Why Building In Public Is Right For You (feat. BIPF2 Fellows)

Hey everybody, welcome to the Building Public Podcast. I'm your host KP, and on this show I interview world-class entrepreneurs, ambitious startup founders, creators, and builders on the internet who are boldly building the future in public. This podcast is my excuse to take you all on a curious journey to understand, learn, and hopefully be inspired by the worldviews, insights, and stories of these fabulous people changing the world. So far, I've gotten the rare privilege to sit down with incredible We've had incredible guests like Gary Vee, Alexis Ohanian, Kat Cole, Sahil Lavingia, and many more leaders. So check out the full podcast listing at buildingpublicpodcast.com. Now buckle up and get ready for our latest episode. All right. Hello everybody. Welcome to Building Public Podcast. I'm your host, KP, and I am insanely thrilled and excited to have my Dear fellows from BIPF2, the Build in Public Fellowship that I run, second cohort. I can't believe we're already about to be in the third cohort on August 7th. So I'm getting a chance to bring 3 of my favorite fellows from the previous cohort to kind of share their experience of what it felt like to be part of the fellowship. What were the unique takeaways that they had, you know, based on their personal journeys, how they benefited from being with each other, being in this sort of peer-led community, and what it means to build in public for each of them. And kind of like, you know, jazz, sort of go into this jam for like the next 30, 40 minutes and riff about, you know, all things creator journey, all things founder journey and building in public. So that's the theme of the conversation. I'm super honored to invite Jim, Varun, and Aishwarya into the interview. Welcome, guys. Hey, KP.

Hello. Hey, KP. Thank you so much for having us.

Thanks for being here. Thanks for being here. Why don't we do a quick round of intros? Tell the listeners who you are and what is the latest project that you've been working on? Jim, why don't you go first?

My name is Jim Croft. I'm very Very happy to be here on one of my favorite podcasts in the world. I'm a little bit mind-blown by it, to be on the Build in Public podcast. And in life, I am sort of juggling like a Mad Hatter in the arts. I have a long history as a musician and as an independent filmmaker. And more recently, on KP's encouragement, I've launched my podcast, which is taking up more and more time and is more and more fun. And it's great fun. So it's a big juggle here.

And he's being too humble and British to say this, but his podcast, his launch was stellar. It was amazing, spectacular to watch. And it already within, I think, less than a week broke into Apple top charts. It's, you know, in my view, it's been talk of the town on Instagram and on Twitter. There've been so many clips, so many appreciations and thank yous. I feel like a lot of us who were in the cohort saw this kind of launch and, you know, this kind of reaction for you happen anyway. We kind of predicted it, you know? Mm-hmm. But it was so heartwarming to actually, See that in real life. You know, so many of our journeys are like that. We all knew a certain thing would work. That's why we were gravitated towards it, maybe. But then when it really manifests itself, it's so pleasing to watch. So we felt that for you, Jim. So thank you. Also, Jim has— I mean, we can go on forever, but Jim has an insane song among his many, many amazing hits on Spotify and Apple Music. Please listen to the song called Obstacles, my favorite, on Spotify, and I'll include the link in the podcast— I mean, in the show notes. And you'll really appreciate this man after that song. Obstacles on Spotify.

I'll pay you later, KP.

You can Venmo me. Yeah, you can Venmo me. We have this kickback thing. No, just kidding. All right, we'll go to Aishwarya next. Aishwarya, tell us a little bit about you and what you're working on.

Absolutely. First off, I think it's super amazing to be here with Jim, Varun, and you. It's like reliving the whole VIPF sessions that we used to have. Just hang out and discuss some of the stuff that you're working on. So for the folks who are listening, I'm Aishwarya, and I am— if I just If I just have to call myself, I would say I'm a product nerd. Like, I love geeking out on tech, I love building products. So that's what I do for my living. And I also love hosting people, which is like listening to their conversations, their stories. So which led me into starting The Founders For You, which is a show for folks like us who love building in public, who love and enjoy tech and listening to other people's perspectives. So it's been fun talking to fellow creators, founders who've struggled and who've also had their successes by building out tools early on. And I think this is my way of helping them connect with thousands of other folks who are just waiting out to do a journey that we are similarly on. So it's been amazing. And yeah, that's how I get to meet a lot of interesting folks like you. So yeah.

I remember being on your show. It was such a blast. I had so much fun on that interview. Your questions were super thoughtful. Your energy was so warm and welcoming, which is very important as a podcast host is that you want to create that space for the guests. So you do such a great job. You have an You have an amazing roster of guests, which is a great sort of testament to your sort of growth as a podcaster. So I really love that. When I say great guests, I'm also including myself too. Just kidding.

Yes, absolutely. And I think all of this started with just a cold note to KP, right? Like just sending him a message and saying, hey, I love your work. I would love to speak to you on the show. And I think from then to now, it's just been like a short journey, but I feel like we've just gotten connected over a different level. And it's so good to get to know each other that way. So thank you so much. yourself there as a great person.

Thank you. Thank you. I love that you did the shoot my shot move there, right? Something we talk about in the fellowship.

Yes.

And you're joining from Chennai, correct?

Yes.

And Jim's right now is in Europe somewhere.

Berlin.

Berlin. All right. All right. After you, Varun, give us a little intro.

Yeah. So start off, I guess I would have to say this is my first podcast recording.

So You could say, sorry, Varun, you could say that I was on 3 podcasts because really we have 3 podcast hosts here.

And Radha, Varun brings us all together. He's like, oh my God, like I'm the host here. And like, I'm going to host the 3 podcast hosts together.

So background-wise, I'm a computer science engineer. I studied in the US, worked there for some time in the Bay Area in Silicon Valley. Then in 2018, moved back to India and then transitioned into manufacturing. So that manufacturing journey has been, has had a lot of ups and downs. And so that's kind of what led me into BIPF saying, hey, is there something for me to share? And if so, how? And so I think that is what really brought me here. And that's a little bit about what I'm doing now.

Varun's very soft-spoken, as you can tell by now. And, but he's a low-key rubber, rubber glove baron, right? He's a, he's a very accomplished entrepreneur. He doesn't like to toot his own horn, but he's very humble, approachable. One thing I loved spending time with you, Warren, we were each other's accountability buddies in the fellowship, was how self-effacing and, you know, just simply humble he was all through. And I had to really like hype him up a little bit. I'm like, Warren, you gotta, you gotta like play out a little bit, you know, you gotta brag a little sometimes. But he's so, so soft-spoken, you know, which is something I love about you, Warren. So let's start with the first prompt, which I have in mind. For the 3 of you, which is outside of me, you can't say KP because of you, but outside of me, what were some compelling factors that led you to joining BIPF and joining the second cohort? You can go with Jim. Let's go the same order. Jim, Aishwarya, and Varun. Yeah.

