How Finance Leaders Can Transform FP&A Through Vision and Team Culture with Brett Hampson

What's great FP&A?

What it feels like to me when I'm in great FP and A operation is small. Teams are critical for business success. It's less about team size, it's lots about sophistication. It's more about like are these teams driving value for the business partners? You see a healthy company, you probably have a healthy FP and a team sitting behind it, driving it forward.

Is there a key framework in there or methodology you like to do to help make ensure your finance team the people that you manage are proactive.

For me, having a proactive FP and A culture is all about taking a step back and saying what is the ideal vision for FP and A specifically for the four key elements, reporting, analysis, forecasting and business partnering.

How do you know that you have the right team in place?

What's my vision and are the people on my team able to move a piece of the vision forward?

The problem is welcome to another episode of FP&A unlocked. Are you tired of being seen as just a spreadsheet person while others get at a seat at the table? Well then, welcome to FPA Unlock, where finance meets strategy. I'm your host, Paul Barnhurst, AKA the FPA Guy. Each week on this show we like to bring you conversations and practical advice from thought leaders, industry experts and practitioners who are reshaping the role of FP&A in today's business world. Together, we'll uncover the strategies, insights and experiences that separate good FP&A professionals from great ones, helping you elevate your career and drive strategic impact. This week, I'm thrilled to be joined on the show by Brett Hampson. Brett, welcome to the show. Thanks, Paul.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah, really excited to have you. So let me give a little bit of background for Brett. Brett comes to us from Ohio. He spent the last decade in corporate FPA for some of the largest and fastest growing companies in the world. Brett is the author of the book the FPA Operating System and he's founded Forecasting Performance as a way to teach FP and A best practices to others. So, Brett, I want to start with this question. What does great FP&A look like in your mind? What's great FP&A?

That's a tough question because I feel like oftentimes you can feel what great FP&A looks like before you can actually see it. And what it feels like feels like to me when I'm in a great FPA operation is it's proactive, it's efficient, and it's driving value. So what it looks like from the outside, it's hard to tell, but sometimes, like, the teams are small, but those teams, those small teams are critical for business success. So it's, it's less about team size, it's lots about sophistication. It's more about like, are these teams driving value for the business partners? It's almost like a role where, like, you don't know how valuable they are because they're working behind the scenes and working through business partners to drive the value. It's like if you see a healthy company, you probably have a healthy FP and a team sitting behind it, driving it forward.

I really like how you said that. Sitting behind because we're not out front as an fpa. And if a business is performing well, especially of a certain scale where it's large enough to have FP&A, there's probably a good FP&A team behind that. They did a study where they found, based on some criteria they use, they graded a bunch of teams FP and A on, you know, best practice. And they found in general, those companies that graded high on their FPA had faster growth rates, higher profit margins. Which gets to what you say. You could generally see it in the bottom line, right?

And. And you keep the company out of bad news stories. Like so many times in the last few years, you see companies that staff up 5,000 people only to staff down 5,000 people a few months later, and you're like, that's an FP and a pro. Like, it's not exclusively, but you know it when you see it, you know bad when you see it, and you know good when you see it. And it's easy to feel when you're in it. And like, to your point, like, the company results tend to show you the fruit of what I would call like the FP and a tree's labor. It's like a healthy tree is going to bear healthy fruit. Just look for the fruit and you'll see it.

I love that example. And I think, you know, to go with that, you have to have a healthy culture or company as a whole for FP and A to really be able to show those results. Because I've worked in companies where I felt like we had good fpa, but we had just a really toxic company that made bad decisions. And so you didn't see it in the results per se, even though I think we had a really good FPNA function given the environment. So I think it's kind of that Symbiotic relationship. Good company and good FPA tend to go together. If you don't have one or the other, you're going to end up with problems.

Yeah, couldn't agree more.

All right, so I want to start with. You wrote a book called the FPA operating System. Kind of talk about that. Why'd you write the book? Let's start there.

Yeah, great question. So probably five or so years into my career, I had a mentor who's now like the chief operating officer at some company. He's doing big things, but he, at the time, he was like a VP of sales who I was supporting as an FPA business partner. And he came to me one day and it was like a little mentor session. I think he could tell, like, hey, you're gonna be good at your job. And he challenged me one day and he said, what's the Brett playbook? He's like, as you become a leader. I think I was talking to him about leadership or growing my career further. He's like, the next thing for you is creating more versions of yourself who are running around getting the same impact that you would do, but you've got to work through other people. And so he's like, what's the playbook for Brett? And I was like, okay, that's a really interesting question. But the way he framed it, too, is like, in the sales world, like sales playbooks, that's a very common thing. Finance, we don't talk about it. So I made this connection. I think he was pushing me into. It was, hey, if you can document your SOPs, your processes, your playbook, you can start to replicate that within your team. So all I did, this FPA operating system book that I wrote is literally just like, everything that I've learned on, like, how to do the FP and a job well. Everything from reporting to analysis to forecasting to business partnership. Setting a vision for a team, executing that vision. Prioritization. How to create, like a prioritization roadmap for your team and then execute against those parties. It's like literally everything you need to run an efficient high value FP and a operating system into just as many pages as it took in order to do that. So there's obviously like, micro decisions you have to make every day, but the book was really just like, what are the large things that I'm working towards? The cool thing about the book was like, I hadn't actually put this on paper before, but. But that mentor forcing me to put it on paper actually was. I was like, whoa, wow.

This.

