The Art of Financial Modeling and Data Management with Adam Rakich

What's your thought of modelers having some basic SQL skills?

It's really hard actually. A lot of people aren't dealing with SQL databases. I don't think I've seen one where you never ever needed to drop into SQL. A lot of people just don't know and they're scared of it. If you have a particular challenge, then it's worth having a look because do.

You think AI will build the models for us in the future?

I think they will, but I think that the people peddling AI suggesting a much nearer future than I have in my mind. Forever is a long time, but not enough, not close enough for us to change anything.

Excel bringing what Google Sheets has Sometimes.

You know you need a tool because your Excel book takes 20 minutes to open and half the time it crashes. Your PC spreadsheets are not multi use and even if the process is sort of okay, there's often a lot of benefit to it. Maybe the data reentry process can be better for the end user who might not be financed. If you're making a big strategic change in the business, you cannot make that decision based off.

Welcome to Financial Modelers Corner, where we discuss the art and science of financial modeling with your host Paul Barnhurst. Financial Modelers Corner is sponsored by Financial Modeling Institute. Welcome to Financial Modeler's Corner. I am your host, Paul Barnhurst. In this podcast we talk all about the art and science of financial modeling with distinguished guests from around the globe. The Financial Modelers Corner podcast is brought to you by the Financial Modeling Institute. FMI offers the most respected accreditations in financial modeling. I am excited to welcome to the show Adam Rakich. Adam, welcome to the show.

Thanks Paul. I'm delighted to be here.

We're excited to have you. So I'm just going to let our guests know. We'll jump into the normal first question here in just a second, but this episode we're going to talk a little bit about data, kind of accessing data, what Adam does around that. He's also worked a lot in the CPM space, quite a bit with data. So I thought it'd be fun to have a little bit of a different guest than somebody who is sitting building models all day. But I think there's definitely a lot we can glean from this. So really excited to have this discussion. But before we get to it, you get the same question everybody else gets. We all know everybody has that horror story if they've ever worked with a financial model, ever worked in a spreadsheet. So what's that worst model you've ever seen or that you had to work with?

Yeah. So I don't know if this counts as a cop out or a cheat answer, Paul, but I'm going to say a model that I built in.

But you're not the only one who's mentioned their own model.

All right, good. Okay, good, good, good. And the reason for that is. So I had. And you don't know it because. Not even on my LinkedIn because it was that brief. But out of university I started as an economist, so that's why I studied at university. I got a job with a specialist consultancy in Sydney and Australia because I'm from Auckland in New Zealand. I hated the job. I didn't last three months. But not just because of the model. Unrelated things, but. So what this consultancy did was working with regulated energy. So I think it was a distribution network. So you know, you have generation, then you have transmission with the big high voltage lines in distribution to your house, right? So because they have a monopoly on distribution in the city, they get a specific percent return on investment. It was a good one. So they want to maximize their investment, so the regulator knows that. So they have to justify the investment as being worthwhile to this to the city. I won't say which one, but it's one of the big cities in Australia, so they came to us, they want to build a new substation. I'm not 100% sure what a substation does, but it adds redundancy in case another couple of substations failed and the city has a blackout. Right. And from a modeling perspective, a lot of it was very easy because all the components in this sector have insanely detailed and well known failure rates. They're really, really small, like millions of hours one might fail. So multiply those by however many substations fail, you get a percent chance for a citywide blackout. Fine. Better than most modeling jobs, right? But what it was, why it was bad to me is because you then need a number for the cost to the city of a citywide blackout. And where do you get that assumption from? Why has it happened? Auckland had had its own blackout a few years prior. There were some numbers from there, but where did they come from? Who knows, right? Somebody made some really heroic assumptions and made up some figures. They got to a newspaper somewhere, we took them, made even more heroic assumptions to scale them up to a much bigger and completely economically different city. And that basis was so often what really sells it to the business is the reporting side, right? So we're Planning, everyone's planning in one place. We then just bring in the actual, We've got variance reporting that everyone has access to, markup reasons for variance and those sort of things. So it's not just like, hey, we're making you do a budget, but also, look, we're giving you really good reporting on your numbers, that sort of thing. Some people will still hate you, you can't really do anything about that, but you can do your best. Just take a step back and think, look, yes, we've been doing this for five years, but is this really the best it can be just because it's always taken that long, however many weeks to do the process, however many hours of your time to stick them together at the end? It doesn't, it doesn't have to be that way.

Yeah, no, I think that's a good answer. And typically I tell people when the pain is great enough that the, the benefit of flexibility you get from a spreadsheet is no longer worth all the cons that come with it. It's time to upgrade all the pain that comes. Like you said. Yes. Can it do some multi user stuff? Yeah, but is it really a scalable enterprise platform designed for easy collaboration? No, sure. Can Google Sheets get a little better? But there just comes a point like what you're talking about and different spreadsheets going around links breaking, your users hating you beyond the fact they just don't like to budget are all signs that, yeah, this may not be the best choice, you may need something more. And then that doesn't even get into dealing with all the data and integrating that, which we'll talk quite a bit about. So I think, you know, I'm with you. I've seen some of those same conversations.

Yeah. And I think the other thing as well is that people often point at, you know, Bob, who's doing some really specific revenue modeling and like, well, Bob will never go up spreadsheets and Bob's really important. So we have to do spreadsheets like, well, you don't actually have to have everyone on a tool. Right. Some tools will happily link, you know, go, well, he can do his insane Excel model and then have a tab which just then refreshes into the tool automatically. Or worst case, you can just dump it in. You don't, don't have to be held back by this weak link who just demands it.

Yeah, as they say, right. You'll price spreadsheets out of our cold dead hands is what finance people say. And that doesn't mean you can still have A tool. Many tools do a great job of integrating with spreadsheets and allowing you to work bidirectionally. Work both in a spreadsheet and in a tool. This isn't always an either or. And as I like to say, just because you have a tool doesn't mean you got rid of the spreadsheet. You're still going to use it for edge cases. There's still situations where it makes sense where you should use a spreadsheet. If I'm doing an M and A activity and I don't have all the data from the other company, I want to keep it very private. I don't want it in my M. There's probably a lot of reasons to just do that all in a spreadsheet and keep it separate.

