The Piano Pod Season 3 Episode 2: Eduardus Halim - Steinway Artist, Artist Faculty at NYU, the "Last Pupil" of Mr. Horowitz

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Welcome back to The Piano Pod with Clara Zhang and Yukimi Song. For anyone listening or watching our show for the very first time, welcome! Yukimi Song and I are both classical pianists and piano teachers from New York City. This podcast is for anyone who plays the piano for fun, loves listening to piano music, or for someone who is currently pursuing a career in piano or works in the industry professionally.

In each episode, we interview a guest speaker who has been breaking exciting new ground in the music industry. Before getting started, we want to thank our amazing fans and listeners for tuning in. Please rate our show and review it on Apple Podcasts because every Any rating review will help people find our show.

So Yukimi, I'm very excited about interviewing our guest of season 3, episode 3.

Actually, episode 2, sorry.

Episode 2, yes, you're right. Mr. Adronis Halim, who is a Stanway artist and artist faculty member at NYU, and of course he is the last student of the legendary Mr. Vladimir Horowitz. Oh my God, I know you have wanted to interview Mr. Halim on our show for quite some time. Because you know him personally.

Absolutely. I actually took lessons with Mr. Hao Lin for 2 years. I mean, you know, toward the end it was on and off, but I had a privilege to learn lessons, take lessons from him. And, you know, I stopped taking lessons probably a year or 2 before pandemic, so it's been a while. So I can't wait to catch up with him after so many years. But he's such a, such a dear, dear teacher and dear friend and wonderful person.

Oh my goodness, I cannot wait. And so amazing you got to study with him. I know. I, um, well, first of all, I, you know, my story, I, I basically opened up Rational Music on Upper East Side because as a child one day I read in the back of the COVID of a CD that I had of Mr. Horowitz and says his home, last home was on Upper East Side, New York City. And, you know, I just always had these little dreams. And so I was like, I'm gonna move there one day. You definitely haven't. And also Mr. Harleman, I actually met him once very briefly, maybe for 2-3 minutes, and when I actually, you know, auditioned at NYU and I came to study with Mr. Bernstein, and he was so warm and kind, but he came out so tall and handsome and stylish, so I was like, am I in the fashion department? So yeah, he's such a great pianist. You sent me the CD or the recording recently, and I was just a minute in, I was just sold. It was just such a beautiful song. And, you know, of course, Horowitz's biography, that's called Horowitz: His Life and Music by Harold Schenberg. And one chapter of the book is called Last People, and it's about Mr. Horowitz.

I know. I knew the fact that Eduardo was the last student of Mr. Horowitz even before I started taking lessons, of course. But when I found out that there was a chapter of his, you know, Mr. Horowitz's part of its biography dedicated to Eduardo and, you know, document their encounters and lessons. I was so overwhelmed, actually.

Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, so I can't wait to hear all these personal stories about Mr. Hermes and his own experiences as a young piano student back then.

Yeah, me too. I'm so excited to be able to reconnect with Eduardo after so many years.

So yeah, let's get the show started.

Yeah, of course, let's go.

You're listening to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song, where we talk to the brightest minds in the industry about how they are bringing the piano into the 21st century.

We're so honored to introduce Mr. Eduardo Salim, Steinway artist, a member of the artist faculty at NYU, and the inaugural holder of the Sasha Gromitsky Chair in Piano Studies. Mr. Haleen is hailed as a pianist for his superb technique, exquisite tone, and distinctive artistry. He has performed with major orchestras worldwide, including the Baltimore Symphony, Chicago Symphony, Cleveland Orchestra, and the Russian National Orchestra. In addition, he has given solo recitals at venues such as Alice Tully Hall, the Kennedy Center, and Wigmore Hall in London. Mr. Haleem is also known and recognized as the last student of the legend Vladimir Horowitz, which is documented in the chapter called "Last Pupil" in Harold C. Schoenberg's book, Horowitz: His Life and Music. After his second CD release in the year 2000, music critic Mr. Stephen Wigler wrote, quote, "Anyone who misses Vladimir Horowitz would be wise to investigate his old Chopin recital by Edward Haleem." Haleem, the last of the master's students. Mr. Haleem is a born Chopinist. Rather than call him his master's disciple, it would be better to call him Mr. Horowitz's successor, end quote. So welcome, Eduardo, to The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Yukimi Song. Thank you so much.

Welcome. Thank you so much, Mr. Haleem. No, absolutely. So happy to be here with you both.

Oh my goodness, we have so much to cover, but I just wanted to say how appreciative of you for being here. And I was telling Clara that, you know, I've always wanted to interview for our show. And then finally in season 3, I am ready to interview you, Mr. Halim. So I'm so happy.

I'm very honored. Thank you very much.

Yeah. And then so a couple of years ago, I was sort of, you know, restarting my piano journey again, you know, and practicing. But I felt like I need more guidance and lessons. So someone suggested you need to email Eduardo Salim. I was like, no way. He's like, you know, master. But this person said, you know, you just try, just email. So I emailed you. I mean, that's sort of the start. And I didn't hear from you. So I was like, yeah, you know, I'm just going to look for someone else to study. And then a month later, you emailed me back. I was like, I couldn't believe it. I was on cloud nine. I could not believe myself. And I was able to book you. For the first lesson, and I still remember that lesson. I brought Chopin Nocturne in C minor.

Yeah, difficult.

Yeah, I did. Yeah, it's so difficult. But I, yeah, I was so nervous. I, and, but I think a week, I continued lessons with you for about 2 years, a little over 2 years, on and off toward the end. But what a, what a great experience I had, and thank you so much for opening my eyes to the, this beautiful Romanticism.

Oh no, not at all. You're being very kind, and also the feeling is mutual, Yukimi Song. And I enjoyed it very much, you know. Teaching sometimes propels one to think about, for a student and also for oneself in particular. So for very selfish reasons, teaching is very good for anyone to learn about oneself. And that experience with you also was a wonderful one for me.

Thank you, that's awfully kind of you to say. But yeah, so I really want to know you more on a personal level because I know you as a teacher and you're always sitting right next to me and teaching me all the music. But today is all about you, your life, your career, and, you know, most importantly, you know, you are known as the last student of Mr. Horowitz, the legend, the genius. So we want to really go in deeper into that episode, that, you know, uh, story. So yeah, after 2, 3 decades from then, and so, but let's just start from your early years. I know you're from Indonesia, so let's start from there. So your life and what was, how the music was introduced to you and so forth.

Yes, you know, I grew up in a big household, uh, and actually It's large, meaning it's not an exaggeration because I grew up in a city called Bandung, Bandung, it's about 100 miles south of Jakarta. And it's a city of quite sizable, 1.5 million to 2 million people at the time, I think. And I have my family, we live in a Dutch house, a Tudor house, and it's quite a We were occupied by the Dutch for 300 years. And so we had, Indonesia got the independence since 1945. And I was born in 1961 in Bandung. And so my parents, you know, my father is from Xiamen originally, like all the Chinese diaspora who—

From Xiamen?

Yes, yeah, from Xiamen, yeah. And my mom's family from Singapore. Yeah, so they met there. But, and I come from a family of 6, meaning I have 5 siblings. So it's a large family. So we have a lot of, at the same time, a cacophony of noise every day because we also have, you know, I remember being growing up in the back of the house, it's a pretty size, quite large, but it's a factory, textile factory in the back. So I could hear sometimes, you know, I would be practicing and then I could hear the textile machine, you know, making clothing constantly. So, and then the people who work there and the helper and whatnot, they all live in the same, you know, general compound. So it's always surrounded by people. And so my parents had a small upright piano. I still remember it was a Blüthner.

Oh, Blüthner!

I play on one. Yes, yes, yes. So, and so to which my mom who loved theater, theater, and my father who loved, you know, fine art, fine art and paintings and whatnot. And then they suggested we should all take piano lessons. And piano lessons is very common. It's part of general education. So I was the one who was brought up, brought up, brought to a wonderful piano teacher, Susanna Sousa, Song Shuqing, I still remember. And then she said, oh, you know, this boy is talented, you know, and to which my mom said promptly, said, you know, one of these talented, I have 5 more to go. So which, which you did actually, you know, we have literally 6 of us. I'm the 4th in the family, so 6 of us studied piano. And then so, and, and it was constantly this part, you know, it is And looking back, you know, we all sometimes we laugh about it, how crazy the whole process was and how sometimes looking back at mom, you know, mom who lives in, you know, who lives in the city now. And then it's, I'm forever thankful thinking back because she was the one who really was very gan ho and took me to subsequently took me to violin lessons, to Javanese lessons, Javanese dance, and then to take that briefly a ballet lesson, a dance, and then a ballroom dance. So it's things that we did when I was a child. Sometimes I found it to my great annoyance. And but looking back now, I can say, well, thank God we did that. So it was just a kind of unstructured education, I must say, in addition to just a normal school. And so subsequently, because of that, I progressed quite fast. And then went on to Alphonse Beccalel, you know, who is my teacher's teacher at that time, was very well known in the city. And so I went to study with him. So it was a very also unusual because I was 10 years old at that time. And then he said, you know, first thing he said, oh, you facile. I have a facile facility, not necessarily with any particular discipline, but to learn. To speak of, but not what I understood it now, you know, but I said, okay, Beethoven's Third Concerto to study. So it's a very—

That's the first piece?

