How To Start Your Own Successful Podcast (feat. Calum Johnson)

My job is not to like make my weaknesses so much into strengths, but really to identify like, what am I naturally good at? And then how do I elevate that through the content?

Hey everybody. Welcome to the Building Public Podcast. I'm your host KP. And on this show, I interview world-class entrepreneurs, ambitious startup founders, creators, and builders on the internet who are boldly building the future in public. This podcast is my excuse to take you all on a few journey to understand, learn, and hopefully be inspired by the worldviews, insights, and stories of these fabulous people changing the world. So far, I've gotten the rare privilege to sit down with incredible guests like Gary Vee, Alexis Ohanian, Kat Cole, Sahil Lavingia, and many more leaders. So check out the full podcast listing at buildingpublicpodcast.com. Now buckle up and get ready for our latest episode. In today's episode, you'll meet Callum Johnson. Callum is the founder and host of The Callum Johnson Show, which is a top 5% pod that got 1.5 million views on social in 60 days. He also runs a podcast agency called CG Podcast Pro that helps companies and entrepreneurs build a unique digital brand through the power of podcasting. Callum was originally born, born and raised in London and now lives in New York. Previously, he worked as a marketing manager at Public.com. My interview with Callum was super fun as we got to go deep into the trenches of podcasting as a craft. We geeked out about our techniques of how to ask great questions, how to make guests feel at ease, and how to develop your unique edge as a podcaster, and so on. As you can already tell, this episode was close to my heart and is filled with non-obvious insights and stories about podcasting. With that said, I bring you Callum. Enjoy. Hello everybody, welcome to the Build in Public podcast. I'm your host KP, and today I am super thrilled to bring you Callum Johnson. Callum joining us from New York, I assume, right? Right now?

I'm in Jersey right now, but New York, I wish I was in New York. So maybe I'll go to New York.

Right. Callum, welcome to the show.

Thank you, man. It's weird having someone else do the intro. I know, right?

Dude, I, uh, a lot of research on you. Your dossier, you know, Callum Johnson dossier is here. Watch out. I may, I may dig out some of your old stuff from like 2008 or something, you know? But no, super excited to chop it up with you. As I was saying before, um, we got this on, I feel like getting to chat with a podcaster, especially like you, someone who's obsessed about the craft, who loves the craft, is such a joy. And you and I, we go, I don't know, 4 or 5, I mean, like 45, 50 minutes every time we get a chance on the phone and geek out about this. And so it's really a pleasure to be able to do this on air, record this shit, and then like other people, let other people also get a sense of what our conversations are like, right?

Yeah.

Okay, so welcome. I want, I want you to, in your own words, give a quick intro about yourself and what is something that's super top of mind for you lately.

Yeah, of course. So, uh, I'm Callum, host of the Callum Johnson Show. Welcome to the Callum Johnson Show. Today I'm joined by— Um, if I was really going to break down what the podcast is about, I think we just, we have conversations with entrepreneurs, with people that took very unconventional career paths and won. And the reason why I think that was really important to me is going to university, being in school around a bunch of like competitive kids. Um, I think we get funneled into these quite narrow career paths and there's this belief. It's like, even if this isn't for me, I need to follow this. Like, this is the path that has been prescribed to me. And being online and the leverage that the internet provides, there's really so much opportunity out there. And I think I was just having so many conversations with people that were doing special things at a super early age. They were working a lot, but it was in stuff that they were passionate about that made sense for them, and they were building these big businesses off it. And so I love the way of speaking with these people. So I thought, let's share that. Let's share that with the world. And it's just interesting, and we can get into it deeper. It's just interesting, some of the patterns, both in the ways of thinking, in the mindset, in the habits that these people have. And I, I think it's the cool thing is that I'm really on a journey with the audience.

Yeah.

So as I'm building this podcast and as I'm building my business, They're learning with me.

Yeah.

And so yeah, that's the Callum Johnson Show. We've had guests like Sahil Bloom, Zach Pogrob, Jack Butcher, Joe Holder, a bunch of great people. And then when you say top of mind, that's a good question because I think the thing that's really top of mind for me is my podcast production company.

Yeah. Tell me more. Tell us more about that. Yeah.

CJ Podcast Pro. And essentially what we do is when I started my podcast, I started doing only remote interviews and using Riverside like what we're using now. And it is really such a great tool to meet people and to talk with people that aren't in your locale. But recently, about 6 months ago, we moved to doing everything in person and it was such a transformative experience both for me and the podcast and the audience and the marketing. And the production. And so I just decided I want to, I want to roll that out and offer it to more people. And so today we build, we just build world-class podcasts for great entrepreneurs and great companies so that they can kind of leverage the power of podcasting. And that's a fully done-for-you offer. So we'll handle the strategy, we'll handle the production, we'll handle getting guests. post-production, marketing, distribution, all of that good stuff. So that's pretty much it.

