Financial Modeling Frameworks to Build Error-Free Models In Excel Using SIMPLE Method

I've been building models, I've been teaching people, I've been training people to even write the exam because it made me to see how to build a model in a very simple way.

Babatope Samuel Agbeo, A seasoned finance professional and corporate trainer with over 3,000 executives trained globally. He's a master in financial modeling, valuations and Excel. Babatope brings a wealth of knowledge in.

Simplifying complex financial concepts.

You've seen a terrible model somewhere along the way or you've built one or dealt with one.

Cost of sales was not divided by device saw, but then when you do the switch to maybe thousand or million, then you have a loss.

Where do you think most of the problems come from?

I really want to have a general understanding of model. Most of the errors that I've seen in hundreds and thousands of models that I've reviewed, it really comes from the numerical.

What does it mean to you to be a model? To be modular?

It simply means that you need to have a distinct calculation block for each of your line items.

What's the number one lesson you've learned that's helped you the most?

It's basically to master the basic set and make sure.

Welcome to Financial Modelers Corner where we discuss the art and science of financial modeling with your host, Paul Barnhurst. Financial Modelers Corner is sponsored by Financial Modeling Institute. Welcome to Financial Modelers Corner. I am your host, Paul Barnhurst. This is the podcast where we talk all about the art and the science of financial modeling with distinguished financial modelers from around the globe. The Financial Modelers Corner podcast is brought to you by the Financial Modeling Institute. FMI offers the most respected accreditations in financial modeling, the best way to validate your modeling skills to the community and your employers. And that's why I completed the Advanced financial Modeling this week. I'm thrilled to welcome to the show. Baba Taupe Samuel Gabello welcome to Financial Modelers Corner.

Thank you Paul. It's my pleasure.

Really excited to have you. Thanks for joining us. Let me read a little bit of a brief bio about Tope and then we'll jump into the questions. So he's a seasoned finance professional and an exceptional corporate trainer with extensive experience in delivering high impact training programs. Over the years, he has trained more than 3,000 executives across diverse industries both domestically and internationally. He's a highly skilled facilitator and has taught courses in finance, accounting, Excel, valuations and modeling. The approach he uses is called tag simple, self explanatory, intuitive, modular, precise and professionally presented, Logical and error Free. So we'll jump into that later on Models. You know, in addition to his training experience, he's done a lot of webinars on financial modeling, has been invited to speak at various industries. He's also done everybody's favorite thing of having to review and audit models. He's done hundreds of those and the approach he likes to use there is called pains, Presentation, assumptions, integrity, numerical structure to check those errors. Before joining the big four he also worked for D. Brown Consulting doing financial modeling as a lead there. He holds his AFM and FMVA certificates and we are thrilled to have him. So there's a little bit about his background. So we like to start every interview with this question. Tell me your horror story. I know you've seen a terrible model somewhere along the way or you've built one or dealt with one.

Absolutely, Paul. And the particular model is a situation where the model is well built, but then the divisor has an error. So the cost of sales was not divided by the divisor, but then every other line items were divided by the divisor. So when you do the switch to units, then it calculates properly but then when you do the switch to maybe thousand or million then you have a loss. And the question now is where is this coming from? And it's because of the divisor. Right. And that was the horror one.

Yeah, that, that would be horrible if you change. Yeah, they didn't adjust things correctly. So sounds like it was an easy fix.

You need your volume and that is what you use to build your cost of sales. So you need to have a distinct calculation block for each of your line items.

Got it. So basically have that calculation block build up the schedule in each area. So for revenue you need, you might need volume, price, any constraints, cogs, whatever the inputs are and whatever level you need to build it up, build up all those calculation blocks and then you can link through the rest of the model.

Yes. It makes it to be very, very easy to read.

