How FP&A Pros Can Fix Poor Executive Communication Using a 5-Step Framework with Anders Liu-Lindberg

Great.

FP&A is something that leads to impact, something that leads to increased value creation in the company. Problem for many FPA professionals is that Anders Lulenberg is co founder of the Business Partnering Institute and one of the most influential voices in finance. He's the author of Create Value as a Finance Business Partner and the upcoming Communicating Financials to executives with 400k plus LinkedIn followers and decade of Experience at Maersk hi, I have not met a business leader yet who was not interested to work with me when my starting point was only here to help you be successful. We either win or we lose together.

It needs to be about we, not hey, you're missing your numbers. I think anytime you do that, you remove yourself from the business. You could have any one superpower. What superpower would you have?

I probably wanted to be the world's best listener.

I like that. So we'll call you the super listener. What do you tell people when they're struggling with that particular area? What should they be doing?

What good FP&A professionals do is is.

That what do you see as the greatest challenge facing FP and A Moving forward?

So the biggest challenge is really to.

This week's episode is brought to you by Corporate Finance Institute, cfi, the global leader in online corporate finance training and certifications. With CFI's FMVA program, you'll learn how to build three statement models, perform DCF and comparable valuation forecasting, and presenting insights with clarity, the exact skills you need to move your career forward. And right now, you can get 30% off when you sign up. Visit corporate financeinstitute.com and thanks to CFI for sponsoring this episode. Hello everyone. Welcome to FPA Tomorrow, where we delve into the world of financial planning and analysis, examining its current state and future prospects. I'm your host, Paul Barnhurst, AKA the FPA Guy, and I'll be guiding you through the evolving landscape of fpa. Each week we're joined by thought leaders, industry experts and practitioners who share their insights and experiences, helping us navigate today's complexities and tomorrow's uncertainties. This week, I'm really excited to have on the show Anders, Lou Lindberg. Anders, welcome to the show.

Thanks a lot, Paul. Pleasure to be here. Pleasure to record another podcast with you. It's been a while, so it's good to be a part of it again. You do some great stuff. So happy to be a part of that.

Thanks. I appreciate it. What has it been? It's been about two years or maybe even longer. Two, three years. It's been a while. You're one of my first guests on FP&A today, so it's definitely been a while.

Yes, from today to tomorrow.

Exactly. Maybe I'll do yesterday next.

Who knows? Oh, that would be a bit trip down memory lane and you bring out, you know, your pen, paper and whatnot.

And yeah, yeah, I could bring out how FP and A used to work. You know, I'll call it instead of FPA yesterday. I can call it FP&R for financial planning and reporting Yesterday. Yeah, there we go. Although I don't know, it would do very well. Most people are like, why do I want to listen to that? Well, so just let me give a little bit of background about Anders here and then we'll jump into our questions. So Anders is the co founder and a partner at Business Partnering institute. He has 10 years of experience as a business partner at the global transport and logistics company Merrick's. He is the co author of the book Create Value as a Finance Business partner, a longtime finance blogger, a LinkedIn learning instructor, and a top voice on LinkedIn. With 400,000 plus followers this year or in 2025, we'll be publishing his latest book, Communicating Financials to Executives to help finance professionals communicate their insights more effectively. Well, sounds like you got a lot of great things going on. Love the, love the bio. Excited for the book. We'll jump into that here shortly. But I want to start with if you had defined great FPA and what it looks like, how would you do that?

So you know, great FPA is something that leads to impact, something that leads to increased value creation in the company, not just more reports and dashboards and spreadsheets and after forecast and so on. So it's very much outcome based. And for me, I want to elevate FPA into the strategic arena.

Right.

So instead of just facilitating budgeting and forecasting the organization, you actually work as the primary business partner to the CEO, the CFO and the board. So that's really what I want FP&A to do. But that's also seen from a, let's say a Scandinavian context where FPA is a bit more a corporate function, whereas Maybe in the U.S. for instance, it's a bit more all over the company, if you will. So of course there are some differences there, but has to be a strategic business partner.

Thank you, Appreciate that. Can you share an example from your career when you've seen great FP and A in action? Maybe an example or you've seen what you're talking About.

Yeah. So, I mean, there's a lot of FP and A teams that are maybe struggling to do this. But you know, I can speak about my own sort of career and some of the examples that, that I've had. And you know, I used to work at Maersk, as you also mentioned, and back in, in 2019, I was a business partner to one of the, the products, actually the biggest product at Maersk at the time with, you know, a multi billion dollar business and it's simple business, sailing containers from Asia to Europe and back again with of course, all the A2B combinations that you can find in there. And for me, it was not just about reporting. Here's the P and L having a meeting once a month and then see you next time. It was much more about tuning into the strategic priorities of the different products that I was supporting, helping them translate that into an annual plan that we could execute and, and get that out into the different markets and then of course on a monthly basis follow up with them and say, hey, did we actually meet or beat the objectives that we set out? If we beat them, what can we do? Even better if we didn't, what do we need to do to get back on track? And at the end of that year, before I went on my own entrepreneur journey, if you will, one of the products won turnaround products of the year, another one defended against a major competitive play where in the past we would have lost maybe up to half a billion dollars. Now we only lost $75 million. And all of them said, you know what, Anders, we couldn't have done this without you. So that's kind of great. FPA in action that we actually have that impact.