Love it. Love it. And I'm smiling because I, deep in my heart, and I think you know this, that if I wasn't doing all the things that I'm doing with the Building Public Fellowship and other things that I'm super busy with, I think I would have done something like that. Because it's the highest leverage move you can do if you're a young person, or if you wanted to get started with being a founder, but you don't have a product idea yet, you know, like starting with a service business allows you to get to cash flow quickly. And also with, in your scenario where you're kind of doing, um, you're kind of dealing with a target audience or target clients that are all successful people. So it's great to kind of be in that company of people and like, like see behind the scenes of how they operate, you know, what makes them tick. and all that stuff. So really excited for that journey. Huge shout out, huge cosign on Callum's work. If I could afford him, I would pick him myself. Just kidding. But I'm serious. Like, I think at some point, Callum, I would love to collaborate with you and figure out a synergy, you know, like some kind of synergy. I think it's gonna happen at some point. Hmm. It's just a matter of, you know, how and when. So let's start with, The question of being on YouTube, right? One thing I noticed when I was doing research on you was I was stunned. You have 208 videos on YouTube. Hmm. Dude, that's crazy. That's a lot of work. And it's not just, you know, 1-minute, 2-minute clips, or you talking to us, you know, your phone and like recording it, you know, in your basement. It's actually well-produced. You know, well done, 208 videos. Tell me about sort of what it means to you to create kind of that kind of volume of work, you know, without massive ROI. Because people, by the time they get to 20, 30 videos, they're expecting 10,000 subscribers, 40,000 subscribers. And you took, what, 208 videos, and you've been doing this for a while, and, you know, you're not MrBeast yet. So How do you sit with that? What's your mindset that makes you, you know, build on that longevity game, like that volume of work game?

Yeah, no, I appreciate you calling that out because that's something that people don't really pay attention to, right? It's just the, just the pure volume, not even the results, just the volume. How much did you put in? And you know what's interesting? I even said it when I was doing the intro. I said, when you speak with I've had over 50 podcasts at this point with successful entrepreneurs, people that have made 8 figures, 9 figures. And I spoke about there's certain things that you just see in common, and all of them, it's the consistency of the work. That's where it starts. And to be honest, that's where their focus is.

Yes.

It's in being consistent and it's in putting out volume. And it's interesting because sometimes I get impatient. Like, I am super impatient and I want the results right now. And I was actually listening to an interview with Alex Hormozi.

Yeah.

And he was saying that a lot of the time, the reason why people haven't gotten the results they want, it's purely volume. It's only volume. Um, they haven't put in enough reps for a long enough amount of time. And I think because of the way that the world is, and it's kind of, you know, we're in like this TikTok era Everything is like now, now, now, like give it to me right now, is that when people don't get results, they tap out or they go to the next thing. And every time you start something new, it's like, um, the law of compounding and leverage, it has to start over again.

Yeah.

So you're delaying the process. And so for me, it was like, I love doing this thing. Podcasting for me is something that I would do for free. without any results because I just love it. And so my focus just moved to like, let's just, let's just be consistent, like obscenely consistent. Um, and let's just put volume out there. Yeah. And then once you have volume, I always say this, I think one of the problems I've seen, uh, with my peers, and I made this mistake myself, is that when it came to doing like business ideas or like trying to start something I would— I'm like an overthinker, so I would overthink, I would over-theorize. I'd be trying to come up with the perfect idea, and I'd want to ask people all these questions to like perfectly validate my idea. And now for me, it's just about let's go to the market as soon as possible. Let's get like a minimum viable product. Let's go to the market.

And let the market decide.

Let the market decide. And so for me, it's like, how can we just start putting something out there, getting a response, and then at least I can base whatever I'm going to build off the market response, not off whatever's going on in my head, which doesn't mean anything.

Right.

And so, yeah, I think, I think volume, I think just testing your ideas. And even for you, right, with the build in public stuff, that's a big part of it is just Putting your ideas out there and getting that response.

Yeah. I'm so glad you touched on sort of the volume of work and kind of shared your philosophy on it. It's almost like for me, somewhere in this journey, Callum, that like the light bulb went off and I feel like all of my focus shifted from metrics and output outcomes to completely being focused on the inputs. I feel like everybody goes through this sort of rite of passage where in the beginning as an amateur, Um, you're over-indexing on trying to look at your analytics too much, trying to look at like, oh, what are people saying? And mostly, most of the time, nobody cares. Nobody says anything. Mm-hmm. Um, and you're like, oh, why are they not saying anything? Maybe I should come from a different edgier angle, more controversial angle, more polarizing angle. And it's— the answer is just, you just haven't made enough reps yet, right? So at some point in that journey, for me, uh, it just switched. And I don't know what— maybe it's me kind of coming to terms with the fact that this is gonna be a long-term Game anyway. So, if you both know, like, we're gonna run a 100-meter dash, our priorities and our approach and the way we pounce at it will be different, as opposed to we both learning the fact that, okay, a podcast is like 3 marathons. Mm-hmm. All right, then we conserve the heck out of energy and we don't worry about, like, the first lap or anything. We just, you know, play the longest game possible, right? Mm-hmm. To make sure that you're having fun each, you know, lap. Otherwise, you may fall, like, you may just drop dead and you can't finish the course, right? Mm-hmm. So, um, someone at somewhere down the line for me that happened, and now I have the same impatience, but it's mostly on inputs, like what I can control. I'm very impatient. My team hates me for that because I'm always saying, when's the next launch? Or when is the next episode of the week? And they're like, Kippy, we're just still working on the first, you know, version of this. And like, I'm like, I want the trailer, I want this, I want a clip, and all that. And so I've taken all my energy and attention and like this focus from what, like, how many views we got to how much more can we give to the world. Hmm. You know what I mean? And I see this with you too. Same thing. Like, I see every day— in fact, I used you as a reference to my team, Callum, this week. I said, every day I open my feed on Twitter, you know, I could be having my breakfast, I could be having my morning coffee, there's Callum fucking Johnson dropping a new clip about one of his old videos And I have to watch it, right? And it's kind of like an early morning, you know, ritual now. And I wonder how many people feel this way about you silently as an audience, and maybe they're not telling you, right? But every day they open their feed, they see a clip from you, right? Mm-hmm. And I may never watch that particular episode from the podcast directory or Spotify or whatever, but I know the gist of it because I'm watching it 8 times in a week or 7 times in a week. You know, and so I think the short-form game you have is admirable. I love it. I'm taking notes, loving it.

