35. Critical Advice on Becoming a Full Time Fractional CFO

Hey there.

My name is Michael King. Welcome back to the Connected Accountant where I talk about starting, scaling and optimizing fractional CFO services.

In addition to running the Connected Accountant, I also run a high ticket mastermind called the CFO Mastermind. In the CFO Mastermind, I work side by side with hand selected other fractional CFOs that are trying to scale their firms to multiple six figures and seven figures. Today's a very special day because I just graduated my first student, Shannon Weinstein from the program. When Shannon and I first started working together a little over a year ago, she was just doing the CFO thing as a side hustle. She had a job in corporate America where she was making multiple six figures. She had all the healthcare and the pto. She had a large team. She was really just kind of doing the CFO thing in her free time. Over the year of working together, Shannon's been able to leave her corporate job and, and not just meet, but far exceed the salary she was making when she worked in corporate America. Not only that, Shannon's been able to create jobs and hire an amazing team of people around her. Today I'm sitting down with Shannon and we're talking through some of the lessons that she's learned, some of the mindset shifts that she's had, some of the mistakes that she's made on her journey from part time side hustle CFO to a thriving CFO CEO running her own firm. So without further ado, let's go to the conversation I had with Shannon Weinstein.

Shannon, welcome to the Connected Accountant. How are you today?

I'm doing great, Mike. Thanks for having me on.

This is such an exciting episode. I've literally never had anyone on the Connected Accountant before. You're my first guest and so I'm really nervous.

I can imagine because I'm very intimidating.

You are very intimidating. So you're the CEO of FitNantel Solutions. Tell me a little bit about you and financial and what you guys do.

So I've been a CPA since 2009. I'm like born a CPA basically. And I started my practice in 2019 and decided to build it while I was working full time at other companies. And what we do is we help digital entrepreneurs keep more of what they earn.

What got you thinking about starting your own firm? Because you came from corporate America, right? What, what was the what? Why did you decide you wanted to leave corporate America and start your own firm?

So I, I worked in Big four for about seven years. I worked in audit I worked in advisory. I even worked in sales at a software company. I worked in internal audit. I've. I feel like I've seen everything. And I decided that I just knew that I wanted to serve smaller business owners. I wanted to actually impact clients, and I wanted to pick my client roster because I was really tired of to frankly, kiss ass to the. The chain of manager to partner, and have to like, schmooze my way to the top, sell my way to the top. And then even when I got there, I saw how stressed out these people were, and I said, it doesn't really stop. Like, you don't get a cushy life as a partner. I had a friend who became a freshman partner and, and the way they just like, beat them up verbally, emotionally, mentally. I said, you know what?

It.

If that is the, that is the peak, I just realized, like, I'm. I'm done climbing this hard for that type of peak. So I said, I really want to go off my own and do things my way. Which I didn't agree with how a lot of the companies I worked with were running. So I just knew, I think I can do this better and in a better way. That fits me.

What were those things that, when you say that you wanted to do it your way, or there's things that you didn't agree with, what were those things that you didn't really agree with, or what were those things that weren't Shannon's way?

Like the politics. So the, the, the idea that as long as we're looking busy, we're doing work, the idea that we're spending hours equals we're doing work, or we're adding value because of time we're spending and the effort we're putting forth as opposed to the results we were getting. So we were all about. In consulting, it was all about we need to justify our presence. And I'm like, don't have to justify your presence if you're getting done. So I, I didn't really. I. I was not really that. That kind of superficial way of working. I said, you know what? I would rather just get less done or get as much done in less time and go home instead of feeling like I had to work till 7 because the senior was still there and the partner was still sitting there, and, well, you can't leave before the partner leaves. Like, all of those kind of silly, unsung rules that were in place at Big four that I just couldn't really understand, like, why are we still doing this?

I think that it's not just a big four thing. I think that just the traditional business model, even still today, you see a lot of that. Before I got into this industry, I worked in manufacturing, and it was the same thing. You finish your job up, but your boss is still there. And it's a bad look when it comes time for performance reviews. I haven't seen you around. When I get to work, I expect everyone to be here before me. And when I leave, I expect everybody to still be here. And I just think that, that that business model is dying. And the companies that don't embrace that change, I think we're gonna. They're gonna see that they have an exodus of talent and it's gonna ultimately end up killing them. But when, when you, you. When you and I started working together. So I. I guess I should have prefaced with this. So you, you went through the CFO mastermind. You're the first one in. First graduate after 12 months. And let me say, you, awesome job, by the way. Like, you're.

Thank you.

Yeah, your growth over that year was tremendous. But when we first started working together, you weren't full time in financial. You still had one foot in the door at corporate, one foot in the door at financial. Why did you start that way?

Because. Because of a mortgage. As I told you in the, in your questions before. So I like, you can't. So I'm very. I'm not risk averse, but I'm. I measured risk. So I'm like, okay, I know I want to do this thing. I need to prove it works. I need to prove that it works. I need to prove that it's worthwhile for me to make this jump out of a secure, steady cash flow. Because by the time I was talking about having my own practice, I was making a good amount of money as an associate director in a Fortune 50 company. And I had a team of nine people. So I was like, you know that as you elevate in your career, it becomes harder to let that go because you're used to a lifestyle. You're used to income, you're used to having that cash flow. And then when that gets cut off, it hurts because you're like, oh, my God. I used to get this instant feedback, this instant reward for the job I was doing, and now it's not guaranteed. And my husband was also a business owner, so he was supposed to be like the risky income. I was supposed to be the steady income. And because he was having health issues and other things going on, I felt like, I can't jump off a cliff basically and wait, it wasn't going to work that way. We needed that steady income in order to build our lives together so I could leave. And what that looked like for me was staying in that job. And I called it the 7 to 10. I would do 7am to 10am and then 7pm to 10pm financial and then during the day whenever I had pockets of time when I wasn't in meetings. But I found myself sitting here at my desk and I was toggling between two laptops every half an hour was like I was in a different business. My brain was completely fried. And I wasn't a lack of time management. It was just a. This is the demands that I have right now is I have to do this first and then I can build financial on the side. And I've been building it for, you know, before we work together. I was building it for two years and it had just gotten to the point where I knew I hit a breaking point where we're going to hit tax season. And I said, I cannot do both. I am burning out. I am completely toasted. I need to make a call here. I either shut down financial or I have to leave my job. Like I hit that ultimatum and I had to talk to my husband about that.

