The Fullness of Being: Dr. Maria Thompson Corley on Art, Inclusion & Creative Legacy

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This episode is brought to you by Juneteenth LP, a dynamic ensemble and organization dedicated to celebrating Black history and artistry through music. Learn more about their powerful mission and upcoming events at juneteenthlp.org. Thank you, Juneteenth LP, for supporting this episode. Welcome back to The Piano Pod, everyone, and thank you so much for joining me today for this very, very special episode. Today marks the Season 5 finale, and I truly cannot think of a more powerful way to close this remarkable chapter of authenticity and joy than with the conversation you're about to hear. This entire year has been a deeply meaningful one, 20 episodes featuring 21 phenomenal guests from 6 countries across 3 continents. We have grown into a global community with over 2,900 YouTube subscribers, an increase of 300 from last season, and a significant rise in our podcast downloads across all audio platforms. We opened the season with the legendary Sarah Davis Buchner, and now we conclude with the extraordinary Maria Thompson Corley. What a journey it has been! And this year has brought even more milestones. We launched our new Substack with over 10% of subscribers now supporting us as VIPs. We were named one of 3 finalists for the 2025 Quill Podcast Awards in the Best Video Podcast category. None of this would have been possible without you, our listeners, supporters, and collaborators. I am so incredibly grateful to each one of you for being part of this journey. Amid a year of challenges in the arts world, including widespread cuts to public funding, this season reminded me that especially in uncertainty, we can still find beauty, connection, and a deep sense of sense of purpose in the work we do as artists. Now today, to commemorate Juneteenth, we are continuing our partnership with Juneteenth LP, and I am honored to welcome today's guest, Dr. Maria Thompson Corley, a powerhouse of creativity and compassion whose artistry defies categories. Maria is a concert pianist, composer, poet, novelist, educator, voice actor, and advocate for inclusion in the arts. But it's her honesty, clarity of purpose, and depth of care that leave the most lasting impression. In this episode, we talk about her bold reflections on inclusion and cultural ownership in classical music, her discography and original compositions ranging from solo piano to opera, How real-life experiences, the joys and the challenges of raising a family, have shaped her artistry and redefined her understanding of success. And her far-reaching vision of inclusion, not as a token representation but as a meaningful cultural shift rooted in authenticity, creativity, and care. This conversation is everything I hoped Season 5 would be. Brave, generous, and deeply human. Although this is our final episode of the season, I can't wait to return in September for Season 6 with the themes of creativity and connection. We already have an exciting guest lineup in the works and an incredible live event on October 4th at The New School's Stiefel Hall hosted in collaboration with Manus Prep. So please stay tuned for more. Until then, thank you for listening, thank you for supporting, and please enjoy this unforgettable Season 5 finale with the incomparable Dr. Maria Thompson Corley.

You are listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the future. And thriving in a complex, ever-evolving world. Welcome to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Maria Higareda. It's truly a joy and honor to have you with us today.

Well, I'm so grateful you asked me.

Of course, yes. Actually, your name was on the list, guest list, wish list, since season 1.

Wow.

Yes, and I just didn't get a chance to invite you, so I'm so grateful. And then anyway, in your multifaceted career as a pianist, composer, poet, Writer, I didn't realize this part of your life, like being a writer and poet. I never knew of that. And so I'm very excited. And an educator, and of course an advocate, has been really nothing short of inspiring. And I'm in awe of your artistry and also presence today. And then you are redefining what it means to be a classical musician of the 21st century, not only through your exceptional creative output, but through the depth, integrity, and heart you really put into everything you do. 5 years ago, which is 2020, so that's when I attended your workshop, online workshop that was hosted by The Piano Teachers Congress of New York.

Yes.

And then you did the presentation titled Widening the Mainstream, and you introduced us to so many wonderful Black composers, including your piece that you featured toward the end. You performed your piece. But yeah, so you opened up the workshop with a powerful reflection of, you know, with so much music already in the mainstream, why widen it? And the answer you said was very obvious, like, and you called it out that the long-standing assumption around what defines complexity, and who gets to be seen as talented, who gets to hold cultural ownership over the classical canon, you know, biases that still impact programming, pedagogy, school leadership, representation in higher positions throughout classical music, and so on, and till today. So in 5 years, how do you think we are doing in the classical industry?

I mean, I've seen some changes, definitely. For example, I have been asked by the Royal Conservatory of Canada to submit pieces for inclusion in their repertoire, and a couple of my pieces were accepted there. I was also recently contacted by the— I'm thinking of the— I'm blanking on the acronym or the letters that— but it was the Royal Conservatory equivalent in in London, England. And so I submitted a little piano piece for their 5th grade collection. So is it ABRSM? That's it, yes. I didn't want to get them wrong. I should have been thinking of what they— yes, Board of the Royal Schools of Music. Yes. So yes, I was asked to submit a piece, so that's good. And I think I know that they said that there were 9 people they approached. I don't know who the other ones were, But I see the effort at least continuing. And I don't know, you know, how long it will continue, but I think that it will be harder to put the genie back in the bottle, honestly, at this point. Even those who would like to put the genie back in the bottle, I think it's a little bit too late for that. And people are realizing that, yes, there are a wide range of people, whether they were women or whatever their ethnic background or racial background or whatever, however else you want to define it, who have created music that is worthy of hearing and worthy of performing and studying. And yeah, I feel like— now I saw something the other day, this is about women specifically, the— and I don't know what the list of major orchestras, you know, how they determined that, but I'm sure, you know, their criteria were very stringent— that performed music by women was still 7%. Or something like that. So, you know, obviously there's work to still be done, but I feel hopeful that this direction will continue in the artistic community and that there's not a big drive to turn back the clock in that regard. It doesn't seem like there is, really.

Yeah, I think we've come a long way since then, although, you know, the progress sometimes, it feels so slow, but you know, in retrospect, wow, you know, I think our mindset has shifted tremendously. I think it was like hearing the, for example, Black pieces by Black composers was so rare. Or should I, you know, the mindset was like, should I include, can I play this? But that's not the case anymore.

Yeah.

And What I find is that, and understandably, way past her death, Florence Price had a huge renaissance. And I feel like on one hand, her music is amazing. On the other hand, it sort of checks two boxes at once, and people don't always explore, you know, some further corners, so to speak. You know, it's sort of, like we're doing Florence Price, and I saw that at least to begin with, with some of the programming of concerts and orchestras and things like that. So I'm not against that at all. But, you know, I'm hoping that they'll continue to look at other people, and I think that they are. I think— I'm on the artistic committee of a music festival that's local. It's Mount Gretna, and so that's, you know, not too far from here. And I noticed that most of the programs of the classical performers includes, you know, it's not just the straight canon anymore. You know, there's always something that isn't part of that. So it's good.

Oh, wonderful. Yeah, it's so great to hear. But I know that you've been performing— excuse me— compositions by Black composers for even before, way before 2020. I know that, in fact, the albums, I think, first one was produced in 2005, the Soulscape, or 2006?

2006 was the release date for Soulscapes. I actually did several years before that a recording of pieces by Leslie Adams. Yes, that was my first solo piano recording. And I will say that when I was coming through school, well, I grew up in Western Canada, and obviously there was no focus on music by Black composers there. There was some focus on female composers in that, you know, Violet Archer was very well known there, Jean Coulthard, so they were well respected. And in fact, Violet Archer taught at University of Alberta where I got my undergraduate. But it was something that, you know, it just wasn't even in my mindset and it really could have been, I guess. I just, I don't know if it was a lack of representation that I didn't really see Black classical composers and so I didn't really think there were any. And I give credit to the people who challenge that obvious fallacy. I mean, why wouldn't there be any? But, you know, certainly not in Canada.

