Crypto Megan Podcast | NFTY30: Behind the Scenes of a Digital Revolution

Welcome to the Crypto Megan Podcast. I'm your host, Megan Nielsen. I'm a high-end crypto and NFT portfolio and Web3 strategy consultant. I'm currently on a world tour as a Web3 keynote speaker at all the biggest Web3 tech and fintech events around the world as an industry leader To educate anyone from beginner to C-level executive, and of course, to advocate for women in Web3. My mission is to inspire new people to get involved in the crypto and NFT space with quality, entertaining information they can trust as pioneers in this cultural and financial revolution, a paradigm shift. My name is Megan Nielsen, aka Crypto Megan. We are here at the studio in New York having a fantastic time. We got some very special guests today for season 2 of the Crypto Megan podcast, brought to you by Zebu, the Web3 neobank tailor-made for telecom settlements. Telecom made easy on the blockchain. And we're going to get right into it today. I'd like to introduce my distinguished guests. First off, we've got Springa Chow, advisor to high net worth families, distinguished diplomat. and now film producer, the producer of Nifty 30, which we will be getting into shortly. We've got Barry Alexander Brown, the executive producer of this film, an Academy Award-nominated film director and editor, as well as Lifetime Achievement Award from Cannes. I mean, we are in the presence here of some incredible people in the film industry to grace this Web3 presence. And we've got Matt Medved, who is the co-founder, CEO, and editor-in-chief of Now Media, an award-winning Web3 media technology company. Guys, welcome to the show. We've got some really cool stuff here today because it's not only about Web3, it's about the convergence of film and Web3. I wanna, I wanna give a brief introduction on what Nifty Thirty is, and then I'd like to hear your guys' background and a little bit about what went into making this film. So Nifty Thirty is a cinematic exploration of the world of Web3, and I love that. And you're gonna see why in a minute. The documentary delves into profound questions raised by Web3 technologies and their implications on the human condition. Which for me, you know, this movement is so impactful in so many ways. And for somebody to want to capture this in a cinematic way with the backgrounds that you have, the expertise in crypto, I mean, it's all coming together. We're in a very special moment in history. So thank you all for being here. I think we start with you, Springna.

Thank you, Macken.

How are you doing?

I'm feeling great. Thank you for inviting us. It's a great pleasure and honor to be here.

Yeah, yeah, it's an honor for me because, you know, anybody who wants to showcase and spotlight the innovation happening in, in this great movement in history, for me, is something that needs to be discussed and, and talked about. So tell us a little bit about your background, about this film, about how it came to be.

Sure. I was a crypto investor since 2018, and I love arts, tech, and film. So since the burst of NFT, I've been wondering how I can help the rest of the world population to learn about this amazing technology, how they change people's lives, artists' lives, and the involvement with the technology through blockchain and AI into metaverse. So there was inspiration for me to create this documentary, and luckily enough, I was able to assemble a beautiful, wonderful team around myself, such as Barry, the veteran and the world-renowned filmmaker, who, you know, to be my mentor, executive producer, partner in crime along this journey. And also got to interview and meet a lot of amazing human beings with not only brilliant minds but a great heart to use the technology to do good and betterment of the world around us, such as Matt.

Wow. I mean, now we'll segue over to you, Barry, since she was discussing that you're the executive producer on this. You've worked with greatness like Spike Lee. You've done so many amazing films. Tell us a little bit about your background as well.

Well, my background is I grew up in the Deep South. I'm from Alabama. But I left there at 17 and took off to be a filmmaker, which everybody back home, especially my family, said, you're crazy. This is not possible. But by sheer force of will, I guess, and determination, that's what I've done my entire life. From 17 on, that's what I've done. And Spike Lee and I then met in the early '80s, and we became friends and worked on each other's projects. And then he saw that I had a talent for editing. And then I became his editor on many of the films, like Do the Right Thing and Malcolm X and He Got Game and Crooklyn and Summer of Sam and 25th Hour and—

Wow.

Inside Man. And the last one we did together was BlacKkKlansman. But we are working together again right now with a film Starring Denzel Washington.

Wow. I mean, so what made such an iconic filmmaker want to join a project like this? I mean, I know Spring-Naw's convincing and she's talented and all that, but this is a little bit different.

I can tell you why. Spring-Naw and I, we met in Montgomery, where I'm from, when I was directing a film called Son of the South. And Spring-Naw helped us out down there in Montgomery. Uh, she was sort of a liaison, uh, 'cause, you know, Spring Naa is a mover and a shaker wherever she goes. We know, we know.

Facts, facts.