Thanks. I love that. I love how you shared the impact with that because like you said, if you're not making an impact, it's, you know, it's hard to say that's great. FP and A. Even if you're doing really good work, you need to find a way to help make a difference and improve the organizations you work with. Absolute Business Partnering. You work for the Business Partnering Institute, maybe tell the story of how you became a partner and you know what BPI does.

Yeah. So as you know, with, with startups or small companies, you know, it's easy to become a partner or a CEO or whatever CXO title you want. All you have to do is found a company. So I was part of founding the Business Partnering institute back in 2018. Kind of started as an idea already in 16. Took a few years to mold it. And then we launched in April 2018. So how did that all come about? Well, basically from being active on LinkedIn and writing and publishing different kinds of magazines where people could say, here's a guy who is speaking about value creating, finance, concept of business partnering. Maybe I should have a talk with him. Or maybe he wants to co author the book with me, which we then also published in 2017. You know, so all these conversations kind of formed into the company called Business Partnering Institute. So it really happened. By sharing my thoughts and practical experiences, somehow I see finance and FPA making a difference.

Makes sense. And I know it's exciting for the company. And like you said, you can give yourself whatever title you want. I've seen all kinds of fun titles entrepreneurs will give themselves. So, quick question. I'm curious, if you look back at your kind of LinkedIn, your blogging journey, how many hours do you think you spent on LinkedIn over the years?

Well, that's probably a number. I wouldn't want to count. Paul. And of course, I started in 2012 before anyone ever thought that LinkedIn was a platform for content.

Right.

Today we all kind of take for granted that I can just become a creator on LinkedIn or other social media platforms. Back then it was a little bit different, but I started my blog there in 2014 and, you know, besides for a few holidays here and there, I've been publishing one plus blog post every single week. So it's approaching probably 900 blog posts by now.

Right.

And you, you also write and, and do a lot of podcasts and whatnot. So you can imagine that in itself is a lot of hours, but also really value the community aspect of LinkedIn. So I really make sure to be there in the comments and, you know, respond to people and also follow up with people if they have questions and whatnot. I can't say I have an inbox zero on LinkedIn, but I try to keep it close at least. So it is a lot of hours, if I should be honest.

Yeah, I can imagine it's a lot harder to keep to zero as you continue to grow because you get more and more questions from people. I mean, I know I get a lot. And there'll be times when someone will ping me and is like, did you see my message? Yeah, but I forgot I get so many in here or I glanced over. You never have that happen.

Right again. And yeah, we do our best.

Right?

But we are also just humans. And I have to say that, you know, there's many things I can kind of delegate and Let people take control over. But. But not my LinkedIn account. That's hot. But if you will. So I'm not that I have to do that myself. Which of course also makes a lot of vows.

Sure. Yeah. No, it would be. I know I spent a lot of hours. It would be kind of scary sometimes to see the. If someone put the number of hours in front of me, I'd be like, wait, how much time? So you're getting ready to launch your new book here, Communicating Financials to Executives. Tell us how that came about when it launches. Let us know a little bit about that.

Absolutely, Paul. So, you know, we work with a lot of Finance and FP&A teams out there. We do learning journeys, we do consulting projects. We also work on as interim or short term contract resources.

Right.

But almost wherever we go, we see suboptimal management reporting, suboptimal communication of financials to business leaders. It doesn't have to be the top executives all the time, but essentially we struggle to communicate in a language that business leaders understand. Maybe we have too many details or no good structure, or there's no recommendation, or maybe we don't even have any insights in there. But we spent so many hours doing the analysis and preparing some sort of presentation, but it just doesn't lead to any impact. And you know, I've always thought that's, that's a real shame because it basically means we're just wasting our careers away and it doesn't take that much change to actually, you know, transform how you do your management reporting, how you communicate it, to have that impact. So we thought we're going to write a book about that because 95% of all Finance and FPA teams, they could probably use, if not all of it, then definitely some of it. So that's kind of why we write it.

Yeah, no, I agree. Communication is definitely a challenge, especially presenting, really presenting where you're making an impact and influence. I really like. You know, Brent Dykes talks about the last mile of analytics in his book and I really like that idea. He goes so often we do great work on the analysis. He talked specifically finance and analytics. When I had him on the show, he's like, then we don't put a call to action in there or we don't ask for something to be done. We kind of fell on the analytics. And I've done that. I mean, not the analytics, the presentation. I've done that before. I still remember the time when my boss said to me, your analysis was brilliant. Your presentation lacked. When I Asked them what went wrong with the cfo. It's like, so you did a great job all the way up till the end. And I just kind of, you know, took it for granted that he would approve it. Fortunately, it worked out, but it was a good reminder of that value. So I know you have a framework you use in the book. Can you talk about a little bit about your framework for communicating financial insights that you use?

Yeah. So, you know, we've talked a lot about, you know, generating insights in FP and A for the past almost a decade.

Right.

But when you then ask people, so, you know, what is insights and how do I develop it? They kind of struggle to do that. And, you know, just mentioned Brett Dykes, right. And he talks a lot about how to, how to generate these insights. But for us, it's also, you know, what is the structure for actually communicating this to your stakeholders?

Right.

