Leadership, Strategy, and the Evolving CFO Role in Modern Finance with Jack McCullough

Fundamentally great FP&A people. They empower people to make better decisions faster.

30% of S&P 500 CFOs that left their job left them to become CEO.

The idea that 90% of CFOs are going to come from that sort of farm system, it just doesn't make sense in the modern world. It appears that CFOs tend to change jobs every two and a half to five years depending upon. It's not a lot of good things come from working for psychopaths. There are some very successful CEOs who a lot of people think are psychopaths. You can make yourself absolutely miserable, especially as a cfo. You don't want to work for a company that was perceived as unethical. The best thing that an FPA person can do. Don't get bogged down in the numbers. Salespeople make a huge mistake not bringing CFOs on customer visits. It was the resilient leaders that kept their companies together and actually made them not just survive but thrive.

Where do you get started to become a better leader?

The main thing, I think that makes better leaders foreign.

A message from this week's title sponsor. If you're a finance leader that is still budgeting and spreadsheets, you know your model is one change away from falling apart. It doesn't have to be this way. Abacum is the leading mid market FPA solution trusted by hundreds of companies to eliminate the spreadsheet struggle. Visit Abacum IO today and multiply the impact of your finance team. Hello everyone. Welcome to FPA Tomorrow where we delve into the world of financial planning and analysis, examining its current state and future prospects. I'm your host, Paul Barnhurst and I'll be guiding you through the evolving landscape of fpa. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting your journey in FP&A, this show has something for everyone this week. I'm thrilled to welcome to the show Jack McCulloch. Jack, welcome to the show.

Thanks, I appreciate the invite. I've been looking forward to some time and it's going to be a great conversation as they always are when you and I get together.

Yeah, we have a lot of fun. I know we did one on my prior show, FP A Today and that was great. So I'm looking for some fun information again. Let me give just a little bit of a background on Jack and then we'll jump into the first question. I have my standard question I ask everybody. So Jack comes to us from the Boston area in Massachusetts. He's the President of the CFO Leadership Council. He did a BS in Accounting from Suffolk University and his MBA from mit. He's an avid speaker, host of the podcast Secrets of rock star CFOs and author of two books. One book is by the same name as the podcast secrets of rockstar CFOs and and my favorite title is the psychopathic CEO because I've worked for a few myself, so I like that title. We like to start with this question for every guest. In your opinion, your experience, what does great FP and A look like? What is great fpa?

You know, it's a great question because the answer constantly changes. But fundamentally, great FP and A people, they empower people to make better decisions faster. And that's an oversimplification, but it's the tools are there, the workforce is there, the expertise is there. It's a critical, critical skill. I said a couple of years ago, I said probably two years ago that by 2030 there would be more CFOs who grew up in FP and A than the traditional controllership route. I believe that's what's going to happen because FP and A is all about the future. How to consider it, how to prepare for it, how to react when things go off a little bit. It's such an invaluable skill. It empowers CFOs and through them, the entire organization.

I couldn't agree more. I really love the way you described it there and I know you and I have talked about that before, of how FPA is a great springboard to become cfo. And I think what I saw, I saw a study last year that said 30% of S&P 500 CFOs that left their job, left them to become CEO. And I think that speaks to just the strategic nature of finance today becoming so commercial and forward looking versus just controls. And FP and A is a microcosm of that because it's that forward looking organization. Thoughts on that?

Yeah, you're absolutely correct. And it's my first CFO job I got in 1997 and I was a CPA and I largely got the job because I was really good accountant, good at, you know, cost control and closing the books and financial reporting and strategic enough. No one was really looking to me, or bluntly most CFOs of my generation for sort of that strategic acumen. And now it's almost flipped a little bit. They're looking for somebody who's a strategic thinker, a genuine partner to the CEO who's good enough at finance and accounting. It's not a complete 100% flip. You know, I do remind people that the F and CFO does stand for finance. You know, it is actually a valuable skill to have, but sort of the idea that, you know, you have to work in a large public accounting firm, become a controller, and then you're ready to become a CFO still happens. And, you know, if that's your career path, that's absolutely great. But the idea that 90% of the CFOs are going to come from that sort of farm paint, basically. Hey, do you know who invented Whiteout?

I do not.

Your. Her son was famous. Do you remember a band called the Monkeys? They had a TV show.

Oh, yeah. I loved that show as a kid.

I think it. I think Michael Nesmith's mother invented Whiteout. I. I think we cost just two thirds of you.

He's just dropped off Random Facts with Jack. That's what we're going to call this, this episode now. So I want to ask you, before we jump into how you crush a board deck, I want to talk about a board deck, because I know you've prepared a lot of those. I wanted to ask you, how's your podcast going? You launched a podcast. I know you've had some great guests. Any favorite memories from the podcast? Like, has there been some questions you've asked or a guest that's just been really unique or anything that really stands out to you, that you're like, wow, I would have never expected that.

