The Masters And Disasters In Relationship Communication (feat. John Weiman)

Hello everybody, I'm KP and welcome to yet another episode of the Building Public Podcast. Today I am super, super thrilled and jazzed to have John Wyman joining us from Baltimore. I want to give about a minute or 2 of my, my standard hype intro for John. John's been called the Miracle Man. John served more than 4,000 couples in in their marriage counseling, in the professional setting, in helping them as a counselor, as a coach, as a relationship advisor. He's been doing this for decades. And today I wanted to bring him on the show because I feel like there's the one topic that I think entrepreneurs overall around the world don't invest time, energy, and effort in as much is in taking care of the health of their relationships. Especially with their spouse. I mean, we track everything from sleep on the Oura Ring to the, um, you know, the daily metrics on the Apple Health, uh, you know, uh, Apple Health, you know, Apple Watch. And we have like mattresses that cool one side and give us heat on the other side and all these crazy tech gadgets. But I frankly feel a lot of my friends and family members could really benefit from some lightweight counseling. And My wife and I went through multiple rounds of this, and I couldn't tell you how much it benefited. I couldn't tell you exactly how much it benefited us as a couple. So without further ado, John, thank you first for helping our marriage and helping my relationships personally. And secondly, thank you for being on the show.

Absolutely, KT. Absolutely. I'm thrilled to be here. I love this.

I wanna start with the big why question, which is, what was your why? You know, when you look at your career span out, you know, and look at it from the decades point of view, what do you believe was the real why that drove you into this field and into serving nearly 3,000 couples?

Great question. I like to call it Ed Sheeran it, think out loud about it.

Yeah.

I, going through college, and I worked as a recreational therapist in a long-term psychiatric hospital. I worked with literally one of the best in the world, a guy by the name of Dr. James Masterson. I would like to tell you I got that job by being really smart. Had nothing to do with it. My mom, who's a therapist and also the, like, 3rd Nike poster ever, I was talking to her one day about this, you know, this real famous guy coming to teach at the hospital. And she said, oh, you know him. I'm like, Mom, I'm going to school full-time, working full-time, working part-time, and I'm engaged. I'm not hitting the books like I should. She goes, no, you know him. I'm like, no, I don't. She said, who's your best friend in elementary school? Like, Mom, don't change the subject. Come on, tell me who this is. She said, no, answer my question. And I said, it was Jimmy. We played together every day. And she said, that's his father.

Oh.

So, you never think about in elementary school, what's your dad do for a living? And the next day, I walked into our first conference and he recognized me and said, John, let's get a cup of coffee after. And I was like, sure. And he said, how'd you like to intern for me? I'm like, absolutely. And, you know, in connections with my mom, I guess the why is, and it took me a long time to realize this, my mom said, you know, John, you have a gift. And I'm like, what are you talking about? She said, you see people. And one of the founding principles of my practice is I tell You know, one of them to hear it through your partner's eyes, not through yours. That is true listening. How does your partner see this and understand it? So, the why is also understanding. My parents went through a very painful divorce. Hmm. 5 years, over $500,000 in legal fees. In the '70s. Wow. And ironically, I kept that all quiet. I didn't tell my best friends. So fast forward to, you know, I'm remarried. I was married for 14 years originally. And during my divorce process, I repeated history.

Wow.

I kept it a secret for 5 years. So the why was really, there's a phase of life called separation individuation. And how do we individuate into, you know, the people we are today where a lot of us are products of our own upbringing?

Hmm.

And how, and when we have 2 people together, those 2 products can cause conflict. And how do we individuate into a couple? So, the why is to help that process of connection. I think it's huge. It's probably the most important area.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think, you know, the impacts of having a healthy and strong and nurturing and nourishing relationship at home is massively underrated. We don't talk about it enough. We just brush it off, especially in the business world, right?

Mm-hmm.

Where we just say, oh yeah, you know, how's, how's, you know, the wife or how's the husband? How's things at work, at home? And I genuinely think that when you have a really thriving relationship at home, you just really perform way better than you could have imagined at work. And this was not super obvious until I saw it for myself. You know, a lot of the last 3, 4 years has been because I've been so happy and I've been so filled with joy. And I feel like I genuinely get it when I hear the words, um, be on the same team as your spouse. I thought it was some bogus, cheesy thing, like Instagram quote, but I genuinely get it. But it took some work to get there. So back to you, from your experience, have you seen the discrepancy around the— or the— not the discrepancy. I feel like— I think what I was gonna go for was How have you seen your clients either benefit from having thrive relationships or even suffer indirectly or invisibly at work due to, you know, things not really thriving at home?