So of course, we're from Finance, FP&A. So our starting point is kind of in the financials. So we kind of need to say, okay, you know, what is the financial highlight of, of the period that we've kind of presenting on? So that's kind of step number one. Then we also need to have some sort of insights. You know, what are the key attention points that we want to spend the half an hour, hour we have for this management meeting to dive into? That's kind of step number two. Step number three is then, okay, now we've discussed the insights, what should we do about it? What's the recommendation that we want to put forward? Sometimes it's hard to really put a recommendation out there, but then at least you use the meeting to facilitate, brainstorm, discuss what should we do so that you can at least conclude at the meeting we need to do something. Step number four is that if you put forward a recommendation, what are the underlying argumentation and facts that back up your recommendation? You usually don't need to present this, you know, leave that for the appendix. But in case, you know, there are a lot of profiles that would say, I'm not quite sure about this, or can you show me a detail about that? And you need to be able to answer that, Right. If by the first question asked in your presentation, right, let me go back and figure that out, then you are dead.

Right.

So you still need to do all that analysis and all that work to be able to present like that. And then step number five is then the call to action.

Right?

What do we do next going out of this meeting here? So those are kind of the Five steps that are part of the framework so that we want finance professionals, professionals to use as the basic structure for almost any communication they do from the time they have read the book.

Got it. Okay. So thank you for sharing those, you know, five parts to the structure. I appreciate that. You know, I know in the framework you talk about, hey, we should always start with the numbers. Is that, you know, because we're in finance and the job is kind of number based or what's the thinking behind that? Always being the entry point.

So the basic idea is that we need to align on the situation, right? The situation, the undisputable facts about where we are as a company. And maybe it's easy, maybe they already have access to the dashboard and we just need to say, so here's the numbers. You know where we stand. Let's talk about what to do with it. You know, it should take no longer than five minutes, that first section.

Right.

But if we are not aligned about the situation, you know, imagine a, a management team of different functions coming in, you know, and then marketing thinks it's great because there's a ton of leads in the pipeline. Sales are struggling a bit to realize the revenue operations don't know how to deliver it all. But, you know, they don't all have the full picture of what that actually means. So we need to start by kind of aligning on this is where we are at. And of course, one set of numbers and all these, these principles. If we don't do it, we're not ready to take that next step in the discussion. The problem for many FPA professionals is that they think that's the whole discussion. Right? So they spent half an hour on that and then, you know, they have lost their audience along the way, even if they have full hour. So they never get to any action points. So max five minutes on this, but without it, we might getting ahead of ourselves.

Got it. And so the goal there in that part is really just framing what you need to talk about, make sure everybody's on the same page. Because like you said, sales may be thinking, hey, I don't, I don't have good leads where marketing's like, well, we're giving you a ton of leads, we're doing great, and operations over here. So you want to define what, what you're looking to accomplish, the situation, what the challenge is, and make sure everybody understands where you're going. Is that kind of really that, that point there?

Yeah, I mean, it's the what. Right, so, so what's happening out there where Then the next step is, is the why.

Right.

So the what and the why is not where you need to spend the most time, but you still need to cover them in order to get to the Sol Watt.

Right.

So cannot do it. We just need to be much more crisp on it and clear and concise and spend that max five minutes.

So you said the general problem you see is we spend way too much.

Time on that 100% and you know, it's often our own doing.

Right.

And you've probably seen these kind of presentations as well, Paul.

Right.

Where. So let's say, you know, slide number one is a table of content. Slide number two is some very basic executive summary commenting on, you know, this little bit up, this little bit down, and then slide, slide three is a massive table with numbers and scenarios and variances.

Right.

And putting yourself in the shoes of a sales leader, marketing leader, just take some of those.

Right.

They die a little bit inside every month they see this presentation. So we're not putting ourselves in the shoes of the other people. We're just presenting the way we think. Well, this is so easy to understand. Don't you see over here and there and all the numbers. And of course it's that little number we should focus on. I'm like, no, I don't. Help me figure this out by simplifying it to what are the key highlights and what are the attention points we need to discuss.

Yeah, got it. We've all seen it. I know what you're talking about. And you know, another thing you mentioned in your framework that I thought was really interesting and just want to understand how you define the difference. You mentioned people should synthesize versus summarize, maybe define what those are and kind of the difference between doing the two. If you're ready to take your finance career to the next level, this is your moment. Corporate Finance Institute, or cfi, is the global leader leader in online corporate finance certifications. Their FMVA program is built for professionals who want to move beyond theory and master the skills top finance teams actually use. With fmva, you'll learn how to build robust three statement models, perform DCF and comparable valuation analysis, create accurate forecasts, and communicate your insights clearly using the same practical skills that top finance teams rely on to guide strategy and make better business decisions. Whether you're targeting a promotion, transitioning into FP and A, or aiming to stand out in a competitive job market, these are the qualifications that hiring managers are actively looking for. Over 2 million professionals worldwide trust CFI to gain skills, earn promotions and advance their careers. And right now, you can do the same with 30% off any CFI plan. Visit corporate financeinstitute.com to start building the skills that get you noticed and get you hired.

Yeah, so summarizing is basically taking facts. Can be from an analysis or from external research or whatever. It is hard to contest that.

Right.

Whereas synthesizing is, you know, leaning out on top of those facts.

Right.

