Season 3 Episode 15 Part 2 -- Dr. Alan Moverman, Piano Soloist at New York City Ballet

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Dancing to people— actually, for one thing, they're going to be dancing to people that can't really see them while they're playing. So obviously they're dancing to the music, so you can't follow them. In the same way that you follow a singer. As a rule, you have to keep in mind that they need structure. You can't see them, so they know where the music is. They need to know where the music is. That's, in a way, your primary responsibility is a structural responsibility.

Welcome back to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. Thanks for tuning in for the second half of Season 3, Episode 15 with a guest, Dr. Alan Mulverman, pianosoloist at New York City Ballet. In part 2, you will get to hear Alan's take on what makes someone to be the greatest ballet pianist and what it's like to work with world-renowned dancers and choreographers at New York City Ballet and more. Before continuing the show, I want to welcome everybody listening to The Piano Pod for the first time. I'm a classical pianist and educator from New York City, passionate about creating a thriving and meaningful community of the classical music industry through this podcast. Please visit yukimisongstudio.com to find out more about my work. In each episode of The Piano Pod, I interview a guest speaker who has been breaking exciting new ground in the industry. Please rate the show and review it on your favorite podcasting platform because every rating review will help people find my show. So my friends, here is Part 2 of The Piano Pod Season 3, Episode 15 with Alan Moverman. Please enjoy the show.

Our old boss Gordon, who was one of the— probably one of the great ballet pianists in history, Gordon Belsner, was Balanchine's kind of right-hand man. He was the man at the piano when Balanchine choreographed all the masterpieces— Nutcracker and— well, not Nutcracker, but he was a little after that time, but all these Stravinsky, you know, it was Gordon, Stravinsky, and Balanchine sitting in the room.

What makes them, these people, the great ballet pianists and soloists?

Well, the music we do is really hard. So you kind of have to be a concert-level pianist to play here, more or less. I mean, that doesn't mean you're András Schiff, but you have to have gone pretty far, played big recitals and And so Gordon was a wonderful pianist. That was the start. He was supremely gifted, beautiful sound, you know, warm, approachable, fantastic technique, you know, immaculate kind of musical thinking. He was a student of Michelangeli. And also, but in a way, something that is maybe a little like me in a certain way, he was a composition student of John Cage.

Wow.

He had like this kind of funky, creative, cool aspect to him that was— that opened him up, you know. He would talk about David Lynch movies and, you know, all these— he had all these interests that were so interesting. And so he was an amazing pianist, but he was also like a wide-ranging person. And he never would have been satisfied, I don't think, with just just struggling with, you know, fine-tuning his Beethoven sonata. I don't think that was his— you know, it's— he wanted to be more with people, I think. And that— I think you have to be not so— maybe not so single-minded about piano. But to play here, you have to start with being basically concert-level pianist. I mean, one of our pianists now, Steve Gosling, he's probably one of the 10 greatest performers of contemporary music in the world. He's incredible. I mean, he, you know, he has like 30 records and, you know, he's played all, you know, this impossible music. You know, Adas and crazy stuff, you know, Stockhausen, all the stuff. And we've had really Susan Walters, who was one of our pianists. She's a fantastic pianist. Elaine Shelton. So anyway, you have to be a good pianist, and— but then you have to have this little— you have to be a good musician. If you have to choose between the two, it's probably better to be a little bit— if you can even divide these things, which is hard— a little better musician than you are a pianist.

Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You have to care more about the music than you care about being Mr. Perfect. Which is kind of a relief in a certain way. If you think about it, it's music is fun.

