Legendary investor Tim Draper on the Future of Bitcoin and Ownership in an AI world

I think every new technology has to go through this period where the Luddites try to contain things because they don't want it to change. And that we've just been through, and now we're starting to come out the other end where people are saying, well, it really is better currency. It creates more freedom. It creates more liquidity around the world, and more liquidity creates more wealth and fewer people who are homeless, and everybody's better off when there's more wealth. And when you have less friction to a currency, everybody gets richer. So it's definitely coming. And whenever you have a new technology, the world has to adapt. Part of that is that the legal structure has to adapt. The people who don't want any change have to adapt. You see, in the AI world, you know, you go to a faculty lounge and if there are 10 professors in there, there are 2 of them that are saying, wow, the admissions office is doing such a good job. These essays are so good. And 6 of them are saying, we got to get rid of this ChatGPT. And 2 of them are saying, Well, now we have this new technology. How are we going to innovate? And eventually all 10 of them accept the fact that there's going to be AI and it's going to be a part of our world and all that.

You're listening to CoinDesk's Money Reimagined with Michael Casey and Sheila Warren.

Hello and welcome to Money Reimagined. I'm Michael Casey and I'm here with my co-host Sheila Warren. It's great to have you with us. We've got a wonderful guest today, Sheila, one of the classic OGs, I would say, of the Bitcoin crypto space, Tim Draper. Looking forward to bringing Tim into the convo. And just to all of you listening, thanks for being here. Do not forget to subscribe, give us a thumbs up, give us a review. We value your feedback. Do share your thoughts with us. You can email us at podcasts@coindesk.com using the subject line Money Reimagined. And we look forward to hearing from you. So with all that aside, Sheila, before we bring Tim in, so, you know, I think what I'm really looking forward to talking to him about is what I always associated him with the very beginning. He's a true Bitcoin believer. So it's a Bitcoin-focused conversation, at least for part of this. And I think it's really appropriately timed because right at this moment, I would say Bitcoin's having a bit of a moment in a positive sense. Like, you know, obviously the ETF approval, big news there. That's opening it up as an investment vehicle. But this is very interesting development as well around the emergence of Bitcoin as a platform. We know, right, the Ordinals project, which is facilitating things like NFTs and sort of social tokens and things like that being built on top of Bitcoin. And now there's even a Bitcoin DeFi movement, which I think is fascinating. So it's suddenly Bitcoin, this conversation that many of us were very, very early on drawn to, and Tim was one of those. Is now really sort of, I don't know, dominating once again as a conversation. Of course, other tokens, other blockchains are also having a moment, Solana being one. But anyway, thoughts on all of that?

So I think like we've discussed on this show many times, the spot ETF approval did open up access in some way to the underlying asset Bitcoin to a broader class of investors, potential investors. But I actually think what's been far more interesting over the last year is watching evolution of Bitcoin and the evolution, I think, of thinking and engagement with Bitcoin. And some of this gets into a conversation we haven't really had in a while, which is kind of the distinctions between, you know, L1s and L2s and what can an L1 be for and how do we think about these platforms more broadly than just, you know, number go up, number go down, number volatile investment, you know, opportunities. And that's why I'm absolutely thrilled to have Tim here today as somebody who's been thinking about this for a very long time. And been following this journey, the evolution of Bitcoin to the present day.

Well, why don't we get Tim in? So Tim, Tim Draper, thank you for joining us. You know, of course, you know, venture capitalist, Draper Associates, founder of that, but a long history in the Valley. Your father was a venture capitalist. Your son Adam is. You did tell us that in fact there's a bit of history behind that trophy that we're looking back at behind you.

Yeah. Favorite son trophy.

Favorite son.

Yeah, very nice. Yeah.

So thanks for joining us.

You know, yeah, I'm wearing my Bitcoin tie.

You're wearing a Bitcoin tie, especially for us.

If it's always there, let's see.

There it is. There it is.

