The Hidden Health Crisis Destroying High Performing Founders

There's a stat that nobody in corporate America wants to talk about. 44% of Gen Z workers admit to actively sabotaging their company's AI rollout. This behavior is part of a bigger, intense resistance to AI integration in the workplace, largely driven by FOBO, or fear of becoming obsolete. In addition to that stat, on the founder side, 72% of founders report mental health challenges. Founders are twice as likely to suffer from depression, suicidal thoughts, struggle with substance abuse than the general population. Today's guest knows both these worlds, the AI world because that's where she lives and breathes, and also the founder world because she stepped away from corporate, spending a decade as a data executive at GE, Kraft Heinz, and PayPal, where she built the systems that measured employee well-being for tens of thousands of people. At Kraft, she launched the company's first global health survey in its 100-year history, and she built a real-time executive dashboard tracking tens of thousands of employees' mental and physical health during COVID in 24 hours. In 2023, she walked away from all of it. She left her exec role that was cushy and she's become a solo founder that travels the world and she's been a keynote speaker who's hit 30 cities across 3 continents, a LinkedIn Learning instructor with tens of thousands of students, and NAMI volunteer who wrote one of the most honest pieces I've ever read about suicide and mental health and leadership. So Serena, welcome to the pod. How is your health and happiness lately? Before we get into some of the topics around AI, change management, strategy, FOBO, and founder health?

Thank you so much for having me. Okay, I'm a numbers person, so I'll give you a numbers response. Health, health, I am at 7. I recently got some good news from surgeons I visited. So yeah, yeah, and working on solution to get to 10. And happiness, I would say 8.5.

Yeah, 8.5. Nice. Those are solid, solid C- and B. Like, I think that's, that's like, that's, that's good.

How about yourself? What were your numbers?

Oh, I, you know, speaking of health, I just, um, you know, we can, we can go if you want, want to go deeper into health. I, I'm happy to hear more about, I'm like, the surgeon thing, uh, before we go to me actually. What, what's up with that?

If you, I don't know if you want to share, but Yeah, no, so I've been struggling with back pain for, gosh, almost a year now. And I'm not sure if it was an injury or something else. And basically at one point, the doctors I saw would say, there's nothing else you can do or try all the non-invasive things and you're probably looking at back surgery. And they're like, you're too young to do this, but it looks like if you're still in pain, that's the only way. And I'm just like, okay, first of all, that's a long recovery time. And there's a lot of things that could go wrong with back surgery. And, you know, like, you know how it is. Once you start to, once you start to focus on the area and suddenly people come out of everywhere telling you their horror stories with back surgeries. So I was pretty determined to not do that. So I went to Taiwan, visited my grandma, and at the same time saw a bunch of different doctors, including two ortho surgeons. And they both said, and again, these are like people, my family actually know, so I know they wouldn't be lying to me. So I did a new MRI and they're like, no, we would not operate on you. It's not at that level. I think you should do X, Y, and Z and let's try new things that you haven't tried in the US. So I feel so relieved to hear that news because I was like, oh my gosh, I don't know, one, how can I take up 2, 3 months just laying there recovering from back surgery? And then two, what if something goes wrong? What would I do? And it's just like, it's just scary, right? And then you keep hearing about things of like, you are too young to have this. And you're thinking, okay, but I am here and I'm in pain. So the data says otherwise. And it also got me thinking, you know, have I been pushing so hard that I have somehow accelerated this process? And what could I do differently to Maybe treat my, you know, treat my back better. And part of that got me thinking about, you know, traveling differently as well and spending more time in, yeah, places that bring me joy and make me healthy. So I'm, you know, figuring all that out, but overall a trip and happy to share the, yeah, the good news from surgeons.

That's tough. How do you manage? Because we're on the health train. Let's just keep on the health train actually, because this is, this is big. Then we'll go to the AI stuff. So how do you manage solo founder life and juggling? Because I know navigating the healthcare system sucks.

Oh, it sucks.

Being in pain sucks. Being injured sucks. So how do you like juggle all the thousand balls there? Like, and then try to make progress. I'm sure that's like a heavy mental load. Yeah.

It is. I think the mental load is much more difficult than the logistics of like scheduling things and calling different doctors. And yes, I, you know, I tried to get AI to help me with some of this, but the mental load is going to be there because when you are in pain, for anyone who has experienced pain, it is exhausting. It is the only thing you can think about and your brain tells you you are in danger and the only thing you want to do is get out of pain. So whether that is sleeping in a certain position, moving your body around unconsciously, or trying, you know, one more new medicine, and it's constantly there. So I sort of carve out time on my calendar of like basically focus on my health time. And that could be calling doctors, getting refills, running to Walgreens for the 7th time in a week. Or something else that is more mental and emotional. Like, you know, maybe I found journaling helpful, for example. Like, I write about the pain, and I recently went to a writing workshop and journaled about it and felt relieved being able to get things on paper. So it's like all those things, and I make sure they are actually on my calendar so I have time for it.

Yeah.

That's one. And then two, this part is really hard, being kinder to yourself. That compassion I have for other people, I have to remind myself to have for my own body and my own mind. Like, if your body is already screaming, then don't push it anymore. So, and that's easier said than done. And I also, the third thing, we talked briefly about this, travel. So kind of carving out different days for different things. So there are certain days I don't take calls, certain days I focus on content, and then on days that I travel. Yeah.

