BoneChat #48 - Fractional Marketing for Startups with Christine Moley

All right, welcome to Bone Chat Discussion 48. Uh, by request, we're doing another, uh, fractional leadership and startups. Mark, uh, Maloney did the last one, and specifically we're going to talk about fractional marketing Christine Mooley has been around for 25 years doing B2B consumer med device work. She's, she is a veteran fractional leader and she can do it all. So I'm turning the mic over to Christine to start off the conversation on fractional leadership.

Welcome aboard. Thanks, Tiger Buford. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you all for sitting through this with me. I have a presentation which I'm hoping to share if I can. And then I'd love to open it up for questions and a general discussion. This is definitely going to be very interactive. And I'd love to hear your thoughts as we go through this. And here it is.

We're not shy.

You'll get— can you see my screen? No. All right, we'll try that one again. It just was working a minute ago when we, uh, tested it. Here it is. All right, so a lot of, uh, I do get a lot of questions about what I do, um, from the surgeons I work with as well as, uh, colleagues I work with. Potential clients. The idea of a fractional marketing person is still a little new, and I'm hoping to enlighten you a little bit about how you can leverage a fractional marketer and dispel some of the myths that are out there. So I am going to start with what is a fractional CMO. So when I—

Christine, we don't see the slides. I can't see the slides. Can Anybody see the slides?

Yeah. Okay. So let me go back. It allows me to share.

Here we go. Perfect.

Yes.

Okay. I don't know why in presentation mode it's not working, but we can— we can see— a Mac issue. Here we go. So a fractional CMO. When I started doing this, well over 15 years ago, I was kind of the first of my kind. And when I was working with my surgeon thought leaders at my various client companies, they would ask me, you know, what do I do and how do I phrase it? So I think the term I initially coined was I'm a free agent. I work with companies and clients who need an expertise in marketing. I have that expertise and they would like to leverage that expertise without having to hire me or take on the commitment of a full-time marketing role. And that's essentially what a fractional CMO is. The fractional part depends on the, the client, the business, the goal that needs to be achieved, what the budgets are. Cash is always king. So how can we achieve the goals we need to do in the most cost-effective way? And sometimes that means a fractional CMO may help. When I look at what some of the myths are, that I've heard around the industry about a fractional CMO. The first one that comes to mind is that a fractional person might not completely understand my business or understand what it is we do or how we do it. So I know myself and my colleagues take the time to do extensive research. Really, I start off all my consulting opportunities with, let me talk to your constituents, not just your internal executives, but your current marketing person, your salesperson, your key opinion leaders, your thought leaders. If you have key investors, let me understand the totality of what you're doing and what you're looking to achieve. And then I can bring to the table some unique strategies that I have implemented in the past, have experience implementing that may help your business. And then it's adaptable and collaborative. So Not every situation is the same. So things have to change and adjust depending on the situation and depending on the business. But it's always a collaborative approach. So we partner with those executives in the company and really tailor what strategies are out there, what has experience— what I have experience with and what has worked in the past. And then how do we apply it to your business? And I've worked in several industries. Not only med devices, pharmaceutical. I've worked in mom and pops, so the retail store on the street, as well as HVAC, another highly technical industry. So a lot of these principles are applicable. We just need to marry up the understanding of the business with what is working today in marketing. A second myth I always hear is, well, you don't work full-time for the company, so how do I know I have your commitment and loyalty? Commitment's easy. I think we all bring 110% of ourselves to everything we do, dedicated to your business. So my success is your success. A lot of that can be incentivized in contracts and how you write a contract. But as far as commitment and loyalty, I think when you look at hiring a CMO or a fractional CMO, you do the same type of in-depth conversations as you do when you're hiring an employee. My contracts tend to be long-term. I think the longest one I have is about 14 years. And then I have short-term ones that last a few months based upon the need of the client. But again, it's a, it's a relationship. That's being built over time that can be leveraged and flex up and down with your business. So it's not always going to be the same. It's going to be dynamic. But it also doesn't come with any past history or baggage that current employees or current situations may bring up. So it is an objective perspective on the business, someone that comes in with fresh eyes and a different background that may have an opportunity to do something different. When I talk about loyalty, and that can be seen in many different ways, but in an industry like spine, which I tend to do some work in, it is a very competitive industry. So I personally do not take on competing products. If I'm operating in one space and I have a client in that space, I don't take on a competitive product. So I self-police myself from a loyalty perspective. One, to do what's best for my clients, but also it makes me feel good when I wake up every day and I can really give commitment to my, my client and my business and achieve those results. So the other myth I get is, as a fractional CMO, do you tend to focus more on tactical, or am I going to lose that strategic thinking overall, or can you operate on both? Both spheres. So as I've progressed through my career, I've had the, the pleasure of working not only in a management role, in a strategic role, but also on the tactical side of the business and executing. So I've had the opportunity to work throughout the stream of marketing. And I think with a fractional CMO, you can structure the interaction which, what best fits your business. So if you're in the planning stages prior to launching a product and you need that strategic thinking, you need someone who has seen many different product launches, has seen many different marketing strategies employed. That kind of strategic thinking will help in the planning stage. But as you progress through your business, the fractional CMO should be able to progress with you. So when it's time to focus on execution, they should have that ability to execute as well. So I don't tend to, uh, focus in on a project. I tend to focus in on a life cycle with a client and then how I can best leverage my expertise with that.