Boy, I've had so many good guests, and I hate to, like, snub people. I'll say. One that I thought was really good was the CFO of Johnson and Johnson, because his father actually worked in the warehouse as a young man, and I think he had an aunt that was a secretary, as they called them back in the day, at Johnson and Johnson. So this is definitely like, Joe was a blue collar kid, grew up, you know, Johnson and Johnson. It's. It's in the day. It's like everybody in town worked there, right? You know, they're just that big. Gene had the same effect in the Boston, Massachusetts area. It's like everybody worked at GE or Bell Labs at some point in their life, but it was like that. And then like, he, he grew up to, you know, to work at. Become the CFO of Johnson and Johnson. I thought it was just a great story. And, you know, my podcast, I do focus more on the person's journey and the CFO themselves, as opposed to the company that they're working for at a given point in time.

So, yeah, I love hearing those stories. Especially people that came blue collar really work their way up. I always have an appreciation for people who have done that.

Absolutely. And I have a. I'm learning that one out of four CFOs who were born in the United States or raised in the United states worked at McDonald's in their life. It's, you know, because I do ask, you know, what was your first job? It's remarkable how often I get McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's.

So what was your first job?

My first job, I worked at a dishwasher as a. If you don't count paperwork. My first job, I worked at a dishwasher at a seafood restaurant on Lake Winisquam in New Hampshire. So it's called the Rusty Anchor. So.

So you did have a paper out? I had one as well. Our younger audience is probably Papers. What's that?

Yeah, I got up an hour before my sisters to work on the paper. I made like $6 a week. Like, why did my parents make me do that?

My parents did it with pretty much all of my siblings. I think all seven of us at one point had responsibility for the paper route. We probably did it for like 30. My dad probably did it for 30 straight years. We're driving people around a lot of times, depending on who it was. My sister always got drove around. I usually was on my bike.

Yeah, I. I was a bike, too. Yeah. My sisters, they had babysitting jobs back then. Girls babysat, boys had paper roofs.

So, yeah, I. I get it. My sister did the paper out, and I don't think she ever had to ride the bike on it. Like, hey, wait a second. But it was also early in the morning, so I get it.

Yes.

All right. So board presentations, in your mind, what's. What's the key to making sure you put together a board deck? A good board deck.

Yeah, I'd say the main thing. There's two things. First of all, understand your audience, right? If your board member is a group of scientists versus people who maybe are from a VC firm or who are CFOs from publicly traded companies or something like that, they're just going to have different expectations from what a CFO presents. It's got to be the same facts, of course, but it's how you present it. So understand the composition, the expertise, the level of financial literacy, and slightly different from that, their own perception of their level of financial literacy. I have found out that certain people think that they're financial experts, but they're not. Those are tricky to present in front of because they ask questions that they think are thoughtful and they're not. So really, you know, it's the main thing. Understand the audience and then define clear objectives. You know, before you even start it, just say, okay, what. What is it that I want people to come away with? Right. Usually the cfo, it's not cheerleading. You know, you leave that to the CEO and maybe the sales and marketing people if they're also presenting on it. But it doesn't have to be a dull, uninteresting presentation either. Right. If you're excited by the company's prospects, it's okay if that comes out during the presentation. On the other hand, if you're, you know, you have some concerns, this isn't the time to be a wallflower and keep those concerns to yourself. So it's a great opportunity. So define objectives, what it is that you want people to learn from your presentation. And always keep in mind the presentation is about the audience, it isn't about you. And finally, send it in advance. I learned this the hard way. You should just, as a good practice, you should be communicating with your board of directors regularly. I'm not saying daily, but there shouldn't be surprises at a board meeting. So, you know, if your company missed its numbers by 5%, they shouldn't be learning that at a board meeting. They should have learned it at the board meeting the month before in a conversation or something. I, I did do that once, and it's like, why am I hearing about this now? You know, I might have been able to help you. I might have been able to play a blah, blah, blah, so, you know, no new information. It's a platform to discuss information that everybody has had an opportunity to review before the meeting. So.

So how often should you be communicating with the board? Are you giving them like a monthly package? Like, how do you think about that? You know, I know you have your occasional board meetings, often quarterly for companies, but you mentioned, you know, no surprises. So is it just sending them the financials monthly, or how do you think about making sure they're aware before going in the board meeting? Is it just getting them the deck ahead of time or how do you think about that?

Yeah, I like, I encourage CFOs to, at a minimum, meet with the audit committee members, each one of them, preferably one on one, but again, if there's five of them, that might be a bit time consuming, but. But occasionally meet with them one on One, just to go over things without the CEO on the call, by the way, you're not doing it behind her or his back, but just, you know, their presence might inhibit candor. It might prevent them from asking questions that they want to ask of you. So you should proactively communicating with your board members between board meetings. Now. And the other thing is, you know, if you have 12 boards, 12 board members, you should probably meet with each of them again, one on one over zoom or whatever, two or three times a year. You know, there are companies that have 30 or 40 board board members. And you know, if, if you were just meeting with them two or three times a year each, you wouldn't be doing any other work. Right. So you've got to balance it a little bit. But there's such, you know, it's such an important relationship. And, you know, they do represent the owners of the company. Right. And they're a very underrated resource for CFOs, too. You know, the VP of Sales should call them because if you're trying to reach a customer, board member might know a board member at that company. You want advice, you need a connection, whatever. You should. The entire C suite should feel good about reaching out to its board of directors who, you know, invest in the company to make you more successful.