It's interesting that you looped your husband in because I think that's a missed opportunity for a lot of people. We try to make these kind of decisions in silos. Was that a hard conversation to have and how did you approach it?

I thought it was going to be, but then I talked to you. You actually coached me through it. And I think what when you zoom out and you go like data and numbers don't lie. And we know this as accountants. So I actually put together like a cash flow forecast for our family in a sense. And I looked at my business and I said, this is how much money my business would have to make to replace my income or at least feel like we could cover everything and that we were going to be okay. We had a good parachute, right? So, um, I showed it to my husband and I said, if you let me go all in on this, and this is the thing too is it's not always all or nothing. We actually had. I actually had like a challenge and I said, give me five months. It was January, so I said give me till June. If I can't prove to you that this is sustainable, this is self sustaining and this is going to be my full time thing. If I can't prove that to you, By June, I will go find another job. But this isn't the job I need right now. And I need to find something that's more part time, more flexible, and maybe less income so I can balance this. And, and the challenge was accepted. My, my husband basically said, so when's your last day? Go ahead and give the notice. And he knew that I had hit that point. We had had that conversation a few times, but it was, it was always, can you wait a little bit longer? Can you wait till June? Can you wait till June? And I just hit a point where I said I can't, you know, and he trusted me, which I really appreciate.

Yeah, I think there's, there's a couple of key components there that I want to make sure that anybody listening to this doesn't gloss over.

There are a lot of feels that come up, you know, with having those kinds of conversations because of risk and mortgages and all the things. But for me, like, the successful components of those conversations are approaching it like, I haven't decided and now I'm telling you what's going to happen. Let them be involved. Let them feel like they're involved in the decision making process. Number two is showing the data, right? Having that cash flow forecast kind of written out where they can see it. Because a lot of times we're so involved in the day to day, we know all of it in our head and like, kind of where we're going and where we're trending. The reality is that most cases, they're not. So they need to see what we kind of intuitively know on paper. And the third component that I think is important is putting that date on it where it's like, hey, we're going to try this for like, in your case, five months. And if I haven't been able to replace my income in five months, then I'll go back and find another job. I think, like, when you mix all three of those together, the likelihood of that being a positive conversation is exponentially better. And I can also say, as somebody that has done this wrong in the past, in my own relationships, when you don't have the buy in of your spouse, it makes entrepreneurship just exponentially harder. Entrepreneurship is already hard. Like starting a business, you know, a CFO firm or an accounting firm, it's already hard. And when you don't have the support of your spouse in that, it just, it makes it almost impossible to do that. So I'm really encouraged that you had that conversation with your husband and then it went well.

Yeah.

Okay, so you finally made the break early in 2022. Went all in.

What did you learn once you, once you were no longer just kind of one foot in, one foot out, what happened?

So I, I was, I was a pretty strong action taker. Like, I was rapidly implementing whatever I was learning from any source, like trying to get the results as fast as possible because I knew that I had less time in a day, so I maximize that time. Now, did that burn me out? Absolutely. But, but I also realized that once I. The first thing I did and what I learned is like, when you have control over your calendar, like you have complete control over your calendar. It's amazing. The first thing I did was draft like an Excel spreadsheet of my time blocks of how I was going to dedicate my energy. Because what I realized was that it doesn't matter how much time you have. It's about learning when your energy is at its peak and when it's at its valley so that you can figure out what tasks to slot certain places and to hold yourself accountable. It was much harder to hold myself accountable because I was so tired from the schedule I had. And I was so used to working in those pockets of like 7 to 10, 7 to 10 that I would get these like, second wins at night and work like crazy and I would get up in the morning and not move my body and I would go right to work. And I, I was still in that, like, routine. And I think one of the first things I learned was like, you, you have to get yourself out of routine. Like, you have to be in, take control of your calendar and, and really stick to it and keep the promises to yourself that you're going to do those things?

Have you found that now that you've been doing this for a while and you have control of your calendar, have you found that your energy peaks and valleys change or have they been pretty, are they pretty consistent?

I've realized that, that I can control them to some extent. So, like, I, I am naturally more productive in the morning. So it's actually, it's funny because I would put a lot of my work in the afternoon because I wanted to go, like, do other stuff in the morning when I was more awake and lively. And then I realized, like, that's when I should be on calls, actually, that's when I should be teaching. That's when I should be. So it's actually about managing your energy in terms of what you want to do, but also how you best show up because you don't want to miss the Opportunity to, to present well, if you're at your energy peak. So even though it may seem draining at first glance to say like, I'm gonna go do a bunch of podcast episodes that morning, it's like, well, isn't that draining? And I say, well, it's the best thing to do when you have a full cup because then you can show up and then you can create content and then that will give you dividends, you know, beyond that. So I think that it's about really designing what you're doing during those peaks and valleys and understanding that it's okay to have the valleys, like it's okay to take a break. And you know, I actually had to unwire my brain. So like any other accountant CPAs, busy season survivors listening know that like to leave at like 10am to go grab groceries or to go run an errand or something feels guilty like, oh, this is weird. Like it's the middle of the day and I'm actually not at a desk. It's it. I think especially before COVID this would have been unheard of. So I had to get used to that too. Like the, the instinctive feeling that I'm doing something that's like bad, like I'm skipping school.