So I believe, I believe tactical versus strategic. So the, like, the companies you work for, um, Spinal Elements, Sentinel, Procydion, did they have a marketing staff when you were there, or did they have a Okay.

Yes. So those clients in particular had a marketing staff. Presidium at the time had a commercial team. So I represented the voice of the, voice of the market in that regard. That was highly strategic in focus and in guidance with some tactical elements on what needed to be communicated. The other clients I work with do have full marketing staff. So I'm brought in either as someone that can bring an expertise and guide the marketing team through that expertise, like marketing communications, marketing messaging, foundation building. And then if needed, I can stay on to go ahead and execute and be another person that will do the heavy lifting to get to the end goal.

And do they, do they follow your lead? I mean, when you say, here's the campaign, this is what we're going to do. Do they just do it or do they ask the CEO, am I supposed to do what Christine's telling us? Or, I mean, how does it work when you're—

Well, just like with, with any relationship, you have to build that trust and you have to build that camaraderie, but it is very collaborative. My approach is not to go in and say, this is what you must do. This is how it has to be. This is what's going to get you to success. My approach is always, let me learn about your business. Let me hear from your key opinion leaders. Let me see what has worked and what hasn't worked in the past. And let me come back and present to you what I believe is your next step and what I believe is going to be successful. And then from there, let's collaborate to make sure that you're on board. It's going to meet your goals. It's going to be executed in a way that can be successful. So I am very collaborative in what I do. I don't, um, I lead through example. Um, I am, I, I straddle that mark where I'm also a heavy lifter as well as a, a strategic thinker. The plans I suggest are the plans I can execute. I'm not gonna hand you a plan and walk away. That's not my consulting model.

Player, a player coach model.

Yeah.

And how many hours, how many hours typically? I'm, I'm sure it varies, but Are you 10 hours a week or 20?

It varies by client and it varies by, uh, business cycle. So, and I tend to work a lot, so I love what I do. I'm very passionate about what I do. Um, but so a basic engagement for me would be 20 hours a week. Um, and that can go up and down depending on the needs and the projects and what's happening. In the business. I tend to work with my clients so we can set a budget that is applicable to the business, and if I need to work more hours, then that's a discussion. If I work less hours, I only bill for the hours that I work. So it's really a very amicable situation, and I don't have any clauses. So if you don't need me, we can just part ways and move on. So Um, it's how I ran my business from the, from the start. It's very transparent and very, a very easy model to, to understand.

Yeah, I like the way you explained that to me offline. The client can sort of ratchet up and down the, the hours, you know, per week or month depending on the needs. So that's— they— clients have to absolutely love that.

So especially in the startup world, because sometimes you just need, uh, you know, a, a ton of marketing for 2 months and then you're going to kind of execute what you have and not need anything new for the next cycle. Yeah. So going up and down helps a lot of different ways. It helps me, it helps the client. But yet I'm always on the bench. So when you need me, I'm there. Excellent. Okay. I like to think of a good CMO as someone that can translate a high-level vision, gain middle-level alignment, and then drive execution excellence. So you can run the gamut between understanding what's needed to drive the business and be successful, and yet still execute on an excellence level, driving those business results. So the other question I get is, how do I get long-term value if I'm working with someone that's only part-time or temporary? And I think the long-term value comes from the assets and the deliverables that live on either throughout the engagement or long after the engagement's completed. So when you look at branding, identity, positioning, marketing foundation, that's the core and the basis of your message to the marketplace. That, when built correctly, should be sustainable long for many, many years and should be able to grow with the business. Looking at how to manage the lifecycle of your clients or lifecycle of the business, you know, being able to identify that early target market that's going to be your early adopters and then being able to move that lifecycle management as the business progresses and grows. That strategy should outlive the short term of a fractional CMO, as long as, as well as with your tech stack. I mean, everyone talks about tech stacks today. I have learned a ton in the past 6 months and it keeps changing as to what tech stack to use and what tech stack not to use. But when you look at the integration of technology into marketing, how do you build that and how do you build that cost effectively but also scalable so that as the business grows and as you need more power, you can add that more power at the right time. And then scaling the marketing operations. You know, as you add products or you launch products, do you necessarily need to add additional headcount, or can you add a headcount as the product progresses through the lifecycle? So for instance, many of my clients, I start off at 3 months before commercialization, establishing the branding, the positioning, the messaging. I take it through first year of launch. So that early adopter market development phase, and then they hire a full-time product manager who I then train, mentor, and then hand over the reins to. And then when they launch another product, we do it all over again. So there's many different ways a fractional CMO can add long-term value and can be a part of your team without being, going into the next myth, next myth, without being a long-term liability. So fractional CM, some people are— some clients always ask me the question, well, how do I know it's not too expensive? How do I know I can afford it? My simple answer is this: our contract is based between you and I, and we work on what the contract is that's affordable for you, and so you can achieve your goals. We can cap it at a certain amount of hours. We can cap it at a certain amount of dollars. You know, that negotiation is individual to each client, but also you're saving with a CMO, a fractional CMO, in that you don't need to have the overhead office space, computers, cell phone, whatever comes with hiring a new employee. There's no additional benefits. There's no commitment to salary. There's no long-term commitment. These contracts can be written anywhere from a month to 3 years. Um, most of mine are written on a yearly basis, but there's no clause that says you are responsible for the full contract. I work on a 30-day notice most of the time with my clients. Sometimes it's less, which is okay too. Um, but you get access to top talent without having to have that commitment or having to commit to long-term salaries. So I'd like to look at my role as someone that is very flexible and adaptable, and I can scale based upon the budget and the goals that need to be achieved. And it's, it's very customizable and, and tailorable to the situation. So with that, is there any questions or any other discussion points? Mark?