First piece to study with him, but prior to that I have done a lot of, you know, the Clementi, the Kulaus, and then we go by period, you know, the Mozart, after Mozart, the Haydn, Mozart, we just run through it as if like a not in particular profound way of looking or very detailed way of looking. So it was a very interesting kind of, but in hindsight, looking back at it, there was a good thing in many ways too that I learned the repertory is sort of in a very methodical way in that sense, you know, period to period through Bach, et cetera, et cetera, going up by the period. And so then when I went there to Beethoven, then I really I didn't find it, I didn't quite understand it why, but I played, you know, but it was not the best looking back, certainly not the most disciplined way, but the fact that it was taught so early on, it's remained, and it was just extraordinary. So my growing up, it was a little bit that way. And also then subsequently that, you know, you need to do recital and then the recital, so it was the solo recital, the divided recital. I still have the program somewhere. Oh, that's so exciting. Yeah, it's like, but you know, crazy program. And looking back, I said I would not even do that to, I would not have done that to my students, you know, or even to, if, but, but looking back is interesting. I started with, I believe it was the Bach A minor English Suite.

Okay.

And after that, we have the barrier to go to Mozart. So we do the Turkish March, you know, the A major, the sonata in A major. And then we did the D D major, and then after that we go to the Chopin. So I did Chopin Sonata No. 2, and after we go to Liszt and Liszt D minor.

Oh my gosh.

I mean, it was just crazy.

And you're only 10 years old.

I was 12 years old starting that program. And then when I was 13, but then after that, when I played the recital, so the program is completely obscene. I mean, but, but, but, but But I didn't understand, so because, you know, there's no gauge, no standardized, and Bandung, mind you, there's no music school. We all taking privately, so it's a completely on your own. And then there's no conservatory to speak of, there's nothing after school, and I just do whatever I feel like. And then, you know, but still looking back Looking back, and I can— the memory of the Liszt sonatas is pretty much in my— under my finger. I felt like, you know, and the Chopin sonata is different. That's awkward, more really one— it's not so easy to wrap. But Liszt sonata for some reason felt comfortable. Well, comfortable is not the right word for the Liszt sonata, you know, but meaning good to— so it was very Interesting thing is that, so I looking, I must say that was remarkable. Yes, the, the, and I can say with a great conviction to say it can have, it could have been very harmful had I gone, you know, and it could have been also many things can go wrong, but on the other hand, looking How one shape a voice, I think it matters a lot and how your environment and how one works and, you know, the mind, it was not regimented at that time. So sometimes I'm not looking, I wish I have much more regimented system. So perhaps where I, to this day, sometimes I feel like I Yes, there's a kind of deficiency I have to always overcome with greater effort. But had I been 12-year-old trained in some great institutions, you know, and some really known, and perhaps there would be, I would have an easier time, felt a greater confidence perhaps. But it's musical development that it's something else in the child that because it's like a child, you know, you let them out, out and do whatever they want, and they found it. So I was pretty much growing in that musically in that sense. Then after he, he passed away, then I didn't meet another teacher and did another 4 years, and when I was 17 years old.

But with that sort of like a free environment, I think, yeah, you can say, oh, I wish, oh, I wish I had this I wish I had a little bit more strict, much stricter, but I think that really inspired you to be really artistic and, you know, even that influence still is there in your playing, don't you think?

Yeah, I think, I mean, you know, I had the benefit of living long enough to look back and say, well, that's—

No, you're still young.

No, maybe that's— yes, you know, it is something It's something, look, I looking back because now the experience of teaching a lot, you know, and meeting a lot of musicians, and then, and I'm thankful for that, not even once I, and I thank my mom and my father for that, the fact that they just did, they didn't know any better, so, and they didn't know any better except they know that the son is talented, but the 4 years of not having teacher also, yeah, at that age, right, and I read In the book, your first teacher was Hungarian trained, right? Yeah, yeah, Alphonse Becker. But you know, he didn't, he never really quite went to The Piano Pod with anything. He only just played some fast facility. And I still remember that he has a 9-foot E-bach. Oh wow. Yeah, yeah. And I was, he was perhaps the only Western Westerner in my city that I know. Oh my God. You can imagine how unusual it was. But then when I was 17 years old, I met a really superb and dedicated teacher. It was Stephen Sulungan, who really said, you know, listen, my dear, you are way venturing to the wrong, to the devil path. I need to put you straight back. And there were the beginning of working carefully and to understand how each physical element matter and introducing what it is the sound should be in relation to sound.

So earlier you said something about like Liszt feels comfortable. So I was thinking, 'cause my very first piano teacher actually was also, when he taught me, he just came back from Hungary to China. And I had switched over from like from From 3 to 9, I was playing keyboard, and they were like training us to be DJs, basically, you know. It's like standing up, you know, it's like very cute. And then all of a sudden I went to him, and he was like, okay, you're gonna play some, you know, Beethoven, you're gonna play something like— and I remember I was like, this is wild, you know. He was like, it's okay, you can just try it out and just try it out and see how you feel. And that gave me the courage to actually, you know, 2 years later apply for the conservatory, and I grew up in the Lao Hmong generation and we're the same age, so I wonder if that has something, you know, that almost fearfulness, like a fearlessness, you know?

Yes, yes, yes. And then, you know, I think that when— the great thing about being a child is that you really don't understand, you know, everything is done by intuition a lot of time, which is very important. I think that intuition is very, very valuable, but But, you know, fear seeps in when you're getting older and older and you start understanding more stuff. Definitely. Yeah, but I think you're still unpacking, you know. Yeah, yeah, sure. Yes, yes.

Wow. So right now, so, so speaking of fear, I mean, coming to the United States and studying at Julia, I don't know how you felt. Maybe, you know, if I first time— I, I am— I was an international student too. I had so many, you know, ambitions but also fear too. So how was it like coming to the United States in studying with amazing greatest Sasha Gominsky and then later on Rudolf Firkuschny. And so, yeah.

Yeah, it is, you know, when I mentioned how important my form, my sort of like unorthodox way of growing in Indonesia. But I must say the most important formative, really, really form, it was the 4 years I was at Juilliard and then subsequently 4 years later with percussion at Juilliard as well. And it was Sasha is the one who really, Mr. Gorenitsky, who was really, really very crucial to start developing my tone. And so when we speak of technique, even when my work with Mr. Horowitz was, we only aim for one most important element is the voice. It's not even, that element is covered almost universal, I think. It's that everything else is just, it's only to serve that voice, that sound that is identifiable with the individual musician. And that was Mr. Goransky start putting the foundation for me. It was the kind of teaching So really, and my lack of understanding from Indonesia, and I didn't know what to expect, but I was at the great institutions, you know, and accepted there. And it was very— you don't know what you fear because you don't know what it is. So I really didn't have that much fear, but I also realized early on that everyone seems to be practicing except me. So I thought I better just stay back because, you know, My first year, my first semester, I was like, you know, practice a little bit. Oh, it's like, you know, life is so beautiful and free. Very important. Just go downtown all the time and then exploring the city. It was in 1980. I thought that I was— I would just complete— I never seen anything. It was like, you know, New York is one of the greatest city. And I didn't realize, I thought initially, I thought it was what a mess the city was. It's completely— I was on my own back then. But thankfully, I also did— I must say too also that I met very soon after I arrived at the New York meeting was I met Judy, you know, my wife, who was also studying with Herbert Stassens at Juilliard. So that's how we met. And that was important. And I mean, it was a built-in support also, unknowing, of course, you know, it was very important, I think. But studying with Sasha It's extraordinary that I came at the time that Sasha just had major health issues. He had, I believe it was a quadruple bypass. And so when he came back on a limited basis, so I was working and he has assistantship and consists of all, who is the musician, the great musician, I mean, you know, it was André Laplante, the Canadian pianist who I heard in 1977 in Australia. That propelled me actually to come to to apply for Juilliard because I heard he's playing in the Sydney Piano Competition and he played absolutely— I thought that he should have won, but, you know, but he did well. And I heard also Diana Kakso, another former Goransky alumni. And so I studied— the assistant is Andre Laplante and Janina Piatkowska, also very Absolutely fantastic pianist, Canadian pianist who was a big protégé of Arthur Rubinstein. And, you know, we have also Joseph Villa, who I didn't have the luxury to meet, but he passed away sooner after that. And also a great talent, American talent, and it was from Sasha. And I think there's a few more. And the one that I worked with who I love dearly was James Barbagallo. And James Barbagallo is perhaps Perhaps what Mr. Gorensky was teaching me, Barbara Gala was able to train me. And then he was the— it was really in many ways looking back, it was the beginning of how to read music properly and how to read the score properly. It was, you know, and as I was mentioning early on, I mean, it was pretty much, you know, Stefan Sullungan putting me a lot of the physical apparatus artist in connection to sound. But it was Barbara Gallo who's the one who introduced me to much greater respect towards the score. And to which I think that even to this day, I still treat the score as if like I look at this as a piece of artwork, you know, constantly changing. So if I found I can find something interesting and new, that means I do well. That session. If I found it just familiar, then it may not be so good quality, you know, the rehashing problem. So that's how— but Goronisky was also— by the way, you know, I have some— I must show you.