And so even though I'm from Montgomery, she knew more people in Montgomery than I did and more people that mattered than I did. So, so she helped us out a lot. And then, uh, I mean, I came back to New York to finish the film and, and then Spring Naa said, uh, you know, I'm moving to New York now. I thought, wow, all right. Yeah. Because she was living in Montgomery and working in Montgomery as a financial advisor. And, and then one day she said, you know, I just got back from Miami where I shot all this stuff for, for, for, for NFTs at Art Basel, right? Yes, that's correct.

2021.

I said, what? And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was, you know, I was with her with the crew and we shot this stuff and let me show you some of the things. And so she showed me this stuff and I thought, I thought, wow, look at this. I mean, you know, you could see right away that, that, that she had captured something, a moment already.

Yeah.

Already she had a moment that she captured, which was sort of nobody else was really paying much attention to. And it had energy and it had fun. And, and, and she said, I'm going to keep doing this. I'm going to keep going. I'm going to, make a documentary about this, you know? And, you know, and, you know, um, she has really learned a lot. I mean, it's really been now a couple of years, right? 2 and a half years.

2 years and a half.

Yeah. 2 and a half years.

Yes.

And, and, uh, you know, I mean, it really comes down to, in terms of making movies, um, really how much you're willing to learn, not what you think you know already. And you'll see this movie. This movie has just turned out, turned out terrific.

Yeah. I mean, I can attest to that.

I'm proud to have my name on it, even as executive producer, even though the real creative people are Spring Na and Hayden.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

I'm honored.

Yeah. And you know, nothing but good things to say about it. I think this is going to be something really special. for society to see, especially people who don't know much about the movement, who are going to kind of like have their eyes wide open to this, be like, wow, this is a whole underground world that beautiful things are happening there. And Matt, I know you are featured in this film.

Yes.

Yes. Glad to be a part of it.

Tell us a little bit about your background. I know you're a crypto OG. You're also running a media house and very successful at that. So tell us, tell us a little bit about it.

Yeah.

So I come from the intersection of culture and media. So I founded Billboard Dance, Billboard's dance electronic music brand in 2015. I built that into the leader in the space and then ran cross-department content strategy. After that, I ran Spin Magazine as editor-in-chief. It was always my favorite magazine growing up, so that was really special.

Okay.

Spin?

Yeah. Wow.

Yeah, 2018 to 2020. Rebranded it, brought it back to the OG black and white logo it launched with in '85, put Billie Eilish, Charli XCX, Tyler, the Creator on the COVID and exited with the sale of it in 2020.

Wow.

And I was actually running content at Modern Luxury, the lifestyle publisher, when I got pulled down the NFT rabbit hole and started the NFT Now accounts in January 2021. They started taking off and we recognized that there was a need, a real gap in the market and a need for like an independent, credible media brand in the space. And, you know, also one that would build a better, like always we were looking, apart from day one, really wanted to build a better media model. So, you know, from day one, we've never had programmatic advertisements. We don't We don't, uh, we don't have pixels like Facebook pixels, anything like that. We don't track our users. We believe in privacy and, um, and, and no cookies. And so, uh, when it comes to sort of being in crypto, um, I bought my first Bitcoin in 2013. I was, I was the, I was the top signal. I was the top signal. I bought the exact top of that market. Um, and, uh, you know, I got my dad to buy one too. And I was like, dad, trust me, it's going to come back. You know, he's happy now. He's happy now. Um, but, uh, and then 2016, 2018, Uh, I was the only person at Billboard who owned crypto or understood it at all. So I started doing a lot of coverage at the intersection of music and blockchain, trying to see how could this technology, like, you know, help with royalties or really empower artists. And so, but it really took NFTs, uh, for me to make the full-time jump into the space, because at the end of the day, I'm not a finance guy. I'm a culture guy.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, but with, with NFTs, what drew me to it was it was the technology I'd believed in for a very long time, finally disrupting fields I'm actually passionate about, like art and music and culture in a way that could empower artists. And so. The rest is history.

Wow. That's a powerful, you know, intro into this space. I think that's really cool that you're bringing all of these different elements into it. You guys clearly have a very wide spectrum of backgrounds and expertise that you've been able to capture. But you said one thing about culture.

Yeah.

And, you know, I think it was Arthur Hayes, the former CEO of BitMEX. He said culture is the most important thing in humanity. I mean, think about it. We go to, we go to baseball games, we go to music, we watch film. We do all these things to enrich our lives. If you can bring that culture on chain, you've hit the jackpot, right? And it seems that you guys are in the midst of doing that. Now, I've been to a private screening, so I've seen some highlights here, and I can say it's fantastic. What were some of the key moments for you guys in filming this? Some of the things that you— maybe one moment that you learned. I know we don't want to give much away, but if you can say, I don't know, just a little bit about your experience. Learning from all the people who did this rabbit hole deep dive into the space?