Yeah, no, I, I, I, I agree. I think you know, AFM teaches that approach. You know, they, they focus on you doing that for the test and I find it works very well. It helped me a lot to, to, to take that and see the way they lay out that three statement model, you know and what do you say? Precise and professionally presented. So kind of the presented side of that, what does that mean to you? Is that the executive summary is that cover sheets, what does that entail to make sure a model is professionally presented.

When we talk about professionalism in model. It talks about how you actually structure your model and then I agree with you that you can also relate that to your executive summary as well. RV is such an executive summary that entails information that is very, very useful to the key stakeholders be able to make decision. I see a lot of models today that are not useful and it is not useful because they do not have the key information to that is required by the key stakeholders to be able to make information. As such a model, it lacks content because it doesn't have those key information. So as a result of that, when you build your model, professionalism is very, very key. Make sure that it is well presented, well detailed, and it's able to answer the key questions of a stakeholder so that they'll be able to make such a model to make informed decisions.

Got it. That makes sense to me. So you know, when you're teaching people, what's your favorite part about teaching financial modeling? What do you like about teaching people?

When teaching people, the part that I love the most is when I teach them. Debt schedule. So working with David, he built a dynamic debt schedule that he can use to automate. I mean, thousands, if I'm not exaggerating here, but then thousands of debt. I know compliments take thousands. But then let's say for example, you have maybe about 10 dates. You can build just a single schedule and from that single schedule, use it to automate for all the different dates that you might want to incorporate in the model. And that is the best part for me because it always looks like a magic when you are teaching in class. So when I get to class and then I get to that part, then I start teaching them how to build it. A lot of my students, they always see that as a magic. And I find it very, very interesting because it's very, very helpful for them. It's help them to optimize attacks and then make them to very, very efficient when you're working as well.

I like that. You know, it's always fun when people think something you're doing is magic and they see that moment of oh, wow, I can do that. I've seen that more than a few times. We teach Power Query and people are like, wait, I don't have to do this manually or whatever it might be. But that's one that often stands out for me. So, you know, I want to ask you a question about the Advanced Financial Modeler. You earned that from fmi. You know, obviously you did fmva. You'd been teaching people. So what made motivated you to Earn the designation. Why did you decide that, you know, that was something you wanted to earn?

The reason why I had to write the EFM exam is because I really want to have a general understanding of model and then see it from under perspective. I've been building models, I've been teaching people, I've been training people to even write the exam. But then I want to see it from a different perspective. And then joining the AFM is actually a very good one for me because it's made me to see how to build a model in a very simple way.

Yeah. Allows you to see that in a very simple way. What was your favorite part of kind of preparing that or taking it or what did you find most valuable?

What I find most valuable in the EFM course is the troubleshooting part that is the 10th session. I love that. I mean I've been able to build up on that to be able to review models and pick errors and reasons why balance sheet does not balance.

You know, I like that. And you know, being able to troubleshoot a model is so critical. Finding those errors and mistakes. Anyone who's built enough models has had a balance sheet. Not balance. Right. We've all been there and it's, it's easy to be like I'm just going to plug it, screw it, I'm just going to stick it and retain earnings and I'm done. And you're laughing because I'm sure you've had more than one moment you wanted to do that. But being able to and figure out why it's wrong is so important.

Absolutely. Although I've never done that. But then I've seen an instance where people make use of either cached or retained any as a plugin and what that causes is that at every point the model keeps balancing. Even when you delete a line item, it's still going to balance because it keeps back serving itself.

FP and a guy here and as you know, I am very passionate about financial modeling in the Financial Modeling Institute's mission. I have been a huge fan of the FMI for years and I was super excited when they decided to sponsor the Financial Modeler's Corner. I recently completed the Advanced Financial Modeler certification and loved the entire experience. It was top notch from start to finish. I am a better modeler today for having completed the certification. I strongly believe every remodeler needs to demonstrate they are a qualified financial modeler and one of the best ways to do that is through the FMI's program earning the accreditation will demonstrate to Your current and future employers that you are serious about financial modeling. What are you waiting for? Visit www.fminstitute.com podcast and use code PODCAST PODCAST to save 15% when you enroll in an accreditation today.