On that. Yes. On, wait, so what, name a week for you because I think people don't really understand how much you travel. So what's like a week, like day by day, and then how do you lock this down tactically? I know you're about to talk about, you know, your boundaries around travel schedule, but I think that might be a good way to frame it.

Oh my gosh. Okay. So like, first of all, every week is obviously different. So I don't think there's a typical week, but on average, I am probably on the road like 50+% of the time. So, so if it's, you know, a whole week I'm gone, or maybe next week I'm home, or, you know, within the two-week window, I might have two shorter trips where I'm away 2 to 3 days each week. So that means, right, like Sunday, I am preparing for the trip. I'm making content. I'm doing laundry. I'm picking out the outfits I want to wear on stage. Stage that goes with switch shoes and so on. So there's like a lot of, gosh, I'll say speakerpreneur, maybe entrepreneur. There's a lot of, especially as a woman, there's certain math that goes into the outfit picking. So, so.

Wait, wait, tell me more about that because I obviously, I don't think I understand that. I'm sure other, I'm sure other founder women would would love to hear about this actually, because I don't hear about this. So tell me more about that.

Like, there are certain audiences that are the same, right? So I think about, have these people seen me before on a stage in the past year, 2 years? And not necessarily the same event, because I don't go back to the same event a ton, but then I picture, right, okay, so these are a woman in data group in Chicago, or this is a, you know, C-level exec in Boston, um, and maybe this is a fintech crowd in San Francisco. So I think about the chance of me running into the same people. And then, uh, so I have for some reason really excellent memory for what I wear and different, you know, different things I go to. Yeah, yeah. So I'm like, okay, I wore the blue blazer with white pants and white sneakers last time in San Francisco, so I'm not gonna do that. And and then I will pick out something else. Um, so yeah, and like, you don't have to do this, but yeah, but I choose to because, um, I, yeah, I, I also take pride in, um, in my like fashion sense, showing up, like dressing up, and, and it's fun for me. So, um, cool. Yeah, so that's part of it.

Thanks for sharing. That's okay. So, so 50/50 traveling It could be one week out, one weekend, and then you like juggle content day on Sundays. You're telling me about that. Uh, tell me about like your other tactical, you know, sort of things around, um, protecting your health, but also running the business.

Yeah. Um, so I figured out that I am, I'm not a super early morning person like you.

So no 3 AM, 4 AM wakeups for me, but, but I am, I'm just a weirdo. I'm just a weirdo. I think I'm, like just weird like that.

I don't think it's like, yeah, I think you drink a different blend of coffee that you need to send my way.

It's complicated.

Um, yeah, so I figure I'm more productive in the morning, so I try to have, um, you know, things that take strategy type thinking, or maybe podcast interviews, for example, I would do in the morning. Or if I'm interviewing someone like, um, and, or a strategic call with C-suite leaders or prospects that I'm talking to. I try to use that time in the morning to do those things. And then, you know, sort of afternoon, I would focus on more execution slash operational type work that a founder does. And that includes anything from like chasing down invoices to, gosh, emailing all the people back from the morning and And so reaching out to potential collaborators, what have you. So something that is not going to consume 100% of my brainpower. I do it in times where I feel like I am maybe not at 100%. And that works for me. But I also keep track of it, right? Like I think at the— this is something that probably helps me the most is at the end of the week, like on a Friday, I will flack back. I'll look at the calendar and note what worked well, what didn't work well, so that I can adjust accordingly. Like, you know, maybe I have a super draining call and I'm like, is that the people that drain me? Is it I wasn't prepared? Is it just because it was stormy outside? My dog was barking, so that was stressful. Who knows? But whatever it is, then you can adjust. And I A lot of us forget to do that. So we just keep operating using the same playbook from 3 years ago, but we change and you don't pay attention to that. You're gonna, yeah, you lose out on opportunities and time and energy.

Totally. Yeah. Okay. So that's a lot to juggle, which is you're dealing with Pac Bain, you travel for work a lot and you're doing all these keynote events where you're the, you know, center stage with C-suite people or women in data and stuff like that. That's a lot to juggle and then still make progress. So I know we talked about measurement and you're obviously a data person and you got into the Whoop. I think we talked about that and you got into the Whoop game. How's your Whoop game been? Just checking in on that.

Good. So yeah, it tells me how Sleeping. I think that's the most insightful thing in, in like recovery, how it impacts recovery, which isn't something I pay enough attention to. Yeah. I think it's part of the, I don't know, maybe it's immigrant entrepreneurs who can relate to this, but you just keep pushing and, and you're like, hey, you're screaming at me. So I'm just going to push it even harder. I can drink more coffee or whatnot and push through it. And I think the recovery insights really helped me. So something that I started tracking, and again, like back in the day when I had just, you know, regular Apple Watch and other devices in the past, I would try to run correlation analysis on my own to see.

That's cool. That's so cool.