So time management and energy management or energy awareness are really important. Did you have any other, any other kind of mindset related things that you've learned since you've gone full time?

Yeah, it was definitely, I mean like if you think about mindset and breakthroughs, it was confidence around what I offered and the fact that I could show up and command the price that I wanted. And I think that it was funny because I felt a limitation because I was only working those, you know, X hours a day because I had the full time job. Once I went all in, I realized I have all this energy to pour into my clients and that is worth more. So I was, I talked about this with you that I feel like I can't charge that price because I'm only working X hours a day and I don't want to disappoint these people if I can't get it all done. If I'm going to add pressure to myself by charging a price and setting expectations too high. So once I went all in, that excuse was gone. So whether it was an excuse, a story, whatever, it was gone at that point and I no longer could, could use it as a crutch. So now it was a matter of, oh, now I really have to unpack what my service is worth in the eyes of My client, and not based on my effort, which was a huge paradigm shift I had to go through.

Any tips for people that are struggling with that? Because honestly, I would say that's in one of the top two or three issues that I see holding back growth for. I mean, there's over 100 people in the connected account now, and I would say the vast majority struggle with that. I actually just had a conversation in the DMs this morning with somebody who was telling you, we were talking about pricing and he said, as I think about moving my pricing up, I've got to figure out what more I can add because I've got to make sure that it's worth it for them.

Yes, that was me.

That was you.

That was me too.

It was me for years. What have you found to be successful in helping you move away from that?

To be honest, I, I really, I was listening to what you were telling me, but then I was also seeing it in my own life, in the customer's eyes. So programs are being sold to me. So this actually happened where I was like, well, if, if someone sold me like a fitness program, right? 12 week fitness program, all this stuff, I bought into some of these things like coaching, masterminds, whatever. And I was so annoyed. The more crap they gave us, like, I would get like, annoyed with like another fricking course. Another, like another, I have to go watch another video, I gotta go do this other thing. And I go, I, I thought this was supposed to save me time. And I, and don't, don't get me wrong, they're all valuable. But when you start putting too much work on the customer, where I feel like I'm doing all the work and this is just adding to my pressure, my stress and my anxiety because I feel behind or because I like. What you don't realize is that clients don't really want to talk to you that often. And that's okay. Like, they, they will as long as they know. This is what I've, I fully realized. And I, it's from talking to my clients and from being on the other side of services where I go, all, all they need to know is you're there. All they need to know is that you are there. You are going to respond when they need you, but you have to let them direct the cadence of talking to you and then direct what they need from you. Because instead of you assuming their expectations, you can just ask them, like, you can actually say, how often do you want me to contact you? Are you bigger on email communication? Are you bigger on texting? Are you. You know, do you like to be in the loop on stuff, even if there's no action required of you, or do you only want to know when you have an action needed? Those conversations are gold because then, you know, okay, don't bother that person. They don't want to be bothered, and they just want to know when the next meeting is going to be and make sure it's on task. Like, you have to understand your clients, because for some people, it's way higher value if you give them less homework, less stress, less things to think about, and you just tell them what you need. And there are folks who told me that the biggest value. I asked this question. I said, what is the biggest value you perceive from my service? And they said, you're. I feel taken care of because you're always there. I feel taken care of because you're always there. And that doesn't mean I'm always on call. I'm always available. I'm always, you know, I respond pretty quickly to things. But it was. It was a statement of, I know that if something comes up that, like, I. You're on it. Like, you're reliable, you're trustworthy, and that is what you're selling. And I did, like, it finally clicked this past year that I'm selling a trustworthy service. And the problem I solve is actually not some perceived lack of clarity with their numbers. I'm solving whatever deficiency in confidence they have or confusion they have or lack of trust they have, either from a past accountant or a past experience or a lack of support. What I realized was I was turning into more of a coach than a cpa. And that was actually really fun to kind of transform into.

That's an interesting shift in the way you perceive yourself, and I identify with that as well.

On.

On the CFO services, I said a lot, like, you're more of a coach than you are anything else. Yeah, the number stuff is important in. In the forecast and the projections and the goal setting, and that's all important. But one of the. One of the things that you said that I've latched onto and made my own over the last year was it's more about transformation than transaction. And that transformation comes from helping them think differently and make decisions differently. And so that's kind of where a coach comes in. The coach is that person that motivates and inspires you to think differently, to take different action, to push you a lot of times into that uncomfortable kind of area. And so I think, as CFOs. That's kind of a big part of the job. It's not just about showing them charts and graphs and spreadsheets and impressive Excel formulas. It's really changing, transforming the way they think.

Yeah. And it makes you irreplaceable because then what happens is the client will go, I can't do this without Shannon. They see you as part of the team. That's another one of my core values. We are part of the team. So if, you know, something goes sideways, like, we're. We'll help you. You know what I mean? Like, we'll be there to help support you. And my clients feel that as opposed to the, you know, the transactional, the paperwork, the compliance work, they don't feel that connection to you. And that's why, honestly, a lot of accountants are pissed off with their clients because the clients don't treat them like a member of the team. They treat them as a service provider, as a, you know, blank inbox. It goes both ways. It's like relationships. My. My whole header on my website says, you deserve better than an April 15th one night stand. We are here, like, we're here for a relationship. And that resonates with people because that's exactly what business owners want. And I think that's what I finally tuned into was, oh, that is what we do here. That's what we overcome.