I appreciate it. I appreciate it. And you know what, I wanna, I wanna add on to that because, um, I think people would hear that and they'd be like, I'm putting all this work into short form, but then those people aren't listening to the final episode, or why isn't that showing up in my final listens, or why am I not making more money off of that? But the thing is, I think— and don't get me wrong, sometimes I do have those thoughts. I'm not going to lie. Yeah, but I think the way that I look at it is that I think today, like, attention is everything.

Yeah.

Like when you look at companies like Google or Meta or any of these big social media companies, the thing that they have is attention.

Yeah.

These are trillion-dollar companies built off attention. And so it's a competitive landscape out there, man. Like, there's so many— think how many— like, even us as podcasters, we're not competing against other podcasters. We're competing for people's attention. I'm competing with Netflix, YouTube, um, like so many different forms of media. And so for even for someone to just watch your clip,

yeah, it's a big deal.

That's an investment. Yeah. And And I think, I think really where the mindset changed for me was I've always been pretty competitive and I started to look at the people that were at the top of this field, the biggest podcasters, your Joe Rogans, people like that. Joe Rogan has done over 2,000 episodes.

Yeah.

I think Alex Hormozi said it took him 5 years before he saw any success with his podcast. Publishing week after week after week. He

did 400 episodes before they broke into top 10 charts. Hmm. 5 years, which is crazy, right?

Yeah, but that's what I mean. And I think, I think all of the people that are at the top that you see and they're getting hundreds of thousands of views, I started to look at them. They've been doing it for 5 years minimum.

Yeah,

every week an episode comes out for 5 years. And so I've been doing it for 18 months. Really, in the last 6 months I've been doing it Consistently.

Yeah.

And so it's just so early.

Yeah.

And yeah, you have to keep that, that perspective.

Yeah.

Nothing comes overnight.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. So tell us about your podcasting regimen in the sense like, okay, what does it look like? Walk me through the journey of you picking a guest. What decision-making goes into Which, what kind of guests you want to attract on the show, right? Like, let's start there. I don't want to go through the whole podcasting lifecycle of pre-production, like actual recording, and then, you know, all that post-production, everything. So we're at the ideation stage, as in you're thinking about who my next 15 guests should be on the pod. What is going on in your mind? Like, how do you decide who should be on the pod?

You know what's interesting? So there's actually, there's like different angles to it. Um, I would say to begin with, It always has to start with an interest. I have to either have seen their content or just seen something about them that I'm like, I want to speak with this person. I think really the way that I do podcasting, I see it as conversations more than interviews.

Yeah.

I don't even see it as interviews.

Yeah.

And so the same way that you might walk into a party or walk into a bar and you're like, I want to talk with that person and have a conversation with them. But I'm not that interested in talking to that person. Yeah, I'm like, there needs to be like an interest there because I just think the audience can feel it. Yeah, 2 people are actually vibing.

Yeah, I mean, yeah.

And so it always starts with an interest. I think from there it then comes into— this is interesting because I kind of started thinking like this pretty recently. I started to kind of look at the pods Podcast landscape and people that were doing it really successfully. I think all of your favorite podcasts have an edge.

Yes,

they have something about them that you're tuning in for. And if you actually go deeper into it, wait,

wait, give me an example.

So, for example, okay, so Stephen Bartlett. I don't know if do you know Stephen Bartlett?

Yeah, yeah, the CEO, right? Like the

he does the Diary of the CEO.

Yeah.

Massive podcast in the UK, massive podcast in general,

the world. Yeah,

especially in the UK, massive podcast. And so like rips off hundreds of thousands or millions of views a week. Um, and so I was looking at his podcast, I'm like, what kind of— what makes this tick? Like, what makes this so good? Like, why is he getting such good results in this really competitive space where it's very difficult to grow? And really what he's able to do, he does two things. He does everything well, but he does two things to an elite level. One, he's incredible. He has very high what I call like EQ. A lot of his guests will like cry on the on the episodes. I don't know if you see.

Yeah, they cry. Yeah.

Yeah. And I've like never seen this before. I'm like people you've never seen cry in your life. Yeah. On his podcast. and be like sobbing. So, so he has like elite EQ and like interview skills just to be present enough that he can even bring that emotion out of someone. And then the second thing that he does really well is his team or him, they get really high-level guests and they get guests to the point where like these people are like celebrities. So they're, they're super media trained. you usually don't get these sort of raw, honest emotions out of them. So it's this incredible combination where he gets these incredibly authentic moments from these huge celebrities that we've just never seen in that light.

Wow.

And that's how he captivates an audience. But if you look at every podcaster who's at the top, they will have something like that. There's an edge to them, even like Rogan. His podcast is incredibly conversational. You can kind of listen to— you could just put it on in the background and it's almost like you're in the corner listening to 2 friends. Every podcast has this. Some people are like incredibly charismatic, right? You see a lot of comedians with really big podcasts because they're just funny. Um,

sometimes we gotta answer this question.

Go for it.

What is your edge, or what do you perceive as the edge you're trying to develop?

I think so. You know what, it's something that I think about all the time.

Then I have an answer for you because I want to say what I think is your edge, given I heard like 4 or 5 episodes.

