Personal Holding Companies Are Going To Be The Future (feat. Yong-Soo Chung)

All right. Hello everybody. Welcome to yet another episode of the Build in Public podcast, and I'm your host KP. And today I am super thrilled to invite Yongsoo Chung onto the show. Yongsoo, thanks for joining from San Francisco.

KP, thanks so much for having me here. You know, I feel like I've known you since the beginning of my creator journey, and this is like kind of full circle, man. I, I'm so happy to be here.

You've been such an authentic, Creator, you know, to follow along, and I can't remember when I hit follow. I think it's been a few months now, and you know, you've been you know such a fun account to follow. You've been such a fun individual to follow and learn from. And the parts like a couple of things I want to highlight to the listeners, you know, and viewers about you that resonate deeply with me is your story. I think you you mentioned something about twelve years ago where you got started in San Francisco with zero. You kind of like A classic example of someone who made the most of what was given, you know, to him. And so this whole decade-plus journey that you've shared repeatedly on your Twitter really resonates with me. You know, you went from zero to like, you know, now $5 million a couple times, I think you've said, in your company journey, which we're going to double-click into about how you got there, what are some businesses you started. The other thing that resonates a lot is that you're also a fellow podcaster. So I love that. You know, you recently completed 1 year of podcasting, so congrats. This is a grind. Thank you. This is not that easy. Huge respect for anyone who goes over 20, 30 episodes. And I loved your podcast. I listened to the last one, the recent episode, and you bring a lot of, you know, actionable lessons, like life lessons, I think you want to call them, to the listeners. So you come off as a very authentic creator. You share You know, to help, to share, to serve, and you want to help people and like genuinely add value. So thank you for all that you do on Twitter and in DMs. I've really enjoyed our friendship, virtual friendship, and now I'm getting a chance to spend, you know, 40, 50 minutes with you and, you know, help everybody else get a sense of who you are too.

I appreciate that, man. I, it's been a fun journey so far. And as you know, the creator journey can be quite grueling at times, but, you know, having friends like you, you know, supporting my journey, you know, that really means a lot. So I appreciate that.

So let's start with the Twitter journey, right? I feel like there were— your story resonates with a lot of our listeners because, you know, I talk about building in public and all. And one of the hardest, you know, challenges is knowing what is your actual niche to talk about, right? Like there's one thing to think that this could be my niche and then you experiment with it. But really what resonates with people It's something like we can't really predict on day one, right? And you went through this exact, like, loop recently. So can you share any lessons or any nuggets to someone who's listening and wondering, what is my niche really? Like, how do I identify my niche?

Yeah, so, you know, this is a really interesting and tough question to answer. So I really thought about, you know, as a creator, like, how do you differentiate yourself? Because there's so many creators with, you know, everyone talks about being a niche of one, you know, category of one. But how do you actually do that? Because I mean, at some point everyone's going to be a category of one and then it's like, if everyone's a category of one, then no one is a category of, you know what I mean? Like it's at some point it just kind of, yeah, it just kind of blends in. And so the way I thought about it is, you know, there's kind of 3 parts to finding a niche and I'm talking about a high-value niche, right? So when you think about your niche, you also want to think about the positioning of that niche. So like what type of audience are you going to attract, right? What type of people are you going to surround yourself with because of the content that you're putting out there? And so, the 3 different areas are, the first one is your actual experiences, which I think a lot of people, most people would actually, you know, they know what that is because a lot of people talk about that.

Right.

The second thing is perceived authority. And so, this is very different from real experience because You know, I could walk into a grocery store and, you know, someone who's like the world researcher, top researcher of like, I don't know, some rare disease might be in there, but I have no clue who that is. You know what I mean? Like, and it's the same thing when you go online, like you could be the best in something, but if you don't position yourself, then no one will know that you're actually the best at it, at that. Right. So that's the second component to it. And the final component to this, which I think that I haven't heard of anybody talk about, is this supply and demand thing. So when you think about the economics of information, you know, what's out there on social media or whatever, you know, essentially you're playing a game of supply and demand. And so if you have experience and you could talk about something that is very unique to you that no one else can talk about, Mm-hmm. then the supply is going to be very small, right? Because you're going to be the only one who can really talk about that. Right. But then the demand, let's say no one cares about that, let's say, right? Like, let's say you're an expert in, I don't know, like some like really obscure programming language from like the 1980s or whatever, right? Like you're an expert at this like really niche thing and you could talk about it for hours. But then like if no one cares about that, then you don't, it doesn't matter. You know what I mean? So if you have a niche that is, you know, Low supply, which is what you're going for, low supply in your information, but then high demand, that's when you're going to get your high value niche. And so what I mean by that is like, um, you know, I'll give you an example. So like when AI first came out, no one knew how to do prompt engineering correctly. And so, right, you have this huge pent-up demand of people trying to figure this out. It's like a new wave of, you know, AI's taking over the world. Like, how do I get in front of it? Huge demand, and there was not a lot of information out there, you know, that people, experts out there who knew prompt engineering. And so what you had there was this like perfect combination of like super high demand and very low supply right at the beginning when this was all happening.

Right.

And that's why like the, all the AI newsletters just exploded, like 100,000, 200,000 subscribers. Like it exploded because people were looking for tools and like, how do I build the next AI tool? And so that was a super high valuable niche at that time. Now, obviously things have gotten, you know, things have changed now, the landscape. So there's more players now. And so there's more supply, more supply of information. Uh, and I would argue probably a little less demand as well, cuz people are getting used to living with AI.

