Crypto Megan Podcast | Rise of SquidGrow: Shibtoshi and Zeebu on Web3, privacy, and Crypto Adoption

They said, you can't do it, it can't be done, and if you do it, it's not gonna work properly. That, for me, is motivation. Let me show you. You have even maybe friends in your circle that try to pull you down, try to keep you from, you know, achieving your greatness that you haven't yet potentially tapped into, you know. So you got these naysayers. Don't, don't let 'em hold you down. If you have your goals and your ambitions, you know, commit to it fully. Someone somewhere is attempting to outwork you. You just gotta keep grinding, you know. You set your goals, you set your sights on something, just whatever it takes, seize it. You know, pursue it.

One thing I will say is you are one of the youngest CEOs I know, but, you know, talking to you and listening to you, you would never know that.

I'm a research-driven person. Actually, the younger you are, your ability to absorb data is higher. You have a lot less barriers in your brain that make you believe that some things aren't possible. It also parallelly makes you more ambitious because as you go on through life, you see more and more struggles, and most people throughout their life learn to not try new things. My number one suggestion would be take risks. So you have to be smart about it. You have to ensure, most importantly, that you're solving a problem.

I'm really literally willing to do whatever it takes if I want something to work out, if I think it's important enough, if it makes a big enough impact. I think that's a quality you all have here, and that's why you're here.

I know this can create massive, massive impact for anybody who is aspiring to break the glass ceiling of being middle class to an upper middle class or, you know, create some wealth for their loved ones. I think this is the place to be. This is a space that will help and enable all of us, especially the founders and builders, to leave this world a better place and a great place.

Welcome to the Crypto Megan Podcast. I'm your host, Megan Nielsen. I'm a high-end crypto and NFT portfolio and Web3 strategy consultant. I'm currently on a world tour as a Web3 keynote speaker at all the biggest Web3, tech, and fintech events around the world as an industry leader To educate anyone from beginner to C-level executive, and of course, to advocate for women in Web3. My mission is to inspire new people to get involved in the crypto and NFT space with quality, entertaining information they can trust as pioneers in this cultural and financial revolution, a paradigm shift. My name is Megan Nielsen, aka Crypto Megan, coming to you from our studios here in Hollywood, where all the magic is happening during the VCon week, and we have a very Special guest with us here today, a man who needs no introduction in the crypto space. As most of us know him now from seeing him all over the world, Zibo included. But his name is Shiptoshi, an early Bitcoin supporter since 2011, a real OG, and among the top Shiba Inu whales, a certified crypto billionaire. He's known for his strong work ethic and commitment to building lasting legacies with his projects, leading and financing Squid Grow, which we also know and love. And he's passionate about leaving a significant mark in the crypto space. Shytoshi, welcome to the show.

Hey, thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

Yeah, it's so fun that we're all here in Hollywood. I mean, first time we saw you, I don't remember where that was.

New York.

Actually, it was in New York. New York. And ever since then, we've been running into each other around the world. Last time was Consensus. I'm also joined, as you may have seen in earlier episodes, by the Zebu team. So we've got the CEO and founder of Zebu, Raj, and the co-founder and CMO, Raghav. Guys, we're here again all together.

Happy to be here, yeah.

It's a special occasion. Do you remember when was the first time that you met Shiptoshi?

Oh yeah, so, um, so this was at an after-party. We, we like, Zebu went and, uh, DCC I think it was.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah. And then, um, we are at the after-party and then we see this powerful personality walking in and, you know, with all the security and all of that. And we are like, dude, honey, we need to talk to him. And then like, I mean, we were like no voice, right? So I tried approaching him and then the secretary's like, sir, what do you want?

Yeah.

And this was like a scene out of a Bollywood movie. So it was so much fun. But yeah, I mean, that was our first encounter. And then we started having a lot of discussions and phenomenal guy, a man with a golden heart.

Yes.

Someone who has been having very, very deep and intellectual conversations with. And we have loved our journey and partnership since the very first time. But yeah, the first time was very special for us.

Yeah, I remember that moment at DCC actually. You are one of the friendliest people in this space despite the somewhat intimidating exterior, if you will. And so I remember I said, hey, Shytoshi, like, I want to present you to Zebu. And, you know, like, we all became friends. It's like, you're very open. I love that. You're really welcoming to everybody here in this crypto space. And just so people know who you are, like, tell us a little bit about your background, the origin story.

Yeah, absolutely. So I found crypto in 2011. I actually found it in Vegas on the poker tables. I just got wiped out for $250K. at the area, and my buddies were trying to pull me into an online poker game. Unfortunately, I didn't have any more marker because I had just lost all of it. And they had told me that the buy-in is actually Bitcoin. And I was like, what is this Bitcoin stuff? I had previously heard about it, but didn't do any due diligence into it. And one of my guys kind of pulled me aside and said that he'd OTC me. I'm like, what's an OTC? And essentially, he spot me the Bitcoin. So I took possession of $30,000 in Bitcoin for the poker game. And obviously took care of him when we got back home. But unfortunately, the Bitcoins that I possessed at that particular time, I ended up losing on the poker tables. But when I got back home, I read the white paper, started doing my due diligence, joined the forums, and I just became a believer. It was everything that I believed that we needed following the 2008 crash. And I really loved the aspect of it, of taking control of your finances again, and not having to have any oversight from Big Brother, aka the government or the banks. And just being able to transact privately and anonymously without anybody taking central authority over your assets. So I became a true supporter and believer and started dollar-cost averaging into my Bitcoin position. And then that opened up the doors into my dabbles in the crypto space. So immediately following that, my next investment was Namecoin. Followed by Litecoin. And then some plays here and there in between, eventually Ethereum, working my way up to 2020, where I was introduced to Shiba Inu. And I started dollar-cost averaging into that 5 hours after launch.

2020, this is?

2020, yeah. 2020, this is, yeah. And started dollar-cost averaging into my position. 37 ETH in, $13,500. I know there's a misconception of that whole $8,000 investment. I've tried to correct it, but it is what it is.