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Um, and I was focused on learning some of the great standard literature pieces that I'd heard and wanted to play and all that. So when I got to Juilliard, again, it wasn't a focus. And my teacher was wonderful, you know, George Schandor was, you know, that wasn't a focus of his either. Now, the Schomburg was right up the street. I could have gone and done some research, and I certainly played spirituals, and I started to become acquainted with a little bit of art song and I was a pianist for Opera Ebony, which was based in New York. And so they would do scenes from, for example, Dorothy Redmore wrote a piece about Frederick Douglass. And I performed different, you know, scenes from things as part of concerts with Opera Ebony. But again, for whatever reason, I didn't draw the line or I wasn't curious enough or whatever it was in my youthful ignorance that I just kind of wanted to learn what I wanted to learn and had always wanted to learn. And it wasn't until I went to Florida A&M as a professor that I was exposed to, first of all, Margaret Bonds and Troubled Water, which is, you know, one of her most famous pieces, and some pieces by Samuel Coleridge-Taylor. And, you know, then that sort of cracked the door open, and that was also the period that I met Darrell Taylor, who is the founder of the African American Art Song Alliance, and he introduced me to Leslie's music. He was a real champion of Leslie's music to begin with and then started championing all kinds of Black composers, and through him I met Leslie. And it was a performance that Darrell and I did that led Leslie to give me these new piano études that he was working on. He had decided he was going to write 26, for whatever reason that number just appealed to him. And so he asked if I'd be interested in getting them, and of course I was. So having been given these pieces that hadn't been performed, I was able to world premiere— 5 of them had been performed— I world premiered the first 12. And also through Darryl, I had met Louise Toppin, who is, at the time she was running Videmus Records, I mean, she stepped away from that now, but asked if she'd be interested in a recording of Leslie's, these 12 études. And that's how that came about. It was people I knew introduced me and gave me opportunities and I was able to capitalize on them, I guess.

I noticed when you mentioned about you realized that you didn't know much of a Black composers, that history of, you know, Black composers and so on, then you started more incorporating. I think that's what it's all about, right? Like a mindset, a shift of mindset that happens. So we are taught, oh, play, you know, the usual composers like Bach, Chopin. They are all great. And that's what the conservatories traditionally expect of you to perform all these wonderful greats in perfection. But then there are so many other composers that we missed out on, and we are not even taught or educated. And also we feel like, oh, we have to do all these mainstream greats in order for us to be considered, or even in order for us to feel classical musicians. Does this make sense?

Yeah, no, I understand what you mean. It's like if you're not covering that core, then, you know, are you really, you know, so I suppose you can play whatever and it can be extremely difficult or expressive or whatever else. But, you know, someone sitting somewhere is like, yes, but could they play Brahms or whatever, you know? Now I think it, again, it's important to cover those composers and I don't think that we were trying to get rid of them. It's just, I mean, there are pieces that have been played a gazillion times for good reason, you know, there's a reason why they're so famous. And I think that it's more of a challenge of expression and exploration if you have a piece of music that doesn't have like 200 YouTube videos from which, especially as a student or even as, you know, a professional pianist, that you have to create, you know, you really have to decide what you want to bring with it. You are in conversation with the score and you are not like relying on, okay, well, I like how Horowitz did this and I like how Rubinstein did this and, you know, or whoever else. Yeah, so I think it demands more of you as a musician to approach something that doesn't have this long track record, really.

You mentioned that about your recording of Leslie Adams' etchings, and I really enjoy them so much. What an incredible series of etchings. And then we're going to circle back, but before, I kind of want to know your artistry today. So I usually start up a conversation with, you know, if you were to capture the essence of your artistry, mission, and passion in just a few sentences, how would you define who you are as an artist today?

So Well, I believe that everything that I do, the through line is storytelling. So whether I'm using words or whether I'm using music, whether I'm creating the music or interpreting the music, I believe that we should be taking on a journey and there should be that sense of, you know, I mean, even abstract storytelling, even if I don't have a specific program in mind that I've created for myself, we should be experiencing a mood or a series of moods or something that is going to speak to us, the listener. And obviously, it has to speak to me before I can try to translate that to the listener. So yeah, I think that that is definitely the through line is just I want to express ideas or tell a story in some way.

Wow, yeah, I mean, makes sense because you have such a gift of storytelling and writing, and which we're going to explore a little bit more later. But now also, we briefly spoke on the phone a few weeks ago and to prepare for this conversation, and you share that motherhood is as important and a central part of who you are, not just as being a mom, but also being a person and as an artist, and you wanted to bring that into our discussion today. So how has being a mother of two artistic children— because I think your daughter is a wonderful singer, and then your son, who is also the neurodivergent spectrum, on the spectrum, and also he has a wonder— he's a wonderful painter.

Yeah.

Oh my goodness, so talented.

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I don't know why I'm saying thank you because I didn't do anything, but Yeah, I have found— now, I will say that I wasn't somebody who, you know, grew up as a little girl saying, oh, I can't wait till I can be a mom. I'm just, you know, I was really more focused on being a pianist. And I believed that, and I know everybody has to make a definite choice. If you have children, some people choose to like walk away from whatever their career was. I felt like having had this passion for being a musician since I was very young, that I didn't want to like amputate part of myself, which is what it would've felt like, you know, when I had children. However, I felt like it was a huge responsibility if you decide that you're gonna bring people into the world, that they didn't ask for that in my estimation. So, you know, you have to take that very seriously. So I've tried to find a balance between doing the things that I really feel are core to me or have helped me maintain even some semblance of sanity, and empowering and encouraging my children. And because my son is on the autism spectrum, I kind of grateful. Well, I'm very grateful that I have been able to do something that allows me to work from home so much, because so much of what I do is practicing. I teach in my house, I compose in my house, and it's not like I never leave my house, but I have more flexibility because of that. And he is a very social person, so it's good that, you know, he has opportunities to go out and be out without me. So I'm grateful that he was born in a time that— and in Pennsylvania, the services for people on the spectrum are actually rather good. And so, yeah, so, so I feel grateful for, for where we are right now, and the timing in that people were doing more for people on the autism spectrum. But it certainly informs everything I do. So I'm not— I don't know if I would have enjoyed when I was younger traveling all the time, if I had had that opportunity. In the end, it wasn't something that happened. Although I have a couple of trips, I've had more trips lately, which is shocking to me. But, you know, I did some of that. But, you know, once he was born, I certainly wouldn't have been, you know, okay, can you go here or there for a week? And it was not Yeah, it was sort of off the table. Also, because my ex and I— well, he's my ex. So, you know, when I was— got divorced, and I had really custody of my children, that changed the equation again. So perhaps if that had worked out, I might have done more traveling. But it didn't. And so, you know, but I have, I have no regrets in that regard. I feel like my musical life has been so very rich. And I know that, you know, for the people who do travel a lot, there's a sense of kind of rootlessness in the sense— like I was talking to a really well-known singer the other day, and, you know, either I— I can't remember who asked her, well, where are you living right now? And she said, nowhere. And so I don't know that I would have ever been on that level, honestly. But Yeah, that's not something that I think I aspire to anyway. So these are things that, you know, when I was a child, I really dreamed of, like, traveling all over the world and, you know, that sort of lifestyle. And I don't know that it suits me to do more than, you know, a few trips a year, or, you know, I don't know that I would really have thrived that way. It's hard to say. But I don't, you know, you can't rewrite the history. And I'm grateful for all of the things that I have. I'm grateful for him. I'm grateful for my daughter who's currently in Los Angeles and I miss her a lot. And so for my particular path, I think the combination of things has been, you know, something wonderful.

Yeah, wonderful and complicated too.

And yes, yeah, yeah, lots of balls in the air. You know, right?

But it's not something that, as you said, uh, you didn't expect or you didn't dream of. And, you know, you thought of one thing and then the life just, uh, throw—

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A lot of different curveballs, and it did, but I think we all get curveballs though. I mean, whatever our choices, and I, I'm not one of these people who thinks everybody needs to have children to feel like a fully formed human, you know. I don't believe that at all. So my particular path, but that's—

but maybe because you were sort of forced to be rooted in, I guess, you know, one spot or one town, then maybe that's— maybe do you think that's— that contributed to your creativity?

Like, you—

maybe you were more a creative, creative person, but, you know, being creative— because creative person, people are free in our mind, their minds, which means somehow physically Don't we have to be rooted somewhere rather than—

I don't know.

Um, yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I mean, you have to have— you have to find time to do these creative things, and it's harder. I mean, I used to write things or, um, do arrangements on the— on an airplane, you know. Um, I don't know that I'm so motivated to do that now. So I think that for where I am now, it's good that I have, you know, I can get up and be in, in one place, and I may have a number of things that I don't have to do when I leave town that are welcome things that I, you know, I'm like, oh yeah, I don't have to wash the dishes, you know, all these sorts of things. But for me personally, I think finding the time to do things and not having to think about 'Okay, I have to be here, you know, I'm traveling to there.' And I mean, I know of composers who go on retreats, or writers, or whoever, and they go on a retreat for a couple of days. And that's something that maybe I would be more able to do if I weren't still a caregiver. But on the other hand, you know, it hasn't stopped me from doing what I do. And so, yeah, I think, I think, I think we can be creative if we're truly creative, in whatever the circumstances, we just figure it out.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well, thanks for really opening up and telling me honestly about this. And, but, um, so lately, you know, I tend to save these questions a little later in the conversation, but I think it's important that we begin with this. So I kind of want to know your beginning. So you were born in Jamaica. Raised in Canada and eventually moved your way to New York City to attend Juilliard and the legendary George Sandor. Am I pronouncing—

I mean, I think it's Shandor. I tried to pronounce his first name in the Hungarian way and I never got it right. The G-Y eluded me. So he said, you can call me George. And I was like, well, that's not your name really. But it was like, and I'm sure that's horrifying to anybody who has who speaks that language. But yes, Mr. Shandor, I think Shandor is correct.