There's actually, there's a process here, there's a repeatable process for if you haven't run a high value efficient FPA operating system and you, and then you then learn to run one and put it on paper, you can actually replicate it over and over and over again. So then throughout the rest of my career, like ever since then, that was probably five, seven years ago, I've been able to take that same playbook. I don't reread the book, but it's like it's all up in my head. I'm just running the same playbook over and over and over again. Taking teams from, I call it like reactive to proactive. That value added, efficient, everything we just talked about earlier, that's what the playbook has helped me to do. But originally it was literally just how do I get it out of my head so I can teach my team this as I'm getting a larger and larger team working for me.

Got it. So really it started as how do I get what I have in my head on paper? And got turned into a book at the end of the day. And so is there. You've talked a lot about helping teams be proactive. Is there a key framework in there or methodology you like to do to help make ensure your finance team, the people that are under you, that you manage, are proactive?

Yeah, that's a good question. I feel like a lot of FP and A teams, the main issue that you'll find is they will fall victim to, I'll call it the squeaky wheel impact. So if you've got a business partner who wants something a certain way, or they need something, or the business is putting on pressure on you to get something specific, oftentimes that thing is not perfectly or directly lined up to like what's going to be the most value added thing for the company. So what happens with a lot of folks who are in FP and A who are great at serving their business partners, being in great relationship with them, doing great analytics for them, building reports for them, is they're often doing that stuff in the wrong direction so they're not pushing it towards where the company needs it the most. So then what happens is if you go down that path for long enough, you sort of don't impact the business the way that you should. So I think for me, having a proactive FPA culture is all about taking a step back and saying what is the ideal vision for FP&A? Like, what is the ideal vision specifically for the four Key elements in my FP and a operating system which is reporting, analysis, forecasting and business partnering. If you can set a concrete vision for each one of those four and then look at where your team is at today and then start to move towards that vision, you will become a proactive FP and a organization. You won't get thrown aside by shiny objects or this, hey, change the report color from red to green like I wanted to change the columns retype like all that's so small and so inconsequential. But if you set your own vision, you take a step back and you really think about, like I said, reporting, analysis, forecasting and consulting and you move towards those four, you will become a proactive FPA organization. So I know that was a little bit complex, but like if you set that vision, you look at your current state and you just map out the path to get there, I found that that's the best framework that I use to drive that proactive FP and A organization.

It sounds a lot to me like some of these same maturity models they have out there where you assess yourself on anywhere from three to six different elements. You have four in your case, reporting, consulting or business partnering, forecasting and analysis. Analysis. Thank you. It's up my mind for a minute. There's. And so you're just saying, okay, what, what do I need to meet my objectives for the company? What would it look like in each of these? Where others may say, okay, high performing are able to do these things and you set out a path to get there. It sounds like a similar method, a little different approach, but same basic idea. Would that be a good summary?

Yeah. And the hardest part, it sounds easy to say, well, okay, just put the vision on a piece of paper for reporting. But like literally, like if you're listening to Stop this podcast, try to try to put your vision for FP and a reporting on a piece of paper in a couple of sentences. Because you're going to sit there and go, should it be automated? Should it not be automated? Should I be spending 30% of my time or 70% of my time? Like you're going to have to work through some really complex questions to get to like a fundamental. Here's what I think it should look like. So you're trying to get to these, like should statements reporting should be automated, should it not? And so you're going to work through these in order to get to your vision. And then once you have clarity on that vision, the rest is easy. The rest is just steps and tactics to get there. But getting that concrete vision is actually the hard part. And like, yeah, just like if you can get there, you can become proactive. I think that's where a lot of FP and A teams go sideways, is they actually don't have a vision for where they're going. They're just doing work. And I, like, just have a fundamental belief that that is the issue, root cause issue of a lot of FP and A teams not being proactive is a lack of vision.

Yeah, I think it was. It was either last year or the year before. I can't remember now. We did a training with the company where it was their finance department for one of the teams. They got the person's now the CFO of the whole company. And we came in and helped them establish a mission vision. What were the behaviors that went with that? So it was the organization as a whole. And we spent a good, you know, day on that. It wasn't just a simple no, because every group came up with different ideas. Then they had to debate it as a group, like, well, is this the right word? Should we add this? Which one do we like best? And it take. It takes time to come up with something that's meaningful, that everybody can get behind.

Right. And gives you enough structure to tell you where to go. But not so much structure that you get paralyzed by every little decision. Like, it's a. It's a worthwhile exercise. I encourage anybody who wants to be an FPA leader in any capacity, whether it's even an individual contributor who's leading their little team or a leader, like a CFO of an organization. If you can do this and put this on paper, I find that oftentimes you are five or six steps ahead of others who cannot do this. It's just a skill. So like practicing it, trying it out, it takes a day, it takes a week. You're going to reflect on it. It takes a while to get it, but once you get it, you can actually start to move in the correct direction based on what you believe is correct.

Yeah, thanks, I appreciate that. So I want to ask a next question. I'm not a huge fan of this term, but it feels like for the last two decades, we've all heard it probably a million times. Finance transformation. Got to get that new technology and transform your department. You talked about when we were getting ready for this episode, the idea of grassroots FP&A transformations and how you like that better than what we often hear today and often comes from, hey, buy the latest technology and we'll transform your department. So talk about what is the grassroots FP and a transformation.

