How Finance Professionals Can Build Success in Corporate Spin-Off Transformation with Jens Gutberlet

Massive monstrum of what is ahead of us. How do we work through that? A lot of uncertainty, a lot of unknowns. So what will happen? Because if you take it as one thing, it's unmanageable.

If you had to define FPA in one sentence, how would you define it?

Being a business partner to various levels of the organization and helping the organization to do better, sound financial decisions, things.

You had to go through to help stand up a new company.

There are so many things that need to be taken taken care of in all areas. So why are we doing this? So what do we have at the end that's very important? How do you shape the organization that at the end you don't have to go into through big transformation? Try to build that end directly from the beginning to make sure that once the process is done, the organization is really state of the art.

If you could offer one final piece of advice to be better at FP&A, you know, better business partner, what would that be?

We live in a fast paced world. You can take so much benefit of it if you add the mindset of.

FP and A Guy here. Have you ever wanted to level up your FP&A skills? Then check out the FP&A Guy's Ultimate Course Bundle at the fpnaguy.com that's the fpanda guy.com and use code podcast to save 25% get started learning today hello everyone.

Welcome to FPA Tomorrow where we delve into the world of financial planning and analysis, examining its current state and future prospects. I am your host Paul Barnhurst, AKA the FPA Guy, and I'll be guiding you through the ever evolving landscape of fba. Each week we're joined by thought leaders, industry experts and practitioners who share their insights and experiences, helping us navigate today's complexities and tomorrow's uncertainties. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting your journey in fpa, this show has something for everyone this week. I'm thrilled to welcome to the show Jens Go Bright. I probably got that a little bit wrong, but welcome to the show.

Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

Excited to have you. I know we got to chat before and thought it'd be great to bring you on the show as we discussed. So a little bit about Jan's background. He's based in Toronto, Canada. He recently moved over from Germany with his family. He studied business with a focus on finance and accounting. He started his career in consulting for a couple years and that will explain why he might give it Depends for some answers. And then he worked for the last 15 years in several multinational consumer goods companies. Hinkle, Edgewell, Johnson and Johnson. And now he's with Kenview. He's got profound and broad experience in finance in various FP and A and finance leadership positions and helped with two separation processes and standups of new companies. First at Edgewell where they separated from Energizer, and most recently at Kenview, separating from Johnson and Johnson Bray to do two big separations. All right, well, let's jump into products.

Right. So there are really some iconic brands behind that that can use producers and sells like Tylenol, for example, Nitrogen, Listerina, Johnson's Baby, of course Bandaid, so many more. So really very strong iconic brands. And that's what can you or the products of. Can you. So can you Was founded as a. From its separation from Johnson Johnson Consumer Health right before division of Johnson Johnson and it was then decided and announced in November 2021. Actually Johnson Johnson wants to separate of their consumer health business into individual company. This company is now founded as can view and actually now very large global player selling the products in 165 markets plus minus so really around the world and the biggest pure play consumer health company. Right. So really a strong company and very interesting process that we went through as a company and I had the chance to support.

I bet it was an interesting process. So how long did it take from kind of when the decision was made internally till the, you know, the spinoff actually happened?

Yeah. So obviously that's a decision that was taken way above my pay grade.

Right.

So of course I don't, I don't know how long really on board level they were working this through. But actually the announcement to the public and internally in the company was done broadly in November 2021.

Yeah.

So that's when the whole process started. And then really you can say very important milestone when it was officially the creation of the company was when can you was listed as a publicly traded company. And that was in May 2023. So roughly one and a half years. So seems like a quite a short time frame. And it was with all the work that needed to be done. Just imagine how many things, processes, teams, everything needed to be separated. So that's a bit the process how long it took. It's still going on a bit. So there's still interactions and relationships which are resolving and getting resolved and winded down. There are some TSA management still ongoing, if you know around that transitional service agreement. So agreements that were put in place to organize this transition. So it's coming down. I think by beginning mid of next year most of this will be resolved. So it's really quite a long time frame that it took to really go through this entire process.

Sure. I mean 18 months till kind of the Nasdaq. Who knows how long before that. Was it six months? Was it a year? They've been discussing it for years. I'm sure it first came up probably in a couple of years ago is an idea and took a long time before you know, highest level they made that decision. Yeah. And then you have another sounds like year and a half, two years with some TSAs transfer service agreements and trying to really split off where you're truly fully on your own.