He's legendary. I'm not pronouncing it right, that's all. So can you tell us a bit about your upbringing? What kind of environment nurtured your creativity? Sounds like you already had this innate, not just ability or gift of music, but also the desire.

Yes. Well, my grandmother actually attended the New England Conservatory as a piano major. My, on my mother's side. So that was quite something, uh, back in the day. I mean, she wasn't there when, um, I know Florence Price was there. She wasn't there with Florence Price, but she, um, so that aspect in classical music was on that side. Now, my grandmother had 4 children, and I think after this third one, she gave birth to the third child, she stopped practicing. My mother is the oldest, and she remembers when she played and She remembers, you know, the performances. She lived in Bermuda, and so, you know, my grandmother and my mother, but, you know, very much my grandmother always wanted me to keep playing. That was very strong. My grandmother taught piano for many years, and, you know, but she didn't really— I never heard her play, and unfortunately there are no recordings of her playing. I wish, I wish I'd been able to hear her. So my mother got some lessons. She was the one who did the most with piano. And the thing was, my grandmother taught, but her children got sort of the last slots. And my mother was the only one who was really, really very interested in it. So my mother was my first piano teacher. And she taught all— I had 4, there were 4 kids in my family, and we all had to take piano lessons. And but I really wanted to, my, my brother was the oldest, and he was taking lessons. And I guess from the time I was 2, I was asking for lessons. Lessons. And yeah, I had to wait till I was 4. So, and then soon after that, you know, my mom said she decided to look for somebody else to teach me. I think I was— I should know this, she knows this— I was 6 or I was 8, I can't remember which. But anyway, I was still pretty young when I started taking lessons outside of the home. And all my sisters all continued, and we all took lessons on— I ended up taking violin for a while because I fell in love with the violin. And, you know, but it was always my second instrument. I mean, I started playing violin, I think it was about 10, and I played until I was about 20-ish, 21. Anyway, so my dad, from my dad's side, he was not someone who was into classical music when he was young and, you know, got exposed to it through my mom. And then he became, you know, He drove us to all the lessons and he listened to a lot of different kinds of music. Like the CBC is the equivalent of public, is the public radio station there. And driving to and fro, he'd listen to all kinds of things like, you know, Gaelic ballads and, you know, they just had all kinds of music. But he also was very much into reggae and jazz. He loved the classic jazz singers like, you know, Sarah Vaughan, I think was his favorite. But there were a lot of of those ladies who he really appreciated. And Nat King Cole, we listened to his piano playing as well. So, and they also listened to not huge amounts of gospel, but Mahalia Jackson was one, and Roland Hayes. We listened to the spirituals. So there was a wide range of musical styles played in my house. And, you know, in Canada, you take history, music history exams as you take your piano exams and, you know, ear training. So it's all a system of things. So, yeah, my— so my beginning, I was very much exposed to all these things. And when I graduated from high school, I was about to graduate from high school, I was sort of thinking, well, maybe I should go into computer programming because that seems to be a more practical thing to do or whatever. But then I knew that that wasn't really what I wanted to do. And so I just decided that, you know, and I had my parents' support, that I was just going to go for it and go into music. So it was a place where, I mean, there was a lot of creativity in my house. There was also, every summer we were on the swim team and we didn't really practice the piano much during the summer. We didn't practice anything very much for at least 2 months and just like played outside and just did all kinds of, you know, kid things. I mean, it was a time when you just ride your bike and then no one had a cell phone and, you know, you knew to come home at a reasonable hour. But the swim club was a lot of fun. We would swim twice a day for an hour each. And So it wasn't like anybody was trying to be like, oh, you know, force you into doing it. Now, my mom did demand that we practice at least to some extent, but it wasn't, okay, you have to practice for 3 hours a day or any particular prescribed amount. It was, you know, as our teachers would, if the teacher said that you weren't practicing enough or, you know, there were certain things then we had to do more. But I got tired of being told, okay, go practice your music. And it wasn't that I didn't love it. I did love it. But it was sort of like, there were so many other things my brain was doing. So I think when I was about 12, maybe, or 12, 13, I was like, okay, no one is ever going to tell me to practice my music again. I don't want to hear it. And I just took it on and I became more serious. So I really A lot of things came easily to me as a little kid, you know, I had good natural facility and tended to be musical and some of the attention to the details of things, you know, like really making sure that this technical passage was really worked out, you know, a lot of times it would work. And I think I got more into that when I was about, you know, on the cusp of adolescence and really made a commitment And then when I was 17, I was in college, I was driving to college, and I had a major car accident, and I had a concussion. And before that, I never had any performance anxiety. It was just like, yeah, it'll be fine, you know. But, but when I— and, you know, I would get into it. I mean, I loved, I loved performing. I loved the music. And I didn't stop loving the music, but I had this concussion. And then suddenly, every once in a while, I'd have a small memory lapse. And that was when my performance anxiety, you know, I started developing performance anxiety for obvious reasons. But I always loved being a musician too much to just, you know, say, oh, well, this is a problem, and I'm not going to do it anymore. So I guess that really confirmed that music was really part of my core in every way.

So, and then where does this all writing and so many other ways of creativity come from? The desire?

I always wrote too, like when I was a kid, I— and, you know, whether it was in school or there's some novels that probably will never see the light of day that may have been lost forever, and that might not be a bad thing, that I wrote, you know, but I don't know, it was just like I always had a lot of ideas. And I realized over the course of time of people asking me about being a composer that I wrote little pieces when I was a kid too. I just, I mean, like there was a collection of 4 little piano pieces called Naughty Colegypsies and spelled like naughty, like a little kid being naughty, tells of a kindergarten class. That I wrote when I was like 13 or 14. And I did some light revisions later on when I was really thinking of myself as a composer. And I had a teacher, her name was Lydia Pals, who said, you know, the first piece, write in the style of such and such a person. And that's how they— she, and I think a lot of people teach you to compose things. But my brother was a filmmaker, even as a kid, he was very much into writing as well. He wrote, you know, like screenplays and wrote other things. And so he would organize us to do movies, like the neighborhood kids, and we'd shoot Super 8 movies. And so he asked me to be like the score, film score, you know. So when I think of it, I actually was making up things from way back when. I just didn't— it didn't register as something that I did, you know. When I was writing songs, I tried to write like pop songs when I was a teenager too, and yet it didn't. And somehow, you know, and those are— that's songwriting, but I didn't think of myself as composing. And I don't know if it was because I didn't know of women or Black women who were composers, and so just the legitimacy of what I was doing was something that was outside of, you know, what— I didn't really— it doesn't make sense looking back at it now that I didn't think I was composing.

But, you know, it sounds like almost like it's like an immediate creative problem solution, like you learn as a kid, you know, like your brother asks you to, oh, just compose something.

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And you're like, okay, you know, just Yeah, well, I mean, I think it was because I was improvising and I played by ear. You know, I had perfect pitch and I would like play things by ear all the time. And I think, you know, add things to them. So yeah, but it was, it was a vote of confidence on his part, I guess. It wasn't like he was going to commission someone to do these things. So if anyone's gonna do it, it was gonna be me, I suppose.

Yeah. Wow. But, you know, as early that your memory from that childhood is and how you are as a composer today, it's incredible, you know, the path that you took. And because I understand that you are— you didn't study composition at Juilliard, right? You studied— yeah, Piano Performance.