Oh, we lost Mark. Kyle?

Hey, is there, so is there a time that's too early or a time that's too late for this relationship to kind of take shape? I mean, is it, do you need it to be past kind of the basic ideation phase or can you start on day zero? Or if you're fully commercial and you're more of a portfolio completion phase, is that too late? Yeah, I start anywhere from right past ideation. So as a marketer, as a, as a founder or an inventor, you have a great idea of what the product is. You probably know who you would like to use it early on. You have some basics in place. So I typically don't start at ideation. I typically start right after that, probably around the prototyping phase where you need market feedback. You want to go outside your current stable of thought leaders. You want to truly pressure test the product, pressure test your, your theories and who you're targeting and where it can be used. That's like key opinion management, key opinion leader, market research, primary research, secondary research, and that will, all that will feed into your marketing later on. But yes, so early development and what I call early development is probably around the prototyping phase. All the way through to commercialization. As far as when it's too late, I don't think it's ever too late to tap an expert, a marketing expert for your product. Ideally, I come in 6 months prior to launch to set up the brand identity, to set up the messaging, to pressure test a lot of our messaging with the, with the target market, to really set up your— who your target market is, how you're going to reach them, through what channels. And some of that takes investigation and time to complete. And then a lot of times working with startups, it's not just the person I'm working with, the founder or the, the president or the commercial operating officer. It's others in the stream that we need to present the information to and get buy-in to before we go ahead and move into execution. So I typically like 6 months prior to launch. But it can tail either way, so either earlier or later. What I would say would be too late is if you have product on the shelf and your packaging's done and you have a, you know, basic blue logo and you're going on a white box and you're going into market, that might be a little too late to establish a brand identity on launch. But we can always call that alpha launch and come back and then do a, a commercialization launch, uh, to kind of course correct where we need to. Got it. Thank you.

Yeah, when I put my recruiting hat on, I, I push my clients to hire marketing sooner rather than later because they, they typically don't have the right product, you you know, product market fit early on, but they don't realize it. You know, they, they, they have a— everybody's nodding their head— they have a surgeon with an idea and engineers build the prototypes and hey, this looks great, but they don't really test the market. And then they go through the 510 and they get ready for sales and huh, nobody's buying this. What's going on?

Tiger, I agree with that. And, you know, it's a common problem, especially with startups where you've got a technical founder or a surgeon founder, and they're so close to their baby that they, they don't think— well, first of all, they might not understand, you know, what, what really it takes to put a comprehensive, integrated kind of marketing campaign together, especially today when it's a lot of it's digital and online and branding is important. And they just, you know, go, how many times have we heard, oh, this product is so great, it's gonna sell itself. You know, we're just gonna take orders. So my experience with Christine, I've known Christine over well over a decade. And Tiger, I suggested she would be a great speaker, you know, for this group because I kind of knew Christine from the spine industry because before she became Fractional, she was with Stryker Spine when Stryker Spine was really doing great things. And then when I discovered that she was in this fractional role, I was at a bigger publicly traded company as a— I think, I can't remember if I was president at that time or VP of marketing, but we were getting into— this is just a scenario— a completely new area. So I had negotiated to get the rights to this product and it was safe, SI fusion back in 2012, 2013. So early days when, when most orthopedic, you know, and neuro spine surgeon thought it was blasphemy to even think about putting screws across the sacroiliac junction. But I knew I needed an outside fresh opinion and I was too close to it. So bringing Christine in to talk to the inventor surgeon, to talk to other people, to talk to the inside folks and put together that sort of plan as to how to be successful in this new area, new space. And unfortunately, I left, I think, the company within a few months of bringing Christine in, and whoever was left behind, I don't think they carried on the same mentality that I did. So, but that's to me, if you're— there's an opportunity for even mid-sized to big companies they get that fresh perspective and without the overhead of a position. And then the other experience I had was I brought her into a startup, really a new startup that hadn't really— it was, I think it was before they got their first 510. It was an international company and, you know, they really needed guidance and direction on branding and messaging. All of those things. So Christine, you know, brings that perspective for startups, and I totally agree, you really need to be doing it at least 6 months before you're at launch phase with your alpha launch because things are going to change. So she's great and her network is fantastic, and you go, as I do, to a lot of the SPINE meetings, and Christine's there, and Like she said, she rolls up her sleeves. She's setting the booth up or breaking it down or doing a demo at the, at the exhibit. And she's not just the consultant on the other end of the Zoom screen sending in these beautiful PowerPoints and, and big invoices later on. So she's definitely hands-on.