I love it. I love it. You. You. You've been in TCA since the beginning, right? You were. You were like the first person in there. Like I said before, we've got over 100 now. When you look at people that are just getting started, like, where. Where you were a year, a year and a half ago, what do you see is like the. The most common thing, that's that they're doing wrong or that's holding them back from achieving some of the success you've been able to realize.

I'd say just taking action and doing the stuff that you're learning. So in making it your own, because I think that if you take it too literally, like, you know, in the connected accountant especially, and in the mastermind, you know, you teach, you and Carlos do a great job of explaining here's how we do it and why we do it our way, and basically hand that over to us and we can take it and say, okay, that makes sense, but I'm going to do it this way. And there's no wrong answer.

I'd say the ability for you to have context, to adapt what you're learning and to implement it in Your way. Because I don't think that. I think people either take it literally and go, that's not going to work for me. And then they stop or they just don't take action on it. Realizing that there's going to be an outcome that will be on the other side of it or what the bigger picture is. Because everything is micro actions and then you get big results. It's not like one particular thing changed my whole practice. Like, I mean, implementing GCON was pretty big, but like, once that was, once these like little operational things are tackled, it just opens up so much potential. Like using, using the Mastermind for me as a vehicle to implement SOPs and create processes and document. I finally got around to doing all of that and a really detailed level and adopting a lot of the processes that, that you guys used. Making it my own, documenting it. And then that enabled me to hire because I now had processes to install them into. So it was kind of that like, next domino. Like, you have to know that this means I can hire soon and then, but I need to do this first. And having a plan and having that kind of like outlook of a year from now, this is what I want my practice to look like. But here's what I have to do today, tomorrow, next week, and next month to get there. And that's what the Mastermind really helped me with. And it was, I mean, to be honest, I was just like absorbing everything you were saying and saying, okay, gonna go do that tomorrow. You know, literally gonna do that right now.

That propensity for action is the single biggest differentiator between people that have, okay, success in the program and the people that are just killing it, like you. You've got to take action. But there's a couple things you said that I want to unpack in there because I think they're really important. One is the micro actions lead to big results. I think that if you want to have a sustainable, like, sustained success, a sustainable firm, then you've got to quit looking for hacks. You've got to quit looking or expecting there to be this one new framework or this one process or this one, you know, cheeky sales thing that you can say on social media. That's going to be all the difference for you. This, this is a marathon or maybe even like an ultra marathon, not a sprint. And so it's just that commitment to those small actions, that 1% better every day. And just know that in aggregate it's going to lead to those, those big results.

The other one that I think is really important that you said is like, recognize that it's not. It's not about, like, this is the way to do it. And I know that that's hard for those of us that come from the numbers mindset. You know, in the accounting world, we have a propensity to compliance. We want. The thing that we just kind of like, plug and chug, right?

Like, we want science. We want science, but it's an art. And that's the thing. It's. We want it to be a science where, like, A plus B equals C. And we want that level of confidence and that level of certainty. But it's not. It's like, draw this however you want to, right? And then. And we all get overwhelmed because we're like, we're not, you know, we're not. We're not typically creative. We're not typically think outside the box type of people. So in. Even if you are, you've been trained and accustomed to a box that you've been told to stay in for so long that it's just part of your behavior. So it is a paradigm shift to get out of that and go, how do I contextualize what he's telling me in how I want to do this? And that was huge.

Where a lot of people get hung up on that, I think is.

I think they kind of both of those things tie together is that you've got to make it your own and that propensity for action. A lot of people that think, like, we do want everything, we want to plan it out perfectly before we take that action, and that just doesn't lend to successful entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship. Like, you've just got to know you're going to be wrong, and it's okay. You've just got to be ready to make those changes along the way. From your experience, Shannon, what do you think it is that keeps people from. From taking those actions? Like, you. You've seen people in the program that just don't. Why do you think that is? What do you think the difference is between you and maybe some of them?

I. And I wish I knew the answer to that question because I've, like, I. I'm programmed this way and. And not on purpose. I just think, like, call it enneagram3 manifesting generator. Whatever the. Whatever excuse I have for labeling.

Like, it's a mix of fear, it's a mix of comfort. Sometimes I think I think it's the why. Because, like, my why is super strong. My why is like, because I want to live a location agnostic life. With my husband, be able to take care of him, potentially start a family and never have to ask permission to take a vacation day again in my life. Like, that is my, my why. And it's very strong. And I'm like, I'm very certain this is what I want.

But I think that, I think that for some people and I'm just assuming, like, this is one example, right, of how, like, if you have, if I had that, that job and I didn't have to grow financial, if I didn't have to do any of this stuff, like, it could just fall on the back burner as a. Well, this is like kind of a fun hobby. Or this may never grow anywhere. And that's okay. Like when you're, when you set expectations for yourself that aren't high and you don't have a strong why behind it, then you can easily convince and justify for yourself why it's not working or why you just need more knowledge, thinking that somehow through osmosis, by watching content, it will impact your life. Alex Hormozy has a great phrase for this, which is going to sound terrible, but he calls it.

I'm going to write this down.

