120. 7 Figure Firm Owner Shares His Process For Getting More Leads | Jay Dotson

Foreign.

Thanks for being here today.

Yeah, thanks for having me excited.

Let's get into it. Let's cut the cut the shenanigans. Running a fractional CFO firm is hard. What's the biggest challenge you're facing right now?

Yeah, I think the biggest challenge that we're facing is, is just consistent leads. I mean so much of what we did at the, at, at the event this last month, the CFO Accelerator conference was so instrumental in helping us. And so we've got our prospecting operating system going at this point. But at the end of the day so much of it's still referral based. And so getting in front of people is easy, but then making sure that you're getting good qualified leads on the backend or I think is the more challenging part. Cause you just don't know when it's going to come and can be up and down. You can get three, four or five in one week and then the next week be down. So trying to navigate those ups and downs is probably the biggest, biggest hurdle.

For prosper CFO your firm. Why do you think it's so hard in your experience to get consistent quality leads compared to other industries that are out there?

Sure, I think a number of things. So for, for any sort of fractional CFO business, let's say for us for example, is the target audience. We're industry agnostic and so we haven't picked a niche yet. A lot of people would say some stuff about that, but.

For sure. But yeah, I think because of that you're working through what is qualified and what is not qualified. And then you get somebody might send you a lead and you're like, well this person certainly not qualified at this time. Maybe one day they hope to become one, but they're not. And it just depends on what rooms you're getting in and what kind of people who are able to send you leads that are going to be the right fit for your company or the right, right timing. And so I would say that making sure that the good qualified leads are coming in is, is certainly the biggest challenge that we've had.

But compared to other industries though, what do you think is unique about fractional CFOs because in a kind of a unscientific survey that, that we did recently, it, it was like 70 something percent high. 70% that was their number one challenge was getting qualified leads as an industry. Why do you think it's so hard as an industry?

I don't know. I really don't. I wish that for us I think so much of, if you're a fractional cfo, you're really good in industry, you're really good with your personal experience, you might be struggling on the marketing side, so you might be self sabotaging and say, well, maybe I'm not fit for that one. Or maybe pushing certain people away, that could be certainly one another, I think is just a challenging. In the low millions, for example, I think it's a challenging space to be selling these high ticket items at times because you're dealing with some people who have really solid growth mindsets. I'm talking about owners and prospects having really solid growth mindsets and being willing to invest that or seeing the value in it and desiring it. While other times you might be dealing with leads that are really looking to, you know, that $4,000, $5,000 ticket a month, it feels so big to them still. And so, and I understand it when you are, you know, just a 2, 3, 4 million, how that can seem that way. But it's always about encouraging them to, hey, this is the investment. And we know on the other side of this, for us, for example, we target a 4 to 4 to 10 ROI on our investment through a number of different, you know, cash flow and tax savings. So it's always trying to remind them. But as far as industry, you know, as an industry, CFOs, as a whole. Yeah, I wish I could speak to more of it, but I really don't know. I could only speak to so much of what we've experienced.

What have you done? I mean, you, you, you have a little bit of a unique background and we'll get into that in a minute. But you, you have a academic background in marketing.

I do, yeah.

What are you doing as a partner in a firm to level up your, your marketing and prospecting skills? What, what have you done that's given you a positive ROI so far?