Yeah. Like, is it the travel that impacted my recovery? Is it the lack of sleep? Is it different time zones? Is it, you know, the food that I'm eating and drinking? Which part of the equation is it? Time of my exercise? And so on. But now I don't have to. So, something I've been paying attention to is certainly the travel. And then also like food and how much— how late do I stay up, right? Like, yeah. So unfortunately, yeah, unfortunately it's part of what we do, right? Like you have to socialize and network to grow the business. And that means doing that outside of your normal time zone and your body might be like ready to go to bed, but hey, it's only 8 PM local time. So we keep going for another while. And then I'm able to have conversation with the Huub AI and say, hey, you know, how I would ask questions like, how's my recovery? And then I will give it context, right? The context is I am out of my normal time zone, like, you know, plus or minus 12 hours. Okay, that's a big shift. Or is it only a couple hours? That's not so bad. And then it's like, it continued to remind me that, hey, just because you're only an hour or two outside of your normal home time zone doesn't mean it's not hard for you. And, uh, and you know, sometimes I choose to listen, usually I do, and sometimes I'm like, ah, nope, I, I gotta keep going. So yeah, yeah, but then now I know I pay for it the next day or the next, and then how long it takes for me to go back to normal. Um, and then I use those insights to adjust my travel schedule, like something I totally required is to not have back-to-back, um, international trips. So I, yeah, if I just got back from Asia, like, I, I could, but I'm not gonna jump on another plane to go to London the next week.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Your body is gonna be all messed up. And just totally, and doesn't mean I should.

Yeah, got it. Wow. Okay. Yeah. And I find that having just the data makes you realize what you're paying, you know, and it makes, and that is the thing when it's, uh, where's that? I think it was the Drucker quote. It was what gets measured gets managed. I totally see that with health as well. And so you talked about, um, travel. Okay. You mentioned a tactical tip before. I think we started the pod and I think you were getting there. What's your tactical tip around managing travel? I think you just come up with it, right?

Um, yeah, because you, man, you have to do so many things as a founder.

Um, so many things, so many things, everything, everything.

Yes, everything. So CEO, CFO, C-whatever-o-plus, janitor, executive assistant. Yeah, totally right. And, and so something I noticed is that it really stressed me out when I have to be on, on calls and meetings on days of travel because like, you know, let's say I, I get up early in the morning and I make it to my destination by noon. And technically my afternoon is free. I'm preparing a keynote for the next day. In the afternoon, I can wander around, or I can take some calls. I'll be productive. But sure enough, at some point, your flight is delayed. The weather, the plane, who knows? And then you're still on the runway, and your Zoom is about to start with a new client. You're like, oh my God, what am I going to do? So once I had that bad experience, I made a promise to myself that on days I'm on the plane, I'm not going to take calls. And that means with the number of days I'm on the road, that means I have a lot of days I cannot take calls if I'm working.

Okay.

Promise to myself. So that means the other days are squeezed and full of calls, but to me, it's worth it because I never want to be that person again where I'm so stressed. I'm like, I remember this scene where I'm like jumping into Uber and immediately getting on the Zoom, trying to put on the proper background, and I'm telling my Uber driver to be quiet because I'm on a very important call. And then like, you know, the Wi-Fi, right, the internet will cut in and out, and you're like, okay, this is not ideal. So, but it's too late to reschedule because once you find out your flight is delayed, you're already, you know, what, 3 hours before the call. So then you're making decision of am I going to cancel the call and that might seem rude, I might lose the customer, or do I just risk it and try to get myself to be as presentable as possible even though I've been up since 3 o'clock trying to catch this flight and I'm in the Uber that smells terrible, but I'm gonna look presentable and I'm gonna have this conversation about AI. Great. And it just isn't worth it to me. Like, um, that like that, that stress and unnecessary also stress for my, uh, you know, prospects and clients waiting for me to show up on a Zoom. And, um, I, it's just, uh, it doesn't seem like the good solution. So anyways, that's, that's where I am.

Um, so protecting your travel days, uh, and dedicating solely towards travel because there's a lot of cognitive overhead.

Yeah.

You know, there are a lot of uncontrollable variables that might affect the call schedule. Yo, I, I think I just got more white hairs hearing that story. Like, that was, that sounds so stressful because I could totally imagine like, oh crap, flight. Because already traveling to me is, is stress. It could be fun, but when things get delayed and things happen and your routines— I'm a routine guy, so when my routines get thrown off, I don't I can't get the right food or I can't get the right exercise or I'm on my ass all day or whatever. It just feels weird and my energy's thrown off, you know. Right. Speaking of like energy, how's that helped you with your mental health? Like setting that boundary?

It helps tremendously. I think one, the anxiety is down from not having to anticipate like today my goal, my big goal today is to get to my destination in one piece. Safely, my body, and then get ready for next day, right? Then that means that leaves me time to either explore a new city, which helps my mental health, or I can get to the gym and be relaxed there, or gosh, some days I even like to sit by the pool. It's crazy, right? Great. And then Aaron, instead of being anxious in the Uber trying to get on the Zoom. So totally, totally. So I think it helps a lot. And then I still don't love this word. I used to really hate it. The word is slow down. And we hear this all the time. Like people always tell me, you got to slow down. And I absolutely dread hearing it because to me, and clearly I have more work to do, but clear, like to me, that is equated to either lack of ambition or even laziness. From my upbringing.

And so, so I think about like, okay, wait, say more, say more about that, the upbringing part for people that don't know you.

Yeah. So I think because I'm like, I'm a one and a half generation immigrant to the US. I got here when I was 13. I didn't speak English, had to, it was rough and like in puberty too. Gosh, like a really hard time. Um, but, but there's just so much of like, um, I need to show that I've made it, or I— it just takes a lot more. So I think that's always ingrained in me somehow. Um, and it takes hard work, right? Like, so growing up, I hear things like, you know, just, just work hard. And you hear about the American dream as well. There's a, there's spot for everybody, but you just, you gotta be willing to put in the work. So, so I think I've thought about hard work as like the minimum requirement to stay in the game, not even like a nice to have, like on some days it's, it's like the default. And, and, and yeah, so everything below the working hard is, is not, I don't know, it's like Yeah, it makes you, makes you feel bad about yourself.