All right, go ahead, Alex Hormozy, who I follow. I freaking love Alex Hormozi's content. But Hormozi has this great quote where he calls it mental does. All you are doing is you're like, you're not going anywhere. You're getting nothing done, but you're sitting there entertaining yourself, just consuming content over and over and over again thinking that it's going to improve your life. It is not. You are not getting any closer to what you want by watching and consuming. You have to go out and do the thing. So I think there's a common misconception that, like signing up for a program or signing up with a coach means I'm going to get results. No, they're going to tell you what worked for them. They're also going to tell you what they think might work for you. But you have to go do the stuff. Like hiring a personal trainer doesn't mean you lose weight. You have to go actually do the exercise. So I think that there's just this misconception that you can purchase your way to results, you can consume your way to results, but I mean, there's really no shortcut to it.

There's not. And it's just repeated action, just doing it, learning and getting a little bit better. That's actually a great segue into the next thing I want to to unpack with you.

I say the, the number one skill that's lacking with early stage fractional CFOs is marketing and sales. In fact, those are two different skills. I've had a fair amount of success with both of those. You've had. Honestly, in the marketing world, I kind of bow down to you like you, you crush it. I'll go head to head with anybody on a sales call though. But you've done such a great job with marketing, especially relative to where most people are, because the reality is coming from the industries that we come from, we just don't have any exposure to that. But what would you say for like, your best advice. Advice would be around, let's break them into two pieces. Let's talk about marketing first and then sales.

Yeah.

You know, people struggle to get those first clients to even make it to that first 100 or $200,000 in revenue. Where do they, where would you suggest they go to find those first? Let's say 10 clients that get them to multiple six figures.

Like where to find them. I'm gonna rephrase that into what you have to do so they find you. Okay. Because, because that's what it's, that's what you do. You don't want to be the bee, you want to be the flower. You don't want to be buzzing around looking for something. You want everyone to be gravitated towards you. This is how I've built my business. I haven't had to do much cold outreach or many proposals. I get a lot coming in to me because of what I'm doing. So, so here's my, here's my, my crucial thing. Like if I, somebody comes to me and says, I want to start a fractional CFO business and I want my first client, where do I start? I point them to the story brand framework and say, what problem do you solve? Okay, and who is your ideal client? Like, what type of client do you want? And, and if you don't have one in mind, pick one. Like, we just have to pick one. Pick someone that you'd like, you'd like to work with. And you have to work on messaging. You have to work on the messaging. You have to work on how you build trust with that particular ideal client. My entire marketing method is trust based marketing. The reason why I get good clients that I love and the reason why people are applying to work with me is because they trust me. I'm getting DMs every day. People sending me other people's TikTok posts about taxes and going, Shannon, is this real? Because I've established an authority, I've established trust and I've established that I'm looking out for you. You can come in and check in with me. You can, you can touch base with me anytime. And I think that depending on who you're going after in the market, that is huge. If you can build trust and show up as a trusted authoritative expert in your area, then you, you'll have to shoo people away from you. You won't have to do a ton of, you know, cold sales because you'll, you'll have people who want to work with you inherently as soon as they pick up the phone with you. So I would say messaging is big.

So let's, I want, I want to dive a little bit deeper on that. So, yeah, love the idea of trust based marketing, but it's Monday morning, I actually, I guess it's Tuesday morning that these goes live. I'm listening to you talk. All right, I gotta do trust based marketing. What does it mean? Like, how do I now go do trust based marketing?

Okay, so in whatever platform you're choosing, and I would choose one mainstream, one channel that you are going to go all in on. I would not spread yourself too thin on social media if you're going to be online. So if you're going after an online type of business, so I'm assuming if you're a fractional CFO and you want to work online, mostly most people do these days, then you want to pick a social platform, some type of online presence that, where your client is, where your ideal client is hanging out. That could be LinkedIn, that could be Facebook, that could be Instagram. For me, it's mostly Instagram. I find that that is a really cool little storefront for me where I can have a lot of fun and post a lot of different content. So what I would do is sit down with all the different things that you can teach or that you can do to entertain your ideal customer. And I would also try to find, find them where they are at and find out what they're asking. So when I first started, I actually went into Facebook groups because I was serving fitness professionals at the time and I was one. So this was actually extremely helpful because I could go into the afa, the nasm, the, the, the industry groups and I can see what they were asking. So like, do I need an llc? Do I really need this? How do I file my business taxes? How do I. And I was answering these questions and I was putting in reps of answering questions. And then I realized these are the top 10 questions that keep coming up.

It's all this, always the same.

It's always the same. It's like the same 10 questions. So I said, okay, interesting. So if I can answer these 10 questions on repeat, that built the most momentum for me from zero to something. So I was answering all those questions on repeat, and I was actually nervous, which is funny. I told my first business coach, like, I'm going to run out of content. We may have to post like, 5 times a week or something. I'm going to run out of things to say. I don't think I've. I think I've repeated a post like 3 times in the last 3 years. I always have something new that comes up and you have to use. The questions you're getting are your key because they're phrased in their words the way and I phrase my questions in their words, like, do I really need an llc? Yes or no? Like, here's why. And I think that if you can answer those questions truthfully, but you can also inject your own personality in your answer. So it's not a straight yes. No, it's going to be a well, here's what I think about it, you know, and the tonality is key, where you're not sounding like you're talking down to anybody, because our industry is already perceived as basically getting yelled at by your dad. So you want to be. You want to be warm, you want to be trustworthy, you want to say, hey, I got you. And you want to use common phrasing like you're having coffee with that person. You always have to be mindful of who's on the other end of that phone. It's just one person listening to you. So I actually use this tactic, call it a tactic, if you will. I said, if you're leaving a voicemail, everything you're recording, you're leaving a voicemail. So, like, it has to be, you know. Hey. Hey, it's Shannon. Just wanted to let you know I'll see you soon.

