Why Founders Need A Community Around Them (feat. BIPF3 Fellows)

All right. Hello everybody. I'm KP and welcome to yet another episode of the Build in Public podcast. And today I am super, super, super thrilled. I got 4 of our brightest minds in the Build in Public Fellowship from BIPF 3, the 3rd cohort that just wrapped up a couple weeks ago. And I'm super, super excited and stoked to have Sangeersh, Andrew, Souk, and Tal to join us, you know, in this episode. This is gonna be a fun Build in Public Fellowship-themed episode. They're very diverse, different. unique, yet somehow equally awesome people here. So we're going to dive into their stories, why they joined the fellowship, what did they really tangibly get out of it, and intangibly too, along with what their, you know, next steps are, you know, in their careers. So with that said, welcome to the show, everybody. Happy to be here. Awesome. So you could all speak at once, or you could maybe, based on the question that I'm asking, we could probably do an alphabetical so that everybody gets a chance. Right. So Andrew, obviously you'll go first and I think it's going to be Sang second and Souk and then Tal. By the way, Tal's so dedicated and committed that she's joined us from her car. We love you, Tal. Thank you. That's some commitment. All right. So let's do a round of like who you are, like in terms of a brief, brief background, like, you know, founder, coach, whatever your background is. And then what are you currently working on? So we'll start with Andrew.

Hi everyone. My name is Andrew. I'm currently a no-code coach, also known as the codeless coach. I've been building my coaching practice in the past 2 years. And currently I'm also building my podcast, The Joy of Building, and also experimenting with different ways of building in public, but also just exporting my creativity.

Andrew is in Brooklyn right now, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. And I can't wait for your podcast, The Joy of Building. I think I'm especially biased because you brought that to fruition, like sort of went from idea to fruition in the podcast fellowship that we ran a couple of weeks ago. So Obviously, I'm biased there, but it's been such a joy getting to know you, Andrew. Anyone who listens to you obviously feels this, you know, your voice has such a great depth and your energy is special. So, as Tal was joking before we went live, I think a lot of us are going to wait for that podcast to put it next to our bed and go to bed on that. I don't know if that's a great thing, but I'm just kidding. All right. So, who's next? Sang?

Yeah, that'd be me. Hi, my name is Sang and people know me as 10K Rotator on Twitter. So I'm an engineer from Sweden. Well, I'm originally from India, but I've been working in Sweden for the past 7 years now. So for— during the day, I build materials for a sustainability company called Treflon. And on nights and weekends, I'm building this fun project called fermi.fun. It's essentially to sort of initialize more Enrico Fermis out there to teach guesstimation. That's something that I find fun and that's what I'm building right now.

I love it. And it's right now, you're accept— it's in waitlist right now, correct?

Yeah, right now it's in waitlist, but a select few have the beta access.

Yes. He demoed us for folks who were listening or curious. It was amazing. And we're— I mean, a lot of us in the cohort can't wait for the public launch, you know, so excited. Souk.

Yeah. Hey everyone. My name is Souk. I am the co-founder and CTO of Enjin. Basically, we help high-growth tech startups get more customers through SEO. I've been a builder for the last 7, 8 years. I've built like 30 different projects, but really bought into the build-in-public journey a few years ago. And so KP's program really helped me sort of develop that part. And I'm also in Canada. So yeah.

That's awesome. We are— our Canadian side of, you know, our fellowship is growing really well. And if Souk just mentioned Enjin, which some of you may recognize. The name that's familiar is Edgar from Enjin too. So Edgar was BIPF 1, one of the OG Canadian founders who believed in the fellowship. And so really grateful that he recommended the fellowship highly. And now you're part of the third one too. What I love about you, Souk, and I said this in our sessions too, you're so action-minded that I think within the first 2 or 3 sessions, You started applying the thing that I was sharing in the class, which is about, you know, share one tactical tip every day. And almost like you took 2 steps ahead of the rest of the class, I feel. And then it became like you became the case study of how to do it right. And so they, if any of you follow Sook, you'll know this, like he does this thing where, you know, SEO tip 1 or tip 9 or tip 24 or whatever. And it's always a punchy, short, actionable, yet valuable tip. I mean, folks who are like super deep in SEO world probably know so many of these, just like with anything else. However, for someone like me who's not so deep, You know, every day is a great reminder. It's kind of like a little tidbit, you know? So thank you for that practice. And, you know, something that I think now a lot of, you know, the next cohort fellows that I'm trying to recommend them, pick a niche like SEO or whatever, and then just kind of put out the tips. Okay, last but not the least, Tal.

Hi, yeah, fun fact, I'm actually about to become Engine's newest customer because they actually made SEO not terrifying to me. I actually am Engine's newest customer. They've actually made SEO not terrifying for me, except they don't like that my landing page is in Bubble. Apparently, Bubble doesn't play nice with others, so I'll have to switch to Webflow first. But for you, Souk, I'll do it. But anyway, to my intro, my name is Paul, and I am a longtime tech product manager. Um, but after about 15 years, decided to strike out on my own and build ApplyAll.com, which automates the job search. You basically give me your resume and your money, and you get applied to over 200 relevant jobs at once with the help of some friendly bots and AI. And I am based in Los Angeles, California, currently from the road in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Yeah, with the Amish.

With the Amish. All right, all right. So let's start with the question that I've asked you before you joined the fellowship, but I think it's worth sort of resurfacing again. What were some challenges you had with respect to building in public or building your personal brand online before you joined the fellowship? Let's start with Andrew again.