I think I share a similar dislike for that phrase. I've sort of avoided it too for a long time. And what I want to do is actually reclaim the phrase finance transformation, but in this kind of grassroots way. So the way that it works today, as as you pointed out, is a CFO feels that their team is not proactive, they're reactive, they're overstaffed, whatever it might be. They have cultural issues and they want to get better at it. The problem is the CFO from the top down can only pull a few levers. You can staff up, you can staff down, you can implement technology. There might be one or two smaller levers, but those are really the levers you have. The easiest one to do is implement a new technology. The problem is technology doesn't solve problems. Sometimes it will solve some problems, but sometimes it will create new problems. And dropping technology on an unhealthy culture doesn't fix the culture problem. It maybe fixes the technology problem, and in some cases it's the right move. So I'm not discounting that. But it's usually the only lever from the top down that a CFO can pull. What I advocate for is a little bit of what I was talking about with the operating system, which is like, how do you empower everybody who's on the front lines doing the work or leading the teams doing the work to come up with their own vision and move towards that vision in a way that's specific, unique, and actually solves the problems that they specifically have that might require technology at a local level, a small bite sized piece of technology. It's not some massive ERP system overlay. Again, that might be the answer one day, but at each local level, you might have a small little software tool that you can implement that's a few thousand dollars a month for solving a very specific problem that you need help solving. But this grassroots finance transformation effort, in my mind, is all about looking at your process, every single person in every single seat, and saying, what are my gaps to achieving my vision? So it requires every single person going through what I was talking about with setting that vision and then moving step by step towards actually achieving that vision. If every single person does that from the ground up, the entire organization's culture changes without some massive overlay. Top down technology, in my opinion, I've seen that work really well as I've held enough different roles on enough different teams and implemented the same system over and over. You can start to see the entire department or organization start to shift, start to become more proactive, start to reach that, that really valuable end state where you're efficient, you're adding value, your forecasts are accurate enough like you can get there over time. It's a slower moving process, but it's free to do this bottoms up level transformation work. It's harder but I think it's actually more valuable to changing the long term culture of an organization.

I really like the way you said that, you know, starting with the bottom, the whole operating system, the mission vision. I've always said it's people, you know, process and then technology or some say platform. Right. The three P's. If you start with technology, it's not going to solve your problems. It may address immediate pain points, but it's not going to create a high performing organization that it comes through the right people with the right skill set having that process, that continuous process mindset. And then you can achieve even more when you implement technology that allows you to be more efficient. So you're not spending all your time cleaning data because we've all been there where you may have great people but the systems are so bad that you're still going to spend most your time cleaning data which prevents you from really focusing on your strategy, your mission, the moving the business forward.

Yes, exactly. And I think I'm intentionally de emphasizing technology because. Because the pendulum has swung way too far in my opinion. Way too far in a tech only. That's how you transform. I'm intentionally going a little bit further the other way and saying put technology in last. Like I challenge you. Think about your process, the product that you create, the people that you hire. What kind of talent are you bringing in? How are you ascending the right talent? How are you rewarding them? How are you retaining them? Like those are the more I think more important questions that are easy to. That's hard work. Which is why grassroots FPA transformation is not easy. But I think it's the right way. If somebody's willing and patient enough, I think it's the right way to transform an organization. Then bring technology in at the last minute and solve very specific problems that you have.

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I agree with you. The if I have to pick, I'm always going with people and process. Yep. And you know what's interesting though, is I don't think most people see it that way. I did a poll on LinkedIn one time where I asked most people if they had the tools and technology to do their job to meet the business's need. And overwhelmingly people said no. Why do you think that is? Why do you think so many people are like, well, I can't do my job because of the technology.

Yeah, it's tough. We talked about it too. Like, FP and A is the glue. It's sort of behind the business. I say this, it's kind of controversial for folks, and I'm okay with that. I say finance is a cost center. I get that. We do drive value through the business, but at the end of the day, if you're looking to invest the next dollar in a business, it's often going to go towards marketing, product, sales, engineering, something that more directly influences revenue or net income for the business. Finance tends to be at least a couple rows back in that line. We're almost never going to lead an organization in our tech solutions. What's worse is companies are having to change so rapidly nowadays from like a marketing sales standpoint. Every, every company out there is trying new tech because they're trying to grow faster, they're trying to grow more profitably. So they're changing the tech systems underneath. And finance, at its core is just a data function. We bring data and information forward to the business to make better decisions. So if they're changing their technology and we don't have budget to do good technology, we're just, we're like three steps behind already. So, so, like, I get it. And there's no, there's no right answer. There's, there's no easy answer. I think for finance leaders, it's all about like, how do you have a vision for that? How do you just sit in that for a minute and go, we're never going to be the first. We're never going to have the best What's a flexible solution we can implement that's going to help us to be more efficient? Can we offset the cost by doing something less of something? Maybe we have a technology that instead of staffing up three people over the next two years, we staff up one person. But we implement this technology at the same time. Like I think it takes a little bit more of a thoughtful long term approach and having a finance leader, cfo, whoever's making the decision, who's well equipped to make that decision. Technology is changing really fast nowadays too, so. So what you implement today may not be the best thing for you in three years, but you just don't know that unless you've like steeped in this technology culture, which I would argue a lot of CFOs and finance leaders just aren't until they have to. So there's a lot of reasons why. But, but I get it and I see it and, and I think that's why fpa, we become like Swiss army knives. We can kind of work with anything. That's why Excel is such like a valued tool because it can kind of do anything. So we become the type of person who it's like, well, that system's kind of broken. That system's kind of broken. I don't really trust that data. But I can bring you something together that I, that I actually kind of believe in. We're really good at that. And that's like, that's our bread and butter. So. So like our down the downfall, which is not having great technology or data or whatever actually becomes our strength. If we can kind of just sit back, acknowledge it and then lean into it and tell people, hey, if I had this tool, I could have done so much more for you. But this is my limitations and here's what I'm able to bring you with the time and the capacity that I have.