Well, so in Berlin, the winters are long, bitter, painful, and endless. And this year I decided to kind of like go and attack them. So I dislocated both my shoulders the year before. So I was trying to get back to health and I was running out every night going to the gym about 5 5K through the snow, taking on the pain. And what did I discover? The Build in Public podcast. And I kept on listening to episodes and I was so inspired by it. And this was like so exciting. And then this sort of, I think I hadn't been on Twitter for 10 years and I just thought, I just love this podcast. So I'm just going to go on for no other reason but to say, right, I just want to say you've really made a difference to my life. And I'm learning so much from my path, from all these crazy hackers and no-coders and people outside of my area of interest. And it was just so weird and inspiring. And then shocking thing, KP wrote back. And then we sort of end— well, I mean, I actually, I didn't write to you directly to start with. I think I just dropped a comment and then it went from there. And then eventually I remember I got the shock of my life because you wrote to me. You said, Jim, I watched your documentary. This is a documentary I shot on the Trump-Clinton election 2016. It did very well in the film festivals. And I couldn't believe it because you, you know, you're a— I hate to say this in public, but we are building in public. But you know, you're a bit of a hero of mine, you know, while I was listening to all of this and loving what you're doing. And you're like, I watched the documentary and I was like, no damn way. And then we got chatting and anyway, and then you told me about the Building Public Fellowship and I was like, oh man. And I was so split in two because on the one hand I was like, I love the energy of this guy and we really connected. And it's something that for me was a surprise because I had a sense of your sort of wholeness as a human being, but I didn't have a sense of this broader spirituality that I very much associate with you and this sense of mission and drive and this sense of actually we can change the world in very small ways by these micro the micro ways that we put— that we express our path and show our path through building in public. But the other part of me was like, no damn way, I'm not a cohort guy. I'm an artist, I'm a rugged individualist, and I'm too damn busy. And but, you know, the problem with you, KP, is you're so damn convincing. And it was like, you know, you look at me with those big lovely eyes while we're chatting, and I was like, God, I just imagine the next 6 weeks I could talk to this dude for 6 weeks. And so you suckered me in, and it was one of the best decisions I've made in a very long time. And I don't want to overblow And I'm not here to sell it for you, but I would say it is one of the things that has been in some type of aspect transformational in some type of way of I've been in a transitional phase of my life and this experience and being around you and the energy that you have helped me like a type of sort of guide or mentor. And it's very rare the right angel comes into your life at the right time. And so I've had a great experience. I'm very grateful. And those were my resistances, if you like.

That was a great, great sort of backstory. I mean, I knew some parts of it. I definitely did not know the sort of the other side of it in a way. What really resonates there is sort of this, like I've learned a while ago, Jim, that if you really jive with somebody, even if it's for 5, 10 minutes on the internet, it's so rare to get that spark going, you know, whether it's your favorite author or your favorite founder or favorite musician. I often do this, you know, on my Twitter, if you notice, like I was reading this book called The Third Door by this author called Alex Bunyan. And I really resonated with the first 20 pages. And so the thing I did was just went to Twitter Found him on Twitter, and then gave a public shout out. No, like no ROI, no expectations, nothing. It just said that I appreciate your work. It resonates with me. And nine out of ten times they don't respond because again they're all big authors. So maybe they're busy. Maybe they don't know me. But that's not the point. The point is to offer my appreciation. And I feel like every once in a while serendipity works in your favor where they will respond or they will like either lead to some other. Zoom call or some other, you know, life event, and suddenly you're either friends with them or, you know, you've done business with them. It's just insanely fulfilling, you know. So I appreciate your first reach out, and that led to this moment. Isn't that crazy, right? Like, it's a domino effect.

So it's wild.

Yeah. And I'm grateful that our paths have crossed. And the 6 weeks there was really just sort of, in my view, the launchpad or the beginning chapter, you know, like the prologue Or what do you call that? Is it prologue? Yeah, like the main initial 4 pages of really long, you know, journey and transformation that you're gonna face and experience. So excited for that.

Could I just chuck in, KP, but that's part of the thing that I found so surprising about it was the level to which you're investing in a sort of deeper way with the people that are working with you. It doesn't feel like it's a transactional relationship. And that was a big surprise.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you. All right, Aishwarya, tell us about what brought you to VIPF.

Yeah, I think before that, Jim's was a great story. And when he was sharing a lot of what he had gone through, I think I can see through a lot of this sentiment because somewhere I feel that the connection that I had with you, and even before I got to know you, the whole Build in Public as a concept. So I think most of us have been on social media, whether it's Twitter, LinkedIn. I think somewhere what got us all together is that passion to bring our ideas live, like just work out on our ideas, uh, see how it helps us grow and learn newer things. So I remember that I used to tinker around with some of these no-code tools. I love shipping stuff. So even before there was this actual term called build in public, I was pretty much doing something similar lines. But the first time I got to know about this phrase was from KP himself. So I chanced upon KP's profile on Twitter and I was like, oh my God, what is build in public? Like, what is it really called? And then this phrase started getting through to different people and I was like, oh wait, I'm actually doing that. And maybe there's like a fancy way to call this. And Which made me like dig deeper into, okay, what does Build in Public stand for? And that put me into the world of so many creators who are, I think, having fun. So for me, what really mattered in building out these ideas was not the fact that you're building it for somebody. It's not the fact that you're doing it because you're asked to do, or, you know, it's like you're sort of guided by certain norms, but you just do it because it gives you so much joy. And, um, I think that's the primary reason that brought me into Build in Public and also helped me discover KP. And like he mentioned, it was Shruta Shah. I loved having him on the podcast. So That brought us into like a good relationship. And I think when he brought this concept of Build in Public Fellowship, I instantly jumped onto it because I think this is the best way, like I said, to meet those fellow people who just don't build stuff because they are just forced into it, but because they have some sort of a passion or joy that just brings them to what they want to do. And I think this is just the seat that you want to sit on to meet those fellow folks and sort of have an everyday conversation with them. I think to go back to what we did during the cohort, I loved the sessions, but I think I think apart from the sessions, those little quirks that we had for the BIPF cohort, like a simple example being the accountability partner. So I remember Rachel and I used to get onto calls right after our session. We used to write down our goals. I think I just used to check on Rachel's goals, she used to check on mine, and then we used to be like, okay, so here we are, like 50% through our journey, so how's the next week going to look like? And there are days that we've ranted to each other about, hey, this didn't really go well. And I think it's the fact that you You befriend people, you sort of come closer to people by just not by the virtue of saying, hey, I give you X, you give me Y. Just the way that you said, it's not transactional. But I think you're just bound to work with each other because you're genuinely interested in supporting each other's journey, like very happy for each other's success. I think that sort of happiness is so unparalleled, and I think you can get that in the cohort. And it's so good to be around the people without any expectation. And, and that's my any day the best thing that happened through the cohort.