It sounds like also being musician requires more flexibility, versatility. It's not just about what's on the score, but you also have to read the room, what's going on on the—

Exactly. Read the room is a really good skill. Read the room is saying a lot. I was thinking about that yesterday in my rehearsal. 'cause I was playing Serenade and I was thinking, oh well, the ballet rehearsal director said, oh, it's too fast. They're just remembering it. And, but it's hard because I was at this part in the music which I have trouble playing. And so I was like, is it me or is it— which happens every day. So at that point you have to make a decision. You have to decide, am I going to slow down my tempo? Or if I'm going to slow down, you also have to a little bit ask yourself, was I actually wrong or were they wrong? It's important to keep your sense, your center, you know, like you can change for them but still think they were wrong. It wasn't too fast. Maybe it wasn't too fast. Maybe the dancer, because sometimes they get behind, you know, they're doing fine for a while. Then they have trouble with the step and they're like, oh, it's too fast. So what are you— then if she's like, oh, maybe I rush, you know, and they can say you're rushing when you're— sometimes you're not rushing, sometimes you are.

Right. Yeah. Pianists, we all tend to rush. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now, in your bio, you are saying that you worked with this amazing, the most celebrated choreographers such as Alexei Ratmansky, Jerome Robbins, Justin Peck, and all the wonderful, wonderful choreographers. So even I know of— I've heard of Jerome Robbins, the name, and also he did the choreograph for West Side Story. So you worked with him. Can you tell us how was it like to work with this amazing choreographer?

Well, I mean, all right, I have to say I worked with him at the very end of his life. And I don't think I really experienced the full Jerry Robbins. He was famously hard to work with and critical, you know, unbelievably critical. Apparently it was a, it was a different time. It was an old school. I'm sure things that were done in those days would not have been done the same way now. But by the time I worked with him, He just left me alone because I don't think he had enough energy to bother with me. And, you know, I was the pianist for, or one of the two pianists for choreographing his last ballet, which was Brandenburg. And I also worked with him on a couple of other pieces. But that was my main experience as to movements from several Brandenburg concertos. And a couple other pieces, I think, that aren't in Brandon Burke concertos. So I don't, I don't have any of the great stories. You can read the biography and tell the great stories. And but he was famously difficult. But the only, the only funny thing I remember, I remember two really funny things about him. One was that, you know, to give you an idea of how I stacked up in his hierarchy of people in his life, even though I spent, you know, probably 30 hours with the guy. He'd just say, "Hey you, play!" And so I'd play, you know, and apparently he thought I was okay. He told the people on the fourth floor that, "Oh, he's okay." I was, I had only just started. I think I had only, I think I had only played for 4 months. Then I rehearsed another couple things, Suite of Dances, I played the— which is actually a Bach cello suite, but we rehearsed it on piano and then we brought in Wendy Sutter to play it. At that time it was Wendy. Now it's Ann Kim a lot. So that was funny. But I remember I had one moment with him where he was sitting at the piano next to me on the stage of the theater here. We're at the Koch Theater here, and he was just playing some notes and he just started reminiscing how he used to play the piano, and it was kind of sweet. He was in his mid-70s then, and I don't think he quite made 80. I'm not sure. But people— he was a stressful guy, but obviously a genius. I think I should say, for the people who aren't ballet fans but might be interested in going and checking out, he created a special kind of intimacy on stage between the piano and the dancers in his piano ballets. In particular, the Chopin, also this Tchaikovsky piece. It's really hard to define, but you kind of have to see it. But it was like this kind of very almost quiet theatrical space that you'd feel between the solo pianist and the dancers. I think it had a lot to do with the fact that one of his— I know this for a fact— that one of his inspirations was the ballet studio itself.

Wow.

So you— the connection, I'm sure you felt, being playing for dance classes at some point. Anyone who's played knows that there can be a special quality in the room, and he was able to do something like that with these Chopin pieces. What was interesting is they often had no set. They were often just dancers on stage and piano, kind of pared down, you know. You know, and had a particular quality quality. And even in the fast pieces, like, uh, forget it. But, uh, uh, just a— it was very special. It was very, very special. Different, totally different than Balanchine. All choreographers have a different relationship with music. Some people illustrate the music more, like, lead the audience to understand the music. Some composers respond to the music with their own How do I— okay, here's the music. How do I feel about this? What— this thing I'm confronting? Like, so they could have beautiful music and they could even express something angry sometimes. Maybe they're like, well, I didn't get any of that.