Well, I really wasn't along on many of the shoots, though my son is also a director and he's a cinematographer. And he went with Spring-Naw in some of the places. And it sounded to me, he came back and did this report to me about what they shot in Geneva. And it just sounded amazing. And the conversations that they had with—

Robot Sophia?

Yeah. And also for me, if I can just say that watching the interviews later and seeing people that I really didn't know much about, like Dr. Proctor. And there's many people that I just was not aware of, you know? And everybody just came with such insight and depth.

Mm-hmm.

You know, there's a lot of stuff I didn't know. I gotta tell you, I didn't even know Web3 was a thing. I have to tell you. In all honesty, I mean, I knew Web1, Web2. I thought we were still in Web2.

Well, many of us still are.

But now you're probably pioneer from Hollywood in Web3 now.

That's right.

Yes. Well, I probably can comment on that because I was in beginning and end of all of the shoots, right? I started in Miami at Basel 2021. I pulled Matt literally away from his team dinner in a fancy steak restaurant, and I was walking up to him like, Matt, I really would love to interview you for this documentary I'm making about this fantastic technology and art and culture. Would you please step aside for 10 minutes and share your experience with me? He was so kind and generous and trusting and gave me his time and shared his knowledge with us, literally on the sidewalk outside of this beautiful restaurant. And his whole team Who was watching us doing it.

Yeah, that's the beautiful thing about this space. It's very collaborative.

Very collaborative. And then, you know, with my crew, we went everywhere. Went to Puerto Rico, we went to Geneva, we went to Singapore, we went to People's Studio in Charleston, we filmed in LA, we filmed in Chicago, and of course our hometown, New York City, NFT NYC. Many different conferences, NFT Paris. So we went around the world to really dive deep into different projects such as Bored Ape Yacht Club, Cool Cats, Pudgy Penguin, and, you know, have up-close personal conversations with many fantastic creative artists such as Nyla Hayes, Dr. Sian Proctor, Beeple, Rafiq, you know, who are doing amazing things around the world. such as Refik, he's doing this creative NFT with Amazonian tribes and donating $2.5 million.

Yes.

Whole process back to the tribe, building their first school, things like that. Learning from those artists, knowing this art is not only changing their lives but also changing the people around them, the people who they care about. Just like you talk about collaborative and the community. So, I learned so much, not only just about the knowledge But also better faith in humanity.

Wow, that's powerful. That's something I think that we want to capture because when you told me you were doing a documentary, I thought, okay, will they be showcasing all the problems, all of, you know, the outside perception of the scams and the this and that, you know? But you're— it wasn't that way. It was more focused on the innovation and, you know, the things that are good about the space and what it is, how it is impacting technology and humanity. And, you know, with any new technology, there will also— there will always be the opportunists, there will always be the problems, but, you you know, as we work that out, something very beautiful is unfolding. And one of my favorite guests who I've had on the podcast, Yat Siu, he's the co-founder of Animoca Brands. He's a friend as well. He is just— his mentality, the way he describes it, is that we're all stakeholders now in a greater ecosystem, and we can all benefit from it instead of consumers to be extracted from, which has always been the model. So now everybody has a chance to rise. We can uplift and democratize global citizens, essentially.

Yeah, it's beautifully said. Absolutely. But we didn't shy away from the ugly and the bad actors of, you know, NFT.

Yeah, there was, you know.

And the DeFi world either, because we want to be objective and truly document the involvement and the history of Web3. As Matt famously said many times, one day in Web3 is like a year in Web2. So 2 years in making, I think really captured the rise, the peak, and the trough and a rebirth of Web3. So we do not want to shy away from that. Yet, as one of the persons I interviewed said in the film, we humans throughout the centuries, we could have been destroyed by so many things we created, such as like atomic bomb. We never have been.

That's right.

So humanity is tough and humanity is beautiful. Not believing in humanity in the end of the world.

You're right. And I think what I meant was instead of focusing on the issues, which a lot of documentaries have, it's been about one scam or one— You highlighted that as a part of the journey, but what's at the other side? One thing I wanna ask all of you that I had a guest early on in my podcast and he wasn't a Web3 guy and he said, what's on the other side of this that you guys are fighting so hard for? How would you answer that after your experience now in this film, not being a Web3 native as a Bitcoin OG, how would you guys describe that?