Yeah, I, it was funny at the conference when I saw the tagline begin or be the beginner again. Right. Like, I kind of chuckled, I was like, oh, that's an interesting tagline. And by day, you know, once I see Jeb come up on the stage and he struggles with the same type of thing and, and then he had to force himself out, even though he was a, you know, I can't recall whether it's Fortune 200 or 100 or whatever, but a big deal in terms of his sales success and, you know, what he's accomplished in his career. But to then put yourself back into okay, I need to be okay. With being the absolute beginner, I'm not looking for the hack, I'm not looking for the, you know, the thing that's gonna, you know, cut the corners or do this and that. Like I'm, I just need to get back to being the beginner and I need to just go back to being at the chamber events, go to the rotary, call up people who, you know, are really massive connectors and just ask them, you know, one, how can I help you? And two, who do you need to be connected with? And so I, I try to put that back into the, you know, to where I am. I am trying to be a connector myself and putting that, you know, law of reciprocity out there in the world. Not with any agenda, but just also knowing that, that people typically want to give back to those who have given so much to them. So yeah, just calling on those contacts and being willing to show up to the next event because you just never know. Firm believer of, you know, you're one conversation away from the life you want to live or you're one podcast away from that, or you're one, you know, stage appearance away from that. And, and so you never know. So just show up and just see.

What happens when it comes to building a firm. And you guys have done a great job so far. 7 figure run rate now, right?

Thank you. Yeah.

Tactically speaking, for those that, that want to get to that seven figure run rate, tactically speaking, what have you found in your firm that works as far as getting qualified leads in the door? So if there's somebody that's like, gosh, I'd love to be at that seven figure run rate, what advice would you give to them about what works? Yeah, lead generation perspective.

Yeah, I think some of our biggest ROIs have, have come from networking groups, specifically ones that you pay for where you're going to, it's going to naturally weed out some of the lower end, less qualified where you might have some of that at chamber events. However, it's a different game when you are in Vistage or EO or some of these other networking groups where you're going to pay a good bit because you're getting people who are really serious about their business and wanting to grow. And so, you know, making connections there has been, has really been instrumental to our, the growth of our company.

One of the questions that I was just talking about internally at my firm today is, well, how do you pick the best networking events and things that are, that are paid for? So has your experience been that you need to that there's a threshold on those payments. Like yeah, you should expect to spend five grand a year, you know per networking group to get the quality or is it just really as long as it's, it's a paid thing. It, it tends to weed out the, the pretenders and it's more serious people. Do you have a way to approach deciding? I guess is. Is what I'm asking.

Yeah. So we, I wouldn't say it's any sort of scientific approach by any means but I would say naturally ones that have income or revenue thresholds are, are helpful. You know if you're going to be a part of. I think C12 has like a $2 million one. We're so close to being able to be a part of that. We'll see if they can let us in. But, but like that or EO has one. I think they're now at $2 million but they have an accelerator program where I think you have to be $500,000 in revenue in order to get there. But Vistage I think was one that was. We didn't have and forgive me on this, Cameron's more so the one who's part of that one. But that one they have a service based organization where you can if you're going to be providing next level for those who are at the 1 to 5 million and beyond you can get into their groups so that you can be able to you know be a part of their referral chain and preferred vendors, you know if you meet the criteria. So I would think that the you know certainly ones that pay if you can get in the room it definitely helps because you're going to get a more serious, a more serious owner who's looking to really grow their firm. I think a lot of times you know chambers can be a good event because you can go to meet people who are also helping your client. And so it's not always just how can I get in the same room as my client but how can I get in the same room as people who are helping my clients? So you. There can be mutually beneficial relationship had there. I know bankers love chambers. They love the food and a drink but not exclusive to bankers but insurance brokers and other. Those are the type of people I see oftentimes that at chambers and certainly you can have your, your ideal clientele there as well. But you know I tend to see the people who are really growing their business and probably more so in the target market that you want to reach in the revenue ranges who can afford to be able To. To pay for the services that you provide being in those paid programs.

I'll take a moment to just say very clearly that the opinions expressed by Jay about bankers and why they like networking, those are his opinions and not necessarily the opinions of this, of the cfo.

Hey, I like some good food too, and company, so it's all good.

Would you consider yourself an introvert or an extrovert?

Certainly an extrovert. Yeah. I love people.

You love people. One of the things that I think is important to remember about going to networking events is you have to, like, network or they don't pay off. What tips do you have for people when it comes to making the most of the time? And also now we're talking about money. Invest in those groups. How can you. What's your approach when you walk into a given event on what you're going to do and how do you navigate the conversations?