You know, that's a great question. You know, I see that the two are combined. Suffering at work affects home. Suffering at home affects work. And, you know, how the couple deals with that is, you know, my experience is very simple. Couples come to me because they actually want to be together. They want to be. And they're not. And as to why they're not is what we need to figure out, and we need to get them together. And It's, you know, it's so interesting to watch when couples are able to connect and be together. Things such as alcohol abuse mysteriously go away because they're connected in, you know, the criticism-defense type of thing. They're connecting. Their friendship gets stronger, which makes their friendships stronger at work. In the Gottman world, research tells us the man lives an actual— actually an average of 3 years longer, the better the quality of the friendship is in the marriage. And that just, you know, expands outward into their jobs. Same things happen. It's fascinating. I mean, I have been, you know, very honestly, just thrilled to see your success.

It

is, um,

it is completely my credit, right? Just kidding.

I, you know, I, I mean, every, every post of yours on LinkedIn, I celebrate. I'm like, he's doing it, he's doing it. They're good. Every— and correct me if I'm wrong, like on Instagram, every picture of you and your son, I'm like, yes, that's great.

So we couldn't have been happier. I'm not kidding. And I thought, I thought I already knew what happiness meant when I first met you. When, you know, you and I first met you, But that's— that was just baseline. And I'm realizing that, um, you know, when you do the work, you remove a lot of these artificial constraints you have on the cap, the ceiling of how happy you could be. And it's a lifelong journey. And I'm like, the more time I spend with Devin, the more time I spend with my son, I'm slowly like sort of elevating that, raising that ceiling. And I'm like, wow, this is wild. I think Back to the part about growing up, back to the part about upbringing, which is a big portion of your work with couples and even with us, you've done that. I really didn't think that I was this lovable. And I'm saying this on air in public. Like, I never thought that I was this lovable by another human being, which is one of the biggest shocks. It's hard for me to accept it. So I try to push away when somebody tries to tell me, earnestly that they love me, or they— and I try to think like, do you love me because of my achievements? And especially with the relationships, like especially with my relationship with Devin, like she actually loves me for who I am, not for the achievements, not for the resume, not for the LinkedIn, not for the podcast, which is very hard for me to accept because I thought I was unlovable if I didn't achieve something cool.

Mm-hmm.

So, that led to so many other, you know, friction points. And, you know, you know all the stories. But, it's a— I think a lot of your childhood really plays a big role. So, I'm curious, what other elements do you think play a big role in thriving couples versus couples that are struggling?

The number one thing you can do for your marriage Is honor your partner's dream. Um, and you know, I have to say, your wife is spectacular. Um, my, my experience in that, very honestly, is when I ask the woman what's the man's dream, typically she knows and does a pretty good job honoring it. When I go to the man and I ask the man what's the woman's dream, He doesn't know. And so I go to the woman and I say, hey, what's your dream? And I've heard this response hundreds of times. John, give me a break. I gave that up years ago. I don't have one.

Wow.

And honoring the dream, if you listen just out in your general world, how often you hear the word dream? It's said every day. Every day and honoring the dream. You know, I'll tell you the story of Sherry and I. I started my practice in her house. We were dating and I started in her house and I was like, you know, she said, you can have couples come in my house. And I'm like, why would you do that? And she said, you said it was your dream. I want you to have your dream. And, you know, that was years ago and now we're here where we are. And The dream is so important. The other part that prevents connection, I guess, and couples getting along is there's something called perpetual conflict.

Tell us more about that.

That's fascinating. The majority of fights are perpetual conflict. And what perpetual conflict is, is the history of your position long before you two ever met each other. So, naturally, you both think you're right. So, how do you— I'll be a little controversial. I don't like the word compromise.

Hmm.

I like to say, what are you willing to bring to the table? And I'll never forget, and this is why I don't like the word compromise. I had this couple, 35 years old, and I've learned in my practice, everyone has a dream, everyone has a story. If you mess with either one of them, you end up talking to me. So I go to her and she says, you know, John, he's crazy. When we go to the movies, he's got to be in his seat with his soda, his popcorn, half an hour before the lights even turn on. He's nuts. And he says, well, maybe if you didn't put on those 5 outfits before we went places, we'd be on time. So, I wanted to learn the story. And I went to her and I said, so, you put on those 5 outfits, you do that? She goes, yeah, he's right. I definitely do that. 35 years old. I said, how long you been doing that? And she said, since she was 5 years old.

Hmm.

She's not going to compromise to 3. That's not going to happen. So, I go to him and I say, you like to be early. What's going on there? And he said, well, I grew up the son of a pastor, and when we had 12 o'clock church, we had to be there at 9 AM to help my dad set up. And then after that, I went into the military, and I've been early my whole life.