So you might say that. Let's say we have a product where you have done some market research where consumers, they actually prefer this product. The market research says so. You may also have taken your product and compared it to your main two competitors. And you notice here you have more features than your competitor. So you could take those two facts and synthesize to say, we have a higher quality product than competition.

Right.

So you're leading out and saying we have higher quality product, which can be difficult to state as a fact, but you have the facts to back it up. So that's kind of the simple difference between summarizing and synthesizing.

Got it. So in synthesizing, you're. You're taking those facts and adding something on top of it to kind of aid the story.

Exactly. It can be your own experiences as well that you put into it, which of course are not necessarily always facts, or maybe it's just your story. But if it's kind of based on those facts, it's much easier to defend as an argument for putting forward a recommendation. And one of the challenges for BNA professionals is often that we don't dare to do that. We just want to stick with the objective facts so we don't lean out and say, well, we should actually charge premium prices for our product because it's a higher quality product. No, we would just say, well, the research says this and the, you know, the competitor highlight says that you figure out what to do with it. Now we just need to lean out a little bit.

Yeah. And how do we do that if we're struggling to do that? What advice do you offer to help us get past that tendency to just lay out the facts, be very factual and summarize versus, you know, synthesize and adding that opinion and thought to it. So what, what do you tell people when they're struggling with that particular area? What should they be doing?

So I think one of the fears of FPA professionals is that you are doing this in the, the management meeting of the month.

Right.

Where you have all the high pressure stakeholders sitting there. You're like, I'm a bit concerned to Lean out. But what good FBA professionals do is that everything is sort of cleared in advance.

Right.

You have those important one on one conversations and say here's what we've learned through the analysis of the month. Would you agree that it suggests that, this, that and the other. And let's say they disagree. They would tell you one to one and you can align on okay, so what does it mean instead of. And you can kind of adjust and save it if you will. But let's say you haven't done that, but you just haven't done the analysis completely on your own and maybe talk to a few people in some teams and then you go into management and presenter like no, we don't agree to that, then it's too late to save it.

Right.

So kind of work behind the scenes to confirm or reject your ideas and recommendations before you put them forward.

Right.

That's, that's good business partnering that you do this. Besides, let's say if it's a challenging situation your company is in, you don't want to kind of put some people on the spot in a meeting in a negative sense without them being prepared for it.

Right.

That's the easiest way to ruin any relationship.

A hundred percent agree. Right. I've heard many people come on the show and they talk about how they did all this work. They presented something in the meeting and kind of in a light that made the person look bad and getting pulled aside after going, you realize you're not making any friends doing it this way. Right? Fpa, as I've heard it said, we, we always have those things that people aren't going to like about our job. Like very few people love going through budget season or you know, month end, especially in a tough month. So you're only compounding if you start to be negative in other areas. And as I, as Christian with TIG always uses and I like the example is the emotional bank account. Right. We have some withdrawals that just FP and a business partnering by nature brings being finance, you don't want to add to that. Otherwise you're going to be in a negative position. And as you know, you know if you're in a, in that kind of position, you can't really business partner. You can't have a great relationship. So you really need to make sure you do everything you can to be a partner with them. Even though you're going to have to share bad news and you're going to have things they don't like about your job, there's a reason they're not in finance.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And you know, I recall many of those stories from my own career as well. You know, one particular to, to highlight here. You know, I was working as a, as a business partner for Region one. So it wasn't a classic FPA position, but it was kind of more a finance business partner position, if you will. And so we had eight clusters of countries in that region. And then of course I was in the region with the CEO, the CFO and a few other corporate functions.

Right.

So every month we will have a meeting with those clusters to go through performance. And you know, a section of that was kind of mine to maybe ask questions or pressure test a little bit. And I remember, you know, one of the, one of the sessions we had, you know, I kind of looked at the numbers and I kind of figured out something is wrong here. And I was like, you know, pushing back on the team. You know, can you see something is wrong? And they weren't really following me. Right. So that was kind of bad in itself. But then as the meeting was finished, this was before there was kind of videos and everything else. I was kind of on a, one of those spider phones in the middle of the table. Right. So we couldn't really see each other either. So that was, that was also a challenge. But then we were kind of exiting the room that we were in and then the CEO was the second last one to exit and I was the last one. And he kind of closed the door on me and he said, you know, Anders, you are a brilliant, smart guy, but they're not getting it on the other side. They're not, you're not bringing them along. You can't just do it the way you try to do it. You need to figure out a different approach. Of course he was not shouting at me. He was genuinely wanting me to succeed, but taking a different approach. So we can't just push and force down our thoughts into our business stakeholders minds and then they're going to do the right thing. We have to bring them along. And clearly I changed my approach after that event.

So how did you change your approach? What did you do after that that helped bring them along?

There's a lot more about, let's say, go out, meet people where they are, have a lot more one on one talk with them, try to build that relationship. And I was, you know, also with finance people, it was not just business people there so that you get to know them and they get to know there's, there's real people in this.

Right.

We all want the best for, for the company. Let's figure this out together rather than me telling you are not meeting your targets. Figure something out. It never helps. You could do that once in a crisis situation. Maybe you can't do it the second or third time.

Right.

So. So we needed to find a different approach.