Yeah. Right.

And so now it's, it's kind of come down where if I'm trying to be an AI niche creator, like I'm not going to get the same traction as I did like a year ago. Right.

Right.

So it's this idea of supply and demand. Yeah.

Yeah. It's brilliant. I think the third part definitely is underrated. You know, I don't think a lot of people actively intentionally think about it as often. And so with these 3 components, you know, as I rephrase them or sort of rebring them back to the surface once again for the listeners, it is the supply and demand, which is the third component. The second component is perceived authority, which is how do they know, you know, how credible you are about what you're talking about. And the first one obviously is real-life personal experience. You know, you used these 3 and you got to the niche of personal holding companies, right? What were some other niches you were— I guess, what were other pit stops before you got to this point? Yeah. What were some other niches that you had to stop briefly? Until you got to this point?

Yeah. So this is a really good question, KP, because, you know, I struggled for almost a full year finding my niche. And like, you know, it's when I— it's frustrating because at the beginning I had all this like experience building this company, like 8 years, you know, $20 million total revenue, all that stuff. And so I'm like posting about my experience, but then the people that are responding, it was like, no one cares. And not only that, but like the people, what I was like watching people go viral on X and I'm like, this guy who's, who's like a 20-year-old person who has never had any business is going viral with the same content that I'm writing. He has no, you know, whatever, uh, experience. And I'm like tweeting into the void. Right. And so that was like going back to that framework, the 3-step framework. Like that was, you know, I had one, which was like, My experience, but then my perceived authority was basically nothing. Like no one knew what I did. And so I really had to change that up. But basically when I first joined Twitter—

The funny thing is including keen minds like me, right? I'm not like your average sort of judgy, I guess, lurker. I'm very active and always trying to lift people up. And even like, even through my scout radar, I couldn't get to the perceived authority of what you were special about, what your authority was, you know, initially. And that's why when you finally broke through that, you know, broke through that bubble and got to that niche, and, you know, remember my comments under your threads and so on, like, hurrah, you know, finally, thank you. Because I finally get it, right? I finally get it. It's kind of like, you know, I finally can able— I'm able to complete the puzzle of Who, you know, what your niche is going to be about, right? So I was so happy for you when that came up.

Yeah, no. So basically, you know, I decided to start talking more about my experiences, but then talking about like different parts of company building. But to be honest with you, KP, like it was so disjointed. Like I was talking about my, you know, French bulldog business and then all of a sudden I'm talking about my pocket knife business. And then I have a, you know, a 3PL business for e-commerce brands and like, It doesn't seem like it's connected in any way, shape, or form. And so I started talking more about that to increase my authority, my perceived authority, but it still didn't really catch on because it was so like, okay, if I talk about e-commerce, then I'm going to get e-commerce people, right? But then if I talk about like logistics, I'm going to get more logistics. So basically I was like, how do I like position this and package this together to make it more, more sense, right? And so When I first came across the personal holding company idea, I was like, this is what I have. And what's crazy, KP, is that I've been doing this for 8 years now and people are now trying to build their personal holding companies. Like even people like, for example, like Anthony Pompliano actually DM'd me after he saw one of my tweets and he was like, let's talk about personal holding company. Like these people are like trying to build their own now. But then all of a sudden I found myself in a position of authority because it's like, all right, like now I'm 8 years into this, I can actually talk about it. And all of a sudden we go back to that supply and demand thing. Like supply is very low. Like not a lot of people can say they've built a personal holding company for 8 years. And the demand all of a sudden, it's a really hot topic. Like holding companies in general is like a very hot topic. And so demand was high. Right now. But this really specific niche of personal holding company is not a lot of supply of people talking about it. And so all of a sudden, like my stock went up in terms of like, you know, my content started getting more engagement. People were following me, people who I thought I would never be able to reach started following me like these bigger accounts. And I'm like, all right, there's something here. And so that's how I found, you know, my niche, but it took me a while and it took me, Really, it's about packaging, KP. Like, it's not about like, yeah, like I was saying the same stuff, but it's more that now it's, it's like, this is how it works together. And everyone's like, right. Okay. I got it now.