Thanks, Ted.

That's a great testimonial. So it's a really cheap insurance policy for a startup to hire marketing early. So what, I mean, what does it cost? I mean, what are, what are your rates? You know, 10, 10 hours a week early on.

My rates definitely vary based upon the project and the need. Um, and it based, it's based best, based best, based upon the company. So, you know, I work with some Wall Street types that, you know, can pay and they want to pay and they want to keep you for 20 hours and do the work. And then I work with some startups So my rates tend to average around $175, $195 an hour. Um, social media management is a little less, strategic is a little bit more, but it all depends on the client and it all depends on what the work actually is. And you know, if I can do it from my, my own home office or if I need to travel somewhere and spend a couple days.

So If, yeah, so we're talking, you know, $7,000 to $10,000, you know, a month to— that'll be the best money ever spent. Go, go ahead, Mark. Mark Maloney.

Yeah, thanks. Um, what kind of an impact do you think, um, AI is going to have on what you do and what other fractional marketing people might do?

You know, that's, uh, that's a question I've been getting a lot recently, and I do leverage AI where I can. I think it's a— if you're not, I think you're behind the curve because it does offer some great advantages. But I don't think AI, in my personal opinion, will ever replace human thought or human interaction or creativity or uniqueness or, or how to— from a marketing perspective, I don't think AI will ever be able to write the strategic plans I do and get the results I do. I think AI has its place, but, um, more supportive than anything else.

Okay.

Yeah, good answer.

Co—

hey, Christine.

Um, I, what are a couple bits of advice that you would give to startups that are in your, in that sweet spot, 6 months before commercialization, close to commercialization, that there's not enough Christine to go around and they got to do something right or a couple things right or avoid. What are some of those things that you would suggest those companies do? No, no matter if they ever bring you in or not.

Yeah. The first I would say is get outside your, your core. People, your core constituents. Get outside your, your key opinion leaders, because your key opinion leaders are probably just as bought into technology as you are, and they might not be giving you a fresh perspective. So definitely expand that network and really ask the hard questions. It's not just, do you like it, you know, can you use it? It's, will you? How will you? How much? You know, what is it going to take to get you to use it? So ask those hard questions that get a little bit outside your comfort zone to get the real understanding as to what the market is going to accept. I would say you definitely need to develop an identity. It used to be when I started way back when at Ethicon, you know, you need a product that worked. And you need it to work when it worked, and that was all you needed in order to have a good product, right? Nowadays, there's so many devices doing the same thing or similar thing. I mean, there's, there's 20 or 30 that can take your place. Marketing is necessary, and brand and identity is necessary today to be successful. So if you're looking at creating your identity, get with a creative person, get with somebody that can help you create a unique logo, a unique positioning, and unique messaging points. So that when you do start communicating your message, whether it's digital or an advertising or a trade show, you have that uniqueness that will set you apart, that people spot your logo, they're like, oh, I remember that, I know what that is for. I think Tiger and I talk a lot about how often do you get that message out there? So I think the third thing would be don't be shy when it comes to social media or when it comes to digital marketing. It's all basically free. It's your time. It's your effort, right? Make sure you have guardrails so that you're on message and you're communicating consistently, but post as much as you can. I mean, I, I go back and forth and Tiger and I talk about this a lot. I'd rather post a very unique message once a day than post 3 generic messages 3 times a day. It's all about the algorithm with LinkedIn and getting shared and liked and all that. But I use the analogy with Tiger. I said I'd rather throw 1 orange ping pong ball into a vat of white balls. I'm not going to get the impressions that those white balls do, but I'll get the engagement with my one. So know your— know that you need to be out there. You need to communicate that message, but make that message unique and sticky.

That was great.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Really, it was really good. Go ahead, Joe.

Hey, Christine.

Can you guys hear me all right?

Yeah. Okay.

So I am not a marketer. My background's in engineering. So all of marketing's fairly new to me, and this might be a bit marketing principle. I'm not sure, but communicating launch date. So many people want to know, when can I have it? When can I have it? When can I have it? And you talk about getting on board 6 months ahead of launch potentially. Are you communicating to customers and building up the anticipation saying, hey, by Q2 of 2025, or by this date, you can expect this product? And if you are, what happens if, you know, if it's going through 510 submission and FDA bounces back asking for a couple of more things. Now this launch date that you may have communicated is going to change. So what's the principle behind that or your strategy there?