I really like the point where you emphasize look at them as a resource, because I've heard that where, oh, the board member knows so and so. And we got this customer because they introduced us. Right. If your board members are cheerleaders in helping you, there's customers they can introduce you to, there's things they've been through, or they can just be a sounding board. There's a reason they're on a board and it's not because they haven't done anything in there. Right. They're gonna have a lot of experience.

Yeah. Occasionally get one who's on the board because they have a rich parent.

But for sure, you always have one. Sometimes you have a CFO that has a rich parent.

Yeah. Or in my case, just because I was so good looking that I didn't have to put in the work to get the role. So.

Yeah, I wasn't gonna say that. I mean, your looks speak for themselves. Themselves.

But yeah, and I can say something like that because this is a podcast where most people won't actually know what I look like. So trust me, I'm handsome everybody. So. But yeah, so, you know, it's. It's really such an important relationship experience. Yeah. Occasionally get one who's on the board because they have a rich parent.

But for sure, you always have one. Sometimes you have a CFO that has a rich parent.

Yeah. Or in my case, just because I was so good looking that I didn't have to put in the work to get the role.

So, yeah, I wasn't going to say that. I mean, your looks speak for themselves. Themselves.

But yeah, and I can say something like that because this is a podcast where most people won't actually know what I look like. So trust me, I'm handsome, everybody. So. But yeah, so, you know, it's. It's really such an important relationship. And the side bonus there, Paul, is most CFOs, and there's a lot of data that's contradictory, but whom you ask. So, you know, it's really good if that's the case. If you have a board member with whom you have a really good relationship with, not only for the reference, but for your next job. I don't know. And you know, you know different people than me. I don't know anybody who's only on one board. You know, every board member I know is on three or four boards. Right. So, you know, you just go to them and say, hey, Paul, I've loved being part of this company for three or four years. I think it's good for my personal growth. By the way, I think you might benefit from a fresh perspective here looking for my next CFO job. Who do you know? So not only those companies, but each one of those companies has six board members. It's like, hey, you know, Mary's with a hot startup. You might be perfect for that. Let me introduce you to her. If you don't have that relationship, they're not going to go out of the way to help you, no matter how good you are at your job.

Now the real question is that a hot AI startup.

Yeah, yeah. There's one or two of those out there right now, right?

Yeah, one or two. That's probably about it. I think that you make a lot of great points because at the end of the day, job and work is. It's a relationship business, whether you're finance or sales or wherever you are so important to develop relationships as they'll help you in your career and not just because they'll help you. We should develop, you know, good relationships to be good people. But there's so many other benefits in that networking and really learning to know your board and develop that strong relationship.

Yeah. I mean, you know, being nice is its own reward. But yes, it, it also does have Some, you know, benefit to it. So.

Yeah, exactly. The next question I wanted to ask you is how do you balance. You mentioned you don't want to be a cheerleader, so how do you balance optimism versus reality? You don't want to be. You don't want to come in and be Debbie Downer either. We've seen kind of both extremes of that. So how do you balance that with the board? Because you want to make sure you're transparent. Any advice around that?

Hopefully optimism and realism are the same thing in most cases. Right. But there's a burden on the CFO boards. Expect them to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help them God, as the saying goes. So you can't. You don't spin things, you don't exaggerate, you don't make errors of omission. The board deserves and needs the full truth. It doesn't mean you have to present it in a negative way. Right. But you need to. But, yeah, you can't be a cheerleader. It's a juggling act all the time. What can get a little scary for CFOs is sometimes a lot of them have shared with me, they work for CEOs who are overly optimistic. And CEOs by their nature are optimistic founders of companies, they have to be believing what they wouldn't have started the company if they weren't. And then professional CFOs, they're very confident people. They think they can overcome any challenge thrown at them. It lends itself to a Natural Optimum. And CEOs by their nature are optimistic founders of companies, they have to be believing what they wouldn't have started the company if they weren't. And then professional CFOs, they're very confident people. They think they can overcome any challenge thrown at them. It lends itself to a natural optimism. Where it gets tough for CFOs is he's too optimistic. And I'm not even saying that they're lying. It's just if everybody thinks that the company is going to grow 14% year over year and the CEO is in front of the board of directors saying, I think we're going to grow at least 25 with a chance of 50%. What do you do there? If you're the CFO and you're in the room and he says that or she says that, right. Where it gets tough for CFOs is he's too optimistic. That's a really uncomfortable situation. Most of them would say you can't lie, but you don't have to go out of your way to say, hey, Frank's wrong. That's not the way it's going to go down. You know, if you're called on, you know, say, say a silent prayer if you know that sort of thing. But you won't be called again. I'm not even saying that they're lying. It's just if everybody thinks that the company is going to grow 14% year over year, but you know, if you're called on, you have to tell the truth. But as long as it's a difference of opinion, most people don't think that you have to like go out of your way to give your opinion. The issue is when it becomes here and the CEO is in front of the board of directors saying, I think we're going to grow at least 25 with a chance of 50%. What do you do there? If you're the CFO and you're in the room and he says that or she says that. Right. That's a really uncomfortable situation. Most of them would say you can't lie to the point of it's just an irresponsible opinion.