But, you know, I took this one class that the only other people in it were composers. And I think there was maybe a flutist, but I believe I could be wrong. I think she dropped out. And the reason I took the class was because it was every other week and it was in the morning, 3 hours every other week with Stephen Albert. And I thought, okay, well, I'll be able to sleep in every other week. So it was not— it wasn't— but it was process and inevitability in music, which I think— I mean, and the point was that some choices became inevitable in the construction of a piece, which I never really understood. And I, in the sense of inevitable, like, you know, so I had a problem with the premise of the class. But anyway, I mean, I felt like I was swimming most of the time because I didn't know if I was getting on with what he was about. But I, you know, this is the only B+ that I was like, oh, wow, I got a B+. But as I think of it, you know, I guess I was a composer in that class too, and it was more like analyzing compositions and trying to decide why the choice that the composer made was the inevitable choice. Just really, you know, philosophical to me stuff. But yeah, but I never studied composition with him. Now, since I've become a composer, I've had people like Lori Laitman and Juliana Hall and Jeffrey Ryan is a Canadian, really renowned Canadian composer, and Evan Mack. I did a— it was like an— not an internship, what am I saying— like a mentorship program that the National Association of Teachers of Singing came up with shortly after George Floyd was murdered. And they were trying to enable— it started off with Black composers as giving us a platform and also mentors who could look at our compositions and give us, you know, some guidance. So I would say that certainly that was, you know, a limited, not like, you know, collegiate study, but it was something. And, you know, the mentorship that I had from Geoffrey Ryan through the Canadian Artsong Project, they commissioned me to write a piece and then they had, you know, asked him if he would mentor me through that process because I hate to say it, George Floyd's murder caused a lot of organizations to say, "Hmm, maybe we should take another look at how we're representing Black composers." And I think, obviously, everybody, each group that is not as represented as they should be, you know, deserves that sort of attention. But that was the focus right then. And so as a result, I was able to get a little bit more instruction. I had already written some songs. And I'm trying to think the timeline. No, I wrote the piano pieces after that. Now, the pandemic was actually pretty good for me in a creative sense. You know, because I— yeah, so I had more time. And one of the compositions that I was commissioned to write— and, you know, YouTube has been good to me too, I have to say, because I just started posting things on YouTube and somebody found me and wanted me to write a song cycle for a young lady named Taylor Jasmine. I think she goes by Jasmine.

White.

And so it was commissioned by a university, Loyola University. And that was like, helped me, got me through, you know, financially at the, towards the beginning of the pandemic that she found me and commissioned these pieces from me. And then, yeah, it was just like, I really felt, wow, God is looking after me. Because, I mean, like a lot of us were sort of like, oh, what do we do now? You know, and then you figure it out that you can teach online and are you wearing a mask and all these sorts of things that we had to figure out. But I would say that, I mean, I composed one of the more popular of my cycles, Grasping Water, before the pandemic, but sort of that as a springboard to other things after.

You know, to be honest, I didn't realize this composition thing came pretty recently. So 2020 is the time that you were able to devote yourself and create a part of your life. Like me too, I started the show in 2020, so it was like a blessing, you know, in disguise. You know, it was difficult, but then I was able to really tap into who I am and what I want in my life. Right?

Yeah.

But I didn't realize your composition. I mean, you've done composing before, but then Yes, I did more arranging.

And so, you know, going back into the '90s, I did, you know, choral arrangements. I was a church musician. I still am a church musician. And so I would sometimes do choral arrangements for that. And then in— when, you know, my ex and I met at Juilliard and he asked me, based on hearing a choral arrangement that I had done, if I would do some arrangements of spirituals for his master's recital. And so I did that. And then Darryl again, Darryl Taylor, I shared with him "Steal Away," which is one of the ones that I did for Chris, Chris Corley is his name. And so years later, he looked at it, like he was handwritten, he got into a stack somewhere. And then he was doing a recording of spirituals, and he found it and he recorded it. But then he also said there was a program, a not a program, but I don't know what you call it. It's sort of like a call for people to write music to words by Countee Cullen. Countee Cullen's music was in public— or poetry was in public domain. And so it was for the African American Art Song Alliance conference that he wanted to have this commissioning project, but we weren't getting paid, but, you know, just to write songs. And so he invited me to participate, and I was like, well, I don't know if I can write. Songs. I know I can arrange things. And he said, oh no, I think you could, I think you could write. And again, this is me who had written these little things for my brother, and I had written these popular songs— or they weren't popular because they never got released— but, you know, songs that I thought were on that vein. And I didn't have trouble writing melodies, so I don't know, it just didn't click. Like, I just didn't think of it. Maybe it was the concussion, and I just, you know, um, but anyway, um, And 2015, so this song, um, Simon the Cyrenean Speaks, um, Darrell recorded it— I'm not recorded it, but he used it as, um, the opening piece in a series of recitals he was doing in Spain and places in the States. And he told me he was doing this, and I was like, oh wow, I guess it was, you know, I guess that was good, you know. I, I liked it, but then I had this sort of inferiority complex about, you know, is this any good. And some of the songs, like, I wrote 3 songs and I think the other 2 weren't as good. I know they weren't as good. But just the idea of going forward and having that encouragement of, no, you can do this, and no, this is legitimate. And, you know, so for me to think of myself as a composer even has taken several years and a lot of positive reactions. And now you know, I always thought, okay, I like this. I didn't feel like I needed someone else's permission for me to like it. But as to whether or not somebody else would like it, and now I'm sort of at the point that I'm not so much— I mean, it wasn't like I was writing them to say, well, I think people will like this or like that. It was just, especially if they're words, well, this is how I think these words need to be set. And that would be it. Like, I think this needs to sound this way. And I would go with that. Or sometimes— you know, I would consciously say, you know, I've been writing some things that are kind of slow, I think I'm going to write something that's more upbeat or something, you know. So, but the mindset shift again, you know, it took a little while. And it's like, do I legitimately call myself, you know, a writer? And someone— I was saying, well, I don't, I'm not really a writer, even though I was publishing, you know, things were getting published in Broad Street Review. I started looking for freelance things. It was really trying to find, well, how can I make a little more money? So, um, you know, they paid a little bit, and so I started doing things with Broad Street Review. And someone said, you know, well, you, you're getting paid to write, so you're a writer. And to me, I go even further. I mean, even if you're not getting paid to write, you're a writer if you write, you know. It doesn't matter. You, you write, and therefore you are a writer. And whether— and I think This is sort of like the artist's way, which was something— I can't remember who introduced me to that, but the idea is that creating art is something that if you create it, you are a creator. Now, what everybody else thinks of it is not necessarily the point. And if it's not good, then you have to be willing and able to go from not good to better. And that's— how do you do that? By continuing to create. So, you know, will you get paid to do it? Maybe not. You know, and that— for that, I'm eternally grateful. And that was not something that I was expecting, you know. But I still think that that spirit of, I think I want to do this because this is something that speaks to me and I'd like to do, like your podcast. I mean, that spirit is something that I think, you know, everybody, everybody should dip into a little bit, whether it's just you create a new recipe, say you're not musical at all, but you create a new recipe. Or let's say that you like to garden, I'm not a gardener, but you like to garden and then you create a beautiful arrangement in your yard. You know, I think creativity is open to everybody.

And I think we're all better off for, for being creative in some way, especially after brutal 18 years of really difficult training, classical training we have, you know.

Yes. And the thing is, like, you know, as a teacher, I try not to— I mean, I will guide you, obviously, but I mean, I try not to focus on, well, there's a right way to play something. I mean, there are parameters that are established by the time period that something comes from. So I'm not going to say, no, play that Bach like Rachmaninoff, it's all good, you know, but on the other hand, I think that, you know, I may very strongly feel that, okay, this is the way that I want something to sound because I'm very connected to this piece and I have a very definite idea of how I play it. But I, and I'll always preface that if I, you know, teach a piece like that, it's like, okay, I have very strong opinions about this piece, but, you know, so this is how I do it, but I would like you to, you know, explore it yourself. And in fact, those are the pieces that I would demonstrate less than other things that I might, you know, be trying to show, okay, phrasing or something like that, because I want to leave some freedom. So, but you know, it's true. I mean, and I wasn't someone who did a lot of competition, but I think that that is also where you, you know, people, and maybe it's less that way. I'm not really up on, on what the parameters are as far as having a certain way that you play something and that's the way that it's supposed to go. And at least that's what Miss—

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Jashonder told me back in the day, he said, you know, to do well in competitions, you have to have, first of all, like a hide of just steel in the sense of how much you feel someone else's assessment of you affects your own self-worth. Because, you know, he was just saying, I mean, you can have people on the jury, and this makes sense. These people on the jury think this, a whole set of different people think that. And if you do something too creatively, then it's probably not going to win. And he said, you know, I'm paraphrasing, it's a similar example that, you know, he's been on a jury where somebody reminded them of some jurors' ex-wife or something, you know, something along those lines, that they have some reason why they're, you know, against somebody that maybe has nothing to do with what they actually did. You know, and because they're all humans, right? They're all humans. So I don't know if the being kind of, you know, down the line with interpretation is still a thing. And for him, he said also, I mean, you really have to be able to play these pieces in your sleep. And so that means that you have to just keep working on the same pieces for, you know, long enough that you play them in your sleep, as opposed to learning other things that, you know, maybe would allow you to explore more repertoire. And, you know, and I was the kind of person who, like, if I got past the first round, then I would get freaked out by the expectation, my expectation of like, oh my God, now it's serious, as opposed to, you know, first round is like, I'm playing these pieces, I'm just playing these pieces. And, you know, so I didn't have the mindset to do that sort of thing very well.