Is that a picture of Mr. Goronisky?

No, no, I have— oh, this is— I have a picture here. This is Harold Schoenberg.

Oh, the person who wrote The Piano Pod with Mr. Horowitz. Yes, biography.

Right, that's right. And of course, you know, he was, he's very much, he's equally instrumental in my life, Mr. Schomburg was, because I met him in 1984. We will get to it later on because he was also the author of Great Pianists. Oh, right, yes, yes. The great conductor. And I have, you know, I was fortunate enough to to have, to know him until his death, you know. And so for the period of 20-some-odd years, you know, we literally— but not to diverge, you know, the story was— Mr. Schomburg also was also an author of many interests, including How Not to Bogey. Oh my gosh! Oh my gosh! He was fascinating because, you know, the mind, a great mind, And as such, actually, Wanda and Vladimir Horowitz knew how much Schomburg meant to me. And he would occasionally, you know, hint, hint, hint on the coffee table where we will be taking, and he would say, you know, look at this article, you know. There was a picture pretty much an article that it did in Facing Music, you know, and where, where Sayyidina Schomburg was talking about what today's young people know, meaning young pianists, and he said one that would say, "He's right, you know, he's right." And so I sort of get a hint there was a kind of rapport, in cultural rapport between Schomburg and Horowitz, and I felt that very strongly. But anyway, so, but getting back to Mr. Horowitz, to Mr. Goronitsky was, he was Levin, studied with Joseph Levin. And so, and really pretty much I must say, you know, Joseph Levin being, when we talk about the apex of pianism, you know, the so-called the golden age era of pianism, I would say Levin would rank up there. I see. Yeah, you know, and yet he, his output is small, meaning his recording output is very small, unfortunate, you know, and I mean, he was, he dedicated much more to teaching and Goranji was very much byproduct of that great school, pianism of school. It's mainly the sound, the deep singing tone, And then it was the kind of understanding where Rosina Levine and Joseph Levine wrote that Principle of Piano Playing. It's a small book, you know, which is— I think it was a seminal book for pianists because here we thought about how the usage of flattish to create sound and how legato is the most important and it's singing So I remember the entire work of 4 years with Sasha was always say, he would constantly emphasize until you can tell it is the act of singing, constantly singing, singing, no, not singing enough, it was no, no, no, no, no. And even I felt like my head has already drilling into the key. That's not enough, he said. You need to play all the way to the floor. That's how the power of creating. And but, you know, in all in here, all of them say, share very common thing. In order to do this, you need the strongest technique. And then this strongest independent of the finger and the strength of it. So it's the usage of the the weight, the flexibility of the torso, and etc. So it's really all encompassing, you know, and if you're talking about speaking of the piano technique, which is how— and I learned, and then the habit of learning of also, there is no such a thing as learning fast with Sasha. And I work on the Rachmaninoff 3, it's like 1 year, Schumann, the Davidsbunder Tanz, 1 year. It's just to— there's no such a thing you work for 1 month and move on. Want to touch it. It's just not— in retrospect, I would say this, maybe at least it works for me on my piece, and I felt like I can finally internalize it better, right? Which is, after all, this is, you know, this is important work.

So, and did you go to a lot of concerts back then? I'm sure you did.

Yes, yes, yes.

I mean, when I was in Kansas, I actually, I, you know, I Well, to tell you how I actually met you, you probably don't remember. I mean, such a long time ago. I was in Kansas. I mean, I, I came here on tour, and then I met a teacher in Manhattan School, and she was like, I speak Chinese. And I was like, I don't speak a word of English. So she was like, well, you know what, let's go to Kansas. I'll give you a scholarship. So once I'm there, you know, a couple years in, and I have this other, other teacher, um, James River.

Mr. James Rivers.

He was, you know, very well known in Kansas, but he studied at Juilliard. So he kept on talking about all these concerts that he goes to, you know, when he was in New York. And I'm like, you know, I actually promised to a tree when I was 3 that I was gonna move to New York, but shh, I can't tell anybody because I mean, Kansas is hard, I'm gonna go to New York, you know.

So he was like, why don't you just email, you know, Mr.

Bernstein and then see if you can take a lesson. Lesson, and I came, and then Mr. Bernstein was like, okay, go talk to Mr. Harleen, and I remember seeing you, and then I was like, am I in the fashion department or, you know, The Piano?

Because you're so well dressed, I thought you were like a fashion designer or something. Too vain.

No, no, no, you're a true artist, and you're so kind.

So tell us a bit. I, by the way, you know, I adore Mr. Bernstein, uh, Seymour. I think he's, he's I really wanted to— when we were in school, I always find that his saying is always the most— a lot of wisdom and wit. And really, I really was— when we speak, you know, and I enjoy very much his sensibility.

Yeah, I actually didn't get to come to New York eventually. My Chinese teacher forbid me from going to New York when I was 21, so I only moved here later. But so I really am curious of like the concept interesting, you know. So like, did you go to a lot of concerts when you were—

I've been here many. I heard many. I heard Lazar Berman. I heard Yuri Agorov. A lot of— at the time it was a lot of Russian, Russian so-called, you know, when the Soviets still quite close, you know. I came in 1980. So it's— and also we also have this impression, you know, anything the Soviet piano, must be really good, you know. And after all, I studied with a Russian teacher, and also this kind of feel, you know. And I heard Askenazy was a fantastic pianist also. The daughter of Askenazy was just— and I heard Maurizio Pollini is a— I grew up listening to Pollini in Indonesia, you know. In Indonesia, we listen to Deutsche Grammophon or Teka or Phillips, you know, they must be good. And I go to a lot of the Carnegie Hall recitals, you know, and it was such a beautiful hall. So I was introduced to concert. I heard Martha Argerich, very exciting. You know, a lot of pianists, and of course at the time, you know, Zubin Mehta was coming as a conductor as well. Prior to that was Bernstein, and it was quite an incredible life, you know, to constantly be exposed to it in the music scene. And Alis Talib also have concerts all the time, you know, a lot of artists would come. So it was an incredible learning experience for me because just to see how these people, and then to realize that, you know, just as we were talking about the fear or lack of fear when you were young, But these people to do it all the time there in front of that many people, that was another kind of, of, of, of, of accomplishment.

Sure, so that's what it is about coming to New York and study because you get to see all these giants in front of your eyes. But to me, you are also one of the giants.

You are!

So we want to know your performance career, like any memorable concert you've given, or maybe concerto, or just give us like one story.

You know, I remember many things, certainly, you know, and, you know, as an artist, you know, we played really well, sometimes not so well, you know. Anyway, we would like to know, oh shucks, you know, but what happened. But nevertheless, it was always, we learned to always bounce back from it and then always look forward and then not dwelling too much as long as work, work, work, work all the time and trying to make sure. And so, you know, I enjoy performing for instance, the concerto I performed quite a bit also with the Rachmaninoff Third I did quite often. And then it was, I always found it gratifying to play them, but although it's pretty sadistic in a sense, you know, the effort had to be put in there. But it is— Rachmaninoff is a very glamorous and yet felt, you know, it's a serious music, unlike some quarter who perceive Rachmaninoff as being a little bit too lightweight, but I don't agree at all, you know. But however, and also I ventured into Chopin. Chopin certainly was my favorite to perform. I found the second concerto is such a beautiful. I remember playing that with the Cleveland and it was really such a great orchestra. Certainly you can find, I mean, really there's many fine orchestras, but Cleveland It's, to me still, I remember being, it was just absolutely phenomenal. It's a virtuoso orchestra with great sound. I think in many ways one can, you know, it's a great conductor they had there. And I also work, I love very much working with a fellow musician from Indonesia originally, Xiaoyao Ling. And also, you know, Ling Wanjie. Such a fine musician, and he was truly a great musician. I thought that, you know, conducting beautifully, but I think it's the feeling, the rapport. I felt it was just extraordinary when you have that and you're considered— and David Zinman, I think, who also I look back with great fondness because it is very beautiful, just a great musician, I thought, you know. And so, and then, and the sound of the of the Chicago Symphony versus Philadelphia. It really is something to be like next to you to hear. And then, but so the Chopin Second Concerto is one of my favorite also, I must say. And another one that I really remember being, this is talking about the concert with orchestra, was I remember being the, with the MPO, with the Malaysian Philharmonic, many, some years back. Back and the first time I performed the Noches from The Fire, I must tell you that is extraordinary experience, at least the sonic experience for to, you know, we, The Piano Pod is mostly almost like we could even call it not quite a concerto, it's not, you know, but it's, you know, part of the orchestration, but the sensation of hearing that when the theme is coming with everyone digging into their instrument and you are being I think the greatest warmth, and then I realized how great an orchestrator Manuel de Falla is, not only just the great composers, Spanish composers, you know. And so, also performing Goyescas, I must say, is considered the most gratifying experience. It's almost like you're explaining, you're not explaining, you're going through a journey on epic stories. And similarly with the Schumann, to which I love the most, you know, and then I, Schumann to me, it's very, very dear. And in fact, in many ways, I must say it was Schumann that gave me a lot of good start. It's very strange, right? And it was Mr. Schoenberg met me in 1984 and in Sydney. And he said it was, "Yeah, man, the David Bündler Tanz." And that was the beginning of our, you know, and he wrote subsequently in the New York Times Magazine, you know, reporting that the event and how the David Bündler Tanz was perceived very well by, you know, and so to which to me, David Bündler Tanz is one of the great this human work as well. Of course, but there are many, many of the human, you know, for instance, I love The Humorist greatly and I worked so deeply with Mr. Horowitz and to play The Humorist also, oh, it's like you are manic in that sense, you know, the kind and I must say I'm currently learning the novelette. Oh, nice! Yeah, after all, you Yeah, that was the first meeting I met with Mr. Horowitz. Mr. Horowitz would look at the piano and played the "Novelette" for me. Oh my gosh! That aural sound, I still— the color, the magic, and it remains. And I was completely, completely overwhelmed.