Great answer. A lot to unpack there. So I'll start with your comment about cost center. I've never liked when people say finance is a revenue center. We don't generate revenue.

Right.

I will often use the term value creation or value creation cost center. Y. We're to help create value. We don't generate the value. I mean the business does. We help them create it. And so yes, can we help bring profit? But like you said, we're never going to be the first in line for investment unless it's regulatory.

Yep.

Or things are so broken that it impacts the rest of the business. Right. It's just finance that's broken. Rarely ever are they gonna be, oh yeah, yeah, we'll give the first dollars to you guys. There's a reason almost every study shows that finances last when it comes to technology. As far as behind the other departments and using it. There are some other reasons we tend to be risk adverse. And you're a public company, you better be sure whatever you're implementing is going to be right. Where if you make a mistake on a marketing email, not, not a huge deal, you get someone's name wrong or whatever. But if you release something publicly and your financials are wrong, yeah, someone's probably getting fired. Right. So there is, there's other reasons for it as well, but I think a big part of it is, like you said, we're just not going to be first in line. And so developing that mindset to be kind of the Swiss army knife is often what we have to do out of necessity and then make those strategic bets on the technology where it's going to drive the most value over time because it can make a huge difference. And I'm with you. I've given it some thought of why do so many people think they don't have the tools? It's because, well, they probably don't have the tools to do everything they want. But you don't have clean data either. Nobody does. And so I think sometimes we have to change that mindset to say I can be efficient in what I'm doing, I can deliver good value to the business. Even though I may not have good systems. I had to learn that in one role that I had where I spent a good year finally getting, actually probably almost 18 months till I finally got the data and the model to the point where I really felt I could hold the business accountable because it was just so terrible and we did not have money for systems. Our, our investors were not going to spend it, so you just had to figure it out on the, on the back end.

Yeah. And there's, honestly, even within Excel, there's so much greatness. Things like Power, Query, even at a minimum, like that's a game changer. If I had that when I was an analyst, like that would be, it's night and day from what we had. So I think like, yeah, it's to your point, it's, it's adopt the mindset of like, this won't be perfect. I will never have perfect data. I think a lot of times we like to say, like when I have. Forget that you're not going to have perfect, you'll never. There's probably not a company out there that's going to have perfect data because.

Or.

Or they will, but it's a dying company and they haven't changed in 30 years, so they've had a chance to catch up the data. Cool. But it's probably not where you want to work anyway. Like, they probably don't actually need good FP and A. So any company that's like, worth your time and energy is going to have messiness. So I say, like, become the person. Build your brand around being the person who can walk into a messy situation and create clarity out of it. That now that's what you can build a career on. That's what people like. Your name will spread like wildfire if you become that person. So I hear you too. Like, a lot of folks are like, I don't have the data and tools I need. I. I'm so frustrated. For me, I'm like, cool. This, this is not an easy thing. Let me do the hard thing. And if I can do the hard thing, I can start to win and my brand can start to show through based on the results I can get. Everybody knows how messy it is. Everybody's talked about how messy it is. Let me talk about how I cleaned it up a little bit and like, move the ball forward. So I think it's an opportunity. Like, and I'm not just trying to spin it that way. That's literally how I operate is like, if it's not going to change, like, what am I going to do? I either I need to change or I need to find something new.

Really, that's what it comes down to. If, if you're not going to get the systems you want, you're not happy. You either need to change your perspective in the company you're working for or finding a company because you're not going to be proactive, productive if you're an environment where you get caught up. And it's easy to do. In finance complaint, as I like to joke, I saw this quote and it was around data science, but it changes to finance. How do you summarize an FPA professional job? And it was, you spend 80% of your time cleaning data and 20% complaining about the data you're cleaning. And I was like, yeah, that sometimes feels like the job. There are definitely days when that feels like that's all you've done.

Two, like, if you've built a brand where people trust you and people are like, wow, he makes something out of nothing. It's, it's, it was dirty and now it's clean. And this Guy keeps helping us out. And if you've got a brand and people trust it, that last 20% of like, hey, guys, I could have done this 10 times faster if we had clean data or a better system. Just FYI, if you say that enough times, the people trust you. The people in power will be like, hey, like, what can we buy you? Like, we want to keep you, want to keep you happy. Like, at some point somebody's going to wake up and go, we need better systems. I've heard this enough times. We could have done this way faster. And the person I trust that's doing the work tells me that they've got a solution and they're ready to book a demo as soon as I say, okay, like, there's ways that you can move this ball forward. And I think, unfortunately though, it starts with 18 months of cleaning up data and finally getting it to a spot where people can trust you, trust your judgment around the situation.

Yeah, 18 months, 12 months, whatever it is that the company. But it takes some time. It's not going to happen from day one. Huge fan of Power Query. Generative AI can help now you got Python in Excel. Copilot starting to work with Python. I mean, what, what can be done now, even just two years ago, three years ago, if you're willing to invest is huge and you can really start to make a difference. I mean, the first person I hired when I became a director and I really got promoted as a director because of what I was able to do with Power Query of cleaning up data and delivering insights that nobody could because it was such a mess, they were, you know, so impressed as I hired a data person. I didn't hire a finance person, didn't want anything to do with finance, but I knew I needed to offload fixing the data to someone who could help manage it in the environment I was in. So that was the very first hire I did. And within a month the, the CFO is like, hey, can we use them for all the other departments? Wait, that was supposed to be my person?