Yeah, right, right, that's true.

Yeah. I mean it sounds like a massive process. What was the reasoning they gave for the split? Like what was the kind of the thinking? Was it a Matt, you know, just kind of an investment type decision or what was the.

Certainly one reason. But I think digging by was really to that they came to the conclusion that it's both companies can be better off with a focus on their core.

Right.

If you think about it, continue consumer goods, consumer health products and pharmaceutical medical device product. They are totally different business in most areas.

Right.

And I mean they had a good time together and they helped each other for a long time. Very strong and successful company. But I think at the end it was clear that with a focus, with a strategic focus, both companies would be better off. And that's I think the main rationale that was given to why this is being pursued. And actually also that's, that's, that's very clearly understandable. Right. I mean you can see that in, in many areas and just think about how many regulatory requirements and legal requirements you have when you launch a farm pharmaceutical product.

Right.

I mean that's mess.

Yeah. I don't even want to imagine.

Yeah. With lead times of years.

Right.

Or 10 years. I think it's not.

Yeah.

Nothing.

Right.

And then a consumer goods company was like such a fast paced cycle, changing consumer demands, reacting to consumer demands, short lead times and so on that didn't fit together. And I think it was a very good decision then to decide that you can create more value financially also obviously and be a better company standalone.

No.

Yeah. No, I. So I worked at American Express when they sold off and I, I left before the official day when they split it. But they had announced it publicly when they spun off their business travel from the card and bait business. Right. And so similar Type things. They're just travel is very different from the card. Even though for a long time they're very helpful together because hey, travel with us and use your American Express card, I help build the brand. But they just couldn't invest justify the same investment as trapped in travel that it needed as cards. It's like, like at a 20% return here and a 6% return there, whatever the numbers are just like, why would I invest in this outside of just enough to keep it going? And that's not a healthy position for a business. And I imagine there was some of that as well, for sure.

And obviously that needs to be fit for the right purpose to make decision. Also, for example, when you do investment into IT systems, for example, right. If you want to scale them up, you want to make them as broad as possible. But if you want to cover everything in one erp, for example farm business, medical business and consumer, that doesn't work. Right. So you end up then with different system, difficult decisions, investment decision and so on. So that's really where it becomes difficult and where it makes sense to focus clearly.

Sure, yeah. I can imagine in the IT and the tech stack and the different dimensions and things you need to track are just really hard to put all in one system. So it's like now we have two systems and it's almost like you're operating in many ways. You are two businesses in one, which just leads to distraction sometimes. How do you do a really good job when you have very different businesses and we see it and some people are successful at it, but it's hard.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So what was the transformation process like for you on the FPA side? Maybe talk a little bit about kind of that journey and what the process is like, the things you had to go through to help stand up a new company.

To stand up a new company, obviously you need to disentangle the entire organization.

Right.

It sounds actually very easy that you carve out one piece and you have a split off. In this case, that's a technical phrase, I guess how you bring it to the market. But just underlying, there are so many things that need to be taken care of in all areas.

Right.

I mean, there are contracts that need to be taken apart, there are legal entities that need to be taken apart. There are systems that need to be taken apart. There are all kinds of financial accounts and that needs to be taken apart and build on you. And I think that's another thing that once you take it apart, you also need then to create the new company and set up the new identity, the new values, the new structures and so on. I think that's on a high level what was done. And around the world there was a lot of entanglement over the years because there was always the drive for efficiency.

Right.

And you'd be more efficient if you scale up and that needed to be put into different pieces again. And then in a way that it makes sense for both companies.

Right.

That's a bit just in a couple of minutes how this massive process actually, which was I think one of the biggest of its kind, was done.

Right.

So that sounds still easy. So. But you can, can I think understand how the devil lies in the details and the complexity where it's coming from.

I am sure. And so kind of talking devil lies in the details. What, what for you is maybe the most challenging part like that you had to spend the most time on or that really, you know, either stimulated in you intellectually or was just a real challenge to figure out. What do you think was kind of the hardest or part for you in that. In that journey? FPA Guy here today I want to.