Yeah. Right. Packaging. And also I think, you know, it's one of those things where the wand picks the wizard kind of thing. I always joke about this where you really don't know this on day one. If you knew this, if somehow I showed up at your doorstep on day one of your new Twitter journey and said, Oh my God, Yong Soo, this is going to be your niche. And you're going to be like, nah, you know, I don't know. You're not going to have the conviction. The conviction comes from the experience of going through the desert. You know, like it's this sort of the rocky path that you take builds this thick skin and the muscle and everything. And so when you finally see signal in the sea of noise, you're like, okay, that, now I get it. Right? Otherwise you don't have conviction. You just have A potential niche. So I remember going through the same thing in 2018. I was tweeting about philosophy. Like if you followed me from back then, like, oh, God bless you. Anyone who follows, like I have so much respect for them because I've gone through 8 niches. Like no-code was a later one, but I'm saying like in the beginning it was like philosophy and then Buddhism. I went to Buddhist camps and stuff like that. I tweeted a lot about that. I tweeted a lot about esoteric things about what is the self, you know, what is the, what is the, you know, All these meta things. And then I tweeted about, I used to tweet about the community building, you know, tweet about Product Hunt as a niche. And I went, cycled through basically all these and I really didn't feel resonance from the community. It was a like here, a comment here, but it wasn't like I was getting the big names to DM me or a wave of, you know, small names to resonate until I hit up on 2 things. One was no-code in 2020. It was like, Anything I could tweet was going viral. I had a Midas touch. Anything I did was like, oh my God, you know, this, that. But partly because I had proof of work of 15 no-code projects I built in public. So it's undeniable proof. Like with you, the same thing with 8 years of traction is undeniable proof, right? And I would get pings from like Eric Thornberg who ran On Deck. And that's really why I got my job because he was noticing that KP was at the forefront of this wave of something called no-code. I was hired to be the no-code director at On Deck. So that was the niche for 2 years from 2020 to 2022. And then slowly I pivoted away from just no-code to building in public because the same thing happened again. Like there was a lot of resonance, but I didn't know this playbook on October 2018, you know, it just is serendipitous. So really it's just, it's a painful journey, right? Like you can't make it easy for anybody. Sometimes some people ask me, what is the hack? What is the shortcut? I'm like this, I wish there was a shortcut. I will give you the shortcut, but you won't have conviction. on that.

Right. Would you agree? I think I would agree. I think that everyone needs to go through this period of experimentation. And honestly, it's like almost like, uh, you know, it's like the, you know, when you first try to become like a, I don't know, a monk or something like you, you know, the first months are gonna be like, you're gonna question your existence. Like, you know what I mean? Like, why am I here? Why am I doing this? But then you gotta get through that. You gotta get through it.

Yeah.

And then once you're—

But the magical part though is somehow it comes back to something deep within you. Mm-hmm. That part is for sure. Like it didn't, the resonating part from the audience didn't come and tarnish the fact that this is something that you personally care about. It is still something you actually care about, like the topic, right? So it's not some esoteric thing about dentists or whatever, right? It's something you still like personally, it's something about you. Same thing with me, building in public. It's not, even though it came from the audience, It wasn't like, I don't know, like vegan cooking recipes. It was actually something I care about, which is building in public, right? Right. So ultimately comes back to the source within you. But we don't know which of those elements of us that would become the niche until you kind of test every element, you know? So going back to your story one more time, I actually, there were so many inflection points that you tweet about, you know, in your e-commerce journey and then the pocket knife thing. I actually want to get a sense of like, summarize this odyssey that you've been on from the lens of inflection points, as in like I did X and then I did Y and then I did Z, and give us maybe some numbers to contextualize each inflection point.

You're talking about just creator journey or just everything?

Yeah, I'm talking about, no, no, founder journey.

Founder journey. All right. So I started my career in finance in New York City. And we'll speed through that part. But basically, I was a trader on Wall Street, and then I realized that you know I didn't see myself surrounding you know in a finance career for the rest of my life. And so the way I thought about this was like: Do I see my future self five to ten years down the road hanging out with the same people that I'm hanging out with at that point, surrounded by people and and just communities that I want to be part of? And the answer was no. I actually went to a few meetups in New York City for startups and technology. And like, there's like 1, 2 people that showed up. It was so, it was like, just pretty much like, it was sad. Right. And so I was like, all right, I gotta, I gotta get myself outta here. And so I bought my one-way ticket to San Francisco. Yeah. This is back in—

Which year was this?

2012? 2011. 2011. Yeah. It was actually October 2011. So it's been what, exactly 12 years now?

12 years. Yeah. That's awesome.

Insane. Yeah. So, um, 12 years ago I came here, uh, just one suitcase and I didn't have a place to live and I didn't have a job.

You didn't have family there? You didn't have anybody there?

No family. I just, I just knew one high school friend and one college friend. That was it. Honestly, it felt like, I don't know, this is, this is probably what—

Did you have a job there? Like this, in the city? I didn't have a job.

Didn't have a job.

Wow. Wow. That is a true one-way ticket story. Wow.

One-way ticket story. Yeah. So this is, I feel like that's how a lot of immigrants, like they feel when they first land in a new environment. I mean, obviously it's country, same country, so a little bit different, but still like, I, you know, I didn't know anybody, you know? So for 3 months I was sleeping on the floor of my high school friend's apartment, a small apartment. And I was like, obviously trying to save as much money. So I was eating burritos every single day for like, you know, $7 or something. Um, and I was like going out there and networking my tail off, meeting other, you know, startup business development people. And because I came from finance, like business development was the easier path. I couldn't get into engineering.

Right.

So I was doing a lot of that. And then finally I landed a job. And then after that, I landed, I was able to get an apartment. And so that's the origin story of how everything kind of, you know, started here. I guess I kind of almost started my life over in a way.

And you were— so when you got that job in SF, how old were you?

I was 25, 26, maybe around there.

That must be— you're like 37 now or 36?

37.

37. I'm 35, man. That's— this is— there's something about like, I think people who get to reboot their life in like 20s, You know, I think there is a sense of like depth and I feel a sense of like longevity that you have. You know that you're not doing this on a whim. You know, you have chosen this particular thing. Like I feel the same thing because in 2011, I moved to America in August from India. And I was very— it was a one-way ticket, clearly. I haven't left. You know, I've been— I've went a couple of times to visit, but like it was definitely a one-way ticket. It was not a returning ticket. And Just the same way you were talking about, I came here with a purpose. I think there's a sense of purpose when you do something like that, because I had a decent, like, computer, almost like a computer consulting job in Chennai in India. So I left that and did this. So the purpose is something that I think keeps us. Yeah. But anyway, so tell me, walk us through the inflection point. So this is, you got your first job.

