Tim Draper’s Boldest Bitcoin Prediction Yet

I'm your host, Jason Raznick, founder of Benzinga, a leading platform in the financial world with the mission to level the playing field for individual investors. And this is the Raz Report podcast, where we share inspiring stories, expert advice, and exclusive perspectives to keep you ahead of the ever-changing world of investments and entrepreneurship. Let's dive into the show. All right. Welcome to this week's edition of the Raz Report. I'm super excited to have a return guest. And legendary investor Tim Draper. This guy has done it all. Early bets on Hotmail, Tesla, SpaceX, Bitcoin, many, many more. I can name probably 50 other companies. He's been a major force for tech investing, longtime advocate for decentralization, free market, and innovation. He's back to talk about Bitcoin's future, his latest investments in AI, crypto startups, And he's still betting big on disruption. There is a ton to learn from Tim. I'm going to get into the startup world. We're going to talk about Elon Musk. This guy's had a first-eye view of what Elon's done over the years. So Tim, welcome back to The Raz Report.

Terrific. Thanks for having me, Jason.

Yes, thank you.

People don't always invite me back.

Well, you know, after our talk. But yeah, no, there's some questions that I dying to ask. So I'm super glad that you're back. So my friend Randy Kaplan had you on his podcast, In Search of Excellence. One thing that I took from it was your dad is a super optimist, always had a can-do attitude. And that's my dad, always like half glass full, just even when things are bleak, he's just positive. And so it resonated with me. But I think one thing you said about your dad, was he would go after it until he got there or he failed, either way. But he would go after it until he got there. And that was a great model for you. So my question to you is, are you like your dad in the sense that when you have an idea, you'll go after it until it either works or it fails? Or are you now at a place where you can't just go after one idea? Because one thing you made it is like he had a really nice stick-to-itiveness where he's stuck on something.

Yeah.

And I feel like you're in a lot of things. So, what model do you follow?

Yeah, he is a great optimist. And you remind me that I should reread his book, The Startup Game, because it does give you that spirit of optimism. Yeah, I wrote a book that's sort of like a— it's How to Be a Startup Hero, but it's more of a textbook for entrepreneurs. It prepares people to become entrepreneurs. But his is very optimistic and it is wonderful. And he did give me that optimism. And I think I have carried it with me. And it's interesting. I think I do pursue things until they're logical. Success or ending. And I don't drop them, maybe to a fault, but I have done some in parallel. And I guess that maybe it's because I can. I have because I started— once I spun out of DFJ, I started Draper Associates, so venture capital. But I started all these things that helped my venture business, the school for entrepreneurs, Draper University. It's a little like reverse or what do you call that, backward integrating. the venture business. So, going back and making sure that I control the entire supply chain. So, Draper University and starting this show, Meet the Drapers, building out the Draper Startup Houses around the world, all those things I've pursued, but I pursued with really good people who have driven those. For me, the venture business, I still drive myself, but the others, I have better people working with me who, like Sarah Kapatra is the showrunner for Meet the Drapers and Asra Needham is the president of Draper University. And each one has its own— Vikram Bajaj, he— Vikram runs the Draper Startup Houses. And they do such a good job and they run those independently, but they all help my venture business. So, I guess I am continuing to pursue that one thing. Which is venture capital, but I'm doing it by integrating the entire supply chain. And I'm doing other things. I have like 5 digital twins today and each of them somehow helps me in one way or another build the venture business. So, I guess it's all about venture capital. But it does take me in other, some other directions. And the school does take some time. The show does take some time, but no different from the time I would take to, you know, go look at the startups that were created by Boost or Y Combinator or Techstars or whatever. We just have our own.

Yeah. And I bet when you started the new initiatives, there was more focus there. And that's what, just to your dad's saying about, like, or what you said about, he would go for it and focus. You probably focused pretty hard on getting Draper University set up. And once you did, then less and less time, you know, you had to spend on it. You had your others that focused on it. At Draper University, just because you mentioned it, Is that— is one of the things there cold calling where you, you want to teach these potential entrepreneurs, hey, cold calling is sometimes the bane of a business? Do you guys do that kind of stuff at Draper University?