Okay, this will be interesting then. Yeah, um, I think for me I'm always trying to hone it. I think always where it starts for me, I want to be incredibly authentic with the audience. So even the reason I called it The Callum Johnson Show is that I want it to feel not only are you learning from me, but it's like you're on this journey with me. Mhm. Like, I'm asking the questions not as like the super professional interviewer person. I'm asking the questions as if you were in the seat trying to learn from this world-class entrepreneur and you were just having this conversation. So I think the authenticity is something. And then I think I think everything kind of just ladders into that. Like, even the style of the podcast, I think, is super conversational. I try not to script it too much, um, and I just think the audience can, can feel that. Um, and then I think with the marketing, we just try and highlight those moments. We try and highlight those authentic moments, um, and everything is to kind of bring that out.

How do you look for those authentic moments? I'm curious. Like, what would you tell your editor Um, who's just joined your team about, okay, how do I find the authentic moments in a, in an interview?

You know what's interesting? So I actually, a few, a few months ago, our process was, is that I would have like a few bullet points of like, look for like polarizing or controversial, or look for moments where they talk about making money or like, it was very bullet pointed out. And I realized that once you start to like strategize stuff to that level, it takes something out of the content. Mm. And I started to say to them, I was like, just watch the episode and those moments that you remember, those moments that just resonated with you, use that as the metric. Not if I'm talking about how I made $20 million or how this guest made I don't know, tens of millions. But the moment that when you were watching it as a viewer, it hit you. Because that's the— and that's the thing, even, um, I wrote a tweet about this actually, because there's a lot of these like AI video clips.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh, services. And it's definitely a good way to get started. But the thing is, these AI, uh, editors, they use mainly like keywords. So they can see what you're saying, but they can't see how you're saying it. And that's a lot more powerful emotion. That's a lot more powerful, especially in short form,

right?

Where you're just trying to get people's attention and emotion. It's really how it's said more so than even what's said.

Wow.

And so for me, I think with our team, like, we really try and optimize for what are those impactful moments? What are those moments that when you heard it, It just stuck in your head. And so we kind of have this process where my editor will send me like 15 clips for an episode. And then together with my VA, I'll literally watch each one. And when you watch 15 clips back to back, there will be certain ones that just stick out in your mind. And then I'm like, oh, okay. That means that that was the one that meant something. That one kind of separates itself from the flock.

You know what's interesting about that example and sort of the way you laid down your process. It's almost very similar to mine, same thing. I always say when I record one, uh, episode, I send the— I ask my EA to send that episode to the editor, and that editor hopefully doesn't know much about the guest. Generally, she doesn't know much about the guest, um, because she's not in the tech world, which is great because I want like a complete non-tech beginner to watch the episode and catch the 15 12 to 15, like, top moments. And then she sends back, like, her version of 10, 20, 30-second clips. And then I go through the same process. And then I genuinely, actually, I used to really over-strategize this in the past. Um, now I don't think too much. I try to feel it. You know, I don't try to think like, oh yeah, you know, there was dollar number mentioned here. This could be a great background for— I'm like, I don't think about that now. I'm like, whoa, in this moment, Callum literally like raised his voice and, you know, widened his eyes. That's the one. I just— it's a feeling, right? And I almost try to make it seem like that I would care about it as an audience, not so much that my show's generic audience cares or something, you know? So it's a little bit like a dictator. You have to really kind of make a choice and dictate like, okay, I think this is the right one, and then learn from market's reaction. Most times, you learn the negative reaction, which is like nobody cared. Okay, then like maybe I gotta refine what I think is valuable. But, you know, there's this beautiful saying that I don't know if I shared with you, but Rubin has in this book called The Creative Act, where he says the audience comes last, right? We talked about that. Yeah, we talked about that. That was such a profound thing to say in the music industry because usually, you know, people like musicians and artists like crave trying to appease to the audience. He says you should, as an artist, you should feel that emotion first and feel like you're being captivated by it first. And that will ripple, that will domino effect itself into audience, but like not think about what their preferences are first, you know.

You know, you know what's interesting? I want to, I want to add on to that because, um, I think there's a quote by Henry Ford Yeah, or was it? Yeah, yeah, it was the person that started Ferrari, and he was like, if I asked the audience what they— if I asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse. And so I think in anything creative,

yeah,

you know what, I think in it kind of goes back to what you were saying about your edge. When you— your edge is like your instinct. Yes, like who you are. Like, that's your talent. Like, that's what makes you good or bad.

Yeah.

So I think for me, I'm like, how do I just get closer and closer to that instinct level? Because if you're operating on that instinct level, it's not only will you— that's when you'll produce your best podcast episodes, that's when you'll have your most present, in-tune conversations, that's when you'll pick out the best marketing moments That's when you'll choose the best background music to go with that marketing moment. It's just when you're operating on that instinct level and the audience can feel that. You can feel when someone is just— they're not trying to impress you, they're just giving you value. They're just being authentic.