Stands corrected here and now.

Yeah, yeah. I always try to do that. But yeah, kind of involved myself in that, in that community and just became a supporter and a believer. And it was around that time, actually, probably a couple months after that, 2011, my friends started taking notice of crypto and my substantial lifestyle changes. And although I had tried to pull my friends into crypto in the earlier years, nobody wanted anything to do with it. They started dabbling into crypto, finding all the rugs and, you know, bad actors in the space. And it was around that time that they were trying to twist my arm to do my own project. And Initially, I was very reluctant. I had no interest in it. I'm just a crypto guy. I don't know the first thing about being a developer of a project. But with some persistence from them, I started opening my mind up to it, and I took a 6-week Solidity course. Still can't code a smart contract to save my life, but I do what I can. But I decided to take the plunge. And in June of 2022, I launched Squid Grow on the BSC chain, stealth launch, $25K market cap, all-time high for us.

There's so many interesting facts. You're just going like, casually, but I just want to stop you for a minute. So you invest— you invested— now you stand corrected— this $13,000, you said, right, in SHIB. And then that investment eventually grew into a very big holding for you. So you're one of the biggest Shiba whales.

Absolutely. At that particular time, I was the number one whale.

Number one whale. Okay. And so then with that investment, I mean, you think, okay, you have all the money you need now, why get into a new project? So you— what's really interesting to me is how much effort you put into this, because You say you read the Bitcoin white paper. I mean, not many people read white papers before getting involved. So clearly you've done your homework. You're very interested in the space. You want to know more. And on the exterior, it may seem that you're just maybe a Johnny-come-lately with a flashy mask and this guy, who is he just coming in? Typical crypto, but you're not. And I really love what you stand for because it's very cool. So I just want to make sure the audience realizes that, you know, you don't have to be doing these new projects, but you want to. You have a passion for it. And now you founded Squid Grow.

Correct.

And what was the reasoning behind Squid Grow?

To, to give a safe place for my friends and family to invest their money. That's how it started. And obviously that has evolved to my, my community. Obviously, uh, day one of launch for Squid Grow, I didn't know my community. It was about the people that I did know, was my friends and family. And, uh, you know, I wanted to kind of push them in the direction that I was pushed into by my friends on the poker tables. And, uh, knowing that the the type of power that cryptocurrency has, the ability to change lives and generations. I really wanted my friends to be a part of that because, you know, traveling, going around the world by yourself is not fun when your friends have to work. You know, you have your circle of friends that you do it with, but that gets old. You know, you want to take your best friends around along for the ride, and sometimes you can, but, you know, they're kind of chained to their jobs, their 9-to-5.

Yeah.

So that was, that was why Squid Grow was founded. That's why I launched Squid Grow for my friends and family. And now it's obviously expanded to my community.

That's really cool. And before we get more into Squid Grow and then, you know, get your guys's, uh, opinion on everything that's happening here, what's, uh, what's behind it? Like, what's with the mask? Tell us a little bit about that.

So, uh, my initial attraction to obviously cryptocurrency was, um, the aspect that, you know, unlike bank accounts, right, everybody knows who you are. You know, you're— at least your bank knows who you are. You have the ability in crypto to kind of have your investments or your wealth. And, you know, nobody knows who you are. Big Brother doesn't know who you are. You have a public Bitcoin address. At that time, it was Bitcoin. And you transact, you know, on-chain, but nobody knows the owner of that. So I was really attracted to the, you know, the privacy aspect of it. And then, you know, because I'm early in the space and I'm known to possess large amounts of money, obviously that becomes a security risk. So originally, I did not plan on being Remaining anonymous, actually. Truth be told, we were all going to be doxxed on the website. But then through blockchain tracking, some early community members started tracking back wallets to the deployer. The question came out, you know, why is there— you know, what's this link to a SHIB wallet? You know, what's the story here? You know, is he the founder? And an early founder of Squid Grow with me came out without, you know, asking me my thoughts on it and told that community member that, yeah, he's the SHIB whale. Wow. Fortunately for us, we weren't on the website at that point in time, so we just put a halt on that, and then it was full-blown anonymous since then. And, uh, you know, my plan was always to be able to interact and communicate openly with my, with my community, but, you know, we just had to kind of alter the direction of that. So, you know, I chose to remain active but showing face, you know, I wear a mask. So, um, you know, there's a lot of security risk to that, you know. I mean, you see all these crypto millionaires that are getting kidnapped and coming up missing and so on and so forth, especially when you have And friends that you have to protect. That's what it's about. Because we in crypto, we don't have an FDIC, right? We're a walking bank. So the perception is that anybody with large amounts of crypto, they're walking around with it on their phone, which in most cases isn't— this isn't the case. But people that don't know that, you know, deem you as a target.

Which is the majority of the world, really.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I have the ability to obviously come out, shake hands, speak publicly as Shytoshi, but I can go home, take my mask off, blend in, you know, go to restaurants, not get hassled, not get tracked down, so.

No, that's interesting. I ask about the mask too, because obviously everybody wants to know. What's it made of, by the way?

Nobody knows.

Nobody knows, okay. It's a secret. It's really beautiful.

Don't want to put any targets on my head.

We don't need more targets. I just, I have these questions from the community I gotta ask, but yeah, it's understandable. And the reason I asked about the mask in the first place is 'cause we talked about yesterday, we had a really deep dive with the Zebu founders about their backgrounds and who they were. why they chose not to be anonymous and put their face out there. And yet you are anonymous, but it's not for the reasons that most people think. And you're anonymous, but you're here showing face. I mean, it's really cool because you're actually just advocating for what blockchain is supposed to have, or the direction that it should go anyway, which is privacy. So you're here putting your face out there. You're advocating for your community, although you don't have to dox who you are. And that's one of the new paradigm shifts of this whole revolution is that we can now interact with people without needing to know who they are based on other things?