Let's talk about New York City Ballet. How exciting is that, this ballet company is? And you've been working for them for 20 years, 28 years.

28, I think, yeah.

And what's so special about this ballet company?

Well, it's just, I mean, it's just got a lot of great dancers. You know, I mean, you know, it's the top or one of the very tops and they're just wonderful. And that's the main thing. And then we've had the best choreographers.

Here.

I mean, there are other great choreographers, but we've had probably the main ones. Robbins, Balanchine, complete genius. I mean, Balanchine, without Balanchine, a lot of those Stravinsky scores, in my view, don't even really work. That one of the most interesting things about Balanchine, there are a lot of interesting things, but there's some music that almost needs the dance. And not Rite of Spring and not really Petrushka, but you get Stravinsky post-1930. The dance helps. It helps you. Without the dance, there's something about it that— I mean, why do great orchestras not play all that music? Very rare to hear even a performance of Symphony in Three Movements, which is an exciting piece, dramatic, hardly ever. We play it here. When you see it with the dance, you know, it puts you right back into the, you know, you're there in World War II and the boats are floating around the Pacific and, you know, there's bombs flying and, you know, it just helps. It's, but it's not, somehow Stravinsky sometimes is not enough. It's like there's something suggested that maybe is not fully realized, but still it's great. It's It's great stuff. We do tons and tons. I can't tell you how many Stravinsky pieces.

But how many programs do you have at New York City Ballet?

Well, I mean, different seasons are different.

Right, right, right.

I mean, and believe it or not, we used to do seasons regularly with 50 ballets, 50 full-length ballets a season.

Oh my goodness.

I mean, it was insane. That also had to do with the fact that the subscribers wanted to see the great Balanchine ballets. They were just hungry to see them. And some of them honestly were sometimes like kind of thrown on. You know, they, you know, the dancer, our dancers are really fast. I've sat in the piano room in like Tivoli Concert Hall in Denmark. You know, someone gets injured, a principal dancer. Joaquin learned Jeu de cartes by Stravinsky, one of the most complicated Stravinsky scores. He learned this principal role in 5 hours and went and performed it that night, you know, and we just, we just hacked away at it all afternoon. And, you know, he did it. It was great. And that happens not infrequently. Too much repertoire, but, but tons and tons and tons of great stuff. I mean, you should see the music cabinet in the music room. I should bring you into the music room and just take out the scores. What's there would just— I mean, there's Weyburn scores, there's scores by all these great living composers. There's like 10 Philip Glass scores there. I just can't even tell you. There's, you know, John Adams was here for a while. We play like, I think we play 5 John Adams scores. I play often Hallelujah Junction for 2 pianos. You should play it if you like that sort of thing. It's really one of his best pieces. It's really fantastic fun and beautiful. We do Fearful Symmetries. We do Harmonie Lierre, huge pieces. And, you know, like, for example, we play Fearful Symmetries. We play it on the piano in the rehearsals.

Wow.

Yeah, I mean, I haven't played it in 15 years, but I, you know, play the whole, you know, 30 minutes of John Adams, you know, but it gets really hard.

Wow. But so many different repertoire that you got, you are using in the ballet.

That's fun. It's fun if you're, if you're that kind of—

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Position, you should definitely work here. You should definitely, and, and, and if you're, if you're someone who just likes music and is, has a lot of facility at The Piano Pod, and like, it's, you know, they need you. These days people get really like, piano is so hard, and people really get into their box. And I know that the new generations are expanding a lot. Even a lot of classical musicians improvise a little bit now.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

It's changed. I mean, it used to be when I was in Juilliard, it was like, holy, holy cow, you You know, it's unbelievable, you know.