Yeah. And so to close the loop on what I think is your edge, Callum, and I think I only watched like Maybe 4 or 5 episodes and definitely 50 or 60 of your clips. So more clips than the long form, which I wonder, maybe my audience are like that too. Maybe a lot of my audience watch just the lightweight, you know, short form. And then, because people don't have time to watch the long form, it's another thing we have to accept and appreciate, right? Like, you're never going to get to the, you know, Joe Rogan level or Alex Hormozi level yet because people just don't have that time. You know, people are busy. Anyway, so there's two things I think that stand out about you. One, one is that you're British. Just kidding. One is your curiosity is so palpable, you know, and I feel like I feel the same way even about Danny to an extent. Like Danny's very curious. Danny Miranda. I feel like as a podcaster, we are a smaller set of people. Among the podcasting world who are genuinely curious, because there's a lot of people out there who are just fronting it, who are just trying to like, you know, say the buzzwords, hit the, you know, like the angles. Like controversy is an angle, polarizing is an angle, and all that shit, which is okay. But you listen to their stuff and it's so dry. Mm-hmm. It's so dry. And you can tell that there's just no juice in it, you know? Like there's no way that I'm like enriched by the convo. Right? So you are like that. You're very authentic. And I try to be the same. Like, I'm very— because one thing I learned is if I'm not going to be Tim Ferriss, which is highly produced, like this great mega show, I might as well be the opposite. Completely authentic, raw, like real-life KP. If you listen to the podcast, if you met me, there should be zero difference. I feel like you're like that, you know? Which is how, by the way, my conversation with you was like that, right? When we talked, I was saying, oh my God, this feels like talking to you from the pod, right? Anyway, so extremely authentic, number one. Number 2, I think, is you have this really sharp acumen of, um, like you said, the instinct thing. I think it's more like a taste thing. You have a really sharp taste of what makes great, uh, podcast content in terms of moments, which I admire and I'm envious of. Is— I feel like I have a little bit of that, but you're like an elite level. Like, you know In a 60-minute convo, here's the 3 things that you know will do well for short clips. And just to kind of broadly resonate, like I watched the Ankur Nagpal once, you killed it with that one. Like I said, it's not like a controversy for controversy or trying to get, but like there's something about it. Like you have that great sense of like, okay, this is the right moment we should highlight. You know, that is a media thing. You know, like, so I'm actually— with that said, first of all, what's your reaction on that? Second of all, I will have a follow-up for that question.

No, no, I love it. I, I really appreciate it. It's like, um,

does it resonate with you? Like, does it ring a bell? Like, when, when I say like you have that kind of instinct or taste which is hard to copy or hard to almost emulate?

Yeah, you know, it's actually the— I, I know that people, people love like the marketing that we do And they really respond well to the clips, but I've never actually had someone tell it to me like that. So I know I really, I really appreciate it. And I think for me, it's, it goes back to that instinct level. And I think also I've just consumed so much media

too.

And when you consume so much media, and then You know what, I actually wrote about this as well. I said like, once you become a creator, it— the way that you consume media changes.

Yeah.

Like, I'll listen to other people's podcasts and I'll be like, if the guest said that, here's actually the question I would have asked instead of what the host would have asked. And so a lot of the times I'll be watching other people's clips or I'll be watching other people's podcasts and I'll be like, If they wanted to make that clip a bit better, they actually should have worded the question like this.

See, that, that is the shit that I'm talking about. That is the magic sauce. Because my brain doesn't think like that. And not to say that it's, you know, it's, it's, it's better or different. It's just different, right? Like you bring that to the table. My brain does not think like that. And I noticed this and that parlays into how I guess you do the editing, you do the chopping, the way you kind of lay the conversation, you know, in the intro or in the teaser or even in the live thing. My brain goes into, like, you know, when I listen to, like, I listen to Charlie Rose. I'm like very eclectic in how I consume this sort of interview stuff. So I listen to Charlie Rose from the '90s, right? Like 60 Minutes. And I'm like, I'd look at the pacing. I think about how the conversation is like a song. There's like some words are said quietly and some, I mean, some sentences are shorter and then sometimes they just— He just goes nuts on it. Like he just goes like all in, right? And then I listen to some, I listen to like a lot of the contemporary podcasters and I listen to the intro, the outro. What are they excited about? How do they present, you know, the intro? And so my thing is more around like, I grew up, I don't know if I've ever shared this on the podcast, but like my dad was a filmmaker. I have a very uncomfortable relationship with my dad. Not, you know, not the best relationship, but like, At least he would take us. One of the things he did really well was he would take us to the movie sets and he would leave us. And I was the kind of person who would always gravitate towards the editing studios and I would sit with the editors like a, you know, 10-year-old kid and watch what they would do. And I would see the raw footage that they would take and build a narrative around the footage. So I always thought that building a narrative is very, very important. When you are, you know, a creator. And so I'm— the way I process a lot of what I consume is how do you build a narrative from this thing to that thing to that? You know what I mean? So it's like a collage. I don't always do justice in the output. Like it never always lives up to what I want in my mind, but I'm always thinking like, what would be their cold open here? How would you start from a random point in Callum's journey? Right. And so things like that, I'm like always. Trying to like bring a narrative into the thing. And the other thing, I think my edge is that I'm so hyped. If you've, you know, you know my—

You have good, very good energy.

Insanely high energetic. Like, I'm so— every— all of my friends used to say like, KP, are you on 4th coffee today? I'm like, I actually know, you know, it's the God's gift, man. So I just bring that to the pot. I gotta sort of— let's go through that lifecycle we were talking about. You shared how you decide On picking the guest. It's about interest, it's about curiosity. If you feel like this is the kind of person you want to sit down with, what is your research regimen like? How much do you research? How much do you leave for in-the-moment conversations?