Absolutely. I believe everybody has the right to remain private. You know, these guys, they chose to show their face, right? You know, that was a right that they had, a decision that they made. So I believe everybody has, you know, their basic rights that they're entitled to. So, you know, the people, the founders out there that choose to show face and shake hands, you know, that was a choice they made. You know, I obviously have my reasons why I remain anonymous. And, you know, I hope that everybody respects that. Of course, it doesn't change the fact that I'm not going I'm not going to go to these events, and I'm not going to have a one-on-one conversation with you and shake hands and so on and so forth. But I've got loved ones I have to protect.

Absolutely. And that's what I mean. You're actually advocating for the right to privacy in crypto, even though you're out here actually interacting with people. It's not like the typical anonymous— when people think about this from the outside, it's got a stigma to it, right? Oh, privacy, it must be nefarious. It must be bad. But yet you're here, you're interacting, you're there for the community. You just don't need to dox your face in this case. I think it's interesting because it's not what people may think. Privacy is actually a right. We advocate for it in Web2. We wouldn't want our bank accounts to be displayed for everyone to see in traditional ways of doing things. So that brings me to now the topic of your partnership that you've just launched with SilentSwap and Zebu. Guys, tell us about that.

Yeah, absolutely. Look, I mean, so I'll kind of trace it back to the first time I met Shib, right? So, you know, Zebu is kind of more TradFi and Web2 focused, not in the sense of our services, but in the sense of our clients and the clients that we are converting to Web3. We kind of act as a bridge between Web2 and Web3 financial services when it comes to global remittances and payments. So when it comes to my personal ecosystem and my daily activities, it's a little bit farther away from decentralization and kind of decentralized finance and independence as a whole, right? So when I first, uh, saw Shytoshi at the afterparty, I was extremely intrigued. I'm like, oh, like this guy with the mask on and the bodyguards, it's really cool, I'd love to meet him, right? And then after that, at that point, we just kind of met as 2 people in the industry who were just interested in talking. Uh, at one point we got on the phone together and we started talking about the different things we could potentially do together, and I think this is a very exciting announcement we just made about 2 days ago that SilentSwap is going to be integrated into the Zebu platform, and our 109 institutional clients will be able to do millions of dollars in transactions per day using SilentSwap.

Wow.

I mean, the importance behind this becomes a safer way to aggregate liquidity, because a lot of people, it's not that they want to maintain privacy, but they also want to save their funds from hacking attempts. Right?

Right.

That is another thing that SilentSwap protects our clients against. They're moving large amounts of funds. And along with that, it also kind of gives them an entrance into a bigger layer of decentralization, right? Something that these guys haven't experienced before. So right before this podcast, we were discussing how, how do we kind of give these TradFi legacy-based institutions the opportunity to experience this service and truly learn about it? And that's where kind of the magic behind Web3 comes in around digital assets and incentive mechanisms, the way you're able to get creative when you do learn and earn campaigns, etc. So yeah, I mean, it's, it's an absolutely exciting partnership that we're jumping into. I think it works really well for both of us, right? It's 2 different sides of the spectrum and this is exactly what Web3 needs today. It needs people that are kind of focused on Web3 native products, but also people that are going to bring in TradFi funds and liquidity. So yeah, absolutely excited about it.

Wow. Very cool. I mean, so what we— this goes back to what we were talking about before is that in order for this space to scale, as I understand it, we need that privacy factor. We can't scale without it. We can't get institutional liquidity without that privacy. And it's not a nefarious thing. It's not a bad thing. It's not people want to do weird stuff in crypto. Like the outside world perceives, right? It's just simply we have those rights in the traditional world and we need to have them in blockchain. You're a walking, living, breathing advocate for that, you know, as it is. So that's a really exciting partnership. I think that it'll inspire a lot of people to kind of look into SilentSwap and, and the reasons for doing so. Yeah, yeah.

And, and also it kind of fits very well into our whole thesis and the DNA of Zebu, right? I mean, we, like we were discussing in our last episode as well, Zebu is centered around how do we bring in more innovation, how do we bring— how do we push the envelope in the industry, and how can we make sure this space is more trustworthy, more credible, and all of that. Um, and I mean, if you look at the history of Zebu and our partnerships, there are only a handful of partnerships we have done. And this partnership, again, uh, you know, marks the milestone that we are very serious about people who are innovative, who think about customer first, and who are very, very conscious about how the technology can help solve the problem. So it has been a perfect fitment. I mean, obviously it was not an overnight partnership. We had, uh, you know, extreme, you know, multiple levels of due diligence in terms of technology, in terms of platform, in terms of, you know, how will the platforms talk to each other and all of that. Um, you know, a few POCs to make sure that this is a fabulous, you know, tailor-made partnership. And here we are.

Yeah.

So happy to have this partnership and take off.

Oh, that's amazing. I mean, congrats on that. That's a huge milestone. And I'd like to shift gears back to Squid Grow for a minute now as we take a look at the market as it is now and the up-and-coming trends. Utility tokens absolutely is going to be RWA. It is the year of real-world assets, and meme coins seem to have taken their place in this market cycle as well. Coming from an early SHIB, if not one of the earliest SHIB investors, how have you seen the meme coins have evolved and where does Squid Grow fit into that now?

Yeah, so obviously I think there's always going to be a place at the table for meme coins. You know, I don't, I don't think they're going to be going away anytime soon. You know, year after year, you know, there's at least a couple meme coins that are just attaining billions of market cap and very quickly. I think there's a high level of attraction to, you know, memes. You know, but from my perspective, you know, in most cases, the meme coins that do very well, but then kind of very quickly fall off the radar, you know, how do you bring liquidity back to that particular meme? And how do you reignite that initial hype that it once had? And for me, it's utility. So obviously Squid Grow is, we started out life as a meme token, but we had very early ambitions to develop utility. So for me, you know, I understand that, you know, I want hang on to the meme aspect of the project, but I also want to have the serious real-world utility aspect as well. So we are the best of both worlds, in my opinion. So we have, you know, like the cool little image that the community, you know, can make little images of and chill it around on X and so on and so forth. But then we have like the serious aspect of utilities where we start getting into like the Web2 and the business level utility. And, you know, I think that when you add value to the masses with utility and then you inject some of that revenue into your token in the form of buybacks or liquidity injections, that's just an attraction that I think is overwhelming. And that is how I feel that you can reignite any initial hype that you once had. And for me, you know, we plan on doing that with utility. You know, we once did 2,000x at all-time high for us, and we did it relatively quick.