Hello, I'm Dr. Nana Ogboh, pianist and founder of Juneteenth LP, a Harlem-based collective of Black classical of beautifully trained musicians dedicated to celebrating the music of the African diaspora through bold, genre-defying performances that redefine what classical music can be and who it's for. At Juneteenth LP, we believe in access, outreach, and community building through music. Whether we're performing a rarely heard music— piece of music by a Black composer, or reimagining soul and gospel classics, or creating immersive education modules for schools, we're always expanding and growing audiences. When we play, we invite listeners into a richer, more inclusive musical world. This year marks a huge milestone for us: 10 years of our Juneteenth celebration at Joe's Pub. What started as a single night of music and liberation has blossomed into a full week of concert and events thanks to support from the Lower Manhattan Cultural Council, the Aaron Copland Fund, and Chamber Music America. We are thrilled to invite you to Juneteenth Festival Week 2025, a week of concerts and conversations across New York City. We kick things off with Portrait of an Artist event at Reservoir Studios in Midtown Manhattan and continue on with a noonday concert at Interchurch Center, followed by date night performances at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Finally, on Juneteenth at 6:30 PM, June 19th, join us for our 10th annual Juneteenth Celebration concert at Joe's Pub. It's our signature event where genre-defying performing Powerful storytelling and a spirit of joy come together in one unforgettable night. We're also so excited to be sponsoring the June episodes of Yukimi Song's The Piano Pod podcast, wrapping up season 5. Pianists Dr. Leah Claiborne and Dr. Maria Thompson Corley are incredible artists and educators with truly fascinating lives, and these interviews promise to be absolutely captivating. At Juneteenth LP, we center representation education, cultural connection, and musical excellence. Whether through performances, education, archival work, our goal is simple: to make classical music more inclusive and more expansive. We're reimagining what classical music can be by honoring its past, transforming its present, and opening doors for the future. Please join us on the 19th at Jones Hall for a wonderful, wonderful concert. We know you'll enjoy it.

Let's talk about your composition, your recordings. And I really, when I first heard your original, was that 2020 workshop where you played "Lucid Dreaming"? Oh yeah. Beautiful piece. And then I also, I know that in the album called "Soulscape," two. Oh yes, you're not only the lucid dreaming but also Willful Ignorance. Yes, I like the title, and I almost kind of know what it means, but so can you introduce us to your— those two original piano solo pieces?

Yes, well, I'll say Blissful Ignorance went along with Willful Ignorance too. And the Blissful Ignorance is a very short piece about you know, literally blissful ignorance, like you're just going along and pretending things aren't happening. Um, and I mean, to me, the willful ignorance was, um, more, um, it was related to kind of anti-woke things in the sense of, you know, I incorporate, um, uh, Go Down Moses in it. And, uh, so it, it's just sort of, to me, the bluster around you know, everything is okay and people are complaining about something that doesn't exist. And so Godam Moses keeps trying to, to break through and then gets a little bit longer moment towards the end, and then it's just shouted down again by this, you know, like really bombastic ending. So, um, again, that piece was informed by I can't remember if it was exactly George Floyd, but there were a raft, a raft of those incidents around that time. So that's what that piece was about.

But I want to actually perform this.

Oh, sure, feel free.

Yes, I think you can get the score from What's the website?

Um, Sheet Music Plot.

That's right. Yeah, I saw it. Yes, I would love to purchase and then perform both of them, but I, I really like the title Willful Ignorance. I think really resonates with me as I, I'm also grew up in a place where I was in a minority community, um, and you know, the voices are silenced, especially my grandparents' generation. You know, being silenced is It's part of those, you know, a form of abuse in many ways.

Oh, sure, absolutely.

Yeah, yes.

So you really can see that, and that affects generations to come. And I witnessed, I experienced myself too. So the Willful Ignorance, the title just really spoke to me. In the album also, you play Mother's Love by Emahoy. Yes. Gebru, is that how you pronounce? She's a— she was an Ethiopian Ethiopian, right?

Yeah, yeah. She died very recently, relatively, considering she was 100, or I think— I don't know if she made it to 100, but she was almost there. Yeah. And such an interesting story, um, that I had trouble actually finding music by African women. And I was told Rebecca Omordia, she runs the African Concert Series London, um, said that the time that I asked her anyway, weren't a lot of them who were breaking through. So a little patriarchal thing, I guess, but, um, or at least in piano. But she, uh, started off wanting to be a concert pianist, and she studied violin, and, and then her family was quite well-to-do. And then when Mussolini came in, then, you know, they were some of the people that were targeted. And anyway, she got in, I think she got in to the Royal Conservatory, and then she didn't go. And so we're— there were some different accounts. I know that she ended up becoming a nun, and I'm not sure if she decided to become a nun instead of making— becoming a pianist, but she did both and had quite a following, I've discovered, and there's the whole society dedicated to her. And she used money that she made to help children who were disadvantaged to have music lessons. And if you buy any of her scores, that's part of what the money is for. So yeah, she lived a long life. There was a BBC special called The Honky Tonk Nun, which is a really kind of bizarre thing because her music sounds nothing like honky tonk. It's very idiosyncratic. And in fact, some of it has been used in— there was a movie called Passing, and one of her pieces was sort of the theme music or the recurring piece. I can't remember the name of it, but, you know, in that. And after I recorded, I heard there was a Walmart commercial with Mother's Love in it. It wasn't me performing. I had to listen to it a few times. I was like, okay, I don't recall anybody getting permission or getting any royalties for this, but apparently it wasn't. I listened to it a number of times and it's like, no, that's not me. I guess it maybe it was her original recording of it. But yeah, so she had Walmart. Walmart. I was quite surprised. I was like, oh my goodness. Somebody alerted me to that and said, is that you? And I was like, I hope not, because no one has gotten my permission to use my recording. But anyway, yeah, just a really interesting story, really interesting journey that she had.

Yeah, and also some of— so there are so many wonderful pieces in there, but I— Nkeru Okoye? Yes, you performed her Dusk and Drums.

Yes, Drums Calling.

Yes, Drums Calling. Yes, yes.

Sorry.

Yeah, they're wonderful pieces.

She's a wonderful composer.

And then of course we talked about your first one, Soulscapes, which are including, you know, many other Black composers, Viola Kinney, Valerie Capers. Are they all female composers?

Yes, all female composers. After I, you know, recorded Leslie's— the first etudes, somebody else recorded— Thomas Otten recorded the other ones. And I sort of decided I wanted to turn my attention to Black women composers and focus a little bit more on Black women, not exclusively, but certainly for the— those last two recordings, I feel like the first one was focused on the United States and with the Price Sonata and the Capers pieces, and then I wanted to open it up and look at the diaspora. So a number of the women are based in the UK but have West Indian roots, like Eleanor Alberga and Erland Wallen, and Shirley Thompson— no relation, I don't think. I don't think. But yeah, I wanted to make sure that I wasn't just focused on the United States.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I also like, love the piece by Dorothy Rudd Moore.

Yes.

A Little Whimsy.

Oh yes, yeah, that's a fun one. Yeah, well, she had the reputation of writing pieces that were very serious. And so that was deliberately written to show that she could do something lighthearted.

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For listeners out there, they can purchase CDs from your website, or how can they listen to your recordings?

Actually, I think they're both, like, I do have Soulscapes 2 in stock if they want to call me, get in touch with me directly from my website. That one's also available on Amazon. The first one, Soulscapes 1, is available on the website, Albany, the Albany website. I think they're now owned by Parma Navona. I think they bought them out. So, but anyway, I haven't checked to see if they've combined everything into one website. But yeah, that was from Albany.

Now, do you intend to compose more piano pieces?