Yeah, that's always a tough one. Um, and early on in my career, I was so behind building up momentum and penting— pent-up demand and, uh, launching that. And, um, yeah, I've been burned several times by missed launch dates, whether it's the FDA or whether it's you know, quality, the product didn't come into spec. Yeah, those are always tough. Those aren't easy. For sure. What I prefer to do now is start building with awareness of the need for the product. So start really getting your word out there about why your product is beneficial or what need your product meets, building a case in the community for for that need and then using publications that exist around it. So let's take one in spine. So we were talking about earlier on about bone screws, pedicle screws, and them not being able to bite into bone because the bone quality is, is poor or there's low density. That is a specific challenge that may not happen often, but when it does, it's disastrous. So starting to create awareness around that now, 6 months prior to launch, is a good idea because you now you're starting to build awareness around, huh, I never realized that was a problem. And the next time I have the problem, it becomes even more exa— exacerbated than it was if you didn't gain that awareness.

Yeah.

So starting that until you get closer to launch. I don't ever advise putting a launch date out until you have FDA clearance, because that can always be such a wild card, um, that, and it could delay you 2 or 3 months or even more. So have the clearance out of your control. Yeah, yeah, have the clearance in hand. And typically nowadays, many of my startups don't start building inventory until the clearance. They don't risk, you know, don't risk that capital before they have FDA clearance or what they believe will be FDA clearance. So you got to wait for that capital to be built anyway, whether it's screws or instruments or whatever. So once you have the clearance, once you have your alpha phase in the marketplace and you know the product works the way you know and you're sure, and you place that commitment for that big launch quantity, then I would go ahead and tease out a launch date, but I'd still use Q2, Q3. Yeah, general terms until you get closer. Yeah, no, like, you know, in May that June they're gonna hit, then I would communicate June and I would start building my launch party around it. You know, my webinars, my emails, my, you know, swag I'm going to give to the market, whatever it is that your launch is going to do. I would then start— you can have the plans prior, but start implementing those plans as you get closer. But that's a tough one. That's a very— that's a tough one.

Yeah, finding that right balance, I'm sure, is, uh, and like you said, it's good to be posting on LinkedIn and continuing that, that algorithm the way you're, you're present. And I'm sure as you watch, you, you'll get, you'll see posts turn from very general talking about the need to, yeah, now we have this product. And then eventually the posts will start coming out daily of next month, next week. And yeah, then you, it's a little bit more as you get closer, it's a little bit more targeted.

Yeah. And you can continue to engage your thought leaders through this whole process because that's kind of the downtime for thought leaders, right? They gave their input. Engineering has what they've done. They, they need FDA's, uh, the submission has been filed. So now what do you need your KOLs for? You're going to need them at launch, but to continue engage with them, they can do snippet videos about what the need is. They can do snippets about, you know, oh gosh, I just had this the other day. Here was the patient profile. So you can continue to engage them through that quiet time. So they're prepared when you launch. It's not like hot, cold, hot, cold. Yeah.

All, all very good advice.

Thank you. You're welcome.

Hey Christine, can you stop sharing your slides so we can see?

Yeah, sorry.

And then, uh, Eric's, Eric's up next.

Yeah.

Hey Christine. Thanks for, thanks for spending the time with us.

Question for you.

Let's say that for some reason you aren't available and, you know, we want to find a fractional CMO that might be, you know, almost as good as you. How is it that we go out and find that person and how do we vet them to make sure that, you know, they're going to be the right person for us? Yeah, finding the person is the question. I get that a lot. Because I don't know anyone that does what I do. It, you know, it's definitely a high risk, but for me there was high reward in it. So finding them, I would say at first go to your network and ask around who has, you know, what marketing resources have they outsourced, you know, who have they used, because there's a lot of resources out there like graphic designers, press release writers, PR people that you may fit your need. So you might not need the marketing CMO, you might not need the strategic thinking, but you might need a brochure, you might need a logo. So I would ask around your network, always take referrals because there's a lot of millennials out there on the computer saying they can design a logo for you. And we all have been probably been there and done that and have not been happy with that result. So I would say network is the— referrals are the strongest pathway to that. The questions I would ask would be similar of a person you're hiring, because remember, you're hiring this person and you're investing in your business. So you have to be able to work with this person. They have to bring results to the table. They have to be everything you would look for in a full-time employee. So don't hold back on interviewing them. Having them interview you. I tend to do a lot of interviewing of my own clients now, you know, to make sure it's the right place, it's the right fit, but also that, you know, the cash is there. We're ready to go when we need to go because you get a lot of starts and stops. So it's a two-way conversation. I always, I always love the conversations and we see if there's a fit, but make sure that you interview them as, as hard as you would a regular employee.

Good, good question, Eric. I mean, Christina and I were talking earlier, and one of the challenges she has is she can't really divulge what work she's done for her clients, you know. She can't. It's so— it's hard to do testimonials, you know. I built, you know, I'm, I'm responsible for this whole launch campaign that, you know, so that's always hard. Um, but you can talk about kind of generically, right, Christine?