For me, it's interesting because while KP, we, I've been, you know, working with you before for OD&C. Used to be that cohort learning where I learned how to kind of build a no-code project from take it from 0 to 1. And I also have been following your journey for a long time. So in terms of opting into this build in public ethos, that's something that I've always believed. I knew how important it is to be transparent, to be consistent, to show up daily, to talk about the ins and outs, especially the wins and losses. But for me, the There always seems to be one barrier, which was, at least for me, it was like still like a big fear. I understood intellectually what it means to do it, but there was always a fear of like, well, I'm still afraid, or like, I don't really know how to take that leap. And that was the— that was, I think, what was the fear I was able to overcome through this fellowship.

Yeah. And on the theme or on the topic of challenges, I think we're collecting all the challenges that you all had. Maybe that'll resonate with some of the other listeners who are listening to you. Sangharsh, what was your challenge or one or two?

Absolutely. It was actually 2 things, kind of resonated with what Andrew said as well. The first thing was obviously tactical. If you're a solo founder trying to build something, trying to put something out there, everyone says you need to build a product, but then no one really tells you what to do after. Everyone talks about execution, but like there's no real like clear picture of what execution looks like. And a lot of people talk about like, you know, startups being like a media company in itself. You gotta market it. So that's exactly what I was looking for. Like, I stumbled across your tweet on Twitter and I was like, hey, let me just apply and like try to learn this skill from this person who's trying to build in public. So that was the tactical thing. And the second thing, of course, was like, it's scary to like, you know, like put something out there in front of people and like, you know, like what are people gonna think? What are my friends gonna think? You know, like all those mental hurdles, of course. And I think the fellowship really helped me, like, you know, it sort of gave me proof of work of how you guys were doing it, have been doing it. And I was like, hey, maybe I can just learn from these guys and try to do it, you know. So those were the two things. Yeah.

Yeah. We're gonna sort of dedicate a little bit of time around how you took it to the next level. I've been— I've said this a couple of times, you're so prolific in terms of your output. It's like when I see the way you tweet, It's very, very close to the way I tweet in the sense that it's just completely unhinged, like in the most positive way, right? It's like completely like, I don't want to say like it's like crazy, but like just completely like fearless, unabashed, which is my style, right? If you see the way I tweet, I mean, there are times when I want to be formal, when I want to like, today's announcement when we made, it's all formal, thoughtful, but I feel like people over-index on trying to be too formal. on these platforms and really about what majority of the audience are looking for is a sense of human connection. You know, so I think you took that advice around make a tweet like it's an iMessage, you know, message, and you took it to the next level where every tweet you put out is kind of like you messaging me personally, which I love. So, Sukh, what about you? What were your challenges?

Yeah, before I started with the program, I was actually, I was tweeting quite a bit and I was bought into the whole build in public ethos as well. But my challenge was I was really tweeting on a daily basis. basically being like, oh, I just got an insight, let me just type that in, and just putting that out there. The growing fear in the back of my mind was, what if one day I don't have anything to say, right? And that's happened multiple times. So that always dissuaded me from continuing to tweet 'cause I knew that day was coming one day, like at some point in a week or so, that day is coming. And so what happens then? And that dissuaded me from just taking the step today. So that really set me back. So when I started working with the fellowship, I was really able to see how do you build that constant thinking muscle that just never goes out of fashion, but having like a library, just something that you can fall back to just in case one day you have a lazy day and you don't know what to do. You can just grab, go in there, grab an easy bite and just put it out there. That really makes me feel a lot safer. I know I can put something out. So that was sort of the challenge that I was facing beforehand.

Yeah, the content bank, you know, session really helped that one, right? Ever since I did that, Tal has been harassing me to do more content bank sessions. She's like, Kippy, when are we doing the content bank thing? Like, because I need to fill up my gas tank kind of thing. So I was like, wow, you know, Tal.

And your answer is?

And the answer is coming soon. Which, by the way, for the 4th cohort, I am swapping out a lot of the mastermind sessions, which were a little bit open-ended, like open talks, kind of like this, open-ended discussions into a lot more, you know, content banking and um, just Shipit sessions. Maybe we should just give you an honorary title for them, like Tal sessions or something, you know. But, um, yeah, I was thinking about you the other day when I was doing the curriculum. So, Tal, what about you? What were your one or two challenges that you had before the program?

Oh gosh, which to pick? Um, I think one of them was that my— so much of my sense of identity was centered around this kind of like self-proclaimed like allergic to social media type. I quit when I was around 25 because I found myself a little too addicted and have pretty much spent the past 10 years kind of avoiding it. And so I think it was for me a challenge. Really? You know, I knew as a solopreneur that I really needed a sense of community and really needed also the social accountability of Having, I think, others by my side, but really had to reconcile that with my sense of identity and feel like I wasn't just going to be, you know, yet another contributor to just, you know, information overload on the internet and more, as you call it, KP, soulless drivel and bullshit and buzzwords, right? Because that, that's so antithetical to every fiber of my being. And then I think a second one. It was also just the accountability in general, right? Like my ADHD brain is, you know, talks, you know, talks a lot of game, but like, doesn't— isn't great at creating habits or actually do things like tweet daily, etc. And so I think really having, you know, I'm the kind of person for whom a structured program creates a level of accountability that I'm never really able to create for myself. And I think You know, made me really excited about Build in Public is kind of acting as my, I don't know, paid grown-up babysitter to some degree to force me to do something that was important to me, but that I just never found myself prioritizing.

Yeah, I struggle with that too, as you know, right? ADHD sort of thing is so powerful. I mean, even Satya, shout out, and a few others, especially as you get busy and you sort of play the role of a founder, which is wearing so many hats, the easiest thing to fall off the plate is content or building in public. Public, or, you know, and ironically, that is the most long, longstanding valuable thing you could do for your company and the brand.