As you might know, Tim Draper, those who you may know, he is quite famous for his Bitcoin ties. And so I'm very, very glad that you honored us with wearing it today, Tim. So, so yeah, you heard that preamble and I think, you know, you've been, I think, I don't know, 2012 maybe. I'm not sure when you first got interested in this, but I do remember you very early on when I first got interested being one of the early venture capitalists interested in this space. And you've been an advocate for it all this time. So I wanna put just one question to you before we sort of delve into that broader, you know, L1, L2 aspect that Sheila was talking about. And that is the spot ETF decision. And I sort of wanna get to the heart of maybe the ethos of Bitcoin, right? I think one of the things that has been appealing to many people who, like you, had come through the disruptive, innovative internet revolution was that Bitcoin was going to be this disruptive, rebellious thing that was going to just create an entirely different new paradigm for how we move value around. And it's obviously done very well from an investment point of view, but clearly there's been challenges in terms of mainstream adoption. And now along comes SEC reluctantly and finally gives approval, and we've got names like BlackRock BlackRock and Goldman and others. And so on some level, it's validation, right? It's verification that Bitcoin is here and the TradFi community is buying into it. But some might argue that in fact, this is maybe a threat to its soul, that this is a challenge to that sort of rebellious ethos. Where do you sit on that? How do you think through this particular moment now that you've got people like Larry Fink out there singing its praises?

So I think every new technology has to go through this period where the Luddites try to contain things because they don't want it to change. And that we've just been through. And now we're starting to come out the other end where people are saying, well, it really is better currency. It creates more freedom. It is It creates more liquidity around the world, and more liquidity creates more wealth and fewer people who are homeless. And everybody's better off when there's more wealth. And when you have less friction to a currency, everybody gets richer. So it's definitely coming. And whenever you have a new technology, the world has to adapt. And part of that is that the legal structure has to adapt, and the people who don't want any change have to adapt. You see in the AI world, you know, you go to a faculty lounge, and if there are 10 professors in there, there are 2 of them that are saying, well, the admissions office is doing such a good job. These essays are so good. And 6 of them are saying, we got to get rid of this ChatGPT. And 2 of them are saying, well, now we have this new technology, how are we going to innovate? And so we've— and eventually all 10 of them accept the fact that there's going to be AI and it's going to be a part of our world and all that. Well, the same thing has happened with currency, and before that it happened with the internet, and before that it was electricity. And there's always electricity. People were freaking out. You know, it's like God doesn't want this. You know, there were so many people were having real problems with it. And the internet, same thing. Boy, there were people saying you got to tax it, you got to regulate it, you got to— and Bill Clinton, to his credit, said, no, let's just let this go and see what happens. Now, our SEC has been much more hands-on and kind of Messing with us, but I think they're starting to see the light. And and actually, I think the SEC itself probably needs some competition. Having just one SEC and and having all the countries follow it is probably not healthy for the world. And and it's created a real rift. Where we see all these entrepreneurs coming to us with new innovations and they say, and of course we have to geofence the US. And I'm thinking, well, God, as US citizens, we don't get this new technology. We're not allowed to use it. And they say, no, you're not. You can go to another country. And so I think the SEC has really overplayed their role. I don't think they were meant to do this. I think the rules that are 80 years old don't apply now, and we really ought to do something different. And I do have some ideas there, maybe an SEC for every state so each state can compete. And of course, the SEC for Wyoming would be the lead state right now in the Bitcoin world. I think we've got a really interesting time ahead of us. I know what— I can see where the future is, and I can see where we were when Bitcoin was just started. There was a lot more friction in the middle than I thought there was going to be. And that's why I sort of feel like maybe that's the reason my $250,000 prediction has been delayed. I think we're going to be in a really strong position around the world with Bitcoin being a part of our world economy. ETFs, in my mind, were just a way for people to trade Bitcoin and feel comfortable with the old way. It's a little bit like stablecoins. I think of both of them as bridges to Bitcoin, to a Bitcoin economy. A perfect Bitcoin economy is one where I can raise money and invest that money all in Bitcoin. The companies I invest in can pay their employees and suppliers all in Bitcoin. Everybody pays their taxes in Bitcoin. The entire walled garden is on the blockchain, keeps perfect records. We don't need to have all that friction around accounting, around auditing, around bookkeeping, around legal. We don't need all that friction. And that world's coming. But of course, we have to replicate and then surpass the existing banking system. And it's coming. And it's just a matter of time. We need a lot more engineering help and work. And they've got to get better at user experience, because, you know, it's very— still very difficult to use a Ledger, still very difficult even to, you know, do your AML and KYC on a Coinbase account. But once you're there, there's no friction to passing Bitcoin from one place to another. And And people who are unbanked in the world now, still about 2 or 3 billion people, can participate in the world economy through a Bitcoin economy because the banks can't afford to regulate, to stay regulated with all of these people who don't have big enough bank accounts.