Which makes sense, right?

Yeah. Absolutely. And they both looked at each other like, oh my God. And she brought something to the table. She says, look, I don't care what time the movie is, dinner reservations, any of that. All I care about is what time you want me in the car and for you not to give me shit when I'm getting ready. He says, okay, I can do that. I really appreciate your commitment to the car time. I won't give you shit. And I'll even ease up on the time as that's happening. So they both brought something to the table. The compromise of, okay, I will put on 3 outfits, that's not going to be lasting. So, perpetual conflict, again, the majority of it, I believe it's 67% of fights are perpetual.

Wow.

And in perpetual conflict, I like to use the word submit to understanding. And people struggle with that. And what I mean, it does not mean agree or disagree. I just want one person to submit to understanding because it actually can lead to connection. For example, I'll do it the wrong way, then I'll do it the right way. Who's your team?

The Golden State Warriors.

They suck. They suck. All right. I just listened to reply. I didn't— all right. So we'll ask again. Who's your team? I'd say the same thing.

Oh yeah, Golden State Warriors.

Oh yeah, why do you like them?

Yeah, just because I love Steph Curry and he brings, you know, a certain kind of joy to the table.

Oh, okay, he brings joy. Oh wow, I never knew that. How does he bring joy? I don't understand that. How does he bring joy?

It's because he doesn't feel like he plays to win, he plays to play. Like, there's a sense of like joy, childlike joy that he exhibits. on the court, which is very contagious. And I think my personality is similar, so I feel a resonance there.

You know, I've seen those pictures of you and your kids, and yeah, there is that. There's so much play that's going on there. So I can understand, you know, I can understand that. That's really interesting. So look what happened. Now I learn I will never be a Warriors fan. I actually do like them, but You know, I have a much greater understanding. Does that make sense?

It's fascinating. I think, you know, anytime there's friction, if you uncover a little bit, you know, with a neutral eye, there's always an understanding deficit, you know, from one side to the other is what I'm hearing from you. And you— and the depth of the understanding, and then no matter how deep you go, it doesn't have— it doesn't mean you're trying to be persuaded or trying to change your mind, change your opinion. You're just learning to hold a very strong but different opinion in your head, you know, which is something that I had to work hard on. Um, and, you know, I think both, especially David and I, both of us are like very stubborn characters. Um, I seem a lot more, uh, uh, not stubborn, I think, but I'm actually very stubborn in my positions. Uh, the perpetual conflict, like you said. But what has worked really well, to your point, to your credit, is the fact that I— when I'm listening, I'm learning to realize that I don't need to really agree on that way of life, but I need to understand why and how that came about so that I just can hold that as a second opinion in my brain, which is, which is, you know, really, really hard in the beginning, you know, because you feel like you're being invalidated when you hold somebody else's opinion in your brain.

Exactly, exactly.

That doesn't have to be true,

right? Right. I mean, a question for

you, John. How do you maintain neutrality? Because one of that— that must be hard given you're a human being too, and you bring— you're, you're like pulled into a, uh, an argument or a contentious position where one side says A is right, the other side says B is right, and you may have a personal leaning towards A, for example. But how do you stay neutral, and how do you sort of still Like, be respected by both sides?

Okay. That's actually very easy. People struggle initially to see this, but there is a science to what makes it work. The Gottman Institute, where I got my training from, they're all data-based. For example, there's 4 behaviors that predict divorce at a rate of 94%. Oh. Criticism, defense, contempt, and stonewalling, which 85% of men just shut down. We don't have the data on women, but we just shut down. We've learned that's physiological. But, um, all I look for when I'm with a couple, whether I agree or not doesn't matter. If I'm hearing criticism, I'm going to confront it. If I'm hearing defensiveness, I'm going to confront it. And in the simplest context, with criticism, the key words are, Say it in a way your partner can hear it. And in defensiveness, it's taking some responsibility. Now, if I say to you, and there's masters and disasters, and I'll give you both. If I say to you, you know, KP, you never do the dishes. And you say, John, that's critical. KP, I'm sorry. You're right. You're right. That is. Let me back up a second. You know, KP, when you do the dishes, I really appreciate it and it makes me feel like we're a team, we're in it together, and it makes me want to be a better partner for you. I'm saying the same thing, you know, and you would say, take some responsibility. You know, John, you've mentioned the dishes a few times. I haven't done it. I got to do a better job. And And I can, you know, I'll give you a live one. My wife, and very honestly, and to be controversial, everything I learned, I don't believe. I think it's complete bullshit. If I want to be critical, I should be critical. And my wife and I ended up in therapy because she was late all the time. And that was— that session should have been filmed. But anyway, One day she's late and I'm pacing back and forth and I just want to just criticize the hell out of her when she comes walking in the door. You're always late. You never do what you say you're going to do. You always have excuses. And I'm having a battle with myself and I say, John, you're such a hypocrite. You always tell couples to say it in a way it can't be hurt.