You have an inner critic that's really loud. Totally. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like, what are you doing? Lazing around? Like what? Like, that's what I have. I have the same. It takes a lot of, um, we spoke about therapy where before we hopped on and I know you're a huge therapy advocate. I'd love to hear more about how you approach that, but yeah, it's taken me, it's taken me a lot of work to calm that down. And I find that when I'm stressed, it's really loud. Like when my health and happiness are not good, it is louder, my, uh, my inner critic. Yeah.

Yeah. What, what do you do to calm it down?

Um, so what I've worked on is first is just awareness, and then, then after that, after awareness, then you can apply tactics. So, um, tactics will be different for everybody, and I've gone through different things Uh, journaling is great. Everybody talks about that. We talked about that. Uh, the expressive writing protocol is a really good one that's scientifically backed by over 200 peer-reviewed studies on, on that. Like, I've, I've done a lot of that around when I as a child felt that I needed to work hard and bust ass to have external validation or love. Yeah. Like, um, and so I think undoing a lot of that being in the matrix essentially, or that training of, hey, I have to do this and then I'll get love. Like, so a lot of expressive writing towards those experiences. Meditation helps a lot. I think another one that helps is— this is a simple one, I'll break it up into two, but one that my friend gave me was, would you talk to your best friend this way? And that is a really good one to snap out of it. 'Cause it's like, no, I would never, like the, my inner critic is so, so harsh and I would never subject anybody to, yeah. Uh, the other one that gets me, 'cause I'm a dog parent, you're a dog parent too, is like, what would Kenji, my dog's name, what would Kenji think right now? And you know, I'm really hard on myself. Yeah. So I'll be like, oh, I'm a bad CEO. Oh, I'm not like, you know, I'm not doing this, I'm not enough there. And then I'll be like, well, if Kenji were talking to me, he'd just be like, you're doing great, Dad. Keep going. You're awesome, Dad. I love you, Dad. Like, so, so it sounds silly, but the goal really, I've learned, uh, working with my therapist, is first awareness in those moments, and then regulation through some tactics, right? Find the tactics that work for you that you could like easily do. Um, another thing is prevention. So How do I prevent myself from getting into that situation in the first place where I'm likely to be so stressed that I'm my own worst enemy? Yeah. And, uh, for that, I feel like honestly it's a simple shit, but it's like sleep on time regularly. Yes, that's a huge one. Like, yeah, it's a huge one. I saw this thing by Bryan Johnson, um, who, who he like He had this meme and it was this giant water tank and there was this like thing bursting out and it was just like duct tape slap. And the thing, the thing was, you know, all the stressors, all the problems in founder life or entrepreneurship and the duct tape was 8 hours of sleep. It's actually though, when I get 8 hours of sleep, it's like, yeah, nothing, nothing's that bad. You know, like we're going to live, we're going to be okay. Um, so those are some of my tactics. I mean, breathing is a big one. I, I read this book, Breath by James Nestor. Uh, really good. But the TL;DR, if people don't want to read it or even AI it, uh, it's just breathe 5.5 seconds in through the nose, breathe 5.5 seconds out through the nose. Do that a few times, you will feel better. Yeah. So, uh, those are some of my tactics, but I'm, I'm curious about your tactics. Like, how do you catch yourself in those moments where you're like your own worst enemy or your own harsh critic, you know.

Oh, I, I like the dog one that you mentioned. Isn't it good? Yes.

Isn't that good?

Yes. Yeah, your dog doesn't care.

Dog doesn't give a shit. Like, hustling?

No, you know, one more flight, can you get one more meeting in today? No, your dog doesn't care, right?

No, it's like, Mom, just cuddle me, I love you, you know, play with me.

That's it, that's all. Yeah, and I think I would extend that further to thinking about to the people that really matter to me in my life. What would they want from me? And chances are they don't want you working harder. They don't want you pushing yourself to beyond the limit, and they just want to spend more quality time with you and see you happy and healthy. So I think that lens is helpful. So the other thing, I do meditation as well. I do it like first thing in the morning. Great. And yeah, and something I've been practicing since I was 8. So I am, I would not call myself an expert. Like I still get distracted and some days are harder than others, but I almost use it as a signal of like, hey, if I'm able to just really sit down and calm my thoughts and and I feel good after meditation, then, you know, like, it's a data point for my body. As opposed to some days I'm like, oh my God, there's 20 plates spinning and I can't stop those thoughts even when I'm just trying to meditate for 30 minutes, really, really just sit here and I can't. Then I might start the day of, all right, now we really need to be mindful. And today I'm gonna, you know, practice mindfulness from my toolkit. And how do I stay present, and I can stay present by doing X, Y, and Z. Or I write down the, the one big goal for the day, because if you're having 20 plates spinning, um, you can't focus. And yeah, one of the best things that I think founders can do is to focus on something for sure and stay present. And it's easier said than done. So I just like, I write it down, like, what would make, what would make today a great day? And a great day is not possible what would make today a good day? And it could be like, you know, have a great podcast interview with you, right? That could be it. And then maybe 2 or 3 more, right? Like take my dog off from a walk, call my doctors back, make that appointment, whatever. And then after you do that, you check it off. You're like, okay, then I'll promise today is a great day because I did this. Um, and then you cut yourself some slack and not worry about the other 19 things that you have to do. Um, something else I do is a not-to-do list. So people have to-do lists and I've been using a not-to-do list for a long time. That's how I survived as an executive in Fortune 500. It's like, yes. Things to do. But yeah, but then what are the things that you won't do? And it could be things like not taking a call on travel days. It could be, it could be not jumping on a call before 8 AM, right? It could be not taking your morning walk before eating protein. It could be something simple. It could be in your house. It could be in your work. It could be in your life. And, um, but I think, you know, once you create that list, because you know what doesn't work for you, you know what drains your energy, then you can focus on the other things, um, by following those not-to-do lists. Got it.