Yeah, exactly. People do things to force it to always balance, and you often don't know that you have other issues. Whenever you, we've all seen it, you start digging in. You know, I have, I have this one model I work on, and, like, there's four or five years in the model and everything balances. But, like, one month, it's like $180 out. And I finally just hit said, fine, I'm leaving it.

Wow.

You know, because it's literally like millions of dollars. And I, I, I went through it, like, line by line and couldn't figure it out. So I'm like, all right, 180 on millions. It's one of like 60 months. I don't care. Close enough. I didn't, I didn't plug when I just left it and said, okay, it's slightly out of balance for this month. It'll be okay. Or, you know, I've had some unreconciled cash items, and I think across a total year, they're like $3,000. I'm like, all right, I'm okay having a line. There. There's that materiality, right? You want it to be right. You want it to be error free. And if, you know, everything else makes sense, everybody's using it, it's good. And it's just one little thing. Sometimes you have to be like, all right, not material, but you have to know modeling well enough to be able to do that.

Absolutely.

Otherwise, you do things like, you know, we've all seen where you plug it, and then all of a sudden you have negative cash or, you know, you have some other crazy asset building up and somebody comes in and goes, this makes no sense. What's going on here? I had one guest I had on the show one time. He told me he came across the model where, you know, they'd put their error checks in. You know, you do like, hey, if it balances okay, if it doesn't balance, error. But they had written the if statement to say if it balances okay. If it doesn't balance okay.

Wow.

Both the true and false were okay. And he dug into this model and it was $17 billion out of balance, and nobody had caught it.

Now see us.

Seriously. And so that one made me laugh. I'm like, that's a great way to. Well, I built all the Error checks, they just say, okay, no matter what.

Yeah. And I mean, people really bent on the error check. Because when you do that error check, it's more like helps you to keep track of. But then in building your error check, one thing I'm able to learn from this is that you need to also double check whatever formula that you might have built in in your error check and ensure that it calculates properly.

You got to have those error checks and you got to review and make sure they're all calculating correctly. And it's not enough to say, I built the error checks and then always assume everything's good. You still need to do some logical checks to make sure. And speaking of that, so when it comes to reviewing and auditing models, you know, in the introduction we mentioned the PAINS approach. So talk to us about that, maybe walk us through those steps and how you use it.

Okay. So for the PAINS approach, I would give you a background story. So at my earlier career, it was very, very difficult for me to balance a model. I've built several models. But then it kept going off balance. It doesn't balance. Then one day at the office, we had the training and David had to review an individual's model. And at that point, David was checking. Started from the cash flow, went to the balance sheet, and I was trying to see the movement of cash. And at the end of the day, the model balanced. And I was like, wow, this is a magic. But then now I had to go back to my own model that I've built several years, checked it, and I was able to balance it. I was very, very happy that day. And then, and I sat down and came up with this particular approach that whenever you want to build your model or the error in your model, it tag pins. The reason that is it is a pin. That particular error is a pin. And for you to be able to review your model, the first part I need to start from is a presentation. Then check the assumption, ensure that it is logical, check the integrity of the model, and then look out for numerical calculation, see that it's well calculated. And then the last thing is that it is well structured and presented.

Yeah. So I'm, I'm curious, in the, you know, as we talk about pains, where do you think most of the problems come from? Is it presentation, assumptions, numerical structure, integrity? What do you most often see?

Well, I wouldn't say assumption because assumption is subjective, but then I would say numerical because it is in the calculation, how they've linked it and then how they might have been done their Competition. That is most of the errors that I've seen in hundreds and thousands of models that I've reviewed. It really comes from the numerical.

Sure. And that makes sense. And why do you think that is? Is it because they poorly designed the model? Is it. You know, the Excel skills aren't there, getting too complex with flow formulas. Why do you think the errors tend to be numerical? Like what's kind of the root root of why that happens so often?