I mean, even as an extrovert, it is still so uncomfortable. Like, it's never going to not feel that way. So you just have to get over yourself. Everybody else is there to do it as well. And so when you go in with the mindset of this was a complete waste of time. If I don't start talking to somebody, it starts. You know, it feels uncomfortable, I think, when you're accountable to not just yourself in that too. Like, thankfully, I've got a great business partner in Cameron, and like, I would feel so silly if I took time out of my day to. To go to the chamber event or whatever. Um, and I just got uncomfortable. I didn't talk to anybody. And I went back and said when he asked, hey, how did it go? And I'm, well, I kind of shied out and the food was good, but, like, I kind of got nervous. And we'll see next time. Like, there's only so many times before it's going to be like, all right, what's going on? Like, you've got to force yourself. I would say even if you don't have a partner, like being accountable to somebody to say, hey, this is my intention. This is what I've got going on. And. And I know for me to be the. The firm owner that I want to be, I know that I've got to go and bring in clients. And so that's going to put me in some really uncomfortable positions. But I'm really would like for your help in this. I mean, my spouse, I would ask this of her. I haven't, because I have Cameron, but. But I would. I would certainly ask my spouse of this to say, hey, ask me how many people I talk to and how many business cards I got or how many what have you, you know, connections I made through the process. Because, you know, if it's just left up to me and just left up to us, we will often choose comfort. And so making sure that we put, you know, enough roadblocks in our way that that force us to not choose comfort and to choose the hard thing because we know that the desired life is on the the other side of doing the hard thing and becoming uncomfortable.

So Putting intentional accountability 100% or some somewhere in there. What do you say though you're, you're at the, the chamber event or the BNI or whatever. What do you say? Because I know there's a lot of people that the thoughts daunting to them because they, they can't get past that first question. What do I even say? How do you approach initiating a conversation?

I am often thinking of the, the quote that says I don't know who did it, but I think I've heard you say it as well. But be interested instead of interesting. And always just going in with how can I learn more about this person? Right. And that's like a tenet of I believe it's highly. The 7 Habits of Highly effective people or no how to win friends and influence people I think is what that is. And so always making sure that, you know, people love to talk about themselves. So it's like I think psychology. Their brain is going haywire. It's going wild whenever they're talking about themselves. And so just be interested in what you know, who they are. Don't go with your sales pitch. Don't go with, you know, how you, you're going in with like a self motivation of how what can I gain from them? But really go in just being really interested in who they are, what's their background, how do they serve their clients. And people will ask in return they desire. It is natural for them to after they've talked about themselves for a time to ask hey, what do you do? And I found that they'll, you know, the longer you wait, the bigger the ask later on. So don't try to go in for the kill, you know, but if you found that they are, you know, somebody that you know could benefit in a mutual relationship, you know, of whether sharing clients or referrals or what have you, you could then ask them at the end, well, let me get your phone number. I don't, I'm not into business cards. I think you're not either.

I'm not.

But let's go ahead and let me get your phone number so that I retain control of the relationship here and let me reach out so that we can set a time, get it on the calendar to go get coffee or go grab a bite to eat or whatever and just see how we can, how we might be able to work together. I find that that's been really, really helpful.

One of the bits of feedback that I received from people is they've gotten into this process. They're like, okay, I'm going to the events and I'm getting the number and I'm having the follow on conversation. But I'm uncomfortable going for the ask. At some point, you know, maybe like in a dating relationship where you're, you know, your friends, you don't want to get friend zones.

Sure.

By the referral partner.

Sure.

To speak. How do you find ways to ask for, you know, hey, who comes to mind that might need my services? How do you approach that?