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Sure.

If you know, hey, that's just not possible. Right. It's one thing to be optimistic and so it's like, hey, you know, that's a great number that we do have some reservations about achieving that or whatever it might be. So people realize if you're asked, hey, there's real concerns and if it's completely wrong, sometimes you, you have to manage that. It's never a fun one. When it's like, no, no, that's just not right.

Yeah, exactly. You know, I worked at a company and the Guy who's very honest. But like, I thought his revenue projections were crazy. On the other hand, like his last company, he made them. It was a, you know, Inc. 50 company. It was the fastest growing company in Massachusetts. He took them public and they had a $6 billion market cap. @ a point, not a lot of Massachusetts companies of that age had a. So who am I to say that he's overly optimistic? Right. I might have felt it. And if, if a board member called and said, what do you think of this? I would have been truthful. But sometimes you get to have faith in the CEO's vision. And by the way, if you don't, maybe it's time to polish up the old resume. Too nutty. And it doesn't require lying. If you just, hey, I just, you know, she's not the one, he's not the one, whatever. You don't belong there. You know, you need somebody that you can believe in, that you can stand behind, that you think will get you through the rough times and that you want to work for and build something great with.

I agree with you. But what if they're a psychopath?

Yeah, that happens once in a while. Good luck with that because as you know, I did write a book on that. You know, that the quick advice is if you're convinced you're working for psychopath, you know, maybe start to make the graceful exit. So it's not. A lot of good things come from working for psychopaths. However, you know, one thing I've learned since I wrote the book is a lot of people associate psychopaths with evil. And often that in fact is the case. However, they're not inherently evil. Their biggest thing is they just can't. They have absolutely no sense of empathy. Everything exists for their benefit. So, you know, they're not crushing people because they get any pleasure from it necessarily. They're just this person's in my way. So I'm going to remove them and if it ruins their lives, they'll do it. But yeah, I've known people, several people since I wrote the book who worked for psychopaths. None of them look back on the experience fondly and say, but, you know, it was difficult, but it was a growth time for me. I'm glad I did it. I haven't had a conversation like that yet. And yet there are some very successful CEOs who a lot of people think are psychopaths. So, you know, I mean, one was Steve Jobs. A lot of people have thought he was a psychopath. Probably the best CEO of our lifetime.

Don't you think he has to be right up there? I mean, if he's not number one, he's top two or three for sure.

Yeah. I mean, there's, you know, history. There's, you know, Henry Ford, Steve Jobs, you know, Bill Gates. I think Elon Musk is probably in that category now, a handful of others, but, you know, not, not too many.

So I agree with you. And so, yeah, I, I think when we talked last time, I remember you mentioning Steve Jobs as an example. And it's a tricky in that. Yeah. Could you learn a lot from Steve Jobs? Sure. But if it's a unhealthy work environment, is that where you want to be? Everybody has to decide.

Yeah, you can make yourself absolutely miserable. And then again, Steve Jobs there would, despite his oddities, and maybe he wasn't the nicest guy, but there's no indication that he was unethical. In business, a lot of them are, especially as you don't want it at all. But especially as a cfo, you don't want to work for a company that was perceived as unethical. Right. I mean, they weren't psychopaths involved. But how would you want to present a resume that you worked for a company like Enron? Right.

I mean, yeah, if your list of companies is WorldCom, Enron, Arthur Anderson, you got a problem.

Yeah, yeah. So, but you know, you, you want. The one thing that you leave a job with is your reputation. You know, hopefully you make some money, get some learning experiences, but absolutely, the one thing that's going to follow you to the next one is your reputation and it better be a good one. So.

Agreed. So I want to bring this back a little bit more to the FPA community. We've talked a lot about the CFO and the board. How can they best support the cfo? And what's the role you've typically seen FP and A playing in presenting. You're not presenting, but preparing for decks. How should they think about it?

Yeah. You know, I'll say more and more though, I am seeing senior FP and A people who will present at board meetings.

Sure.

You know, they, they bring a skill set that a CFO, unless she or he grew up in FP and A may not have. Right. And CFOs are pulled in so many different directions. Controllers are better controllers than CFOs are FP and A people are better FP and A people than CFOs are Treasury people are better at treasury than. Than CFOs are etc.

Sure.

So, but again, the best thing that an FPA person can do, don't get bogged down in the numbers. You know, understand the business, understand the strategy, and then figure out how those numbers support both of those things to create growth and drive value. That's the main thing that CFOs and the C suite and boards of directors are looking for. How do these numbers create value? And FP and A people, generally speaking, don't speak in GAAP as their first language. Some of them do, but it used to be I, I went through an evolution. It's like, oh, every presentation has to have Gap. And then it was like, no, only talk to Gap when you're talking to accountants. And now I think even when you're talking to a finance and accounting people, don't bring up Gap except to the minimum that you have to, like with the audit committee. It's so arcane, you know, unless the person you're speaking to is a partner in an accounting firm or a college professor, you know, GAP may be a little bit beyond their reach. Right, so, so you know, FPA, understand the business, come up with KPIs that matter to your business and to your industry. And by the way, they might be different from person to person. You know, if you're talking to the VP of sales, there are certain, you know, they don't care about things about inventory necessarily, but you know, things about historic backlog trends, you know, growth projections, what regions are more profitable and what are not, what are the industries that emerging, things like that, that's what they want to hear. But if you're talking to a chief financial officer or maybe human resources executive, different stuff, you know, so understand your audience. It's critical.