We have 2 exercises that we do for cold calling. One is we say you got 24 hours to go into San Francisco and get a job offer on paper from somebody that you've never met before. So that's one. And then the other one we do is we have them go up to Union Square and sell something very embarrassing, whatever it is. So, and we figure if you can sell that embarrassing thing, then your own business will be easy. And so yes, there is a bunch of cold calling and And we do know that that's a big part of business. You've got to be willing to just keep, keep dialing, keep going.

And so have you ever had any student that was embarrassed to do the cold calling?

I think they've all been embarrassed. That's a part of the training.

Forget embarrassed. Embarrassed and weren't willing to do it.

Oh. No, because then they don't— they let down their team. Great thing about Draper University is that we've created team-based learning, and you don't want to let your team down. And I think if I pass anything on to other educational systems, it would be team learning makes people learn faster and better. They work harder, they see more, they have different perspectives. In fact, I just learned that Stanford Business School has copied our model. They've got an 8-week entrepreneur program where they do some team learning, they do some very unusual challenges. And I felt like, hey, finally. Finally, they're starting to come around. It's a better way to teach.

100%. So, that's how many people have gone to Draper University?

We've now had 6,000 students in hero training. We've had 25,000 if you include all the corporate training, but 6,000 in hero training. They've started 1,500 companies. They've come from 104 different countries. They have, I think we have 6 unicorns that were started in Draper University. We're only 13 years old. And we have about 25 that have reached over $100 million market cap.

Wow.

And now, what we say is, It's harder to get into than Harvard or Stanford, but it's what we say is our— where Harvard or Stanford take your student for 4 years and maybe 6, and 85% of them get jobs when they get out. We say we take you for 5 weeks. And maybe 15 if you go through the GO program. And our average student creates 7 jobs.

Wow. I mean, those numbers are insane. So why are— is the demand, people applying to be in Draper University, is it super high or do you think it could be even larger and it should be almost a Global thing?

Both are true. I think the demand is crazy high. You know, we're seeing, you know, I mean, for— we've had a deal with the Senegalese government where they give 3 scholarships and it's like 30,000 people apply for them. We have from Brazil, I think we get something like maybe 5 or 10 students per session, and that comes from about 10,000 applications. And we're not as big a deal in the US because we, by design, decided not to be accredited. We think the accreditation system is destroying education. It's putting it into boxes, and we want to keep innovating, and we don't want to wait until some accreditors thinks that it's okay for us to teach Bitcoin or teach AI or teach computational biochemistry or robotics or whatever. We don't want to wait around for some bureaucrat to say I'm okay. And so, we have Built it really to build out extraordinary entrepreneurs. And they have to be at the edge. They have to be on the edge. And so, we don't get the Pell Grants. We don't get all those benefits, the educational loans, the whatever from Americans. So, we get about—

Yeah.

You know, we're in America and we only get about 10% of our students from America.

I'm going to follow up on this one thing with the university, Draper University. I mean, it's like, this is a godsend to the world, I believe. What would you say to someone who is afraid to make cold calls? Because I feel like you've offered good advice on this in the past.

You know, it's the advice that my grandfather gave my dad and that my dad gave me and I gave my children, that it doesn't matter who's buying and who's selling. It's the personal connection that matters. Because what you learn when you do cold call is you learn more than just whether somebody wants the product or not. You learn about their kids, you learn about their life, you learn about what they do for a living. You, you You put a little piece of that little patchwork quilt that is the world economy together in your head. So much comes from cold calling. I remember just raising money for a nonprofit and when I called, the conversation went into a whole bunch of different—

Topics.

different directions, and some of it turned out to be good for business. So, I think it's just a good habit to get into to cold call some people and reconnect or connect for the first time. It's a way of connecting with people.

And if they hang up on you or say they don't want to hear from you, you're no worse off.

No, you can't take it hard. You just need to realize that that's all a part of the process.