Talk about the FPA Guys Ultimate FP and a course bundle. This bundle includes over 10 hours of content recorded by Ron Montero and myself, many templates and great lessons to make you a better FPA professional. The content includes FP and a business partnering. How to manage tough conversations, build world class relationships and hold the business accountable. Includes Modern Excel, which is a real game changer for the way you'll work in Excel. Excel Tables, the gateway to modern Excel Power Query, a game changer for transforming your manual processes and loading data and then dynamic arrays. Next we cover modeling design principles. In this course we talk about the importance of designing models in a certain way and how important it is that you think about design. And last but not least, driving value through smart analysis. How you can conduct data analysis to be a better FP and a professional. Go ahead and sign up for this bundle@the fpnaguy.com that's the fpnd a n d a guy.com use the code podcast to save 25% hit started learning today.

Yeah, that's a very good question. I think the massive scale of the project maybe I think about it what my role was a bit in this process. So I had the chance directly after the announcement actually jump on a roll. As a project lead in a region, Europe, Middle East, Africa. I was asked to coordinate to lead the project management office for the finance activities and helping the organization to work through this complex process. Bring the right people in place, bring the topics to the right people and tracking, coordinating, escalating, resolving challenges. And I think what I think was very tough for me and the organization was that this massive monstrum of what is ahead of us, how do we work through that? Because if you take it as one thing, it's unmanageable.

Right.

And then in short time frame of only one and a half years. Right, Only one and a half years. But for this there was. So that. That was massive, massive. And I think there was for the entire organization a lot of uncertainty, a lot of unknown. So what will happen? Nobody can get. Could give the answers for that. And they most of the answers needed to be created.

Right.

So I think that was a big challenge for the organization. And then structuring that, bringing that down to showable bites.

Right.

So that you can really work through that. I think that's then certainly how we work through it. And with a lot of external help, a lot of consultants, a lot of legal advisors.

Right.

Which are necessary for this process for Schuben were very helpful. You work through this process step by step and structure it. That's also then amazing. Learning how you can a project of this scale, how you can manage it through and take the people along.

Yeah, I. I imagine like you said, there was a. A lot of. You said consulting, legal, one time separation expenses on both sides on the P.

L. Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Your project, that size.

Yeah.

And I imagine a huge part of this. You know, as you mentioned, you had to break it down. You kind of have the phrase I liked as a kid that I always heard was now how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. A big project like that, you just have to slowly work through it. Because if you try to do it all at once, it's just overwhelming and you'll never get there. Right.

If you do it, try to do it all at once, you get lost.

Right.

And then you get discouraged.

Right.

Cut it down slice by slice. How do you eat an elephant? That's the right thing. But always have also the vision or the target in mind.

Right.

So that you really know what we're going towards. Have a very clear goal. I think that what they did very well actually also to from day one really clearly outline what are we working towards.

Right.

So what is the plane that we are trying to build? That's a nice expression from our senior leadership that we are building a plane while you're flying it, actually.

Right, yep, I've heard that one. Yeah.

And that's actually a little bit hard. A good analogy how it kind of lost at the time.

Yeah, I think it is a good analogy because it makes you realize how hard and dangerous and kind of, you know, challenging it is. I would imagine. And I'd love to get your thoughts. Transformation to the size huge cultural piece to this of how do you, you know, keep people involved? Because I'm sure a lot of people are concerned anytime there's a spin off what will this all mean, how does this change things? And just that kind of uncertainty, even though there may be excitement that comes with it. So how. How do you manage the cultural side and the people through a project like this?

I think a lot through the why to explain what is the purpose and the reason why this is being done and what is way the goal we want to go to. So why are we doing this? So what do we have at the end? I think that's very important and that helps our colleagues to understand. And I think for me, I was more or less closely involved into all this work, so I had a lot of insights into how it's structured, what is coming next. But for many colleagues in the operational units, it was a lot more on now because many things could not be communicated to them, as I said before.

Right.

Because some of them were not even known yet. But I think the good job that was done by the organization is communicate a lot, give the purpose, give the reasons, explain, take them along the journey and help them to understand what is happening. I think this is very, very critical to keep everyone engaged and take everyone along.

Yeah. So it sounds like that really good leadership that really focused on look, why are we doing this? Why is important and this is the journey we'll take together versus And I think we've probably all seen as soon as you get a project work, hey, this is what we're doing. No why. No real explanation, no encouragement. And everybody's like, I'm not sure I buy into this. I even like this idea. And if you don't spend that time to get people comfortable, you're going to be less successful.

Yeah.

And you have to listen also to their concerns.

Right.

That you need to understand what is bothering them, what is, what are the fears.

