, uh, it's just a scale, but it's going to be this— oh, oh wow, okay.

Yeah, so anyway, so sorry guys, I know we're running a little long, but I have to ask this last question. So when you were warming up, you know, at, um, at a certain point I thought, this sounds very much like a classical étude. You know, he's just improvising his own etude right here. And then that got me thinking, okay, so where— how do you, um, uh, how do I say it? It's like, so where does improv end and composition begin? Like, when do you call something a composition, and what's different about that?

Uh, well, uh, for me, but I would say for probably most composers, not all composers, I write at the piano. So my compositions come from improvising at the piano. And then I— if something starts to develop and I keep repeating this particular chord progression and/or melody together, then I go, ah, I want to develop this further and I want it to be a complete— I want to complete it. So and maybe I want to come— especially becomes a composition if I need to complete it for an ensemble. Okay, you know, so yeah, I mean, there you can, uh, compose, you know, compose, you can improvise a composition on the spot. Okay, still, still really an improvisation, but if you— I suppose if you write it down, if you in some manner that you're going to convey this to other musicians, and you put it on a recording— well, I don't know, you put it on a recording, it's still an improvisation. Like Keith Jarrett, very famous improvisations that, uh, in essence were, uh, compositions. But yeah, that to me, that's where it starts, is the improvisation gives you these ideas. To, uh, you know, uh, but you know, like Bach of course was a, you know, most amazing improviser. But I, I read this, I believe I got it right, that after a while he wasn't even at the piano when he was composing, right? He was just up in his desk wherever and, you know, writing all these things down. And it's just like, that's like mind-blowing to think of that. But in that sense, maybe, maybe he was improvising in his head, like, ah, no, I'll try this. But he's not playing any instrument. It's freaky, right?

Yeah, I, I know I heard once that Shostakovich used to go to other people's concerts and compose while he was there.

Wow.

Which is a whole other level— listening to one music, composing another. But what I'm getting from you is that basically improvisation is composition. It's just a matter of like, when do you say, okay, that's done. It's in some kind of concrete form now, which doesn't mean it can't still change.

Yeah, I would clarify a little bit further though. There are some unbelievable improvisers, and I'll be specific in jazz, that maybe they have very little composing. Maybe not so much composing, but like always take incredible solos. Excuse me. And so it— yes, it's, it's a compositional space, but I, I think it can be difficult for some great improvising musicians to all of a sudden go, oh, I, I need to write this down, because they have to have— of course they have to have their the way to write it down. They have to be very, very clear and go, okay, it can be 12 measures, but what if it's like a through-composed thing? Are they gonna— and who's gonna solo where, and where do these instruments come in? I, I think it— not everybody's so suited to it, but they're like, uh, like, okay, in a jazz big band, there's the lead trumpet player who hits like all the you know, he's leading the pack and he's hitting often very high notes. A lot of times those players, they can improvise, but that's not their thing. They're actually more reading the notes in that kind of classical sense. Okay, but they're, they're not, uh, they kind of shy away from improvising. Of course they improvise because— but they rarely get solos.

I see.

It's the second or third or fourth, fifth trumpet player that does more of the soloing. Interesting. I mean, I didn't know that until later, you know.

But yeah, I certainly didn't know that.

So, so there's some— it's like an anomaly, but there's still improvisers, but their main thing is, is, uh, a particular direction. And then there are some jazz musicians who maybe over the course of their career became Like man composition, or the orchestra is their instrument, and of course they're still improvising to come up with ideas, but that's not their public display or voice. Their public voice is their compositions. Like Gil Evans, do you know that name?

I'm not sure.

He was the great composer and arranger that did with Miles Davis did, uh, uh, Sketches of Spain. Um, what else did he do? They did like 3 monumental records. Anyway, a great band leader, composer, but not the player in the sense of what we, you know. Okay, so anyway, different avenues, avenues of expression.

So For now, we're going to go into the rapid-fire questions. All right, are you ready?

Sure.

Good. All right, what is your comfort food?

Um, oh my gosh, that isn't a food group. Oh my gosh, uh, french fries. No, potato chips.

I love it, so American. Cats or dogs? Cats. All right, what is your word or words to live by?

Compassion.

Beautiful.

Wonderful.

What is the most important quality you look for in people?

Uh, quality I look for in people?

Yes.

Uh, kindness.

That's beautiful. What is the worst quality in people you want to stay away from?

Uh, self-importance.

Got it.

Overly self-important. Yeah.

All right, I'm going to next. So, Jim, name 3 people who inspire you, living or dead.

Uh, John Lewis, the great, uh, congressman. Um, Top of my head, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the Supreme Court Justice. And my oldest brother, who was a poet and musician and addictions counselor.

Wow. Which historical figure or composer do you want to learn or take lessons from? If she or he were alive?

Uh, Bach, for sure.

Yeah.

Great.

I'd want to hang with Bach.

Which historical figure or composer do you wish to hang out at the bar if he or she were alive?

Uh, well, let me see, uh, Stravinsky, because I think he liked to drink too, so a bar would be a good, uh—

So, uh, what's one piece in your current playlist?

Oh, things I listen to?

Yeah.

The St. Matthew Passion.

Okay.

For Easter, and I did not listen to the whole thing. It's quite long, but I just love, love that music. And, you know, it's just always revealing more beauty and depth. But yeah, that's the most current thing I would listen to. Okay, yeah.

Of course, a piece you can come back to time and again. What about a book title you're currently reading?

Man, what am I reading? I read a lot. Oh, I'm reading the prequel to Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett. He's a British author, but he had this book that was— it's called The Morning and Afternoon or something like that. But anyway, it's a very interesting book. And it takes place in the 11th century, like when they started to build cathedrals, and it's about cathedral building, but it's fiction.

But it's, uh, so, okay, that sounds interesting.

One of the things I'm doing. Yeah.

All right. Our most popular question: if you only get one song or piece to listen to for the rest of your life, or recording, what is it?

This is supposed to be rapid fire. I'm so— I'm such a loser.

No, you're in good company. I think we were worse than any of our guests when we did it, or I was anyway.

So it's like kind of the desert island, uh, yes, exactly, piece. Uh, well, I, I just got to say something. Maybe, uh, Adagio for Strings, which it would be kind of a bummer if that— unbelievable music, but that, that popped into my head. But that's also, it's, it's just so inside that.

Yeah.

You know, so I know I'd think of something later, but—

Yeah, I've actually been listening to that a lot myself recently, but I feel like your days on that desert island might be numbered if that's what you're listening to exclusively.

Yeah, time to go for a swim.

Yeah.

Okay, finally, fill in the blank: jazz is blank.

Freedom.

Jazz is freedom.

Okay, fantastic.

Wow, wonderful. Thank you.

You win!

That was so great. Well, so, well, we want to keep on going, but for now, that concludes this episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Jim O'Connell. Thank you, Jim, for joining our show today.

Oh, thank you. Thank you, Clara, Yukimi, and, and Eric. I, I I appreciate it. My pleasure.

Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your expertise, and thank you for our audience for tuning in today. We want to remind the listeners and the viewers of this episode that Jim also continues to perform at the Soapbox Gallery during the pandemic, livestreamed, I assume, to actually worldwide, monthly in Brooklyn. Please follow their Facebook page and follow Jim's personal Facebook page for all the concert updates.

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Hope to see you for the future episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. Thank you very much, everyone.

Bye, everyone.

Bye, everybody.

Thank you, Jim.

Thank you, Jim.

Thank you.

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