I love that. You know, when you were saying about this interestingness or sort of supporting each other in that journey, I've found this maybe 4 or 5 years ago as a life hack, and which I'm sharing with you guys. I think you kind of know this if you've spent the time with me, but generally to the listeners, this is like a mind-blowing underrated MrBeast-level life hack. Okay. So in college, I used to always try so hard to be interesting. For that, I did shit like wear a bandana, You know, try to like drive a motorbike. Like, you know, I did all kinds of things like bending over backwards, all kinds of things just to be that much more interesting to that girl or to the group of boys or whatever. And for a reason, I always felt like I was trying too hard and felt a little like, you know, man, why am I so— why am I not naturally so interesting? And however, the ones who were so interesting, at least in the college lifestyle, life scope, were either like some brazen, like, you know, like renegades Gates, or, you know, some of these people who are like irreverent as a brand. I didn't feel like that was my brand. I couldn't simply just be an asshole to kind of be an asshole or make a statement. Eventually, there's a happy ending to this story where I think 4 or 5 years ago, I mean, I felt like for a decade I was just not so interesting. I was just like, you know, whatever. There was an aha moment 5 years ago when I was starting my Twitter and getting active where somebody said this and I really tried that. And from there, I think everything has been super, super like upside only, which is to be Interesting, you have to be interested in others. So I really flipped that sort of the power balance and really started— stopped worrying about how can I be interesting as a person, as a, you know, account or as a creator or as a podcast or whatever. And I began really focusing on how can I be interested in people's stories, their comments, their launches, their product launches, their first— Like, weren't like like his first podcast appearance is a pretty big deal, right? I remember my first podcast appearance and I was, you know, like it was a big deal. I had like, I think a celebratory dinner that night, right? And so really, really focusing on that and being interested in these micro interactions we have either on Twitter, YouTube, whatever compounds like crazy. So 5 years later, you build up this social capital that everybody wants to talk to you wherever. Like usually wherever I go, people want to talk to me and I don't know how. I'm like, I'm not any more like cool than when I was in college. I'm the same dorky kid, but because I genuinely care, I genuinely try to understand their story, which also helps because I'm a podcaster. But like that aside, I feel like that is what I've learned about interestingness, Aishwarya. And I think to your point about in the cohort, if the people who I think had the best experience in the cohort were the ones who were interested in others.

Yes.

Less, they tried less to be interesting or be like cool, you know? So anyway, with that massive background story or a tangential point, We're going to go to Varun. Varun, you're— I'm curious to hear about your sort of journey to BIPF because you're not the typical, you know, persona that we attract. You're in manufacturing, which is not, you know, like building public friendly generally. Also, you're a busy CEO. You run a company that's at least $3 million in ARR. So you're a pretty accomplished guy. What brought you to BIPF?

Right. So while everybody else was talking, I was also just like kind of piecing through the sequence of events that have happened. So it actually started because I realized 2 things. One is that whenever I go and see other products or services, the ones that really stick on is the people that have interesting stories, websites. That's what kind of emotionally connects with you. If you just go and see that, if you just go and see a website where you know that it's just generic content, you're just going to disengage unless you really want what it is. Otherwise, you're not going to really go further. So I was like, hey, how can I— that was, I think, one thing is like, hey, how can I create an emotional connection is something that I started to think about. And the reason I started to think about that was because of my son, actually. So he's going— he's 4 years old now. But when he started going to school, my wife decided that she wanted to start a Montessori school. So we realized that a lot of the teaching that can be done in a Montessori school can actually be done at home, or at least a large chunk of it. or 60-70% of it we can bring to the house. So, we started brainstorming and trying to come up with a solution where how can we kind of take what we are doing in a Montessori school, which let's say less than 1% of the population can probably afford, and bring it to something that the remaining 99% can afford. Very cheap, very— it should be very cheap, but it should be having very high value so that people would be able to get interested. And so, what drew me is what kind of what you mentioned is the social capital that if I had social capital, it'd be very very easy for me to get people to join. It'll be easy for me to share what I am doing, both to attract people to work with me and if people find it interesting to work along with the ideas or concepts that we're going after, and as well as to attract users. So you see it very often, like people who already have a following when they launch products, you kind of hit a different level of traction. So that's kind of what made me start thinking, okay, how do I build social capital? Do I do personal branding or how do I get my story out there, which is what kind of brought me into Build in Public. They're saying, like, hey, I'm in manufacturing, I have ideas. It's like, it's just a lot of craziness going on in my head. It's like, who would be interested in knowing, hey, somebody I interviewed for 2 months joined on day 1 and left on day 1. But then that's kind of what's saying, okay, let me join something that can help me to learn how I could possibly tell the story, how I can share that knowledge that I am gaining in a way that will help others. Right. Primarily it's not to—

yeah. Varun, I got a dumb question actually. So I remember you starting your Twitter account after joining BIPF, which means you were not present on Twitter, which means you must've not seen the launch tweets of BIPF and all that. So how did you even get to the website, man? Like we both don't know.

I think it was just through Google. I think we started building in public and I started going around through Google and I didn't know you either.

Yeah. We didn't know each other.

Oh, wow. That's— if I had a CMO in the company, they would get a raise, but because there's no CMO and I'm the CMO, so I'm gonna treat myself. I'm gonna treat myself to something tonight.

Because I'm actually— I was thinking through how did I actually come across it, but I am very sure it was through Google because I didn't have Twitter at the time, Facebook or Instagram, so I would not have come in. I'm not a very frequent LinkedIn user, so I'm fairly sure I was just searching for build in public. I started looking at who are doing things and build in public. So I think somewhere along that search, this link came up and I was like, hey, this is interesting. It's like a 6-week thing that can kind of immerse you into this. And it's like, I think that's the first, one of the first things was kind of like, just get started. Don't worry about this. Content doesn't matter. Out of hundreds of tweets, only one bad tweet is that nobody's going to worry about it. Like understanding the perception from a different, from a reader really helped break, I guess, the layer of break the barriers to say, okay, let's give this a shot. And I think now I'm almost at 300 tweets or so somewhere in that. I think that's what brought me to BIPF. And I think the rest is history.

The rest is history, as they say.

I'm building on that.

Now I'm stuck with you for life and the rest is just kidding. So I want to talk about actually the phrase building in public, because I think every one of us has a different affinity towards it and different definition of it and how we employ and embody that in our own way. So when I start the fellowship, I always talk about how building in public to me is kind of like Buddhism or veganism, or like it's a philosophy, it's a lifestyle. So everybody, you know, like different— there are different kinds of Buddhists, there are different kinds of vegans. It's ultimately the— I think core belief is the same, but to the level at which you execute that philosophy is different. And it's very individualized based on your needs and your story. So I'm curious, Jim, what does building in public mean to you? And how do you try to embody that now?

So I'd never heard of The phrase build in public, I think, like Aishwarya, I had been doing this in a way for my whole life. But having said that, I think thinking about it in a different way, and also from this interesting no-code and hacking and a different world that I was interested in, just looking at, okay, what could I draw from this into the path of the arts? I sort of think of myself as a creative entrepreneur because I'm juggling mediums and the world says niche down. I'm sort of the idiot that does nothing but that, but that's the way that I am. And I think it's the unity between those things that perhaps give me a different take on things, if you like. When it came to building in public, from an artistic perspective, if you like, it's about the story within things and recognizing that there is a profundity and a potential meaning that can be drawn out of the smallest possible things that are happening to us. Mm-hmm. And that includes the full tapestry of What can happen to you, whether it's in a day or in a week, what you're working towards. And one of the things I very much enjoyed about following your Build in Public journey, KP, is that you will talk about the great things that happen. And as you said about earlier, you know, I'm British, sort of, I grew up before social media came out. I'm still a bit reticent to shout when good stuff happens, but now I'm like, I kind of get it. It's okay. The digital world is moving so damn fast. It's this nonstop river. You've got to Be a voice for yourself so that you can be a voice for others and vice versa. And so, and it's like Varun, like you were saying about putting the story, I've been following you on Twitter and it's like, wow, this is a totally different world to something that I'm interested in. And suddenly I can kind of start knitting together the poetry and the interest of this man, you know, on the other side of the world in manufacturing, doing something that I have on the surface no obvious interest in. Suddenly I'm going, wow, look at this journey this man's having. So it gravitates and it pulls an audience in. And so, it's this sense of the story within things and this exchange with the world and recognizing that somehow by exposing not just the good stuff that's going on, but also having a sort of courage to put out when there is something that's happened that's— it's not about dumping your whole state of being, but it's about being transparent about the journey that you're on. And that includes the whole kaleidoscope of things that happen to you, including when something just absolutely tanks and doesn't go well. So, for me, there's this very courageous aspect about building in public that has drawn out the courage to both shout about the good stuff that's going on, but also to say, okay, when something tanks for me, I can put that out and discover that that can actually encourage people in other ways. Because there's a few people, you know, I'm 15 years down the line in my journey in the arts, and it's like, well, when something tanks for me, that can be quite helpful for someone, not because they're having schadenfreude, but just to know there's going to be pitfalls and pain and hurdles and obstacles and all the rest of it on the path. And we all know that there is. So building in public has become a little bit of a unifying motto for those ideas. And that's what I learned about as well through the fellowship.