Yeah, and I try to put some numbers around it, although the more generic you get, the less impressive the numbers get. I do have testimonials on my website, or I, you know, if they know Ted, I ask them to call Ted, or if they know Rick Simmons, you can call Rick Simmons. Um, so I've used connections that way. Um, but I've been doing this for some time now, so typically that the case studies don't I don't really need to promote what I've done. And on the second to that is, I don't— it's not my work. It is my work, but it's for on behalf of the client. So it's the client's work that counts.

Christine, in, in today's world, you know, how would you advise someone who would like to do and be successful as you have been, um, to, to build a practice, you know, in this area? You know, because I think your success speaks for itself and you're busy. I mean, you have all the work that you can tackle pretty much all the time. So I would imagine that's probably why we don't see you as much like on LinkedIn giving, you know, seminars on, you know, brand strategy, social media strategy, because you're actually doing it, you know, for your various clients. But How would you advise that? You know, is it important to— is brand as important as it is for a campaign, for a product or a company, as it is for an individual where it's like, yeah, you got to get out there and kind of become a knowledgeable expert, subject matter expert. But, you know, people have to, you know, come, come, you know, find you by putting it out there. Is that what you would recommend?

Yeah, I mean, I, I can't. I think one of my clients came through my website over 16 years, and that was a referral from another person. And the person that hired me didn't have my direct number, so they came through my website. I do have a website. I just rebranded, I should say enhanced my brand to make it more dynamic and digital and focused. But I think, and it's funny, Ted, I had 2 phone calls last week from people who are looking to do similar things to me. So the first thing I would say is, you know, just study and understand a consulting business and a consultant role. Understand what that means. It's not an employee-employer relationship. So first, get an understanding of what that is. Second, just talk to your network. There's a lot of companies out there right now, startups, midsize, even large companies who can't hire or who have laid off, who have a specific need. And get your foot in the door. If you're a, a, a marketer, a digital marketer, and you do great at email campaigns, find someone in your network that needs an email campaign, even if it's not at the price you want it, or even if you have to partner with a startup and do it for less than you would like, or even nothing. It gets your name out there. You get the experience. You understand now that role and that interaction between a consultant and a client. I just— I've always had a great network. I grew up in a day before LinkedIn, so we didn't have a digital network. It's trade shows, it's meetings, it's telephones, it's conversations. And that's how I've always gotten my business is just through referrals or through my network. And I would say the last thing is just always take a chance. Always take the phone call, even if it's a 10-minute phone call or a 2-hour phone call. Always take the phone call because you never know what's on the other, what's on the other side. You don't know what's great.

Great advice. Absolutely. Tiger, Tiger knows that. Yeah, I think he's got about 25 different ventures underway right now. He keeps dragging me into them.

I know I sent you another one today, Ted. Sorry. Hey, Chris has got his hand raised. He came in a little late.

I was going to say, she mentioned Ted's name and she mentioned Simmons' name. I can attest for her as well. She did a great job for us at Masonic.

So, yes. Christine, how are you?

I bailed on my diligence call early, Tiger, just so I could see Christine because I still owe her a text message from like a month ago.

It's good to see you.

You too.

That's— I guess I have a question for the group. Absolutely. What are— and it's kind of core. What are you currently seeing as your marketing needs today? As you mentioned, AI, we talk digital, but what is that marketing need that's out there for in medical devices?

I mean, I've got an answer. There's so much noise in the world now and with the conferences and there's a billion users on LinkedIn and there's just endless stream of information, Instagram. And I think the biggest challenge is getting noticed for a small company. Small companies don't have a big footprint. They don't have a lot of reps. They don't have a lot of, a big marketing budget. So how do you get noticed? And I keep hearing that over and over talking to startups every week. What they're basically asking me is, how do we get noticed?

Yeah. And when I, I get that question, I ask a follow-up question in, who are you trying to get to notice you? Because a lot of companies will say, well, I don't care, I want a million, I want a million followers. Well, you could have a million teeny boppers who will never use your product because you're cool and irreverent, or you could have 100 surgeons that can use your product tomorrow. So let's define what noticed is, and then we can better strategize on how you're gonna get there. But yeah, that's a question I get a lot is how do I stand out?

Good.

Uh, Cope.

Yeah, I was gonna say, I might disagree with you a little bit on that, Tiger. And to please, Christine just sort of, um, brought it up. I actually think it's easier than ever to get noticed, but because of social media, because of the, uh, the low barrier of threshold, the low threshold to get into it. But what Christine said that I was nodding my head vigorously on is Talking about the problem, like, you know, I mean, I've been the salesperson on the end of marketing that says our screw angulation is 27 degrees versus Ted's 24. And you're like, awesome features. Oh my God. Right.

Like, and so 3 degrees of separation.