Yeah.

So all that stuff needs to change. The humanity needs to evolve, but we're, once we have, we're gonna have an anthropological leap forward and the world's gonna be much better and much wealthier.

Global crypto regulation, the disruptive power of AI, the rise of tokenization. Consensus is the one event where experts in digital assets, blockchain, and related topics convene to talk about the ideas shaping our digital future. Join developers, investors, founders, brands, policymakers, and plenty more in Austin, Texas from May 29th to 31st. The 10th annual Consensus is curated by CoinDesk to feature the industry's most sought-after speakers, unparalleled networking opportunities, and unforgettable experiences. Take 15% off registration with the code MRP15. Register now at consensus.coindesk.com.

There's a lot to unpack there. So, you know, Bitcoin maxis—

By the way, optimism works.

Look, I'm all into optimism.

I don't know a single billionaire in the world who isn't a major optimist.

And you have to be.

And I know a lot of pessimists who are not billionaires.

Okay. So, so let's maybe start with People who are all in on Bitcoin, of which there are many, you know, Bitcoin maxis, as they're often called, that's one kind of frame on that stance, tend to kind of put this into—

I like the other tokens too, by the way. I like them all.

I think Bitcoin's great. Sticking with Bitcoin. Sticking with Bitcoin for this one.

Bitcoin's better.

There tend to be 2 different paths where folks see Bitcoin being really sticky. Okay. So one is you touched on very early in your comment there, which is wealth creation, the idea that Bitcoin is going to be this it going to be, or has been for some, this kind of mechanism for wealth creation to allow people who've been shut out of the economy on one hand, but also people that just do not meet certain regulatory hurdles or whatnot, you know, credit investment, whatever it is, to have an opportunity. So that's one thing. The separate thing, which I think, and I think these are distinct and we should tease them apart, they're related but distinct, is participation in the global economy. Okay? And that is a different thing because that implies that you're using Bitcoin as Your, your, it's payment, right? You're, you're using it for day-to-day transactions because maybe you don't have a bank account or whatever. Those are to some extent oppositional. If your Bitcoin's coming in, you're paying for it, you're using it to pay your electricity bill, whatever it is, you're not holding it in a way that will necessarily lead to wealth creation. So those 2 things tend to be a different kind of category of individual or community that's thinking about it now. The wealth creation, the, the data just shows wealth creation has been a mixed bag. There has been a lot of wealth creation on the part of traditional types of folks who have plenty of access to everything else in the world, the billionaire class that you mentioned, that have done a lot of engagement with Bitcoin, that are hold— that are holding it, that are what we call Bitcoin whales. To some extent, some of those people are known. There's also been significant, and this is worthy of note, amassing of wealth by folks who'd never had those opportunities as well. Both those things are true. On the other hand, there have been people who have not been able to, you know, take advantage of that opportunity because they have been using Bitcoin more as a way of engaging in day-to-day types of activities. And that to some extent precluded them from huddling or from like really sitting on this Bitcoin to kind of allow the big rise to happen. So when people talk about this as wealth creation, I often feel like I have to point that out to say, well, you know, both these things can be true and that is fine. We can say, just like, you know, other forms of currency that you can make investment choices, you can make holding choices, you can make payment use choices, all those kinds of things that's going to affect, you know, your wealth in the system. But all of that gets back to, I think, a fundamental point, which is where you started, which is something I just don't actually agree with. And we can go into this or not as you see fit. Michael, I know you have thoughts on this as well, which is the kind of, you know, rising tide lifts all boats phenomenon, which I think has been disproven. of the United States where we have ever-expanding wealth divide, ever-expanding, the middle class has largely been eroded in this country. There's no question about that. And so, I'm curious how you reconcile those things. Bitcoin is this kind of like once in a generation, maybe once in multiple generations opportunity for wealth creation with the fact that here in the United States, we are seeing ever-expanding, massively expanding divide in the rich getting much, much, much, much richer. Maybe because they're all optimists. I don't know. The rest of us are not. I don't know. Maybe that's the reason. And then ever-increasing people below the poverty line to the extent that even when you, you know, try to accommodate that in defining the poverty line, you still are just left with just so many people who just can't seem to make ends meet on a day-to-day basis. So curious to get your thoughts on all of that.