Conversational, friendly.

Exactly.

If you wouldn't say this on a voicemail, then examine how you're phrasing it right, because this is just your friend on the other side of the phone, and we have to start perceiving it that way and not like. So today that we're like, it's so rigid and stiff. And some of the stuff I'm seeing, I'm like, ugh, it's not. It's not natural. And it's not conversational. So I know it's not like, not every accountant is extroverted or social, but you have to, you have to talk like you're talking to your friend. And if it's not easy for you, then literally have your friend ask you questions and you answer them and have them record you. It's gonna be a lot easier.

It goes back to reps. I struggle with that. People always tell me like, oh, you're, you're so great on video. And I tell them like, I struggled like my poor wife when I first started doing stuff. I'm like the words that I used in the, you know, I was like, yeah, this is embarrassing, but exactly. You just have to practice it. And that's another one of those things that you're not going to just watch your way into excellence with it where you get comfortable and conversational. You've got to go through those ugly, ugly first steps and maybe five steps for you or 500 like it was for me, but you've just got to go through the effort. I think you've had tremendous success multiple six figure business now in the vast majority of your clients come through either social media or you being on other podcasts and those kind of things. I've taken a completely different approach to building my firm. And I think that it's a really great example of. Back to what you said earlier is there's no right or wrong way. You just have to kind of do what's great for you. So, you know, for us it was upwork. We went and found clients on upwork and then from there it was going to masterminds, group coaching programs, networking events.

And there's no right or wrong way to do it. And I think so many people spend such an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out what the perfect way is that they don't do any of the things or they dabble in a lot of things and they never get good. They're not loyal to any one of those things, like let me be all in on Instagram or let me be all in on upwork. And so they don't ever get any traction because they don't ever learn. I think that's like, those are the two things. Like either you don't do anything because you're waiting for the, the perfect thing, or you try it once and you didn't get half a million dollars worth of business and so now you're gonna go on to the next thing, or you just say, ah, the industry's dead. Nobody's hiring CFOs these days. I'm gonna give up. Mike and Shannon are stupid. They don't know what they're. They're just lucky. They were just lucky and they figured it out.

Yeah, there's no. There's zero luck involved. I will never attribute any of this to luck. It is all. It's all based on being in the right place at the right time, but showing up in those places. And I think that people wait around too much for things to come to them. And I say, even though I said before, I'm. I'm not waiting around by any stretch of the imagination. People do come to me, but that's because I have been. It's like. It's like you walk by one of those store, like you're walking down Main street in, like a town. Town near you, right? And there's this one store where there's like, people outside playing music. There's like a live band, there's a sign. There's all this stuff. It's like, you want to be that store. So people are like, the hell's going on over there? That's. That's what I mean is like, there's enough stuff outside my storefront to go, hey, come check this out. Because we're making noise in other places. We're in the other stores, we're in other podcasts. I started my own podcast. I have guests on the show. So we're creating more of that web and that network and that presence so that people will know who we are and then say, oh, this is really interesting. I would be interested in working with them. And even if it's not right away, I'm here for the long haul with these guys.

I love this saying that luck is the intersection of preparation and opportunity.

Yes.

It's exactly what you just described. Right. You're just out there and letting get your name out there so that when they're ready, you're the first person that they think of. Let's shift gears, though. I want to. So that's marketing.

Yeah.

So once you get them into your store now you've got to close the sale.

Right.

And that's another area where people in our industry, just due to lack of experience or training, whatever, they typically struggle. That's not been something that you struggle with. What have you seen to be kind of the key factors to your success on sales calls?

So contrary to what you think, I do struggle with it. That is probably the one area I struggle with more. Even though I do have a sales Background, because I think that when you're selling yourself, I was selling someone else's product that I truly believed in, and I truly believe in what we sell as well. But there's a bit of, like, the. The sales process because it has to change every sales call because you have to fully understand the person on the other side of the conversation.

And.

And it's an exercise, and it's a lot of effort. So for me, it's a lot of effort to, like, unravel the person every time, because my. I know my core offer of what I'm selling doesn't change. I believe in it, but it's about how do I have to articulate this so that they get it? And I have to adapt that Every call, which is challenging for me. It's doable, but it's challenging. I think that my. My success with sales, honestly, it's the head start I get from marketing is very key because by the time they hit on the phone with me, they're like, oh, I've been trying. I actually had someone. Okay, there's two, like, mini stories. One person lied on their form because they wanted me to do a call with them. And they. She said, I knew you were not going to sign up. You were not going to let me sign up with you if I told you what I actually made. But I'm so committed to having you in my corner. I really want to work with you.

So you're. When you say form, you mean like a pre call application?

My inquiry form? Yeah. So we have a. We have a pre. Like a screening questionnaire they fill out. We look at it. I've actually trained my assistant to do this for me too, which is awesome. So they screen for certain qualifications, we ask certain questions, and we. We choose a path. They're either a good tax strategy leader, they're a good CFO lead. Then what we'll do is have the phone call if they're a good lead, but they get ahead of time. They get an email that's like, from me with a video of me saying, hey, I'm so happy to schedule a call with you. Here's the thing. Before we do our call, go watch this video. This will cut to the chase and give you the exact information you're probably wondering which has my pricing in it, which is controversial sometimes, but it has my pricing and has my offers, has our core values, has pictures of our team. Here's who we are, here's what we do, right? Not in that particular order, but we go through all of this in a few slides, eight to ten minutes, and then they book the call. But if they book the call, I know they saw that. So now when they're on the sales call with me, I am not nervous at all because they know everything that I would have told them. Now it's all about them. How can we help you? And that has alleviated a lot of the pressure for me. And again, this is how I do it because I was so nervous on sales calls with am I going to fit in all the crap I want to say about us.