Mm-hmm.

You know, it can be hurt and you don't do it. I'm like, I'm going to try this. And she comes walking through the door and I say, honey, you know, when you come home on time, I don't worry that you got hurt at work. I don't worry that you got into a car accident on the way home because with my health issues, which, you know, you know, I don't know how I'd live without you. So I really worry when you're late. Sherri was perfect. She says, I know I'm late. I get distracted. I'm sorry. I didn't, you know, realize you worried like that. How about I text you when I'm on my way home? You know I'll be home in 25 minutes.

Nice.

I was like, that'd be great. KP, that fight was every day 10 years ago. Do you want me to send you the text? that's going to come today or do you want to see the one from yesterday that says, on my way home? We don't have that fight. So, the key is saying it in a way it can be heard. If I say to you, you never do the dishes, you say, John, that's critical. I say, you know it's not, KP. It's fact. You never do them. We'll be arguing all night long.

All night long. Yeah. For years. Yeah. I think it's also the other thing. Um, that I've been warming up to is this concept of love language, right? And I want to hear— I don't know, I can't remember if, if it was you, you touched on that briefly with us, or it was something that I discovered online or somewhere. But the, the everybody having a different love language that they respond really quickly to.

Yes.

And when you say the phrase in a way that your partner, um, hears it

Can hear it.

Can hear it. The thing that comes to mind is a love language, 'cause they— love languages are basically, you know, quicker ways to be heard or feel seen and heard and all that. For me, that is positive reinforcement. I'm a sucker for that shit. I'm such a sucker. I'm like Pavlov's— like, I was the dog that was in the experiment. So what Devin's been doing is when she wants me to do the dishes, she took this page from you, I think, and she's crushing this playbook. her do it. Like, I could see her manipulate me, and yet I'm falling for that. Which is, instead of coming home and just looking at the dishes and saying, ah, you haven't done it today, or you've— you never— you're not using the words never and always, all that. What she's doing is holding her breath and waiting for me to do it on a random day. Right. And she comes to me and holds my hand or pats me on the back or something and says, it makes me feel so loved when you do these dishes. And you know, I know it takes like 30 minutes for you or 20 minutes for you. It just makes me feel like you're such a loving, caring, empathetic person, and you're so amazing for that. Sucker, sucker, sucker. Hundreds of days, my hands are in the dishes. I'm like doing this nonstop now, right? And I'm like, oh my God, she's manipulating me. But it's working, you know? And I respond really well with words of affirmation. So, which is, by the way, something which is becoming very, very apparent when we are raising Neil, that kids respond really well for positive reinforcement as opposed to negative, like fear-based.

Absolutely.

So, you know, I think that's the— so she's just saying, she's always joking, we're always thinking about you and we're always joking about you. It's like, you know, I'm just like, you know, I'm just using John's playbook and making sure that, you know, you do all the housework. And I'm like, ah. And vice versa, to give the counterexample, her love language, which took me a lot of time to understand, is small acts of kindness through physical— I forgot the right term for this, but like physically showing that you care through small acts of kind— like the chores and little things like that. Mm-hmm. Basically removing anything that's— her plate's always full, so removing any small parts of it that I can. in the manual way. Yes. Like the little things, like making sure the garage door is closed, making sure that, you know, I check all the doors downstairs, which is like small things, right? She thinks I'm like Superman.

Yes.

And it takes me literally 5 minutes to do that shit. I'm like, what? This is easy. And for the dishes, I put on a podcast and I love podcasting, as you know, like, and I'll get into stuff, whatever. And 20 minutes go by like that for me.

Yeah.

And I don't feel the gunk of the thing impacting me or whatever. I just don't care. I'm a man. I don't care. I just like wash. You know, I just don't. And when I do that, noticing how it impacts her has been so fascinating.

Oh, absolutely.

It's like I bought a whole bouquet of flowers. Yeah, yeah. She doesn't care for what I'm saying, right? And so knowing what your partner's love language, I think, is such a big factor.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Definitely. Gottman uses— they call it— use the term love maps. Love maps are things we do for our—

Yes, I think that's the one you mentioned. Can you tell us more? Because I want the audience to get a sense of it.