I rather go with being poorly presented because if you've not presented your model very well and they not linked properly, I think it's also resulting from linking error as well. So if it is not being calculated very well and then it's not properly linked into the model model, then it's going to be calculating wrongly. I give you an example, a situation where you need to link your capes as an outflow of cash into your cash flow statement. Then you link it as positive. That means that your cash flow from investing will be wrongly computed. So that is just an error that we would need to look out for.

Got it. That, that, that makes sense. That's a good example. All right, so I have a couple little more fun questions here. The first one I think is a little bit fun. What's your favorite Excel shortcut?

My best shortcut to me is Control R, Control D. Copy your formula to the right and then copy the formula down.

I am not surprised. That's a very common one for sure. The Control R, Control D. Right. We all want things to be simple. What's the most unique kind of funnest thing you have used Excel for in your personal life? That most unique model or use case?

Well, I've not used any in particular for myself, but then I've built one for someone. So this individual wants to use it to track his expense because he's planning for his wedding. So he wants to be able to track his expense and then his cash flow. And he then requested that I assist him to come up with an A tracker. So I came up with that tracker, I sent it to him, and then he was able to use that to track his cash flows.

Now, so the question is, did he still go over, did he overspend anyway?

Yes, he still WASPed, but then it gave him actually a clue as to what is to expect.

Yeah, he was a. He may have overspent, but he was able to quickly see, oh, I've really overspent or I need to rein it in. Yes, we're a little bit over, but I can manage this sometimes just Seeing the number is eye openening when you're like, wait, I've spent how much? And we all know weddings, you know, and they're a wonderful thing, are notorious for being expensive.

Yeah.

So I like that one. You know, as you look back over your career, what's the number one lesson you've learned that's helped you the most? So maybe advice given experience you had, but that number one lesson that's helped you the most in your career?

For me, it's basically to master the basics and make sure that you always keep things simple. When I started my career building model, I have a little knowledge of accounting, so I had to start from the basics and then I started building up on it. Building up on it. I knew nothing about Excel at the point when I started, but then getting started from the basic actually assisted me. And I remember that I told you earlier that it was more like taking me from ground zero to more like Grant 8080. Right. So it's more like make sure that you know the basic. Once you know the foundation, I can tell you for free that you can easily build up on that.

I love that there, there's two things I kind of took away in the advice there and that first. Right. Learn the basics. Learning the foundation will benefit you on anything you're doing if you learn the foundation of that process and then focus on keeping it simple. And as I like to say, try to build the model as simple as you can because the business will make your, your end user will make it more complex on you regardless. So don't, don't make it more complex yourself. Others will want to do that for you whether you want it or not.

Yeah. Simplicity is actually very, very key.

Yeah. And you know, one of my favorite sayings is simple is hard, complex is easy. It's often easier to write that big old long nested if statement, but it's not the, it's not the right way to do it. Often you have to really think to make things simple, you have to really understand them. I struggle with it. I mean I've written plenty of probably formulas that are more complex than they should be over the years. So I really like that advice.

Yeah. One thing is that most times when you build those long formulas going back to now, troubleshoot them is difficult because you might have even forgotten how you came about this formula. But then at the point of building it, yes, those thinking, thinking through it, they're able to get it. But then coming back to it when I explain what very, very difficult. And that is one Thing that I pick from the first standard, I should be able to explain any formula within 24 seconds.

Yeah. So one I really liked is that a guest on the other day, he goes, you know, make sure you keep your. Your formulas simple enough that you can explain them tomorrow, like, right the next time. But the workbook next week, whenever you actually know what it's doing, because we've all done that. You finish something, you open it up, and you're like, what was I trying to do here? And you spend, you know, 40 minutes trying to unpick the formula you've written. I mean, I've done that plenty. So, all right, we're going to move into our section called Rapid Fire. I'll lay the groundwork of how this works. I know you've listened to some episodes, so you know the basics. No. No consulting answers. No. It depends. You got to pick a side A, yes or no, and then you can elaborate at the end on one or two of them because there's nuance to all of them. I understand that. So the ones you're most passionate about. So you ready?