Yep. Hey, yeah, it takes, it takes some risk and it takes some, like, I'm willing to step into the mess and try to make clarity out of the mess. And technically there's potential failure there. But like, worst case scenario, you also don't do what the last five people behind you haven't been able to do. Okay, not the worst thing. Best case scenario, you're able to make some sort of step forward and people look at you as like, oh, he did what they couldn't do. So it's not always about comparison, but, like, think about the pros and cons of stepping into that sort of, like, challenge is what I, I view it as.

And I like how you said that. Look at the pros and cons. What do you have to lose? Digging in and really focusing on that can make a big difference. But I want to step back for a minute. We've talked quite a bit about data. You know, how do you know that you have the right team in place before we talk processes? How do you ensure you have the right team and the right skills? Because we talk transformation. I think grassroots. It's going to start with the people and the culture before processes or technology. So how do you make sure you have that in a good place?

I've largely not found that there's a team out there that doesn't have the right makeup of people or kind of people. I think oftentimes what the people are missing is a common vision or a roadmap on how to get there and somebody who's willing to advocate for them to help them get there. So I think oftentimes people like, they've all got their. Every single person in this world has a strength and a superpower. Like, that's. I'm just fully convinced of that. It's our job as leaders to pull that out of them. So we may not have like every, every skill set that we ever could want on our team today, but, like, what do we have? So then therefore, what can we move forward? What are people passionate about? So for me, it's a little bit more about, like, how do I draw that superpower out of the person and then move that piece of the vision forward. And then let's say that person goes and rotates to another team, whatever. I get somebody new, they've got a new superpower. So then I can kind of use that superpower to move something forward. And after a couple years of doing that, if you stay with the team long enough, the whole team will have moved forward because you've rotated people, you've developed people. People are using their superpower to move the team forward. So I think, yeah, for me, it's less about, like having the right team or the right makeup. And maybe I've just gotten lucky. But there's different, there's different ideas on how to structure a team. That's best. The problem is, like, as a company scales and as a finance team scales, you have to think about it so differently. A one person vp organ, like one person vp of finance team. Is very different than a 10 person fp and a team. And like the path from one to the other isn't linear as well. It's not like you add this role and then you add this role and then you add. It's you add this role in this role and then you've got to like shift it a little bit and then you add this role in this role and then you probably shift, oh, add a manager role, then you add this role and this like it's not a linear path and you've got to adapt with the change of the business. So I think like more than anything it's like, especially if you come in fresh to a team and you're a new leader. What's my vision and are the people on my team able to move a piece of the vision forward? And if so, let's start there and then we can evaluate what skill sets don't we have that we need to go buy or build within our team.

So again, what I'm hearing is it comes back to the leadership, the vision and finding out how each person can contribute to that. With the team you have, as a general rule, you should have a team that will allow you to get started and move forward. Occasionally you may have to replace someone or have someone that's not a good fit. But I would agree with you. Everybody has a superpower. There is some strength they have. How do you tap into that within the team you have.

Yeah, yeah. No perfect science there. And I think that's why leadership is such a highly coveted skill set. Because you have to. It's people, you're working with people, a changing business environment. How do you be, how do you bridge that gap? How do you enable the people to move the business forward? I haven't found a formula that works except for walk in, assess the situation, take a shot, and if something doesn't work, you pivot, you try something new.

I like it relatively simple. You see that you kind of plan, assess the situation, act and adjust. Yep. Not rocket science.

Nope.

Good leaders are pretty rare. Yeah, I'd say at least great leaders. Maybe there's a lot of average to good leaders out there, but great leaders are rare and it's because they have that ability to tap into people's superpowers and get the most out of.

Yep.

We've probably all worked for. I'm guessing you work for somebody, you're like, I'd run through a brick wall for that person.

Yep.

And then you've worked for others where you're like, I can't wait till the day I'm on another team.

Yep.

And one could, the one that's you're you want to get out of could be a lot better technically, could have a lot more experience. But they just don't bring out that leadership.

Right, right. They don't have a clear vision there. May be over responsive to business partners. I'll put it that way. Maybe they don't, they don't stand their ground when it comes to hey, we're over capacity. We need some support. Like a great leader sort of runs that line of defense but also sets the vision and paves the way for the people to go like to your point, like step into that space where they can help drive the vision forward. So yeah, it's all I think a lot of it's intuition. I wish I could teach it. Cause if I could teach it, I'd probably be in a different line of work.

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You mean if you turn everybody into a great leader and we are all fabulous at it, you could make a lot of money that way. I'd come join your business. I'll teach your, your, your mom. Figure it out.

There you go.

Perfect.

I love it.

All righty, Great. Well, now that we have our new business idea down, let's talk process. We've talked quite a bit about people, we've talked about technology. Where do you start with processes? How do you build that culture and mindset to have a team that's Process oriented.