Yeah, I love that, the not-to-do list. Not to do: be hard on myself. Um, I wanted to go a little bit deeper on, uh, your advocacy for mental health. So you volunteered with NAMI, and you've had teammates in the past go through mental health crises, and you've been through your own. Um, with all that experience, what are things you wish every founder knew about mental health that they're currently getting wrong, maybe? Uh, and, and I think you could speak from years of experiences now going from corporate tech exec in Fortune 500 to now founder life. So what do you wish you knew at the beginning? Maybe that's a better way to frame it.

At the beginning, gosh, I wish I knew therapy was the best investment anyone could make in themselves. Like beyond upskilling yourself on AI, beyond— I would go as far as an Ivy League MBA. I think it is way better. Because it's, um, without therapy, I was getting in my own way. I don't know if you feel that way, but like, tell me more about that. Yeah. So, so like the thing where, um, you know, where I felt for a long time, like, um, I must be productive all the time and to be productive all the time. Uh, and therefore I sort of almost tie it to my value and my worth. Yeah. If I'm not being productive, then that means— what does that mean? That means I cannot rest. Yeah. Rest is expensive. And that means I don't— I almost feel like I have to work really hard to earn rest. And it simply is not true, right? So I felt like I was getting in my own way of being healthy because I had all these weird rules that I didn't know I was operating on. It's like a weird autopilot. And I think therapy made us realize where it came from. Um, and then I think to— you mentioned the self-awareness is step one, and then like the toolkit to, to then do something different. I think there's a middle step I would add, which is your willingness to change, that you think it matters enough to you that you don't want the same outcomes as before. And I think that's the moment where self-awareness can then turn into something more than, okay, I recognize that's my pattern, but that's it. And I still am stuck in the same loop even though I have the tools because I'm somehow not willing to change. And change is hard because that means you have to let go of something that has worked for you for many years or that you have been doing forever. And And most people are, even if they just become aware, doesn't automatically jump to, okay, now I'm going to change everything I've done, everything I've known about myself, and then just put that aside and then go live a different life. If it's only that easy. Yeah.

I wish, I wish I could snap fingers and then I've changed my habits. It's hard. It's really hard. Especially the, Immigrant family sort of upbringing, right? Yes.

Yeah. And, and like, I, I don't know, like, it's, it's funny. I say, I don't know, but I've actually done a lot of research on this topic. It's what I wrote my dissertation on is immigration.

So you do know.

No, I do know, but I guess I, I'm like, I don't know why I always operate this way. It's like, I don't know where exactly it came from. Um, because it wasn't like my, you know, it wasn't like my parents had to sacrifice everything and then move to another country. In fact, my parents decided that they didn't want to live here anymore and they went back to Taiwan. Um, and then I ended up staying with American family and, um, and that, that worked out really well for me. I'm still really close to my American mom. Um, and yeah, and, and like, I think but there's a lot of like, I left what I know behind in a different country. And that's sort of like making it is the only option. And it's not that I cannot go live in a different country, right? I can. I speak different languages. Technically I can. But at least for a certain period of time, especially when I first got here, like the first 10 years, I was like, ah, this is it. This is my new life, my new path. I need to make this work. I need to get into a I need to go to grad school here. I need to get scholarship. I need to get, you know, whatever, set up for success. And that felt like the only option. And because I've always been told like you work hard and then you'll get rewarded, which by the way is not true. Not true at all. Especially in corporate, that's not the only thing it takes. But it's just so ingrained that I ended up pushing really hard. And I think there's also like, what do we label a success? Whether it's the immigrant and us or the immigrant family that, you know, like, I remember going to dinner parties and it's, you know, the Asian dinner parties. I don't know if you can relate, but it's like, people will say, oh, my son just got into law school, right? Like, oh my God. For sure. right? My kid just became a doctor, right? And like, you know, this other kid is like Olympics medalist and whatever, like super impressive, incredible things. Or like this other kid had two patents already at age 12. I mean, and you just feel like you are not enough. You just feel like you are not going to ever measure up. And but then, you know, as I got older, it's like measure up to What? Yeah. What are my measures? What are my own values? And how do I think, what do I think is successful for me? And like, I think finally as an adult years later, I realized I get to decide what enough looks like. And because if it's someone else's metric, someone else's measurement, you will never measure up. And that's even before bringing social media. So that's just like people we actually know. So like, there's no end to comparison, and it's not just a thief of joy, it's so many more. It's like, it's not good for your mental health, and you have to define what good enough looks like, what enough looks like, and And then I realized like, no, actually I am enough. And I tell people this all the time, regardless of what I do, even if I don't make another dollar as an entrepreneur, even if I don't land another client for some reason, I am still enough and I've made an impact and that's okay. And yeah, and it's like— That's really beautiful. Yeah, 5 years ago I would not have said that at all.

That's huge progress. High five. Heck yeah.

High five. Yes. Yeah. That's huge.