Well, I can jump in there and say, first off, I also wanna echo the fact that like, I think one thing I really appreciated about the documentary is that it did, it showed the good, it showed the bad, the ugly, but ultimately it did build towards a greater picture and like a brighter future, right? Um, it, I've seen too many of these, I've seen too many films or too many like things that are just kind of like hit pieces or focus on like the market element of like, and I'm like, zoom out, zoom out. You need to like not miss the forest for the trees here. There's something that I said in the documentary, um, that, you know, I, I think is really important to get across, which is like, if you look around, we're all part of the last generations to grow up without digital ownership from day one. So future generations are gonna grow up owning things digitally, owning things physically. They're not gonna have the same hangups as we do. They're not gonna worry about the same things. They're not gonna be like, how do I hang it on my wall? Right-click save, any of that stuff. They're just gonna accept them for their own unique strengths and appeals. And that's, that's the future we're building for, right? And so, you know, being able to zoom out and realize that, you understand that there's a lot of like really short-term speculation around like short-term market sentiment and price swings and things like that. At the end of the day, We are part of a digital asset revolution. We are part of a digital renaissance, and it's unfolding in, in real time. And, you know, Springna has been there from, from that early 2021 to 20— to our interview in 2022 to 2023, like the highs and the lows. Um, and I think that it's important to capture those because that is something that we see whenever there's a new technology. Uh, when the internet was, you know, when the internet was created, there was the dot-com bubble, right?

Mm-hmm.

Many of those companies ended up going to zero, but also like the Amazons and the, and the companies that now define how we live our lives online also came from that. And we're gonna see that from this movement as well. So I think it's really, really important archival work. And when you ask, like, what's the future we're building for? I think we're building for a more decentralized future, a future where empowers— where creators are empowered, where people have digital sovereignty. They're not just renters on the internet, but they actually can own, have ownership. It's the difference between audience and community. And it's really like this, like this unlock that Web3 gives us, um, which is like the ownership layer of the internet that we did not, we did not have in Web2, uh, where like we were pretty much at the mercy of ads, algorithms, and massive social media tech companies.

Yeah, I think that's beautifully put.

Um, thank you.

And that last part, to that last part, yeah, another thing Yat Siu does say is that we are all kind of essentially people working for free for Facebook and Instagram, giving them our data for free, and they're selling it back to us.

And our art and our content. Like, you know what I mean? Like it used— for artists, it used to be a likes and comments economy that they would, and they would, and the business model was, I will go and put out my work for free so that I can eventually indirectly monetize it as a middleman for brands based on the audience I'm able to accrue by playing there on their, like, on their, like, you know, unlevel playing field.

Right.

And then all it takes is an algorithm tweak and business and, you know, And media companies are going outta business, you know? And this is like, no, guess what? You can actually directly monetize by building a community and having sovereignty over your artistic output on the blockchain. Immutable, tamper-proof. Boom.

Beautiful. Beautiful. Barry, I'd love to hear from you as well, not being a Web3 native. What was on the other side of this for you? Like, what did you learn? What were your takeaways? Let me just put it this way. If someone were to come up and ask you like, what is this Web3 thing?

Well, I tell you, I came up with a title for the film that was way too long to do Crazy. You know, it hit me one day and I, and I called up Spring Knot, who basically said, what?

Yes. That took me a moment to digest.

And so, so I came up with this title that for me kind of summed up the movie. It's the feeling of it. It is the absolutely amazing, wonderful, Frightening, threatening edge of tomorrow, because that's what I got from this. I mean, it's amazing.

Yes.

And there's just people in there that are doing things that really are wonderful. And you think about these things, these elements that keep coming up. Well, yeah, that's frightening too.

Yes.

But I think that one of the things I truly like about this What's happening here is it was not predictable. And I really like that.

Mm-hmm.

As soon as you think, you know, if it was 15 years ago, only 15 years ago, you know, going back to 2009 and you said to somebody, so what's down the line? This is not what they would've said is about to happen. within a little over a decade. This is not what's going to happen.

Yeah.

You know? And so I love that because, you know, it's like, it was just like grunge music. I mean, it's just, it comes out of someplace that people who are sort of in control cannot predict. And, and They can't make it happen. It rises, it kind of rises from 2 different places. Wouldn't you say, Matt? It rises from below and from above in terms of technology. And I love things that rise from above, from below. Because that is where, that's really where fashion and where really culture rises from.

Like the grassroots movement, huh? Yeah. Yeah. And so actually I met you in an interesting circumstance that we were filming for a docuseries, a mini one where we're going around the world. Kind of like, it's a little bit more like the impromptu capture of what's happening, just doing random interviews with people around, you know, the community, people like yourself. And we saw this wonderful work of art at NFT NYC, and you were talking about its immersive qualities and about your, you know, your whole production that you guys were doing. And so ours was called NFTs Are Dead.

Yes.

And we're going around an NFT conference talking about that. And I would just go up to them and say, NFTs are— we're filming for a docuseries, NFTs Are Dead. What do you have to say about that? We give them no context. Like, if you know who I am, obviously you know that I'm very bullish on everything in Web3, but, you know, just no context. And their knee-jerk reactions of like how defensive they were and how, you know, that was just so not true was really interesting to me. And that's something that I really like to capture the essence of. And you also had a wonderful, you know, commentary on that. So what was one of the things that surprised you the most about when you were filming, or maybe one thing you learned or one moment? I know there were so many moments. I just, I know there were a lot of, there were a few dramatic moments as well that I don't want to give away, but what can you guys say for the audience that, what can they anticipate of things that might not expect?