Wow. You have the recording of Goyazkas too, right? Yes, that's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that and all Chopin. And of course, that all Chopin CD became one of the monumental, let's say, in your career that really leads to much bigger thing later on that we are going to discuss. But yeah, do you want to maybe talk about either one of those recordings of yours?

Yeah, I certainly would. You know, it was a project that comes later to, you know, after studying with Mr. Horowitz. I remember that soon after actually, you know, When I was with Mr. Horowitz, you know, we were working quite a bit on Chopin and the sonata being one of them. And I always play Chopin for him, you know, and mazurkas, he played mazurkas all the time to me. We talk about the mazurkas and it was interesting because I think in here, as we, if I trace back, you know, the beginning of my love, I mean, I always loved Chopin, but beginning to understand Chopin was when I heard Friedman play, a recording of Friedman.

Ignace Friedman.

Ignace Friedman. And it was interesting, you know, it was Mr. Schormacher who said, listen to this, you know, and he invited me to come to view because he has really quite an incredible collection of recordings, you know, and he's certainly an authority in terms of what a pianist's world is like after, you know, and so the knowledge. And he was telling me, Eduardo, you know, let's listen to this one. I heard Friedman first, and I heard also the Opus 55 No. 2, and I heard his Song Without Words from Mendelssohn. I must tell you, that's— I never heard that tone, that sound, that singing sound is almost like is speaking to you directly and that kind of communicating. And maybe the closest I heard subsequently after I knew this, there was a period also I heard also Tchaikovsky, Shura Tchaikovsky in life, and we're talking about Carnegie Hall. That was prior to the changing of Carnegie Hall, meaning prior to the renovation, the famous sort of debacle of renovation. I heard Shura Tchaikovsky and played, and Shura played mazurkas there. And also played the Chopin Nocturne, Op. 62, No. 2. I still remember that, including the— because that sound, that beautiful colored, creamy sound, I never heard it before that, never. Now, so you can imagine the— so But then I have to sort of— the timeline is a little bit off, a little bit, but I must also explain to you, sort of explain what happened. So this is not— it is quite true how Mr. Horror is being perceived. When somebody is at that level, there's a lot of detractors and a lot of, you know, suspicion, a lot of It's partly— it's Liszt. Franz Liszt suffered from it greatly too, I think. I mean, it is so well documented. But in terms of Horowitz, when Horowitz came to play at the Met, and a colleague of mine at school was like, are you going to Mr. Horowitz's concerts? And I really didn't know who he was. And because, as I said, and I was introduced only to Polonaise, Irish, and you know, this is a great name, Mr. Horowitz was completely not known in Indonesia. We didn't hear. I know Arthur Rubinstein, for instance. And so, but I went that same afternoon, there was, I heard, you know, very dear and very respected figure, you know, I respect very much, was hearing, I heard the conversations went on something like this, "Are you going to the concert?" And to which which the person say, "Oh no, I'm not going there." "Oh yes, of course." You know, it's a master of exaggeration. And so there was the— so I asked this person, "Who are you talking about?" And he says, "Vladimir Horowitz." And it is not that I was really such a— it is not a good song, I don't have to worry about it. So the next day I heard friends reported to me, said, you know, you never heard. It's the sound. It's in the huge Met Auditorium. They said the sound that— then a friend, a dear friend of mine, I still remember, Moonik Chu, big professor, become one of the big professors at Seoul National and one of the great this friend of mine, very dear friend. He put the recording of Funerai on the recording and then through the phone. And that's how I said, who is this one? I was completely shaken by that, that's your devil demonic kind of playing. That was the beginning of a Horowitz bug. It was totally—

That's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who is this? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But the sonority that I was thinking, my God, it's possible. It's Mr. Horowitz playing. It's, well, some people say, you know, it's like opium, you know. It is true. It has that effect on you because it's so just beyond spectacular. It's the kind of this temperament that is so far and and the range of the emotion he created. And it is, so it was really something. And I didn't, of course I missed it. So then there was the period where Horowitz made the last romantic movie and it was played in Carnegie, in Carnegie Hall. So the best, the next best thing I can do is Judy and I went to Carnegie to sit there to watch a film, and the film's done by Albert Maysles, the movie maker who was my landlord. Oh my God!

Wow!

You know, it's very funny. I told you that my life is strange. I had, I had, I moved in November, month of November to December for one month to New York. To have a room rented, you know, with Albert Mansells in the Dakota apartment. And then the day after I moved, the day after John Lennon was shot, the strangest thing.

Yeah. Oh my goodness.

Thank you. Mind you, it was very strange, but it was, it was a wonderful, wonderful. And then above his apartment, the Bernstein, Lenny Bernstein, on the second floor and I get to see your koan and what. It was quite, quite, quite— not knowing, okay, but not knowing that he would be— he was a documentary maker for the Rolling Stone, but not knowing he will be the one who made that last romantic movie. And so I went to here and then it was just very moving, even through the films. And then to which Judy, I remember this We have conversation on the way back. We were so overwhelmed with how sound that, that the projection of free, you know, speaking poetically and such. And then he said, you know, I wish you could study with him. And to which I just laughed. Sure. After all, when I was in Indonesia, my oldest brother, he's nuts, you know, he would write to RCA, said, you know, I have a younger brother who is very talented. He'd like to study with Maestro Rubinstein. And RCA prompted, wrote back to my brother, said, oh, perhaps, you know, your brother can consider Curtis Institute of Juilliard. Nice! No lack of ambition.

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Now let's continue with the episode.

You know, so we, we have to speak about Mr. Horowitz now, right? So I've been— we've been hearing his name a lot now. So we both read the chapter of Mr. Horowitz biography, Horowitz: His Life and Music by, you know, Mr. Schoenberg. And then, and one of the chapter is about you, the last few, you know, I Of course, I knew of you before I took lessons with you. I knew of you before I came to New York, but I never knew that one of the chapters was about you, dedicated to you, and I was so overwhelmed when I bought the book. I was like, oh my goodness, am I going to take piano lessons from this guy? I couldn't believe it.

So I didn't know that at all.

But yeah, that chapter, that whole story, the 10 pages of it, because a beginning is so exciting, but it's— I never knew it was just so complicated in the end. And so, so I want to know, we want to know, what was it like the first lesson? Because to me, first lesson was with you was nerve-wracking. And I kept a journal.

You see, this is the journal with you.

And I even wrote a specific exercise to do and everything. Every day I took a journal for 2 years. And then, so I know you kept the journal while taking lessons from him, so I wonder if you still keep— you have it, and if you ever—

I still have it. It's a small journal, and I kept it. And then, you know, even, even when Mr. Horowitz called me and whatnot, I would say, and he would subject, you know, sometimes, you know, my, my tummy don't feel so well, you know, think something that mundane, you know. But I had—

but, but But tell me, so tell, tell, tell, yeah, the first, first lesson, first lesson, how did you come up about to do?