Yeah. And then I worked there for 2 and a half years. And to be honest, I, I had a lot of fun at this first startup. We, I mean, this is during the heydays of startup culture where like free lunches, you, you're like shooting Nerf, Nerf gun, like across the office. Like this is that, those days, right? I think those days are not happening anymore, but yeah, we used to play Nerf basketball after lunch each day. It was just, it was insane. And I actually wrote about, we, we used to test candidates when they joined our team. We used to play Settlers of Catan, the board game, to assess whether or not— Yeah, this is, but honestly it actually worked because, you know, we're in business development, so we had to learn how to negotiate. There's a little bit of negotiation there. And then you also like, you're going to be down at times. It's how you react. And so like, it was actually a pretty good assessment, but it was just, I don't know if that would fly now is, but anyways.

I guess now you would get canceled or something, or you would get canceled and then discrimination. Episode on Silicon Valley now if you did that.

Yeah, exactly. But anyways, so I had a blast there and then the company was starting to not do so well. And so I was actually looking into my next options. And right around that time, actually, the company let me go. And so I didn't have— so I didn't have a job again. But this time around, I kind of knew I wanted to go to this bootcamp for software engineering. And there was one bootcamp in San Francisco that was like pretty strong. It's a strong program. And I actually applied and, um, I actually got— I got denied for that program.

Wow.

And so I was like, okay, that was my plan. Because I was like—

it was a gut punch, wasn't it?

It was a gut punch. And I, I, I remember this. I wrote back to that email and I said, listen, I have to do this program. Like, I have no other option. I'm gonna do this program. What do you need me to do to get into this program? I remember this. And they wrote back and said, okay, well, um, build a few websites, show us that you can, you know, be at least at some level. And so like I spent Probably, I mean, let's think about it. Like I was just let go. I have like basically not a lot of safety net or whatever. Like I had to build myself back up. And so I was like working 24/7 on this like programming. I was like learning how to code and like I built like Hangman online and like, I don't know, it was just a bunch of random projects. I sent it to them and I got in. And so it was crazy because I, you know, I was so thankful that they took me on. I mean, it was a really challenging program, but I mean, this was a huge inflection point because if you think about it, I could have given up at that moment. saying like, oh, I didn't get into this program. I'm just gonna go find another job somewhere else. You know, but I'm like, no, this is what I want. And you're gonna tell me how I'm gonna be able to get into this program. I'll just do whatever it takes, but like, I'm gonna get in. That was the only path forward for me, right?

The level of grit sometimes, right? Like it just really, you know, blows my mind. I think especially, I feel like now, I mean, I'm, you know, I'm like, this reminds me of like, of stories that I had in my 20s, you know, when I had to hustle in the same way. And I'm thinking like, man, I kind of have it easy now. We kind of have it easy now. Like we're worried about dumb, like, Thousands of followers, 2,000 followers or not, like nothing. I remember there was a there was an exam called GRE, right? I don't know if you've heard of it. It's this the way like a lot of immigrants come to America, and I took that exam, and I was at this job which was paying me $200 a month, and the exam was $200. So basically my whole month month salary was the price of the exam, and I got a what I would consider good enough score. But you're coming from India, and India has got a billion people, and Good enough is not good enough, right? You would need like— so I talked to one of my cousins who made it to America through a master's program and she went to UPenn and she said, she looked at my score and she said, this is good to get an admission. But she said, do you want an admission? Do you want an admission plus scholarship? And I was like, damn, because I don't have the money to pay for my university fee, which is $70K, $60K or whatever for master's, 2 years. And I had to retake the exam by waiting 2 months. by paying half the fee, 'cause the fee is $200. I didn't have the money. So I saved $100 each month for 2 months till I get to the point of $200 and then pay that for the GRE exam and to take it. I remember for the 2 months, every single night after my day job, I would come home and study for 4 hours, 5 hours straight. And my English was terrible back then 'cause I grew up in India and like, you know, I didn't have a lot of— I would watch 2 hours of Friends and then I would take 2 hours of tests, like the prep material. And Friends was, you know, the easy way to kind of like laugh and also learn about the language. And finally, the second time around, I got, I think in the state, I got the top 1% score or something.

Nice.

But literally, like, there's no— and then, by the way, the long story short, I got the full scholarship at Vanderbilt. Amazing. Full scholarship. And I don't know how much GRE played a role, but definitely had a factor apart from other things. So it's one of those things where you can actually negotiate with reality if you are willing to just persevere and have the grit. You know, you don't have to accept, right? And which is something that I think we forget now. As I got bigger and like more successful later, I feel like now I just accept reality. I'm like, yeah, whatever. But you can actually renegotiate with it, you know?

That's such a powerful concept that I actually— I never put it in those terms where you can negotiate with life. Like life gives you something that you don't like and then you can say, no, I'm gonna take it back, make this work. Yeah.

Redo it.

Yeah.