Not to give away too many details, as you said, but I do want to share we do dive deep into some headline news, including the famous sale of BPO's 5,000 Days Every Day. What's behind the scenes? Without giving away too much, so learning from both the creator and also the auction house, and as well as the the moment creator meaning MetaCoven, the buyer of the amazing piece of NFT art. I think that's one of the critical moments of the filmmaking. You know, to talk to people from all different sides of that moment made NFT. and actually brought NFT into a lot of public's attention because before, they're probably just more for natives. But if I may go back to why, what I hope to build for the film, because I want to comment on that a little bit, if that's okay. Because as why, as a producer, I spent 2 years and a half of my life—

A long time.

To make this documentary and being resilient of doing it because along the way, it's a lot of obstacles, it's a lot of ups and downs, not easy. There are many other attractive opportunities actually rise along the way, but I never gave up to do it. It's because of 3 reasons I'm doing it. Number one, I hope to educate the world about this amazing rise of Web3. And because it, as Barry said, it's wonderful, amazing, terrifying, yet threatening. So it's only 5% of world population right now owns digital wallets. The rest of the world, 95% of them know very little or skeptical or hesitate about learning of it. And there's a lot of like negative media on this territory. So I hope to bring like objective light among the creators, founders in the space, and allow the people outside to come in in a very welcoming, non-threatening, and enjoyable way to sit back on your couch with your friends or family, loved ones and have popcorn, enjoy film of Web3. So help the people to learn. Number 2 is I also hope to honor the beautiful human beings and community in the space who created, you know, this movement. Because I think the film, one of the reasons I want to make it, it's like time capsule, as Matt said, archival work of the history in making.

Mm-hmm.

Maybe 30 years down the road, we all own digital arts and digital assets and we don't think twice about it like we buy things from Amazon today. But if you think back of what's happening now, maybe a blurb in the long journey of the history of Web3. So I want to document that. I just felt obligation to do it for some reason because nobody else is doing it. Or I don't think quality work. Sorry, but I haven't seen it.

No, I agree. I think it's important to get quality work out there that Showcases what's happening.

Yeah, one thing I like film is because I want to— I think film tells stories and tells story in a profound way, impacts souls and minds from people around the world you cannot meet in person, maybe millions, or maybe over time tens or hundreds of millions of them. Maybe some of the great movies you made have had that profound impact. So hopefully one day my movie can reach that level of significance. Then number 3 is because I am you know, American Chinese. I was born in China. I came here as a student and ended up having a great time, ended up having a, you know, fantastic journey as a human being, as a professional, you know, dabbling into different industries in Wall Street and in diplomacy. As you mentioned, I served as a special advisor to 3 governors of Alabama on China trade, investment, commerce. That's how we met.

Wow.

And in the end, I wanted to Leaning into film, not because it's easy, actually it's because it's hard and never done it.

I like that.

And also a friend of mine told me, if you have 2 choices, one's to do something crazy and challenging, one's do something normal and boring, do the first one. It's going to be harder, but it's a hell of a lot more fun.

Yeah, and that human growth, that growth that happens, I feel like if you're not doing that, you're not growing. And we must strive to constantly grow as human beings and evolve.

Yeah, so last purpose, hopefully my journey can be inspiring to some others, you know, wondering what they want to do with their life. And just try it, follow your passion.

That's amazing. That's inspirational to so many that are watching this that are thinking not only of doing something like that, but diving deep into this frightening world or intimidating world that it might seem. This gives them a lot of maybe confidence to take that first step.

Yeah, lead it and take the first step.

Uh, Matt, I have a question for you. I get a lot of times, you know, uh, these traditional finance, even if they're very high up in what they do and they've traded stocks, they're really successful. They'll come to me and they'll ask me, what is Bitcoin? What is Web3? Like, what is the most important part about it? So it's interesting. Every time I choose a different way to talk about it. What, what would your answer be? Or how do you explain it to your friends who don't know anything?

Yeah. Yeah.

Uh, right before I jump into that, I just want to also say like, you know, just to highlight it kind of like bookend Spring's point, like, During the bull run, I was interviewed for a number of different documentary projects, and this is the only one that has actually seen it, like, come to fruition, you know, like, that has actually, you know, like, gone, gone from idea to reality. And that's a testament to the team. And that's a testament to them being, like, really there for the right reasons and really, like, true believers. It's very easy in the, in a bull run to be like, yeah, let's be part of this. Let's be part of this. It's really the bear markets that show us, like, who's, who are the real believers, the people who are consistently showing up. So I just want to highlight that.

Yeah.