I love that. I love that showing both the love side of things and also the pain, because there's no happy, like just roses and rainbows alone, right? In any journey, any meaningful journey has Both highs and lows. And I feel like often, to me, if you're not building in public and kind of sort of showing at least a glimmer of the more vulnerable parts, you're almost doing a disservice to people behind you. Because when they hit that inevitable pitfall, they're going to think that something's wrong with them as opposed to being, oh, this is just part of the journey, you know. And I suffered from that. I suffered from a lot of people watching and consuming content from a lot of people where they would never show anything painful or anything vulnerable, any tanking moment. So in my head, I was thinking for years that maybe I'm the, you know, I'm at fault, instead of thinking, oh, they're just hiding the juicy stuff or the non-fun stuff.

And also that that becomes a real gift for others. And it's so inclusive. And I've found that it's so easy when you're trying to create something or build something, and we're almost taught to just share the successes and the celebrations and the rest of it. But it's like, that's not where the good The good stuff is the totality of the journey.

Yeah. In the hero's journey, if you see any of these great movies are made on, the myths are written about, in the hero's journey, there's always moments where, you know, the hero or heroine questions himself or herself. And that's where the, you know, the mentor and things like that. So there are always inflection points. You can't just share, you know, they just began working on something and then they had a great success. You know, you're skipping all the steps. Aishwarya, what does building in public mean to you? And how do you try to embody that now?

Yeah. I think earlier we were talking about being interesting is, you know, by being interested in other people's work. So to me, Build in Public was one way that I was trying to make it more of a mindset rather than, you know, like a system or something that one could adapt to. Because somewhere, if you're curious and if you're interested about a bunch of things like I do, I think somewhere I love building out products. For me, I saw art as a way to express my opinions. I love podcasting, which is what brought me into tying up different stories. from people. So when you start becoming curious and when you just want to do a bunch of things, build in public becomes the natural way that your mind thinks. Instead of just having too many stuff in your mind and just getting clogged about stuff, it's the best way to just unleash what you're just thinking about and sort of use it as a medium to get your thoughts out and then see and figure out how things go your way. So for the longest time, I could not put into words what build in public meant to me because like I said, I never knew it was called build in public. So I was just doing things I loved when I went into a flow of state where I love doing art, I loved connecting with people, I love building products. But when it all came together as a phrase called build in public, that's when I sat down to really reflect upon, okay, what does it really mean to me? And I think it just became a way for me to let go of, hey, I have to be perfect, and you know, like, I only have one side of me to be showing in public, and that's just like, hey, I should have this, I should have that. Instead of that, it just became like a natural way for me to think. So it's Like, I think in public and I put these things out in public, and this is the way that I'm able to improve on what I do as well as understand how it really resonates with the others. And I think I would like to clarify on the way it resonates with others, because oftentimes a pitfall that we as, uh, people who are passionate about what we do can fall into is when we start putting these things out, our goals really become around, hey, did this content really go viral? Or like, does this particular piece resonate with this audience? And then And then eventually we get attached a lot with the audience. So for me, I also redefined my goal. So Build in Public was not just a way for me to say I would do what my audience wants, or I would like really do something that only goes with like 10K set of people. But I think somewhere it became a very personal affair. It's like finding my own voice. It's like Build in Public is the way that I'm able to express myself and build something for me. And when I start there, I know I'm going to attract the kind of crowd, I'm going to meet the kind of people who believe in the same journey as I do. So if I'm able to build that thing for myself, if I'm able to find a voice that's so individual, then I think it leads me to people. And that's what it led with both the PIPF cohort as well as the podcast journey that I'm onto. It helps me meet fellow people. And in fact, people laugh when I, when I, when I talk to folks about how I met somebody. They're like, oh, so you didn't meet this person in real life, but like, how did you get to know this person? I think it's insane when I say my virtual world is actually like yet another parallel world. Like how I have a very real life. So a lot of folks that I've met and a lot of folks that I call as very close friends are people that I met through this journey. And not because I set out this journey to say that Aishwarya is going to build in public and she's going to make all of these transactional relationships. No, I think it's because I was able to think fearlessly. I was able to just put my thoughts out there. And that eventually brought me closer to people who also felt the same way about being vulnerable, being open. Just being themselves in the journey. So it's so cool to now say that I've got so many people that I know in the virtual world, which I don't realize now. For me, it's just so blurry right now that I'm like, oh my God, I have so many friends that I have not met in real life, but they are like super, super close friends.

Yeah, I love that. I couldn't agree more. I feel like that's another sort of underrated aspect about this is it's almost like a secret treasure that you hit on while you're on this building public journey. You know, practically my whole network, which which a lot of my peers from 4 or 5 years ago think that like I've worked at Silicon Valley for the last 5 years and came out with this amazing network. Actually, it came from just building in public, you know, just like you. I assure you, I have such an eclectic set of people around me. You know, I have people like Varun, like I have Jim from like the music world. I have you. I have like hundreds of people that are very eclectic. So if I ever did like a KP party, it would be like bizarre. It would be like time 100, you know, So weird and random, but they all represent a microcosm of my worldview and my energy. I think that's another thing. Exactly. In real life, you're limited by your zip code. If I'm in Buford, Georgia, north of Atlanta, so if there's how many people in Buford, Georgia have or resonate with my energy, comma, yet my worldviews, I have no clue. But I clearly know there's a bloke out there in Berlin who will like wake up at 3 AM in the morning and pick me up from the airport if need be, just so that he could get the 40-minute time with me to talk shop on, you know, building in public or whatever topic that is. So yeah, I think the internet allows us to rearrange our relationships however we want, right?

Exactly. Yeah, no, I think just adding on to that bit, uh, this is exactly what I told one of my friends last week that When we're growing up, I think we're always— the example that you gave in terms of zip code is what happens when we are at school, at college, at workplace. There's a certain boundary that we are always into, and we feel like, oh, I made this friend because, you know, I was at a work setting. And there's always like a definition with which we start our relationships with. But when it's online, and when we're putting our work out, and when we are connecting with others in the internet world, I think you don't have the boundary. It's basically you're just given a free space and you attract what you genuinely and curiously put out. So I think not having that initial boundary works great for you to meet a very versatile set of people.

It's kind of like being in a classroom without walls, right? It's this limitless, endless millions of classrooms where you can rearrange where you sit. You don't have to sit with Tom or Jim just because— I'm not this Jim, but you don't have to sit with someone just because you happen to be Entering the room at the same time, right? And I think that is, I feel like that's a mind-blowing realization that I had again, 4 or 5 years ago. Once you have that, you almost don't care about the analytics side of this. You almost don't care about the virality because I feel like that is a missed opportunity. If you're just focused only on virality or how many people are praising and validating me, you're missing out on all these other serendipity things, right? Like all these other beautiful things.