That is huge progress in 5 years. Yeah. The Asian dinner party plus one. So fucking hard. Like the Asian dinner parties where your parents basically try to one-up each other with other Asian parents. And that is, that is their, am I enough because I have a child that reflects my worth of being enough, right? And the whole comparison is a thief of joy thing. I think comparison for those Asian dinner parties is like, you're not just stealing your own joy, you're stealing generations of joy, right? And then it takes work to undo it. It was wild. Like, I remember, I remember my mom and dad would be like, they'd always be like, you know, I always say this, but it's like, okay, you got an A minus. Where's your A? All right. You got the A. Where's the A+? All right. Got the A+. Well, your, you know, cousin twice removed is going to fucking Stanford. And you're like, well, I'm 11. I'm 12. Like, you know, like it's like, oh, and so you just always are like, it's never enough. And, um, and then also the kids at the dinner party, they don't give a shit. Like, I don't, I never, I never felt like, oh, you're like, you know, we just wanted to play Pokémon or whatever. Like, that's it. Like, it's like, dude, dude, is your, you know, is your Charmander cool? Like, that's it. Like, it's, you know, it's not, it was never about that. But those things psychologically. Stay ingrained in you, and then it spills into every other aspect of your life. That's what I realized for me. Uh, so yeah, the Asian dinner parties thing is such a throwback. That's like social media before social media for Asian people. Oh my gosh, that way. Absolutely. But you like dread it because it's like, I know what's gonna happen here. I'm just gonna feel bad about myself here, and then I'll go play Pokémon with the kids, which will be fun, but that's the price I have to pay to just play Pokémon is feel Yeah, and this is where I credit therapy as well, because I recently just spent some time with my parents in Taiwan, and then I was able to see things from a different perspective for the first time.

Like, I think about, well, the reason that you responded this way to me is because of your own childhood experience and how you grew up, things that you didn't resolve because, well, um, I don't know about you, but like my, that generation, they were not going to therapy. Yeah. And it's like, no, it's not just for people with problems, Dad. And, you know, I would say those things, but nonetheless, it's made me realize like, hey, I can separate now what part of it is coming from their own past that isn't being resolved. And that's not on me. And that's such a relief. Founders or not, anyone, you're just getting started. It does take a while to build trust with your therapist. So give it at least 5 sessions. Before you say, nope, this is not for me.

I love the advice to found— not just founders, but literally every human on planet. Please go to therapy if you can afford it. It's such a— it's definitely a privilege to go. And if you have the privilege to go, definitely do it. You will, uh, become a better person is my experience. And another thing I'll throw out tactically there is a lot of friends of mine have asked me, especially male friends like your dad, who'll be like, yeah, it's for other people. I'm good, you know, like definitely I don't got problems, but other people that do, I support it, right? And I find that a lot of men will be like that. And I certainly used to be like that when— because my dad was like that and I learned from my dad. And luckily I changed my mind in my early 20s and started going. And, um, and it comes from that middle part, which is the desire to change because you see the pain of the habits of the past and you want to go to the future of what's better. Even the process of finding the right therapist is kind of like dating. It's like finding the right match is hard. So some people will just give up because they're like, they look at that insurance list and they're like, well, who's available? They call 3 of them, none of them are available. They get rejection, kind of like dating, right? And then it's like, well, shit, all right, I'mma give up, right? So to those people that have tried and the system makes it difficult, there are other resources like BetterHelp, is good at matchmaking. There are lots of services online nowadays where you don't even have to go in person. And if you have some money and you don't want to go through insurance, there's options like that too that are more convenient, I feel like, from a friction perspective. Yeah. Um, and then give it a few try— like, if your first therapist you don't vibe with, like, try a different one, right? And find one where you feel safe, where you feel like you could just be you and be real, um, and that's key. And like Serena says, like, give it a few times, uh, before— because then the first couple are really just understanding the intake. Well, what is the state of your life? Who, who were you? And then it gets into more tactic, especially if you're a founder. I'll say, like, going to therapy makes me more, more productive. Like, if you need an economically, you know, valuable reason to go, I will say it keeps me more productive and sustainable longer. Not just making you a better person. So if the better person argument doesn't convince you, like, I, I, I'm pretty convinced I'm more productive, uh, when I— because I go to therapy, because it manages your mental health. Um, another thing on this kind of rant I'm going on, because I, I feel very strongly about this, and I think everybody should go. I think the world would be a better place if everybody went to therapy or just gained more empathy. Yes, which is part of it— empathy for yourself and empathy for others. Like, you and your parents, right? Like, you empathize with they had trauma, they had past issues that were unresolved, and they brought that into their relationship with you and raising you. And then that's led to hopefully you breaking the cycle, right? Same thing for me is, is what I sort of realized. And what I'll say is everybody knows what it feels like when you haven't hit the gym in a while. You like go up this flight of stairs and you're like, oh shit, I'm huffing and puffing that way. Oh fuck, I gotta go to the gym. Everyone knows that feeling. The mental health gym is a little different. That's the feeling there is, uh, I don't really want to get out of bed today, or, oh, I snooze my alarm a couple times more. That's when I find that, oh, I've been like skipping the mental health gym, is when things that I normally want to do— and I'm normally a very optimistic, excited guy— yeah, I, uh, will not be so much. And so I've had to look out for those signs too. It's easier with the flight of stairs that are real and physical It's harder with the flight of stairs that are mental and not physical, where everything just feels a little bit more difficult. And in founder life—

Do you mind sharing a little bit more, like, how do you know you haven't been to the mental gym?