Okay. So, yeah, you hit a bunch of things. One is wealth creation, and you're thinking that people are getting wealthy by buying Bitcoin and holding it. I'm saying it's global wealth creation. We get global wealth creation because we have better liquidity around the world. The more liquidity you have, the wealthier the society gets. If we're all going back to gold or shells or whatever people used to trade before, the world gets poorer. The world also gets poorer when we have socialistic tendencies. where we focus on poverty. What happens when you focus on poverty is you, in effect, create more poverty. You will create more wealth and you will allow people who are not wealthy enough even to have a bank account to be a part of the world economy. And they will then become wealthier because they can be a part of the world economy and they can trade. We know socialism doesn't work. It never has. Never, ever, ever in the history of the world. North Korea is not— they're starving in North Korea and they're rich in South Korea. They're starving in Cuba and they're rich in the US. They're starving in Russia. They're rich in, I don't know, Switzerland. There are so many examples. They're rich in Singapore. They— China was booming and everybody was doing very well, and now they've got a socialist country and they're starting to starve again. So you create poverty by creating artificial barriers to the supply and demand curve. Whenever that happens, you create poverty, and that is the way it works. The divide has happened because there's been more socialism and more attention to troubled parts of society rather than attention to encouraging trade and the best and the brightest and grow the economy and build the world. I don't know. Argentina went from one of the wealthiest places on the planet where everybody was great, everybody was wealthy, to now one of the poorest places on the planet. And all that happened was they switched from capitalism to socialism. And now they're trying to switch back.

I don't think that's all that happened. There's a lot more to that story, Michael. I know you not much. But but we're going to leave it at that.

You get poverty. You focus on wealth. You get wealth.

Yeah. Look, I don't really want to have a. I suppose let's let's just bring bring this back to Bitcoin. I mean, I think that there is a we could go down that rabbit hole for quite some time. I think this is the debate over over. over ideology is one that just can go on and on and on and on. Look, I think neither Sheila and I would ever call ourselves socialists, but the question about where balance is, is kind of interesting. I think probably what would be interesting to get you, maybe if we— I want to move into a broader conversation about the future of Bitcoin, but before I do, we can dwell a little bit on this because how does Bitcoin— do you see Bitcoin as therefore being a force for the free market? Like, I mean, is it— do you think like, you know, is El Salvador, now that it has Bitcoin as legal tender, going to become naturally more free marketplace? And the reason why I'm asking is because you could argue that deferring control over your currency to an outside force—

The fact that people are unbanked today is because there was an artificial socialistic tendency to regulate the banks. And by regulating, overregulating the banks, it became too expensive for those people to be banked. So yes, Bitcoin is an opportunity for those people who have been unbanked and who have been poor and left in the dust because we've regulated the banks so heavily.

I agree with that.

They've been left in the dust, and Bitcoin is a, is an opportunity for them to get out of their, out of their poverty. And that, and boy, the people I talked to that have, you know, that somehow got into Bitcoin, just sort of lucked in and somehow found Bitcoin and they were unbanked before, they are delighted that there is another system other than our regulated bank government, you know, oligopoly. They are thrilled that they can participate in the world. And so I think that's coming. I think we're a new horseless carriage in Bitcoin.

Okay.

And I think it's a new way for us to build our economy, to grow, to allow people throughout the world to be a part of the world economy, whether they are rich enough to be banked or not. And it's going to be amazingly great for the world economy because we are going to be able to transact globally, much with much less friction, no friction across borders, no friction because, you know, of all the banking regulations, all the forms you have to fill out. Bitcoin does create that freedom and it does create that potential source of economic wealth.