Could I just pop in there, KK? Just to say before During the pandemic when everyone was going online, I was like, no chance, I'm not doing any of this online stuff. And I went analog. I wrote like 1,500 pages of a book, not published, thanks very much. Didn't try. It's all typewritten. But the thing that really interested me about the Build in Public is that this very area that you're talking about now, about embracing— I've always, and a lot of artists have this sense of resistance with the digital world. And I'm talking about artists as opposed to content creators because it's a totally different psychology, right? You know, I come more from the arts world, and I don't mean that as a definition about better or worse. I'm just talking different. And becoming on the building in public, it's really first of all got me really excited about the opportunities in the digital economy. But above that, and much more importantly, it's just opening up about the possibilities of the way that you can. meet people and exchange with them, get to know them, interface with them. And that has been something that's really changed as a result of the cohort for me.

I love that. All right, Varun, thank you for being patient. What is your definition? I'm very curious to hear because I feel like you have a very, very different lens coming to this. So what is your definition of building in public and how do you try to embody it now?

Yeah, so I guess for me, building in public is not actually making a product or something in public. But to me, building in public is more about sharing experiences and learnings that I had over the last, let's say, 4 or 5 years that I have been doing this, primarily to help build on the knowledge. Like if I have a problem here, someone chimes in and says, hey, why don't you think about it this way? I said, oh yeah, you could. Just to build on the— build on other ways of handling issues that I'm having on one side, but also to teach others because I think that But everybody likes to teach other people. A lot of people like to do that. And when you teach somebody else, it also helps to kind of make it more concrete in your own mind as to what you're learning. So I think that is the primary thing because over 4 years I have gone from taking 3x-ing a company because of the COVID pandemic and gloves was a huge commoditized product that was in huge demand during that period. And within a year after that, trying to— having a turnover fall 50%. And managing the hiring process and then the accelerated downsizing process, managing a ramping up of suppliers and then trying to figure out which suppliers to keep and which ones you don't want. So I have, maybe I could almost say that I've gone through what people might go over 10 or 15 years. I have seen the extremes of that in a 2 to 3 year period. And so when I initially started, I wasn't even thinking, thinking that way. It was just more of saying, hey, I As KB always say, like, hey, write to someone who is 4 or 5 years behind you. So I think that is the crux of the message that I'm trying to say is, okay, if there's something that happened today, it's like, hey, let me share that with you. Some of it might be good, some of it might be not great, but it doesn't matter. Obviously people know I'm still around. So we're solving the problems and getting around, getting moving forward to solve the next problem that comes. So I think that is what what Build in Public means to me right now. It's more of sharing, sharing for the guy that is 4 or 5 years behind me. You know, we hope that at least I can help somebody, some unknown person sees something that I have written and say, hey, that helps me.

You know, James Clear, the author who wrote Atomic Habits, right? Great book. Has a fantastic saying, which I was just thinking about when you were talking about teaching. He says very succinctly that when one Everyone teaches to learn, including the teacher, right? And so it's so powerful. Like you said, when you elucidate anything that you've learned or you've experienced yourself in the journey, it becomes a lot more crystallized and concrete in your brain just by the act of sharing it, because you have to come up with the description of it. How you— what happened, how would you learn, right? And by the way, the reason I stay so sharp on the game of building in public is purely because I get to teach You know, and I'm always interfaced by the resistance and the challenges that the new students come in with, which reminds me that they're all obstacles that can be overcome because they are clearly saying that those are the reasons why they're stopping a certain thing. And it reminds me of the days where I felt that maybe four or five years ago and how I overcame that. And so I'm always—it's kind of like martial arts. I feel like entrepreneurship is one thing, and even building in public or kind. Finding your voice in storytelling is another thing. These 2 things are like martial arts. Like, it's not where you just like take a crash course in taekwondo and then for the rest of your life, you know, you don't have to work out, right? You have to always practice the fundamentals. Otherwise somebody will hand you in the mat, right? They will destroy you in the mat. So you have to always fight with your own inner resistance for the rest of your life. So with that segue, I want to get to concept of impact and making a difference. Because I, you know, you guys tell me on Slack, you guys are in my one-on-ones, but this is probably a good public forum to kind of put it out there to the world and to the people who are listening. In what ways do you believe that Building in Public Fellowship, BIPF, or the community has made an impact on your journey, you know, or made a difference, small, medium, big, extra large, whatever size you want to choose in your unique journey? I'm genuinely curious to hear that.

Well, I think the most tangible difference for me has been the pulling together of different interests and starting the podcast. And you've really encouraged me with that, KP. And it's like, well, I got the gear because of the filmmaking, love to chat with people, but it's really the key thing of overcoming the resistance through the building public mentality, going, okay, well, this is a natural way of actually putting it into life. And but also the building public. So that's been one very tangible thing that I've started and which I'm also building that in public, if you like. A second one for me has been, well, actually recognizing the— not the power of Twitter, but the potential in Twitter. Because 10 years ago, I was filming a documentary and I was putting out on Twitter and it was just so— there was so much polarization and anger and resent and it was so political. And I was like, I don't want anything to do with this because I was like, I just don't need to be putting the dump of the world's brain into me every day. I just want to get on with the business of making stuff and trying to make a real-world impact through my work. But then through coming on Build in Public Fellowship, I started sort of looking at it very differently. And one of the absolutely strange things was that the hashtag Build in Public is the most supportive and exciting and community-based niche. And it's a totally different type of niche. So for instance, like the guys Parallax, who are a company who I found through you and become friendly with online. And they're just like a bunch of sort of renegades. They're like Wild West guys and girls just out there. They're basically using Twitter as Slack. It's a disaster. I get filled up with them, but they're absolutely batty and nuts. And they're doing it so beautifully and so much heart. So you come across these different people. And then I sort of put out a couple of different things. I thought, oh, I'm starting to write a new album, maybe I'll just whack out a few things. You'd been encouraging me about doing a bit of music. I thought, oh, Twitter, it's a bit exposing. And then I was like, okay, well, I'll just put a few things out. And then, you know, I put out a couple of things, and the people at Parallax were like sort of bees around a beehive, you know, swarming around it and sharing it, going, oh, this guy Jim, he's gonna do our music for our next album. I was like, who are these lunatics? So that was like a really, really So, there's been just a few real tangible things like for me, the podcast, recognizing the power of Twitter, and then thinking, well, maybe the last thing in the world that I was expecting was to actually take music and to build that in public in a new way. So, it's a massive impact on me and I'm very thankful for the journey.

And even if you're able to do 10% of the musical journey in public, right? I think it would be immensely captivating for the audience, like people like me and all of us here and like the Parallelect guys, everybody else who follows you because Because that's your gift, Jim, right? If you have something that you're blessed with, right? It's like you're gifted with that talent of writing, the lyrical side of you and the passion side of you. And then more importantly, very, very more importantly, the musical sense that you have, which I don't have. I'm musically illiterate. My wife would attest. I try my best at the piano with my 2-year-old and we're both— I think he's better than me, but we're both bad. And so I look at you with a sense of envy and a sense of admiration and think like, wow, what a gift it is to have like, you know, that kind of thing flow through you so naturally. And imagine if you wrote the album in public, the single in public, and like a couple melodies here, a couple beats here, and involved them. And tomorrow, 7 months or 8 months or 2 years down the line, when finally the record comes out on Spotify, I will lose my mind listening to it with 8 speakers in my house. Like, yeah, I played a role in this. This is the one that Jim played in public and we all chimed in. There's a sense of that connection you feel that is so rare. And I think more artists should build in public generally.