What does that— Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I like rock climbing. I like running. I like hanging out with friends. And I'm a really social person. I'm extroverted, but in founder life, if you want to succeed, you're alone for most of the time, right? Like grinding and shit, right? Like you're grinding, you have your team, that's fine. But like, you're not going to lots of dinner parties and stuff unless your function is like sales or networking. But even that is like a different kind of ballgame than just let me go have unstructured fun time with friends that is unstructured for no reason. Right. So. It's a lonely journey to find success in entrepreneurship, I found. And I'm really extroverted, so I get a lot of energy around being with other people. And something that I do, my mind will be like, oh, well, like, today wasn't that great. You're probably not going to get a great workout if you go to the gym right now. So maybe you like sleep, get better sleep, and then tomorrow morning you hit it hard at the gym. But that, or, or, hey, like, I know you said yes to this social function, that your friends invited you to and you were excited about it, but there's all this accounting you gotta do or chasing invoices and other bullshit you gotta do for the business that's hanging over your head. So maybe you should figure that out instead. And the thought of the usual fun things like that I would find fun or energy giving just become a drag to even think about going. And I almost convinced myself to not go, that it won't be great, that I might, that like, like I won't have fun or, or, you know, and, and I'll be like, oh yeah, tomorrow it'll be better. And then tomorrow becomes the next day and the next day and the next day. And I find myself— I'm not perfect, uh, I try to stay on it, but I'm not perfect. Um, but I find that that's when you're missing the mental health gym. And defining the mental health gym as like, um, well, therapy is one. Like, are you going regularly? For me, I, I oscillate between, depending on levels of stress, no, either monthly, biweekly, weekly. Like, I'll change it up depending. And then there's, am I doing my journaling? Am I doing my gratitude practice? Am I reflecting on the day with some positivity and optimism? Those small things sound small, but literally, like, when I forget to do them and it stacks, I then start kind of avoiding the things that I know make me me and usually give me a lot of energy. And, uh, and yeah, so I, I find that for me, one of my habits that is bad is One of my habits that are bad is, um, is that thing where I get so stressed with the business. Yeah. That my mind tricks me into thinking that other things aren't fun. And, uh, and then I have to get out of it and be like, I, I've had this experience where I'm like, oh, I don't really want to go. And then I go anyway, and then I have the best fucking time. And I'm like, oh, I needed this. Like, this is so great. Why did, why did I even think that this would be bad? That's what I mean by when you stop hitting the mental health gym, you feel like you're dragging ass to the thing that makes you, you, or makes it fun for you to live life, right? Yeah. I don't know if that's relatable, but, uh, that's certainly something I've felt and experienced very much.

Very much. Um, and I like the, your own data gathering process, right? You are noticing things and it's part of it. Like we, we sometimes go on days and we don't notice what's happening with us, but you notice little things like, hey, I used to be excited about this and I'm not anymore. What's going on? I think that's a really big sign. And you don't have to go all the way to, you know, clinical depression to feel lack of joy from day to day. But paying attention to that, that's huge.

Yeah. Yeah. Leading indicators, right? You don't want to be there and then you like need Xanax, right? You want to, you want to, you want to be proactive about, hey, I'm missing a couple days of the gym and I love the gym and I'm somehow not wanting to go, like, that's a weird thing. Okay, I should go, you know. Oh, another thing, another thing that helps me, and this is a little, uh, nerdy, I guess, or a little weird. I don't know, maybe I don't qualify it, maybe that's my inner critic, but I have— I've figured out that when I haven't gone to the mental health gym in a while, One of the best things that picks me up, because I'm such a social extroverted person, is I'll just text some friends, like male friends, and be like, hey dude, I'm feeling pretty shitty about myself, to be honest. Can you give me like some words of affirmations? Like, I'm really feeling a low sense of self-worth right now, and I'm, you know, like, it's because I'm going through all this stress. And it sounds like 15 years ago, Robert would be like, dude, don't do that. That's putting yourself out there too much. Nobody's gonna love you. You know, like But I have— I, I had this breakthrough years ago where I realized words of affirmations are such a high love language for me. I give them to myself, but sometimes, at least for me, I don't believe it. And yeah, sometimes it's nice to have somebody else shine a light on you when it's dark for you. So I'll just text some of my guy friends that I've grown a good emotional connection with, and I know they're kind of with it, and I'll be like, hey dude, I'm feeling kind of down about myself, can you some words of affirmations, and they do. And I immediately, boom, plus 1,000 happiness points. And I'm like, okay, back on the train. All right, I want to go climbing. Okay, great, I feel good. And, and I, and I think that's, that's where everybody's got to find what's good for them. But that's like a key tactic for me is what are your love languages? And ideally you give them to yourself, like take yourself out on the date. That I've done that. And, or do things for yourself, um, or if you, if you can't then like ask somebody else to help you out. Somebody that loves you, one of your close friends. And it sounds— it, you know, before in the past I would have thought that was lame, but now I realize, oh, instead of just wallowing in squalor and like self-pity and stuff, this is an actionable thing I could do to regulate and lean on my people. So that's been a healthy thing for me, is just ask for help in very small ways, right? Like super small ways. Yeah.

Gosh, I, I'm curious, what's your favorite affirmation?