Yeah, you know, actually, and I want to, I want to bring this what we were talking about with the edge as well, because I think one mistake that I made when I was younger, I wanted to be great at everything. Like I wanted to take what your best skill was and make it my best skill, and I want to take what that guy's best skill was. I wanted everything. And increasingly, what I've realized is, and even through these conversations with these entrepreneurs and even listening to different media, it's the people that are the best. They they know what they're good at on a very detailed level. They're not like oh I do marketing well. They know exactly what their thing is, and then they know how to elevate that. Everything that they do is focused on that. And so I think for me, like what you described, even with like how you think about production or how you think about editing and storytelling and all those things, it's— that's your thing. And even being high energy, like that's your power,

right?

If someone who was like low energy was listening to this and it's like, okay, I'm gonna be high energy now, it wouldn't work. Wouldn't work. It's not their thing. Yeah. Like, it's— they're never going to be able to do it to the same degree as someone who does it naturally. And so increasingly, I don't really think my— my job is not to like make my weaknesses so much into strengths, but really to identify like, what am I naturally good at? And then how do I elevate that through the content?

Yeah.

And so The reason I mentioned that is when you ask about research, my thing, my thing is like, I just want to be super present with the guest. I just want to be right there with them. Because you can tell when you listen to certain podcasts when the interviewer is right there with the guest versus they're trying to remember that question that they thought about from 3 days ago, right, that they were meant to talk about. Right. It was like one of their talking points.

Yes.

I don't like that content. I like it when people are like there with the guests and it's a conversation.

Yeah.

And I say that to say, so we do— my, my VA, every guest that we get on, I already know what they do because I've been following them. I'm aware of them. I wouldn't have wanted to reach out to them if I wasn't. But my VA will do like a baseline of research and he'll actually come up with like some questions of different things. And then I will review that. I will take maybe like the 20, 25 questions that he comes up with and come with like a more narrow list. And then the narrow list, which I'm specifically interested in, I'll actually send that to the guest ahead of time.

Oh, nice.

I don't, I don't do that for myself or for my research. I do that purely for the guest so that they know that I'm, I've at least taken the time. to be well researched. But I'm upfront with the guest, and I'll tell them that sometimes I won't ask you a single question on that list because we might sit down and we start talking about something even before the podcast has started, and I'm like, that's where we're starting.

Yeah.

Right there. Yeah. And let's go there. And so I think really in my preparation, I put myself in a great headspace to have really good conversations. So I make sure that I'm like well rested, uh, I make sure that I take time to like meditate, to go on walks. Like, I just put myself in a headspace where I can have a really natural conversation. And I'm a big believer in the fact that I think there's such thing as being over-prepared. And so I never want to be in the interview thinking about my preparation or thinking about research or thinking about any of that. I want to have an awareness of all of those things,

right?

But I actually want the majority of my preparation focused on just being present with that guest.

Yeah.

And the reason I say that, because there's, there's podcasts that are crushing it that are very scripted, that have really heavy research, and that's what their host does to a world-class level, is detailed research, like in-the-weeds research. That is not my thing.

Yeah, mine neither. I mean, it's not my thing either. And I feel like early on, within like first 3, 4 episodes, it was apparent for me that I can't do this shit, especially when you starting out as a part-time podcaster, which is what I did, right? Um, I was like, the mess— the best I could do is like a 2-page printout of some of the, you know, high-level research. And then I consumed that, like to your point, I consumed that to have a low-level, I mean, a basic awareness of what they've done, what their past is, and kind of come into a bit, a little bit prepared, but I'm, I'm in the same camp where my strength is not the research. If you're listening in to the podcast for a surprising thing that I would dig out from, I don't know, 2001 or something, that's not, this is not the right podcast, right? So, so yeah, I'm with you there too. It was also, you gotta play to your strengths, like we said.

You know, just one, just one thing as well, because I did the thing where initially I would try and do like this really deep research. Like I tried to do it. And it would, it would mess with me because my whole thing was authenticity. And I want the, the effect I want to give is that I'm learning about the guest and the audience is learning about the guest. And it's this really authentic relationship where it's like someone who's deeply curious, who's present, is learning about this really accomplished, successful, interesting person, but they're learning with me. So they're not like— and so it was a bit weird when I would do like super deep research.

Like, if you had some privy information about them too that the audience may not have, then you have a head start there.

It messes up the authenticity. Yeah, because I'd be like, so after you sold your business, then what did you do? But I know everything that they did. I know exactly why they did it. Yeah. And so it would be like, it just wasn't—

It's also hard to feel fascinated. You know, when you were telling me about sort of the edge, I was fascinated. You know, hopefully that came across in the video. But that's because that was the first time I'm listening to you say what your edge is. If I already knew that in the past, it would be hard for me to feign. It would be hard for me to act as surprised or as captivated, in my view. So. No, I mean, I think it's completely aligned on that one. If you have to summarize your key learnings about short-form, how would you put them or how would you phrase them? What are your top 3 key learnings about short-form videos? What works? What doesn't work? What should people do? What are some strategic tips?

Yeah, you know, I'll, I'll start here. And this isn't even short form. This is just social media in general. You need to create a process where you can be consistent. A lot of the platforms, they reward consistency. They reward people that post at the same cadence day after day over long periods of time. And so I've seen it with myself. I've seen it with other creators. where they will post 100 videos in 100 days and they don't even perform that well. Yeah. They get like 100 views, a few hundred views each one, and then one goes and rips for like 300,000 or a million. But that's, that's how the algorithm works. And so I think to anyone listening, it's like create a process that you know that you can, uh, achieve and execute day in, day out. This is not about producing unless you're, you know, there's always caveats to this because sometimes person will like make the most incredible video and they just post one and it goes because it was just an incredible video. But even then, to be able to make one incredible video, you need to have made like hundreds of really mediocre to bad videos, right, to even have that taste level,

right?