Well, that's one of the crazy things that I could say is that actually the experience of building in public in a way has been bringing back my musical heart to me because somehow, like, I was like 10 years ago signed to major label EMI, the label of the Beatles and Radiohead, absolute pinnacle of my career. But then Universal swallowed it and lost that deal. Deal. And I built myself back up. And when the pandemic hit, I was right at the, at the second apex of my career. And Obstacles was, was, um, on the Spotify editorial playlist, and it was going absolutely crazy, and the gigs going crazy. And then the pandemic hit, and then it's taken some time since then to— because I've also been doing a lot of other stuff to kind of just like get back into it. So, but this has been a really surprising kickback and not what I was looking for, that somehow building in public is bringing my musical heart. How the hell?

You never know. There's always a mysterious way, right? Yeah. Aishwarya, what would you say to that prompt? Like, what kind of impact or difference did the fellowship make personally on you?

Yeah, for me, I would say 2 things. One, definitely the sort of relatability that I could get with the things that I was already doing, which is, let's say, a method to the madness. Because a lot of times I would do these things and then figure out, okay, am I really alone? Or, you know, So let's take the simple example of running the podcast. So KB, I remember having this conversation in our, one of those public sessions that we had on BIPF cohort where this question about, so should we optimize for connections or should we really go around virality? And what's the outcome that you want out of a podcast? So I have always been this person who enjoyed bringing good stories, who enjoyed investing in the long-term impact of a podcast rather than optimizing it for short-term Um, calls or metrics or numbers or whatever be it. So it was always like, you know, you operated from a certain mindset and certain ways of thinking and belief. So it's one thing to do that and absolutely another wonderful thing to meet a set of people who sort of encourage you and who are in the same belief set as you're in. So I think it's like finding your clan and your kindred, you know, community where you know, hey, I'm on the right path. And in fact, that's the whole reason that I started the Founder this voyage to say that, of course, there are podcasts around how to scale things up, how to grow a business and whatnot, but there was no messy middle kind of a, you know, content around— I have a silly question and who do I ask this to when I'm building this product or I'm building this idea out? So for me, BIPF was like that. It was like, for me to do this podcast and for me to build my things in public, whether it's a piece of art that I paint or whether it's a podcast series that I put out or any tool that I built, it was just going with the belief factor that I had and helped me understand that, hey, you're not alone. And, you know, you've got these set of people to stay by your beliefs. So I think that was primarily one of the best things that happened for me. And through you, through people like Jim and Varun, and with Varun especially, I got to meet him in person when he was in Chennai. So I think the best part was just, yeah, like building this sort of belief capital in you and also like in others. So, and the second one being, you know, very specific with outcomes. So sometimes what happens is your outcomes could have a very real redefining moment. Like, you could start your Build in Public with certain outcomes, and, you know, eventually you could have the same outcomes amplified, or you could have like the outcomes redefined by the way that you operate. So, you know, I've always had this question about, okay, so how does it go to get your podcast monetized, or what would be the way out? So a lot of sessions that you did through the podcast, which is even shoot your shot in public, or, you know, in terms of getting sponsors— and I'm so glad to have Build in Public as a sponsor for the Founders For You at the end of the day, But yeah, I think the best part is you never know what opportunities it can open you up to. So being very genuine and being very open to understanding how you can redefine your outcomes and how you can just be there to help others out and build that belief capital, I think these couple of things really made the journey stand out for me.

Really inspiring. That's—

yeah, super. I mean, Aishwarya's got like so— like, give me that energy in my veins, Aishwarya. Like, I need that. But you know what it reminds me of? That That one-on-one we had towards the end about sort of monetization. And what blew my mind was, this is something I often notice, especially in the, in the up-and-coming creators of any space, whether it's podcasting or it's music or any of that spaces. And so with you, you already built up a pretty strong roster of clients. I mean, guests on your podcast, you've done, you know, at least what, 40 episodes by the time we both were chatting or 30, you know?

Yeah, 30. Yeah.

Yeah, 30+ episodes. So you clearly knew what you were doing and you had a great pace, a great cadence, and the quality of Conversations were— was amazing. So you really like had your MVP done, right? And I would say even 2.0 done to an extent. And so that conversation with you about KP, like how do I monetize my podcast and how long should I wait, was really interesting for me because in my head I was like, don't wait, just start monetizing today, you know? And I think that advice is very obvious for someone who is 4 steps ahead of you because I was in that scenario. But for you, because you were not 4 steps ahead, that exact moment, that was a tangible difference from no to yes, correct? Yeah. And I noticed it often in many, many people's journeys that they're— if they just had one call or one conversation with someone 4 steps ahead of them and simply presented the biggest barrier they're dealing with, the biggest conundrum they're facing, it's so obvious in the other person's mind, the answer. So when I— when you asked me, I was like, hell yeah, start monetizing today and I will help you. you how to write the sales page, what people care for. And if at the time I didn't think of this, but like 2 days, 3 days later I thought, okay, why don't we just— why don't I become a first sponsor to kind of kick the, you know, flywheel into motion? And now I promise you, I'm not kidding, I promise you, you'll be inundated with the rest of the year with sponsors. Because all it takes is one sponsor, 2 sponsors to really get going, and then the rest of the sponsors look at what you've done and look at social proof and they're like, oh, this is That's it, you know? And so it was really satisfying and gratifying for me to, you know, help you nurture the right thing there. So, all right, Varun, same prompt for you. What kind of impact or difference did BIPF make for you?

Right. So before BIPF— Did it get you a sponsor? Just kidding. I would say 2 things. One is the community of people already in the fellowship. It was very like, as I said, you have designers, you have artists, You have programmers, you have people building things, you have people who build things that didn't work. So just connecting with— you have such a variety of people there in the fellowship already. And since you have a Slack channel to be able to connect, it's like you join the fellowship, you're already like, you have a network of, let's say, 30 people that have immensely different backgrounds and experiences to connect and learn from, and who have— who are in a way all in the same journey that you are. But at different paths and talking about different things. I think that was one. I had a chat with many people in the cohort that was within our cohort and even some people from the previous one to say, hey, what's going on? So that gave me a lot of ideas and thoughts on, okay, how do I want to build out my Build in Public journey? What do I want to share? What would be more useful? And the second thing was kind of through the BIPF journey was trying to figure out what in the world do I want to talk about? Is manufacturing interesting? It's, well, I'm in it. So, but what aspects of it can I add something to? Like what aspects of it are actually interesting to others or what type of angle should I take? The topic or what happened might be very dull, but how can I present it in a way that you can actually learn from it? So I think that is something where you and the team and the cohort, like as you guys were responding to tweets and things like we were even on our one-on-ones, we were like kind of analyzing what had done, what got 1,000 views, what got 20 views. Yeah. Just to figure out what is driving traction, what the way I'm saying it. So I think that for me, since I was just starting off from zero, that was very helpful to help me define, kind of narrow down on, okay, so there is, there could possibly be a need for someone talking about what I'm doing. It's like one, okay, fine. Now how do I, how can I share what I am going through on a day-to-day basis and convert that into a way that is engaging to an audience? I think that engaging side was something that was new for me. And also talking about what, figuring out what to talk about, finding that niche was also something that we figured out how to do. Making it interesting and engaging, I'm still working on. And I hope that my thing will start. And I think towards the end, this kind of went into the idea that, hey, a lot of smaller prompts can— I think in our last one-on-one, that's kind of when we decided that a lot of topics are there which can probably become newsletter type of topics. And that would probably be much more engaging and have a much more— it would offer a— you would offer— you'd give me the picture. It would give you the whole picture rather than just a sliver of the picture. Right. When we're doing that. So I think that is where my journey is. I still have not sat down to actually write out that newsletter, but I will definitely sit down to launch it because I've already planned out like what the 3 or 4 things could be. So maybe it won't be a weekly, it might be a biweekly so I can also get enough time. Time to write things down, but I think that's what BIPF enabled me to do. And I don't think I will be thinking about writing my newsletter or thinking about should I be on Twitter or talking about what happened to me in the office today. I don't think I would have done it without the push and the support that I got through BIPF.