Yes, so it's all actually, it seems to be like looking back, I can say it seems to be like a natural, a natural process, you know, and, and, and, and why, why sometimes I always wonder why it happens to me, why, why it happens to other people in different ways too, you know, but that's how it, things fall into places and then And so it started, but prior to this, I'd like to also speak not quite briefly, but about Rudolf Firkuschny. You know, that was after Gaurangi died, 4 years, I went on to the great Firkuschny. And I must tell you this experience of Firkuschny also, it's maybe perhaps one of the most worldly musicians I know. And one of the most patrician musicians I know. And here where it's interesting, you know, when one become— you are surrounded by studying. Studying is not just merely studying piano, studying is studying to be the person you like to emulate, the person that influence you, the thinking, the kind of the kindness, you know, the warmth of the person, you know, or for that matter If you meet a person who you found that rather not the quality you'd like to be, so that's also a learning process. But for Kusni was all in all was the most elegant person I know. And then even to this day, to his last day, I still remember, I mean, meaning last day, the last day of me working, I would say I would thank him previously for the time he spent. He would say, he says, "No, Edward, it's Sasha, the one who made you." And that kind of generosity. And in fact, I brought up Trukushny because to study with him was to study to see how a great musician with great experience, because he was a favorite of many conductors, George Zell included, and he was He was perhaps less known in a sense than not the Horowitz fame, but among musicians he was legendary because it's also as the kind of, he leaves what's so-called the ideal musician where he knew the composer, championing great composers. Since he was a child, he was taken care by Leoš Janáček, took him on as he was a boy of 8, 9 years old. It was remarkable. I mean, I was in NYU doing the— last year I was doing a sort of not a lecture or not lecture, so it's, you know, collegium, speaking of the Czech school and where I was talking about Jana Ček, the Dvořák, Martinu, and here is all the— they are so close to Firkušny. So he's a very important figure in here. He's the one who introduced Martinu very much. The stories is unbelievable. And Firkušny was one of them. One of the great, gracious men and with so much stories to tell because he was also very dear, was very dear to Mr. Horowitz. And in fact, Mr. Horowitz said to me, he said, you know, when he decided to take me on, he said, please ask Rudy for permission. He's my dear friend, you know, and to which I asked Rudy for permission, to which, which is very important to, in hindsight, I can see I see why he said it. He said, Eduardo, it's a perfect time for you. Had it been early, early on, I would say no. And then I think, of course, you know, one can attest that from the Baskin book, you know, Grant Baskin, which is not the most— I must say there is a lot of feeling discomfort when I read that book, you know. But that's some truth to the fact that, you know, sometimes it's difficult to— when somebody is that overpowering personality to study with that, and when you are young. And so I was already reaching my 27, I believe, at that time. So Kriyakushni said, by complete blessing from him, he said, by all means. Then stories after stories that Kriyakushni would tell me, he said, how Mr. Hararitsu you know, used to cancel concert, you know, whatever, you know, would call me and say, you know, Rudy, Rudy, please come to my place, you know, and then we said, come, you know, Giancarlo Menotti and, you know, Sam, Sam Barber are here with me.

Sorry, all the name dropping, we can't take it.

It was incredible. I mean, so he said, you know, and to be such a Rudy, with the cabin, we will be there, and then it's 94th, and says, Horowitz with the— and he said, "What is it, Mr. Horowitz?" Said, "You know, this afternoon I supposed to play with the Baltimore Symphony." But so let's find a burlesque dancer somewhere in the, they say, you know, in Chinatown. Mr. Horowitz is a fun guy. I mean, he would be like a complete party guy. Who knew, right? Who knew where the best thing to do? So because she has had a— she would get a gun on the taxi, you know, we will go downtown looking for dope, you know, looking for dope. But, you know, was shut down by the police. So Mr. Horace, not lacking of ideas, said, let's go up to Times Square, you know, I know a burlesque dancer with a python. Oh my gosh! And so he would— he saw that announcement on the door It's like, this establishment was shut by animal cruelty. It turned out to be that the python was stapled in the mouth. Oh my! I heard a great many stories of people telling me. I agree, we were such a— I miss him very much, Mr. Fukunaga was a bad fighter. But anyway, so getting back to Mr. Horowitz, it was in 1984 after Mr. Schomburg Hurt Me played and in Sydney Piano Competition. So it's also talking about career choice, you know, it's interesting. But I did there and I think I was awarded the fourth prize, you know, and— but the subsequent from that was a big change in how trajectory of my career actually. There I met also there was a lady, very elegant person, lady, Jenny Vogel, who was helping out with the competition. And she was apparently, they would make a brief introduction and then she was paying a lot of attention to the competition. And subsequently she was always in touch, or at least she sent her people at, who become eventually become my manager. And it was important because ICM ICM, she was one of the big person at ICM and ICM was really one of the best. It's to what we know as Opus 3 is still, I think to me, was really, they're the one come direct from Seoul Heroc, you know, agency that actually nurtured artists. And I was very lucky to be with them for, you know, for a good amount of time. She was the one who helped greatly, and of course a number of other people there. But that's from the Sydney competition. I didn't win first prize, I won fourth prize. And then, and then Schomburg subsequently also wrote in the New York Times stories. That's also important because it would— it put me on— people must start recognizing a little bit more. And that— so, so, so then after that also Schomburg apparently wrote I heard later to Mr. Horowitz because they made an— they made trying to say, you know, if you find any interesting young person and then vice versa, we let each other know. And then many, many people go through, many pianists come to Mr. Horowitz through him, Mr. Horowitz's life, just to, to, to why not. And so, so that's how it started. Then Mr. Horowitz, Mr. Duval, who I took the class at The Piano Pod with at Dupal was a very mesmerizing person and a very charismatic person and vast knowledge. And he was bringing a lot of people to Mr. Horowitz from Juilliard. So maybe I was one of the last batch of people that he brought. And so that's how finally Mr. Horowitz was aware from— that was in 1984. And then the reason why in 1984, because Mr. Horowitz Horowitz was already— Mr. Schomer was working for the memoir, for Horowitz's memoir, was working. So it was already in place. And subsequently, of course, you know, Mr. Duval wrote his own, The Evening with Horowitz, during the— after— soon after Mr. Horowitz passed away, if I'm not mistaken, yeah, in the timeline. But this was— it's been long in the making. And so Mr. Horowitz also, the period of Mr. Horowitz's very importantly. Remember that Mr. Fukushi said it's important that, you know, it's the timing is right. And Mr. Horowitz is also legendary for his temperament, you know, and could be a little bit more unpredictable, perhaps to say mildly, and also is mercurial, you know, it can be difficult. But the first lesson I had with Mr. Horowitz I was about to play addressing your mention and the first word he says, "Harlem, don't worry. I understand everything you will do and what you want to do." That was the first thing he said. Play, play. It was the most, of course, I was nervous for so many days. And I want to make sure that, you know, you have to dress up properly. It's a tradition. You wear a suit, you wear your shoes properly, and you wear a tie properly and whatnot, because it's an old tradition. We meet, I mean, with Mr. Shoma the same, with Hrikrushna, always dressed up elegantly. I almost said, you know, this is Hrikrushna like Errol Flynn coming to Juilliard. It's like always dressed the most elegant, and Garonne is with this old as today's very different, of course, the world has moved on, you can be more casual, but at that time, so the anticipation was so remarkable. And I met at 7:15 on the dot, and then we spoke a little bit, and then Mr. Horowitz would make sure that I'm comfortable and whatnot. And, and so, so then I played, and so, you know, not easy. And of course, which, you know, as I said to you, sometimes not knowing how famous he was. Even after I know how famous he was, the implication what fame Mr. Horowitz had, I didn't understand at the time too. I said, oh, he's a famous guy, you know. I just was thinking, only thing I think, if he doesn't like me, I'm already prepared. I'm already psychologically thinking, hey, life move on, it's okay, it's okay. So I played, I played, I played. I remember played some 18s, I played the Schumann and it was, I think it was, I understand soon after, he wants to gauge what it is like, the emotional bearing of my playing. It's not so much of, I think, we all assume that one can at that level, everyone can play piano very well. But I think it was much more more the kind of passion and feeling that is there after the— So I think which is, you know, to me as well, I felt that's the most important element anyway, right? I mean, and I'm sure to all of us, if you look at, you know, what a musician is, what an artist is, and let it be in literature, in painting, in fine arts, and in sound, it's how it touches you. You. And that's, I think that's the most important. Once that established, I remember I was giddy, like crazy. Oh my God, it was like, yes, great conversation. And of course, you know, I laugh a lot too because it's partly because I'm a little bit, I'm a big lover, but also this is partly also because I'm also quite neurotic in that sense. All the training from childhood. But it's so enjoyable. Every moment of it. And the sound of the piano, I thought that I can feel like that piano can do, produce anything I want. And also I was very much inspired with his great presence. It was the most generous presence I have, you know, and I could feel it was when we speak, it was speak nothing imposing, everything was very very kind and welcoming it was. And even went so far afterwards, we went almost like 12 o'clock, and I remember it was—

12 o'clock at midnight?

Midnight.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah. The session, the session lessons always run from 7:15 maybe until 12 o'clock, usually to 11:30, 12 o'clock until— yeah, it's, it's as I said, mentioned early on, it's A study, not just the study, it's a person. And here I remember, but I must not neglect to say, all this was made possible because Juliana Lopes, you know, and Horowitz's right-hand person, this wonderful, wonderful woman who exudes so much warmth. And in fact, I I have the picture here next to this one. Juliana loves this one.

Oh, wow!

Oh, wonderful!

Yes, and Juliana and I, she was the one, you know, a lot of stories being said about Mr. Horowitz period where it was a difficult period. I mean, there are quite a few different periods of Mr. Horowitz where he has mental breakdowns and it really is just so— looking back on it, it's not easy to be an artist of that caliber. Caliber. It's just, it's a process. It's nothing, it's everything is manic, you know. You can say mood swings, I can imagine. But it was the period when Mr. Schomburg told me this too, and then when he went to Japan and it was when he was completely taking so much pill for issues of, you know, Mr. Horovitz would say, I have a little bit colitis, anything a little bit something is problem. And he and then doctor easily prescribe him new medicine. So until he was becoming completely this, he cannot function properly. And Mr. Horowitz, Mr. Schomburg told me afterwards, I had that interview coming back, I thought he was like a zombie. I thought that, you know, this is finished. That Mr. Horowitz finished. And Mr. Horowitz acknowledged this, which is, this is not only just the piano, but he said, you know, you know, Juliana is like my wife. And everyone was mentioning how important Wanda is, absolutely, with no doubt, Wanda Toscanini. But it was Juliana, the one who was very dear to him. He was the one who— she was the one who tell him, maestro, today you will do this, you will do this, and I will prepare you for this clothing, everything, arrange everything to make sure Horowitz's life is just not I think, happy as much as working as well. So Juliana did was, Juliana took every, asked the doctors to make sure prescribe everything in pill, in capsule form. That was so, then all the, you know, you can't imagine all the psychotic drugs that it was being prescribed. And so he she replaced them little by little with vitamins and then break and put it in capsule and gave Mr. Horowitz not knowing and, and, and wean off the drugs. And Mr. Horowitz told me she's the one who saved my life. And, and, and, and then, then when I knew him, she only drink water, a, a, a gallon of Deer Park water next to me.