So I'm like a two trick pony. I was talking to Paul about this earlier. I've got two tricks. One trick is my FPA operating system. I love it. Sort of documented everything I know as I was documenting that, I felt this gap inside of me that was like, this is great, but it doesn't tell me how. The FPA operating system is a very. It's a what and a why, but what's the how? So I came up with this framework called the FP and a Flywheel. And it's my call it the step by step. How do you work out that FP and a operating system? And what I'm finding that continues to be proven correct throughout my entire career is that FP and A can be boiled down to a certain set of steps and tasks that need to be done every month. Largely. Call it 80% of companies share it. 80% of FP and a team share the same tasks. So like what are those 80% of tasks that are common, critical and value added that we need to be spending more time doing to drive the business forward? So I think part of my process answer is like, you've got to understand the 80% that drives the business forward. Then you've got to look at the rest and say, this is the rest of the 20%. If it doesn't drive the business forward, we should either eliminate or make it as efficient as humanly possible. So I think step one for me is you literally line up the monthly cycle with an FPA or the quarterly cycle or the annual cycle and you say, what are the critical steps in every single one of those? So it's a little bit tedious, but once you've identified those, you say how do I, how do I pour gasoline on those? How do we emphasize those? How do we spend more time on these? Which is super counter to like what most people talk about with FP&A, where they're like, get more efficient, get more efficient. I'm here to say get more efficient on the things that don't matter, but get, get less efficient on the things that do matter. Spend the time, print out the report, literally print it out and sit down and read it and analyze it row by row. Use a ruler. I used to use a ruler with a pen and I would circle things that seemed out of pattern and be like, okay, got to talk to so and so about this. You could automate that. Sure. But like it's better if you don't. It's better if you sit down and study. Use your brain to study that kind of stuff. So things like, right. Root cause analysis is one of the most critical things that FP&A can do to add more value to the business. So therefore, we need to spend more time in that. Well, in order to spend more time doing root cause analysis, I think everybody would raise their hand and say, I wish I had more time for that. You got to look at the rest of the cycle and say, well, where am I spending too much time that I don't need to be? What can I automate? What could I streamline? What could I eliminate? What could I push back on business partners? What could I work with, prioritization with my boss, key stakeholders, to make sure that I'm doing less of that so I could do more of the stuff that actually drives the value. So for me, it's all about that FP and a flywheel and understanding the monthly cycle, the quarterly cycle, the annual cycle, finding the spots that are the most value added and putting those in the jar first and then taking out the stuff that doesn't matter or reducing it as much as humanly possible.

You said put it in the jar. I couldn't help but think of Stephen R. Covey and his golf ball example, right? You know, where you, you pour it all the, you put, put all the rocks in after. If the golf balls are in there first, it fits, put the rocks in, then try to put the important stuff after. And it doesn't sit.

Exactly. Yeah. So, yeah. So if you identify the 80% that drives the most value, you put that in the jar first, you're gonna say, oh, I gotta get to that other sand that's out there, all the requests, all the ad hoc stuff. And I'm like, I promise you that stuff can wait. It's urgent. It's actually not important. And if you wait an extra week, sometimes it just goes away. So I think a lot of folks will spend all of their time on the fire drills and the, the ad hoc requests that feel so urgent. But if you actually stop and you put the most important stuff in the jar first, sure, you can sneak in that little stuff around it when you've got a little bit extra time, but if you do it the other way around, it just doesn't work. So that's when I think, process. That's what I'm thinking is like, what's the value added stuff? What's the low value stuff? And it's simple. Increase the value added, decrease the low value.

Couldn't have said it better, right? Decrease that low value. The time you're spending, focus on the high value that will help you be more efficient in an organization. And when I say efficient, we're talking about driving value. Not necessarily, hey, this thing I spent a lot of time on, I've reduced the amount of time I spent. You may spend more time on it if it's that important. And that's fine because it's a value add activity where you should be spending your time. All right, so, you know, I have just one or two more questions and then we're going to move into kind of our standard sections that we have. So I'd love to know how have you used kind of that grassroots FP and a transformation in your roles? Like, what's the first thing you do when you go into a new organization or. Or a new role with a team? Kind of walk through maybe an example of how you've utilize these things. We've talked about the operating system, the flywheel and your.

I'll go back to where I first started to develop some of these. I walked into a role in a large organization where I didn't realize it when I walked in, but I found out pretty quickly after we were being evaluated on our forecast accuracy every month or every quarter, whenever the forecast was due. So I didn't know this, but my senior leaders were getting a report card that had me next to it and said how accurate I was and how good my storyline was. So I very quickly said, thank you for that. I'm going to reverse engineer exactly how to win at this game. So it became a game to me. So it wasn't just like, I'm doing work, I'm putting a forecast together. And when I walked into that team, I was in, they said tier three, but I was in the lowest. I was in the bottom third of all the different business units in accuracy. So I walked in, couldn't have gotten worse, and I went, okay, we need to turn this around. So all we did was we like. And this is like kind of a small example of it. But you look at, okay, what's the biggest driver of my forecast accuracy missing? So you, you like almost back into your attribution of like net income. Okay, well, what's the biggest driver of net income? Okay, well, revenue is often the biggest driver. Okay, so my revenue forecast is wrong. Well, sure enough, it is. And if I look back over the last three months, like it was not a good forecast. So it's like, okay, what's driving it to be wrong? And so you're just breaking it down into the driver based component. So you're getting into driver based forecasting, but you analyze how you forecast so and then all of a sudden what emerges is here's the three things that if I got better at these three picks, the whole forecast becomes 80% better. So it's back to our last conversation, which is like, how do you put the most value added stuff in first? There's usually 20% of the stuff that drives 80% of the value. So I'm always looking for that 80%. I sort of accidentally learned this on the job when I got a bad report card and had to turn it around. And so I think it was like six months later we were in tier one with our forecast accuracy because we've just like doubled down on the biggest pieces that were going to drive the entire net income forecast of being on or off and how much percentage we were missing. So for me, like that's maybe a small example of an early win where I went, wait a minute, you can break this thing down into just attribution, small goals, and then slowly work towards what's the analysis I need to drive a better forecast. What processes in place do I need to like, get the right information from the right person at the right time to have a better customer churn, forecaster, new customer for whatever it is, whatever the piece that was actually driving it. And what it does is allows you to put this like tunnel vision on that. You say, I'm not going to talk about anything else, I'm not going to look at anything else except for the things that I'm being graded on. So I think it's almost maybe a helpful like metaphor for people to say, what am I being graded on? And you get to create your own report card. By and large, in FP and A, there's no report card out there. My situation was unique. I had a report card on me. But by and large we don't have a report card. So you get to sit down and it goes back to that vision conversation. You define the vision. So therefore you define the scorecard and then you get to define the tactics and steps that it takes for you to get from where you are to that vision, which is the report card. So then what are you going to do exclusively and focus on in order to get there. And it allows you to have that tunnel vision and say, I'm going to say no to everything else and I'm just going to focus on these things. And you've just got to trust the process. If I do these 10 things, I will get to the vision and usually you get pretty darn close. And if you don't hit it right on, you're within a couple inches of that thing and you're high fiving anyway. So I think that's an early win that I had that I think kind of cemented this realization that like, oh, this can be a process, this can be linear, I can work towards it. There's roadblocks along the way. Obviously you got to veer left and right, but generally you're still going in the same direction.