So 2,000x.

Wow.

I mean, you don't get those kind of returns in the stock market, any other markets.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think it's a testament to strong leadership too, which is interesting because it can be decentralized, but having a figure like you or a team like you guys being the forefront and the, and the people who are kind of leading the revolution, so to speak, or guiding it, I think that that's a really important aspect and, and quite possibly one of the key factors in the success you've had up until now.

Yeah, right.

Being able to guide and direct that, uh, that movement essentially.

Absolutely. And, and I think the other cool part of the whole, uh, Squid team is it brings a lot of Web3 culture.

Yeah.

Um, one of the fanboy moments for us was at the Karate Combat, uh, you know, the way they are kind of promoting the sport while still being cool, bringing in that culture. And, and I think this is what the community also wants to look forward for, right? I mean, one is, yeah, all the technology, all the innovation, all the ease, you know, great technology and all of that. But on the other side, you know, how can we engage community? How can we bring in some real sport? How can we kind of bring all of us together with one, you know, common cause. Uh, I mean, we, we were very fortunate. I mean, you know, they kind of invited, extended the invitation to us when we saw a lot of friends from the industry, um, Gary Cardone, and I mean, a lot of them were there and we saw, we enjoyed the sport. And I think this is something that they're doing very, very consciously. I mean, a brilliant thing about promoting the sport, uh, bringing the community together.

So yeah.

Web3 is all about equity, right? So it's supposed to be accessible and available for everyone that wants to participate in the ecosystem, no matter who you are, your financial capability, your demographic. It's supposed to be equal and equitable.

Yeah.

So I think the culture aspect that you guys are driving is it creates a sort of relatable— it makes it relatable for people, right? It's because when you look at a guy in a suit on Wall Street, it's not relatable for most people, right? You could be a blue-collar worker, you could be you know, an artist, etc., it's like you just don't kind of relate with that specific demographic. But when you talk about, you know, cartoons, NFTs, art, everyone relates to it.

Yeah.

I think Squid Grow's done an incredible job in fostering that culture and creating an equitable image for anyone that wants to be a part of it. And I know you mentioned you initially created Squid Grow to create a safe place for your friends and family to invest in. And I'm sure it's a very diverse group of people. So to some degree, it was catered towards them to make them feel comfortable, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

So I think that's something that Zebu also benefits from partnering with you guys, because today Zebu is focused on this very niche market and solving this problem, right? But how do we create kind of a wider segment of participation from all types of demographics and make it more relatable? And now that we have our partnership with SilentSwap and Squid Grow, It widens the overall ecosystem that gets to experience our products and our services.

Yeah, it's really commendable what you guys are doing. I become like, I get borderline obsessed when I start to look for things that I think will help this community and will make an impact and I can put my brand behind certainly. And so I think that these are both evidently projects that are gonna stand the test of time. And I love that you make it fun, you make it enjoyable. and approachable, even though, you know, people, even my brother, you know, he's not in crypto, my family, oh, the guy in the mask. Yeah, the guy in the mask. They don't know your name, but they know you're the guy in the mask and you're cool, you know? And people, then they like want to look into crypto. And so it's a really good gateway as well into like, hey, let me look into this thing rather than what you said, Raj, like seeing the guys in the suits.

Yeah.

It's that kind of thing. So, so it's really cool. And what we did yesterday was we did get some background on the founders. And I thought it was really interesting to hear cool facts about you guys. Can you tell us anything about Maybe what you've experienced in this whole journey, Shytoshi, or something that impacted you a lot as you started this journey?

So in particular with Squid Grow, like how I kind of modeled Squid Grow was, you know, as I started pulling my friends into it, one thing that I did realize is the communication from the team of a project that my friends were investing in, there was just, you know, a disconnect. You know, if a community member had a question, you know, they weren't getting the answers. You know, there was just nobody to really talk to. Yeah, there were mods, but mods really didn't have any of that kind of information. So starting out with Squid Grow, like, I knew that what I was going to ask from my team and everybody that was on board was we have to be extremely reachable. We have to be extremely communicative. You know, we have to understand that, you know, we're going to be checking our DMs on Telegram and X, you know, throughout the day to answer these questions, you know, because people are entrusting us with monetary value. And, you know, people don't take that very lightly. So if somebody has a question or a thought or a concern or even a suggestion, we have to be accessible and reachable. So I think, you know, the journey through the journey of, you know, being in crypto, like one thing that I have not necessarily experienced myself, but kind of experienced it through my friends is when they, you know, jump in to support a project, there's just nobody to talk to.

Mm-hmm.

And You know, I think that, you know, having a team that's extremely accessible and there to answer questions and communicative and approachable, you know, is very important. So that was kind of one of the early things that I've kind of— I kind of learned early on that, you know, if you're going to do anything successfully, you have to have a means to communicate with your following. You know, so that was kind of, you know, where it kind of started as far as like Like, you know, I always say, hey, DMs are always open, we're reachable. And, you know, I think a lot of these big projects, they lack that. Yeah, they've done crazy market caps and so on and so forth, but eventually sometimes they lose momentum because there's just nobody there to talk to.

Mm-hmm.

You know, if somebody has a thought or a concern or a question, there's just nobody that's reachable. So, you know, I'm not saying that we necessarily hold hands, you know, but if somebody reaches out to us, we wanna be able to communicate with them openly and we wanna be approachable. And that's why, you know, It's important for me to go to these events and shake hands and, you know, listen to suggestions and thoughts and concerns. You know, we need that feedback. You know, everybody has a voice and, you know, we should cater to them or at least give them our time to listen to their feedback.