Wow.

So that kind of— and so Juliana was the one who welcomed me with such open arms when I visited the first time with his 94th. And how— and it was just— she was just— was to these days, I remember her so very fondly.

But just to tell me, how was the first lesson like? You went from, you know, even before you met, you know, Mr. Horowitz. So So that impact of that individual, that genius, is the ripple effect. It's so much, right? So then I didn't realize until I read the chapter of the biography that it became such a complicated thing toward the end. Yes, you have— it's nothing to do with you or nothing, no one. It's just the way—

it's the nature of the Horowitz, you know. I mean, uh, And Mr. Horowitz himself, I felt like has never, maestro himself never deviate from what music is, what a musician is. That is deep down is nothing but musician. But people say, you know, oh, he's, maybe he's not, sometimes he got even saying, it's like, oh, maybe he's like a child, meaning as if like he's not the capacity of thinking I totally beg to differ. This is totally far from it. He was in many ways, in many levels, he's the genius. But having said that, also Mr. Horowitz's fame and the legendary reputation was also created an aura of really almost like you're going there, you're going to see an emperor or household palace of some sort. It's run by So it's a coterie of very important people to him, you know, who always been there, you know, Tom Frost, Madame, and at that time also a period where Marie Parrahas was also seeing him.

Yes, yes, yes.

He's in there. And so the question was Mr. Horowitz through Tom Frost called me and to say, maestro wish to spend one year of his life It was the word Mr. Tom Frost told me. I was still on living on 75th Street and I was, I was on my loft apartment. I got the phone on the 5th floor. I still remember. It said, "Maestro, Eduardo's maestro wished to devote one year of his life to teach you." And I thought I was completely overwhelmed, but anyway, that's That was the premise. So it gets to the point where the studying was very, very, very serious. We had a great time. And then Wanda at all time also, Wanda Toscanini at all time, was always present majority of the time. It's partly because I feel like Judy, I will bring Judy, my wife, and Wanda will be there too. And it feels like it was like a lot of naturalizations that it's not, doesn't have to be explained, but we enjoyed the company very much. And in fact, Wanda was absolutely great in many aspects of commenting, of, you know, we bantered quite a bit and whatnot. And then Mr. Horror was very in good mood, let's put it. But a lot of this complication derived to the fact that as time moved on and, you know, that was I was already with YCA, the great organization, the Young Concert Artists, and it was Susan Wadsworth, founded by Susan Wadsworth, certainly one of the most iconic person in music, you know, and really, and then many, many musicians goes through that, and then prior to, and mine, although Jenny Vogel already was already with me, they said, you know, well, you like to do the YCS, we recommend that, you know, it's a good organization. So I joined. So YCS suggested I should do Van Cliburn. Then, and the Van Cliburn competition, I say I did it in 1984 prior to the sit-in, you know, and I did very poorly. It's partly because I was so overwhelmed. It's partly because I was not perhaps not even feel completely ready. But But I felt like everything was, every note was being scrutinized, every my appearance. It was just not natural feeling like not the way, but it's looking back, it's just, I'm not just, I was not tough enough. It's not for everyone. And then, but so when I went to Sydney 3 months later, I was thinking Sydney is so far away and that there's not much that kind of exposure. I was somewhat able to perform much better, feel much more of myself. And so that that competition really is an important element in the artist's life, in development of a career. It's important because it's a necessary evil, if we put it evil, but also it can work really well. In my case, it works really well, not in the traditional sense, but in the sense that it propels me to know many people, and many— the networking is done through Schomburg was able to mention, and then YCA is a great organization, but that's not really quite a competition. That was the period where one does suggest I should do the, you know, and I didn't want to do it, but it was at the urge of Murray Braham who kept saying that, you know, oh, you know, Eduardo should do that, you know, should do the competition. And so there was a kind of tension and horror Horowitz never liked it.

Hated it.

He hated the idea. But so I didn't know this one. And it was Juliana later on who told me towards the end, it was so much fighting going on because Horowitz doesn't believe in competition. And he thinks that Eduardo's— and also not only that, I think, you know, my playing is not a— it's been acknowledged, you know, when I played, it created a controversy. Controversy. Sometimes, you know, out of unpreparedness, that I understand. But sometimes even when I'm prepared, sometimes people don't necessarily understand. Jury can be a set of jury, it can be a different set of jury. So it's a, you know, that's just the nature of competition, but accept it as such. And but the tension, so it gets to the point where Mr. Horowitz was asking me to such you know, why can't you just take my suggestion? You go with Harold Shaw, you know, with the also the very reputable, his manager, you know, Harold Shaw could give you concerts. And then, and then I, so I told Maestro, I said, Maestro, I'm already under commitment to ICM after I finished. And then, you know, to a typical horror, what do you mean IBM? IBM? Who is this IBM? ICM. I just laughed. I said to which I said, you know, I mentioned to him, you know, ICM, you know, I know because, you know, he played with Isaac Stern. To which, as I mentioned, Isaac Stern's name, I think, oh boy, he was not happy. He thought that, you know, and to which he turned around and said, how do you think I'm not powerful? There was a very— this is a very I was quite shocked when I heard that. I just said, to which I did mention, you know, I really don't know, you know, I always believe that, you know, a career will be a career, whatever it is, you know. And then one destiny is one destiny, whatever it is, as long as you keep working is the most important. So to which I said, Maestro, but that's not the agreement we had. The agreement said, you know, I will study with you. I didn't feel I taking advantage. I could not even I didn't, could not even mention I studied with him for many, for many months. He was the one who told everyone, including Mr. Schomburg in the party, you know, you know, I met this boy, I met this boy, I met this boy. And it's so, it was, I'm completely under different, but you know, I didn't find it problematic to me. But the Kleiber was problematic for me because I was already, you know, YCA start giving me, they and, and, and, and, but, but so when I went to Clyburn, I, I, I, people don't listen to me as, as, as, as they didn't thinking it's a horror with clone, period. There's nothing. But then I must tell you this also, you know, they all forgot. There seems to people say, oh God, that's Mr. Horowitz, oh, Horowitz is horrible with that. But they forgot if I'm a horror with clone, Mr. Horowitz would be the one who will not listen to me. He would not even be spending a minute. I'm just a new— it's completely— people sometimes like to take it, you know, they don't— the outside, they don't understand. And then what it is that, you know, it's my own feel. And I felt like I'm liberated the minute I hear Friedman. I can do what I want, you know. This is what natural inclination I have. And I want to develop them. This kind of— so sometimes we get pigeonholed very much. And in fact, subsequently in my career too, you know, and in the beginning of the career, it was like, "Oh, Mr. Horowitz is here." No, later on, no. They said, "Oh, Halim has his own way." But that's the way the nature is when you work with such an overwhelming musician. But that's a small price to pay. It's not even a price at all. I consider that a complete privilege. And so when this tension comes, I think that was the breakdown. They felt like, oh, but then also it happens to be Horowitz was so happy doing the last recording. That was the period also. He would start playing all the time, playing for me all the repertory, you know, we go through and I'm would. In fact, you know, he's the one who put me the recording for the first recording I made for the transcription. It was Mr. Horowitz, you know, Edward, let's take a look at the Tchaikovsky Lullaby, you know, the Liebesleid, and the Wagner Tristan, which he did. Oh, it was just perfect, you know. He would always talk about it, and our love for Carlos Kleiber, the conductor. Oh my goodness, oh, just we had He had a stack of, at the time, laser discs, you know, and then make sure, and we always talk about how great he was telling me, wanted to take me to hear Othello with the Kleiber. And you know, he passed away, but it was like soon after, but last time I met, it was during my birthday in August. Yeah, 1989. And I still remember he came down, he put an envelope to take Judy to dinner. He said, "This is my Social Security." I thought it was— you cannot— and it was, I must tell you, it was so, so in all in all, but you know, later on when the book came out, I met Madame again, Madame, and he was in her 90s. You know, we went, I still remember we and Judy took her out, we walked, and then Juliana, we went to Charabaisse on Madison. English explaining a lot of things that, you know, what's— how it goes on. And then Madame was in the hospital when the book came out, and Juliana told me Madame knows that. So, you know, it's— in the end, we learn not to— it's not important, you know. But it was the urging of Parahias that makes it a lot of tension, that feel like as if like if I don't do outside for my own, as if like I want to take advantage advantage of the relation with the Horowitz. And that was, I felt it was a little bit painful for me. That was a very painful chapter to be said as such. Horowitz never felt that way, but it was the surrounding. Because I heard this one, Juliana Leijonh told me. And then in fact, you know, I went to when Mr. Horowitz passed away, you know, and we all know, of course, we went to Frank Campbell, I mean, and Judy, And I saw the casket is— I don't mention it too much, it is on record, I mean, you know, I saw an open casket and it was there, I see the bow tie that and then the handkerchiefs I get from Maestro. And it was from, I remember it's from Turnbürg and, you know, I got them Charvet originally, but my Maestro said, no, I don't want the sharpei, halim, I tied myself. So I get him the red one and I get the blue one, triangle pattern. I still have mine. And then it was Juliana, I was so taken. And Juliana, I was completely speechless. And both of us, I almost, you know, you weep, you know, when you see a great person like that. I mean, because even if you're not Yeah, and then Juliana mentioned to me that was the last, one of the last things, you know, my— I didn't know that when you get older you prepare everything. So what clothing you like to wear, and I know he has like 500, 600 bow ties in his room, and he said, Juliana said, Maestro wants this one. And so I, you know, I felt, yeah, It's an experience, a beautiful experience. You can't know why the reason. The only thing I can tell the reason, I was lucky to be surrounded by people who really believe in me. And also I was lucky, felt like we speak on musical level, meaning the exchange of music. Without it, there's nothing to speak of, you know, there's a way of working through music. So, and yeah, but so the subsequent lesson, of course, been tremendous. It was the understanding of learning how to use pedaling, listening to polyphonic, to the structure of the piece. And to these days, to these days, I still do I still searching for it, searching big. By doing that, I assume one gets better, you know. And I remember this one, my source said, "It's a tragedy if you stop learning." And I never stopped learning. He was so proud of me, he's like, "I never stopped learning. He still want to do this, he want to do Rahman in our first concerto." And there was a kind of this this giddiness. And I think that's a blessing also because, you know, a lot of time, you know, physically when you are getting older and whatnot. But so getting back, when I knew Mr. Horowitz, it was the Horowitz already mild, a mild version of Horowitz, the mature version. Meaning not mature, I meant that a much more kinder setting. It was no more that mercurial temperament, but temperament nevertheless is there. I must know, no, question. So the kind of— so I was— I came at the right time.