Yeah. No, I agree. Rarely can you do that. Like you said crisis situation once or twice. Maybe, but it really needs to be more. Hey, here's the situation we're in. What do we do? It needs to be about we, not, hey, you're missing your numbers. I think anytime you do that, you remove yourself from the business and it can come across either you're superior or it's not your problem. Where if you're going to be a partner, they want to feel like you're there to solve it. At least that's not what I've always thought. Right. If they're not feeling like you're there to solve it, they don't see you as a partner. And it makes it really, really hard to consistently do good work. You just can't without them at least seeing you as a partner versus, you know, someone they have to work with or an obstacle. We've all heard the terms, you know, cf. No. Or the. No police or whatever. Right. All the, all the things people think about finance when we don't partner. Just relying on the facts.

Exactly. And of course, you know, we all people, we all have opinions about everything.

Right.

But if you don't have a justifiable expertise in an area, we're just another person with an opinion.

Right.

And that's not necessarily so helpful. So that expertise really needs to, To. To be there as well.

You know, I think that's one of the reasons it's so important for FP and a. And business partners to learn the business. Not that we're going to become an expert at the level of the guy that spent 20 years, but if we.

Oh, I agree, agree.

All right. So, you know, in step four of your framework, it's arguments and facts. You mentioned evidence can be soft. When you say soft. Elaborate on that.

Yeah. So, you know, hard evidence is typically, at least from an FBA professional space that. That's numbers.

Right.

So we have hard numbers that underlines these, these particular things. But soft evidence can be, you know, conversations with people.

Right.

So we're always talking about data as.

You know, something that want our opinions when we're in conversations to carry weight. We need to take time to really learn the business.

That could be quantitative or quantitative Right. So qualitative data is usually more that soft type of evidence, right. Where you've actually gone out and have had a few conversations with people around the organization that in one way or another either impacted by the current situation.

Or can impact it, listen, understand it so we can speak intelligently. How often do you see that as a problem, you know, with reports and different things is the people are just coming from that spreadsheet and really have no idea what's going on. They've never spent a day with cells or on the phone to really understand how it works versus the numbers.

I see it too often. Right, and, and you can probably echo that as well, Paul, that you know, we have for the better. So you get their opinions and insights into this. It's not necessarily facts, right. Or hard evidence because it's opinions of people. But you know, if you gather enough of that or if it's, you know, the people you talk to, they're really the true experts in, in their field, then that's actually pretty hard evidence already.

Right.

But it's just to, to make us think more broadly about the data sources that we are using to actually get, get to facts, get to evidence for the arguments for the recommendation.

Right.

Because we may be thinking a bit too narrow about it.

That's really it. It's the qualitative stuff and spend enough.

Time in the business to really understand how things work. And of course you can do kind of but.

And it's that subject matter or expert knowing that often it's going to be.

Bigger things. Like for instance, when I worked at the container shipping, I went to a terminal or when I worked in drilling, I went to a drilling rig. Right. So you could do those kind of things. But it's also the little things in the daily work or in your monthly cycle, whatever it is, right. Where you actually curious about what's going on in the business. You may ask your stakeholders, so what's on your mind at the moment? How do you see things?

But if you talk to enough people, like you said, you generally have a good idea. Like If I ask 10 people in the business what the problem is and nine say the same thing and they all have 20 years of experience, I would be really dumb not to give that some weight and to talk to that versus just relying on the facts.

Exactly. And of course, you know, we all people, we all have opinions about everything.

Right?

But if you don't have a justifiable expertise in an area, we're just another person with an opinion.

Right.

And that's not necessarily so helpful. So that expertise really needs to be, what are your top three priorities? How can I help with those? And then, you know, let's say you start a new in a company, a new FPA role and you're supporting a specific area or a business unit.

Right.

You don't necessarily know much about this. You come from another industry. So you can of course do some desktop research to learn about the industry, but you could really be there as well.

You know, I think that's one of the reasons it's so important for FP and A and business partners to learn.

Just go to your main stakeholder and say, hey, you know, I want to help you be successful. Let's talk about your three priorities. And as we then do that, over the coming months, I will learn more.

About this learning the business. Not that we're going to become an expert at the level of the guy that spent 20 years, but if we want our opinions when we're in conversations to carry weight, we need to take time to really learn the business and understand it so we can speak intelligently. How often do you see that as a problem, you know, with reports and different things is the people are just coming from that spreadsheet and really have no idea what's going on. They've never spent a day with cells or on the phone to really understand how it works versus the numbers.

I see it too often.

Right.

And you can probably echo that as well, Paul, that you know, we haven't spent enough time in the business to really understand how things work. And of course you can do kind of bigger things. Like for instance, when I worked at the container shipping, I went to a terminal or when I worked in drilling, I went. Questions will be sharper, smarter, more insightful. And my only promise to you is that I'm here to help you and I will build on every single piece of knowledge that you give me. All right, so if you give that promise, it doesn't matter how much business acumen or understanding we have for the specific industry, we will get there and we will drive value together with the business we support.

Yeah. So leads me to a follow up question. What do you do when you have a person that basically doesn't want you there? They don't answer the questions. They kind of like, hey, into a drilling rig, right.