That's awesome. Exactly. Like it's And, uh, and so I think it's actually more about what you were talking about, which is talking about the problem for 6 months. And, and I know, I think it was, uh, uh, Joe was talking about like changing it as you get closer and closer. And maybe that's the case. I don't know. Again, I'm not a marketer. I just am on the receiving end of much of it and delivering. And I just think you, if somebody said every time I have this problem, I'm thinking of Copeland. My wife says that a little bit, but I would say like, that's actually a pretty decent calling card versus when I need 27 degrees of angulation. I'm not calling Bird.

Yeah. Copeland. Right.

Like, because people are like, I don't know what the hell he's even talking about. And so I think like, that's one of the things that I think we're, we're seeing some fundamental shifts into people talking. Med device marketing, talking about problems more than features. And I hope, because, because I do think also, like, Seth, what Seth Godin say, you need like 1,000, you need a tribe, like you need your tribe. You don't need a million, a million teeny boppers will buy a lot of records. But, there, I really like how you described that and it's who do you need to see and who do you need to get in front of and then That's all we really worry about. Um, so yeah, it's— I, I, I disagree respectfully because I do think it's actually easier in many ways. It's just the message has to be that— I love that orange ping pong ball. I love that analogy.

Yeah.

And, uh, and keep up the good work.

But yeah, thanks.

Thanks.

Good comment. Good.

Mauricio.

Yeah, I was thinking, uh, one of the things that I that I'm starting to get, like, with spending a lot of time on the road and talking to surgeons, is like finding the right angle. There's a million offers and there's a million people bombarding them with a lot of information. So like, how do you position not only yourself as a brand but also your message? And how do you hit the nail quickly with what you can offer that is beneficial in a specific space? I felt that that's something that as a startup you need, because you can You know, you can transpire all you want, you can sweat it out and be on the road and wear your shoes, but unless you get like a good message and you come out of a meeting with a surgeon or an interaction on social media or whatever with a sense that they understood what you're about and what differentiates you as a company, it's still, you're gonna be one in a deck of cards that they're just gonna lose track of you.

Mauricio, tell her what you do. What your business does.

So we've created a digital platform for surgical planning and the creation of custom devices. We basically have a cloud-based platform where a doctor uploads the CT or the diagnosis image, let's say, of a complicated fracture. We're not— right now we're focusing on CMF, but we're starting to do some interesting stuff in ortho as well. You upload a complex comminuted fracture, our software creates a 3D version of the patient that you can manipulate so you can reduce the fracture You can pick your implants. If you have to bend them, it'll bend them. If you need a custom implant, we'll help you design it on the platform, and then we'll send it over to you as a custom implant or as a surgical template. So we've been trying to disrupt it. It's interesting for us because we're not selling a part. In the end, we monetize a part, but we're selling a workflow, and that is a hard sell in this industry. So we've learned a lot about the go-to-market of workflows.

Yeah, that's pretty interesting from a concept perspective. Never quite thought of reducing a fracture that way or taking a pre-surgical and doing what you want to do, then having a template on how to do that. Interesting. Thank you. But that is hard to communicate because it's not— Very hard. Not a widget. It's not a— You have to, you have to do a demo and you have to come with a, with a very quick eye-catching demo that someone will take a minute to watch.

Yeah, because I can tell you like, hey, my screw has better retention in cancellous bone or low-quality bone or whatever, and that, that'll catch your attention as a surgeon. But if you tell them, hey, I'll make your surgical times 30% quicker and I'll increase your accuracy by 20%, okay.

Show me. Yeah, I hear you.

Uh, Mark Maloney.

So this—

there we go.

Sorry, that's a good lead-in actually to my question. That is, to me, the question always is, how do we find the tip of the spear And how do we keep it sharp using it 100 times a day? Or another way of saying it is, how do I take my, my truckload of grapes or fruit and deliver cognac to the market?

You know, it all starts with who is your buyer and who is your market, who is that tribe, who is the one that going to use your product, and then developing your strategy from them. If you're not clear, I mean, And it's not spine surgeons, right? That's too broad of a market nowadays. Way back when, when I was at Stryker, it was spine surgeons, and you had a unique product and you got the business. Nowadays it's not spine surgeons, it's spine surgeons who believe a certain philosophy, who've been trained under a certain, uh, mentor, who see a certain patient population, um, All the, all those factors and behaviors can be tied to a story that you need to tell them about the product. So it's that customer journey and personalize that, personalizing that customer journey, which means to them, you hear me, you know what my pain point is, you've done your homework on what my business is, and now you can deliver me a solution. So those first 4 are your entry to the game. You don't do the first 4, you don't get entry to the game. You have to understand your market and you have to speak to them, and then you have to plot out their journey. It's like I go to websites, even me looking for a technology, and I find a great fit for me, and nowhere on the website is a phone number or is a book a call with me or anything. So I send an email and I hear nothing back. So it's not just knowing and telling the story. It's now planning those breadcrumbs to make sure that once you convince them that you're the solution, you can now deliver them the solution. So it all ties together.

Good answer. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that customer segmentation and making sure you're addressing the right ones is so important. You know, Mark, for your grapes, you're going to be looking specifically for French-speaking or loving foodies that smoke cigars for your cognac versus beer-drinking Germans in Bavaria that have leather shorts, right?