The three hundred tweets, Varun, you know much to your I wonder much to your wife's dismay.

You were staying up in the night and then writing some of these. So one thing I want to say about the sort of when do you want to launch, not just for you, Vern, but like a lot of the even VIPF1 fellows, like I think the 6 weeks to me is almost like your opportunity to immerse yourself in the journey, learn as much as you can, you know, soak it in and really feel inspired and sort of look for that catalytic moment. And after the 6 weeks, you know, when that inspiration strikes you again, the right timing, I feel like I have this phrase that I say divine timing, right? Like there has to be divine timing for things. There's a reason why I waited 31 years to marry my wife. Like, I couldn't have done it at 23. I was not mature enough. Like, there's like, everything runs based on a certain clock, I feel. And so the 6 weeks is just an immersive experience. But at some point in the next 2, 3 months, you may have that, you know, moment where, you know, you're like, okay, I'm gonna launch this thing. The lessons will carry you and this community and all of us are here to kind of, you know, root for you when you do. So I wouldn't worry too much about the timing as much. Last question I have for all of us as we wrap this up is, What would be one piece of advice that you would give to someone who might be interested in BIPF 3 or any of the future cohorts and they're about to get started? Like, what would make their journey of 6 weeks amazing? What would you tell yourself when you were— if you got a chance to talk to your younger self who was getting started to join? Jim?

I think one of the big takeaways for me is a surprising takeaway. And I think this very much comes from your attitude. Well, it does come from your attitude, KP, but it's this sense of fun and of lightness because there's no shortage of difficulty and hard moments and the roller coaster. That's all going to be in life anyway. And the thing that we forget so often is this sense of fun. And you really live that sense of fun. And that made the sessions themselves fun. But for me, I know that I probably appear as an upbeat character, but I have an artistic sensibility and it's, you know, converse with the, you know, the, the, with the abyss as much as the other side, you know. And I just, I found that really helpful to go, right, I'm going to keep it light. Not to lessen the meaning or what it is I'm putting into the world, but as a trigger to say it's okay and it's not as important as you think it is. Lighten it, put it out. And the exchange that happens with the world as a result of that is it's like a computer. You clear the cache and then you're ready to go again. And I've really enjoyed that. And if I could just quickly add on to that, the other thing was I just wanted to shout out all the other fellows and people on the fellowship because I was just to follow on from what you guys have said, because just I had no idea that I would feel such a deep sense of connection. And I'm like, wow, I've met sort of 15 other peers who I feel like I'm on a journey with in the next phase of my career. And coming from the arts where you're either with loads of people on tour or on set, or you're in kind of desperate aloneness, which is very similar to, I think, a lot of what a lot of founders and solopreneurs go through. That's a real ace to take out of it and a great experience. I'm very grateful for that.

Thank you. Thanks for sharing that. What about you, Aishwarya? What's your advice?

Yeah, I think Jim mentioned it as fun. For me, it comes very close in terms of saying this cohort becomes a way for you to explore what gives you joy. So I would say like, just as you start the cohort, it would be great if you can make like a list of all the things that would give you joy. And this could be anything that you want to do in terms of just building it out. It could be a tool, it could be, you know, music, it could be art, it could be makeup, whatever it is. I think just making a list of all the things that gives you joy. And as a second step, as you go through the cohort and meet these people and like interact with UKP, just be open to doing one new thing, right? And in my case, I think the one new thing was Taking a shot to figure out how do you monetize or how do you basically like talk to a new person on the show? Like if I'm always like picking a certain personality on the show, like how do I go outside of that zone? How do I just pick some interesting lessons from the fellow folks? Like, you know, talking to Varun gives me a whole new perspective about manufacturing, but that does not mean that you can't apply that to your own work. So how do you just use the experiences of folks around you? And what's that one new thing that you would want to explore, which I think you can give credit to yourself as well as teach to others by the end of the cohort. So it's like you feel good about accomplishing this and you feel good about having explored this. And that doesn't mean that it ends up in a good or bad way. It's just the fact that you tried something new. So just make a list of all the things that gives you joy. And from that, just figure out what's one new thing that you can do.

I love that. Varun, what about you?

Yeah. So I think I would most likely be talking to people who have not yet started their building in public journey at all. So if you are at the stage where you're either seeing that, hey, BIPF 3 is open, it's kind of like if you have a doubt whether you should jump on that bandwagon or not, my thing is nothing to lose in starting. It's kind of— and the fellowship is in kind of a way is like kind of throwing you into the deep end of the pool with lifeguards around you to make sure that you don't go down, you know, because it's like— Like, even that first tree was okay, very simple thing. It's like, okay, nobody's gonna care, nobody's ever gonna see it. But then once you start getting to your second, third, or fifth tree, like, you get— you end up being very conscious of what you do. And then as you keep going through it, then it's kind of like, hey, okay, fine, let me see if this works, let me see if that works. And that 6 weeks is like the perfect amount of time to really know if this is something that's for you. Mm-hmm. And also, it also had— it will also help to say that everybody has their own unique experiences. So you never know your own experiences, who else it'll help. Exactly. So there's nothing— you just going through this journey, you can connect with many other people, like many people, say the 30+ people inside the cohorts and itself, as well as now I'm trying to do 20, 30 other people on LinkedIn, Twitter itself, that, hey, I like your content. And just the other day, I was learning facts bought crazy advertisements and how they're unique. And now when I am talking to my digital marketing guys, I'm like, hey, why is your digital marketing not giving me any emotion? I need emotion to come into this. So like, I mean, that has— so I guess you don't quite know what you're going to get out of it until you really jump into the pool. And so, and this is a safe place to do that. And everybody's kind of doing it for their own things, but they're all doing it for the same purpose. most of them are doing it in order to help someone else. And I know that you are doing it to kind of keep— to encourage more of a Build in Public thing, because you have seen how it's benefited you and things like that. So I think that's what I would say to me, let's say 6 weeks and let's say 5 days before that, before I was kind of thinking, should I apply? Should I not apply?