So especially, and not to mention the perfectionism before Build in Public.

That's another one.

I mean, every tweet had to be a magnum opus. I'd spend like 3 hours rewriting a single sentence and then be like, no, it's not good enough. And I'm, I give up. And like, that was to me, I think.

And, and then you met Sang and you were like, oh, this guy. No, I was saying, and then you met Sang in the fellowship and you were like, oh, if this guy can Eat something from the toilet. Just kidding. You're like, oh, I think I could be easy on myself.

I totally do that.

Haven't we all? Okay. So yeah, perfection syndrome is another big one. Again, another struggle that I had to overcome. It's got much better now. I think the ADHD struggle is still there. It's an active demon that I have to tackle week over week or day over day. But I'm sure many of you feel the same way. So the follow-up to that is with this context in mind, which is these challenges that you all had individually, What were some of the goals that you had when you started the fellowship? You know, what did you come to the fellowship with, you know, in terms of goals transformations you were seeking?

Well, for me, I think initially I set like a definitely like a numerical outcome that I was going for, which was, I believe the goal I had was like, let's say 3 tweets daily. I think I even said something like 1 LinkedIn post, 1 week. I think those were the ones I started with, but what eventually transpired, what To me, it was even bigger than that, which was this, this almost this catch-all proficiency of how to do it consistently, but also across just any platform. It wasn't even no longer about like, for me, at least the number of tweets or do it here versus LinkedIn, or if someone was more interested in, let's say, building audience on Instagram, it was just about the mindset behind that. Mm-hmm. And what that accountability, how those content bank feeds into it, and eventually how those automation tools just make it a little bit easier for us on days that we're, you know, we just have a little bit little willpower, right?

Right.

And with all that confidence, all that knowledge, that was also a transpired outcomes. Like without the BIPF, I would have never had the seed of thought like, oh, you can do a podcast, that's, you can launch it. It's not that hard. And doing the podcast made me realize that like, oh, I love talking. I love asking questions. So there were so many like hard skill set wins that I got. The outcomes, like actually doing them on a daily basis, but also those soft skills, right? Those, that confidence, that transformation within me, that experience.

I love it. I mean, I think that we could end the podcast right here. That's the biggest, that's the biggest testimonial for any program. Forget BIPF. No, I think when you touched on that, I just want to reflect on one thing where when you, when we all join a new program or when we all try to like, you know, even it's a fitness program or an education program, we always have this like, oh, let's have these SMART goals, S-M-A-R-T kind of thing, right? In my life, I realized that those are actually rookie goals. You know, if you want to be an elite pro level, you really— what you should be seeking is the complete outside-in, inside-out mindset shift. Because it's great to do like, I don't know, like lose 20 pounds, you know, in a summer boot camp. But what about the next 80 summers? What about the next 40, you know, winters, right? So the real inner transformation may not be like tangible, but the thing that really should have almost like sets you up like at a whole new level. And one example that I just want, when you said these numbers, you know, is I can promise, I'm sure I'm speaking on behalf of you, but I noticed that even if you did 17 days in a row of LinkedIn posts a day and checked the box there, that is not the same joy that you got from doing 4 episodes of your podcast, which you never thought you would ever do before the program. Isn't that crazy, right? Yeah. Like you never thought you would be a podcaster, the identity, and here you are with the DSLR camera and this great lighting. And now you, you know, you had like Danny Miranda on your show. Yeah, it's,

it's so cool. And, and just to expand from that, which is, you know, we've also talked about, you know, the transformation of, you know, Twitter from X.com and acknowledging maybe sometimes the, the scary uncertainty behind all these things. But by not focusing on these numbers and just realizing that like the confidence, it's like, wow, whatever happens, whether it's podcasts, whether it's a new platform, In 10 years, like, all that is no longer as scary as before because we've become the type of person that can just know what it takes and know the mindset to just have fun with it and just to make it serve us and the lives we want to have.

When Elon Musk took over Twitter last year, and then there was like 3 or 4 months of like crazy, you know, dramatic changes that they were making, the whole team. For a while, I thought that like Twitter would be complete dumpster fire and be eliminated completely, like somehow would implode or something. And so many people around my peer group were like worried that all these hundreds of thousands of followers they have, you know, at the time I think I had 40,000. They're like, what are you gonna do when it goes to zero? What are you gonna do? You're like, oh, all this work. Frankly, and I sound so bombastic when I say this out loud, I didn't give a shit. I didn't even worry about it for one second because to me it was not, you know, the 40,000 point zero zero decimal whatever is For me, it was the skill that I learned, you know, and the contract I had with myself where every day I wake up and want to be a creator, want to create. In a world that's filled with consumers and people who are lurkers and spectators, when you wake up and you create something out there, even if it's one tweet or one post or video, whatever, you're in the top 1%, you know? And so if you just do it strategically based on your business goals, like Sukh, if he does it through SEO, obviously because it's— engine is SEO, it's no wonder, right? Like 6 months down the line, he'll have great following. But the skill and the discipline and the mindset I think is valuable. The platform platform and the nuance is learnable. I'm not saying, and we always talk about this, right? We still study the platform, but I don't think anybody in our fellowship is so worried about the changes that they're making algorithms. I'm like, so be it, you know? Anyway, so that was, yeah. Sang, what about you? What were some goals you had and any specific outcomes you wanted or did you achieve any specific outcomes?

So for me, like I did not have like a clear, like SMART goal, like you guys said. I was more sort of like open about it, but what I really wanted from this fellowship was to scale as a founder and to scale like scale Fermi, for example. So that's what I was looking for. And like Build in Public was sort of like essentially helping me achieve that thing.