Yeah, actually, the hat I wore today I bought in Salzburg, so I'm—

I'm— Got a little feather in it.

Wearing my beer drinker outfit.

Nice.

You got to find the ones that wear the beret. There you go.

That's really interesting. So yeah, what else? This has been great. So what, what mistakes, Christine, do startups usually make in marketing? I mean, you, you go into a fresh company that's either done it wrong or they haven't done anything yet. What, what mistakes are they making?

So I think the, the first mistake I see a lot is, uh, you have an idea, the founder has an idea, it comes to fruition, and it takes the place of another product, usually a product marketed by J&J or Medtronic or somebody, and they replicate the branding as close as they possibly can without, um, infringing upon trademarks because they feel like they're going to get this aura from that brand onto their brand. Um, that never works, and it usually ends up being very vanilla and something customers can't engage with, um, feel, or really get on board with. So I'd say the, the first thing I would do is make sure you establish your own identity, establish your own principles, make people know what you stand for so they can either align with that and become your tribe or not. I mean, and I say or not, and a lot of times commercial people look at me and go, well, I want everybody, I want everyone to be in my tribe. That's not going to get you to success. That's going to get a lot of people around you, but not a lot of people buying. So you have to be selective of who your tribe is and know and let them know what you stand for. Don't try and hide in someone else's shadow or use someone else's halo to sell your product because that won't work.

Yeah, I think that's the boil the ocean problem. They try to, they say the market's $1 billion and, you know, there's, there's 100,000 surgeons, but you really only need, you know, 100 to really have a great company.

To be honest, you might need 10.

10, right?

You might need 10 for the first year to make your number for the first year. So, and that goes along with the likes and the follows. I, that's the first, second question I usually get. Well, how many followers can I get? I can get you a million tomorrow. Give me a million dollars, I'll pay a million people $1 and they'll follow you. There's your, there's your million followers, but that's not gonna get your product to success or your company to success.

Have, have you, are you familiar with Kevin Kelly's, A Thousand True Fans article.

That's—

no, I'm gonna look that up.

Oh, it's one of the best things I've ever read. It's, it's, it basically, he made, then he wrote this 15 years ago, but he said you don't need a ton of customers. You just need super loyal evangelist customers and you don't need that many. And I, I've yet to see a market, med tech marketing company really do that. Where you just go, an evangelist customer is a person that will buy everything you do. Anything you launch, they'll buy it. They'll use it. They, they just, they're crazy. They'll tell their friends about it.

Yeah. I think, uh, it's one of the things I admire about XLIF and how it grew and how fast it grew. And they utilized many of those principles and made a real society and community around that procedure. And kudos to them for doing it. And I think they had the right touchpoint for patient, surgeon, community, company to make that happen because they helped a lot of patients.

Uh, Cope's back.

Well, I was just going to ask, but you may have just sort of answered it, Christine. Who, who has done what you just described well, maybe outside the industry? That others, like people on this call who are listening in, could— that we all know? I mean, everybody's going to say like Apple or something, but are there others you can point to that would be like a little bit more attainable?

You know, that's a great question. I'm going through my head thinking about who that would be, even the brands I have sitting around me, and Apple is definitely one of them. Um, But I would, I would have to say, if I look at Roblox and that community that they built, and if you have a nephew, a niece, grandchild, son, daughter, how much, how crazy they go over Roblox, where you give good money into an experience. I mean, they did a phenomenal job. They did a phenomenal job of selling not only their direct audience, but those around them, because it's easier to give up the $20 than to hear them cry for 15, 20 minutes for the $20. Um, and you get 20 minutes of sanity. Um, so I think I, I mean, that was the first one that came to mind because I can, I have a picture of my nephew and I can just remember those days, um, where he was just so into Roblox. I'm not even, I might not even be saying it right, but I just know Robux was what I would give him for his birthday, and that was— would make him happy. As far as other companies, you can look at Coca-Cola, you look at Nike, and those are our big brands that have built communities around their product. And Nike continues to shift, and I find Nike very interesting from even the days when I first became aware of who Nike was. To today in their branding and their tribe and who they speak to. It's no longer me, but it is pretty unique. They tell you who you are. They market to you as if they're talking to a person, a friend, someone in their tribe, and they keep you engaged if you happen to be in their tribe. But they also— people like me aren't in their tribe, and they let me know. I'm not an Iggy person. So I might be a Lululemon person, but I'm definitely not a Nike person.

Interesting. Well, this has been terrific, Christine. We're kind of past the hour now. I think we could talk for 2 hours. Thanks a lot. And you've given us a lot to think about. So obviously, I put Christine's LinkedIn connection in the chat and her website. So anybody reach out if if you want to talk to her some more. Appreciate you here, and we may have to do part 2 one day.

So, well, thank you, and thanks for the time. I, I, I learned a lot, so I appreciate it. Thank you.

Yeah, thank you very much. Great stuff.

Thanks, Christine.

Bye.

Bye.