I'm actually thinking about, like, just in the preliminary stages of thinking about an idea that was given to me by Andrea Clearfield, who is a wonderful composer. And she was saying, you know, she became aware of Malcolm's artwork and said, have you ever thought of composing pieces based on some of his artwork? And she has this in Philadelphia. It's called Zalon because it was a Zoom salon, and it was a live salon. And after the pandemic, it's a hybrid salon, so anybody in the world, and sometimes people from other places in the world, participate in it. And so she said, you know, when you have a couple of pieces, then please bring them to the salon, and with the artwork that they are inspired by. And I thought, well, that's a great idea because it, you know, exposure for my son's art and also be fun to write just some little pieces along those lines. So I'm kind of focusing on other things right now. I scribbled down a couple like little motives for a couple of things, and I will probably continue to do that. So I thought, if I— I don't know how many I'm going to end up with, but if I end up with something that's like 15, even 15 minutes long, then I might try to pair them with, you know, Mazursky pictures, which I did way back in the day, which I, I, I was thinking, oh, a few years ago before she suggested this, I was like, you know, I think I want to take one more run of that before I decide I'm too old to go through that trouble. And then, you know, there's not been a reason to follow through with that. But if I do, then, you know, that would be my hour-long, you know, I'm not trying to add anything more than that. But yeah, I'm hoping, hoping that I can pull that off sometime relatively near. I mean, I have an opera that I'm writing for, um, the Cincinnati Opera about John Lewis.

And, uh, that boy from Troy, right?

Well, the title ended up being Good Trouble: The Boy from Troy. They wanted to incorporate good trouble, uh, into it since that's something that people really associate with him. So, um, the piano vocal workshop is taking place in October, and then I will be back to working on that. And there's a— yeah, so if, you know, between the performances I'm doing this summer and whatever else, little projects and things that are happening in my life, I'm hoping I can at least get a good start on those before the end of the year.

And yeah, this opera sounds amazing. I know this is not the first time you wrote opera because you wrote The Sky Where You Are mini opera too. But did you even imagine yourself like writing an opera when you are a young student?

No, not at all.

This is incredible.

Well, um, I just have a tendency to, you know, people give me a challenge and a lot of times I'll just give it a try, you know. I mean, those sorts of challenges, you know, someone's like, oh, I'd love for you to skydive, and I'm like, Maybe not. But that kind of tightrope, I'm willing to walk the tightrope, musical tightrope, a lot of the time. But so, "The Sky Where You Are" came out of some art songs that, again, it was pandemic era, and there was a video thing of art songs, and I had performed these art songs with a young singer who was associated with whoever was putting this together. Actually, an opera theater is what they're called, based in Minnesota. So we recorded my 3 art songs, and the director of an opera theater, Kelly Turpin, said, you know, I think that you could write this mini opera that they were doing for the Decameron Opera Coalition, which was put together during the pandemic. Of course, Decameron being a reference to Tales Told During Another Pandemic, long ago. And so these small to medium-sized opera companies commissioned people to write— it could be no longer than 11-minute operas. They were supposed to be on stories from The Decameron, but she got dispensation to do one about domestic abuse during the pandemic when people were, you know, sometimes locked in with their abusers. And so a new libretto by Jenny O'Connell who had never written a libretto before, but she consulted with a local women's shelter in Minnesota. And then that was what resulted, was like, I was asked to do this because she said, "I think you could do this. I think that the way that you approach art song is like storytelling, I guess," or the musical way that I approached it, she felt like I could write an opera. And it was just right for me to try it. 2 singers, 2 instruments, that was all they could afford. And so it was a really great entrance into it and, you know, a very meaningful project. And then I was asked to do, when they did another Decameron Opera Coalition the next year by a different opera company, to write something for them. And for this, I expanded it, like they had a little bit more time, so it was 15 minutes, it was 3 singers, and I could get up to 4 instruments. And I have no piano this time. I decided I was going to go a completely different route, partially because of the topic, which was about generational trauma, um, established, um, as a place like this beach that all Black people end up on the beach, and there are different generations of them, and this young woman has just arrived and she doesn't know where she is. And so it's a very metaphorical thing, and they have to figure out how to get through the situation and the answers together. But anyway, I decided that the piano wasn't something I wanted to use. I wanted to use a marimba, and I wanted to use a cello, and then I wanted to use a saxophone, and like an alto saxophone, and then some percussion. So that was, you know, starting to do more in the realm of orchestrating, and with instruments that I don't know. But having started my career in this so late, I know people who play almost every instrument. And I have collaborated with people who have played almost every instrument in some way. So I could reach out to people and say, hey, you know, you get a book that tells you this is the range and this is the things to look out for, but then you talk to the horse's mouth and they can give you more insight and, you know, you find out more. And people were willing to look at the parts and say, yep, this would work, or maybe you should do this here, or no, that's not a good idea, or something. So, you know, that learning curve, so many opportunities that I've been given. And yeah, it's really been like, I think, divinely led because I wasn't looking to do that at all. And then the other—

Yeah.

And so getting to do— I know I'm talking a lot. Getting to do Good Trouble was because that first opera that I wrote, someone who I knew, Diana Solomon Glover, was a singer in New York at the time that I was in New York.. And I learned from a friend, mutual friend, that she had written a libretto, her, I think her first libretto, and the piece was going to be performed at Santa Fe. And so I just reached out to her on Facebook and said, "Hey, congratulations on your first libretto, that's amazing." And I said, ironically, I wrote an opera, a first opera that I wasn't expecting to write. And so she was curious to hear it, and she liked it enough that she invited me to be part of this developing project. And I'll cut to the chase. So anyway, in the end, it was picked up by Cincinnati as a commission, and that's how that happened.

Yeah, it's incredible having to have this knowledge of writing, experience as a writer, also helps put together a production like this, right?

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, it's a full circle moment. But I understand that you're You know, I haven't read it yet, but there are novels by you, Choices, Letting Go, More Than Enough.

Yeah, I mean, Choices I wrote for fun when I was in grad school, and honestly, it was sort of an act of— I felt like I was reading stuff and I thought, oh, I could write that well. You know, I wasn't thinking myself a great author, but I was thinking I could write something as good as this, whatever it was I was reading. And, you know, it was fun for me to create that. Story, and I sent it to— because at the time you had to send them through the mail— Ballantine and maybe some, a couple other places. And this lady wrote me back and said, you know, I don't have any room in my list, but I think that, you know, Essence magazine was starting up a series of books for Black women, you know, romance novels. And it wasn't really a romance novel, but it was you know, there were relationships that were sort of the core of the court conflict was about relationships. So again, it kind of fell into my lap that I got this recommendation. They were just starting it, I sent it out, they accepted it. And so that was published. And then after that, the next thing I wrote was actually more than enough, but they, they said, okay, well, you're gonna have to get rid of— there are too many relationships going on here. And there was a gay character who was a central character. And they said, well, you know, I don't think you can have that. This is in the '90s. So I said, well, I'm not really willing to like get rid of these people. And I'm not willing to do that. And I wasn't setting out to be a famous author anyway. So that was fun. I'm gonna just go back to being a pianist now. And I don't know when it was that my mom suggested that something about, you know, writing something more about my own experiences, my own life. And Letting Go is not strictly autobiographical at all, because half of it is written from the point of view of a man. So I, you know, but there are outlines of things, like it does have some Juilliard, like the protagonist is a Juilliard-trained pianist, and she's at Juilliard, and I was extremely shy when I was first at Juilliard, and some of those things are actual stories, and some of it is really not. And so, you know, when there are aspects of my marriage, again, some of it's true, some of it's not. And so I would never say exactly what was true, what was not. Well, some things I would say, but not all of them. So anyway, that's where that came from. And then the other one, there was a Kindle thing where they were just having people, you could publish whatever. And so I said, well, I really liked the story of More than enough. And so, you know, it's a period piece because it was very much written in the time of the '90s. And so I just put that, you know, as a Kindle thing. Now they have taken that down. Now they don't have— you could buy episodes. And so I divided it. So it's not really available anywhere anymore. But someday I may upload it, you know, you can do that. So I may.

The great thing about, you know, these days As a creator, there are multiple ways to really put your materials out there, like whether that is a video format or— I know you were also at one time a podcaster too for a while.

Yes, I did.

Yeah.