Love maps are things we do for our partner that make them feel loved. I one time asked my wife, what do I do that hits your map? And I literally laughed at her answer. She said, well, the last thing you do before we go to bed is you fill the coffee maker up with water. I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. That makes you feel loved? And she said, yeah. And I submitted to understanding. I was like, why? And she said, well, when I come down in the morning and I see that coffee waiting for me, that makes me think that you think of me. And when you do things that show me you think of me, I feel like you love me. By contrast, like, she goes, you know, she goes to the grocery store. She never asks me what I want. She looks in the refrigerator and goes, this, this, this, Johnny wants that. She one time came home with this piña colada flavored lollipop and said, did that hit your map? And I'm like, no, no, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. But no, that doesn't hit my map. It hits your map. And so, I've learned, like, literally, I know that, you know, like, if I go to the grocery store, I look, I know the types of juice she likes, the apples she likes, the cheese she likes. You know, I know that she likes, we have what's called rituals of connection. She loves yogurt time. It's a little time we spend every night that hits her map. So, and I'll encourage the lazy people out there. You can try twice as hard to love your partner and be nowhere near their map. Right? And they'll feel half as loved.

Yeah.

Or you could try half as hard but hit the core of their map and they will feel twice as loved. They'll be like, he gets me, he gets me. You know, and it's so important to understand.

Do you want to give us, give the audience maybe an exercise they could do with discovering, identifying the love maps for each other?

Well, okay. One of the things that makes marriage and relationships work is called rituals of connection. The average couple spends 35 minutes a week talking about their relationship, 5 minutes a day. So rituals of connection, my wife and I have something called yogurt time. Every night we share yogurt and we talk for 10 or 15 minutes. You know, we could talk about maps casually. I mean, as I look at it, yeah, we're talking about maps or, you know, we're doing that type of stuff. We're understanding where we're coming from. Last night, our yogurt time, we talked about you, which was, you know, is really good. And, you know, she— She turned toward my bids and, you know, there was connection on that. And the, probably the most important thing is, again, sitting down and understanding what the map looks like. I'll remind you, when my wife said filling the coffee maker, I laughed. But then I understood these conversations should be conversations. Not fights.

Hmm.

Not— well, filling the coffee maker is stupid. That's just— no, that's not love. That's not love at all. And on that one exercise, and I'm breaking a golden rule for you, KP, I asked 4 questions in the initial session. The second question I asked the woman first, the fourth question I asked the man first. And the second question is growing up the way you did, mom and dad together or not, doesn't matter. It's kind of like watching Netflix of how you think a relationship, a marriage is supposed to be. And we all bring something from that that negatively affects your relationship.

Yeah.

I don't need to hear about Mom and Dad, I need you to own it. What did you bring that negatively affects it? And both people have to answer. It's a very interesting question. And it'll be like, well, I brought criticism. All right, good. Okay, you're halfway there. How does that negatively affect the relationship? Not he gets all upset, he gets mad. What does criticism do to the relationship? Well, it creates conflict, it creates distance, you know, it, it breaks down the marriage. So you're not putting it on the other person. The marriage, the relationship is its own entity.

Yeah.

So that's, you know, that's a very important question. And then the tough question for the man goes first is I ask them to define love.

Wow.

And, you know, well, KP, we'll just go ahead, define love.

No, no, don't try this on me. I think I'm like, oh, wow. Well, I was just gonna— I was— no, I was just gonna comment that I can't wait to hear a man define love in the not, not, um, goofy way.

Well, here, here's the point on that though. I don't care how they define it. They can define it and it sounds great. And then I go to the woman and let's just say you said it's unconditional acceptance, Spending time together and laughing and joking or whatever. Then I go to the woman, I say, okay, you heard his definition. Based on his definition and only what he just said, do you feel he loves you?

Damn, that's a—

I've never had a couple where both of them say yes.

Wow.

You don't live up to it. And so I say, all right, well, KP, I didn't define it. Your wife didn't define it, you did. And she said, no, KP doesn't do that, you know, in that case. So it really—

It's our own blind spots in this.

Exactly, exactly. So I would encourage couples to look at that. It's really fascinating.

I love— I mean, it feels like it's one of those things where it's, it's a universe on its own. Like, the deeper you go into this, the more enlightened you become about, you know, um, the roles— the role and the power of having a strong relationship. And then you just want to keep investing in it. I, I— when you first told us about this whole viewing relationship as an entity, I never heard about it until then, and I never even thought about it until then like that. But the image that came to my mind was a garden, and that both of us have to tend to the garden, water the garden, and take out the weeds and put in the work. Like, you can't just magically— like, I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions I had, uh, the 20s, the KPN 20s versus KPN 30s, is that in 20s I just thought that you just have to have chemistry and romance and like, boom, that's it. Like, it's honeymoon, right? Honeymoon-like. And that is a phase we all go through, which is great. I'm, you know, I'm sure everybody has a version of that, but then Then comes the work for the rest of your life. So, you better make it fun. Better make it a collaborative thing. So, I got a question.