And if you think to yourself and you're telling people, we're going to get rid of spreadsheets, you're setting yourself up for failure. Right? It's like, it's like if people want to go to the gym every day or diet or whatever, and if they, if they're going, I will do this every day. It means the one day they don't, oh, well, everything's falling apart the same. I've seen it where people go, we never want to see another spreadsheet in the business. That's not. That's too much. I mean, I like where you're coming from, but you're probably just making a problem for yourself by saying that.

You had to mention diet is. I totally had a terrible dinner last night, and it got on the scale this morning, and I was just like, oh, man, I need to take better care of myself. So you had to choose that one, didn't you, Adam?

I actually am afraid I regret to inform that I also had an. But see, I call it an excellent dinner out with a friend overs steak and sides and wine. So similarly.

Yeah, see, mine wasn't with a friend. I don't know that it was really an excellent dinner. It was just one of those I don't care moments that you have. I'm gonna eat this. This food, this junk food. But hey, we all do it, and sometimes it is excellent. I totally agree with you.

Well, I. I like to justify it because I'm with my friend. I don't see him very often.

So I get it. We all, we all have our justifications. They're. They're easy to. To come up with.

All right?

So I want to spend most of the rest of the time talking about data. Data is a challenge everybody faces. I think it's especially challenging in finance because often we're the center being asked questions about everything. You're bringing all that data together and modelers and everybody deals with that. So I know you specialize in helping people coming up with solutions to access all those various data sources with data blends. Why don't you talk about, talk a little bit about what you do and then what interests you in data? Why are you doing that? What are you finding enjoyable about helping people access their data?

Well, I mean, in terms of what made me say yes to starting this role, the thing about integration is that it's a sole.

Obviously you've had many of those conversations with customers, I'm sure, over the years.

Yeah, yeah, a lot. I mean, there's, I mean, sometimes it's really obvious. Sometimes, you know, you need a tool because your Excel book takes 20 minutes to open and half the time it crashes your PC.

Yeah.

If, if you're having that and you think that's, that's normal, it isn't. You should go, go and find a tool.

So you mean the 1 billion spread? The 1:1. It was 1 gigabyte spreadsheet. I had one time that was too big.

I know it's crazy, but take my word for it. Yeah, but otherwise actually say, hey, when should we consider it? And sometimes people would say that to me, like, hey, I like my spreadsheet, why should I move? And the answer is, a lot of the time, if you don't think you've got a problem, I'm not going to be able to convince you that you've got one. But sometimes you do need to step back and go, well, look, if it's just for you or a couple of people that you work with directly and that you can like go over and bother in person, ideally you're probably, you're probably fine. Look, you're probably going to get some benefit out of a tool, but you probably don't want to pay what they want to charge you to do it. The, the, the main push, almost all of the time is where you've got enough people involved that the planning process is painful. When you try and do on spreadsheets where you're sending out even like a relatively small amount, like 10 spreadsheets for basic G and A costs, you know, then every time you make a change, you've got to change 10 of those, you got to resend them, hope you don't make a mistake, hope they save the right one and don't send you back an old version, then you have to stack them together, you add them up, you hope you get it right, your links don't break. Right. Fundamentally, and I have had arguments from a couple of people, but spreadsheets are not multi user and anyone trying to make them that way, I mean, you're probably spending more time then you should on it. And even if the process is sort of okay, there's often a lot of benefit to a planning tool. Maybe the data entry process can be better for the end user who might not be financed. A lot of these users in planning, they hate you by default, right? They don't want to be doing budgeting, they hate it and they hate you. So anything you can do to make it easier, a nice workflow, some email reminders, that sort of thing. And actually so often what really sells it to the business is the reporting side, right? So we're planning, everyone's planning in one place within them is bringing the actuals, we've got variance reporting that everyone has access to, markup, reasons for variance and those sort of things. So it's not just like, hey, we're making you do, but also look, we're giving you really good reporting on your numbers, that sort of thing. Some people will still hate you, you can't really do anything about that, but you can do your best. Just take a step back and think, look, yes, we've been doing this for five years, but is this really the best it can be just because it's always taken that long, however many weeks to do the process, however many hours of your time to stick them together at the end, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be that way.

Yeah, no, I think that's a good answer. And typically I tell people when the pain is great enough that the, the benefit of flexibility you get from a spreadsheet is no longer worth all the cons that come with it. It's time to upgrade all the pain that comes, like you said. Yes. Can it do some multi user stuff? Yeah, but is it really a scalable enterprise platform designed for easy collaboration? No. Sure. Can Google Sheets get a little better? But there just comes a point like what you're talking about 10 different spreadsheets going around links breaking your users hating you beyond the fact they just don't like to budget are all signs that, yeah, this may not be the best choice, you may need something more and then that doesn't even get into dealing with all the data and integrating that, which we'll talk quite about, quite a bit about. So I think, you know, I'm with you. I've seen some of those same conversations.

Yeah. And I think the other thing as well is that people often point at, you know, Bob, who's doing some really specific revenue modeling and like, well, Bob will never give up spreadsheets, and Bob's really important. So we have to do spreadsheets like, well, you don't actually have to have everyone on a tool. Right. You, some tools will happily link, you know, go, well, he can do his insane Excel model and then have a tab which just then refreshes into the tool automatically. Or worst case, you can just dump it in. You don't, don't have to be held back by this weak link who just demands it.

Yeah. As they say, Right. You'll pry spreadsheets out of our cold, dead hands is what finance people say. And that doesn't mean you can still have a tool. Many tools do a great job of integrating with spreadsheets and allowing you to work bidirectionally. Work both in a spreadsheet and in a tool. This isn't always an either or. And as I like to say, just because you have a tool doesn't mean you got rid of the spreadsheet. You're still going to use it for edge cases. There's still situations where it makes sense where you should use a spreadsheet. If I'm doing an M and A activity and I don't have all the data from the other company, I want to keep it very private. I don't want it in my mind. There's probably a lot of reasons to just do that all in a spreadsheet and keep it separate.