Yeah.

You know, like you just, you know, every practice room, you know, people are trying to get those fingers moving. And yeah, it's good. You know, if that's what you want to do, great.

Right. And but I think we need to talk about how we're going to bring this industry forward, right? So then especially this post-pandemic era, and then you mentioned as pianists, we tend to be in the room practicing all the time and not communicating with others, not collaborating with others, but that sort of culture has to change. I know we have to practice on our own, but your job, your career is all about working with others, working with people, in the people, and that's something that I want to encourage new generations to experience and, you know, not just get stuck in the practice room all day, but experience the life, and that's how you experience music too.

I completely agree.

Hey, TPP friends and listeners! The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song is in its third season. Thanks to all of you for watching or listening to every episode since its launch in 2020. I started this show with a simple question I had in mind for quite some time, which is how can we as classical pianists and music educators to present the beautiful classical music tradition to the 21st century audience in a fun and contemporary and stylish and engaging way. It's been an incredible journey for the last 3 years, and I love what I do through this podcast, providing a platform for pianists and educators to reflect and discuss freely how we can keep the classical music industry thriving and relevant in this rapidly changing world. Now more than ever, I need your support so that I can continue my work by bringing you highly valuable content biweekly by interviewing groundbreakers in the industry. Your support will go directly to all the costs of The Piano Pod. You can make a one-time donation or monthly pledge by clicking the PayPal link in the show notes or going to The Piano Pod's website at thepianopod.com. As a thank you, you will receive The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. Fun logo sticker in the mail. So please support my show today and don't forget to subscribe and continue listening and tell your friends and colleagues about The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. Let's continue with the episode. So let's talk about your career and life outside of New York City Ballet. So you have this ongoing project with a painter, right? Her name is Karen Kapke. Kapke. Okay.

Well, years ago, I decided to focus my energies outside the ballet, my energies that had to do with me as a recitalist. I decided to focus it on late works, pieces that composers wrote toward the end of their lives. And I was inspired by a book called Late Style by Edward Said, who's a philosopher, was a philosopher at Columbia, and was very famous in that field. And he was also a friend of Daniel Barenboim. He was very involved with Israeli-Palestinian issues. And in fact, that was, I think, the basis of how they got together because Daniel Barenbaum was Israeli.

Mm-hmm.

And Said was Palestinian. And I think that he may have had to do with the founding of this East-West Orchestra that exists where they have Palestinians Israelis play together. They've done shows around the world. Anyway, he's a very interesting— and he wrote about late Beethoven and late Strauss and late Mozart. So my project is to learn and perform the last 3 Beethoven sonatas, the last 3 Schubert sonatas, and the Prokofiev War Sonatas. But I don't like the 6th sonata that that much.

Oh no.

So I'm not going to do it.

Okay.

And I don't think I'm going to do it. And so I substitute the Copland Piano Fantasy, which is a very late Copland work. It always meant a lot to me. So based on those pieces and surrounding them with lots of other pieces, late Ligeti etudes, late Arvo Pärt pieces, Philip Glass Études are fairly late. I play those. So that's the music part of the project. And then Karen created paintings as a result of our conversations about the music. And we've done 3 of these recitals/art exhibitions. You can see when you hear me playing the Copland Fantasy, you can see there are people sitting on the right and left of me, and their paintings behind them. And then in back of the piano is a projection of the painting that is the Copland Piano Fantasy painting. But the other paintings actually were from other parts of the recital and had been projected onto the wall— onto the screen, you know, when I played the other pieces. I played a Bach piece, and I played Opus 111, and even a Bill Evans transcription, transcription of jazz, jazz solo, and she painted that as well. So that's a perfect example of what we did. And then, so we did that in different places, you know, 3 recitals. They're very complicated to put together, especially as most musicians know when you do these things, you know, there's— my job is at New York City Ballet. It's very satisfying, but when I do these other things, there's no management, there's no stage manager to greet me. Everything is, you know, there's no one to make my programs.