Um, that's, it's really, like, something that I think is really So do you think that they just lost interest? Lost— it could be interest, funding, you know, whatever. I would say it's a mixture of all of it. It's a mixture of all of it. You know, they— and, you know, look, like, I saw the film, you know, for the first time recently, and I also— I told Springna, you know, one of the things I also really appreciated is it would have been easy to make it just like a period kind of piece, but like she kept iterating and evolving it and having it like— and it still, even though much of it was shot at different periods in that, it still felt current and relevant because tying into, like, a greater whole, tying into what's happening in AI and things like that. Like, you kind of continually refresh it and kept it fresh while also being archival. And that's a tough balance to strike.

Right.

And I thought it did it really well. And again, like, I think it's really important to have these pieces of work come out. This is important archival work. And so I'm really pleased. I just wanted to highlight that because, you know, it's— you know, again, like, you know, I remember, like, sitting for a lot of interviews, but, like, this one, this is, like, the first one I've seen really come to the screen. And so that's a testament to the team.

That's a really good point. You did fantastic work. The whole team did fantastic work. And I like your point about the bear market because you made me remember one thing, or one thing so many times it was repeated to me. I'd have people who knew me or friends or family coming, oh, you're still here. Like, what do you mean I'm still here? Like, this is my life. This is like, I would never, it just didn't even occur to me that people could think that.

Yeah.

But that's where we are at now, right, Barry? I mean, that's the sentiment that we have in this space. So it's kind of interesting to me that people see it as such a like, transient thing when for me it's like my everything now. Right? Like, so, uh, did you get that? Did you see that sentiment in the film from the people?

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm, uh, but also to the point that all of you are making, you know, most people don't have really much of a sense of history. I mean, you know, I mean, they look at the United States and say, yeah, we're a successful country. You know, our first 2 governments failed. Our first 2 governments failed. All right, you know George Washington really wasn't the first president, you know. And yeah, but you think, but they look back and say, well, you know we threw the British out and and voilà, we're a big success. Well, you know everything has a it it's growing, you know. I mean this thing exploded and went way beyond what it could handle. that scene could handle, don't you think, Matt? Yeah.

And, and, you know, I think, I think, um, I, I agree. And it, like, and it's— look, look, we, we see this with, like, new technologies, especially ones that allow for— that are tied to, you know, highly financialized markets, especially ones that offer, um, like, instant liquidity and, like, this sort of, like, permissionless element that comes to it with crypto. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting because, like, You know, in 2013, when I bought my first Bitcoin, I thought it was late because the chart still looked like this and I was buying at the top of it. But now, and then, but now if you look back, that whole chart is a tiny blip in the rearview compared to everything that's come. Right. And that's why I think it's so important to zoom out. Right. And so I was like, oh, like 2013, wow, this is the Wild West. It's, there's still elements that are, that feel like the Wild West. Right. Yeah. It takes, it takes time.

Like, thank God.

Yeah.

Definitely.

Like, if you think about it, we only just got the Bitcoin ETFs after a decade of, of, of work, more than a decade of work. And, and so like when it's, when people, um, there are a lot of people also who, who, who came into, uh, crypto and Web3 through NFTs in 2021 for whom this was their first crypto cycle. And, you know, there's, there's something to be said for having gone through multiple cycles. Um, because it makes you, it rewards conviction and it makes you understand. I, I remember when I look back, um, you know, at, at that first cycle, like when, you know, as again, I was the top signal when Bitcoin crashed, I didn't sell any, but I didn't double, triple, quadruple down because I was like, even though I believed in the tech, I believed in the white paper, I believed these things. I was also a bit shaken by, by that. And, and I think it really took 2016 to '18 to see it all come back again and flourish in a much bigger way. We'd be like, okay, I was on to something. I was right. And that conviction kind of was rewarded. And then that's what gave me the conviction to just drop what was a very cushy media job at Modern Luxury and jump in on a web3 NFT media startup. My people thought I was insane, right?

It takes 2 cycles to truly become successful in this market. 2 cycles, because you develop that kind of more mature mentality as an investor, as like somebody, value investor who's investing for the long term. Definitely zooming out is the only way to go here, in my opinion. And you said you bought the top in 2013. I mean, look where we are now. And I said this—

I wish I could buy the top in 2013 again, you know, $900 Bitcoin, like sign me up.

Maybe we'll be saying that about the top of this market. I mean, yeah, definitely. We will be right. It's just greater, greater quantities every time. Exactly. Floor rises as we were talking about before.

It continues to rise.

Let's not forget, like in the 1970s, New York was dead as well, right? That's what everybody said.

History is a mirror.

Oh, it's dead.

It's over. Sayonara. Good riddance, right?

And here we are.

And here we are.

When I bought in 2018, I thought I was late too. Now I wish I could have done more.