Yeah, I appreciate that and I agree. We are seeing more FPA people be on boards. I worked at a company where we had someone that he was in corporate strategy, moved into fpa, but he was often in the board meetings and doing a lot of FPA work. And I think he was at a director level at the time. But you know, he was involved and this was a, you know, six billion dollar company CFO would often have him in there and because he had helped prepare the board deck and he knew the details and sometimes having somebody that can go and pull that number or even present something is really helpful for a cfo because you're not going to know everything.

No, it's, you're expected to, but you know, the reality is, you know, other than you and I who are prodigious, you Know most of them. Most of us can't know everything. So I, I hope your audience don't think I was serious by putting us in that prodigy.

The last time I was a cfo, I knew everything. Wait, I've never been one. There we go.

Well, I, I was last in 2007, so it's been a little, a little bit of time for me. The job's changed a little bit. But, you know, it is interesting because I'm not sure that I would make it to the CFO level today. Like the, the young people who are getting CFO jobs, different skill set, different aptitudes, so smart, so well educated, so prepared, not knocking myself at all because I'm a confident guy. But there's just a lot of, A lot of young people making fantastic CFOs and it's their experiences academically, professionally, and just other things they bring to the table that I did not.

No, I see some of the people now, some of the skill sets they have, and I'm like, wow, I wish I could do that. Yeah, I know a little bit of what you're talking about. It's great to see because we want, that's what we want in finance, the best of the best. You want to see those top people reaching the CFO level and really helping drive the business forward because it elevates the finance profession for everybody. And, you know, we don't want to be viewed as the bean counter in the back office. And we all know the jokes, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, when I was young that the jokes were, you know, brutal. You know, the bean counter and the counting nerd type of jokes. Fact, my first boss, I believe I shared the story when we last spoke, but he, he was like an old school CFO and my first boss in the accounting profession, not, not at fast food restaurant types of jobs. But he was a old school, I mean, sales and marketing people used to call him bean counter and worse. And he used to call marketing arts and crafts. There was no effort to understand each other's businesses. Just he lived in accounting and finance and marketing. Lived in marketing.

So I get it. When I was in grad school, and this is just back 2006 to 2008, we used to tease everybody that was in marketing. Oh, those are just the fluffy people that can't understand the numbers. And now I have basically a marketing business and I'm kind of like, oh, wait, maybe that's not quite accurate hindsight.

Maybe you're a little bit harsh. So.

But exactly. So I Get it? But, yeah, we used to joke a lot about that. For, you know, the finance people, you're just the ones that just don't understand the numbers. That's why you're in marketing.

Yeah, they used to. We used to joke too, that the, the people that weren't really good enough at finance, we put them where they couldn't do any damage. Strategy, like, no one listens to them anyway. Now it's kind of. I don't want to say it's the other way around, but certainly strategy and finance are, you know, equal.

So, yeah, they go together. Well, funny story. We got a new CEO in a company talking about strategy. And I still remember this first meeting. He's meeting with the whole company. He'd been there a month or two, so I think it might have been his second meeting. But he's doing a big town hall to make some announcements. And he, he was very open. He goes, if anyone's seen our strategy, let me know. I still haven't been able to find it. So if you see it in a drawer somewhere, because the company just had no strategy, it was quite a mess. Hence why we had a new CEO and a big, big turnover. But it. It was just really funny. Like, wait, we're this big, huge company and we have no strategy, and you're admitting that to everybody?

Yeah, I. I don't know if you give kudos to that person or not, but sometimes the people who are blunt, they just shock you into action though, right?

So he, he was actually really good. I was impressed. But yeah, it did surprise me because you generally don't expect to hear that in a town hall to the whole company.

Yeah, you don't at all. Well, my funniest town, Coleman. We had a venture capitalist from a very prominent VC firm. He was on the board. So he was covering. He was speaking to the people, and everybody wanted to hear him. So, you know, everybody was there. The guy just forgot my name. He said, had a good presentation from your cfo, the bald guy. And then he went on like, he didn't say anything then. It was hysterical. The next. Next morning, someone said, check out the company's website. Whoever was the webmaster removed my name. It just. It had my picture and it said, the bald guy.

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Yeah, you, you would never let that go actually. So.

Yeah, exactly. Like the, the bald guy instead of your name for that. That's pretty.

That's pretty. Oh yeah, we left it up for like months.

Oh, I'm sure you heard about that for a long time.

The bald guy. Talk to the bald guy. So.

Yep, no, exactly. We never let him live it down either. So I want to ask you, before we move into kind of a standard set of questions I have, I want to ask you a little bit about leadership. I know you mentioned on your website one of the your favorite things to do is to help develop leaders. Why is that? Why do you enjoy so much working with people, become better leaders?