Yeah, I mean, at some point it's. If you're just. If it never comes up, like, it could probably get awkward, but that's fine. Again, you've got to put yourself out there in an uncomfortable position. The worst that they can always say is no. And so they already aren't doing business with you right now. So no harm, no foul if they say no. But I would say that I always like, you know, if the conversation's going well and it makes sense if it's a potential referral partner. I've got, and let's take bankers for a second where I've been doing some banking presentations where maybe I've got a particular contact that I've met with over coffee or have a relationship with. Bank institutions typically have whether lunch and learns or they'll have meetings for all of the relationship managers to come together. And so what I have found is they're oftentimes looking for people to present to upskill their team to give them a good understanding of what's happening in the market. Maybe some, you know, like I said, mutually beneficial things where especially with fractional CFOs, we're going to come in and be able to help them get, you know, help their clients get better funding, get their deals done where they can get loans. But also if you can come in and create cash flow in the business, you're creating more deposits for them. So. But with them, I would typically ask them, hey, I've got, I've been putting together a presentation that I've made to a number of banks. Would it be of interest to you to, you know, have me come and speak to let you know like kind of what we do and, and how we make the lives of bankers easier?

One of the things that I hear a lot is like I'm reluctant to work with bankers is an example because I don't have any leads to tee up to them.

Sure.

Why would they want to tee a lead up for me? And I think you were kind of hinting to it around bankers. What's in it for them? Yeah, because the truth is maybe once every couple of years you have somebody that you could tee up for them.

Yeah.

So what's in it for a banker is an example to tee up a lead for you.

Yeah. So I, like I said that if we can come in and create cash flow in, in their business, in their clients business, that's going to create greater deposits. And especially in this economy, deposits are running a premium. So that's one, two. We can come in and help, help get funding for businesses so where their client may not have really solid financials both historically and no clear picture of the future. We're able to come in and create, you know, the cash flow forecast and be able to provide some, some necessary documentation, narrative creation, things like that that could really help, you know, move the, you know, for a business who needs funding, move it to the next stage for them to be able to feel really comfortable with taking their credit request or their opportunity memo or whatever it is and putting it on the credit team's desk. And so we'd put together a whole package that would be able to, you know, highlight, you know, the needs for the loan and all the rest. So essentially being, being able to fast track the, the process for them. And I've even had bankers look at me and say, well, you're pretty much doing my job for me. It's like, well, yeah, that's, we're here to help. That is our goal. And especially if it's, you know, for a mutual client, we want to be able to serve them well and we're feel like we're being a really good partner to you. And it helps us kind of own the narrative because oftentimes they'll, when you don't have the full story, they'll have to come, it'll take longer. One and two. They'll have to kind of try to fill the gaps with as much as they know. Well, if they're got somebody in there who knows what they're doing, knows where the business has Been understands the need for it, the risk associated with it, how you're going to mitigate it, all the rest to be able to walk up to them, have the documentation, you're able to own the narrative and be able to fast track, you know, that process a little bit better. So that's certainly advantageous for them as well.

I think it's brilliant because a lot of times when we think of what's in it for them, you know, we are. Our mind goes to the easy answer of if I don't have a lead to give them, then they don't want to give me a lead. But I think the brilliance in it is well no, we don't have a lead for them, but we're going to increase the probability that their clients get pushed through and get approved.

That's right.

We're going to shorten the amount of time that it takes for that process to happen. We are going to free up their time so that they're like where you said like oh, you're doing my job for me. If we're doing that for them then they're out doing more business development and getting more applications process. So it's not necessarily an apples to apples like lead for lead need symbiosis to the relationship. There's other ways that we can help and I think sometimes we've got to get out of break that mold or that idea that it's got to be a tit for tat. There's other ways that, that we can add value and that doesn't just hold true for bankers. There's right with I love the EOs, implementers or coaches that might be out there or I mean pick, pick your thing in, in the industry. Any architects even, you know, if like we work with the construction industry. Well, why would an architect want a TSF business? Well, if we're able to increase budgets or increase cash flow, all those things that can increase revenue, profitability, client base. For an architect for an example, it doesn't have to be a lead for lead. And I think we've got to get as an industry a little bit more creative on understanding the value we bring not just to our clients but also to those referral partners as well so that we can go out and market ourselves to referral partners better.