Exactly, exactly. And you know, to answer your question, I know you did ask about like sort of like you know explaining Bitcoin blockchain to people. I try to. stay away from technical jargon as much as possible, because I, I just, I watch people's eyes glaze over, you know? And I think that like the really important thing to just get across is that this technology enables digital ownership in a way that wasn't possible before. Period. You can now own things digitally. That can be, that can be proven, uh, immutably tamper-proof. Uh, like there is a public record that nobody can change and it allows for provable digital ownership in a way that just was not possible before.

Yeah. And, you know, like as Michael Saylor says, it is portable digital property. It's borderless. So you can pick it up and bring it with you anywhere you go in the world, and you have full custody over it if you're self-custodying, if you have it in your own possession. So digital ownership is the North Star of Web3. And in a lot of countries, you know, they haven't had this ownership. We take it for granted in the US because we've had these rights But in so many countries in the world, you know, they've never been able to own something truly, right? And so it's really profoundly impacting the world in so many ways. I love all the— you know, they say this is the year of RWA, which has become a catchphrase, but real-world assets now is kind of like what I feel is gonna resonate with the average person because they understand, oh, this is real estate, this is some use case that's happening instead of just, you know, these concepts that are intangible. So Propy, one of the companies that I work with, they're bringing real estate on-chain, which is super cool. Zebu, who's powering this, this podcast this season, they're doing telecom settlements on-chain and, and like really streamlining that industry. So it's so cool to see that we're actually providing solutions with this tech now for real, like Web2 real business models, right? Like the tech is ready. That's what Cathie Wood said. And now we're just diving headfirst into how do we make the world a better place and how do we make things easier and streamline and— You guys, it's been fantastic. As we wrap this up, I'd like to hear your vision for— now after having gone through this production and the film and everything— your vision for where we're going to be in the next 5 to 10 years. You know, some people say price-wise that Bitcoin's going to hit $1 million by 2030. I know Tim Draper, who, you know, has also been on my show as a friend, he has this vision of, you know, eventually Bitcoin is going to be what we all transact in and that we're going to live in a Bitcoin society, you know. So where do you guys think we'll be? I mean, the price is just a reflection of adoption, right, is what I'm talking about. So where do you guys think we'll be in the next 5 to 10 years with this technology in every way? Who would like to start with this loaded question?

Wow.

Matt would like to start.

Okay. Well, look, it's very difficult to make predictions in a space that moves as fast as Web3. Like Spring has said, I think weeks are months and months are years, right? Like, 10 years ago, I didn't know what an NFT was, right? And could not have told you that, like, we would see what we've seen. Um, what I do think I can say definitively is that we are going to continue to see this, our world become more digitally native. Uh, we are going to see more use cases emerge for this technology. Um, I, one thing I often say is that, like, the use cases for NFTs that really took off during the first bull run were ones in which, like, the value proposition of their physical counterparts is really clear, right? Like digital art. We can all, we all can understand the concept of like, you know, investing in art, art as an asset class, buying a painting at Sotheby's, you know, and then having that go up in value, you know, in, in the long term, right? Be a store of value and also appreciate. Um, digital collectibles, same thing, right? Trading cards, Pokémon, like, you know, like figurines, all of that. We like the, the physical, like equivalent of that and the value proposition there. Very, very clear. Where I think it gets really interesting is when you think about how this technology can actually, um, impact use cases that are a little less obvious. Like, music is an interesting one coming from, you know, the music industry. Um, you know, what is the, what is the ownership, like, process? Like, what is, what is the ownership prospect around music, right? Because we've gone from, you know, paying $15 to $20 for a CD to $9.99 for all the access to all the music in the world, right?

Right.

And there's a value disconnect there, but at the end of the day, there's still the power of fandom to tap into. So what can you use this technology to do to reward fans in a way that goes, you know, crazy there? So I think that there are a lot of emerging use cases that still haven't necessarily found their moment, but are still really interesting and important. Thinking about digital fashion, luxury, uh, like you said, real-world assets, um, you know, even just more mundane use cases like titles to property or deeds to cars or, you know, just a record of, of, uh, of transactions and a record of, of, um, of like ownership of just digital items being, being attached to real-world assets as well. So, you know, I think we're just going to start to see this, our world become increasingly more digital. And as a result of that, we are going to need a transaction layer. We are going to need an ownership layer, and we're going to need one that's not controlled by, uh, corp, you know, centralized corporations that can, you know, that are, uh, that could be subject to exploitation and hacks. And, and, uh, and we're going to need, uh, a way of being able to like really prove this. You know what we're, you know, at NOW Media, for example, we're building the future of on-chain media. We believe on-chain is the next evolution of the internet. You know, and that's the way stories are gonna be told and gonna be consumed. And we're gonna need a way in the age of AI and misinformation to be able to say, hey, this was published by this publication in the form in which it appears, right? Things that we've taken for granted. But as the documentary shows, with the rise of AI, you can no longer believe your eyes and your ears, right? With the rise of deepfakes. So we're gonna need that. And so what I can say is that technology has always pushed storytelling forward. It's always pushed art and culture forward. And so this is going to do so at an incredibly rapid and I think exciting pace.