And if you think to yourself and you're telling people we're going to get rid of spreadsheets, you're setting yourself up for failure. Right. It's like, it's, it's like if people want to go to the gym every day or diet or whatever, and if they're going, I will do this every day. It means the one day they don't, oh, well, everything's falling apart the same. I've seen it where people go, we never want to see another spreadsheet in the business. That's not, that's too much. I mean, I like where you're coming from, but you're probably just making a problem for yourself by saying that you.

Had to mention diet is. I totally had a terrible dinner last night and it got on the scale this morning and I was just like, oh, man, I need to take better.

Care of care of myself.

So you had to choose that one, didn't you, Adam?

I actually am afraid I regret to inform that I also had an. But see, I call it an excellent dinner out with a friend over steak and sides and wine. So similarly.

Yeah, see, mine wasn't with a friend. I don't know that it was really an excellent dinner. It was just one of those I don't care moments that you have. I'm gonna eat this. This food, this junk food. But, hey, we all do it, and sometimes it is excellent. I totally agree with you.

Well, I. I like to justify it because I'm with my friend. I don't see him very often.

So I. I get it. We all. We all have our justifications. They're. They're. They're easy to. To come up with. All right, So I want to spend most of the rest of the time talking about data. Data is a challenge everybody faces. I think it's especially challenging in finance because often we're the center being asked questions about everything. You're bringing all that data together, and modelers, and everybody deals with that. So I know you specialize in helping people coming up with solutions to access all those various data sources with data blends. Why don't you talk about. Talk a little bit about what you do and then what interests you in data? Why are you doing that? What are you finding enjoyable about helping people access their data?

Well, I mean, in terms of what made me say yes to starting this role, the thing about integration is that it's a solved problem. We have had solutions to this problem for as long as it's been a problem. It's had to evolve a bit with cloud software, but it's always been possible. But it's a solved problem that countless times in my career selling FPNA software, I've seen people don't solve it. Yeah. And it's. It's always interesting. Why. Why is that? You know, we'd often, when we were coming at it from the FP&A software space, we'd often be trying to kick the can down the road on integration because we knew that accountants would be scared of it. You know, we didn't want it to complicate the process. But, you know, when the founder of Datablend said, hey, look, this is what we're doing with Datablend, we think there's a big white space of people who could use integration that are not. I'm like, brilliant, because, like I said, the problem's been solved, but it's been expensive. And the idea of Datablend is To do it in a more cost effective way, make it more accessible to a broader range of people. And I think I've seen it for myself. It is really awesome and genuinely quite uplifting for an accountant to realize that they don't have to download that spreadsheet, spend the hours doing it, check it, double check it, then re upload it. That is a material improvement in someone's life and that's a fairly, it's a fairly nice thing to be doing for a living. Look, I'm not saving the world of puppies, but it's a genuine impact in people's day to day.

Yeah, it's amazing. AI teach Power query, which obviously you can do a lot, you can pull a lot of data that way, a lot of other tools and when people see, they're like, you mean you could take my process where I'm doing all this copying and pasting and not only can I click one button and just stick it in a folder and it brings it all together, I can then make all these transformations and as well and it will continue to do them each month. Like one guy had to look on his face like I could kiss you right now because it's like how many hours you could save me if I learned that. Yeah, that can save you hours.

I've never quite come up with the right way of putting it because I call it Stockholm syndrome that people have with their data. It's completely the wrong term. But I'm like, they don't even think there's another way, right? They're just, so this is what we have to do. Oh well, I guess that's it. And then you say, oh well here's an option. And they go, no, no, I need to just do this. That's one of the barriers to what I spend my days doing. It's just like, look, because I think accountants, they want to be able to get their arms around things and they worry about the technical nature of stuff. So they'd often rather stick with an inefficient process. But it's their inefficient process, right? And they know every step of it in and out. And more importantly, they can earn it when, if anything goes wrong. So I get it.

Yeah, they're, they're comfortable with it, they own it. But let's dig into that a little bit more. Obviously one way people can access their data. There's a reason the most common button in software is export to Excel or export to a CSV, right? Pretty much every software has to have it at the end of the day, whether you're exporting it and then copying and pasting whether you're using software. Let's talk about some of the common ways people access data today. Beyond the export to Excel. What are some of the common tools and things we're seeing being used to help us get at all the data that's out there, you know, cloud and all these different data sources because feels like data just is growing exponentially every day.

Yeah, that's. That's a truth that we all accept at this point. There is no shortage of data. There is too much data. And you're right. Yeah, of course you can download the file through the interface, you can always do that. But even if you start with that, there's a lot of combinations and journeys to the endpoint. So once you've got a file, you could manipulate it in Excel and get it in the format. It needs to be where it's going. But even if you manually download it, there are tools where you can say, I'm going to drop it into secure FTP and I'll have a tool of some description, pick it up, do the transform and send it off. Or maybe I'm going to email it somewhere, I'm going to put it on SharePoint because I work with plenty of tools. It's surprising. Number of tools don't even have an API. Right? But they can. So we will still download a file, but it doesn't mean. Just because you've done one bit manually doesn't mean you have to do the rest manually. That's a big thing. I stress to people a lot. But to your point, what other ways can you do it? Well, APIs in the cloud, what I.

Tell our audience, just in case you have someone who's not familiar, what does API stand for? What is an API?

Just give that application programming interface. So back, you know, the way I explain it, there's still on premise databases in the world. I think most people know what a database is. We used to be able to plug into those. Right. That was in a cupboard in my office. Then it goes to cloud, we lose all that. So what an API says is right, here's a special web address that you can communicate with some software on your end, can talk to and pass commands and query the piece of software, say, hey, tell me what all my customers are, tell me what orders I've got today and get it back, get the response back. The trick with those compared to databases and I think it's made things worse from an integration standpoint because where we had databases on premise, which by the way there's still a stunning number of. I've been so surprised at how many people have either got old software or software that they've made, they've made up their bespoke system. So a ton of those. But it people would quite happily run, you know, connect to them, run SQL queries and scripts and do all that stuff. But now only the much larger firms will touch an API, right? Compared to the the sort of people that would plug into it.