Thank you for sharing this amazing— because this is something that we cannot get it from the book, the biography, especially, you know, because that biography especially was written 20+ years ago, and this story is even before that. So I hope that you are able to, you know, sort of close this, finally close this chapter. I mean, you have already probably, but you know, just to be made this story public.

Yeah, it's like a nice closure for me too. And then, you know, and then I feel like there was a kind of unexplained, but then it was explained many years ago to me already, but I felt that it was too, you know, I didn't feel like— And then it's not the time, but I feel like this time is good to give a sort of like a bit clearer explanation and where things are. And really looking back, it's the, you know, a musician, I guess one strive all the time to really wanting to find your voice all the time. And I'm feeling like I have more confidence in what is the voice I have. But it's all nurtured by, you know, this great man in my life, you know. And Schomburg in many ways too is very influential to me in a sense in the kind of introduction to many things of his knowledge of recordings, historical recording. And so when we talk about Mr. Horowitz era, Mr. Horowitz era is actually also is a Courtauld. I can't say Courtauld is, I can say the teaching of Horowitz is like Shura of Tchaikovsky's, the Hoffman, Joseph Hoffman, you know, and the great Paderewski's also. It's this kind of individual speaking, but they also, Mr. Horowitz has something something extraordinary, which is absolutely sensuous. The sensuality in his playing is one of the most important elements, I think, that sometimes people don't look at it, but they think that the bright side, the spectacular pyrotechnic, but it's not even that. His pyrotechnic is never pyrotechnic. It was devil speaking. It was never, I never feel like it was this kind of a show.— it's just an incredible temperament burst of— but it's studied. It's all studied. Yeah. And then to which that Horowitz always give the respect for your craft, the respect for the piano, to understand what is piano capability. I think the sonority of the range of the piano is important. Yeah, to, to, to, and the passion for that instrument, so it's different, different level. Yeah, yeah.

But you know, he lived in the really golden era of piano pianists, and, and then you are able to really witness that, you know, his genius right next to, sitting right next to you. And what, and then, you know, that legacy is still carries throughout you know, obviously from the books, recordings, but also through students, his students, and including you, and then his, even his grand students, I guess.

Yes, I think this idea, I really would like, you know, very much, you know, and thankfully, you know, my position at NYU is such a great institution in a sense that you you know, we are very New York institution and it's a louse, you know. NYU, there's no, there's not possible to replicate an NYU campus anywhere on earth. That's not possible. NYU is a community of what New York people is. You can't, the campus is scattered everywhere, but that's how we live. But I remember this way, so that's getting back to when, you know, Gorodnitsky's endowed chair was established. And I was struck by the fact during the selection process, you know, I asked, so I got the positions and I was so happy. And then I was like, you know, what is expected of me? And to which Dean said, anything you want to do, anything at all. Wow. That was— there is no kind of set criteria because— so then, then unlike maybe institution like Harvard, you know, say, you know, you do it our way because it's been established many ways. NYU is very forward-looking and NYU is like, you know, do whatever you think, you know, just bring your expertise and be yourself. We're not— we don't dictate. And subsequently when I was also in the chair committees, I mean, you know, for an industrial committee once, I remember one of my really, really highly respected person who came to be in psychology and she, he mentioned to me that it was, yeah, when the reason why he picked NYU despite he was already at a high position everywhere else, he said to me, he said, because NYU is free, I can I can shape the program the way I want it and no one tell me, but it's because they trust us what to do. So it makes it everyone really thriving on their own term.

Yeah, yeah, I feel the sense. Yeah, and I also see the growth and improvement in, in terms of quality since I was there over 10 years ago and now. I mean, completely, I mean, it's a wonderful thing in a building is, and they're also building another big one. Yeah, because we got to interview Dr. Marilyn Nonken, who's the piano chair of the piano studies, and that was months ago.

She's the chair now for the MPAP too. I mean, yeah, I think in many ways, you know, I can attribute to her leadership and piano studies. Really, she was a very open, and then I think it's just, she's just an amazing, amazing colleague, and really, really, It's very open, she let everyone the same to thrive and on your own. Everyone respected for their skill and no one, nothing is dogmatic. And yeah, and so I think that's important. And the student also reflected in the student body as well, you know, we have a very close-knit student that feel like we nurtured each other, you know, no one feels, you know, but competition is important, but I mean, we have a healthy competition.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we want to keep on and on and on.

Yes, of course.

But here, so you know, the time is always the case, so you have to come back to another episode and share all the wonderful stories. And so, but we have like 2 or 3, 2 things to maybe discuss. One is the upcoming concert this coming Thursday. Well, today, yeah, so by the time we release this episode, it's 2 days from now. And so you are doing all this concert on Thursday. It's at Yamaha Artist Services. I think the tickets are all sold out. However, it's going to be live streaming from there too. So make sure we're going to share the link. Link in the description section so that a lot of people can watch at 7:30 PM Eastern time on September 22nd. So it's hosted by the New York division of the American List Society, right, being presented by, by them. And American List Society is like a group of institution where basically keeping the tradition of Franz Liszt by educating—

Yes, I believe also the Hungarian Council as well, right?

Okay.

Yes, and also it's involved as well. So yeah.

And I spoke, I actually emailed Gila Goldstein, who is in charge of the New York Division, and she will be hosting the wonderful concert. So tell us briefly about what you'll be playing and And how are you preparing?

So I, you know, I'm doing a journey through Liszt's Transcendental Etudes.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah. But it's an entire thing?

Entire 12?

Entire thing.

Oh my goodness.

The 12. I think, you know, perhaps I look at it, the most important part I think that I've I feel there's a kind of sense of an arch of stories being unfold, being told in the 12 series. And then, the Transcendental Etude is perhaps the greatest contribution, I think, to pianistic world, I think, in terms of understanding how the instrument and then the approach of prior to this, if you think of Chopin, for instance, is Chopin etude, of which I adored very much, and I always work at it too, you know. I mean, I have performed it to, you know, with certain various degree of success, let's put it that way, including the Transcendental Etude, but it's always quite humbling when you do that, you know. But always working at it. And the difference is that, you know, easily, certainly in Chopin, is that, you know, it's always addressing one issue, a particular passage, and one passage in one etude. But Chopin, Chopin as a pianist also using the facility of the hand, facility, the intricacy of the hand movement, the finger movement, and also the forearm and etc. But it was not until Liszt, I think, that really introducing a different level of sonorities. I think that here It's very important, I think, for pianists to— especially for myself— to understand what sonority is, the ability to create a dark orchestrated sound. Not necessarily dark, but meaning this kind of— and Liszt in terms of the etude, I think, is one of the greatest vehicles, I think. You know, it's also for me, you know, every time I revisit again and I found I learned learned greater, more the ability to be more efficient in creating sound. And both Chopin and Liszt, the coloristic aspect of tone as a result of the, you know, the agility of your playing from working at this, it's very apparent. And here one can quote, I think, Busoni who said, you know, it was Busoni who said, you know, it changed his outlook completely. He didn't understand it until he started redoing the entire Transcendental Etude and to become much more, felt more complete as a pianist. It was so very important one. And Busoni is no slouch of a pianist, you know, he was Mr. Horowitz, all such. It's a tragedy I didn't study with Busoni. And so just how important was Busoni is and in here. So, but the transcendental etudes, so the 12 of them, but I will start with the Libretto of Wagner. Liszt transcribed that, I mean Liszt transcribed great many operas and Wagner, including Wagner, The Townhouses, The Flying Dutchman, and whatnot. So, but I decided to do on the Liebesknot because it's one of the great work you can— it is truly, truly one of the great work. And I remember fondly, of course, you know, we were working with Mr. Horowitz on the Tristan and Isolde, you know. And so to have that challenge in the story of the The Transcendental Atheist is done in 3 versions, different versions, and then the teenage version and the middle-aged version and the last version in his 50s when he did redo this one. And to see the progress of it and how remarkable it is, actually the thematic never changed. And so he just developed the skill and then the efficiency towards the end, you know, even though the second version, which I I always try to work through it, you know, and not by no means able to bring it to perform, but there's a kind of economical usage of passage that Liz able to accomplish it more so than the second. But the second is a fascinating study, incredible studies. And then, you know, I must tell you also ability for after learning this one. And of course, you know, I've always tried to improve the strength and it's how important the left hand is. And then, you know, one of the take that from the list that it was very much what Horowitz said to me, he said, you know, to learn piano well, you should learn how to play chord well.