So that's the first thing I think. Always optimize for consistency in your output. Um, I think the second thing, I think always you hear people when they talk about short form talk about like the hook and like sparking curiosity and then having like a CTA or some sort of call to action at the end. I guess those things are true. I think for me, like I, like I said, I try and go off the instinct level. And like, even if the hook's not the cleanest, I'm like, okay, what, what's the impact? What's the impact of this clip? And then I think the, the final thing is when it comes to the editing, because I think a lot of people inspired by like Alex Hormozi and—

Right.

Gary Vaynerchuk and Grant Cardone and all these like prolific marketers who just have this content engine People are looking at like their fancy captions and their fancy editing and their fancy like emojis that are popping up in different, um, positions. A lot of that to me is distraction. It's distraction. And like the way I think about editing, and I always tell my editors this, I say the editing should elevate the content, should elevate the message of the content. So if I have like a super emotional clip, the only purpose of the editing is to heighten that emotion.

Wow.

Is to make what I'm saying but 2 to 3x it. So that could be having the right background music, that could be how the camera's panning in and out, that could be even the way that the font looks. Everything is to heighten that emotion. And I think we've gotten to a place where like people are just trying tricks that they see from like Alex Hormozi or Gary Vee, which like it might work for them because they're like world-class speakers with like massive marketing teams and an audience already. And also they're the pioneers, they're the people that originated this. But I think my method is I don't even care that much about fancy effects or like any of that stuff. It's just editing that elevates the content. Everything is in service to the content, not the other way around. I feel like people try and make the editing the center of the show and not what's actually being said.

The content is the center of the show. Yeah, dude, I think that is also an edge, you know, back to your original thing about what makes you like unique. I think the fact that this, what you just described is so instinctual to you, right? It's like almost a, like a gut sense to you. I think it's the edge. Because when you described that, the heightening the emotion thing, I was like, oh, that is so you. Because I remember the clips I've seen. I'm like, that is so you. Because when sometimes somebody's describing a difficult experience as a founder, the music slowly slows down and then you like zoom in. I'm like, oh, that's you. Like, right? So I'm like, so killer, man. Killer. I love, I love it. I love that playful attitude about, you know, the whole thing. Okay, so a couple questions and we can wrap. If you had to pick 3 people in the world living that you would love to have, um, on your show, who would those 3 be? With no logic of whether that can happen or not.

You know what, those— yeah, I'll say 2 that are living, and then I also want to get one that isn't living, but I would just love to have a conversation. And it's hard because there's so many names that I know that I'll think back in like a few days, I'll be like, oh, I should have said him instead. Um, the one that instantly came— Top of mind. Yeah. The one that instantly came to mind was LeBron James. Wow. Just because I, I don't think— I don't feel like you hear from him that often.

Correct.

And then I also think because I'm so— this is going to conflict with what I said earlier, but because I'm so aware of his story, there's just certain things I really want to ask. Like I really want to know, but not from the angle that everyone always covers LeBron from, where they're talking about like GOAT debates and right. I don't know. Like I would just be interested to know. Like one of the things with LeBron is obviously he signed his first deal with Nike.

Correct.

But there's this story of when he was like 16, 17, and he went into this meeting with Reebok. And you have to think the context at the time is like he's living in like Akron, Ohio, like in the hood. Like he's like, like, like poor conditions, like single mother. And, um, like he's never had like a bunch of money. And he walks into the room with the, with the president of Reebok and they offer him like a few million, but he has to sign like right then and there. And there's this thing where he's like, he doesn't sign it and he's like, okay, I want to talk to Nike. I want to talk to Adidas. I want to talk to the other companies. Obviously ends up signing with Nike. And at this point he has like a lifetime deal with them, which is worth like half a billion or something. But I just, I think one of the things I'm just so curious about is like, we're all kind of products of environment. Hmm. And I just, I think about even what we were talking about at the beginning about patience. And I just imagine, I'm like, you have a single mom, no one in your family is like a millionaire or earns 7 figures or has even touched a million in their whole life, and someone walks into a room and you're 16, 17 and offers you like a million-dollar check and you're like, no, I'm gonna go talk. I'm like, most people are not doing any more talking, right? They are like, I am signing that right then and there.

You must be really self-aware to know what you're worth like that, right?

But that, that's the thing, because I think with every, with every podcast that I do, I don't— it sounds weird, but I'm of course interested in, in what they did and what they achieved, but more so I'm interested in like who they are, like who they truly are, like what was the why behind that.

Yeah.

And so I would just be— I think the thing with LeBron, I just want to know like Like, why is he the way that he is? And why has he been like that since 16? Like, what makes a 17-year-old make that choice and have that foresight to even be like, you know what, I'm gonna leave that deal on the table because there's a better deal,

right?

Because his environment doesn't, doesn't show that that should be the case.

Yeah, it doesn't map to that, right? Yeah.

So I think LeBron would definitely be one. Um, the one who's not alive that I was thinking that I would love is Muhammad Ali.

Yes. Wow.

Just like, there's just so many things I respect about him.

Iconic, man. Yeah, of course.