And you also have an extensive blog. I've read a couple of them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's a lot. It's a lot. Finding Beauty. Yeah. That was my, that was my podcast. But I mean, I suppose the thing about it is if you have the attitude, which I kind of skew towards, of you putting it out there in some—

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They may find it, they may not find it, and then, you know, I'll do limited— like, I may post on Facebook or whatever and do a little bit of promotion, and then, you know, gets limited audience. And then other things, though, like, if you put out a book, it's like either you're saying, again, if someone finds it, they may find it. If not, they won't. But really, to get any sort of traction with a book, you need to really make an effort. With Letting Go, I sent it to various book reviewers, and you could send it, you know, and they wouldn't ask you for money to review it. They just wanted to get free books. And so I got a number of reviews, you know, from people I knew, but most of them were from me doing a lot of work and identifying people and sending them out. And sometimes they wanted hard copies, which means I had to buy hard copies. So I mean, that's the thing, you know, if you want, you can put it out there, but no one will see it unless you do some other work to make sure people know about it. So it takes energy.

It does. And time. Yes.

Sure.

Yeah. But it's fun being creative. Yeah.

That's true. That's true.

And once you start, it's just, for some people, it's just unstoppable, right? The creative energy just comes up and—

Yeah. In my case, I've had to like, narrow things down a bit. Like, I can't try to do all these things at once. I mean, there's a novel that I started, I think it was 2019, that I would still love to finish. But I haven't had, you know, I haven't had time. So I may find a way to circle back. It's not something that needs to be current. So, you know, who knows.

It's very inspirational hearing from you in person this way about creativity. Yeah, it's encouraging too. Then that creative DNA is really handed to your daughter and your son. And I know we briefly talked about your family, so I kind of want to focus on your son. And can you tell us a little bit about your son? I've enjoyed looking at his paintings and drawing too. I like the pencil drawing of Closet.

Oh yes.

So it's so incredible. And then also I love his self-portrait.

Oh yes.

Yeah.

He has a number of self-portraits. He likes to, yeah, he's, I don't know if he's his favorite subject, but he's one of his favorite subjects, I would say. Yeah, I mean, Malcolm was diagnosed with autism when he was about 3, and he had the language delays, and he still doesn't have a lot of expressive language, despite a lot of different interventions and lots of speech therapy. So his— he understands what you're talking about. And He, you know, he's— the essence of him is just like, he's very friendly and loving. And I mean, obviously, no one's always in a good mood, but you know, but the art thing is, it's a whole other business. It's another one of those things. So he's had a number of exhibitions, he was selected one of 15 people from across the country, actually, in 2019,— they had to be between 19 and 25, and he was just 19, he was the youngest one— for a Kennedy Center program. They have a number of things that are for people with disabilities, and the disabilities ranged from, you know, PTSD to sight, you know, like having vision impairment and just different things. And there were 2 people on the autism spectrum in that class of 15 and they were supposed to have a nationwide tour of the art, but then the pandemic happened. So they had— the art was just displayed at the Kennedy Center, and it was displayed— I arranged for one here in Lancaster, and there were a few other stops, but they had to be canceled. But, you know, he's had things that were published in like the Penn University review or something. I submitted things internationally at— there was a gallery in Toronto that had a show that again was delayed by the pandemic, but two of his pieces were exhibited there. But, you know, trying to maintain some momentum with that, again, it's a job. And so I'm the person who does it. My sister is the one who designed his website. And she's kind of the webmaster in the family. And so, you know, I mean, I guess the blessing with Malcolm is he doesn't have, you know, he's not like discouraged, or he doesn't feel like, oh, no one's buying my art, or somebody's buying my art. I mean, he likes to think that people like his art. He loves it when someone says, oh, I love, you know, you're a great artist, or anything like that. He really enjoys that. But he's not invested in like, how is my career going kind of a thing, you know, it's very— and it's not that he doesn't like to get paid for it. He does. But you know, it's— he's just as happy to go somewhere and get ice cream, you know what I mean? And, you know, just enjoy activities and whether or not people are investing in his art, he's not as focused on. And, you know, there are some things about his autism that I think are really kind of a gift, you know. I mean, he himself— anybody who has met him, you know, he really is a gift. He's just— has a beautiful soul, like, and Even when he was in school, you know, one of my daughter's friends has a sister who was in his grade. And so she asked, you know, does Malcolm ever get bullied? Because he wouldn't necessarily have the words to tell me. And I guess the sister just looked to her like, are you crazy? Like, who would bully Malcolm? That's crazy kind of a thing. But I know that for kids on the spectrum, that's not necessarily a crazy thought. You know, but he, I mean, even in both high school and in middle school, some big kid just kind of took him under his wing. I mean, Malcolm's very, he's tall, but he's very slight, like he's very thin. And I remember he wanted to go to all the school dances. He loves to dance. So, you know, I would take him to the school dance. And I remember dropping him off. Someone had told me that this guy who was on the football team had really taken a liking to Malcolm. And, you know, just as like, you know, like, hey buddy, you know, I saw him like, hey Malcolm, how you doing? And good to see you and all this sort of stuff. And, you know, he just attracts goodwill. And, you know, that's just an incredible blessing. Even like the other day, we were in the grocery store and some guy was like, hey, did you go to Hempfield High School? You know, yeah, I think I— I mean, he didn't— I guess he didn't really interact, but it's just, you know, he has Yeah, there's something about him, so it's really wonderful.

What a gift, what a gift. And really, it shows in his painting and portraits too. Yeah, I, I really like looking at them. Yeah, it's healing. So then, then you co-founded the Silence Optional concert series with, uh, Sarah, Sarah Mill.

Sarah Mill. Yes, Sarah and I, we started performing together as Duo Chiaroscuro when— in 2011. And so the name is a bit of a joke, and it's also kind of our approach to expression in that Sarah, her mom has Icelandic roots, and Sarah is very blonde, and I'm not. So I thought Chiaroscuro was an interesting name for us. But Somewhere along the way, you know, I can't always take Malcolm to concerts in that he may or may not be quiet in the way that people expect him to be quiet. And so there was a quartet in Canada actually that had started these series of concerts with that aim, and my brain is not functioning today. Anyway, I can't think of their name, but it's a string quartet, and so they would have allowed people to be in the audience who maybe, you know, are on the autism spectrum or whatever. And so we gave a number of concerts with that, that, you know, if even— I mean, little kids could come as well. And, you know, they were short, like 30, 35 minutes. They had a theme. The first ones that we did also had artwork for each piece that was created by Sarah's daughter. And, you know, like, whether she put together some videos, or, you know, she didn't create original artwork, but it would, you know, things would be— images would be projected. And yeah, they were, they were fun. I mean, we haven't been doing them lately. She isn't like completely out of the picture as far as being, you know, it's like an hour or an hour and a half away. But just over the course of time we haven't been performing as much together. But we, you know, as far as being asked to do those sorts of things, it's still on the table if people are interested in those programs, because they're very gratifying. And, you know, let Malcolm come to my concert and, you know, enjoy, because he really does enjoy all kinds of music, and including classical music.

Wow, wonderful. Yeah, now we're coming toward the end of our conversation. Is there anything else? I have like two major, uh, questions to ask before we go, but is there anything else? Did I miss anything?

I don't think so. I mean, we've covered a lot of ground. I don't think so.

Great.

Um, well, I mean Well, let me see what your questions are. Let me see what your questions are.

One is the legacy. What kind of legacy you hope to leave? I mean, you're still very young, but, you know, as an artist. And then the second one would be, what does true inclusion look like?

Okay.

You know, so.

Yeah. So legacy is something that I can't really worry too much about. I mean, I'm just trying to do what I feel I need to do in the moment. I mean, when you have written things like compositions, you know, there's a potential that people will continue to perform them. If you write a book or, you know, anything that I've put out there, having done that means that there will be people, and there are people who I've never met who've discovered these things, and that's always a gratifying feeling to know that people appreciate what you were doing and what you've done. I can't be sure of what legacy will be because, you know, that's something that will be determined way in the future, and sometimes people forget about you, even, you know, people who are considered major composers of the day, and then, you know, people forget them. I mean, until years and years later. I mean, even, you know, Mendelssohn had to resuscitate Bach, you know. So I'm not really going to worry about that. I just hope that, you know, I've used my time and continue to use my time on Earth in a manner that is positive. And, you know, I'm not trying to do something to undermine somebody else or, you know, just just use it in a positive way, and I can't really worry about the rest. And then the second question was about—

sorry, inclusion. Yeah, so, right, like, is it all about just including the repertoire by, you know, composers of color? But I think to me it's more than that. But also, let's say inclusion also can be You know, uh, on someone on a spectrum, right?

Yeah, I mean, and that's another marginalized group.