So you could do those kind of things, but it's also the little things in the daily work or in your monthly cycle, whatever it is, right. Where you actually curious about what's going on in the business. You May ask your stakeholders, so what's on your mind at the moment? How do you see things? What are your top three priorities? How can I help with those? And then let's say you start anew in a company, a new FP and a role and you're supporting a specific area or a business unit.

Right.

You don't necessarily know much about this. You come from another industry, so you can of course do some desktop research to learn about the industry when you could read.

I'll come find you if I need you. Any advice of how you kind of break down those barriers to start building a relationship with somebody that maybe they've been burned or they just don't want to deal with finance?

So it's, it's one of the questions I get most often.

Right.

My, my simple take on, and I'll try to make some nuances to it of course as well, is that I have not met a business leader yet. Just go to your main stakeholder and say, hey, you know, I want to help you be successful. Let's talk about who was not interested to work with me when my starting point was I'm only here to your three priorities. And as we then do that, over the coming months, I will learn more about this. My questions will be sharper, smarter, more insightful, and my only promise to you is that I'm here to help you and I will build on every single piece of knowledge that you give me. All right, so if we give that promise, it doesn't matter how much business acumen or understanding we have for the specific industry, we will get there and we will drive value together with the business we support.

Yeah. So leads me to a follow up question. What do you do when you have a person that basically doesn't want you there? They don't answer the questions. They kind of like, hey, I'll come find you if I need you. Any advice of how you kind of break down those barriers to start building a relationship with somebody that maybe they've been burned or they just don't want.

To deal with finance to help you be successful? We either win or we lose together.

Right?

So there's no you and me, there's only a we. Right. Or they say there's no iron team and then someone finds an ir, you know, but, but that's really what it's about. So no matter how much they have been burned before, and you know, I've had stakeholders that have been, weren't before at least were dissatisfied with the support they were getting, they were willing to Give me a chance to prove that finance could be something. So it's, it's one of the questions I get most often, right. My, my simple take on it and I'll try to make some nuances to it of course as well is that I have not met a business leader yet who was not interested to work with me when my starting point was I'm only here to help you be successful. We either win or we lose together.

Right?

So there's no you and me, there's only a we. Right. Or they say there's no Iing different. Then of course I need to use my skill and effort and everything else abilities to team and then someone finds an I, you know, but, but that's really what it's about. So no matter how much they have been burned before and you know, I've had stakeholders that have been, weren't before at least were dissatisfied with the support they were getting. They were willing to give me a chance to prove that finance could be something different. Then of course I need to use my skill and effort and everything else abilities to, to prove that. But that always give you a good starting point, right? So maybe they are out there people who never wanted to work with any single finance person ever. But yeah, at least I'm here to prove them wrong.

Good, I'm glad you haven't had that experience and I appreciate the advice there. So kind of getting back to the framework, you know, last we talked about arguments and facts. Step four, your fifth step, the call to action. Maybe talk a little bit about that and you know, why, why you think people struggle with that and how we can do better. FB and a guy here. I want to share a brief message from one of our sponsors. Get up and running fast with planning that grows as you do with kpon's Microsoft based solution. You implement quickly, integrate data seamlessly and scale with self service so you can adapt faster, plan with confidence and realize real ROI from FPA to capex.

Proof that. But that always give you a good starting point. Right? So.

And workforce planning and beyond.

Learn more@kpon.com yeah so obviously already in step three, you sort of come with a recommendation, right? Of course that recommendation might be rejected or lead to a discussion about doing something differently. But we've all been in many of those meetings where actually the conversation was pretty good. A lot of good stuff was discussed and actions were debated and whatnot. But then we kind of left the meeting without kind of having that common agreement about these are the three actions to take. And you Know, it's Tom digging Harry that needs to take the actions and whatever. Whatever.

Right.

So the call to action is as simple as, let's just confirm what actions are we going to take, who is taking them and in what timeline and what impact would we kind of expect from these actions? Because that first and foremost gives agreement in the team, the group that you're having the meeting with, but it also gives you the license to follow up.

Right.

If there's no agreement in detail about what to do, how are you going to follow up on this? You can say, hey, you know, Tom, we had this great meeting. We discussed a lot of things. Did you do what we discussed? And Tom was like, I wasn't actually quite sure what I was supposed to do, so I was a bit hesitant and I thought, I'm just going to wait for the next meeting. Okay, then the month has come and gone, right?

Yeah, we've all seen that you get in the next meeting. Oh, I didn't realize what my assignment was. So that call to action, make sure everybody knows what they're supposed to do coming out of the meeting. Just because you've listed the recommendation and everybody mentioned in the meeting they liked it doesn't mean someone's going to go away and implement it unless you explicitly make sure that you get the, you know, you ask for that. Yes, you get the. Yes, you get that agreement and that plan going forward. Those are the worst meetings when you walk away and everybody's like, okay, why was I there and what are we doing? And I've been guilty of running those meetings and I've been in plenty of them. I'm going to guess you have as well, unfortunately.

Yeah, yeah. No, I think, I think we've all been there.

Right.

And that's really what the whole framework is about, that every single interaction you have, whether it's the 30 seconds pitch at the coffee machine that we often talk about, or it's the 30 to 60 minute monthly management meeting. Use this structure to drive forward the conversation, to drive forward actions that will improve performance and help us meet or beat the targets.

Yeah, no, totally agree. So I'm curious, if someone wants to read your book, when exactly does it come out? How do they get a copy? Talk a little bit about that.