Just iconic. And I think, I think the thing with him is, um, and we're seeing it so much today, um, there's almost like a groupthink, you know? Like, I think, and we all do this, which is like, if everyone kind of thinks a certain way, we kind of move with that crowd. And one of the most interesting things about Muhammad Ali is like even the stuff around like the Vietnam War and like them trying to force him to go to war and like some of the things that he would say and like the confidence that he would carry himself with. Yeah. And I'm like, again, it's similar to the LeBron thing where I'm like, the world is— there was so much more like racism, like blatant racism at that time as well. And I'm like, the world is telling you that you're this person and you're like, no, I'm this person. And you're just so just headstrong in that conviction, and then you back it up like— but there's actually, there's something behind the confidence as well. I, I would just love to— yeah, I think again, I just want to know like, how is an individual like that created?

He was such a renegade, you know? Yeah, it was such a— yeah, an incredible, incredible human being. Okay, who would be your third choice? Would you pick a living or dead person? It's up to you.

Oh, let me go living. Um, third, if I could do anyone— that is tough. Anyone tough? That is tough. Uh, you know, because there's like different people that come to mind, but this— I think it's more because they're top of mind for me. Like, I kind of try and get them right. So like, I think Stephen Bartlett is one that comes to mind.

Yes.

more so because I think his approach to content— I really just admire like the way that he makes content.

Yeah.

The way that he does marketing. Um, and because I've just analyzed what he does to such a deep degree, I know I'd be able to ask him the questions that I don't think— the things that people aren't picking up on. Because the same way that I do trailers and I do marketing, and it's just— it's purely to elevate the emotion of the content, I can tell the way that he does it, it's the same. It's the same, maybe even to a higher degree. Um, so I would love to find out more about his approach to content. Every, every, every podcast I listen to, I love when I hear Alex Hormozi. Um, I think Gary Vee as well, because I've just, I've been listening to him for like 10 years.

Yeah, me too. For like, since we were kids almost, right? He's like the pioneer.

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know. There's, there's so many though.

That's a great list. That's a great list, man. Well, I'm wishing that you get a chance to interview all of the living people that you've put on the list. And, you know—

Who's on your list? Who's on your list? I'm curious.

My list, my list, I think about this all the time. My list would be Steph Curry. I love him. And I think just like how you have your curiosities around so many things that LeBron did unique, that are unique. I think with Steph being such underrated, you know, when he was at Davidson and like going from there to being all-time greatest 3-point shooter, I think such a great story arc. Would love to have a lot of— he's also a great family man, which, you know, I'm like very, very close to my kid and my wife. And so I think there's like a lot I wanna unpack. Number 2 would be Naval Ravikant, who's very famous in the tech world, right?

Oh yeah, that's actually, I should have said Naval, yeah.

But, you know, I think more so, I feel like Nawar, everybody wants to interview him. So I think it's kind of like overplayed a little bit. But I personally, just to maybe, I feel like it doesn't have to be an interview. Maybe I'll just say thank you. And that's it. That's the interview, right? Like just for his insightful sort of groundbreaking way of showing us what wealth really means and like what leverage really means. I think all of us in this generation were impacted by that. Um, third one I actually already did, which is Gary Vee. So— Oh,

okay.

I've had a— I've had a dream come true. That was insane, man. Like, that interview with Gary was unbelievable. I was so— but I also felt— I think this is something you will probably feel with Steve Bartlett or even Hormozi— because of how much I consumed his stuff and appreciated his stuff and like really unpacked a lot of it mentally, it felt so easy to connect with him. And he could sense it within seconds. He was like, I remember him saying, "Oh, KP! Oh, that's such a great question." Not about like I didn't do any research, no research because I know him. What what what? It's like doing research on your sibling, right? Like I know everything about Gary. I mean, at least in the public realm. I don't know his personal life, but um so it was such a level playing conversation that was so fun, and he was exactly how you you would expect him to be humble. Approachable, curious, and also fired up. Like it like he felt like he just drank five coffees or something. He just fired up. And so it was a it was a that was also another thing unlocked that happened for me was I realized that all of the people that I admire, people that are put on a pedestal, like in a good way, like people that I look up to are no different than me. You know, it's the volume of work. It's like you have to climb your Mount Everest. to be known for something. They climbed their Mount Everest, but you cannot climb theirs. So you have to climb your Mount Everest, right? So once you get to a certain level, even if it's like 3/4 of the way or one, you know, halfway, people start recognizing you. Mm-hmm. And you'll see your journey and you're like, whoa, I come— I've come a long way, you know? And so you don't feel as much of an intimidation as much, but you feel a sense of appreciation. You know how much it took for them to get to their top. And so, I spoke to him again a year after when I was at Day One. I did a Twitter Spaces interview. He was exactly the same and he even recognized me, KP, good to see you, man, and all that. And I was also blown away by how he remembers people despite the fact that he probably talks to how many? 10,000 people per day, right? So, all the things that you would imagine that, you know, that this would be right about such people is Is right. So, yeah, so it was such a great, great, great memory. But man, we could talk for hours. I can't wait to bring you back for round 2. But I feel like you're at the cusp. I genuinely mean it. I feel like you're at the cusp of something really, really amazing for both your company, The Podcasting Agency, but also for your own podcast. I'm continuing. I am, you know, like going to continue to Root for you from the sidelines, cheer on you, and trade notes with you and learn from you.

Thank you so much, man. And thank you for having me on. I know what goes into like putting these episodes out and all the research and preparation and mental prep.

It was easy for you though, I'll tell you that. Like, I feel like I had a lot more questions, but I feel like we just pursued the curiosity. So I kind of went off script, which is always usually my best episodes. So yeah, thank you so much and let's keep in touch.

It's a pleasure, man. I loved it.

Have a good one.

You too, man.