Yes.

All right, Bunty. So, all right, we're going to move into our section called Rapid Fire. I'll lay the groundwork of how this works. I know you've listened to some episodes, so you know the basics. No. No consulting answers. No. It depends. You got to pick a side A, yes or no, and then you can elaborate at the end on one or two of them, because there's nuance to all of them. I understand that. So the ones you're most passionate about. So you ready?

Yes.

All right. Circular references, yes or no?

No.

Vba, yes or no?

No.

Do you prefer a horizontal model? So lots of worksheets are kind of vertical with all your schedules in one one tab.

Vertical.

Vertical. All right.

Yes.

Seriously. And so that. That one made me laugh. I'm like, that's a great way to. Well, I built all the error checks. They just say, okay, no matter what.

Yeah. And I mean, people really bent on the error check. Because when you do that error check, it's more like helps you to keep track of. But then in building your error check, one thing I'm able to learn from this is that you need to also double check whatever formula that you might have built in. In your error check and ensure that it calculates properly.

You got to have those error checks. You got to review and make sure they're all calculating correctly. And it's not enough to just say, I built the error checks, and then always Assume everything's good, you still need to do some logical checks to make sure. And speaking of that, so when it comes to reviewing and auditing models, you know, in the introduction we mentioned the PAINS approach. So talk to us about that, maybe walk us through those steps and how you use it.

Okay, so for the PAINS approach, I would give you a background story. So at my earlier career, it was very, very difficult for me to balance a model. I've built several models, but then it kept going off balance. It doesn't balance. Then one day at the office, we had the training and David had to review an individual's model. And at that point, David was checking, started from the cash flow, went to the balance sheet, and I was trying to see the movement of cash. And at the end of the day, the model balanced. And I was like, wow, this is a magic. But then now I had to go back to my own model that I've built several years, take it, and I was able to balance it. I was very, very happy that day. And then and I sat down and came up with this particular approach that whenever you want to build your model or the error in your model, it tag pins. The reason that is it is a pin. That particular error is a pin. And for you to be able to review your model, the first part I need to start from is a presentation. Then check the assumption, ensure that it is logical, check the integrity of the model, and then look out for numerical calculation, See that it's well calculated. And then the last thing is that it is well structured and presented.

Yeah. So I'm, I'm curious, in the, you know, as we talk about pains, where do you think most of the problems come from? Is it presentation, assumptions, numerical structure, integrity? What do you most often see?

Well, I wouldn't say assumption, because assumption is subjective, but then I would say numerical because it is in the calculation, how they've linked it and then how they might have done their computation. That is most of the errors that I've seen in hundreds and thousands of models that I've reviewed. It really comes from the numerical.

Sure. And that makes sense. And why do you think that is? Is it because they poorly designed the model? Is it? You know, the Excel skills aren't there, getting too complex with form formulas. Why do you think the errors tend to be numerical? Like what's kind of the root root of why that happens so often?

I rather go with being poorly presented because if you've not presented your model very well and they not linked properly, I think it's also Resulting from linking error as well. So if it is not being calculated very well and then it's not properly linked into the model model, then it's going to be calculating wrongly. I give you an example, a situation where you need to link your capes as an outflow of cash into your cash flow statement. Then you link it as positive. That means that your cash flow from investing will be wrongly computed. So that is just an error that we would need to look out for.

Got it. That, that, that makes sense. That's a good example. All right, so a couple a little more fun questions here. The first one I think is a little bit fun. What's your favorite Excel shortcut?

My best shortcut to me is Control R, Control D. Copy your formula to the right and then copy the formula down.