You got to adjust. But in the example you gave, increasing forecast accuracy, you have a very clear of where you're going, regardless of what gets in the way. You always know that North Star and you know the key drivers once you've done your root cause analysis. So it's always going back to that and saying, okay, where's the breakdown? What's causing this to be less accurate? And if I improve that, the numbers will get better.

Yeah. And we could argue all day if that's even the right metric forecast accuracy. Right. But the, I think the beauty of it was it was, it was measurable, it was quantifiable. I could see it on a piece of paper what percentage net income was off from what my forecast was and what tier that put me in compared to my peers. It was very objective. So I challenge people, as you're thinking through this, if, if you're thinking like I want to do this, well, think of some metrics that you can put in place for your specific vision. So one I like is like reporting automation. I like to come up with should statements like what should reporting automation be at from a percentage? Just call it percentage. Should 80% of reports be automated? 70, 90. Think through it. But like, once you think through it, put a goal out there. And once you put a goal out there, then go look at your reports and say, which ones of these should I, or could I automate which ones make sense? And you'll work through that and then you can move towards that. And so same thing with analysis. How many pieces of analysis should my team come up with every month? Well, I like to say each person presents one root cause analysis every month. If you do that and you've got a decent sized team, you're producing a ton of analysis that's driving the business forward every month. Should your, your forecast be accurate within 5%, 10%, who knows? But like, put a goal out there and start to move towards it. I think sometimes those objective, concrete goals, those numerical goals actually help to Move us versus like more of a theoretical how it should feel.

There's a reason they use the term smarter for goals. You want to be able to measure it. And we could have a whole episode on forecast accuracy and should that be a major goal or not? And there'd be lots of different opinions. But we'll, since we're near the end of our time, we'll save that for another episode because I think everybody has strong opinions on that. And that might be a fun LinkedIn Live to do sometime. Get a few people and have a lively debate on that one, because there are some strong opinions for sure. All right, so I'm going to move into some standard FPA questions we like to ask. These are just real quick answers. Get your first thought. What is the number one technical skill for FPA professionals to master?

I think it goes back to what we just talked about. But attribution analysis, if you are able to break down, like, what's causing this into the actual attribution, the causation, causational attribution analysis, like you could do anything. Doesn't matter what tool you're using, doesn't matter. Anything that wins, in my opinion.

All right, what's the number one soft skill or human skill?

It's like in this, probably in this vein of like, storytelling or storylining results. If you can create a compelling story. Humans love stories. So if you can create a compelling story, people will gravitate towards listening to you. They'll come to you for the story, if you can tell a good story. So I love that one.

Next one. If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about fpa, what would you change?

That's a tough one. If I could wave a magic wand and change One thing about FP&A, I think. I think it would have to be how. How much we tend to focus on ourselves as a department. So everything I've talked about, I'm going to be. I'm going to be super controversial to myself. Everything I've talked about is improving FP and A. But at the end of the day, we're driving the business forward, so it matters more about what the business is doing. I think oftentimes we can get so introspective and about our tools, about our technologies, that we forget to go look at the business model that we're supporting and actually truly understand the business. A lot of people are great at that. Bravo to them. But a lot of people just kind of stay in our FPA world. And I think that's the One thing that I change is I'd almost like require a rotation in the business in order to do FP and A effectively over a long period of time.

I've said it many times and I'll say it again here. After having run my own business for two and a half years and having been in the business before I went into FP&A, if I went back today, I would be a better FP professional from what I've learned from seeing all these different aspects of the business. Yep. I've always said one of the best things you can do is a rotation in operations, whether it's sales operations, you know, go to market revenue, wherever it might be. It gives you a real appreciation that you can't get from just.

Yep, agreed. Couldn't agree more. Yeah, I think my early role rotations in like a product organization, even accounting, was a great one because I got to see like actually how the income statement was created. I was the one posting the journal entries. So being on this side of the fence, I'm like, oh, I know the people who do that. And like, I can analyze it in a way that's just a little bit deeper than everybody else. So I think that's what you get is you get, you get this rich depth. No matter what rotation you do, you're going to find that like it's going to pay dividends in the future.