Because think about that. Today you got like this mountain of social proof and this amazing success. I feel like that young Su was a more, more bad— I always think about this, by the way. I always think about like in my daily meditations, I always visualize my younger self. And dude, there were so many pitfalls and so many dead ends I run into, ran into. I'm sure you've run into. Yeah. Where I could have given up. I could have just chosen the safe 9-to-5 path and just got like some damn job at Deloitte or some kind of consulting. And that would've been the story. And all of those KPs in all of those versions and all of those dead ends chose to take one step further so that today I can live and I can have this convo with you. How fucking cool is that? That— those KPs are the real badasses. Today I'm just like living off of their— it's kind of like inheriting the throne from your dad, you know? You're like, I'm just the prince, like, my, you know. So I feel the same way about you, the way you're telling me these stories, and like all those Young Soos, those were the versions who were like absolute badass. And I mean, now, I mean, I'm saying, I'm just saying like, you know, just to kind of offer gratitude to the younger versions of ourselves instead of thinking of, man, I could have done something, I could have, you know, something more. So

yeah, no, I totally agree with you. Yeah. And then give me some

more. I want a couple more infection points.

I'll give you a few more here. So remember when I told you earlier that I started my life over because I left finance? Right.

Yes.

It comes back. So I went to this software engineering bootcamp for 3 months, which kicked my butt, but I survived. And a company called Ripple came to recruit at the end of the program. Yeah. And they said, Young Soo, you know, you have an amazing background in trading because you've been working at literally on Wall Street for 2 years. And I said, you're right. Like, I am now a software engineer and I have experience actually trading on the floor on Wall Street, right? As, you know, as a trader on a hedge fund desk, trading desk. Right. And so they saw that and they're like, pretty much like it was an immediate hire. I didn't have any technical tests that I had to pass through. By the way, 2 days before that Ripple interview, KP, I bombed a technical interview with another company and they actually stopped the interview in the middle of the interview and said, hey, we're done. Like, get out of the building. They escorted me outta the building. I'm so— I was supposed to have 4 interviews that day. I was done after the second one. Right. And so, and then I went, so 2 days before this interview at Ripple, I was like, oh my God. It's like, I'm never gonna be able to find a job.

Why?

But, but then for some reason, I mean, sometimes, you know, the, the universe will just, it's easier. Sometimes it's easier to go one way, right? So like the job at Ripple was very, very, it came easy to me because I have, I had this finance background. And, and so I guess the lesson here is that you may think that you're starting over. Let's say someone's working right now at a 9 to 5 at some company and you're like, oh man, like if I give this up, I'm gonna lose all my experiences. Like what am I doing? That is not the case because you still have those experiences and that knowledge. It

can come back.

You can create, like, you can create something out of that later on. It'll come back to you. And so—

It's kind of like what, remember Steve Jobs took the calligraphy lesson one time and then like, you know, Macintosh had these beautiful fonts, like literally like so random, but it's just how it is. Yeah.

It's just how it is. And so, um, the finance background, I thought I had pretty much thrown away, but it actually came back to me and there was a huge ROI on that because now I got a job at Ripple and, um, you know, that company did, did really well. And, and, um, that kind of like, I learned a ton from that and now I was able to start my own company coming outta that. Yeah. Uh, and so there's a lot of lessons to unpack in there.

How long were you at Ripple until you started your own thing? Uh,

a year and a half.

Nice.

Yeah.

So what gave you sort of, I guess, the aha moment or the inflection point to go start your own thing?

Yeah, so I really enjoyed my time at Ripple. In fact, I think the company is fantastic. I just, looking back on it now in hindsight, our team was rolling. I mean, we were like pushing out, you know, it was a small team, like 5 of us, and we were just crushing it. And I was really, really proud of our team and like, you know, we're doing so well. But then the regulations just hit us. And this is back in 2015, very early stages of regulation, which obviously, as you probably know, isn't— it's not even clear at this point, right? The regulations of crypto. But, um,

right.

Yeah. It started hitting us and basically the leadership team said, hey, you guys gotta like stop what you're doing because, because we started moving Actual money around the blockchain. Like we had, we were moving from Mexican pesos into USD, and like that was being done on the blockchain, which is like really crazy because the company hadn't moved any you know real value on the blockchain yet. Like from a commercial use usage perspective, yeah, we can send money. Like I can send money to you, you can send money to me. But there was not like we actually had a service. Like a remittance service that was like willing to use the blockchain, and they're like, "All right, we need to stop here because it's it's it's getting a little hairy." And so like we were blocked from going any further, and literally like we would go in and like we you know we something we we actually went to go see a Pixar movie as a team together because we literally had nothing to do. It was crazy, and I'm someone that I need to be like moving forward. Like I'm very I get really antsy when when I can't move forward. And so I knew at that point that it was time to leave. And so, yeah, that's kind of my inflection point on that one.

And did you— so I guess the first company you started was, was that the e-commerce company?

Yeah. So Urban EDC, and that's, it's like the flashlight pocket knife business. Yeah.

Right. And that you grew all the way to— so give us a sense of like how big that grew and is it still around?

Yeah, it's still around. Last year we did $3.3 million in top line revenue for just that company. So nice. We got a couple different companies in my personal holding company. Yeah.

So that is a big chunk of your portfolio, correct? At least in the personal holding company. It is, yes. And what are some others like the French, the Bulldog?