Oh yeah.

And that's the short answer.

Yeah, but I think if I can share my short answer.

Absolutely.

First of all, bravo, I love your answer. I'll give my short version of my answers. I think in the next, you mentioned 5 years, what it may look like. Like, I think it'd be wider adoption of Web3 technology for creators, collectors, and also investors. I think cryptocurrencies as well as digital assets, including NFTs or multimedia arts, will be another category of investments. Just coming from, you know, investment perspective, people are diversifying different type of portfolios in the past, traditional stocks and bonds, PE, real estate, but in the future will be in crypto assets as well as digital assets and multimedia arts. I think there will be— we already see 8 ETFs for Bitcoin approved this year. So it's just a massive movement.

Most successful in history, actually.

Yeah, for AI, I think I was with Bill Gates for New York Economic Club last December, and he told us how much he believed in AI and the 40% of traditional jobs, if I remember correctly.

40%?

If I remember correctly, so I double-checked my number, but it's an astonishing number. Traditional jobs will be eliminated because of AI. So, that is very big cautionary tales. I think people today, instead of— if you don't want to be replaced by AI, or if you don't want your jobs, your skill set To be replaced by AI, you have to be the master of the technology so you can control it and be very useful with that tech and also become irreplaceable. So, I think also the documentary can help people learn of this industry.

And imagine that, I think AI, like you said really amazingly there, it's gonna force us to elevate our experience on this world, on this planet, right? To focus on, you know, or elevate a task kind of being the master of the technology, you have to focus on different aspects of your work.

Yes, as we interviewed Justin Rosenstein, who is an early employee for Facebook, and he said in Web2, you do not want to become a free employee for major technology social media companies and to be contributing for them, not getting compensated, become spending your time attention on the social media platform because of the algorithm to grab your attention. So with AI, same thing, you have to be extremely— I think we all have to be extremely cautious how we utilize it and then not to just become slaves of big data companies.

Oh yeah, oh yeah, that's absolutely one of the points that I gathered in that AI segment of your film was so interesting. So thank you for that, Springna. And Barry, we'd love to hear your thoughts as a filmmaker.

It's going to be amazing. It's going to be wonderful.

What about film? Are we all going to be talking about this? Yeah.

Film, you know, I was reading a piece yesterday about how YouTube has taken this huge market share. I mean, big market share. And, you know, we thought, well, Netflix, Amazon, that's where we're going. We're going somewhere else.

Interesting.

We are. And we don't know yet where we're going and where we're going to land in 5 years or 10 years. And I have a feeling that Netflix, like ABC, CBS, and NBC, are the past.

Interesting. That's a very interesting take. Yeah, those are the kind of, you know, gems we want to discover on shows like this from all different backgrounds. You know, as a filmmaker, you guys are among the first to make films about this, you know, this subject matter. So I think that's truly special. And it's been really interesting. I will say one of my favorite parts is about the beginning when Beeple was being interviewed and behind that epic $69 million sale, right? That was super interesting. And, um, that— yeah, there were so many highlights for me. Uh, but as we wrap this up, I know that you talked about music. Uh, we're all among the first— like, we could be among the next Jeff Bezos, you know, sitting around here talking about our, our beginnings here.

Absolutely.

And, and one of my first guests, Body Wi-Fi, he helped, uh, Snoop Dogg bring his music on-chain. So that, that was so— you know, we're sitting around here talking about this, we're all at arm's length because Because everyone needs to learn. So it's so collaborative. We're just within reach of anything we want to set our minds to. It's really, really cool. I want to thank you guys all again for being here. What a fantastic job you did on Nifty Thirty, all of you as a team, you as a producer, executive producer Matt. Your part was absolutely phenomenal as well. And when can we expect to see this?

Well, we are in the world film festival circuit right now. Hopefully the rest of the world can see the film beginning of next year.

But I think it will premiere by the end of this year.

Well, premiering, I think, by the end of this year, but on major international distribution platforms such as Netflix—

In 2025.

Yeah, they'll be in 2025.

All right.

Stay tuned.

That's the year. We'll be waiting for it. I cannot wait for this to premiere and for us to gather again next year. See where we'll be at. As you said, one year is like—I don't know how many years that is in the traditional world versus Web Three. So much will have happened. It's a very exciting time, and I just want to thank you all again for being here. Thank you.

Thanks for having us. You'll be first to be invited.