Right.

You need to give people plans to work with it and, and be there for them.

Right.

I think that's, that's true for any, any project and change. Change process.

Yeah, I, I agree. I mean I think the most difficult part of change management is the people and cultural stuff. Technology is technology at the end of the Day. As long as you select something that can meet your needs and there's many different tools and you implement it well, you can be successful if you make sure you take care of the people and do the training and other things. But if you don't do that, you can have the best tool in the world and you may not get any adoption.

Yeah. And no one wants to use it afterwards.

Yeah, that. That never happened. So speaking of tools, I imagine you had a lot of work. We had to figure out, okay, how do we spend up the technology for finance and fpa because you're splitting off and you know, I'm sure there were different tools that made sense to use now that you're your own company versus what Johnson Johnson used to talk a little bit about that. How did you kind of work through that process of just the technical transformation?

Yeah, I think this changes like these give obviously to an organization the opportunity to also rethink the tools that they need and that they want to use. And I think it was very clearly part of the process to understand how can we set up our systems or ERP system up to success, that we afterwards are stronger and fit for purpose, have a fit for purpose tool and a stronger company. So that was very clearly part of the roadmap. Also what kind of reporting tools you need versus what you used to before. It is for sure very difficult to do everything at once. I mean there's a long ERP project for company. Not in this situation is a very difficult one. But do that together that makes the challenges tremendously bigger. So I think that's very important from my perspective for companies that are going through this process to think that side of the equation very strongly from the beginning and plan that in throughout the process. Throughout from the beginning. Because in the end life goes on and in the end you need to get. And competition doesn't sleep.

Right.

So you need to be coming out of this process able to run fast.

Right.

And cannot wait one and a half years and then pick up where you were before. So really important to have that part in. And obviously that gives them another change to the organization. But managing that right. I think that's. If you have like change you can combine it, right. Then you have. You can also use the benefits of having changes in multiple areas and combine that. So that might even ease then the pain. Pain a bit and make it more successful.

That makes a lot sense. I'm sure there's opportunities to make processes better now that you're getting to select your own software and do things In a way that maybe you thought should have always been done but didn't make sense in the prior company because you need a new technology to do it or just because of the parent company's priorities, whatever it may be.

So you can also sort of do that. You can also have then a chance to cut through like legacy systems or we do that why we always did it, we didn't touch it.

Right.

I think these kind of things exist in any company.

Right.

But this really gives you the opportunity to tackle those of them, really think through. We do it like this. Is that really the right way or is now the time to change it? And that's for sure a strong opportunity.

That company should let.

Yeah, I would imagine for FP and a. Or kind of in general, I know you're on the transformation, but for an FPA team it would be an incredibly challenging, exciting and price stressful time. A lot of hours of work as you're, you know, you're now trying to redo all your reporting to meet the new company's needs. You're changing some of your budgeting and planning process. You got whole new organizations, sometimes new people you're supporting. But there's the excitement of, hey, we now get, you know, different investment. We can focus on just this business. We may not have to hear all the time. No, that doesn't make sense. You know, we're focusing on other priorities. So, you know, what are the opportunities for FPA time like this? Because I imagine there's a lot of opportunity to kind of stand out and shine in this if you're committed and passionate. So what do you see as those opportunities for FPNA people when this happens?

I very clearly think that FPA can play a very strong role in that. Right. I mean, with all that you mentioned and also that the business continues.

Right.

And by running those chains.

Right.

And that's where FPA can be very strong with the right support mindset help. And I think we're very strongly FBA can help is on the one side to explain to the organization wall all these kind of things with the financial acumen and the background explain why is it helping. So what are the good things about the painful work that we're going through?

Right.

What is the outcome that that will bring or the financial benefit and what will leave us better off afterwards? So that's certainly, certainly one. And I also think that it's a very strong opportunity for FPA to rethink their structure and overall finance in an organization to think through how do we want to be set up afterwards.

Right.

How do we combine different finance functions in a better way? How do we cut through silos, for example, that might have in there before?

Right.

And combine it. How do we also maybe integrate SBA thinking and financial thinking mindset even more into the business so that they have a stronger financial standing. So I think all of this can be very powerful and I'm really convinced that finance FDA has a very, very strong role in this. Not only to manage it through, but really to shape the organization for better future afterwards.