Wow. I mean, it's very refreshing too because, you know, a lot of meme coins pop up or new projects and they kind of, they lose steam, they lose momentum, people get burned. And it's just, we've seen that a lot in crypto. So it's really cool to see 2 parallel worlds doing different things, but Really writing the playbook essentially for others to follow as you guys improve upon things that need to be improved upon in this space, you're accessible. I think it's really cool that you've been able to build something out like that and you stick to what you say. I know you said one thing to me that I left with, which was under-promise and over-deliver. And that seems to be what both of you have been doing on both sides. And so it's been successful that way.

Yeah.

It's definitely something to follow for the rest of people in the space.

Yeah. Trust is earned, never given.

That's right. That's right.

I think a major commonality between our 2 projects is, I mean, to some degree, part of our core missions, right? So it's all about inclusivity. And in our case, we're driven through inclusivity by enabling legacy-based Web2 organizations that didn't necessarily care about blockchain technologies or digital assets until we created a commercially driven complexity abstracted layer for them, um, to actually transact using digital assets, right? So now we have these telecom carriers based out of different places in the world, like Europe, Africa, right, Middle East, um, and they are actively using crypto to transact with one another all over the world. And, uh, before Zebu, they barely even heard of Bitcoin, right? And now with you guys, um, as you mentioned, you've created this open narrative-based community where anyone can reach out to you guys, they can have questions. I'm guessing whether it's about Squid Grow or not, you're always approachable, you answer questions, you make them comfortable to be a part of Web3. So I think both projects are very inclusivity-driven. Uh, that's kind of where our partnership flourishes.

Yeah, I think that it's very important. This is very— I mean, the crypto community is not used to, as simple as it is and as basic as it may seem in Web2, having this kind of structure, right? People who want to take accountability and who want to be there for their community and who care about the momentum and creating that value and continuing to deliver.

So yeah.

Sorry, go ahead. So, so one other thing that, uh, you know, probably all of us, uh, you know, as the founders and the builders need to consciously see is how can we merge forces, um, so that we work towards something for a larger good, right? In terms of community, investors, everybody. Um, I mean, look at an example. I know from last 2 days we've been talking so much about Steve Jobs and Apple. Um, if you look at Apple and Microsoft, I mean Obviously, they were rivals, uh, you know, they didn't talk eye to eye. But there came a point where Microsoft said, okay, we are releasing Office on Apple devices.

Yeah.

You know, the entire Office 365. And, uh, you know, Apple also said, I think it makes a lot of sense to our users and our community, so we want to welcome them and bring them on board. Data says that increased sales on both the sides by over 50%.

Yeah.

And, and, and that's an example, right? It's brilliant. So you have 2 separate communities, you have 2 completely separate companies, you know, with, with almost similar and aligning missions, you come together, merge the forces, and, you know, you will see extraordinary results. And I think that is what most of us in Web3 also should look at. I mean, how can we merge forces? How can we collaborate? How can we think win-win? I think that's what the industry needs today.

Wow, that's, that's an amazing stat. That's kind of eye-opening. And it's, uh, yeah, I agree with you, it's a collaborative, not a competitive space. If you make it collaborative, you can grow, uh, you Hundreds of multiples more.

Yeah. So I talk about this very, very often, right? So crypto, digital assets, blockchain adoption, all of it is extremely small right now. He was telling me just a few hours ago that instead of investing my money into real estate or any other asset, why not just hold it in Bitcoin, right? It'll probably double in a year. Yeah, the only reason it's able to double in a year is because widespread adoption is realistically still pending, right? Even if you compare it with— even if you compare any digital asset or exchange to, let's say, a stock out there, there's barely any liquidity in the markets. Why? Because again, widespread and institutional adoption is like pending. So realistically, whether you're a payments platform, stablecoin, you know, uh, DEX aggregator, it doesn't matter. You don't really need to compete because widespread adoption is imminent. It's going to happen no matter what. Um, you're actually better off partnering with each other, uh, so that way you capture a larger market share over time together, and you can ensure that widespread adoption actually happens.

Yeah.

Um, like even if it's RWAs, for example, right? If I'm an RWA issuer, I don't want to keep those RWAs solely on my own exchange. I want to put them across multiple exchanges so that way I can drive more and more users towards the assets that I'm putting out there. So I agree. I mean, we're at a point in time where competing doesn't really do much. It's more about partnering and augmenting the overall ecosystem rather than just capturing market share within the ecosystem.

Yeah, that's a really good point. And it really is a rising tide lifts all And I always reference this, but as Yat Siu says, once you enter the community, you buy into a token, maybe you sell it and you buy into another, but just that being in there and interchanging and being in the space is just everybody wins.

Yeah.

Right. And you're a greater shareholder in an ecosystem where you can be loyal to your communities through holding those tokens. And yeah, it's a collaborative space for sure. One of my favorite parts is the strategic partnerships. I love to see those because as you said, Ragav, like you said, You said it perfectly, that multiple, once you do do that, you reach audiences you would never reach before otherwise.

Well, I'm an Excel user on Apple, so.

There you go. I got an Android, so there you go. You were going to say something as well?

No, I was just going to say, like, Zebu, they're movers and shakers. They realized that there was a demand in a certain area, and they set out. They had the courage to actually step up And set out to build the platform, fill that demand and that need, and they've done so very well. I mean, they've only been around a year, and I mean, $3 billion plus in volume. I mean, that's just ridiculous. I was telling these guys the first night that we met, they approached me, and I'm pitched all the time, so they're talking about billions of dollars in volume, and I'm like, yeah, okay.

You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Where's the catch, right?

Right.

And obviously, we did some due diligence and looked into them. And I'm like, holy shit. Not only that, they've built something super unique where there is a demand. And I've kind of done something similar on a very smaller scale. But I realized that there was a need and a demand for crypto users to be able to move crypto assets around privately. Because as I said earlier, obviously, nobody knows who owns It's a particular address, right? It's not— your name's not attached to it. But in, in my, in my situation, like, my wallets are known, right? So if I transact with, you know, a Zebu address, everybody's going to know that, hey, Shytoshi is transacting with them. What's going on? Is there a partnership? Is there something, you know, going on there? So I, I think that, you know, everybody in the space should have the right to transact privately, you know, very similar to how, like, you wouldn't want your Venmo and your Zelle transactions known, right?

Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, if I want to send them, you know, uh, money for a plane ticket to fly out and do meet, or we go do something crazy where we like go shoot machine guns or something, you know, like, you know, maybe, maybe you don't want the entire world to know that you're, you're on the move, you know, whatever it is. So I say that to say, I think that, you know, you know, doing strategic partnerships with movers and shakers, I, I think that, you know, it's, it grows exponentially. I think there's a great value add there. You know, these guys saw an area that was needed, and they seized that opportunity, and look where they're at, you know.

So I Yeah.

I mean, it's extremely useful for us and most importantly, our clients, right? So it's kind of a trading business, trading slash biz dev business, that wholesale voice and SMS, right? And everyone sort of has exclusivities with each other, and there's kind of either legal exclusivity or ethical exclusivity. Most people try to get around them, and usually they're only getting around them when it's On a moral level rather than legal. But let's say Raghav is someone that has exclusive capacity for voice and SMS for the Africas, and I have for the Americas, right? And we're trading routes, and Shib happens to be someone that I work with for the Americas, and he doesn't—he wouldn't want me to work with Raghav for the Africas because he also does the Africas, right? And I don't want him to know that I'm working with Raghav. stuff for the Africans. It's not illegal, it's just, I guess, to some degree, I guess it's unethical, right? But I mean, like any other industry, it's just, uh, business practices in order to find the best rates and trade the best routes. So, um, now if Shib knows my blockchain address on the Zebu platform, because they're all whitelisted, uh, he can always go on and see if I'm transacting with Raghav's blockchain address. And, uh— And with SilentSwap now, it gives all of our users, I guess, the edge, um, to, uh, mind my language, fuck each other over.

Yeah, that's a really good point for sure. Yeah, I mean, it's a— it seems to be a match made in heaven and something that all blockchain projects should like use as part of their protocol, you know, because we— privacy is very important. Obviously, you, you know, just hearing your story And what you had to go through and why you had to become anonymous is pretty crazy in itself. So there's a clear use case here. And I hope that, you know, the people from the outside don't perceive this, that we can start to change the narrative, right, to something that is inherently a right to people, whether it's blockchain, whether it's Web2, wherever it is. So one thing I'd like to ask all of you is just like having reached this point, like you said, it's ridiculous the amount of volume, the success that they're having, the success that you're having. Because we did kind of like a motivational little segment yesterday. And one of the things that I feel, for example, in a work ethic in me is I'm really literally willing to do whatever it takes if I want something to work out, if I think it's important enough, if it makes a big enough impact. I think that's a quality you all have here, and that's why you're here. You said you got into Bitcoin early on in 2011 because of a poker game, but there seems to be like a common denominator in people who get involved in crypto. I don't know if it's that they're inherent risk-takers, but I think there's something there that is, I don't know, interesting that makes you want to delve deeper into this world. So what would you say is some of the traits that made you want to go for this, that made you attracted to this whole movement?

Well, it's kind of two-part for me. Obviously, as I said earlier on, I was introduced to Bitcoin on the poker tables. I'm a gambler. I'm a poker player. So, you know, cryptocurrency kind of has that, you know, that rush for me. That's kind of what attracted to me. Obviously, the use case when I first was introduced to it was buy-ins on the poker table. But going a step further, you know, reading the white paper that Satoshi wrote, you know, his vision for Bitcoin, it was exactly what the people needed, even if they didn't realize it yet. And I think now, years later, you know, more and more people are starting to wake up and understand the importance of cryptocurrency. And I think with time, maybe governments will adopt it. As it was mentioned a little earlier, such a small percentage of the world is actually dabbling in cryptocurrency. I mean, there's a lot of liquidity that can still come into the market. It's hardly tapped into right now. So the market caps of projects, blockchains, Bitcoin in particular, there's a lot of growth. There's a lot of upside. I remember a time where all the naysayers said that Bitcoin would never break $100. Well, I remember when Bitcoin reached $104, and I remember it crashed back down to $36.

Wow.

Right? At that time, all the naysayers said it's never going to hit $100. Well, look at it now. We're trading at what, $54,000 right now, years later? So I mean, that just goes to show, as more and more people take notice and start giving attention and taking interest into something, like there's substantial growth that can be had. And aside from that, it's involving yourself in a community, in a movement, right? And there's the upside of financial gain. Like everybody dabbles into cryptocurrency or does a stock investment to make money, right? We just don't park our money somewhere and just want it to be a savings account. You want those Xs.

Oh yeah.

And there's a lot of growth to be had when it comes to the crypto market. So majority of the masses, I think are sleeping on, on crypto. But slowly but surely, people are taking notice, you know. I mean, Trump just said at BTC Nashville, like, if he's elected, you know, he's going to make a, um, a Bitcoin reserve.

Oh yeah, we were all there.

Yeah, it is massive. I mean, it's massive.

I think it's needed. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, it's much better than the US dollar, right, in my opinion. They're just printing more and just diluting everything. Like, the value of, of a dollar is Like, you know, I mean, it's only a dollar because we say it's a dollar, but, you know, what's it really pegged to? You know, back in the day it was pegged to gold. Well, you know, cryptocurrency like Bitcoin, for example, Bitcoin's only worth what somebody's gonna pay for it, what the market is saying it's worth. But, you know, value has increased time and time again and will continue to do so. I mean, look at Bitcoin recently, like it broke all-time high with the ETFs, right? Before the halving.

Yeah.

That's never happened before.

No, it's never happened. It was different, definitely different circumstances.

Absolutely. So I think that, Like, you know, there's such a deep well of wealth that can potentially be tapped into that, you know, as more and more people realize that, they're not going to be thinking that they're late buying Bitcoin at $50,000.