Yeah, all the new firms. It's true in FP and A you see all these third gen tools and they're not going to on prem customers. They're trying to go all cloud because it's a lot easier to deal with a consistent across the board all APIs versus a big mix of things.

But the annoying thing about APIs compared to SQL databases is there's no consistency. Right. Normally a SQL database is SQL database no matter what flavor it is, give or take. And also unfortunately a surprising number of tools have poor APIs. No APIs or an increasing trend is absolutely, we have an API and your account manager will be in touch to send you the contract for API access, which is however many thousand a year. Right. So even where APIs exist, they may not be suitable. So people will often still do the manual download. But like I said, APIs, surprising number of on prem databases. And there are tools. Just because it's an on prem database doesn't mean you can't get into the cloud automatically. That's a common misconception. So while we're stuck, we have to. Nope, there's plenty of software that'll bridge that gap for you. And then another thing which has surprised me is how many pieces of software will do some sort of automation to get that file out for you, right? So they will drop it to SFTP somewhere for you Secure FTP. Right. Or we'll send you an email with the spreadsheet. And then whether you just download it from there or again, there are tools like integration platforms that can just receive that automatically from secure FTP or take it from an email. It doesn't feel quite as sexy and futuristic as a direct end to end connection, but for you, the user, it is, right? It's just as automated as if it was an API connection. If they can spit out a file to email, someone picks it up automatically, you're in, you're in a good place. Same as if it was proper.

Proper direct connection has the same impact whether it's. You don't see any of the transfer for comes into your inbox and goes out as long as you get the data where you need it and ends up with the same in the end and you're not having to do a bunch of manual stuff, does it really matter?

But my, my big thing is that I talk so much about to so many people is a hybrid approach. Like maybe you don't even download the file. Maybe you start with a file. So I have this a lot with when I work with accounting packages. Someone says, well, we have a third party payroll and they send me a spreadsheet each month and it says here's what Paul got paid, here's what Adam got paid, his taxes, insurance, blah blah blah in like a human readable format. But it needs to be in a journal entry, right. For the accounting system. Fine. Just because you've got a file doesn't mean you can't automate that. And if you're downloading, manipulating, re uploading, the download and the re upload are not what's taking you time. They're not what's causing you errors. They're not what you have to check. Right. It's the bit in the middle. And that can be very easily automated even if you have no control over the systems on either side. Which I think is important for say if you, if you're not permanently with an organization. Right.

FP and a guy here. And as you know, I am very passionate about financial modeling and the Financial Modeling Institute's mission. I have been a huge fan of the FMI for years and I was super excited when they decided to sponsor the Financial Modelers Corner. I recently completed the Advanced Financial Modeler Certified certification and love the entire experience. It was top notch from start to finish. I am a better modeler today for having completed the certification. I strongly believe every modeler needs to demonstrate they are a qualified financial modeler. And one of the best ways to do that is through the FMI's program. Earning the accreditation will demonstrate to your current and future future employers that you are serious about financial modeling. What are you waiting for? Visit www.fminstitute.com backslash podcast and use code podcast to save 15% when you enroll in an accreditation today. Yeah, there's definitely some truth to that. Right. Is you hear the term often ETL that transformation bas can be automated even if the extracting and loading is manual.

Exactly.

Which I've definitely. I've had many situations where I've seen that or people doing that and you try to automate that ed so we have a lot of people, especially today that are what we'll call freelance financial modelers, fractional CFOs working with a lot of different companies and they have different accounting packages. Sometimes it's QuickBooks, sometimes it's others and they really struggle getting to the data. It's often a challenge they want. Hey, we'd love to get it automatically pulled into Excel typically or Google Sheets because they're dealing with small companies that aren't at that point where hey, we want to go spend $20,000 or 50,000 or whatever the cost is to bring in a tool they're small enough that it's, they like the flexibility. Any advice there? Are there certain tools you find that you recommend or ways to kind of get at that data? For those that are dealing with a lot of different companies and they may have different systems, some may not have an API, some may have a poor API and that hasn't have half the fields they want or whatever, how should they think about that? Any recommendations for those out there that are kind of dealing with their own data hell, so to speak?

Well, I'll do my best, but I think in some ways you're probably better qualified to talk to this than I am. But look, obviously freelance can mean a lot of different things. That can be, you could be there for a week, you could be there for six months. If obviously if you're looking to build something more solid that's going to stick around after you're gone, then it probably doesn't hurt for you to have had some chance with integration. Platforms as a service people do typically think they're quite expensive, but you should take a look. Um, it, I, we also have like on our end we have some, some customers who are in sort of a consultant type role and they, they go around, they put it in, in assorted businesses, you know, we have a chant and we sort them out that way. But if you're not in that position, which obviously you're not all the time. I think my experience when I've looked into it is that you've got your, I don't know what the, the term for the category is. I always think of them as stepwise tools like Power Automate or Zapier or things that. I don't know if that's a, if I made that up. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I know you talk about stepwise integrate, whatever you want to call them.

I kind of like sort of block flow, whatever it is. They are all wildly different and you kind of need to Spend some time with them. So I guess if you have a particular challenge, then it's worth having a look because, look, if you do it. I do a lot of power platform stuff when I mess around and, and I recommend that. It's hard to not recommend that because being Microsoft, the Excel stuff is obviously great, Power, Query, Automate, all of that stuff. But I'm certainly not the Oracle. I certainly don't teach people how to use Power Query. So I'm not going to offer further advice there, but I think it's worth a look. And also more broadly, if you're using. And again, I don't know the term, but you're talking about the lower end. People are using Xero, they're using QuickBooks, they're using the low end Sages. Yeah. And Sage has got a lot of different products in that space. The good thing about those tools is because their base is so big, their marketplaces are insane. And if you haven't had a look, because there's a lot of free stuff on it, let's say you've got a client with Xero, they don't have any money. If you just go in the Xero marketplace and have a look at what you want, some sort of simple tool might be free, might cost you 20 bucks a month, but that's worthwhile if it's going to save you how many hours in your short engagement. Right. Whereas you don't get that when you get to the market tools, unfortunately, the price, the price goes up.