Yeah. And I mean, so what would you tell somebody after having gone through this twice? I know you worked with this, not just Johnson Johnson. If I have someone listening in FPA and they're getting ready to work on a divestiture spin off, is there one or two pieces of advice you would give them that you've learned through this journey?

Yeah. From an FPA perspective or from a finance perspective, really have the new company in mind right from the beginning. So make sure that this is being worked through and considered in the planning and preparation from, from the beginning. Because I mean as we talked about this as a lot of distraction, many things that need to be worked on and it's, it's rather, it can happen that it's actually rather easy that you then rather focus as an organization on those things that you definitely must do. Like you're getting your accounting right, getting your compliance right. And that I would say it's very important for FPA to make sure that what FPA stands for, consider that directly throughout the process as well.

Right.

And fight for that. To make sure that the setup is considered throughout the way that you come up strong afterwards. To that maybe also I think what is my learning generally, I mean consumer goods is a very rather small margin business in comparison to fund, obviously.

Right.

So there's a lot of more sevenness and financial focus needed to structure your P and L and your cash flow.

Right.

I think that's also very important to have that throughout the process in mind. There are many runtime costs, there are also many standalone costs that come with these kind of processes where you have for example, a new function that you didn't have before or an efficiency that you had before that's no longer there.

Right.

I think that's also one advice that I would give to anyone working in finance had that in mind throughout the process. How do you shape the organization that at the end you don't have to go into true big transformation, but try to build that indirectly from the beginning to make sure that also once the process is done, the organization is really state of the art, is very efficient and really fit for purpose and able to run on its own legs.

Basically.

Looking to level up your career and build skills that make you stand out to FP and a hiring managers? How about earning a certificate from a world renowned business school? Wharton Online and Wall Street Prep have partnered to create an eight week online financial planning and analysis certificate program. You'll learn the art of forecasting, analysis, business partnering and financial storytelling from Wharton Online's world class faculty. Coupled with firsthand exposure to technical and interpersonal skills. Skills with real world applications as practiced in top corporations. Space is limited so level up your career today and use the discount code the FPAguy. 300 to receive $300 off tuition. That is the FPA guy. 300 to receive $300 off Tuition. Learn more by going to Wall street.

Crep Wharton upen Edu yeah, sounds like everyone really think of not just the technology, not just process, but think of the company, think of the strategic, always kind of thinking what's best for them, you know, for the company as a whole. And look at this as an opportunity. Sounds like because it's easy to think, oh man, this is just something I have to deal with versus an opportunity to come out better on the other side. And hearing that makes it sound like, you know, a huge part of this comes down to mindset during this type of time which we talk about. So maybe talk just a little bit about kind of the mindset you need to have for a project like this.

The mindset in general, I mean the can do attitude that's, that's so important.

Right.

I mean you talked about the elephant.

Right.

I think it's can be overwhelming.

Right.

But turning that into positive, into visionary thinking, into understanding the opportunities that are behind that is I think the important point to be prepared for it and to get motivated and energized. I mean just the idea of having a new company, how often does that happen? Right. But the idea of being part of that and having a chance to even at the small scale, shape that and frame that and influence that, I think that's, that's certainly the mindset that helps you to, to be very motivated to, to engage in.

Sure. And I would imagine a company, I mean one of the biggest spin offs we've had can view. I mean what you guys spin off as is, I know, billions of dollars in revenue for sure.

Yeah.

Right. I mean that's a big. The brands you listed are not small brands.

15 billion company worldwide.

Right.

So it's a huge, huge company. Still a. Yeah. Fortune 500 company and a very strong player.

Right.

And that, I mean that once in a lifetime opportunity that many I and many of my colleagues. Colleagues certainly had.

Yeah, I can imagine. Well, thank you for talking a little bit about, you know, the journey. I really appreciate you sharing, you know, some of that. And now just going to ask kind of more traditional FP and a question for you. What spread over your career? What's your favorite part within FP&A? What do you enjoy most about being in FP&A?

I certainly enjoy that I have a chance in FP and A to influence the business, to work very closely with business teams on various levels. Actually I enjoyed that very much already in the beginning. So I was, I loved that when I started at Henkel already they had a similar business partnering mindset I think, which very common especially in consumer goods companies but abroad many industry by now is that you partner with your commercial side, you partner with the marketing team, you partner with the sales team, you partner with the managing director later on. Right at the end, you partner with the cfo, partners with the CEO.