Does it do so purely as a means of exchange? I mean, is it really just a payments vehicle? I mean, there's a debate within the Bitcoin community Right? With the emergence of Ordinals and these other new applications being built on top, you know, this layer 2 treating Bitcoin as a layer 1 that has actually caused some division within the Bitcoin community that, you know, this is not what this is for. This is supposed to be a one-trick pony. This is really just about payments. This is really just about digital gold. Either way, it's a money form of money and not this. Do you see Bitcoin expansively as those who are now building on top of it do, or do you really think—

Yes, of course. You know, there's no way 7 transactions a second is going to be fast enough to maintain all the transactions that need to be done. So you need a layer 2. You need a Lightning, right? But Lightning was Lightning or a Stacks or a payment.

What is it?

RGB? There, there are several of these that are layer 2 that can allow for millions of transactions a second. And yes, eventually When I can buy my food, my clothing, and my shelter in Bitcoin, I'm not quite sure why I would ever want to hold on to a dollar, because a dollar is subject to somebody like Trump who would take and just print $10 trillion of them. And all of a sudden, my dollar's worth $0.75. But Bitcoin, you know, there are only 21 million. That's all there will ever be. So I would rather hold my money in Bitcoin and transact in Bitcoin than, than try to, you know, prop up a dying currency.

Like just moving away from Bitcoin isn't like completely away and just looking at Bitcoin as a technology, right? Because I think part of what is so exciting about Bitcoin in addition to the alternatives to money that, you know, we've now spent some time on is this, the evolution of Bitcoin has been one, because some of what we've talked about, we could have talked about in 2018, right? The, question around the dollar, all of this stuff was, was sort of even back then. What is new now is thinking about Bitcoin, the core technology and what that actually enables. And so to me, you know, I think Ordinals is a great example of this as one of the kind of undersung opportunities in Bitcoin that isn't about money. It hasn't, it really doesn't have anything to do with money. It is something that sits on top of the Bitcoin blockchain. It's a, it's an add-on, if you will. It's something new. And so How are you thinking about that evolution away from just thinking about Bitcoin as an alternative currency to money, whether it's store of value, all those things, right? Or even as an alternative political system, political economy system, leaving all that aside, how are you thinking about the evolution around the technology itself?

Well, it is fantastic technology. It keeps perfect records. And as I mentioned, that means that, um, we aren't going to require accounting and auditing and bookkeeping and all that. In addition, Ordinals are allowing for all sorts of new innovations. And they're not just the— they're not the only thing. I think there are going to be many more innovations that are popping up around Bitcoin and using the blockchain in new ways and storing memory in different ways. And keeping identity in different ways. All those technologies are coming and I'm very excited about it. The reason I think Bitcoin over all the other currencies is it's not that they're— I think they're all great, but I was around during the time the internet showed up and before the internet showed up, there was software. And Microsoft said, we're just going to be a platform and you guys go innovate whatever you innovate. And, and it was clip art and little cartoons and little games and whatever else. But then Lotus 1-2-3 started to become worth something and WordPerfect started to become worth something and PowerPoint started to become worth something. And Microsoft said, you know, maybe those should be a part of the operating system. So they created Excel and Word, bought PowerPoint, and suddenly those 3 flourished and they were like a major part of what we use software for. Boom, Microsoft. Okay, Bitcoin, same thing. The Bitcoin community kind of let Ethereum and some of the others have the playground. So all the little silly things that people came up with, they all built. And then they found out, gee, these NFTs are really important. DeFi's really important. And those are all now being built on the Bitcoin blockchain. So the Bitcoin blockchain's like Microsoft. And now once they're put on the Bitcoin blockchain, serious people can say, okay, now I'm going to use it. And so now the serious people are saying, okay, I'm going to go ahead and use it for DeFi. I'm going to use it for the spot ETFs. I'm going to start using it for whatever. And then eventually people are going to say, wow, I can use it I can save— I'm a retailer, I can save 2% to my bottom line, I'm going to use it at retail. And so yeah, I don't think we've invented all the things we're going to invent on the blockchain. I think there are going to be many, many more. And as they get invented on one platform or another, they will be moved over to Bitcoin for the rest of us. So I think it's going to follow the same path. that it followed with software, followed with Microsoft. And, and of course, there have been very successful software companies that weren't a part of Microsoft, and those became very big and very successful.

But most of them were built on the Microsoft operating system to start with, at least until Apple.