Yeah, no, I agree with that. Absolutely. And it isn't always one for one. Right. Like you'd love it to be that way but you know that it's not always going to be that way. But I think even more so than that, like People want to refer their friends, their colleagues, their clients to people that they know that they can trust, are going to take care of them and do a good job. And so even if it isn't the tit for tat kind of relationship, like, just being a solid resource for people will always pay dividends. And so I even like to tell people, like literally anything that just as I end some of my, like, prospecting calls and working with people like, how can I help you? And who do you need to be connected with? It's like people can, I mean, can feel that the genuineness that you have to you. And like, I always want to be somebody that's connecting somebody. Whether I get anything for it or not is immaterial to me. So I think that there's probably a lot of other people out there that are looking to, you know, it might not always be front of mind for them, but, you know, when that thing comes up to have your name, you know, be something that they can draw on, I think it'd be really, really great. So I think it's not always, you know, it's not always that tit for tat relationship. And, and that's okay. Especially in the banking world where it's, I mean, bank. Moving banks is hard. Trying to get your clients to move banks can be really challenging. But, you know, when you have really good relationships, you know, when that comes up, I'd be happy to send it back. Right. Like, so anyway, how do you do.

That specifically develop that trust that, hey, Jay's just a guy that's here trying to help and communicate that, build that trust with, with a banker or whoever it might be. What are, what are some ways that you do that? Because I do. I agree. You do a great job of it. What do you do?

Yeah, I try to keep up with most everybody that I think, you know, is, you know, like being able to keep a registry or a catalog or bnr CRM. Let's just use those words of people that I try to keep up with. And so I know when it's been too long for me that I haven't caught up with some person, like those key relationships, I'll. I'll get on, you know, email or text and I'll send them something or want to go grab lunch with them just to like, keep the relationship going. Because that's our biggest. That's our biggest thing is lead sourcing from referrals. So for us, it's everything. So I have to do it. And I think it's the biggest Win and also just the gaining trust with people as time goes on with relationships. You see, you're not just always hounding me for a lead or you're not just always hounding me for my network or my this or my that. Like, I think that that just shows that I'm. You're willing to show up and just talk about them and just be willing to be there for them, know what they're going through and just be human like that. I think that's really what it comes down to is everybody's being sold so much. Like, we're all just a little bit tired of being sold. Like, just be human and care. Like, don't be in it for yourself. Don't be in it to kill all the time. Take advantage whenever those, those opportunities present themselves. But really, it's okay if you, you had meetings with, you know, key relationships and, you know, it didn't result in three immediate leads. Like, that stuff takes time and we talk about in the, in elite a good bit. But like, anytime you have to get this prospecting wheel turning again like that, you know that's going to be at least 60 to 90 days before you see. Start seeing fruits of that. And so know that, you know, for sometimes if you keep that flywheel going, this conversation might be the conversation that leads to one, it might also not be the one that leads to it, but you might get something in three months from now and says, hey, you know, I was just thinking about you and I had this person come up, I'd love to introduce you to it. And you just gotta be okay with, sometimes that's gonna be a hit and sometimes it's not. But that's why it's so important to not get up and down with whatever happens at that meeting or this or that, but that you just make the goal showing up and to care for people and you let the rest, you know, kind of work itself out. And I think that's been really beneficial.

I think to do that at scale, or at least the scale that we're at right now, it takes a lot of activity week in and week out, and I think maybe more activity than somebody newer might give it credit for.

Yes.

In a given week, how many relationships, conversations would you say you target to have between following up on text messages or phone calls or zooms or coffees or lunches? Do you have a target roughly that you look at to say, like, I know I need to do this much in order to get this many leads over time?