That's some really good advice. I like you mentioned power platform learning, Power Automate. That's something I haven't learned. I've done a lot of Power Query. I haven't done really any Power Automate. I've played with a little bit, but I've heard a lot of really good things and I know you can do quite a bit there. It's amazing what people are doing with Zapier and Make and some of these other tools. What's your thoughts about like learning SQL to get data out? I know for me I used that a lot early in my career. It was really helpful and then it kind of went to Power Query for me. But what's your thought of modelers having some basic SQL skills? You think that's still needed today or what's your take?

It's really hard, right? Because you know when I hear that question and I have like a gut reaction to it, but it just makes me feel alt because I'm like, of course you need SQL because all these SQL Actually, a lot of people aren't dealing with SQL databases all day long. Obviously I am professionally, but also I just, I was around when that was the only option. You and me both.

You're not alone on this, Adam.

You know, I was, you know, hacking into. Hacking's too strong. But messing around with SQL databases for point of sale systems, blah, blah, blah. Having said that, I mean, I sort of love to know someone who's a lot younger than me what their feeling is. Yeah, based on it. But my feeling is I don't think I've ever used a data tool. You know, they've flows, fancy interface, drag and drop. Doesn't matter. I don't think I've seen one where you never ever needed to drop into SQL. You might get away with it for a long time or maybe your whole career, but no matter how good the interface, normally SQL's involved underneath and normally so often I've seen it more than I can count. There's some weird thing that you could do in SQL that the user interface thing doesn't quite understand and it's a useful thing to do. Now I can't write SQL freehand. I can write select star from but that's about it. And very basic stuff. I wouldn't try and do a join by hand, but I can read most of the stuff. Obviously SQL is a ridiculously long library, but to read basic selects where clauses, groups, filters, basic types of joins. I don't think you need a huge investment in time to get a basic course and then I'm sure it'll be useful. But as I say, I would be very prepared for someone younger than me to go, shut up, old man. This is the future. We don't need any of that.

The fact that you're talking about us being old because of SQL makes me feel old. Thanks a lot, Adam. Way to start my morning.

You're welcome.

Yeah, I, I'm with you. I still think learning the basics is beneficial. There's an. There's still plenty out there of companies that have SQL databases. Not by no means are is SQL dead in my mind. Maybe I'm off the boat like I said, maybe somebody in their twenties you starting their careers like what are you talking about? There's no need. But I think the basics, being able to get around it, maybe writing a little bit of code, it's not like you need to invest a ton of time in it. But I'm, I'm, I'm with you. I believe the general person should do it. It was very helpful. I Learned it. I did report writing for a couple years before I moved into fp. It was incredibly helpful for me to be able to pull data. My boss loved it because I still had access to the database and he called me up like, can you pull me this? Sure, I'll just go pull it for you. You know, I didn't have to go to it. They left me with the access and I just go get him the data he wanted and it made a huge difference for us. So I've, I've been a big fan but I know what you're talking about, it's becoming less needed is with different tools in different ways.

Yeah, I guess I think the trick is because you know, you did that. Like I remember, you know, I had in my first job laying hands on computers a lot. Right. I was writing crystal reports, if people know that. Right. So the SQL queries in there and then, and then I say, I mentioned this job with the hardware chain and they, they had a Unix based point of sale system and then they released the Windows version which was put in a couple of trial sites and it was pretty bad. Like it didn't do most a lot of the things it needed to do. So I was missing, I was writing all these little, little applications to like go into the database and print labels or you know, signs or pay it an invoice and all sorts of weird things. So I guess because I had to do that on the regular, that's imprinted SQL on my brain. And so that's why I hesitate a bit. Like if you're someone who's never going to spend that amount of time with it. I don't know, I don't know how hard it is to pick it up.

I tend to think like I've seen a spreadsheet called Equals, fairly new one. They do SQL in the background, access a lot of different data sources. They allow you to Dr. Drag and Drop. No code for most of it. But there's going to be a time you need a little bit of that or if you're using Power Query, you're using M, which is very similar to SQL. So I, from what I see, I still think it's needed but I totally get the hesitation and it'll be interesting to watch. You know, maybe at some point we have this conversation again in 10 years and we'll have someone young on and they'll be like, what is SQL? What are you talking. Time will tell.

But I think it's, but particularly freelance, right? Because that's, that's, I think the key as well, if you are moving around the more that you can be self reliant for this sort of stuff because you will hit a need for it.

Yes.

You know, at some point.

Exactly. We have, you know, a lot of people, they're doing that, that fractional type work and I think at some point there's going to be some company where it's going to be helpful or a number of companies more than likely. So you wrote a book. Let's, let's move into that. You wrote a book called the Business User's Guide to Data Integration. So I'm going to ask a couple questions first, why'd you write it? That's not a typical book you see out there. What was the kind of impetus behind writing that book?

I thought you were going to say, could I have made a longer title?

No, I decided not to go there.

I know, because I spent. I mean an age is a bit too strong, but I really did want to have a shorter title because it's not snappy. The Best is a Guide to Data integration. But I found that if I took any words out it would make it sound like a technical resource. And the point is that it's not, it's not meant to. So. All right. So, yeah, it's not the coolest, sexiest sounding book. Why did I, why did I write? Well, it was because I was doing this job. You know, I have an odd background. Like I had FB and A before that, you know, I was doing all this nerdy stuff, so I had a fairly good knowledge about databases and that sort of stuff. But then I start doing this job at Datablend and I'm talking to these people every day. Questions. Like you were saying, right, what's an API? Why is it a problem that the database is on premise? And well, if I want to bring things across my CRM, surely it just does the customers automatically. All these basic concepts, nothing to do with Datablend. Just. Look, a lot of people just don't know and they're scared of it. And I get it. Listen, we said this before. You know, accountants want to wrap their arms around what they're doing and feel in control. And so often integration seems this big, scary technical thing. They don't know where to start. And when you don't know where to start, you don't. They keep plugging away at the terrible time consuming process that is there. Terrible time consuming process. So the whole point of it is like, look, I think there was, I thought there was a gap to say this is Not a book that will teach you to be an integration person. It won't teach you a SQL, it won't teach you how to build to an API. That's not what it's about, it's just to say it doesn't have to be scary. Right. Here are the ways you can connect to systems, the pros and cons, the terms you need to know, the questions you need to ask and what some of the answers you might get might mean. Right. So. And then some ammunition for your business case. And when I, I didn't initially plan to write a book, I was like, there must be something I can point people to online. So I went looking and it was either there were a lot of 5 minute read blog posts, typically from integration.