Right.

You know, 6 months, a year, 2 years down the road, they're going to be wishing they bought Bitcoin at $50,000. You know, just like very similar, my friend says, you know, my friend Huntsman is saying, fuck, I wish I bought Bitcoin at $100.

Yeah, we all wish that, but today is the best day to buy Bitcoin.

Absolutely.

Yeah. You know, like I just told a family member, you know, I bought during this dip. I go harder when it's a big correction like this. But I told a family member, I said, I'm not going to buy it at $54,000. I mean, that's insane. I'm like, who's counting? 10 years from now, where will we be? It doesn't matter.

It's not going to matter. It's not going to matter a year or 2 years down the road. When Bitcoin gets to this cycle, maybe— obviously not financial advice, but I think very conservative— $150,000 Bitcoin this cycle, you're not going to care if you bought Bitcoin at $50,000, and you're not going to care if you caught the dip months back when Bitcoin dipped down to $14,500. You know, it's not going to matter down the road because the value is just going to continue to grow. So you're going to be lucky to own a fraction of that, you know. And, uh, I still talk to people all the time in the crypto space that own no Bitcoin. Like my— not to call them out, but Sam from Evergrow, the CEO of, uh, Evergrow, and, you know, he doesn't own any Bitcoin. And we had a very in-depth conversation with Gary Cardone, who's obviously a big Bitcoin holder, and, uh, we were just like blown out. You don't own any Bitcoin? Until actually yesterday, he became a Bitcoin holder. But, you know, people are very slow to coming around to see the value there because they think they're late. Right. You know, but you're not late. There's so much room to grow. You know, there's so much more adoption to be had.

Absolutely. And with inflation, I think it was Michael Saylor who said you're essentially just treading water these years if you're in the stock market. And, you know, catching up or evening out with inflation and everything else is a loss.

And so I really hope his predictions come true. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Oh man. He's sitting pretty. You said something earlier, Raj, too, about real estate. And Michael Saylor was speaking about, you know, the average, maybe middle-class family that wants to get into an endeavor and they start, they want to start an Airbnb business. And, you know, I've had an Airbnb. It's all of the headache and all of the everything that comes with it when you could just buy Bitcoin.

Yeah.

Sit there. And, you know, I don't know. It's truly a way out. It's like a way out of the matrix, so to speak. It's freedom for so many people. And it takes a lot of the headache away from those other endeavors.

I mean, I'm an investor inherently, I guess, but I look at different asset classes in different ways. It's like there's a big differentiation between something you get as a store of value and you see appreciation in it versus a cash flow driven investment, right? So I wouldn't compare rental properties and cash flow producing real estate versus Bitcoin. I would compare, you know, gold Tell that to Michael Saylor.

I don't know, he's a super Bitcoin maxi. No, no, no, I would agree with you.

I am. No, so I would compare it to, you know, gold, land, uh, something that's going to sit there, could appreciate in value, but doesn't produce cash flow, right? Um, I separate those 2 assets. But coming back to your point from earlier is what got us into crypto. It's, for me, I mean, obviously, again, I was an investor. I did a investment banking deals. I had my own securities portfolio, etc. But, um, it was more about blockchain technology than crypto for me, right? Because there were a lot of, uh, equations in my head that I wanted to solve, and, uh, blockchain technology just happened to be the X variable that helped me sort out the equation. For example, the payments platform Zebu, right? Um, uh, right now on the side I'm a co-founder of a RWA company that's working on fractionalizing and tokenizing illiquid assets, most importantly cash flow producing illiquid assets, right? Because Bitcoin's an incredible asset for long-term holding, but there are times when you're holding Bitcoin, someone who, uh, who might, you know, pick up too much Bitcoin and might need some liquidity at some point, uh, during a bear market, what happens to those people is they might might end up selling Bitcoin at a lower point than they bought it at. It's a long-term asset. Yes, exactly. But there's a lot of assets out there such as music, real estate, oil and gas royalties, etc., that are like to some degree recession or inflation proof because they always have a demand, right? Uh, I— this is like something I say all the time, uh, think about owning a piece of Taylor Swift's music, uh, whether you're happy, sad, annoyed, angry, excited at one point or the other, it doesn't matter the emotion or your financial standing, you'll be listening to her as long as you're a fan. No, I mean, it just creates an agnostic asset, right? So it's, it's kind of a risk strategies thing.

So are you a fan?

Yeah.

Are you?

No, no, no, no, no, no.

Not Taylor Swift. At least not on camera. I can't say that. Um, but, uh, you know, I'll go back to the Beatles, for example. Uh, I, I think as a— I can proudly say I'm a Beatles fan. Uh, definitely.

I think that's safe to say.

Yeah, I'm not admitting on camera about it, but, um, you know, maybe she's watching this.

Yeah, yeah, shout out, shout out, shout out.

Let's go. What's your favorite song?

Um, no, I dropped on my guitar, right?

Oh, that's fine. Wait, are you a fan of Taylor Swift? That's the question. Yeah, I mean, I've got, you know, if the guy with the mask can say he's a fan of Taylor Swift, you know, you know, this hard exterior.

I will say anytime I hear the Romeo and Juliet song.

Okay, okay, now we know you're— I didn't even know there was a song called Romeo and Juliet, so you just outed yourself.

Um, yeah, but you know, every person just appreciates music, you know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

I played guitar at one point.

Yeah, well, there She's a crazy guitarist. So exactly, you know, gotta admire that.

That's, that's what I like about Taylor Swift, her guitar skills. Okay. Um, but look, I mean, coming back to the points, like, every person walking around should have a piece of these assets to actually solidify their overall financial standing, right? Um, 2 days ago, the stock market plunged. Uh, if you picked up a massive position in Nvidia 3 weeks ago, you know, 30, 20% of your or wealth, or maybe a little less, got wiped off. That is not something that'll happen with most of these assets. Obviously, you're not going to see the same appreciation rate, but it's safer and you still make money year over year. And that is something that's being enabled through blockchain technology. And that is what got me in in the first place. That is something I wanted to do, accessible payments all around the world, no matter the amount, the transaction size. That's something I wanted to do, right? So blockchain technology and digital assets are really the X variable, uh, in, uh, the multiple sets of equations that I've created in my head that I want to solve. And, uh, that's what got me in, and that's what excites me.