Instead of all the stuff I want to hear from the prospect? And I'm going that it should be them talking. It should be mostly them talking. I shouldn't have to cram in a, you know, a keynote presentation into a sales call. And I don't want it to take more than 30 minutes of their time because I don't want them to feel like it's a massive commitment just to, you know, book a call. So I kind of figured out how to save time by using that. And it's worked well because it really does allow us to kind of quote, unquote, cut the chase on the sales call. So that's been a key success factor for me because again, most of the time the people who have enrolled or who have submitted a form know who I am. This is not a googled cfo, clicked my button, never heard of Shannon. These are people who listen to my podcast. These are people who feel like they know who I am already and we're seeking me out. Which is, I think, why, I'm not gonna say easier, but why my sales calls have been smoother.

This is another great example of there's no right or wrong way to do it.

The money shows it's working for you. I have a very different sales process than that. Right, right. And I've actually, I looked at that process, but it didn't resonate with me when I looked at it years ago. And so that works great for you and I love it that you've come up with your own thing. So just for the listeners, like to contrast that, I take a very different approach. We have kind of an application like you talked about, where there's some revenue kinds of things in there to filter everybody out. But then I get on a 60 minute sales call and I use a framework which Shameless Plug. I'll drop the link below if you want to see what you know, my hour long free training on that. But I go through a framework that hits on the exact same things that you just described Shannon. Where it's going to go through in the first half of it is really all about them and learning about their goals, dreams, aspirations, fears and uncertainties. And I have some questions that kind of prod that out of them. Then it shifts into telling my story and how I started my firm and why I interject our values and our beliefs and our philosophies into that story. I then talk about how that story shaped the services that we offer. And I always relate those services back to what they shared with me in the first half of the call, and then I go into pricing and close it down from there. And that's worked tremendously well for me. But I think the key thing is like a. We both have a process. Like, there's, there's a thing where I see a lot of people just kind of willy nilly, you know, winging it. Yeah, really? Sure, Winging it. And that doesn't pay off. The other couple things that I think are common denominators that are the, the keys to winning here, it's all about them letting them talk and letting them kind of get their story out. And the other one that I'm so glad you hit on is it's important for you to get out your values and your philosophies because really, the services themselves, in a lot of ways are commodities. You know, anybody can do cash flow forecasting and projections and those kinds of things, but people, they buy you because of who you are and why you are the way you are. And so most people just want to go into, like, spewing out like, oh, this is our service package and this is what we, we charge. You're a commodity if you're doing that.

That's the transactional. That's. That's the transactional, though, where, like, they can search and replace new, new person who can do bookkeeping, person who can do tax return. But, like, if they feel drawn to you as a professional and they're hiring you for their team, then it's more than the checklist of stuff that you do. And I wanted to reiterate that. Like, I took your framework and I said, okay, let me take all of Mike's framework and take the pieces where I don't need to be physically with the client for them to hear this. And that's what I put in the video so that I could distill it to a shorter call and that I didn't feel pressured because I would ramble about my own stuff and say the same thing over and over again. And I said, you know what I mean? I'm going to put the values. I'm going to put all this stuff in the front end, and then they can also rewatch it. So I said, okay, I'm going to put this all on the front end. So I did that my way. But the thing is, I watched your framework. I took that. This is a perfect example of it, though, because I said, I want to do exactly what Mike does. And I did that. And I said, but my nature is like, this is going to go over. I'm taking an hour of their time talking about myself because I'm so worried about fitting that in, even though all I want to do is hear more about their business. So I said, okay, you know what? I'm gonna take that out, I'm gonna put it over there, and then I don't have to say it, and I'm not gonna be thinking about it. You know, when you're in class, you have a book report to give, you're not. You're not listening to Jack that the other kids are saying, because you're just stressing out of what you have to say. That was me. And I said, this is taking away from the sales call because I'm distracted.

I love that awareness. I love.

I said, I have to take this out and I can't either. I have to be. Either I have to say it first and get it over with, or I have to put it somewhere else so that I am fully present and listening to them. But that was a thing where I took your framework and said, this is how it will benefit me because I can't do it, or, you know, it doesn't fit me to do it. You know, the exact recipe that you followed.

I love that. I think that's probably my favorite thing about you is that willingness to just take something and like mold it into the thing that works for you. Just having that self awareness is so amazing.

But trying it first, that was the biggest thing, is I did everything. Oh, I did everything to the t. The way that you. To the extent possible, I would do everything the way that you prescribed it. But then I would go like, that feels weird. That doesn't feel like. That didn't feel like me. You know, like you start picking out the points where you're like, this is uncomfortable. I don't like this. And it doesn't mean that your framework doesn't work. It just means that, oh, this is something where I need to do it my way. And I figured that out, but I had to Start with. Excuse me, I had to start with something. And that's what, that's what the mastermind does, though, is it gives you. Here's your starting point. That worked for us. Do what you will with this. And I. But I think you have. But you have to be willing to take that and go try it before you. Before you knock it and say, that won't work for me.

And that's where a lot of people. I've done this before in programs I was in, you know, like, oh, this doesn't work for me. And then I scrap it and I'm on looking for the next magic pill. And it's really not about that. It's like, okay, what, what can I. Let me, let me do it. Let me critically think about it. What worked, what didn't? And then how do I. I change it? So we've never talked about this before. This is like, super exciting to. To hear that that's kind of how you work through it.