Sure.

Jumping topics, going back to something you briefly touched on, I want you to double-click on is something that you have said a couple of times with us, which is honoring your bids.

Bids for connection.

Bids for connection. Okay. So, tell us more on that. What does that mean? I'll

give you the textbook example. Then, I'll give you an example From my relationship, you'll make fun of me and then I'll tell you what the research says. So, we make 10, 15 bids for connection a day. They're subtle and they're blatant. There's 3 things that can happen when we make a bid. We can turn toward it, away from it, or against it. So, my wife and I are watching TV and this is a textbook example. And she sees a nice boat going by and she says, wow, nice boat. She's not saying that to hear herself speak. She wants me to look at the boat. It's a very subtle bid, but it's a bid. So all I have to do to turn toward the bid is look out the window and go, yeah, I see it. I don't even have to say it's nice. Yeah, I see it. That's it. Right? That's plenty. And then turning away is nice boat out there. And I'm buried in Facebook. I could care less. And then the last one turning against is Nice boat out there. And I get angry with her because I'm trying to read a work email and I don't need to look at that stupid boat. So the live example, my wife says to me one day, ever since I was a little girl, I always wanted to go to Niagara Falls. All her life she wants to go there, picks me to say this to. My answer? Eh, went there as a kid, nothing special. And walked away from her, walked up the stairs. I passed her, seeing her shoulders shrug a little bit. I got to the top of the stairs. I was like, oh, I turned away. I came down and said, of course, we'll go. Here's what the research says. And we have to realize no one has a calculator. But couples who turn toward each other's bids 86% of the time are very happy.

Wow.

Couples who turn toward each other's bids only 33% of the time, Divorce. And the reason they do is in the marriage, there's an emotional bank account. And if there's $100 and you have $50 and I have $50, and I, you know, I'm turning toward all your bids, KP, and I say to you one day, hey KP, we should go to Mars. You're gonna say, yeah, John, let's go. You're gonna put money back in my account. Now, if you're turning toward all my bids and I'm not turning towards yours, your money is getting depleted. And I say, hey, KP, there's a great game on tonight. We should watch it. You're going to say, watch it yourself. I don't, you know, I got other stuff to do. You don't have the money, the emotional money to put in that account. And, you know, what happens in relationships is we recognize our own bids. It's very hard to recognize our partners. We have to be tuned into them.

Yeah.

So it's, it's important. It's— and most couples I see when I ask them, how often do you think you turn toward each other's bids? The highest I hear people go is 50%.

Wow.

And I'm like, you realize that's closer to 33 than 86.

It's closer to 33 more than 86. Oh yeah. And

And in short, that's why they're here, that both of them are recognizing their own bids and they're saying they never want to do it again. They actually want to be together and they're not. So, bids for connection is huge.

If someone were to strengthen the relationships they have and to sort of invest more time and energy and kind of to nourish the garden, right? what should they be doing, right? I genuinely, after spending time with you, first of all, I was very skeptical and hesitant about like this because this feels still stigmatized in our culture and society, right? It's like you feel like you're a broken toy and you're— that's the reason why you're going to the, you know, repair. You're almost like the repair shop, Joel. Just kidding. But I, after spending, you know, a lot of time with you and over the years, I've realized that every couple deserves a John, you know, and it's not because their marriage is on the rocks or it's because they're having insanely hard— we didn't have insanely hard challenges, you know. We just came because we couldn't figure out a couple of things. But every couple, I think, deserves to spend time on the relationship, not just in the relationship, you know. And I don't think most people do that.

No.

And so, what is your message to them? So, one is how would you encourage them to think about this whole topic? And number 2 is what are some resources? What should they do if they need your services? They'll come to you, of course, but like what are some other things they could do without getting there?

Well, you know, one of the things to keep in mind is it takes 6 years of a problem. To pick up the phone and make the call.

Oh, wow.

So, and most couples I see, oh, John, it's been longer than 6. That part's, you know, and the preventative aspect of this, I had a mentor of mine once said, you know, John, marriage should be like presidential elections. And I'm like, Dr. Mejia, that's terrible. That's terrible. Marriage commitment for life. And he said, no, John, think about it. If you were up for reelection right now, do you think you'd get your wife's vote? And if you weren't sure, what would you be willing to do? Or would you choose not to run again? And the point is, is that there should always be work done. And the, you know, again, keeping in mind that 35 minutes. a week, magically, if you made it an hour, things are substantially better. Yeah. You know, the turning toward bids is huge. I mean, the one thing, and I'll vent to you, and it's why I'm in the corporate world now as well, is, you know, KP, if you worked for whatever company, And you had to go see your cardiologist, your boss would say, oh, KP, you all right? You go, go take the time you need. Call me after. Let me know.