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People with disabilities, you know. Now, obviously, some things, I mean, well, okay, my thought about true inclusion is that first of all, to acknowledge that there was no good reason for us to be in this situation to even ask that question. You know, I mean, the systems that were put in place to exclude, you know, I mean, it was been so elaborate and so long-lasting. And, you know, we shouldn't even have to have these conversations because the parameters that have been used to judge and to exclude should not exist and make no sense. If you look at them, they make no sense, you know. So having gotten that out of the way, um, I mean, it would be wonderful to have a day when, um, there's not a conspicuous skewing in one direction about who is on the board of this. And who makes the final decision about that. And in addition to, you know, the programming and seeing diversity represented in programming. And to me, like, you know, the people who push back on the idea of inclusion and equity and diversity, I would have to ask, like, what is your objection? And if the idea is that, well, inherently certain things are not as good, because that has been sort of the idea, is that, you know, just making the assumption, well, this person did it, so it can't be as good, you know, um, the underlying logic there is non-existent. So I guess, um, I mean, the true inclusion would be when we're not thinking about this anymore. You know, and it's not that we're not thinking about it anymore because we don't want to think about it or we're ignoring it. Yeah, there's no willful ignorance involved or blissful ignorance. It's just we don't have to think about it anymore because, I mean, it's just like the obvious thing that should have happened in the first place is happening. Now, will that happen? You know, I mean, we can hope. We can hope. It seems that, I mean, it's natural that when you get to a certain point of kind of knowing. I think, you know, you love pie, and whenever you go to the place, the cafeteria, you always get 3 pieces, and then the other 10 people have to split the other 5, you know. Well, I mean, if you really love pie, it's not the sort of thing that you're going to give up easily to say, well, you know, well, how come I'm not getting my share of pie? There are 8 pieces of pie and I always get 3. It's like, well, should you be getting 3? It's like, yeah, but I've always gotten 3, you know, and I want, I want 3 pieces of pie, so what are you gonna do about that, you know? So I mean, that's the system. But I'm, I feel like, you know, there are enough people hopefully who are thinking about and thinking, well, You know, that is kind of a lot of pie, actually, you know, and get enough of those people and we get to the point where, like I said, we're not thinking about it anymore. And everybody's like, that's equity. And diversity is because there are a diversity of people and you say there's no one who inherently doesn't belong. So that's where the diversity comes in. When you have these disproportionate things, and inclusion, of course, is part of that. And, you know, the argument— I mean, without going on and on, and I'm going to just stop with access does affect all of these things. And I don't want to pretend that that isn't also part of it. I was born in a family that could afford good piano lessons and good music lessons and all kinds of things. And, you know, we can't expect everybody to give that away if you're a piano teacher. And so how important those who have the opportunity and the means to make access available, how important that becomes to those who could make up for the access that is not available because of these inequities. That's another, that's a whole other thing. So I mean, the Bill Gateses of the world are giving their money away, you know, Warren Buffett gives some money away, Mackenzie Scott gives some money away, and hopefully they realize that the arts and creativity are worthy of the funding in addition to whatever else they're funding. So absolutely.

Well, thank you. It's this season of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. This is the season finale. So the theme was on authenticity and joy. And then what a wonderful way to end this season with you. And also the next season, Season 6, the themes are creativity and connection. I just announced it. So it's just what a great way to really connect the bridge from 5 to 6 and ending on we talking a lot about creativity and also connection to community. So thank you, Maria.

Yes.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

So what's the best way for my audience to connect with your music and connect with you? Is that a website at mariathompson.com? It's mariacorley.com.

mariacorley.com. If you go to mariathompsoncorley.com, it also connects to that website. And then I have a lot of things posted on my YouTube channel if they're curious about my music. I can send you scores directly, or you can get them from Sheet Music Plus. They take a cut, but I mean, there's convenience of you don't have to wait for me to get back in touch with you. And then I have, you know, I post some on Facebook. I have a composer page, and I also have Instagram, which again, you know, to some extent I'm not I'm not full on like some people are, but I mean, I do post sometimes on those as well. So, yeah.

And I know we're connected on Facebook and I saw a lot of, almost like replacing your blog post onto Facebook. I feel like you have a—

Yeah, I have a Medium blog that I don't really— every once in a while I'll put something on there, but very, very rarely these days. So yeah.

Wonderful. Well, this has been a great, wonderful, inspirational conversation, but before I let you go, we have one more thing to do, which is the rapid-fire questions. And then this is the part of the show where I get to ask fun questions to each guest.

Okay, before you— before we do, since this is coming out before— yeah, at Wigmore Hall, if you're going to be in London on the 19th of July, I'm performing at Wigmore Hall in the afternoon, and it's a program of Black women composers. So this is for anybody who will be in their area.

Wow. July 19th in London, Wigmore Hall. And that's a really very famous venue in London. And is that your solo concert?

It's a solo concert for the most part. I have— I'm going to be joined by soprano Nadine Benjamin for just singing two of my songs and a song by Shirley Thompson, who is a British composer. So, yeah. If you're going to be there, that would be great.

Wonderful. Congratulations. That's a huge deal. Yeah.

Okay.

Rapid fire.

All right. So let's go to rapid fire questions. Are you ready?

I hope so.

Okay. So question number 1, what's your comfort food?

Oh, I love sweets. I have a sweet tooth. I don't have a particular sweet. Something sweet.

How do you like your coffee in the morning?

I don't drink a lot of coffee anymore. It gives me the jitters, but I have started mushroom coffee. And I usually— I'm a black coffee person. When I drink the real stuff, I like it black.

Cats or dogs?

Cats.

Sunrise or sunset?

Sunset.

Summer or winter?

Neither. I like late spring and early autumn, but if I had to choose, I'd choose definitely summer.

What skill have you always wanted to learn but haven't had a chance to?

Flamenco dancing.

Oh my goodness, that's awesome. What is your word or words to live by?

Um, carpe diem.

Seize the day.

Yes.

Okay, what is the most important quality you look for in other people?

Kindness.

This is hard. Name 3 people who inspire you, living or dead. Oh, uh, it can be a group of people too.

It could be a group of people. Okay, I will— I have to choose my ancestors because how they made it, I don't know, like just as a collective. You know, I'm inspired by my— I know this is a cliché thing to say, but my mother has— she's like such a resilient person. And yeah, just the way that she rides out the different curves that life has, curveballs, you know. So, and an optimistic person. I'm inspired by optimism. My sister is also an optimist, me not so much, but I'm inspired by optimists. And the third, you know, I'm going all like, this is really close to the vest, but my daughter, like, she moved to Los Angeles and didn't really know like, I knew there were some people there she could fall back on. But the way that she's forged a new community of really good friends in a place where people say people are plastic, and she's just, you know, she's doing her thing, and she's doing her thing far from home in a, you know, really big and interesting city. And I suppose I went to New York and kind of did the same thing, But I'm still inspired by that because she was such a shy kid and she just, you know, she's doing it and I'm impressed with her.

So those are 3 groups of people, 3 people.

Wonderful.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Now, name one piece in your current playlist. Any piece. Doesn't have to be classical.

Oh, I can never make a decision because, oh, that's impossible. It's impossible. I was listening to Chaka Khan in my car though the other day, and I was just enjoying that whole thing. And she has this version of Night in Tunisia that is so cool and was unexpected to me. So it's not really jazz, but, you know, she's singing the tune of Night in Tunisia, and I hadn't— so, um, that's just based on what I listened to last in my car.

I need to listen to it. Yeah.

Yeah, it's very cool.

The last question, fill in the blank, please. Music is blank.

Essential.

That's great. Wonderful. Now this ends this episode of The Piano Pod, and this is a season finale. And Maria, thank you so much for being with us today and joining us and sharing your remarkable journey and insights and with such authenticity and purpose and joy. So to our wonderful audience, if you'd like to learn more about Dr. Corley's work, please visit her website at mariacorley.com and follow her on Facebook, Instagram to stay up to date on her latest episodes, uh, latest projects and performances and publications and so on. And of course, thank you to our faithful fans and listeners for tuning in today. If you enjoyed today's episode, please give it a thumbs up and subscribe to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song on YouTube and And don't forget to share and review this episode on your social media and tag The Piano Pod with @thepianopod. It's one of the best ways to help us grow, and we'd love to hear your feedback. So for the latest piano news and updates, be sure to follow The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song on TikTok, LinkedIn, and Substack and more. I will see you in the next season of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song. Thank you so much, Maria.

Thank you. This is a pleasure.

Oh, bye everyone.

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