I am not surprised. That's a very common one for sure. The Control R, Control D. Right. We all want things to be simple. What's the most unique kind of funnest thing you have used Excel for in your personal life? That most unique model or use case?

Well, I've not used any in particular for myself, but then I've built one for someone. So this individual wants to use it to track his expense because he's planning for his wedding. So he wants to be able to track his expense and then his cash flow. And he then requested that I assist him to come up with a tracker. So I came up with that tracker, I sent it to him and then he was able to use that to track his cash flows.

Now so the question is, did he still go over, did he overspend anyway?

Yes, he still wasped, but then it gave him actually a clue as to what is to expect.

Yeah, he was a. He may have overspent, but he was able to quickly see, oh, I've really overspent or I need to rein it in. Yes, we're a little bit over, but I can manage this. Sometimes just seeing the number is eye openening when you're like, wait, I've spent how much? And we all know weddings, you know, and they're a wonderful thing, are notorious for being expensive.

Yeah.

So I like that one. You know, as you look back over your career, what's the number one lesson you've learned that's helped you the most? So maybe advice given experience you had. But that number one lesson that's helped you the most in your career?

For me, it's basically to master the basics and make sure that you always keep things simple. When I started my career building model, I have a Little knowledge of accounting. So I had to start from the basics and then I started building up on it. Building up on it. I knew nothing about Excel at the point when I started, but then getting started from the basic actually assisted me. And I remember that I told you earlier that it was more like taking me from ground zero to more like Grant 80. 80. Right. So it's more like make sure that you know the basic. Once you know the foundation, I can tell you for free that you can easily build up on that.

I love that. There, there's two things I kind of took away in the advice there and that first. Right. Learn the basics. Learning the foundation will benefit you on anything you're doing if you learn the foundation of that process and then focus on keeping it simple. And as I like to say, try to build the model as simple as you can because the business will make your, your end user will make it more complex on you regardless. So don't make it more complex yourself. Others will want to do that for you whether you want it or not.

Yeah. Simplicity is actually very, very key.

Yeah. And you know, one of my favorite sayings is simple is hard, complex is easy. It's often easier to write that big old long nested if statement, but it's not the, it's not the right way to do it. Often you have to really think to make things simple. You have to really understand them. I struggle with it. I mean, I've written plenty of probably formulas that are more complex than they should be over the years. So I really like that advice.

Yeah. One thing is that most times when you build those long formulas, going back to now, troubleshoot them is difficult because you might have even forgotten how you came about this formula. But then at the point of building it, yes, those thinking, thinking through it, they're able to get it. But then coming back to it when I explain, very, very difficult. And that is one thing that I pick from the first standard. I should be able to explain any formula within 24 seconds.

Yeah. So one I really like that a guest on the other day, he goes, you know, make sure you keep your, your formulas simple enough that you can explain them tomorrow, like right the next time at the workbook next week, whenever you actually know what it's doing. Because we've all done that. You finish something, you open it up and you're like, what was I trying to do here? And you spend, you know, 40 minutes trying to unpick the formula you've written. I mean, I've done that plenty. So, all right. We're going to move into our section called Rapid Fire. I'll lay the groundwork of how this works. I know you've listened to some episodes. So you know the basics. No. No consulting answers? No. It depends. You got to pick a side. A yes or no. And then you can elaborate at the end on one or two of them because there's nuance to all of them. I understand that. So the ones you're most passionate about. So, you ready?

Yes.

All right. Circular references, yes or no?

No.

Vba yes or no?

No.

Do you prefer a horizontal model? So lots of worksheets are kind of vertical with all your schedules in one one tab?

Vertical.

Vertical. All right. The Excel dynamic arrays in models. Yes or no?

Inbits, no.

All right, we'll go. No. Got it. External workbook links, yes or no?

No.