Right.

To make it happen. And I think that's what really is the great thing and what motivates me so much about FPA and this kind of work that you, you have strong technical skills, you have a strong foundation and then you can really help the business to create benefit and you can also influence that.

Right.

So that's certainly a good part.

I agree with you. I love the part that you can influence and partner and make a difference with the business, the relationships and creating value. You know, funny enough, nobody yet has said their favorite part is budgeting or planning.

Some things just need, need to be, be done.

Right.

Yeah.

And even though it's in our title. Yeah, but I mean it totally, it, it totally makes sense, but it just, it's kind of funny. So we're going to move into a section, kind of a standard section where I ask a couple FPA questions of all our guests. So the first one, from your perspective, what's the number one technical skill FP and a professional should master?

Technical skill. For me, that's actually financial modeling and analysis. You need to understand the numbers, you need to make a sense of it and you need to be able to model them, to do sensitivity analysis, to understand, to do scenario planning, to understand the drivers, what has impact, what not. I think that's number one technical at skill to me.

Yeah, that, that is probably one of the Most common answers. There's two things that come up the most. Spreadsheets, financial modeling. And they go together quite a bit. Right. In some ways they're almost the opposite of a coin. There's differences between them, but they're, they're intertwined. What about soft skill or as I like to say, human skill?

Yeah, human skills. I think very important, very centerpiece is communication. You need to be a good communicator. And it involves various aspects.

Right.

It involves the relationship building, it involves reading the room. It involves being able to message the frame your message towards the audience, make it fit for purpose, also adapting your message if it doesn't fly.

Right.

And I think that's very important for FP&A professionals. Because what I've learned over the years, if you're not good at that, then all the good work that you do technically could be for nothing because you don't land it. You don't have the influence that you could have. And I think there it comes together what really good FP&A professionals on the soft skill side can excel.

Yeah, I, I'm with you. It's, it's around the communication and that, that's a lot of the things the business partnering, relationship, active listening, showing empathy, storytelling. I mean, when you put it under that broad communication umbrella, there's a lot of things that can fit there, but you have to have that. You have to be able to influence and h. Communicate with the business. Otherwise, like you said, you could do fabulous technical work, but if you can't explain goes to waste most of the time.

And you still need the foundation.

Right.

You need all that.

Right.

Plus that makes then the difference. And I think that's. That's very true.

Yeah, I agree with you.

Okay.

This last one is kind of a fun one. I love to see what people say if you could wave a magic wand. So you're the, you know, genie, whatever you want to call it for the day and change one thing about fpa, what would you change?

Interesting one. Yeah. I think the one thing is, and actually we are getting there already. Not fast enough, but for me, that's generative AI.

Right.

I mean, really, you said about budgeting, nobody said that ever.

Right.

These kind of things, preparing budgets, doing reconciliations, doing basic analysis and deviation analysis kind of things. If we could get that all automated, which is promised and they're in the beginnings, but not to the level that I think needed, that would be for me, the one that I would use my wish for, then to focus on all the other fun Stuff Right. Of making the right decision. Story, communication, changing the framing that. So that will be. And hopefully we're getting there. But someday maybe.

Yeah, no, I mean we're definitely making projects progress. Still got a long ways to go, but I get it. May wave the magic wand, get rid of all the drudgery and focus on the fun stuff. I like it. All right, so this is the get to know you section where we ask a few personal questions to get to know a little bit more about you. So a favorite hobby or passion? What do you like to do when you're not working?

I love to spend time with my, my kids and my family. I have three kids, a teenage daughter and two boys, 12 and 10. And spending time with them, especially now this age is great because we can do so much things together. With my boys, a lot of sports, they are very passionate. Soccer players, very active. That's a lot of fun. I even coached the team of my older son for the last five years. So that was a lot of fun. Now coaching the team, I tell you, quite a leadership experience, right. One thing that I haven't seen like that in my professional career, making sure that 28 boys follow you and develop. Right. So that was fun. So really it is spending time with them.

Right.

And I wish I could even do even more of that with them.

Sure. I love that spending time. And you mentioned the leadership skills. I was a Boy Scouts Cub Scouts leader for years. Been on many campouts with kids and you know, trying to teach them to tie knots or watching them work with the hatches or cutting wood. And yeah, you definitely get some leadership opportunity going on a 50 mile hike with, you know, 14, 15, 16 year old kids for a week in the wilderness.