Yeah. Again, you know, I talk with a lot of finance and accounting professionals and I do tell people, look, with the CFO Leadership Council, if you want to become better, a better accountant or even a better finance person, you know, this may not be the right organization for you, but if you want to become a better leader, a better strategic thinker and a better, better overall business person, I think we can help you on that journey. But you know, leadership is where the action is. You're running companies, you're making an impact not only on the companies and the investors and the stockholders and your employees, your customers, but on the economy as a whole. And if you're just sort of doing a functional job that doesn't have leadership elements, and I'm not saying those jobs aren't important, but it's really the leaders of the world who are making the difference and making the world a better place, even for people that don't know who they are and you'll never come in contact with. But if you're helping your company survive, creating jobs, creating great technologies that improve the world, whatever it might be, you're really making an impact in a way that you can't just by being really, really good at finance and accounting.

So how, if somebody's listening, they're thinking, I want to become a better leader. How do they do that? Where do you get started to become a better leader?

The main thing I think that makes better leaders are there's, it's, it's more personality qualities than anything. I mean, the. For cfo, finance and accounting's table stakes, right? You're going to be pretty good at that and you wouldn't have the opportunity. But it is the leadership things that set you apart and it's things like empathy. Don't pretend to care, but actually show an interest in people. Your employees, your customers, your investors. Always be putting yourselves in yourself, in their shoes. Be empathetic, are transparent for any executive, but more so than any other for financial people. She means what she says and she says what she means. That's how you need to live your life when you're a cfo. Just transparent communications, you know, no presenting with your fingers crossed behind your back so you don't have to tell the full truth. That type of thing. Be very transparent. And, you know, the other thing is, you know, be resilient. When the company, you know, 2020, it was a test of resiliency, right? And during COVID and all of the other challenges that we faced shortly after, it was the resilient leaders that kept their companies together and actually made them not just survive, but thrive and be inspirational. But, but be truthful in being inspirational. You want to inspire people to take positive action that's in the company's best interest and their own best interest. So again, you know, sticking with the COVID thing, people wanted to hear from CFOs, you know, if their employees were struggling, why should I keep working here? Why should I be optimistic that I have a career path here? Over 90 days, they're going to believe it coming from the CFO more than from anyone else. Because CFOs inspire a lot of trust with people. So, you know, be inspirational, give them confidence. When you're talking to customers, salespeople make a huge mistake not bringing CFOs on customer visits. Sometimes, you know, during those crisis types of moments, it's like, I want to hear from the CFO and understand the plan to survive this crisis or why you're going to grow. I don't want to hear from you. You're. You're not lying, but you're always in sales mode, colors. Every communication we have, I want to hear it from the cfo. So, you know, be inspirational, be resilient, be empathetic.

So I like that. Empathetic, resilient, transparent. And he said one other.

There's actually five. I made an acronym in my head, but I to make it easy to remember. Then I myself forgot it. It's trice. Transparent, resilient, inspirational, collaborative, and empathetic.

Got it. Trice. I'll have to remember that. Hopefully I won't forget it in my head. We'll see. I mean, we are perfect, right? Isn't that what we said? We know everything earlier, so no one is.

But you and I are giving it a run for the money.

So something like that. All right, so I think we'll move on to kind of the standard questions we like to ask during each episode. I have a few standard FPA questions I want to ask. Then we'll do some where we get to know you a little better. So the first one is, in your opinion, what is the number one technical skill that FPA professionals need to master?

Would analytics be considered a technical skill in this case? I'll take it because I. I would say just an analytical mindset and a problem solving mindset. Here's a situation. Do a deep dive, Figure it out what's going right. By the way, solve problems that nobody else knows exist. That's the magic. When you see a problem that nobody else sees and not just point out the problem, come up with a solution for it. That's real value add. It's like, hey, we're doing great. You know, we're growing 25% a year. This is wonderful. But did you notice these two or three things that aren't wonderful?

Yeah. You know, we could improve margin 3% if we did X. Did you even know that was going on? Oh, no, That's a great idea.

Yeah, exactly. You know, there's upheaval in Brazil where we get 20% of our raw materials. It hasn't affected us. Now it's going to affect us in six months. We need to get an extra source, something like that.

So, yeah, 100%. That's a great. I like that one. Great point. What's the number one soft skill?

Well, we just sort of talked about all of them, I would say, I guess I'm always going to go with empathy for an FP and a person. You know, I always, you know, think of, if you're a public company, think of the grandparents who invested in the company who don't have your level of sophisticated expertise. You know, think of them. Think of the people in your organization and across the company who need this job. Think of the board member who's really working his or her butt off and just needs the best quality information to make decisions to drive the company forward. So just always put yourself in the other person's shoes.

Great advice. I really like that. We don't get. We don't get empathy very often, so I appreciate it. I think I've had one other person say that one.