Right.

You have to embrace it if you want to do those things. And I have. I get inspired by— maybe this is too heady, but there was a great visual artist, conceptual artist named Christo. He died recently. Maybe you know him. He made environmental art. I think they called it that, something like that. It's kind of a silly name, but he would— years ago, he made something called The Gates in Central Park. I think maybe before you were born. But I mean, my daughter was like 2 when he did it. And what he did is all the paths of Central Park, there were like these kind of curtains that fell over the path and on these little metal constructions, and they were orange, and it was very beautiful, and it was through the whole park. And he did this all over the place. He did it in the mountains of California, he did it in Japan, different things, not just curtains. And he was really great. And he said that the thing that interested him was how he had to work through the bureaucracy to get the permits. And it wasn't just the art, it was about the process of producing the art. So I like to think when I get depressed that I have to call too many people on the phone, when I do my own projects, I like to think idealistically that you're really in the world, you're finding out how things work, you know, you're relating to people, you're you're talking to secretaries, you're talking to, you know, heads of Opera America, you know, you've got to be personable. You want to work together with them and enter these other worlds that are a little more cut and dry. So it's a challenge, but it's an interesting challenge. And, you know, ultimately, if we can't operate in the world, you know, no matter how high our ideas It's very important to be able to operate in the world in a way that's consistent with your values, not to sell out, but as an act of connection and even being generous to yourself. You want to feel that you're connected and you have a meaningful way of interacting with colleagues, with your bosses, All these things are really important. And I do think that, and maybe I get this a little bit from Gil Kalish, because Gil Kalish was like super mensch, like super great guy. He was a musician, but everyone said, "Oh, Gil, he was like a regular guy." But he was very, you could tell that he paid a lot of attention to people. And that was like the main thing he taught us. You know, it's just, it's not just about you and your piano playing, you know, it's about, it's about more than that and, and your life. And that's a really important thing, no matter who you are, no matter where your gift placed you, you know.

Absolutely.

You want to have a good life, and generally it makes it easier to communicate something so precious if you have, you know, if you your environment is fulfilled in a way, full.

Absolutely. And then you're really living the beautiful life surrounded by people and then surrounded by beautiful art. And now, do you plan to do this project with the painter Karen, um, soon?

I think we might be done with the paintings actually. Uh, now I'm looking for, um, maybe you know somebody. I'm looking for actors, okay, to recite poetry. And probably I'll bring it all together. But I, I, you know, this is one of my things, is what I was talking about, about dance, is that I think when there's another medium that's set against music, it helps the audience. You know, I'm very frustrated because I like some very esoteric music like late Beethoven and stuff, but I want the audience to get it. I want them to enjoy it. I don't want them to think, Oh, that sounds really complicated. And so when they have a painting, or like in the Copland or in the Beethoven, they have this painting of what I think is a picture of a kind of feminist message, actually, of disturbance. You know, it's somehow, it helps the audience. They connect, oh, this is disturbing.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. It's not beautiful. It's beautiful in its disturbingness.

Right, right, right.

You know, and so they see a painting. In other art forms, people understand that. Sometimes people, they just want everything to be beautiful, you know.

Yeah, everything to be pretty, right? Pretty, pretty, pretty. Ah, yes.

Yeah, right.

We, we want to stay away from prettiness. We, we—

well, a little prettiness is okay, you know, like Fauré has a lot of prettiness.

That's right.

But, uh, on a high level.

But sometimes we need grotesque in beauty, right?

So absolutely, otherwise nothing means anything.

Right.

Otherwise there is no beauty.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Really. And that's what's great about collaborating with other art forms. So you get it. I mean, it's just— and it's just such a damn relief too, because it's like, you know, you just— you want to play these solo pieces, but, you know, you're not— most of us are not famous pianists, you know, who get to play them many, many times. You want to make it special for yourself. And you want to make it an event for your audience. And otherwise, it's just, it's not fun. It's just—

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you for really sharing your wisdom. So I want to promote New York City Ballet. And is there anything that you want to say about upcoming events or program?