But we need to add to the different skills.

Right.

And they help you also in your business life.

Right.

Because for example, that you convince them and show them that it is fun, do it with fun and then you get them and with like rules and we do it like this. Because we do it like this.

Yeah, no, there's definitely some things that come into work for sure. If you could, if you could recommend a book to our audience.

What book?

Actually I have two books which I look very often into and that helped me a lot all of my careers. The one is from James Clear, Atomic Habits, if you know it, about the power of small changes, but consistent changes and the compounding effect of this. And that's for me really one thing that I try to look at and it helped me a lot to develop in my career because I Think if you do it in small steps but consistently, you have so much more chance to get to a great result rather than trying to do the big things, which are mostly scary and hard work. But breaking that down, that's very, very helpful. And the other one is, I think it's a little bit older book, not that much from Daniel Goleman. It's called Focus.

Right.

As the title says, it's around focusing, really making sure to focus on what you do. And I feel that's getting more and more important in the environment when with all the distractions and opportunities, you need to focus on what you really do right now. And then, then you, you'd be good at it.

Yeah. We live in a world where it's so easy to get distracted. It's all short term, instantaneous social media and sound bites.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So easy to be distracted and so hard to remain focused.

Yeah, I, I've had it the last day or two number of times. All right, here's my. I'm distracted. So this is kind of a fun one. I like to ask, what did you want to be when you grew up? Up. What was your kind of career aspiration as a kid?

So first, actually when I was like 10, 12, I wanted to become a lawyer.

Right.

And it was until the point that I noticed that not every lawyer job is like Tom Cruise and A Few Good Men. You know, that movie, really, that was my view of a picture of a lawyer. And I thought, this is it. I want to be like this.

But.

And I know it's not like that now, but honestly then actually very early on I wanted to work with people, want to be some kind of a leader in groups, create structures and organizations. So very early on I had the understanding of working in business and organizations. So that's very early on I had the plan to go in that direction one way or the other.

Love it. And I laugh when you said lawyer because as a kid, my reasoning, I thought I wanted to be a lawyer because I liked arguing.

All right.

And trying to win an argument. And I bought, you know, that's what really what a lawyer did as I got older.

Maybe there are other aspects to it as well.

So if you could have dinner with one person in the world today, who would you take to dinner?

Wow.

Also probably many. One that I would like to assign. Simon Sinek would love to have an evening. I mean, it's so great to just hear him talking and the way he communicates and that's great. But also the ideas that he brings across we talked about why. I think that's one of his core theme, but also the idea that he brings across a lot is about companies and life being an infinite gain, so that it's always continuing and it's not like you get there and then you're done. These kind of ideas I would really love to talk to him about and probably that would end up in him talking all the time and the entire time and I'm just listening. I think that's how it could be. But I would love to have that dinner with him.

I guess sometimes those are the best ones when you get to just listen and learn and you don't have to say much. So I hear you on that. All right, well, I have one last question then we'll wrap up here. If you could offer one final piece of advice to our audience to be better at fpa, better business partners, what.

Would that be next to all the skills that we talked about? I think being flexible, being agile and adapt to all the changes that are coming. I mean we live in a fast paced world which I think is even going to accelerate. And I think you can take so much benefit of it and shape it in such a good way if you have the mindset of agile and embrace it and take it on. And that's what I would say also to FP&A professionals.

Right.

I like it. When you said be agile, be flexible, I thought of Excel. Right. It's the most flexible tool out there. But you can tell I work in finance when that's what comes to mind. But thank you for sharing that. Thank you for joining me. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been fabulous. If people want to learn more about you or maybe get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?

Probably LinkedIn. That's the easiest way. So they will find me there and.

Sure, that's kind of what I figured. That's usually the answer. We'll put your LinkedIn profile in the show notes and excited to share this with my audience. This has been fun chatting about your journey and divestitures. So thank you for carving out some time.

Very welcome and thank you very much for inviting me.

Of course. Thanks Jens.

Thanks for listening to FP&A tomorrow. If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a five star rating and a review on your podcast platform of choice. This allows us to continue to bring you great guests from around the globe. As a reminder, you can earn CPE credit by going to earmark cpe.com downloading the app, taking a short quiz and getting your CPE certificate to earn continuing education credits for the FPAC certification. Take the quiz on Earmark and contact me, the show host, for further details.