Platforms, which is typically from the vendors.

I'm going to guess marketing fluff. And incredibly their solution was the most simple way to do everything, or you can go and buy like, you know, Dave Seymour's 50,000 page guide to data mesh, like, which is obviously too much. It didn't, I couldn't find a simple resource that I wanted to point people at. And the book, it's not very long because it doesn't have to be. I don't know about you, I've read a lot of business type books which should have been about a third the length or maybe even just a blog post, but they feel they need to pad it out by having stories of saying the same thing 50 times. We're all busy.

Sometimes you're like, I could just summarize this book in one sentence and save you the time.

Yeah. So it's not a long book, it's as long as it needs to be in my opinion, just to help people feel that they can go and talk about it and have a look.

Great. And so what, what is the focus? Obviously it's integration, but is it get. What is the user? Let's say I read the book tomorrow. What are you hoping they come away with? What are you hoping it accomplishes for the average business user when they read the book?

Well, if I give you a before and after. All right, so what I want is somebody sitting there as a business user, so an accountant who is doing something time consuming, typically with whatever and they would like to not be, but they don't know what to do short of ringing up like a big four consultancy and they're well, no, I can't do that. But I don't even know who to call or what to look for. I just. So I'm just going to keep going because it's really hard, I think, for accountants, particularly when they're the ones doing. They got the monthly cycle all the time. It's relentless. It's very hard to step away. So I think it's so much easier to keep doing what you're doing. So what I want to say is, no, you can read this book and then afterwards, you know the sort of things that you could be doing. You might have an idea of the sort of way you might want to do it, but you kind of can be ready to start making some calls and start talking to some people without worrying they're going to run rings around you or sell you something you don't need or things like that.

Got it. Perfect. So what we'll do is we'll definitely put a link to that in the show notes. So people who want to access that, the book and appreciate you sharing about that, just talking a little bit about data and accessing it. Because I know it's a real challenge that everybody faces, not just finance, but especially the fractional SQL APIs. A lot of times people just, their eyes glaze over and it's like, all right, just give me the export button and I'll figure it out. And I think the message at least I want to leave with people is there are options beyond that. If that's what you're always doing, pick up the book, read it, listen to this episode. You know, start to find some simple ways to make your life easier because nobody should be doing a hundred percent exporting a bunch of changes and then, you know, importing to wherever it needs to go. There. There are solutions. I think that that's the message I want people to realize is it shouldn't be a fully manual process. Doesn't mean you may not be able to automate all of it. Doesn't mean it'll all of a sudden be simple, just press a button. But there are things you could do. Is that a fair Kind of, yeah.

And it's because you probably won't automate everything. And it might be, particularly if you're fractional, you might not be able to automate a lot of it because of the thing, but you will at least know why you're not automating something. Like why what the lift would be to do X, Y and Z. So that when the client says, hey, why are we doing this? You say, well, here are your options, right? You could, you could do. You could pay a little bit extra up front. It would reduce my hours on this. Or I can do the hours and then you look super knowledgeable.

100 agree. You could. You could have the conversation even if you're not able to do what they want. All right, so we're going to move into a rapid fire section is what we call this. And I. I spared you a few of the normal questions because I know your day job isn't modeling, so you don't get the VBA and the circular reference and a few of those questions.

I figured it's like a VBA question. No. Okay.

All right, maybe I'll throw you the one vba.

Just. I really shouldn't have said that.

Okay, Karen, how this works is you kind of have to pick a side or a quick answer. Some of these quick answer. And then at the end, if you want to elaborate on one of the answers you gave, you're welcome to do that.

So I just. I just answer straight off the bat.

And just like, yeah, just answer straight off the bat. You can't give me an. It depends. You kind of pick a side. You know, I need a quick answer. And then at the end, if there's something you're passionate about, where you're like, oh, really? It does depend on. I'll let you elaborate on one of them because I get it. It's hard for some people on this. And I will throw in one for vba. So in building financial models, you think we should be using vba, yes or no?

Yes.

Okay. Do you have a favorite tool you like to use to access different data.

Sources without cheating and saying, I've got unlimited data blend. Right. But when I'm not doing that, I actually use a lot of if this, then that for my own little side projects.

Okay, perfect. If you could only use one spreadsheet for the rest of your life, you go in with Excel or Google Sheets.

One for yourself by saying that you.

Had to mention diet, as I totally had a terrible dinner last night and it got on the scale this morning and I was just like, man, I need to take better care of myself. You had to choose that one, didn't you, Adam?

I actually am afraid I regret to inform that I also had an. But see, I call it an excellent dinner out with a friend over steak and sides and wine. So similarly.

Yeah, see, mine wasn't with a friend. I don't know that it was really an excellent dinner. It was just one of those Excel, I'm afraid. I figured that's what you'd say. Will Excel ever die?

I always think anytime anyone asks a question about will something die? The answer is normally no. And I. Forever's a long time, but no, it's too much. Too much built up.

Do you think AI will build the models for us in the future?

I think they will, but I think that the people peddling AI are suggesting a much nearer future than I have in my mind. Again, forever is a long time, but in the future, but not enough, not close enough for us to change anything.

Fair enough. I don't care. Moments that you have. I'm going to eat this food, this junk food. But hey, we all do it and sometimes it is excellent. I totally agree with you.