Yeah, that's very kind. Tell me a little bit about scale that you achieved for Fermi. I feel like you had a couple of great mini launches. It was initially launched on the first day or second day, and then you had the other big launch, right?

Yeah, exactly. Like I haven't really like launched it yet, but I've been Launching every, every week almost, uh, you know, every week, uh, right?

Like, yeah, it's all the mini launches.

Yeah, it's been like a series of, uh, mini launches and like, uh, like, uh, yeah, there's gonna be a big launch hopefully soon, uh, but, uh, like, uh, Build in Public essentially helped me with like structuring, uh, how I'm supposed to scale because, yeah, like it was real, it gave me like a really good examples of how to do it. And like, you know, when I joined the fellowship, I was actually looking to like, you know, find a tribe of peers, you know, who I could sort of like, you know, look up to and kind of co-build what I'm like. It's almost like you're at your computer like building this thing and like putting it out there and you're kind of like alone. But if you also have other people who are doing something similar like that, that really helps. Yeah. And just talking to them and like sharing experiences, right? So, so that's something that I found through That's

awesome. What about you, Suk?

Yeah, for me, I came in as a creator, but I wanted to be a top creator. And so KP, I looked at you being like the person that's figured everything out.

Remember the Mount Rushmore conversation we had?

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think you were chatting and you basically put in my head that you want to be on the Mount Rushmore of whatever niche that you want to be. So I was SEO, so I want to be on the Mount Rushmore for SEO. And so to do that, I had to learn SEO. a way to get there. You just start, right? And so the real mind shift that I had was understanding like that a top creator also has days when they don't get enough likes, right? Top creator also puts out offers, puts out asks, and doing all those things isn't something that's like, you know, it's not that if you're a top creator that you've had everything sort of given to you. You have to still ask, you have to still do the legwork.

I just did that this morning.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Um, I think you're doing that for BAPF right now, BAPF 4. So just knowing that and understanding those lessons within 6 weeks versus 6 years of learning the same thing, there's just a different transformation. And so that's what I came here to learn. How do I become a top creator? Or more importantly, how does a top creator think?

Yeah.

Um, yeah. And then so based on that, I ended up putting out an offer for being on podcasts a few times. And this is the third one I'm doing in the last 2 weeks.

Nice.

So it worked out really well.

That's brilliant. Please invite Sukh on your podcast if you guys have, you know, a podcast and wanna chat with the founder. His story's fantastic. And I'll try to link that tweet that you made in our show notes because you made like a great sort of summary of your bio tweet, which is really brilliant. You know, I wanna say one thing about this, which is just, it's one of those really powerful lessons That you have to only learn one time. You don't need to learn again and again. When I worked really closely, you know, at On Deck and even generally like in the last 2, 3 years, I got a chance to sort of see the inner workings of some of these billionaires slash some of these really top, like top 1%, either investors or founders or even Gary Vee, you know. And I realized that, oh my God, they're going through the same shit that I'm going through, you know. And it's just, it really humanizes them, you know, and also makes you Kind of disgusted that you didn't take action for 12 years, right? Because I was like, oh my God, like they still have to wake up and put out content. Like Gary Vee still was having 8 cameras when I recorded with him. And he was talking to me about how like, we're going to cut it from here. We're going to do this. I'm like, oh my God, that's how I talk to my editor. Exactly how I talk. You know? So after 15 years in the game, he still has to think about what are we putting out next Monday? What are we putting out next Tuesday? Do we have it ready or not? I'm like, oh, so this doesn't go away. So nobody can take away sort of the pain of the work. So it is painful if you think of it as pain, but you have to find your own unique torture, right? I think Seinfeld talks about what is the torture that is acceptable to you. And so for me, that's podcasting. For me, that's running fellowships. And for many of you, it's different things, but it really humanized. So that's one thing that I learned. And I frankly almost thought that I'm never going to do any programs with any of these top 1% people after that, because I was like, I know the lesson, I know the point. Like, I get it now. Let me just go execute for a decade and come back and like, now let's chill. You know, I frankly think, I mean, it sounds so dumb to say this out loud, but I feel like if you do BIPF, I think that should be your last program, you know, unless you start your own fellowship. 'Cause there's nothing else that we are all hiding that you don't know of, you know? So sorry.

I think it also gives you the bit of like, it gives you the comfort that what you're doing is the exact, is the right thing.

Yeah.

It's not that you haven't figured it out, it's just that you keep going on the same path and you'll I remember the minute we talked about, you know, putting out your asks, putting out your offers, I ended up putting it out on Twitter, just being like, offer, I'm looking for my 10 first customers for Engine. And I was so surprised that within a week and a half, we were able to sign up 10 paid customers, which I would've never been able to do on my own. I would've been like, there's no way. I think the customers are supposed to find me automatically.

Yeah.

If I have like the 40K followers, which is not true. I think I'm at 2.5K, and it was just incredible and just opened up my mind to the lesson.

I think, you know, I frankly think the other thing is about we all would really benefit from kind of doing a mini apprenticeship with some of these top people. I really think, you know, that's one thing I wish I did because, you know, again, I couldn't get a chance. Sheer bullcrap that, you know, a lot of these people have to go through just because that's just part of the game and how it's just normal. I think I think accepting what we think is outrageous from outside as just normal from the inside is the biggest win I feel, because you still have to be shameless. You still have to make the ask. You still cannot judge yourself too harshly. You still cannot, you know, like there's no magical, like even for BIPF, there's no magical wand I can wave or whatever to fill up my pipeline. I still have to hustle. Like the other day on Friday, I posted a tweet about offering 20 free 30-minute coaching calls for anybody who signed up for that form. So that is my way of, A, customer discovery, right? Because I feel like there are still some parts that I want the program to pivot towards that can solve really well, that solve the problems really well. And part 2 is that I can warm up these leads and connections so that maybe when they're ready in the future, they may consider the fellowship. Which by the way, I thought 4 years ago that if I have the brand, I don't have to do this shit.