Yep. French Bulldog business, which by the way is, it's, It's a lot of fun to do because like we get to go on trips with our dogs and like it's all pretty much tax deductible because we take a lot of photos and we get sponsorships for these deals. Like we're staying at a 5-star hotel in Sonoma in a month and that's all free. We just have to provide content. And so—

So what was the, sorry, that business is an Instagram account and a content business, correct? It's a media business.

And we have an e-commerce component as well.

Oh, wow.

So in a way, it's like a creator business with a heavy emphasis on the e-com side.

Right. So that's 2. What's the 3rd? Is there a 3rd or 4th?

The 3rd one is GrowthJet, which is the climate-neutral certified 3rd-party logistics company for other e-commerce brands. And so that came about because we were getting a lot of interest for fulfillment because people hate If you know e-commerce, like, people hate fulfillment. It's the biggest pain point. Yeah. And so, we took it in-house and then people were asking us about fulfillment. And so, we launched with a few private clients and we didn't have a website and we didn't have a name, but we have paying clients. And so, at that point, we're like, all right, let's make this a real thing. So, we launched GrowthJet and just moved into a 39,000-square-foot warehouse. And so, Yeah, that one is going strong. So that was the latest one. And then I guess—

And then of course your current personal brand and the content business, right?

Yes, exactly. So this one, I'm open-minded to see where it goes. It's not really a business, I would say yet, but I see kind of like seeds of what it could be. And that's what's really exciting to me is like with this personal holdco stuff, like I think I'm going to create some products around that. But basically I'm keeping an open mind because I just feel like with this creator game, you never know what's going to come. You know what I mean? Like the opportunities. And so not a business yet, but probably will be the 4th business. Yeah.

Right. I love it. I love the diversity of all these 4. I think the first question that I get when I mention sort of all the things that I do, because I'm kind of like you too, I kind of spread out across the fellowship. And then there's the, which I would consider my version of your personal brand business, which is the content business. And then of course some SaaS businesses and things like that. The first question that I keep getting, which I'm tossing to you is how do you balance all the 4? And, you know, like basically how do you operate like this? You know, don't you think that you should just focus on one and just kind of grow that for 3 decades? I know my answer, but I'm curious to see your answer.

Yeah. So I actually get, I get asked this quite a lot. And so the answer really is you got to build up your team and your team has to just take everything over from you. And so it took me a long time to figure this out because I was actually up until last year, I was still working in the business in a couple of these. So the warehousing business was something that I, you know, I used to go into the warehouse almost every day because I had to like make sure Personnel was good, all that. But now I haven't gone in the warehouse in like a month, and I have a really strong general manager who just takes care of everything for me. I talk to him on Slack every day, but it's not like you know he just asks me questions about different things. Like very, very like you know it's the high level stuff. But like having a GM that you can trust is a game changer. It's a big. It's huge. Yeah. And so that's really been been my secret here, and I. I'll give you one framework that I think about is, um, I call it the I, we, they framework. And so when you first start a company, you're the one kind of like building everything because it's a, you know, it's like a new, it's like having, it's like a baby. It's like your new baby. But then once you grow it, um, you can start getting people in and maybe hiring or maybe start working with a virtual assistant or something, but you want to work with them on it together. Right. And so you, you kind of problem solve together and be like, what works? What doesn't work? And then you graduate into like the they portion of this, which is they are handling it, everything for you. And like all you gotta do is make sure that it's running smoothly, but they're doing all the day-to-day stuff. Right. So it's the I, we, they framework. And I, I apply that to almost every project that I'm, that I have. For example, like my newsletter too now and my podcast, like I have, I have an executive assistant who helps me with a lot of that. And so I don't— Right. Yeah. So it's, it's just, concept of the start.

You're still the editorial, you know, I think you're still the editorial, you know, voice, but I'm sure like a lot of that is, you know, operated by people. I mean, that's something I'm learning too is, and I'm actually really enjoying it where I don't need to be in control to be in control. You know, I'm realizing that there's this, like my team has been giving such great feedback this year about how KP, we love that you're not a micromanager. And I'm shocked because I thought that's just how everybody worked, but apparently the bar is so low. that if you don't micromanage somebody, you're considered like almost like a saint. And I don't micromanage others because I don't like to be micromanaged myself. You know, if you tell me something and want me to do it, I will go do it. You don't need— I don't need you to text me every hour or like give me an update. Like, I'm very high trust, you know, in that sense, which is— I'm learning that it's a thing, and vice versa. So when I recruit, I look for high trust. So I have projects or micro projects that I give during the interview process that are loosely defined. So I understand that they can ask me questions and like, do you operate? And so we have this really funny, you know, company culture where I say anything on a scale of 0 to 10, less than 8, any issue that's less than 8 in terms of seriousness and burning, you know, hair on fire, problem solve yourself. Don't come to me. And I will live with the outcome you bring me. Like, for example, if the outcome is negative or unfavorable, I will live with it. It's fine because you're training, you're learning, right? Anything over eight come to me, right? And so they made this a meme now. And Vela, who's my EA, she made because she DM me on the weekend for something young young and it was about some issue. And I said, "Is this is this less than eight or higher than eight?" And she said, "Well, you know, and maybe." And then she corrected herself and said, "You know what? I can handle this." And so every time we do a team sync, now they have a meme of me. in Chamath's clothes. If you remember, there was a meme where he says, this is below my line. Oh, I get it. And so there was a meme of me in the company where I'm like doing this, saying, this is below my line, don't bring it to me, right? And I think the lesson there to me, and hopefully that resonates with you, is a lot of people don't need this kind of dictatorial leadership that you think they need. You know, human beings, I think, operate at their best and their happiest and brightest if you let them be. You know, they look They need guidance and direction, but real leadership is invisible leadership. I think you know you don't need to be. Yeah. You know no president is at the front of the army, right? But you need to inspire them, give them direction, but you don't need to sit there and do the work for them, right? So I try to. The more I learn about this, I'm like, wow, this is actually a hack. Like I'm surprised not many people are doing this. I mean they are probably, but you just have to let people be and they'll surprise you. I mean they'll. Every once in a while, I think every 20 people I run into, I will have one bad experience. But that's the price you have to pay. You know, you can't always be mistrusting, you know, low trust.