Oh, um, I, I always joke that I'm just a working dog. And so honestly, it's just, I just want to be patted on the head, be told I'm a good boy. I tried hard. That's it. It sounds, it sounds really lame, but that's really like, I don't really need much else. I, I bet a lot of men, actually men that are listening to this, drop it in the comments if you could relate to this, is like, we don't— I don't, I don't feel like I need much from other people, but if somebody like tells me I did a good job, you tried really hard, oh my gosh, that's like infinity. Like, especially if when, when I've been dating— right now I'm single, uh, but when I've been dating, when I've been dating and my partner— I don't really need that much, but when my partner says, just acknowledges my effort Oh my God, it like is like injection into my veins of like optimism. It just feels really good. Uh, and obviously you can infer what my Asian parents were like growing up because, uh, yeah, there was, there was like none of that growing up. My hard work was never validated growing up. Uh, so, so that, that really hits hard. And so I, I try to like give that to myself, but A lot of times I do find it nice to hear from people that I love in particular. Strangers I don't care too much about, but, um, but people that I actually admire and respect and, yeah, you know, they know me. So what about for you? Do you have any like that? Like, what are your love languages and stuff?

Yeah, well, first of all, like, huge kudos to you for reaching out for help and having actually a network of men who are willing to engage and who tell you that you are great and the affirmation. So I think that's huge, especially for men. And yes, to the loneliness. I appreciate that. I don't talk about it, but as a founder, you spend a lot of time alone. Like, alone as fuck. Most of the time, right? And yes, I might be surrounded by people, you know, 500,000 at the event, but I am You know, mostly I'm like prepping for getting on stage. I'm a little open. And then we don't talk enough about the social health, the social interaction, connections being important for our mental health. So we really need to find a way to do that. Yeah, so I think for me, my love languages are— I feel like it rotates. So, so for a really—

that's cool, then all by yourself.

For a long time, it's been gifts. And, and the reason, uh, through therapy, I found out that my— so I'm an only child. Um, my parents were really big on not creating a spoiled only child growing up. And, um, and then as a result, they like basically purposely didn't celebrate my birthday. So there were like no gifts, there's no cakes, there's no parties. It was just like another day as a way to, I don't know, you know, educate me. So I didn't get my first birthday party until I was 18. So, and like all of that made me feel like, oh, gifts must be really rare and I need to do something really special to earn gifts. And And then so like for a while I would buy myself gifts and I still do. I take myself on dates like solo dinner dates and things like that. So, and then the other piece is like quality time. I think for me because our, you know, likely schedules are really packed. So when I'm able to spend quality time with people that I care about, that's really important to me and that fills my cup. Um, so yeah, so I think that's, um, yeah, it's helpful to know about yourself. And also, perhaps more importantly, in a— like, oh, this was not a planned topic, but I think in partnership and romantic relationships, you have to know what the other person's love language is. And like, we tend to give from what we like to receive because it's easier, because it's more natural. And, you know, maybe for me, I still like to buy people gifts, and it's like a way that I show care, but maybe that person doesn't really appreciate it, or it's like, I would rather you and I have a cup of coffee together. And it takes communication, it takes the willingness to be wrong sometimes, or to to like be told that, hey, what you've been doing is really great, but it doesn't help me that much, or I would feel more loved if X, Y, and Z. And that, that kind of conversation takes courage. It really does. And I was, yeah, I wish I was, I think if I had gone to therapy sooner, I would have learned like communicate differently and asking those tough questions that the you know, couples check-in, whatnot, uh, on a regular basis. So you know what's working and, and what— where you might put your efforts differently.

Totally. Yeah, that's so true. And I'm, uh, yeah, I'm glad you're able to share that and not also figure that out about yourself. And it's so true about partnership, is the reciprocity in, yeah, um, knowing somebody and wanting to be known. At the end of the day, right? Like, and you don't get that with mind— there's no mind reading. You have to talk about it, and talking about it means expressing your feelings and your needs, and that is from a place of vulnerability, especially if in the past your vulnerability growing up was not met with grace, right? So, so yeah, that, that's definitely important.

Yeah, and, uh, uh, maybe a side tangent, something that I'm noticing in the AI usage data is people are now turning to AI for that. A lot of people are trying to learn.

Companionship and coaching and therapy.

Yeah, it totally is. And instead of maybe asking, hey, what did you think about X, Y, and Z, right? About our relationship, they will go to AI and ask, what did Robert mean when he said X, right? Why is he not texting me back? You know, and it's like, no, just have the conversation, have the courage and curiosity to talk and then be open-minded about what the other person might say. And, and, uh, and yeah, save your thumbs up for other things.

That's a, that, yeah, that's such a real thing. And I don't know, I think, I mean, modern dating is a whole thing. That's a whole, you could have a whole podcast on that. I think there are podcasts on this actually, but the whole like, um, Yeah, this is maybe getting a bit personal, but like I've been starting to be more open to dating and, uh, yeah, the whole like, I don't know, I've talked to other friends, male friends, female friends, and the whole like, I don't know, people just be playing games about shit. And I'm just like, bro, I'm just going to like be straight up. I'm not, I'll text you back right when I, if I, sometimes I'm like a great texter. Other times my hair's on fire and I'm a bad texter. And so I'm just straight up with people about that. But I I do know people that are like with AI trying to figure like, what did this mean? And it's just like, you could just go to the source and they'll tell you what it means. Okay. This was awesome to hear about health, founder health, mental health, and hear about your journey and also share a bit about my own. I really appreciate you sharing and being vulnerable in this space. And I bet, uh, as I've seen with a lot of your content, it's inspired other people, including myself, um, to just try to do better. And to also affirm that, oh cool, like somebody I really expect and respect and admire is going this way. I'm going the right way. Cool.