No, no, no. Yeah, I often get a double no on that one. Or a hell no. Named ranges, yes or no? I could tell you come from David Brown school of Modeling. I know that's what he was big on is a no. Do you follow a formal standards board? It sounds like you have your own and you fall similar to fast. Is that right?

Yes, you're correct. I follow fast.

Okay. Should financial modelers learn Python in Excel? What do you think?

It depends. Really? And it depends on what you use it to do. So depending on what you do. Yeah, that's fine. But for me, I think I would rather do Excel Power Query and Power bi.

All right. So you think modelers need to learn Power Query? Yes, Yeah, I figured on that one. And then you mentioned Power Bi. You think most of them need to learn that one as well?

Absolutely, yeah. Because as modeler, as a financial analyst, you also analyze and there's a need for you to also visualize your data. So there's a need for you to have a knowledge of as, no Excel, no Power Bi, and also be able to clean your data using Power Query.

I love me some Power Query. I mean, I know basics of Power Bi, but I could definitely get better there. And Python, not so much. But I want to learn it. I just need free time. All right. Will Excel ever die? Going to live forever? Yes or no?

No.

Will AI build the models for us in the future?

Sometimes in the future.

Like it. Do you believe financial models are the number one corporate decision making tool?

Yes.

All righty. And then what's your lookup function of choice? Like choose Vlookup, Index Match, xlookup. Something else.

Index match, match.

All right. Index match match Guy. That's a Pretty common one. We're starting to get a few more of Filter and there's a question, is that a lookup or not? Right. Everybody has an opinion, but I, I think I got offset the other day. Like, yeah, you could do lookups with that. I don't know if that'd be my first choice, but it works. All right. Anything you want to elaborate there? Any of those questions you answered? I know you kind of went back and forth on dynamic arrays a little bit.

Yes, I'll talk about dynamic arrays. And then the reason for that is because I once built a model for someone and then I use xlookup and after sending the model to the client, then he sent a message to me that he has name errors. And I was like, okay, why do you have name error? And it's because of the version of Excel that he's using now. Because it is not compatible with his own version of Excel, he's unable to use it. So as a result of that, I had to lessen and reduce the use of dynamic Array s. I will ask the client, what is the version of Excel that you're using? Before I identify as to if I want to do dynamic array or not. Otherwise I just make it very easy and then use a function that is compatible with any version.

Yeah, no, it's a great point, the compatibility issue. I mean, I know Microsoft would love to be able to have one cloud version globally that everybody's using, but one cloud doesn't use VBA2. There's some challenges around that. So for the foreseeable future, at least, at least short term, we're going to have to deal with version control. And that's so important with dynamic arrays because someone who has 2016 gets your model, opens it up and nothing works. That's a, that's a huge problem. So I, I, I agree with you that that's one area you definitely have to be careful about with dynamic Array. Raise. All right, so we're going to wrap up here. I just have two last questions for you. The first is if you could offer one piece of advice for someone to be a better financial modeler, what would that advice be? What would you be? One thing they could focus on, the.

Advice for an individual will be keep learning, do not relent. You will surely get there. And I break it down. The first thing is that you need to learn the process, learn the foundation, be able to know accounting, finance and Excel. Those are very, very key. Also, you need to be able to pay attention to details models. They're actually very very critical in making decision. And if you do not pay attention to detail, you may make mistake and then that number may then be you can either overcast or undercast and that is very, very strong. So you really need to pay attention to details when you're building your mood up. In summarizing it, make sure that you learn the basics and then pay attention to details.

I really like that, you know, is that always be learning, learn the basics, pay attention to details. Last question. If someone's listening to this podcast and they'd like to get in touch with you or learn more, what's the best way for them to do that?

They can reach out to me on LinkedIn and I'm happy to connect with them.

All right, perfect. Well, we'll make sure to put your LinkedIn in the show notes so people can find it there and appreciate you joining us here this evening. Your evening, my morning to chat. Thank you so much.

Thank you too, Paul.

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