I wish it's. I don't know that we've had enough. We have small, smaller sample size than I would prefer to really understand my metrics at that level. I'll say we're trying. We're on eos, and our EOS scorecard right now is a hot mess. I find that that has been.

One of the harder things is because it is constantly changing. And each week we are talking about, well, what's the right thing? Is it business development conversations? Is it LinkedIn? Is it LinkedIn connection request? Is it. I, you know, called these. This amount of people each week, you know, so it's something that's constantly changing for us. But I think we're getting more and more dialed in. I would say, like, this past week was a good example of a week that I was. I was proud of. And I think that it. That yielded about. It was like 10 or 12, like, actual solid conversations that some were, you know, prospects like, or actual leads, others were, you know, people that I'm just trying to connect with and just trying to meet a whole lot of people. And so I've got targets where I'd like to do at least one, if not two. If I could get to two, I'd be really happy with that. But at least one networking event a week and then doing probably about 10 really solid conversations with people.

What's a conversation?

So that would be.

Does that count DMs, or is that like.

No, no, not. I wouldn't say DMS on that because I think. And I'm happy if that happens, but certainly I'm trying to get people. The biggest thing for us is, I think Jeb says it in his book, if you're a high ticket, high trust item, the number one thing you can do is get people to an appointment or get them to a meeting. And so it was various different things all throughout the week where they're like. I was on a podcast earlier this week, and that podcast led to an additional conversation, which then led to potential, you know, referral partnership. I was at a networking event on Friday morning, and that led to an additional two conversations that were outside of it. And so there's just a number of different things and different fronts on which I'm attacking it. I don't think there's any silver bullet in any of this. And the best approach is just try. Just be willing to put yourself out there and try to. And so we're even doing, you know, a little bit of cold calling here and there, you know, for. For really targeted folks. We're not trying to we're not necessarily trying to just get a list and then call everybody on that list. We're being very strategic in our, in our reach outs on that front, but we're just trying a bunch of stuff and we're just seeing what works. And, and so, yeah, I want to.

Go back to that number, though, yet. 10 to 12 meaningful conversations.

Meaningful conversations. Yeah.

Last month?

No, no, last week.

Last week.

Yeah.

Right. That's. That' a good week. It's a good week. But I think that, and I even lose track or lose sight of this sometimes myself. The, the amount of activity that the top 1% or top 10% of firms are doing in business development is on. I mean, you're an order of magnitude more, because I know there's people listening to this that haven't had 10 or 12 quality conversations in the last quarter. And, and we get frustrated or down on ourselves. It's like, gosh, why, why isn't this working? I remember, I think it was an Alex Hermosi video or training or in one of his books where he was talking about one of his mentors when he was doing the gym stuff, told him like, yeah, you got to go put flyers in people's windshields and, you know, in order to develop all this traffic. And so he went out and he did it and he came back and he was like, you know, I did it and it just didn't work. And the guy said, well, how many flyers did you put out? And he said, 500. And he said 500 yesterday. And he was like, no, last month I did 500. He's like, Brother, we do 500 before lunch on a day. You know, if you want to be at our level, you know, you've got a 10x or 100x, the, the amount of activity that you're doing to, to get the ultimate results. I, I think. And again, I'm as guilty as anybody. I lose track of that sometime. In fact, we, we were talking this morning because I had been on this one coffee a day on Wednesdays and Fridays with people, and I'm like, or, or zoom coffee or zoom every Wednesday or Friday morning. And I'm like, no, we need to have a coffee every Wednesday and Friday and a lunch every Wednesday and Friday. And we need to have some zoom calls sprinkled in there as well, because we're just not, we're not getting the velocity that we want either.

Yeah.

And, you know, it's all working, but I mean, we have ambitious growth targets, you know, and, and so I would just encourage you. Like, if you're listening to this and you're frustrated by your results, it's probably not that you're doing a bad job, you're just not getting enough at bats. Like, you've got to get to the.

Gotta get a lot.

10 times more than you are now.