Yeah, so it's published by Wiley and it will come out, I think end April in ebook form and then early June in a physical form. I'm not sure if they do print to order or whatever they do, but at least you can also get your physical copy and it's right now available on pre order on all the major sites from Amazon to Barnes and Nobles. If you're in the US to many local sites, you can also go to Wiley.com and find it as well. So if you just Google communicating financials to executives and your favorite bookstore, hopefully they have it right. So it's actually. It is. It's out pretty, pretty widely. So that, that's, that's also kind of exciting.

So it's published by Wiley? Yeah, that's a pretty wide distribution. Well, that's exciting. It'll be really great to see that book come out. I look for the when I meet you to get my signed copy someday so I can feel famous like you.

Well, you also famous pulsers.

What is the number one technical skill FP&A professionals should master financial modeling. All right. Why?

Because it's the basis for most be able to essentially in your spreadsheet build a model. You know I, I haven't worked specifically in FP and a for forward the conversation to drive forward actions that will improve performance and help us meet or beat the targets.

Yeah, no, totally agree. So I'm curious if someone wants to read your book, when exactly does it come out? How do they get a copy? Talk a little bit about that.

Yeah, so it's published by Wiley and it will come out I think end April in ebook form and then your physical copy and it's right now available on pre order on all the major sites from Amazon to Barnes and Nobles. If you're in the US to many local sites, you can also go to Wiley.com and find it as well. So if you just Google communicating financials to executives and your favorite bookstore, hopefully they have it right. So it's actually. It is, it's out pretty widely. So that's also kind of exciting.

So it's published by Wiley. Yeah, that's a pretty wide distribution. Well, that's exciting. It'll be really great to see that book come out. I look for when I meet you to get my signed copy someday so I can feel famous like you.

Well, you're also famous both.

All right, so now we're going to move into some sections where I add some kind of standard questions. We have a little bit of fun with this. So the, the first one I ask every guest this and I love to see the different answers. What is the number one technical skill FP and a professional should master financial modeling. All right. Why?

Because it's the basis for most of the things that we do in FP&A and even if we use AI or different kind of automation tools to, to do the modeling, we still need to understand the basics of it and how it works and be able to essentially in your spreadsheet, build a model. You know, I, I haven't worked specifically in FP and a for for a number of years besides an interim assignment here or there. But actually yesterday I had to build a small financial model to do a three month outlook for our own business. So this is just such a core skill for FPA professionals to do well. And you also have a financial modeling podcast, right? So I'm sure you also know that this is a skill that many people are interested in developing further.

For sure. I mean, it is a critical skill. It's very important and you know, lots of people listed as number one, so you're definitely a good company. There's two or three things that often get repeated and modeling is one of them. As you could guess, spreadsheets are another and there's a few others that get mentioned a fair amount.

So what about to, you know, do a three month outlook for our own business?

So this is just that softer human skill. What's the one we need to master?

Well, it shouldn't come to anyone as a surprise, also given the topic of today's talk, that is communication. You know, everything in life and work for that matter, boils down to moments of communication. You know, whether it's at work, with your boss, the management meeting, your spouse, at home, your kids, it's all about communication. And the better you are at that, the better you'll do in life. It's really that simple. So for Open Air professionals, if you can communicate well in a language that your stakeholders understand, be they in finance or listen stakeholders, you will be so much better off for it.

And so I'm curious, what do you think the key is to being a good communicator? Is it, you know, is it listening? Is it empathy? Is it storytelling? Is it, what do you think is kind of that core that makes someone a good communicator?

Structure. If you have a good structure, you don't have to be a comedian or a journalist or anything like that. Of course, you know, they all need to be good at communication in their own various ways. Such a core skill for FPA professionals to do well. And you know, you also have a financial modeling podcast, right? So I'm sure you also know that this is a skill that many people are interested in developing further.

Yep, for sure.

But if we set that as the ideal for, for an fpa professional, we're all thinking we are horrible communicators, right? But if you have a good structure, even the worst public speakers can actually communicate something meaningful in a way that the audience will actually listen and go along with their storyline. That's what the framework is all about, right? That you get that structure to run the meeting or do the business case presentation, whatever it might be that FPA professionals need to communicate.

Got it. So structure. All right. What do you see as the greatest challenge facing FP and a moving forward?

So, of course, maybe some would say, like, it's AI, right, that, you know, is coming to take the jobs and whatnot, but AI is really just an enabler of us to be able to do our jobs better. So the biggest challenge is really to, you know, go along with that transformation and transform from being, let's say, numbers people or number crunchers to becoming people. People that are good at communicating, that are good at building relationships, that are good at influencing. Because, you know, the tools, they will do most of the work. And, you know, tools, right. Pulse.

I mean, it is the critical skill. You know, it's very important. And, you know, lots of people listen.

You know, that they're. They're really coming along really, really well, so they can do a lot for us.

Right?

And we need to embrace that and say, hey, that's really cool. Now I can. Whatever it is I need to do. Because today as professionals, they're so busy and they can't take additional requests and they're, you know, running all these different reports and analysis and whatnot. They're doing tools. AI can do a lot of that for them, and that's great. It's not a threat. That's great because it elevates us to be able to communicate and influence our insights and then having an impact on the business.