Right.

And let me break it to you. I'm sure you all know this, like, no, it's still the same thing. It never goes away. So you may have more leverage. The leverage is of course compounding. So I think 4 years ago, Sukh, if I made the same tweet, I would probably have gotten 3 or 4 people to apply. I got 45 responses. So compared to 20 that I wished for. So I think The leverage definitely compounds, but like you still have to do the thing, which is to me frustrating, you know, because I'm like, oh my God, at what is it, $100,000? Is it $200,000? At what point will I ever say, ah, thank God, you know, I don't need to wake up today and put myself out there. You know, the answer is I think never, you know. So, okay. So Tal looks like got disconnected. So we'll bring her back. But I have another question for all of you.

Before you go, KB, I just wanted to add one thing that I thought of when you were talking about leverage. Like I read and reread like Almanac of Naval Ravikant.

Yeah.

And he kept talking about like 2 forms of leverage. One is like code and media.

Yeah.

And I always wondered what he meant like by media leverage. But like more and more that I've been like looking at your work and what you've been doing with the fellowship, it's pretty much that. It's like double-click on that media leverage. This is how you build media leverage. So this was like a great framework Framework for like, if you're looking to build like media leverage, which I was, and that's how the program helped me as well.

That's awesome. And it's a journey too. It's an odyssey, right? It's like, I feel like all of you had a chapter 1 of a 300-page heavy thick book that you finished. And for the rest of our lives, you know, we have to kind of travel together. And, you know, as you know, like I'm always open to sharing ideas and, you know, brainstorming or whatever you want. But The work never stops. The work never ends. Hopefully that was evident to you that the teacher has to practice. I think that's another thing that I didn't know, that if I have to be— also, I take a lot of pride in that, as you guys know. When I tell you, hey, you should shoot your shot, I don't hypothetically tell you something without me following it next week or next day. I take a lot of pride in being the— the analogy I have is if I'm a kung fu master, I should kick everyone's ass. Yeah. Otherwise, I can't teach. What's the point? So I try to put myself in positions where I'm stretching beyond my comfort zone and trying new things. And this voice in our head that Sukh referred to earlier, we all have that. Even I have that, which is, am I going down the right path for the best of my abilities and talents? Because the other annoying thing is once you discover that you do have some talent, Like you do have some gifts. There's another annoying demon that sits next to you. So Andrew, just a heads up for you, as you discover that you love podcasting and you do have the talent, and I mean talent as in like you can produce a decent show, and after 77 episodes like me, the part that's annoying is you look at it and it's quality and you're like sitting there thinking, what am I not doing that this is not in front of a million eyeballs? Yeah. Am I doing injustice to the work because I'm not turning some other stone or like some, you know, maybe I should be doing something else. So there's this constant voice in the back of my head that tells me, are you sure? Are you on the right path? You know, I should, but nobody can answer that for me, right? Like none of my peers can answer. And if I talk to any of my mentors who are 10 years or 15 years or maybe 40 years ahead of me, all they say is this one freaking line that is so frustrating, which is, Just keep going. You're on the right track. Sure. That's what I tell you guys too, which is so frustrating. I know. You're on the right track. Just keep going. So deep down, I had to spend some time with me and ask, what is this sort of voice? What is it really seeking? And I realized that the voice is seeking to shut down uncertainty of the outcome. The voice is seeking the certainty of the outcome. The voice wants a million views so that I can just peacefully go to bed thinking, okay, I did I have the world's recognition. The funny thing is when I have the million, I will be comparing myself to the 10 million people, right? So that voice never stops. The voice that wants certainty never goes away. And so when you send out that email, Sukh, about InGen to like 100 people, you know, from YC, this batch, for example, there's no guarantee that they'll open. There's no guarantee they'll come on a sales call. There's no guarantee that they'll book and find and pay. So So it's like literally there's no guarantee. And so that, I think coming to terms with the uncertainty that comes with the territory of being a founder, I feel like is the biggest painful transformation that I'm going through right now is that I hoped by now that I don't have to worry about uncertainty. And I think it's never going to happen.

It's great to have that as a reminder. Plus I think even the journey is awesome. The journey of like getting to the million listens is awesome. Once you get to the million listens, There's nothing else for you to do. You figured it out.

Yes.

So you can't do anything.

Yes.

Right. So I feel like it's just always awesome to enjoy the journey and just maybe like push the journey a little bit further, you know what I mean? Because you can continue to do the things that you love every day. That's what being a founder really is about, is doing the— having the freedom of doing whatever you want. But that's a great reminder.

The work is the win. I mean, we know all this, but it's like when you're in the thick of trying to remind yourself. And that's why we need company. That's why we need camaraderie. That's why we need each other, right? Like, I know this in my head, but it only comes out when I'm telling this to Andrew. And when I tell him this, my immediate— my brain says, KP, you should follow this too. Same thing, vice versa. When you, Souk, tell me this, then it becomes imminent that you should follow that too. So we're all like— that's why this group of great ambitious founders is so important. I don't care if it's a fellowship or not, or I don't care if it's BIPF or some New program of it. I think it's very, very important, like all the mathematicians in the Oppenheimer movie and the physicists, it's important to be bundled together so you create breakthroughs. Because otherwise, like, it's very hard because you second-guess and you talk yourself out of things. The biggest threat that I have right now, the biggest that Andrew will have in 2 years is at 77 episodes of the podcast, there's nothing that stops me. I have even a podcast sponsor. So even monetary-wise, I'm like, good. The only thing that'll stop me is if I just throw in the towel and say, man, it's not working out. I'm not getting the results quick enough. Same thing with Souk. If you have 10 paid customers, literally that thing that stops you from 10 to 150 to 450 is if you just throw in the towel, because clearly the 10 have paid. So there's value. They're not faking it. So it's such a, you know, great reminder. Tal, so back to you. Are you back online?