Well, we're having the spring season coming up that starts in April, late April. The great thing about New York City Ballet now is we have gotten Alexei Ratmansky as our artist in residence. Alexei is, you know, along with Justin Peck, who's really amazing. He actually did the new West Side Story movie. He was the choreographer. But Alexei is arguably the greatest choreographer the greatest choreographer of our time, in my opinion, and a lot of people think that. He is so great. He is just so great. And he also choreographs really great music, really like Shostakovich concertos and things. And we are just so fortunate to have him coming here. You know, this is the company of Balanchine and Robbins, and Alexei is a are really— and, and Justin too, but Alexei is— I mean, getting him is just a wonderful thing for everyone. The dancers in particular, they, they love working with great choreographers like Justin and Alexei. They, they, they just love it. You know, it's like when you worked with your greatest piano teacher ever, you know, like Leon Fleischer, whoever you played for, you know, like that's That's the way they feel when they're in the studio with Alexei.

Wow. Wow.

And that's what you want them to have. You want that for them.

Wow.

So for those who are listening and watching, please visit www.nycballet.com to learn more about New York City Ballet and their programs and their new season coming up in late April. So this has been a really fun and inspiring conversation, Alan, and I, uh, unfortunately I have to let you go very soon because your rehearsal is coming up. But before I let you go, we have one more thing to do. It's called The Piano Pod rapid-fire questions. I didn't warn you, but this is part of the show where I get to ask fun questions to each guest. Now here's a little warning: as silly as these questions may sound, your answers may reveal who who you truly are.

So, oh yes, I'm pretty good at hiding that.

So, okay, good. So please answer them with the shortest responses as possible, and no— yes, no explanation needed. Okay.

Oh God.

All right, so question number 1: What is your comfort food?

The restaurant across the way from, uh, us, it's It's a kind of African-influenced restaurant in the new renovated David Geffen Mall. Anything they have there is my comfort food.

Great. I need to try. I need to try that. Now, how do you like your coffee?

With half and half and no sugar.

Sounds great.

Or in Starbucks, what do they say? A light splash. Light splash.

Cats or dogs?

Both.

What is your word or words to live by?

Freedom.

What is the most important quality you look for in other people?

Understanding.

Name 3 people who inspire you, living or dead.

Abraham Lincoln, Schubert, Ratmansky.

Sounds good. Name one piece in your current playlist.

Horace Silver's Song for My Father. It's a jazz.

So last question, fill in the blank, music is blank.

Fulfillment.

Yay, ding, ding, ding, you won. Thank you so much, Alan, for really joining here today.

Thank you, Yukimi. I really appreciate the opportunity to share these things with you, and I hope that everyone will find a good path for themselves, either as professional musicians or transforming that dream into something beautiful.

Well said. So this concludes the episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Alan Menken. Thank you once again, Alan, for joining my show today and sharing your stories and insights and expertise. And you can find more information about New York City Ballet. Please visit nycballet.com. And thank you to my wonderful audience and fans for tuning in. If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review it on whatever podcasting platform you use. If you are watching us on YouTube, remember to hit the thumbs up button and subscribe to my channel. You can also find my show on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. The links are listed in the show notes. I will see you for the next episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Alan. Bye everyone, and thank you, Alan.

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You're listening to a podcast right now. Driving, working out, walking the dog. If you're into podcasts, chances are you have something to say too. With RSS.com, starting your own is free and easy. Upload an episode and we distribute it to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, and hundreds more. Track your listeners, see where they're from, and start earning from ads like this, even with just 10 listeners a month. If you've been thinking about starting a podcast, this is your sign. Start free at RSS.com.