So can I show you a story? And I, I wish the woman would let me say her name because it's a great story. But she was hired, she was hired as a cfo and it was. Is in a state that doesn't. It was probably the hottest job in her state at the time. And it's a state that does not have a lot of IPOs. It's not like a, an innovation hotbed by any stretch. But not, not California or not Austin, Texas, and not, not Eastern Massachusetts, but, but. So anyway, so the CEO, you know, hired her and, you know, she, they worked together for a couple of years. You know, she finally said she looked at all the candidates who, you know, he'd considered, found out about. It was like a who's who of CFOs. And it was her first CFO job. In fact, she was right out of public. He said, why'd you hire me over all of these people? And he said, well, it was one reference. He said, really? Who's the reference? And he said, well, it was someone you worked with at ey. His name was Frank Smith. Making up the name. And Frank Smith was a mentally challenged guy that worked in the library, grew up on the same street as the CEO. And he, he just said, hey, I'm curious. Do you know Janet, what she's like? And Frank said, yeah, she's the nicest person I've ever worked with at ey. If you can hire you Should. So, you know, there's something to be said about just being empathetic and just being fundamentally decent to people. Right?

Yeah. One of my favorite CFOs, I had someone asked about his success and he goes, because we're all a team, if something needs to be done, I'll pitch in. If we need to clean up, I'll pitch in. It's like I'm no better than anyone else. I just have a different role to fulfill. And I love that perspective. Just would roll up his sleeves and get his hands dirty. He understood what his responsibility was and knew when he had it, you know, be the boss. But he was just very empathetic, understanding, and ultimate team player. And I really admired that.

Yeah. And that's what, you know, and, and leaders are like that. Right. You know, and you've interviewed some great leaders, but one, Jack Harding, who's the CFO of Chipotle, one of the best CFOs in the game, could not get the guy to take a compliment. Everything. Oh, it's. I had a great mentor or I had a team that covered for me, or, you know, if I were to tell the guy how smart he is, he would have, you know, credited his mother's DNA for giving him an IQ or something. I mean, just, the guy doesn't know how to take credit for many of his compliments and they are legion. But that's what great leaders like, I think. You know, it's like they say, military heroes, war heroes, they never call themselves that. They never brag about what they did. Just, you know, I was with a great unit.

So yeah, they, they give credit to others. They almost always focus on the team. I couldn't have done this without the team. You can just see that in the greatest leaders, especially those that have empathy. It's amazing to watch how appreciative they are of others around them instead of, oh, it's my smarts that got me here.

Yeah.

So, all right, so one other fun one I like to ask, and I'll give you a minute to think about this one. If you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about FP and A, either the role or the profession, what would you change?

Change One thing about FP&A. I would give them better cross functional respect. I think CFOs and certainly great CFOs value FP and a value. They recognize what they do. But I think the other functions don't really appreciate the value of a well oiled FP and a machine. They really don't you talk to an FPA person for 20 minutes, you'll get it. But a lot of, you know, VPs of sales and marketing don't. They just, they don't call them bean counters, but they sort of think of them as something akin to that. Oh, Jesus. It's the numbers people. I've got to move product. How is some accountant going to do this for me, right? Once they work with them, hey, give them an hour. Tell them what the biggest challenge is that they can help you with. I just wish that there were. It's not even respect, it's understanding. I, I think I used respect early. And it's not that. It's underappreciation and lack of understanding of the true value that an elite FB and a person can bring that can make everybody better at their job.

I agree. I like that. That's a great one. One I had the other day that I think you'll chuckle at is somebody said, can I give everybody clean data? Sure. Says it's a magic wand. Go for it.

Yeah. Who would say, nope, I do not want that clean data. So.

All right, so now we're going to move into the get to know you section. I just have a couple questions here to get to know you a little better. So what's your favorite hobby or passion? What do you, what are you doing when you're not running cfo, leadership council or a podcast or whatever you do for work?

Well, as you know, Paul, I have two special needs sons who are adults and that, that does take up a lot of my time. You know, we're not able to travel and do a lot of things that, you know, my sisters and my friends and my cousins take for granted. So, you know, it's a lot of family stuff that I do with them, and it's wonderful. But, you know, it's just a different sort of challenge, I suppose. The, the one hobby that I've been able to do pretty consistently throughout this experiences. I'm. I've remained pretty steady to working out. You know, it. It sort of anchors me a little bit when I have a bad day. There's nothing quite like just going to the gym, blaring my rock and roll music, a little AC dc, a little Guns n Roses, and, you know, lifting heavyweights as I define them, they may be what I think of as heavyweight, may be a little bit different than it is for you, but, you know, just going to the gym or even I've. I stink at it. But I do do yoga. I. I don't know that I'll ever be good at yoga, but I do understand when people tell me the mental value that the exercise brings.

So sounds like exercise. Getting that time for yourself to really exercise, get some sweat, just feels good.

And allowed you to, you know, even if it's only for the length of the exercise, it makes the problems go away.

So, yeah, I been getting back into running a lot. It's always been my exercise and I noticed the difference when I run versus when I don't.

Oh, yeah, Yeah, I can. When I. Because I get busy periods where I. I don't want to say I can't, but I make excuses not to. You know, I could find 20 minutes, but. But actually I won't turn the camera, but I'm looking right behind me. I bought a little one of those dumbbell towers. So I have it literally, it's just in my office. So, you know, like you with running, you can get a run it you, you know, if you're running, it's not the best workout, but you can get a workout in 20 minutes, right? It's. It's better than not doing anything. And I've got my dumbbells. I can get a total body workout in with some moderate weight dumbbells. 20, 25 minutes is all this takes. And you know it. You make it work. Right? You make it part of your lifestyle if you want to.