I am.

So I got a question for you. What were some of the goals you had and what were some results you saw at the end of the fellowship?

Sure. Yeah. So I would say a big challenge for me is really figuring out how to solve the blank canvas problem, right? You feel like with all the information out there, everything that could be said has already been said. So what is left for me to say, right? And how do I say it? Where do you even start? Right?

Yeah.

So for me, this was just such a terrifying problem. It really, I found it completely paralyzing. And I think one particular challenge for me, or that, you know, I would say is related to my goal, is that my audience is not on Twitter or X. You know, I'm building something for job seekers, which are literally not fellow solopreneurs. And so my audience is on LinkedIn. But so is literally everyone I have ever known professionally in my life. So to some degree, it kind of feels like you're, you know, going to school in your underwear, right? Like, if you're— everyone you've ever known is gonna see you. Yeah. So I think one of my goals is really to figure out how do I reconcile that and really find a starting point, right? Like, how do I really gain purchase and start dipping my toes in, in a way that can allow me to, you know, both be true to myself, but then, you know, but also breaks my paralysis, right? Breaks my paralysis, both psychological, because everyone I know professionally is watching, or at least that was my perception, right? And then also my paralysis from a creative standpoint, like where do I even start with this blank canvas? And so I would say professionally that was my goal going into Build in Public. And then I would say personally, a lot of my goal was really addressing, I think, the sense of isolation I'd been feeling as a solopreneur, especially as one that was not really using social media. Because I knew if anything, you know, putting aside ADHD and procrastination, if anything was going to break me and make me, you know, decide to go and get a job again, it was going to be that isolation. I'm still, you know, I'm naturally an extrovert and sitting alone all day is tough. So I knew that if I couldn't find community and if I couldn't again find a way to vocalize what I was doing and who I am and, you know, find ways to build conversation, to have these conversations in a way that felt real to me, that I wouldn't survive no matter, no matter how well my product is doing otherwise, my mental health wouldn't make it.

Right. So in the fellowship, did you see any results that kind of led you towards, you know, a better outcome or a better place? What were any, as you look back, what were some outcomes you were proud of, results you were proud of?

For sure. And I can share some really tangible ones. You know, KP, you did a session about LinkedIn specifically one day. And, you know, after one of your extremely, you know, really sick slides, your slides are super tangible, extremely, I don't know, they're very actionable. And they're very much like, you know, they're not theoretical and hand-wavy. They're like, do this, do this, do this. this. And after that, you had a session that's like, cool, we're all gonna write a LinkedIn post. And here's the format. It's the number one thing X user, you know, X audience, you know, what was it? The number one thing, the number one mistake blank group of people make that prevents them from Y outcome. And you just kind of handed us that template and said, go write a LinkedIn in post. And that was so wonderful because, you know, I don't want this broad creative canvas. I just kind of want to be told what to do, right? To me, that's not always, but when I'm starting out with something, just being given that constraint is so, so helpful because it's very easy for me to find something related to what I'm doing that falls into that formula. And in fact, suddenly I found I actually have a lot to say and could write multiple posts in this template. And you made us all write it for like 15 minutes. And I kind of had a forcing function. I couldn't procrastinate either. And I had an exact template to follow. So, you know, can't really screw that up. And so I would say that that really helped me kind of break the seal on LinkedIn and in a really, you know, constrained way that frankly didn't require me to like be fully vulnerable with my entire professional network on day one. I just had to tell them all the things they do wrong in their resume, right? That doesn't require putting myself out there too much, and I have a lot to say about that. So I think that really helped me, you know, find a way to dip my toes into LinkedIn and solve my blank canvas problem without having to, you know, like spin, you know, spin in circles for 10 hours trying to think of what to write. Right. And then on the personal front, I think that was really next level for me because so much of building in public, it turns out, is actually the replies and the conversations. And I learned that even if I was often still feeling paralyzed about posting, it was really easy for me to respond. Yeah. And to respond to a small cohort of 7 to 10 people, all of whom are just like full-time cheerleaders for one another, came really, really easily to me. didn't ask much of me on days that I just couldn't find something to, you know, tweet about on my own. Right. And so, and in doing that, I actually have built, I would say, like shockingly deep interpersonal relationships with people who I'd known for a sum total of like 2 weeks by that point. And that's something that I think is really, really unique to build in public. Because of KP, the people you attract and the kind of, I think, community that you're known for building. And I think people really self-select into this program based on the kind of—

The ethos. Yeah.

To me, has now created what I, you know, would consider 5 or 10 people that I feel like I could go to anytime if I needed advice or a brainstorming partner. Or frankly, even to just talk about any anxiety or depression or other issue I'm feeling, I feel like I could go to anyone in my cohort and they would jump at the opportunity to help. And, you know, that's what I think. That's what we lose when we go out on our own. We lose those relationships with coworkers, right? Right. And the people we go out to lunch with. So I think I've really found that equivalent in the Build in Public And that probably means more to me than any of the specific lessons and other tangible goals that I had going into it.