Well, I like to justify it because I'm with my friend. I don't see him very often, so I get it.

We all have our justification. They're easy to come up with. All right, so I want to spend most of the rest of the time talking about data. Data is a challenge. Everybody. What's your view on she sell protection and models? Do you think we should be using it or no?

You should, but you shouldn't rely on it.

I think that's well said. I'm going to throw one other in here that I didn't have on the list, but I think you'll have an opinion on external workbook links in your spreadsheets. Yes or no?

No.

I figured that's out. What you would face is I think it's especially challenging in finance because often we're the center being asked questions about everything. You're bringing all that data together and modelers and everybody deals with that. So I know you specialize in helping people coming up with solutions to access all those various data sources with data blends. Why don't you talk about, talk a little bit about what you do and then what interests say. All right. Do you believe financial models are the number one corpus chew in data? Why are you doing that? What are you finding enjoyable about helping people access their data? Data corporate decision making tool.

Maybe the wrong audience says to, but no, what is. I think it's part of an important toolbox like my example, right? Mature, commoditized, tactical decision. Run a model, see the thing. But if you're making a big strategic change in the business, you cannot make that decision based off a financial model. Right. It is one thing you do, but there's a whole pile of other things that you've got. Well, I mean, in terms of what made me say yes to starting this role, the thing about integration is that it's a sole look at.

Sure. Fair enough. My favorite answer I got from somebody.

Was no, it's politics problem we have had solutions to this problem for as long as it's been a problem. It's had to evolve a bit with cloud software but it's always been possible but it's a solved problem that countless times in my career selling I can't.

Argue with you on that one. I'll give it to you. All right. So working Excel do you have a favorite lookup function? This is an often people like should you use Vlookup index match xlookup choose do you have one you like to use?

So Vlookup wins for me by default because it's the only one I know how to drive and actually some of the ones you've mentioned to me I I've just learned FP&A software I've seen people don't solve it and it's always interesting why is that? When we were coming at it from the FP&A software space we'd often be trying to kick the can down the road on integration because we knew that accountants would be scared of it. We didn't want it to complicate the program about so this is how you can tell I'm not doing the day to day like you guys are fair.

Enough and that's why I figured I.

Know yours but you know when the founder of Datablend said hey look this is what we're doing with Datablend we think there's a big white space of people who could use integration that are not I'm like brilliant because not in.

A day to day both audience has strong opinions on that. All right, so that finishes up the rapid fire. Anything you want to add? Is there anything you wanted to elaborate a little bit on there or feel.

Good with your amp Tina just that Excel vs Google Sheets question it's really I don't know what your experience is. It's been interesting. So when I working FP&A tools they mostly support like I said the problem's been solved but it's been expensive and the idea of Datablend is to do it in a more cost effective way make it more accessible to a broader range of people and I think I've seen it for myself like it is really awesome and genuinely Excel for reporting right so like adaptive has a office connect for quite uplifting for an accountant to realize that they don't have to download that spreadsheet spend the hours doing it, check it, double check it then re upload it that is a material and that sort of thing but then we always had problems in California because all the tech companies were going G docs and all this sort of stuff. But I don't know. But I also, when I answered the question to you, I was like, this is again, is this an old man shaking his fist at the cloud question? Because I've used every. I dip into Google. I use Google sheets plenty. But improvement in someone's life and that's a fairly. It's a fairly nice thing to be doing for a living. Look, I'm not saving the world of puppies, but it's a genuine impact in people's day to day.

Yeah, it's amazing. I teach power query, which obviously you can do a lot. You can pull a lot of data.

Only if it looks like really basic recording of numbers, not actually modeling. Because every time I've tried to do.

Anything that way, a lot of other tools and when people see they're like, you mean you could take my process where I'm doing all this copying and pasting and not only can I click one button and just stick it in a folder and it brings serious.

I've hit a wall pretty quick and it's just like, well, I have Excel already, so why would I bother? Why do I want to use G Sheets? I don't know if you've had any good compelling answers why people should be using.

Yeah, speaking that really interesting. And it will come out in a couple weeks because I spoke with David Benim out of Cambodia, I believe is where he's located all together. I can then make all these transformations and as well and it will continue to do them each month. Like one guy had the look on his face like I think I could kiss you right now. Because it's like how many hours you could save me if I learned that. Yeah, I think it can save you hours.

I've never, I've never quite come up with the right way of putting it because I call it Stockholm syndrome that people have with their data. It's completely the wrong term. But I'm like, they don't.

He's an Excel MVP and he uses Excel a lot. But he's also.

They don't even think there's another way. Right. They're just. So this is what we have to do.

Oh well, the equivalent with Google. And he's very much a big believer that there are times you should be using Google Sheets over Excel. He says their import range feature is better. They're better with some of their data entry stuff. He goes, if you're dealing with large data sets, you need to be in Excel. He goes, he stays in Excel because he loves Power Query and the way it's able to help him get into the data. But he's like, there's a lot of things where Google Sheets better.

I was just talking, I guess that's it. And then you say, oh well, here's an option. And they go, no, no, I need to just do this. That's one of the barriers to what I spend my days doing. It's just like, look. Because I think accountants, they want to be able to get their arms around things and they worry about the technical nature of stuff, so they'd often rather stick with an inefficient process.

Talking to a friend, he just joined a new company, one of those tech companies, and they forced him into Google Sheets and at first he's like, I don't.

But it's their inefficient process, right? And they know every step of it in and out and more importantly, they can earn it when like this.

And he's done a few things now and he's like, actually, I really like some of their things. There are some things they do better. And, and so the gap has closed. They're, they're much closer today than they.

Were before if anything goes wrong. So I get it.