Got it. Thank you. Appreciate that. All right, we're going to move on to the get to know you section. I have a fun. A couple questions going to ask our audience can learn more about you. So I'm going to start with this one. If you could have any one superpower, what superpower would you have?

So, you know, I guess we have to stay in the realm of communication. So I probably wanted to be the world's best listener because I can communicate really well when I say something. But I would love to be much better at listening and turning that into an advantage.

I like that. So we'll call you the super listener. All right. What's your favorite hobby or passion? What are you doing in your Free time.

Yeah, it probably said the same thing when we had the last podcast poll, but I'm still a bowler. Been bowling since 1995. I don't know if someone wants to make a song out of that.

Right.

But, yeah, that's just, you know, I get out and, you know, get to do something different with people that I wouldn't normally meet in my. My normal life. And. Yeah, the thing I like about bowling is that in theory, everyone can bowl a perfect 300 round, but if you, on any given day, you can actually win against even the best on average. Of course, you would not. But if I play an American football game against the Philadelphia Eagles with my 20 buddies, we will lose every single time. That's what I like about that game, that I actually have a chance to, to win, even in. In. In the toughest of. Of situations. And I always have a chance. Whenever I start a new series, this could be the time I bowled a perfect 300.

Right.

Have you bowled a 300 yet?

No, only 268, I think, is the max, so. Only.

I don't know. That's pretty good.

Well, it's, It's. It's not bad. But, yeah, it's. It's. I usually say that, and I'm an amateur, right. But amateurs, they can usually do like five strikes in a row, and then kind of their fear and anxiety for how to actually get the next one kind of kicks in. So you often see like, after four or five, then they fail. So you can kind of bank on that if you're playing against a team that has someone going on a street there.

Got it. Interesting. All right. If you could recommend one book other than your own to our audience to read, what book would you recommend?

Strategy beyond the Hogger Stake. It's a book by McKinsey Partners. I think Sven Smith, a senior partner of McKinsey in Switzerland, is one of them. And I had the pleasure of meeting Sven some years back. We were doing a roundtable on business partnering, and he came in to talk about this book, I think, in 2019 or something. And what I really like about this book is first it tells us, you know, what's the size of the price if we succeed with our strategy as a company? And then it also talks about 10 different levers of strategic value creation that we need to tap into, and we have to make some strategic choices in terms of how to do that. But then for FPA professionals, what's really cool about this book is that the last part of it talks about eight shifts. We need to do to our strategy process to make it work. And McKinsey doesn't talk about FP and A or finance. Really mentioned the CFO here and there in the book, but it's really not a core theme. But when I read about these eight different shifts, I'm like, well, that's FPA, that's FP&A. That's also FP&A again. So, you know, talking about that being national cheating business partner. Buy that book and you will know what to do.

All right, thank you. Appreciate that. That's a great, great mention there. Strategy is always an important thing for FP and A to understand. You know, as we wrap up here, we're nearing the end of our time. If you could offer some final advice to our audience around business partnering. What advice would you give?

Get to know your stakeholders. Not on a private level, but, but on a personal level. Right. So you, you want to be there at least in a work setting. Best friend, right. You want to be the person that helps them be successful. That means you get to know them. And this can be uncomfortable and challenging for many, myself included, but that's how you build relationships. And if you have a good relationship where they know your intentions are good, the management meeting, your, your spouse at home, your kids, it's all about communication. And it's hard to do anything wrong. And it's much easier to get buy in and acceptance for whatever insights and recommendations that, that you come with. So that's, that would be my number one kind of advice.

Well, thank you. So as we wrap up here, if someone wants to learn more about you, get in touch with you, what do you recommend for them, best ways to do that.

Yeah, you can always find me on LinkedIn.

Right.

That's kind of my, my go to platform. And you know, if someone messages me there and it's, it's a sensible message, you know, they usually have a response within a day. So that would be the go to platform. And you know, by all means, you know, I also like to see you in the comments.

Right.

Share your thoughts out there. I also always acknowledge that with a response as well.

Great, I appreciate that and appreciate having you on the show. Good luck with your book launch. It's definitely a subject that's important to all of us in finance and in life. Communicating is critical. We can't be successful in FP and A and in finance in general without being able to communicate. So thanks for carving out some time today, Anders. Really appreciate it.

Thanks a lot, Paul. I really appreciate you also carving out space in your schedule to have me on the show.

Yep. Well, thanks for coming. Thanks for listening to FP&A tomorrow. If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a five star rating and a review on your podcast platform of choice. This allows us to continue to bring you great guests from around the globe. As a reminder, you can earn CPE credit by going to earmark cpe.com downloading the app, taking a short quiz, and getting your CPE certificate to earn continuing education credits for the FPAC certification. Take the quiz on Earmark and contact me, the show host, for further details.

Communicate well a language that your stakeholders understand, be they finance or business stakeholders. You will be so much better off for it.

And so I'm curious, what are you retelling? Is it, you know, what do you think is kind of that core that makes someone a good communicator structure?

If you have a good structure, you, you don't have to be a comedian or a journalist or anything like that. Of course, you know, they all need to be good at communication in their own various ways. But if we set that as the ideal for an FNA professional, we're all thinking we are horrible communicators, right? But if you have a good structure, even the worst public sector.