Agreed. All right, we're going to move on to the get to know you section. So we have a few questions to get to know more about Brett here. We've talked plenty of fba. We've learned all about that. So what's a hobby or passion that you have? What, what do you like to do in your free time?

I don't have free time, Paul. I've got a. I knew you were.

Going to say that. I know you have a two year old.

I've got a two year old. I've got another on the way. So my hobbies and my passions right now is taking care of the house, getting the nursery set up, and I'm generally just like a hobby hopper. And I'd say I'm in between hobbies right now. So like I grew up playing guitar, mountain biking, doing triathlon. Like I'm in between hobbies. So I'm looking for a new one. I'm thinking golf might be my next one. I grew up golfing as well, so I might just pick that back up. But we'll see, we'll see. Check back in like six months and I might have a New hobby.

All right, we'll check back with you on that one. If you could recommend one book to our audience, what book are you going to recommend outside of your FPA operating system, of course.

Of course. No, honestly, I'm going to go in the business world and, like, business books are a dime a dozen, but there's one that's, like, I continue to go back to over and over again, and it's called the Heart of Business by Hubert Jolly. So he was the Best Buy turnaround story. I think it was 2012. They were about to go bankrupt. But the way he did it was, like, through people and process, kind of like we've been talking about today. It was not a tech implementation. It was not mass layoffs on day one. It was like a. It's like a beautiful blueprint for, like, how to run a real business full of, like, real people. So there might be a little bit of revisionist history in that book, but I absolutely love that book. I think anybody can pick up, like, amazing leadership lessons from that.

Right? Give us the name one more time just so everybody gets it.

The Heart of Business.

Heart of Business Turnaround story of Best Buy. Yep.

Hubert Jolly. I might be getting that wrong, but I believe he's the author.

Okay, perfect. Great. What's your favorite travel destination? If you go anywhere in the world tomorrow, where are you going?

I would go to Italy. I've never been, so this is sort of like, an unfair answer. Never been. But, like, it's like, deep down within me, I know I'm gonna love it. And my wife's been a bunch, so, like, she's like, yes, I can confirm you are going to love it. But, like, generally, anywhere with a beach and. And sunshine, I'm happy.

Yeah. So wait, you're in Ohio and you want a beach in sunshine? Am I missing something here?

No, you're not. Real estate prices are a little. A little better in Cincinnati than they were in Denver when I lived there. So. And we've got family here in Ohio, so, like, we made an intentional decision to be close to family, and I don't regret that at all. Cincinnati is great, too. I don't tell people I'm from Ohio. I tell people I'm from Cincinnati because in my mind, it's a lot different. A cool town.

I. I get. I haven't been to Cincinnati, and I don't live near the ocean, too. I totally get living near family. So we all make those. The balance of all those different decisions. If you could have dinner with one person in the world that's alive. Who would you pick and why?

It's not a cop out answer. It's my real answer. I would honestly pick my wife and my family and like, I'm, I'm a bit of a homebody. I love, like, I love hanging out with my family, especially having a 2 year old who's like, she'll say the wildest things or do the wildest things over the dinner table. So for me, like, if I'm having dinner with them, I'm happy. I'm not, I'm not much of a star chaser either. So, like, I don't get all worked up about other people and their fame. Like, I'd rather just focus on kind of the people that are right next to me.

Great. There's a lot to learn from that answer. I think you, you said it well. All right, we're gonna head up to the wrap wrap up section here. Just have two more questions for you. I'll let you go first is what advice would you have for our audience to be a better FPA business partner today? You can give them a piece of advice. What would it be?

Yeah, maybe the most actionable single thing that you can do today and then every day from now until the last day of your career is reach out to one business partner today with some piece of information for them. So if you reach out to one business partner or one key stakeholder every single day, you will force yourself to have something to bring to one key stakeholder or one business partner every single day, which means you will always be looking for value to bring to people, which means you will always be finding value, which means you will be a value generating human being. So like, I think if you put that in the, in the bucket first and you just say reach out to one person every single day, you'll find the thing to reach out to them about. You might scramble a couple days, you might miss a couple days, but your relationship with them will be like night and day different from where it is today.

I like it. One thing a day. Last question. If someone wants to get ahold of you or learn more about you, what's the best way for them to do that?

Yeah, LinkedIn is easy. That's a big one. Brett Hampson Also, if you want to join my newsletter, it's free. I write sort of like whatever's top of mind for myself. And to me it's a lot of the stuff that we've been talking about today about grassroots finance, transformation, FP and a operating system, all that kind of stuff. Just go to forecastingperformance.com and there's links everywhere for for you to sign up for the newsletter.

Love it. Well, thank you for joining us today. I really enjoyed getting to chat with you and you sharing about the grassroots, you know, transformations. We talked about it, the flywheel, the operating system, a lot of very practical things there you gave people. So I appreciate that and I hope the audience enjoys the conversation as much as I did. So thanks for joining me. Brett.

Yeah, thanks, Paul. We'll have to get that LinkedIn live forecast accuracy thing going, so I have.

That on my list for next year. Maybe Q1. We got to get through budget season first because nobody wants to join a LinkedIn live during budget season.

That's right, yeah. No, thanks for having me, Paul.

All right, thanks. That's it for Today's episode of FP&A Unlocked.

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