Yeah. So I think there's an opportunity right now for user experience. So I'm kind of keeping my eyes open for those entrepreneurs who are—

That was one of the reasons why Ethereum—

Jobs.

Right. Well, Ethereum, it, you know, it still had lots of UX challenges and, you know, just porting over this token from your MetaMask, whatever. But at least you could have transactional throughput and there was like the sort of Turing-complete aspect of smart contracts and so forth, right? All of that meant that this very clunky thing, because people were building, remember colored coins and you had, you know, a variety of, of these, you know, early layer 2 concepts built on top of Bitcoin when I first started writing about this in 2014. But it was just very clunky and difficult to do. Now they're finding a smarter way to do it. But I think the interesting analogy you draw is this sense of there being this one legitimizing platform, right? In the sense that Microsoft's operating system was that. And then I think the reason why I think this is interesting, and you can actually tie it back to the ETF, is the only reason why the SEC was able to do this is because it recognized that Bitcoin is truly decentralized. Like, there's just no debate about Bitcoin being a security, whereas every other one, regardless of where, you know, you or I or Sheila sit on this, there is some degree of debate, right? Is, you know, you could, you could argue Ether still is a security. And, and, and, and, and yet Bitcoin, case solved, done. It is a, it is a commodity. It's not a security. And, and that's a, that speaks to its, its trustworthiness as a truly decentralized network. So if you think about that from that perspective and just saying, okay, what do we want to build on top of? Well, you do want a protocol that can be trusted to be truly decentralized, to be that base layer. So I think it's an interesting analogy to think of Microsoft and having achieved that. And sure, it means that somewhere along the line, some other alternative may come along. But the idea that Bitcoin is the one is interesting. I just find that the debates within the Bitcoin community itself, it doesn't necessarily help. You've got a lot of resistance. And, you know, you still need upgrades to the protocol to be able to bring—

I think people think of Bitcoin as either an investment or they think of it as a transformational economy. And I think the ones who think of it still as an investment are just kind of thinking, no, let's just hold it the way it is. If you're thinking of it as a transformational economy, then you know it's going to go through all sorts of fits and starts, and you know that it's got to go through all sorts of turmoil from politics to economics. You always have to go through a difficult period to get to a period where it's user-friendly, the user experience is easy, and It's safe and we're getting there and it's just not there yet.

So Tim, here's a question back to ETFs though, right? Because to your point about how there's some folks who see it as an investment and some as a transformational economy, a lot of times, including, you know, publicly, a lot of the folks that see it as a transformational economy have been kind of negative on the ETF, right? This idea that now there's access to non-purists, let's call it, right? Folks who aren't willing to, their language, not mine, put the skin in the game and, you know, get in there and all that. How do you feel about that?

Oh, I sort of felt like ETFs were sort of a blip on the radar. Yeah, I didn't feel like it was going to make much of an impact at all, except that it did allow people to participate who were afraid to or nervous about putting a Ledger on their device or maybe just too stuck in their ways to open a Coinbase account. And it does allow them to participate. But I think most of them, I can say, are older like me. And so they're kind of happy with the way the world is. They don't want it to change. But if they have to be a part of it, sure, I can use an ETF because now I can do that through my Morgan Stanley account. I think it's, as time goes on, it gets to be a bigger and bigger and bigger chance.

Yeah.

That there's a run on the dollar. I'm sure there will be. First, there'll be runs on the Nigerian naira, and then there'll be runs on the— but I— my dad gave me this million dollars of Confederate money, and I said, whoa, a million dollars! What can I do with this? He goes, nothing. And I said, what do you mean? Well, it's worth nothing. And I thought, Oh my gosh. After the war, nobody wanted Confederate dollars. The only thing anybody would take were Union dollars. And I think there will be a time when people are— when the retailer who's already taking Bitcoin is going to say, no, no, we just take Bitcoin here. And then there's a run on the bank and everybody says, I got to get my dollars out of here. And that non-zero chance is where Old people like me are buying ETFs, so at least they have some hedge against that happening.

And by the way, I have the $500,000, which is actually a tiny denomination from the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe.

From I have that too. I have that same one.

There's the three billion ones. I didn't.

I can't afford like tic-tac-toe point.

Yeah, I got a punsy little.

No, no, you're you're totally shortchanged because I have one. Right here. There's the picture of it. I don't know if you can see it.