Chord.

Yeah, and that's— it really is so true in the Lisztian tradition. And, you know, I must tell you this, to look back and a lot of things we're talking about teaching philosophy and whatnot, we get to it that I realized that how close is actually Horowitz to Chopin in the teaching and the approach. It's when I hear Chopin's— I mean, I've read Chopin's Baren's account on how it is to— he's after. It's very much— and Liszt as well. And Liszt to me here in Transcendental Age is really portraying in one of the— not only just— it's a pinnacle, I must say it's one of the pinnacle of Liszt, the Liszt Sonata being one of them, certainly. But I think here it points at how worldly the large visions of of Liszt is and how noble, and there's noblesse oblique and the generosity of Liszt in his musicality and in the Harmonie du Soir and in the Sièges Niais, in the Paysage, the view. And virtuosic has a new term under Liszt, I think. It's not— I tried, you know, we all tried very hard. It's nice to have a hand that can move comfortably, but sometimes one has to be very careful to be— in the sense that I try at least, in my estimation, try to strive for virtuosity that is not flashy. Flashy is not a bad word, but in this sense, it's really missing the point for the Transcendental Age, and in general for Liszt anyway. Because, you know, Liszt is maybe the composer that if I looked at it and studied more and more, I realized how easy it is to veer off what his intention was. And in many ways also Liszt suffered because of it and his reputation. But if one look at the way one looked at Liszt score the way I look at Beethoven score, And it is completely legitimate. And he knew every note is not wasted. There is a kind of careful choice of where the placement, everything. In expression, expressive device too. I mean, it's done in such a way in his writing, and only the great master can— it is great mastery in shows. For instance, in the F minor, the F minor H2, it was his degree way of building up power. And it's building up the sense of level of many texture in sound. And it's really quite remarkable.

That is so beautiful. Thank you so much. Oh my God, I feel like this— I had an intense lesson. No, I understand why. For years, Yukimi was like, every time before my lesson, I get so nervous. No, I understand.

Thank you so much.

And speak, and then, you know, we would love to have you come back, and, you know, we just cannot wait for this too. But as a tradition, we always ask our guests to have some advice for some young artists that are coming up, you know, speaking of as lifelong learners that we all have to be, all have to be, you know, as pianists.

So what would you give to them? I guess the most, the basic principle being an artist is that you're constantly being uncertain and certainty is not part of the equation. So I think that uncertainty creates a lot of doubt. And the doubt, you have to direct them. I think that's the hardest things to know. I think I learned through many years of up and downs, you know. And, but one that I really stick to my mind very much was what Maestro said in the beginning, say don't envy. And it seems to be like simple, you know, of course, you know, everyone said, you know, Don't be envious. Let's not. But it is actually important because it colors the way we hear. And if we envy about something, listening to recording too, we tend to not be listening to what is the gist. We just see something that is— we felt we are inadequate. So we feel like everyone is in that. Yeah, we are inadequate in many ways. But what's important is that, you know, we struggle and we work at it and that becoming who we are and then that accomplishment through that work, it's actually your accomplishment. Only you are entitled to it. Nobody else can be like that. So I said to you, to everyone, I always say, you know, be yourself. I mean, that's, that's, it's easy to say, but the doubt is ever present. Lessons. But without doubt, there will be no learning. This is— I think so, you know. And so sometimes when we meet somebody who are very confident, it's— I always wonder whether is it confident or is it insecurity. So I don't know. Sometimes, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is close. Yeah, yeah, they're close. So, so I— and also a career, the so-called career It's so different from one another. There's not two careers alike. So there's no formulaic way of a career. But the only thing I know is that you will make a career in whatever capacity, in whatever environment you are, is by always, I think, to be curious, to be constantly learning. It's not a singular thing, you know, to be to be a pianist. If you only just piano, it's a method the most. I mean, there's other things there that created a personality, you know, they're friends, they're outside, they are great things, you know, there are many experience, you know, that understanding the craziness of the world. I mean, the beautiful things of what the world has to offer, the friendship and one— I think that in readings or whatever, that's that it becoming a worldly person, I think, is much more. And then you will find your way. It's sometimes also the persistency, I must say, the persistency. So, but then again, if we talk about persistencies, then does it mean when I studied music, I practice music, I guess I don't question It is who I am, this is the way I talk, so it is the way I speak. And so I guess if there's— so then there's no more issue, you just work. Work. Eventually, if you do good work and you accomplish something, you understand more. I think that there are other people you can share with, and it will be great if they want to be shared, you know, they want to listen to you. It would be nice.

Thank you so much.

You're welcome. Wonderful, wonderful.

Yes, so listeners, thank you for listening to us. So I just wanted before we go tell you that the American Liszt Society will be presenting the 30th anniversary concert this Thursday, September 22nd, at 7:30 PM Eastern time at the Yamaha Artist Services on 5th Avenue and 54th Street in Manhattan. Then Mr. Haleem will be performing all the list concert, and it will also be live streamed on YouTube, and then all the link is in the description section. So I hope you can attend either by in person or digitally. And thank you, Mr. Halim. But before we go, we have a really fun segment. It's called the rapid fire question. So we want to ask the really fun and silly questions. Yeah, this is the most hardest, hardest part. So get ready. I'm gonna go first. What is your comfort food?

Spicy food.

Cats or dogs?

Dog.

Yeah, I know this answer. Yes.

What is your word?

Yes. What is your word or words to live by?

Never give up.

Yes. What is the most important quality you look for in other people?

Warmth, kindness.

What is the worst quality in people you want to stay away from?

Arrogance. Yeah.

Name 3 people inspired you living with it?

Judy. And you know, my family. And yes, yes, and my dear friends.

Wow, beautiful.

Yeah, I think that was an easy one. The easy one, that's right. Great.

Name one piece in your current playlist.

Oh, in on the playlist on, on, on? Yeah.

Blackpink.

Slash.

Great.

That is so great.

Name one book title in your library.

Stendhal, The Black, The Red and the Black. The black and the red. The red and the black. Okay. There's a lot of stories about, you know, and it ended very tragically. Oh, okay.

Drama. That's really drama. Yeah, romanticism. That's romanticism right there. Yes, of course.

But nothing compared to music and romanticism.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, also.

Writing, yeah, I still, you know, But music is— it's unlimited. Yes, sure.

Okay, you get only one song or piece to listen to for the rest of your life, what is it?

I must say this always sometimes change and change and change, but I must say it was Horowitz playing the Liszt Nocturne. I must say that's how I remember him. It was, yeah, it's the most beautiful humanly possible. And I can feel that the largeness of the generosity of feeling, everything being portrayed by his playing. Yeah, that's— I would say that would be. Yeah.

All right, last question, last but not least. Music is— fill in the blank.

Music is life. Music is life. Ding ding ding ding ding!

Yeah, everyone, thank you so much. Oh my goodness, thank you. That concludes this episode of The Piano Pod with Yukimi Song with Eduardo for joining us.

Thank you.

Wonderful time and sharing your stories and insights and expertise. And you can find more information about Mr. Haleem on his website at edwardushaleem.com. We want to encourage our audience to tune in this Thursday, September 22nd at 7:30 to the YouTube livestream of his All Liszt program concert hosted by the New York chapter of the American Liszt Society. All the links are listed in the description.

Thank you to our wonderful audience and the fans for tuning in today. If you enjoyed today's episode, please rate and review it on whatever podcasting platform you're using. If you're watching us on YouTube, remember to hit the thumbs up button and be sure to subscribe to our channel. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. The links are in the description below.

If you're interested in being the guest, uh, or recommending someone to be on our show as a guest, us, you'd like to, or you'd like to sponsor or collaborate with us, shoot us an email at thepianopodnyc@gmail.com or send us a DM, a direct message via social media.

We will see you for the next episode of The Piano Pod.

Bye everyone, and thank you, Eduardo, so much.

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