I think you got to give people the benefit of the doubt. And it's got to be based on trust. Everything has to be based on trust. And I mean, I go as far as like my employees, they want, you know, like one of them is trying to create a golf, like a personal brand around golf. And so like, on one hand, I like battle with myself. I was like, do I want him to like really work on this like while working at my company? But then, you know, I'm teaching personal holding company, so I can't fault him for like listening to my podcast episodes and like, you know, trying it himself. And so I encourage it. I'm like, hey, if you need help, any tips or whatever, like you can talk to me anytime. I'm happy to help you with your personal brand also. And so like, if you think about it, what that Sends the messages like, wow, like my boss is willing to like invest his own time into growing something that's not even part of his company.

Right.

And so like, that's actually— he's working like so much and so hard now because of this like level of like trust that just goes beyond the, you know, the working environment. Right?

Absolutely. And that's— I mean, that's another thing I've learned too, is that it's just to like not kind of dictate things for them. Do what's best for them and let them be. It's kind of like what you would do for your kids, you know? Like I have a 2-and-a-half-year-old. toddler. I love him, Neo. And this is the relationship that I want to have with him. One day he's going to be 17, 18. He's going to be too cool for dad. Right. I want him to feel like he has a high trust with me, that he can come to me if he needs any advice or guidance. But I don't want to dictate what major he should do or what, you know, because I've had so much pressure like that, you know. And so I don't want that. You know, I think it's about kind of putting other people's interests, you know, and then hoping that they'll reciprocate. But if they don't, Kind of still offering kindness and moving on, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Okay, I got, I got, um, we got a few, just a few minutes left, so I'm gonna do a rapid-fire round with you. And this is something new I've been trying with our guests. So are you ready?

Let's do it.

It's gonna be a fun one. I got a few questions. Um, all right, let's do this. Okay, first one, favorite cuisine?

Pizza.

I'll accept it because I love pizza too, but otherwise, all right. Uh, favorite book you wish you had read Much sooner.

Anything by Jim Collins. So I know it's kind of a cop-out answer, but his stuff is brilliant and I refer to him all the time. So all of his books by Jim Collins.

Wow. I have to go try one. And these questions, by the way, they get— they're lighter at the beginning, but they get sort of deeper as we speak, as we go through them. Okay. Third one is favorite artist or musician that hypes you up?

This one's going to be a very strange answer for most of your audience, but Um, I listen to K-pop, and so—

Oh!

There's a new group that's— it's, it's gonna sound really weird, but they're all like 14-year-old— like, they're a girl— there's like 5 girls, 14 years old, and they're amazing. They're called NewJeans.

They're crushing it?

And, uh, NewJeans. Yeah, they're, they're crushing it. And, um, I mean, you should ask my wife, but like, I, I sing those songs on karaoke. We went to karaoke and with my friends and, uh, It was embarrassing, but—

There's no shame. I, the other day my wife caught me singing some Taylor Swift and she was like, I didn't realize you were a Taylor Swift fan. I'm like, who isn't a Taylor Swift fan, right? Like, who isn't? Yeah. So that's awesome. Okay. Number 4, what's your favorite project or phase in your career?

Yeah, this one, I think I'd have to say what I'm doing right now, which is, you know, sharing my knowledge with people and inspiring them to go out and do their own. I mean, it's been a lot of fun and You know, I initially, I actually wanted to be anonymous, KP. I wanted to be wealthy but anonymous, but I've changed my viewpoint on that. And now I'm so happy when people message me and say, hey, like, I listened to that episode you did on your podcast and it changed my life. Like people have DM'd me this and I'm like, that's insane. And like, I'm so happy to hear that. So yeah.

I resonate with that so much. I feel the same thing. I used to feel the same way. I'm like, I don't want fame. I don't want this. status. And I realized it's not really a status game or a fame game. I don't ever want to be like Eminem-level famous on the street, right? But I want to be impactful. So I want to be more like Warren Buffett-level impactful. Or take any other example, right? Where it's a sense of respect that you get from people. Oprah, you know, like one of the 3 people in my life that I would love to meet is Oprah. And I don't think it's about fame. It's really about the impact that she's had.

Right. Right.

All right. Number five, how would your parents describe what you do for a living?

I don't. I honestly don't even.

At this point, they probably get. Yeah.

You know, I talk to my parents and they'll be, oh, how's the shipping business going? How's the knife business going? It's like that. And it's it's like it's so weird because I have so many different things that it's I can't even describe. It's just how's now it's just how's business? That's it.