Right.

Now, hey, boss, I'm having problems in my marriage. Oh, no, you do that on your own time. It's unfortunate, but in my practice, evening is prime time. Because, you know, companies and they don't— I'll never forget, I had a law firm. The guy's name was on the building.

Wow. He must be a partner or something.

Yeah, he was a partner. He was a big partner. And because of work, he was turning away from all the bids, all that. They weren't spending any time together. His wife went out and bought a house And moved out. He ended up in a psychiatric hospital for 30 days and got discharged to me. And, you know, we're talking one day and I'm like, you know, I'm kind of curious, how much did divorce cost your firm? He said, oh God, John, this year we have 3 partners going through divorce. It cost us over $2 million in billings. Wow. Wow. Time lost. So, you know, the relationship has to be a priority. You know, and I'll say in terms of, and it may sound kind of cruel to say, but the bottom line is your parents and your children leave you. Your parents pass away, your children move away.

Mm-hmm.

So the relationship has to be the most important thing going on. So in terms of doing the work, you have to be able to make sure those rituals of connection, make sure you're honoring dreams, make sure you're turning toward bids, you know, just make sure and hitting MAPs. Um, you know, it's, it's so important and really understanding where Your partner's coming from and seeing what you can do. So, um,

you, you had a, um, you had a piece that you shared with me on the phone the other day about, um, how there's an opportunity for, uh, companies and businesses to really, um, boost productivity among their employees in a novel angle, which is, which is through Offering a safe space and a particular, I guess, initiative or two to talk about these things. So what would that look like? And if you let's say you were talking to a potential business on this side. Yeah, yeah.

I'm working with a Facebook executive.

Nice.

And I tell him about this. He's like, John. Oh my! Yes. We definitely want this. And what I do is a 3-hour Zoom for their employees, an hour of what makes it work, an hour of what breaks it, and an hour to answer any questions. And this is the company's way of saying, we not only care about you here, we care about you at home because there is a strong correlation between job performance and marriage performance, marital satisfaction. Both of them connect and companies have to do a better job of, you know, everyone I talk to goes, wow, yeah, yeah. So, it's, and companies need to really look at that. It's really looking at like what, you know, what's going on. I mean, if you look at lateness, alcohol, drug abuse. A lot of this stuff is because of conflict in the home. And it's causing just so much money. And they can say, well, yeah, we offer an EAP program or whatever. You know, some employees take advantage of it. Some don't. As to why, I will say I'm not the best businessman, KP.

Yeah.

The most important thing I believe in this process. If you both don't, you and your spouse both don't feel comfortable with who you're talking to, you're wasting your time and your money. Yeah. If you remember with you, I talked to you for 45 minutes, an hour first, and Devin, the same thing. It's you both have to say, yeah, this is the person for us. Most people in my profession, They don't even talk to the couple. They'll have someone else answer the phone. And one of the things I am known for nationally in the entrepreneur side for you, I can do it, but I don't believe in the hour model, meaning, oh, KP, you're saying something important right now. I need your credit card. Time's up. Sorry.

Right. Sorry. 15 minutes up, right?

Yeah. That's it. I charge per session, not per hour. And what that means is—

You've gone 3 hours or so sometimes.

The record's 5 hours, 15 minutes. And between sessions, you both have open access to call me anytime you want.

Yeah,

it's 3 o'clock here my time. I haven't had a session yet today.

Yeah,

I've been on the phone since quarter of 8. I just received 2 phone calls from people I got to call back. So It's brilliant.

I think that strategy is very novel, right? I mean, we talked about it. It only works— I also think though, objectively, that it only works if the person running that strategy is in it for the right reasons. And there has to be a genuine sense of care and a spirit of service, which I think you have.

Thank you.

And I love that about you, John. And that's why it was so easy to talk to you. It was so easy. I can, I can, I understand why the 3,000 couples, you know, many of them give you 5-star reviews and wanna, you know, the, the work you're doing is profound beyond any of the tech stuff if you think about it, because you're literally saving homes, marriages, families, you know, little kids like Neil. It's just mind-blowing to me, right? The impact, um, that, that, you know, great marriages can have. So I just want to say on that note, I want to say appreciate all that you've done for us, all that you're doing for America, all the couples, all the, uh, all your clients. And, um, is there a— give us this quick pitch on where, where can people find you? And then I want to ask you one last question. Where can people find you online?