Yeah, they're, they're comfortable with it, they own it. But let's dig into that a little bit more. Obviously, one way people can access their data. There's a. But there's still, I would say the vast majority, I mean, it's clear, 90, 90% plus are still Excel. But Google Sheets has closed the gap. They're better in collaboration. Reason the most common button in software is export to Excel or export to a CSV. Right. Pretty much every software has to have it at the end of the day, whether you're exporting it and then copying and pasting, whether you're using software, they're better in some other areas and they have almost every feature Excel does. So it's interesting to watch. But yes, it's not just an old man thing. It's still. Excel is clearly still the 800 pound gorilla when it comes to a spreadsheet, but Google has made quite a bit of inroads. And I'll talk about some of the common ways people access data today. Beyond the export to Excel, what are some of the common tools and things we're seeing being used to help us get at all the data? Also, Excel's made quite a bit of inroads on where Google's better. They're copying each other's formulas. So that gap of the difference between them keeps narrowing because they each see if they see something popular from the other. And it's mostly bits out there, you know, cloud and all these different data sources because feels like data just is growing exponentially every day.

Yeah, that's, that's a, a truth we all accept at this point. There is no shortage of data. There's too much data. And you're right, you know, there's. Yeah, of course you can down in.

The last few years Excel bringing what Google Sheets has because most of functions that were in Google Sheets that were not in Excel were better functions and Excel needed them.

Yeah, but I mean it's really easy. I mean I wouldn't want to try and go into competition with Excel. I mean, fortunately, there's no danger of me releasing a spreadsheet. Load the file through the interface. You can always do that. But even if you start with that, there's a lot of combinations and journeys to the endpoint. So once you've got a file, what a barrier to entry. Like literally what other category in technology has literal decades of accumulated development? It's like actually nothing.

Yeah. And I know we need.

You could manipulate it in Excel and get it in the format it needs to be where it's going. But even if you manually download it, there are tools where you can say I'm going to drop it into secure FTP and I'll have a tool of some description, pick it up, do the transform and send it off. Or maybe I'm going to email it somewhere, I'm going to put it on SharePoint.

Need to wrap up. Our audience is probably okay. They're just geeking out at the moment. But I got to spend one more minute here and then we'll close. Right. Excel, you got, you got 40 years of history. You got an ecosystem that is second to almost.

And because I work with plenty of tools, it's surprising number of tools don't even have an API.

Not anything else in the world. The number of trainers, the number of data out there to learn it.

Right. But they can. So we will still download a file. But it doesn't mean. Just because you've done one bit manually doesn't mean you have to do the rest manually. That's. And that's a big thing. I stress to it to people a lot. But to your point, what other ways can you do it? Well, APIs in the.

What I tell our audience, the familiarity. I mean, brave souls. There's some great new startups that are trying to build modern collaborative spreadsheets and they've done some really good things. But let's just in case you have someone who is not familiar, what does API stand for? What is an API? Just give that their hearts. That's, that's just such a hard road. You're. You're fighting a huge gorilla. If your goal is to unseat Excel. I think most of them get smart enough just like the software vendors did. You don't hear very often anymore we're going to kill Excel. It's like we're going to give a use case where we want to come in.

Are our spreadsheets better for application programming interface? So back, you know, the way I explain it, you know there's still on premise databases in the world. I think most people know what a database is. Yeah, we used to just be able to plug into those. Right. That was in a cupboard in my office. Then it goes to cloud, we lose all that. So what an API said this, we're.

Going after this target market that's much easier to do. But if your goal is to unseat Excel and you think you're going to do it from the beginning, you better have a huge war chest and good luck.

All you need is a bigger war chest than Microsoft. It's easy. Yeah, I mean, I guess is right. Here's a special web address that you can communicate with some software on your end can talk to and pass commands and query the piece of software. You know, say, hey, I guess if.

You'Re Apple and you want to blow your 50 billion in cash, sure, go for it.

Why not?

You know what I mean? But it's a hard road. So I think that's a fun note to end on. Why not?

We'll end on, hey, tell me what all my customers are. Tell me what orders I've got today and get it back. Get the response back. The trick with those compared to databases and I think it's made things worse from an integration standpoint because where we had databases on premise, which by the.

Way, Excel won't die anytime soon. And if your goal is to unseat Excel, good luck. What that has to do with financial modeling will let you decide. But our last question here, if the audience would like to learn a little bit more about.

There's still a stunning number of. I've been so surprised at how many people have either got old software or software that they've made. They've made up their bespoke system. So a ton of those.

You, you know, maybe get familiar with the work you're doing. What's the best way to get in touch with you?

Probably easiest to find me on LinkedIn. There's only. There's two Adam Rakiches on LinkedIn. One of them does it out of Texas. I'm the other one.

So the Atom, that's not intense. That's right.

The Atom is more error than it but it people would quite happily run, you know, connect to them, run SQL queries and scripts and do all that stuff. But now only the much larger firms will touch an API, right? Compared to the sort of people that would plug into it.

Yeah, all the new firms. It's true. In FPA you see all these third gen tools and they're not going to at the top. Love it. Well, on that note, we'll go ahead and wrap up, but thank you for joining me. I appreciate you talking a little bit about data, sharing your background and also having some fun discussing spreadsheets. So on prem customers they're trying to go all cloud because it's a lot easier to deal with a consistent across the board all APIs versus a big mix of things.

But the annoying thing about APIs compared to SQL databases is.

Thanks for being on the show, Adam, and hope you have a great day.

And you too, Paul. Thank you.

Financial Modeler's Corner was brought to you by the Financial Modeling Institute.

This year I completed there's no consistency. Right. Normally a SQL database is SQL database no matter what flavor it is, give.

Or take the advanced Financial Modeler certification. And it made me a better financial modeler.

Yeah, but. And also unfortunately a surprising number of tools have poor APIs. No APIs or an increasing.

What are you waiting for? Visit fmi@www.fminstitute.com podcast and use code.

Podcast trend is absolutely we have an API. And your account manager will be in touch to send you the contract for API access, which is however many thousand you get. Right. So even where APIs exist, they asked.

To save 15% when you enroll in one of the accreditations today.

It may not be suitable. So people will often still do the manual download. But like I said, APIs surprising number of on prem databases and there are tools. Just because it's an on prem database doesn't mean you can't get into the cloud automatically. That's a common misconception. So. Well, we're stuck. We have to. No, there's plenty of software that'll bridge that gap for you. And then another thing which has surprised me is how many pieces of software.