Right. You put it really brilliantly about, you know, having those people you can count on, you know, and it's not, you know, one side of this is obviously needing someone on our side, you know, like a confidant or someone you want to just want to talk to. Like that other day, you know, Andrew and I had that kind of call. Where we just like opened up and shared. And, you know, Sang, you and I had that call where I did a long walk and I was so lit. I was so fired up. I don't know why. It was you asking me a lot of questions. And even though it felt like you were seeking a lot of answers and things like that, just offering that to you made me feel like I was being a good friend. You know, it was not even like a business thing. It was just such a joy that I felt. And so that side of it is really brilliant, right? Like the fact that we can sort of build this interpersonal relationship. But also from a tactical point of view, I could not ask for a better— personally, selfishly, I could not ask for a better group of people who are experts at things. Like, I pinged Souk Friday night, like 10 PM, saying, dude, you want to— can I get on a call with you 2 o'clock in the morning? Or I mean, 2 o'clock in the afternoon tomorrow for like some tactical CMS thing that we're working on for the blog. How could a founder get help like that? Yeah. And vice versa, when any one of you, like Andrew asks me something about Riverside or something about some other podcasting thing, whatever, we're all there for each other. And it's this beautiful positive-sum, non-competitive spirit. I feel like that's such a wholesome thing I really, really wanted to create from day one when we had like 1 or 2 fellows. And now we're at 45 and I feel like we still maintain that beautiful positive-sum feeling, which is my favorite part about the fellowship. Forget about other wins. Selfishly, it's like I want to build my own sort of, you know, sort of cult, as I always say. Tal, were you going to say something?

Oh no, I'm good.

Yeah. Okay, cool. So, the last question I have for all of you is, from your lens, from your unique perspective, what made BIPF unique? Because I'm really curious because there's so many programs out there and I've taken a few of those and they all have their own strengths and weaknesses and so on. But from your experience of being in there for 6 weeks as a cohort, and now you're there as alumni in the fellowship, in the Slack, what do you think makes VIPF unique? For someone who's listening to this segment, I want them to get a small taste of what it feels like to be inside, you know, if they're not a fellow yet.

I think the conciseness of it, that's what really got me hooked, is you can learn these lessons across multiple YouTube videos over a year of doing the work on your own. The fact is it's just easier when someone says, do this, do this, do that, and you're good. And that's all you need to do. So you can ignore your inner voice that's telling you maybe there's something else over there, and then you can go over there and check it out. Once you're given the 3 steps or 4 steps to go, and all you have to do is rinse and repeat, just do it over and over again. That's kind of the lesson. Structure, right?

Yeah. We all underestimate the power of A clear structure, right? Yeah.

Yeah, 100%, Souk. And to build on what you said, there's no fluff. Like, it really is super concise and it's like, hey, like, you don't need to like, you know, marinate on this for 10 hours. Just follow this formula and you won't fail, right? It doesn't mean you can't deviate from it, but you know, here's a starting point. And for me, putting aside that concision, And kind of like, you know what I call the, like, just like no bullshit content. It's also the accountability. It's the structure and also the accountability built in those forcing functions to go and put 3 things in your content bank or post your first LinkedIn, post your first LinkedIn post, that whole like just do it mentality and the forcing functions to all kind of like co-work in tandem and just do it. That to me is, in my opinion, a game changer compared to like On Deck or other programs I've done that really didn't have that accountability. And in my opinion, had far too many people in it to ever really enable.

Yeah. I want to say one thing about the fluff side of it. You know, the reason why there's no fluff even in the slides or on Slack or anywhere, Notion. You know why The Secret? Because I hate fluff myself. Are you kidding me? I would go to sleep if I have to read through fluff. And like, so I think a lot of that is really my personality in a way where I'm like, I hate like the MBA slides that are like 85 slides long and where everyone's like figuring, trying to figure out where's the point here, you know? So, so much of that is just, you know, one, my laziness, but also I think— Yeah. Personally, I feel like busy founders and busy creators, you know, should, should, don't need a lot of theory. They need like a little aha moment and then rest should be just action. Right. So that's that. Andrew, what's your take? I'm curious. What do you think makes BIPF unique? And then we can go with Sang.

Yeah. I wanted to add on to what we were also discussing right before this around the aspect of the community. Well, we all know like cohort learning or these kind of like group learning, these modular learning, became pretty popular, you know, around pandemic time, you know, where community was a very core need for everyone in their life, whether they acknowledge it or not. And it was also the same time I experienced, you know, joining On Deck's ODNC fellowship. Yeah, they made a strong pitch about what community-based learning could look like. And so when I joined, it was like a group of like 200 people, and I did get a lot of connections. There was a lot of insights, a lot of You know, tips and tricks learned. And there was also a lot of structure. We were also encouraged to kind of build something and ship it at the end of a 10-week. So those mechanisms were all there, but I just remember feeling very overwhelmed, even though the people were so nice, the ethos was there. It was just, there was something about me that felt like it was too much for me. What I found was very different from this was what Well, from the get-go, it was a group of 10, 12 people that even from the kickoff, we can tell that the intention was really there. I think everyone was very vulnerable about their journey and also just really realizing that this concept of building in public, however way you approach it, yes, there's a lot of like very strategies and tactical things you should do, but at the end of the day, there were just so many emotional things that were behind it. We all had a different emotional relationship with sharing or being vulnerable. It was really helpful to have a group of people that understood that and was able to kind of in a loving way hold hands and just go through it together. And you can, you can tell not just in the Slack channels, you can tell not only in the Zoom, the Zoom calls and the Zoom chats, but also most importantly on Twitter, right? We were able to just like Knowing, especially people who are just starting, the co-star problem was not there because you knew that, you know, you had some of your cohort was there to like it or to comment on it or to make a joke out of it. Yeah. It was also just, just a level of support knowing that you're not just talking to an empty room. And finally, we talked about how there's a lot of internal voices. I think especially entrepreneurs, there's always going to be days where there's like some kind of doubt, there's some kind of no or like, maybes, right? And I, my IRL community, there's not a lot of, I'm not surrounded by a lot of entrepreneurs. So I don't get a lot of like yeses. I don't get a lot of like, whoa, that's dope, right? And so it was really helpful to have more people saying like, yes, and, or dream bigger, or you can do this, right? That was—

You can do this, yeah.