Okay, um, LinkedIn, John Weiman, J-O-H-N W-E-I-M-A-N. My website is lifebridgecoaching.com. Instagram, it's life underscore bridge underscore coaching underscore. My phone number is 410-419-8149. I work literally all over the world. I don't want to make you jealous, KP, but tomorrow I have a podcast I'm doing in Australia.

Wow, that's nice.

So

I'm happy for you and I'm sorry for them. But I'm just kidding.

They don't know yet.

They don't know what they're getting. Just kidding.

That's right.

I, I just, you know, love, love your energy, love who you are, John.

Thank you.

Um, the last question I wanted to leave everybody thinking about is, um, the, the question that I love, which is, you know, what's a piece of advice that you would give to your younger self, especially maybe someone who is, let's say, 10, 15 years, you know, your version of you who were— who was 15 years ago, what's a piece of advice you would give from today's vantage point?

Best piece of advice I would give is you have to be your authentic self. Um, I, I learned that, that, um, well, in my first marriage, I was not my authentic self. Um, when I started my practice, I was a suit and tie guy. And one day I was like, this isn't me.

I can't imagine you, by the way, with the suit and tie. Not cursing. Just kidding.

I mean, no, it's funny. I'll never forget, I dealt with this couple out in Hollywood that are on television. And the wife, you know, we signed on, the husband goes, who the hell is this guy? He's wearing a t-shirt. And she goes, no, I checked him out. I checked him out. But, you know, honestly, being your authentic self, because, I mean, who does your partner really love? Do they love you or this person that you're trying to portray for whatever reason? I mean, there was a lot of— in my first marriage, my not authentic self was just don't be like your dad. Just don't be like your dad. And I wasn't. And I learned she didn't love me. She loved the lie, the image I was trying to present. So, the best thing I can tell, the best thing I would say to anyone is, you know, be your authentic self. There are some things we can change. We can adapt to the science of what makes relationship work. We can do that. But we have to be our authentic selves. And then we know our partner loves us. And you have You know, you've learned that with Devin. She, you know, she loves you.

Sometimes it's hard to believe that, frankly. That's, that's the work that I gotta do on my own. Maybe do, let's do solo sessions. 'Cause I'm like, sometimes I'm like really baffled. Um, I mean, it sounds so dumb to say that out loud, but I'm genuinely, I sit with her and I ask her like, um, what part of me do you love? And I know that when she says things like, I don't care about your achievements, I don't care about any of those accolades and all these podcast downloads and any of this. I just love you for who you are really deep down. And I'm like, I didn't think there was any value in that shit, you know. But back to the authentic self thing, it is what she's referring to in that, in that moment. So if you find someone like that, keep them and, you know, enjoy life. I mean, I resonate with that advice a lot, even through my business work. I'm sure you know, John, right? Yeah. Through everything that I do, I had to shed a lot of my, um, attempts to, to be somebody else to just so that I could look the part. And I realized that no, no, no, I think I get to be me. And that's the beautiful gift we all get to have in this life. And we'll figure out the careers that work where you get to be you. And that's where you and I are.

You

can wear your t-shirt and I can wear my t-shirt, right?

I'll tell you that I, um, I, uh, I grew up in this Princeton family. My father, my sister, and my brother went to Princeton. I was the loser in my family. And I, you know, when I learned to be my authentic self is really when my practice took off. And ironically, and I can accept it now, here's my Princeton brother and sister. My sister ran marketing. for the largest cosmetic company in the world. My sister and my brother manage West Coast operations for British Petroleum.

Oh.

And here I am doing my stuff. And they both said to me on separate occasions, you know, Jon, if Mom were alive today, she'd be prouder of you than any of us.

Oh, wow.

And I struggle to accept that. Yeah. But, you know, I'm learning to— I just know if I'm me, It helps. It allows you to be you.

Yes. Yes. I think the safe space you create partly comes from the safe space you take, that you create for yourself. When you operate the way you do, it just really lowers the guard for everybody around you, especially in the sessions. It's very important, right, for them to open up. And, ah, man, I never really understood. I never really thought that the Now I know why I was hesitant about you, John. It's the Princeton degree that was missing in the pitch. Just kidding. I actually couldn't care less. I couldn't care. You could tell me that KPI went to a community college, a dump. I wouldn't care.

Exactly.

But that's the beauty. Like, you're who you are. Your essence kind of walks ahead of you much more than a degree, which is, which is a gift that we both have. I think we need to lean in towards that.

Yes.

But anyway, thank you so much for being here. It's been such a blast, and I'll hope to have you again on the show.