If you could leave one piece of advice for that. That person that's listening to this episode, they want to be where financial is today. Maybe they're just.

They're.

They're not. They're just getting started, right? They're maybe not even to their first hundred or two hundred thousand dollars yet. What would your advice be or your biggest lesson learned in your journey be? That's very actionable for them.

I would go back to the point you made before. This was the biggest breakthrough for me was you don't have to do more to charge more. That was like my biggest thing. And I think that that is the. That is what holds so many people back that were coming into our program because we were all kind of on the same page going, how do I. You wrote the number. You were like, $3,000 a month. What would it take for you to charge that? And I was frozen. And I said, I don't know what else I could possibly do. And I also realized, and this is going to sound funny, but I also realized I was doing more than you were doing in terms of a list of features, right? I had more features than kfe and I was less than half the price. So I was like, doing more isn't the answer. And that was kind of. That, like, shook me up because I was like, okay, if I'm not going to do more for the client, like, what else can I do? We misdirect the do more as value. And I just actually posted this the other night because I was thinking about this, that more value is not More features, more value is more results. So when you turn to your client and figure out, so believe it or not, all it was was this was the biggest breakthrough I went through with my clients and said, name three goals you have for your business. And then every month when I go through their financials, I look at their goals first and I reframe and say, okay, like, this client wants to spend more time with their daughters. Are we getting closer toward that goal or away from it? Like, are all these things she's doing going closer to that goal or away from it?

For example, she wanted to open an E commerce business on Shopify, sell all this stuff and do all this extra stuff with sales tax. You guys know, like, that is an undertaking. And I said, and she's like, it'll make a ton of money. It'll be great margins. I said, okay, but you told me your goal was to spend more time with your daughters. This is going to cost you a few more hours a week. You're going to have to fulfill. You're going to have to ship, you're going to have to get the products, you're going to have to go to the, you know, do everything that's associated with that and do inventory. Are you prepared for that? And like, we had a really tough conversation about that. It's not the numbers. And that's like. And that's why I've become, I've had such a footprint in that business as the cfo, because I'm willing to have those conversations and say, but is this moving you closer to that goal? Like you told me back in January, this is where you want to be. This is not in alignment with that. Are you sure? And it really made her open up her eyes to this. And she was very grateful for that conversation because she's like, I just got so caught up in this idea that you brought me back to my why again. And that was really powerful. So I know that was a long winded answer to your question, but I would say that your value is not in the features. Your value is in the transformation.

Like I said, yeah, the features are just your delivery mechanism for the transformation. It's kind of like the platform that you use to help them get to that transformation. One of the biggest things that I've learned is when you get to a point when you have conversations like you just shared, where you're, you're helping them see that their decisions are keeping them away from their daughter or whatever their goals are, you'll. You, you never have to worry about them. Leaving you. You never have to worry about them saying, well, I just saw somebody else at this lower price or, you know, the economy starting to tighten up. Maybe, you know, maybe I should, you know, trim you off of. Of my, my SGNA expenses. Just, it'll never happen like you are their ride or die at that point. And I would encourage everybody, when you hear those kinds of conversations, you need to mentally chalk that up like goosebumps, Huge win. Because that means you've arrived at that. That point. Now don't rest on your laurels. Like, you've got to continue to earn that place on their team. Is that trusted. That trusted advisor or partner. But that's kind of how you know is when in those conversations will peek their head out a couple times a year with clients that you've kind of arrived at that point at. So I think that's so, so wise. And it really kind of go back to the sales conversation and even marketing. Quit trying to sell your line items. Quit trying to sell the things that you do and talk about goals and dreams, aspirations, talk about your values. It was, I mean, I don't see anyone talking about that stuff in their, in their marketing and on their sales calls, but that's what people buy and that's what keeps people around. So, Shannon, thank you so much. This was awesome. You were, like I said, you were my first guest ever when I started this. Never did I imagine that the word would be said on this episode, but here we are now. It's been said twice.

Oh, my gosh. I knew. I knew you were going to enjoy that term, but I love that one. That one stuck with me for sure.

Didn't see it coming. Didn't see it coming. And I want to say, so proud of the progress that you made over the last year. And a lot of people don't know this. Most people don't know this, but you were the reason that I started this whole thing in the first place.

Not the reason, but.

You kept nagging me like, mike, will you help? Will you coach me? And I'm like, all right, fine. Here. Here's the thing. And so I'm, like I said, Over 100 people in the program now, growing every day. And the likelihood that this program is here without your nudge or nag or whatever you want to use.

Wouldn'T be here. Very likely. So I'm eternally grateful for you, for the nudge and the nag.

Oh, yeah. I'm not shy about saying I need your help. I want you to help me. Please turn me into what you've built. I need your help with.

I'm so happy when you. I think I made my day when you messaged me and said so I'm thinking of starting this thing finally. I was like, done. Sign me up. Where do I send the check?

That's exactly what you said.

Exactly. Yeah.

Well, thank you so much for the nudge. And thanks for being here and sharing your story, Shannon.

Absolutely. Anytime.

If you're serious about scaling your firm to multiple six figures or seven figures and you'd like to learn more about the CFO Mastermind, I'd love for you to head to over over to the Connected Accountant.com mastermind. There you're going to find all the details about the program and you'll be able to apply if you're interested in working together with me and a select few other fractional CFOs for the next 12 months. In the meantime, I can't wait to see you back right here. Same time next week on the Connected Accountant. I'll see you then, my friends.

Sam.