That's something that's irreplaceable for me.

Tell sorry, we lost your voice there. It was glitchy.

I was just screaming Amen brother at Andrew. Amen. I was really impressed at the end. I thought you should share me. Well said.

Yeah, well said. Plus one to that, 100%. You know, if if you're in the right group, they can really raise the ceiling of your ambition. You know, I think that's something I learned. So it's it's almost very important to figure out who the group is. So that, you know, you know, like, where you're gonna go, you know, as opposed to like trying to focus too much on your skills alone. Sang, what's your take? What makes VIPF unique? You've been actually in Build Space too, and a few others too. So I mean, I don't need— I'm not knocking on any of the others. So, you know, I respect the game. You know, I feel like every program is hard to run. So everyone's trying their best. But I'm just genuinely curious about sort of your Lens on what did BIPF stand out in terms of standing out for you?

Yeah, I'm gonna expand a little bit on what Andrew said with vulnerability. You know, like like it's it's almost like KPR personality kind of reflects in the entire program. When I think of you, I think of two words: authentic and wholesome. And you keep mentioning this as well. Like where where like you've done a podcast. With a lot of people, and you, you, you've, uh, you say this, that like Gary Vee and a lot of others, they're very authentic. Alex Hormozi as well. Uh, like, that's the thing. Like, uh, you— I almost think you can't sort of like scale without being authentic. That's— you gotta be yourself. And, you know, I still remember like these Just Ship It sessions. I remember like I just like wanted to— I just said what I wanted to say. I didn't care about like, you know, if someone's gonna like it, someone's not gonna like it. I, I remember this like one stupid LinkedIn post that I made, uh, you know, on one of those Just Ship It sessions, and I was like, nobody's gonna even like read this, they're probably gonna laugh at it. But turns out a lot of people actually enjoyed, uh, reading this post, uh, and I was actually surprised that like, what, people actually— I just tweeted something that I thought and people liked it. Yeah, that was that was like a really weird experience for me. So so that's what I that was the biggest thing that I got out of like talking to you and like being part of the fellowship is that I can be like way more authentic, you know, and people connect to that. People relate to that. I can afford to be a lot more vulnerable than than I am right, you know, than I was before.

I think, you know, the other thing is when you're authentic, somehow I feel like you become— your content becomes lighter to consume. I don't know if you guys feel it. And like, I can tell if someone's trying to be too dense, insight dense, and the content feels heavy, like a Wikipedia article or some kind of a heavy, like, New Yorker article. You're like, oh my God, this is some homework I got to read. As opposed to someone who is just kind of like shooting from the hip. Being casual, not from the writing style. I'm just saying like, you can just see that they're seeing life from a lighter vein as opposed to like a serious, you know, oh, everything is a tragedy or everything is a big deal. Like your replies, Sung, and most of your tweets literally make me smile just for that reason. Because there's so much lightness in the way, because you were so quirky and you talk about some mathematicians, like I said, some physicists and some random things that I'm like, this guy, he's like living in a whole different planet. Like, you know, he doesn't care to go viral. He doesn't care for follower growth. And, you know, and, but they're all still interesting, you know?

Yeah. Andy has the dankest memes, which doesn't hurt.

Andy has the dankest memes. That's right. People can tell. I feel like when you're not taking yourself too seriously, you know, and when you're really doing it for the fun of the game, which is, you know, as I, I've quoted Steph Curry many times in our fellowship where I feel like compared to so many of the modern players, NBA basketball players, I think Steph exhibits to me the same kind of joy that my 2-and-a-half-year-old son, Neil, exhibits in the yard. It's the same childlike joy. So when you do something with an utmost level of awe and have very low expectations, you're bound to have a great day. The fact that you You made a banger LinkedIn post, and yet your expectations were so low that you fell in awe of the response. Like, imagine if you just had the expectation of, oh, this should definitely go 10 likes or 8 comments, right? Wow, that's a huge lesson even for me, you know? That's such a good reminder.

Absolutely. And just to sort of like, it's one of the things that you sort of pinned on your Twitter, I think. I'm not sure. I might just Botch what botch a tweet, but you you said like you measure your life on three things: how much fun you've had, how much you've helped others, and how many uncomfortable things you've done. Yes, or something like that.

Yeah, hard things. Yeah, it's the same thing, right? Yeah, that's awesome. Cool. Thank you so much, everybody. I think that was the last question I had in mind. I mean, I feel like I could do another hour easily, given we have such a you know diverse and Interesting group of people here. I want to say thank you to each of you for taking a bet on the fellowship. You know, massive respect. We're still in the ground floor, as you can, as I always say, like we're still like building the ground floor. Maybe take another 5 years to get to the first floor. So the fact that you believed in this early enough, especially Andrew and Tal, who were part of On Deck, and then, you know, they came and joined this. So special kudos and thank you for both of you. And it means a lot to me. You know, I loved the 6 weeks and I can't wait for the, you know, for our future times on Slack and the future sessions too. So thanks everybody. And thanks for being on the show.

Thank you for having us.

Thanks for having us.

Thank you so much.

Awesome. Sounds good. And it's a wrap.