How's business? They're probably just happy that you're happy. I'm curious though. Do they know the podcast side of it? Like, I'm curious, how do they perceive a podcast?

They know about the podcast and I think they listen to it actually. You know, I track the downloads on these charts and like, I mean, South Korea, I mean, who's listening to these types? I don't know. Like, I feel like it's a very niche thing and it's not— I'm speaking English, right? Korea is very like, I don't know. It just feels like I see it sometimes like climbing up the charts. I'm like, oh, like my mom is downloading all those episodes right now.

She's passing around in the WhatsApp group or something.

Yeah. Oh yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Shout out, Mom. My mom, the cutest thing is that she calls what I have a broadcast. And every time she does that, I so want to correct it. I'm like, Mom, that's not a broadcast. It's called a podcast. But I don't because I let it be. It's a reminder of sort of the innocence and where I came from, right? I'm like, wow, it's just, you know, she doesn't know what a podcast is. She thinks I'm on radio or something. Anyway, so if Jeff Bezos calls you and offers you unlimited supply Of one item from Amazon, what would you pick?

I'm going to have to go with pallet wrap on this, which is insane, right? Because I mean, who wants—

What is it? What's a pallet wrap?

It's for the fulfillment business. We have to wrap pallets.

Dude, spoken like a true logistics entrepreneur. Oh my God. Oh my God. That's so funny. That's so funny. Okay. What's your— this is a little deep. What is your definition of success?

Yeah, I ultimately, KP, I think success just means happiness, right? And this is a very, you know, so it means different things to different people. So if, like, for me, I have very ambitious goals. And so I, I mean, I try to be happy, but then, you know, obviously there's next levels that I got to keep achieving. But like, there are other people who are, you know, there's like monks that are happy with like no material possessions. And like, sometimes I'm like jealous. I'm like, wow, I wish I could be built that way where I can just like be so grateful and happy for, you know, just like living.

Yeah.

And so I kind of have to remind myself a lot of that, like, just, hey, like you don't need any of this. Like you can just be happy yourself. And so like, it's a very like deep and philosophical, like question that I have with myself a lot, which is like, like, why am I chasing this? Right. Like what's the point of it? But then like, I don't know, I just feel like Business is a game, and I like to win. So it's

yes. I mean, I feel the same in a way. Like I have a perfect blend of almost fifty fifty. Fifty percent of my friends are ambitious. They're aspiring billionaires, and I feel like I resonate with them. And then the other fifty percent I have from my Buddhist days and like the the some of these you know retreat centers I've been to, they're like just they're just happy and content. And even like the fellowship, there's a couple friends that I have who are very peaceful. Andrew, shout out if he's listening. And I, when I talk to him, you know, he does meditation stuff and I'm like, wow, so peaceful, so calm. And he's just happy being at the beach, like drawing in, you know, on the sand or something. So like my brain's always like switching between, you know, ambition to just contentment, you know? And so it's like, you know, it's just, you got 2 parts of it and I just accepted that that's where I am, you know? I can't change any one or the other, you know? But okay, last one. What is the proudest part of your story? You know, of your career, of your life so far?

So a big shift happened for me when I started thinking about the families that I'm impacting through my own company. And so this is not about me and my wife and our 2 French bulldogs. This is about, you know, the employees that are working They basically have chosen to work for me out of all the other opportunities that they could be doing. And when I think about that, that is really meaningful to me. And the fact that I'm responsible for not only them, but their families' livelihoods, that's heavy. And so I'm really like— grateful and happy to have that kind of impact. And to be honest, like a lot of solopreneurs, you know, they miss out on this. I don't know, it's like they think of managing employees as a pain. And I would say for sure, there's a lot of pain aspects to it. But you know, you're making a real difference in these families' lives. And I feel like there's something to that, you know? So.

Yeah, I agree. I'm in the same camp too, which is funny because I feel like we've said a lot of things that I agree with, you know, especially this one. I'm on the camp of like building a, you know, team and kind of really impacting them and helping them. 'Cause I don't, you know, I don't think of them as sort of a burden. And I think some of this is a personality thing maybe, you know, 'cause I always sort of resonate with people and things like that. And like, yeah, so I couldn't agree more. Like, I don't think I would ever be a, could never be a solopreneur forever, you know? Yeah. It's just not, not my jam at all. Thank you so much for being here, man. It's been such a pleasure. The 55 minutes of official recording went by so quick. I appreciate you a lot. Thanks for that authentic energy you put out on Twitter and today. Where can people find you on the internet?

Yeah, so my podcast is at firstclassfounders.com, and you can just search First Class Founders on Apple or Spotify or whatever. Do a lot of deep dives on my business philosophy and all sorts of stuff there. I'm also Pretty active on Twitter also, as KP mentioned. So I'm at Yong Soo Chung. That's Y O N G S O O C H U N G. And I'm pretty active in DMs also. So if you feel inspired by my story here, then just shoot me a DM. You know, I'd be happy to talk to you. So

that's awesome. I'm going to include all of these in the show notes. And once again, thank you so much for being here and can't wait to continue our friendship and keep rooting, you know, for you.

Thanks, KP, man. This is This was a blast and I'm, I'm so glad that we connected on this deeper level today. So thank you.

Me too. Thank you. All right. And that's a wrap.