Well, you're certainly solving a problem on a mass scale, so that's exciting to see. I mean, really, it is. It's, it's really a breath of fresh air. It's like, wow, the technology is doing now what it's capable of. And, um, it's very cool, especially in such a traditional system as telecom, right? To see them adopting this kind of system is game-changing, really. So, Raghav.

Yeah.

As we're closing up this session, having had multiple very successful exits and your experience in the inception of Google in India and YouTube, what would be your advice for anybody who wants to kind of dive deep into this space? space, um, who wants to embark on a similar journey?

Sure. So, um, so I'm a guy who believes in impact, you know, like you very well touched upon. Uh, right on this couch we have 2 boys from BBC, Billionaire Boys Club. Um, I believe after a certain amount of wealth, you— I mean, nothing changes in your life. It's only more zeros in your bank account. Um, anybody who cares about real impact, anybody who wants to do good, anybody who wants to bring financial equality, anybody who wants to leave an impact, I think this is the space. That's the only reason that got me to Web3, to crypto and blockchain. I mean, like you said, I, I had a very happy, uh, you know, I— in fact, Raj kind of makes fun of me in most of the podcasts that I was a guy who got— who went and took retirement and was living a retired life. And which is, which is actually true. After my second exit, I, I had decided that I'll never work. The only reason I came to this space is because I know this can create massive, massive impact. I know there are a lot of serious blockchain projects that are helping many developing economies, like, you know, places in Africa where they're helping, you know, agriculture, they're helping farmers, uh, in, in, in various ways that, you know, traditional technology would probably take 50 years from now, right? And like Shib mentioned, um, for anybody who is aspiring to break the glass ceiling of being middle class to an upper middle class, or, you know, create some wealth for their loved ones, I think this is the place to be. Um, you know, you— all of us heard Michael Saylor say this, and I'm sure, uh, you know, anybody investing will have unparalleled returns in the years to come. So, so for me, it is more of, uh, you know, this is a space that will help and enable all of us, especially the founders and builders, to leave this world, you know, a better place and a great space. And I think anybody who really is serious about impact and wanting to, you know, make a dent in the universe, they should, you know, come to Web3, crypto, and this space.

Wow, that's, that's beautiful, man. You know, it's this sentiment and that sheer passion and will and desire that really attracted me to you guys in the first place. Like, it's somebody I want to align myself with. It's a vision that I have as well. And I feel like if you have that vision, there's nothing that can you.

Yeah.

Right? You're just unstoppable. You will keep going until you reach that point. And I think it's cool that it brought you out of retirement. I mean, like you said, we have here enough money to live life and not do anything else and not have to work again, but yet you're here showing up at all the conferences around the world, shaking hands, you said, Shib, and just like going for it. And so it's really inspiring. And it's what makes me want to keep pushing day in and day out and keep going is that impact that you said and the potential lives that can be changed.

Yeah.

So, as we wrap this up, Shib, I'd like to hear your closing remarks. Any advice for people who want to kind of follow in your footsteps? You're an inspiration to a lot of people as well.

Well, I'm happy to hear that. So, you know, I mean, the advice I'd give is, you know, don't allow people to, you know, deter you from anything that you want to set out to do, like whatever it is. Like, you know, very early on with SilentSwap, I was told it couldn't be done. It can't be done, right? They said, you can't do it, it can't be done. And if you do it, it's not gonna work properly. That for me is motivation. Let me show you.

Yeah.

And kind of in life, you have even maybe friends in your circle that kind of try to pull you down, try to keep you from achieving your greatness that you haven't yet potentially tapped into. So you got these naysayers, don't let them hold you down. If you have your goals and your ambitions, commit to it fully. Keep in mind that someone somewhere is attempting to outwork you, and you just gotta keep grinding. You set your goals, you set your sights on something, just whatever it takes, seize it, pursue it. And yeah, it might not always be easy. You might be tired all the time, but when you actually achieve that, it's gonna be well worth it.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're a testament to that, certainly. Whatever it takes. I really like that. Raj, closing remarks?

I mean, you didn't, like, ask for my advice, but I'll give it anyways.

I'm asking for it now. In fact, actually, one thing I will say is you are one of the youngest CEOs I know, but, you know, talking to you and listening to you, you would never know that. You're very wise. You obviously have really incredible leadership skills. Tell us, for, you know, all the young aspiring people out there who want to follow in your footsteps, Well, number one, maybe we should do a campaign on people guessing my age.

I was blown out. Yeah, I was shocked.

Um, but additionally, I mean, look, I mean, I, I talked a bit about this on our podcast yesterday. It's, um, I'm a research-driven person, right? So no matter how young you are, actually the younger you are, your ability to absorb data is higher, um, right? You have a lot less barriers in your brain that make you believe that some things aren't possible. It also parallelly makes you more ambitious, right? Because as you go on through life, you see more and more struggles, and you see more and more failures. And a lot of people, most people throughout their life, learn to not try new things. Why? Because they've kind of become used to failure, and they don't want to fail again. If you're young, you have time. You have the ability to absorb data, whether it turns out to be useless or not. It's just my number one suggestion would be take risks, right? But risk strategies parallelly are also important. So you have to be smart about it. You have to ensure, most importantly, that you're solving a problem all the time. And then lastly, my advice of the day is build symbiotic relationships like we have here today. Yes.

Right, right.

Absolutely. Oh, that's fantastic. Um, dig deep, go all in, you know, just go for it. Take that leap of faith, follow your passion. Don't listen to the naysayers. So many gems in this episode. I just wanna thank you guys all again for being here in Hollywood, and I look forward to seeing you somewhere around the world soon. Yeah. So thanks for, for being on.

Thanks for having us. Thank you.