I see it, but yeah.

It is. It it says a hundred trillion.

Oh God! Because I you know you got the big one. I'm just sitting here like a little guy with my tiny.

Yeah, I know.

But you're not optimistic enough, Michael. Be more optimistic.

Here's the here's the real news: neither of them can be spent.

That's right.

They're basically worth the same.

Yes.

But you can you can be sure that people from Zimbabwe.

That's true.

Yes. Yours could have got 3 eggs. Mine couldn't have even bought 1, right? That's the thing. To me, this is the thing that I do. I worry about a run on the dollar. I've been worrying about it though for a long time, and I've been talking about this for some time. I do think that there is a point in which the world has to default to some form of depoliticized money. If we're going to end up in a—

Paper.

Well, it has to.

Yeah. Well, ideally, there are multiple currencies that we accept so that they can compete with each other so that they're accountable to the people.

Yes. And gold still plays that role. But the idea that it was a digital form of some form, it doesn't mean the whole world is on Bitcoin per se, but like that this is recognized as something that stands as the sort of the base foundation for it all. Particularly as we move into a digital world. Look, we're short on time, but just why don't I just quickly throw that at you? Because it's, you know, crypto and Bitcoin are not the only things in your portfolio. And, you know, you are just wondering, do you have a big investment thesis for as we go into this age of AI and like we think about what the future of value and ownership looks like? What are you betting on? What do you think the big changes are gonna be?

So I think AI is going to take all of our jobs, but that in that way, I actually think that AI is going to create all new jobs. We don't have to write over and over and over, you know, and copy the Bible over and over and over to get the story straight. I think AI is like that. I think we are going to really benefit from it. And I already have benefited from it in huge ways. Oh my God, I am so, so much better educated than I was before AI. Assume that it takes all of our jobs. Actually, there's an AI Tim Draper that's coming out. It's quite, quite extraordinary. It's really fun. But assume it's going to take all of our jobs. Then what? And, and so if it takes your job, what are you going to do? And everybody is very innovative and they'll come up with new things to do and they'll come up with other jobs and our jobs will be that much better. If you're a, you know, if you're a tire changer and somebody comes up with a tire that doesn't pop, you have to think of something else to do and you will. And I think that's going to be true of every Every worker in the world, they'll all evolve.

Very optimistic take on people.

And I think I'm gonna have to evolve too because I think AI is gonna probably do a better job of evaluating entrepreneurs than I do eventually.

What do you invest in if this is this world that's coming? What are you gonna own? You're gonna just OpenAI, Microsoft, Facebook, Google, the same big 5 companies? What's our—

No, no, I think most true innovation comes from outside those big companies. The big company, it's a little like, you know, when a company gets that big, it becomes centralized authority, which then limits the creativity of the company to that one person at the top. So I think there is some real value to decentralization. That's why I really love the whole decentralized world and what's happening with the with Bitcoin and the blockchain out there. And so no, that innovation will come from startups and hopefully there'll be startups that I fund.

Sheila, finally—

On that note, yeah, I think we gotta wrap.

Well, on that, Tim Draper, thank you so much for bringing your multi— many years of watching this space and of investing in this and other aspects to your commentary and It was fun having you on. Great to see you. Thank you for wearing the Bitcoin tie. That's just—

Oh yeah. Did I show it during our—

There it is.

You did.

Thrilled to have that here. To my co-host, Shelagh Moran, thank you very much. And I just realized, you know what I never do, Shelagh? I never, and this is just like a sin, I never thank our editor, our producer, Michelle Musso, who does so much work. To put together Money Reimagined every week. And so, you know, it's a routine. I should be thanking her for this. So, Michelle, thank you for all of your work. And that's something that needs to happen on a regular basis. So that's it.

Great. Thank you. Thanks, Michael. Thank you, Sheila. And thank you, Michelle.

Thank you, Tim.

And thanks to all of you listeners for joining us. Do come back again next week for another edition of Money Reimagined. You can find us on the CoinDesk Podcast Network, or of course, wherever it is, Apple, Spotify, wherever you find your preferred podcast platform. And do send in your comments if you can to podcasts@coindesk.com. We'd love to hear from you. That's all for now. See you again soon.

Bye.