We just had one call. Varun and I just

had one call and I was like, within like 2 hours, he immediately He signed up and joined. I was like, whoa, this guy really is a quick decision maker. You know, thank you, Warren. Thank you for taking a chance on the fellowship and on me that day. And also thank you for the way you carried yourself, you know, through this 6 weeks and beyond. I think the other thing, I know you guys haven't touched on it, but I'll wrap on this is that I genuinely care about the people who are coming in. That's why I don't simply let people just swipe the credit card and come in through a payment You know, window. There's usually a one-on-one with me, and it sounds ridiculous to say this out loud, but actually I'm vetting people, like even though they're my customers, clients, quote unquote, because to me all money is not the same, right? There's many ways you can make money, and at this point where I'm in my career, there's many ways I can make money. So it's money is not the answer, but I care about the give-first mentality. Can I sense this quickly? And this is, I think, one of my superpowers. Either it's a character flaw, or if it's a gift, I don't know, but I can very quickly assess assess someone's community fit. You know, would this be a person who will enrich the community either through giving and sharing or through their presence? You know, their aura, their presence, the way they carry themselves. And if I have a sense of like, you know, this might not be a good fit for them, I've said to 2 or 3 people in the last 2 cohorts before joining that this may not be the right place for you. And it's okay. You know, you can still follow the content, whatever, whatever, join us through other venues. But when you are coming into BIIPF, to me, it's kind of like you're stepping into a sacred Like I said, like a dojo, like a martial arts thing. And I want the people who are more enthusiastic, who are learning, who are curious to come in because it's this place of teaching. You know, like the Jedi Council, right, Jim? Like you talk about the Star Wars. You want— I want Jedi. Like the world needs more Jedi. You know, we have too many dementors and cynics and, you know, I mean, naysayers. I feel like I don't need them in the Slack. I'm happy for them to be on Reddit or 4chan. Or, you know, or Twitter or whatever. So that's the intent. Anyway, this was a blast. I feel like we could go another hour easily talking to you all. I've learned a lot about your backstories, some of the anecdotes which I never, you know, got a chance to listen to. It's an honor to have been able to, you know, spend the 6 weeks with you, teach you, get your feedback, go on this journey with you. And now it's been another honor to have you on the pod. So thanks everybody. Let's—

last words. I think the teaching is over. The teaching is not over yet. I will be at least.

Last words, you all get one soundbite. Jim, what do you want to say?

Well, what I would say is KP is actually about you because I think that you have— you meet certain people whose sort of energy walks before them and you have a win-win mentality. You are not a gatekeeper of your knowledge or your network. And this is something that I've been really inspired by and very thankful for because you've introduced me to some absolutely extraordinary people who I'm in contact with now. And I'm like, well, not only do you teach this stuff, but you live it. And you really encourage those that come into your circle or your aura, you really give to them. And you can't fake that. You can't pretend it. You just feel that from someone. And That in my experience is too rare, and I'm very thankful for that. So it's that win-win attitude. Thank you, KP. Thank you, guys.

Thank you. That's you know too sweet. Warren, any last words? We'll go to Ashwarya at last.

Yeah. So I think that the six weeks was an experience that I would not have done without the support of you and the BIPF community. And I was just chatting with a friend over the weekend two days ago, and I was telling each. It's been about two months since I chatted with him last. He was in the U.S. So I was like, "Hey, I'm on Twitter now. I'm posting three to four times a day." And he's like, "That's not what you do." So I mean, it's it was very funny to kind of kind of see like, "Hey, what what are you doing on Twitter?" So so you know, I mean, just start kind of once you explain kind of what it is, it's like, "Okay, yeah, let's see where it goes." And it's like, "Hey, I have 41 followers as of today. So we'll see. It's six weeks that I can get 40. Then let's see. Let's see how it compounds and see." who I am able to resonate with and build up that social capital and help others that might be going on the same journey. And I think— The other thing I actually—

Varun, the other thing I love about you is that you genuinely don't care about the analytics and the metrics as much, right? You cannot be having as much fun and going through the journey if you looked at it too closely, like every day, if you're like microscopically looking at the numbers too much. And I think this is a problem a lot of people have early on, right? When they're like getting started, They struggle with the concept of, oh, I only have 42, or I only have 21. But they're forgetting the fact that I am one of your 42. You have me. Like, you know, people always think of these arbitrary numbers, but they forget that among my followers, like for example, my scenario, I have Gary Tan, the president of YC. That's like, Jim, in your world, that's like having the president of Universal following you. You know, and he follows like 200 people. Like it's just wild, right? So all numbers are not Not same. So it's not just the quantitative, like Aishwarya. It's not just the oh you only have like whatever XYZ. It's about who is in that group, right? It could be CNN's president watching you, right? Like Aishwarya. So it's like you never know who's in that group. So having the contextuality around numbers is so important in my perspective. Yeah.

Anyway, I think that I'll just wrap up just by saying that at some point in the near or far future, someone's going to message me. And DM me on Twitter and say, hey, thank you. I'm not, I'm not gonna say you're welcome. I'm gonna be like, it's not me you have to thank. There's another guy you should know. I'm just like the guy who was pushed to— not pushed to do it, but got motivated to do it. I was like, hey, I— so

yeah, that's so sweet. I had the most fun being an accountability buddy with you because, you know, I think I shared this with you too one-on-one. You have such a great knack of writing You know, and you know, you took that and you really kind of ran with it. You know, I feel like a lot of people, like I mean in your shoes, maybe who are like manufacturing CEOs, I don't think can write the way you write. I'm not bullshitting. I'm just genuine. And what I've done is I've just taught you the hooks, the engagement hooks, and like how to write like in a way where you open curiosity loops and close the loops, and only like some of the basics, and rest you ran with it. So I'm really you know happy about that. Why should you last words? And we can wrap.

Yeah, for me, it's the way you build a community. I guess it's, it's not oftentimes as we think about what do you end up taking from people or what you end up learning from others, but I think it's what you end up giving. So this whole cohort of folks, it's like the first thought that came to my mind is, okay, what is something that I can share from my journey? It's something that could help others who are probably just looking to learn or just looking to kickstart their journey. And I have seen that a lot in KP. And I think for the folks who are just going to start with the Cohort 3, it's going to be amazing to like look at an example of a person who is a giver and who is actually genuinely interested in you, genuinely interested in helping you help others. And I think to me, that's, that's the, that's the way you build a community, and that's the way you meet folks and, and, you know, befriend them and be there to support support each other. So the fact that you can be a giver and you can get to work with a giver like KP is the best way to begin your journey in building in public.

Thank you. With that said, send me your Venmo links, all of you. Send me your PayPal links, all of you, so I can just disburse the amount I've been holding ransom. Just kidding. This is way more than gracious, way more than, I don't know, I imagined. So thank you. I knew it was going to turn into KP Fest or KP Love Fest towards the end, so I tried my best to like, you know, surface other questions that are a little bit objective. But for the listeners who tuned in, you, you came for this, right? You, you knew

it was going

to be some

version of the Caving Silent Club moments.

No, no, I just like to say there's no way I'm coming back unless you get that bandana, Jimmy.

Now bring back the band with even like the— what do you call these I had these spikes too, man. Oh my God, I tried so hard. I wish— I didn't know all I needed was a friend like you who was an actual musician to be cool, right? Like, I could just say, hey, you know what, I'm with the band, even though I have zero musical talent. Anyway, thank you so much. Love you all and hope to see you in a future session again. Bye-bye.

Bye-bye, guys.

Thanks.

See you. Thanks, thanks, KP. Bye.