That's just it. If it's, if it's important enough to you, you find a way to do it. We always talk about, I don't have time. And the reality is we choose not to allocate the time at the end of the day.

Yeah, I remember President Obama said that he missed like 11 scheduled workouts in eight years. I, I think likely he. And you know, I, I've heard other things about other presidents, but I think he likely was busier than, than you or I or anyone likely to be listening to this podcast. So.

Yeah, and it just shows it's all about priority. Like, I, you know, I know someone who said they asked him, when's the last time you missed doing something? And it was something that was very important to him. And he's like, oh, it's been 20 years. So I'm like, okay, that's why he's as good at what he is in that area because he. It's a priority. He does it every single day. So it's just a matter of figuring out how you make it a priority.

Yeah, exactly. You know, you're going to run into your no sleep till Brooklyn moments where you just. You've got a task with a very tight deadline and you can't miss the deadline no matter what. And you're going to give up anything that's non essential, so. But those are few and far between.

Correct. Hence the 13 or whatever number of days it was. You know, you have a war crisis. It's like, I probably can't go on my job.

Yeah. I probably can't golf today, so.

All right. If you could recommend a book to our audience, what book would you recommend? I mean, other than yours.

Dang. I thought it was a. Are you thinking a business book or just any book in general?

Can be any book. Any book you think would be beneficial to the audience doesn't have to be business.

Okay. Boy, I wasn't thinking that one through from a fictional standpoint. My favorite book was one I read in high school and it was the Catcher in the Rye.

Okay. Yeah.

That was the first time I read a book that I actually identified with the character. Smart, but a little messed up. You had trouble fitting in. That was kind of me in high school. So, you know, I definitely recommend that book or one that you, you know, a fictional character that you can somehow resonate with in terms of a business book. I likely have it right here. How about that? So, CEO Excellence. It's written by a team of consultants from McKinsey. Carolyn Dewar is the only one I've ever met. Brilliant as you might guess. It is a great leadership and strategy perspective. Even if you're not a CEO and even if you don't aspire to become a cfo. It'll just make you think of business, you know, in a different way than you otherwise would. So great.

Appreciate that. If you could travel anywhere in the world. Going on a trip tomorrow. Where would you go?

Favorite place I've already been is the Canadian Rockies. Absolutely loved it. It's breathtaking. It's peaceful, you know, friendly people that live there. So I would go back there for sure and. But if it's a new place, my wife and I, we wanted to go to Polynesia and then the kids came along and then we just never had the opportunity. So I, at some point I'd like to just take two weeks off and go to Polynesia.

That'd be a fun one. That's a good one. And Canadian Rockies. I haven't been up there. Obviously I live in the Rockies for the US So I get to enjoy those mountains. I just did Vancouver. I did get to see the ocean with some mountains a little different than the Rockies. For sure. So that'd be fun.

Vancouver, it's tough to believe that's a real city. It's so beautiful. You feel like you're in a Hollywood movie set.

Yeah, Gore, it was gorgeous. We did that. We did actually an RV trip and did all up along the coast and the out.

Oh, nice.

Saw some of the national parks, rainforest. It was fabulous. All right, last one. If you could have dinner with one person who's alive in the world, who are you going to take to dinner?

Okay. I won't say my wife.

We've had that a few times.

Yeah, I. A person that I'm absolutely fascinated by is Neil DeGrasse Tyson and you know, for one thing, one of the most brilliant scientists of our time or any time. But like when you listen to him speak, you wouldn't know it. He's very. He comes across as a very normal type of person. Very regular, very genuine, very nice. I would think 90 minutes to pick his brain, get to know him a little bit, get his insights. I think it would be just an absolutely fantastic experience.

Fun. I'll be a fly on the wall for that dinner.

Well, if you can set it up, you can join us. So.

All right, there we go. I'll see what I can do to set that up. He's not in my circle of influence, but maybe I can find him somewhere. Jack, thank you so much for joining us. Really enjoyed chatting with you as always. Love the advice you provided. You know, empathy, importance of board decks, transparency, all the different things we talked about. Leadership. And just have one last question for you. If our audience wants to get in touch with you or learn more about you, what's the best way for them to do that?

Sure. I'm actually a text maniac, so they can text me at 617-678-0957. My niece used to work for me when she was a teenager and she told me to stop. She said, you text more than any teenager that I've ever met. So if you need a quick, pithy answer, that's the best way. If you want something with a little more length and thought, Jack folc.com and feel free to follow me on LinkedIn too.

All right, great. Well, thank you, Jack. Really appreciate it. And you have a great weekend.

You too. Thanks, Paul. Always a lot of fun to catch up.

Thanks. Thanks for listening to FP&A tomorrow. If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a five star rating and a review on your podcast platform of choice. This allows us to continue to bring you great guests from around the globe. As a reminder, you can earn CPE credit by going to earmarkcpe.com, downloading the app, taking a short quiz, and getting your CPE certificate to earn continuing education credits for the FPAC certification. Take the quiz on earmark and contact me, the show host, for further details.