Yeah. When I started Benzinga, it was financial media company at first. I didn't know what I was doing. And sometimes you have to fake it till you make it and be different people at first, like to sound bigger. Like you can't have the same person calling to say— so like it was all that faking till you make it, but I had no choice. And that's where I think, you know, mentioned immigrants are, you know, 90% of Draper University. It's the mentality of like, you have no choice, you just do it. There's no embarrassment. My grandfather, he used to drive to Chicago, 4 hours from Detroit, in the middle of the night to be the first salesperson there to the grocery chains that have the pickles. It was like a division of the— he sold us company to Ballastic, but he would be there and it was not cold calling, it was knocking on the door. But nowadays, I just feel like we're all so— or not all, because you're not, but a lot of people are just so afraid to pick up a phone and afraid of rejection. Just like I was afraid of rejection in a bar when I was in college, right? And I shouldn't have been. In hindsight, should have been like— you know what I mean? I was afraid to go up to someone, which was the wrong logic. I needed to go to Draper University instead of Michigan back then. Okay. So, I want to transition. There's a few things that I'm going to hit hard.

Now, also, if you do get rejected, you get better. I know a lot of the entrepreneurs that I back, I was their 25th pitch. I wasn't their first. On the first pitch, it's usually a little bit shaky and they're going too deep into some areas and not deep enough into others. And the pitch needs practice. And not only the pitch, when you do a pitch, the business improves because they ask you certain questions and you think, God, I don't think I answered that very well. I better go back and look. Or, boy, you know, that business model idea that guy had, I hadn't really thought about that. Maybe I ought to do something about that. And then they get better and better and better, and they think they're giving the same pitch 25 times in a row. They are not. Every single one is new.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, like you have Draper University, you have other investments you're in, but you, a while ago you had like an incubator where you take ideas and you would, I don't know if you would start them and people would take on the different ideas. But my question to you is when you have ideas for new businesses right now, Do you just shove them to the side or do you find other great people to go take them on? Or how do you handle that right now? Because I feel like you're not only are you an execution guy, but you're an idea guy.

Well, it's funny. I was just thinking, how am I going to execute on this? I feel like there's an opportunity for a new kind of company that is, I mean, not an insurance company, but in some ways is a mutual or a pool or a club that helps people out. I was thinking of the fires in LA when people are displaced. They don't— sure, they got to fight with the insurance company for a long time, and finally maybe they can build their house back. But what they really need is day one, they need—

Money.

Whatever, they need $50,000, $100,000 to just make sure that they can rent another place or move into a hotel and get their family and back into school and get their, you know, life back in order, um, so that they're not really missing a beat. And so I felt like there was an opportunity there, and, uh, but you don't want to have to go through the insurance regulation process. I think there's a better way to do it. So yeah, I'm looking for somebody to help with that. So right.

They have a—

I have a, you know, I do get a bunch of ideas. And it is interesting that if you throw the idea out there, other people come back and they say, hey, I had an idea like that, or I'd like to do that, or I'd like to— and it's a way ideas grow with with the spreading of them and they die if you bury them.

Yeah.

And so, you really have to tell the world and then the world kind of comes back to you and goes, oh, you know that non-insurance thing you had in mind that I've got a DAO or I've got something that could change all that. And then the idea starts to blossom. gets bigger and bigger and bigger, and that's how the big ones get created.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I know that I don't have the time or the capability to build a big business. I've already got a venture business and a school and a show. I don't want to take on another one of these things, but I do want— there are certain things that the world needs that need to get out there and proliferate. And so, I'll just say, hey, it's time to whatever, take on whatever.

Yeah. Some people think, oh, I shouldn't share my idea, but totally agree. When I didn't share my idea, I never got the stuff going. I had a thing before even TiVo existed, got to work on a preliminary patent and I didn't share and I was just all quiet. And then, another one, what you see on TV, you can buy. But then, when I shared Stuff like I, when I was on someone else's podcast, my best developer reached out to me from that podcast. And just like your insurance thing, not being insurance, but how do you get $50,000, $100,000 of these people immediately? And how do you do it? And then how do you figure out how to get paid back on that? Does the insurance company fund it? I mean, it would be utility to the insurance company because it would be help, you know, the immediate. But I mean, that's the It's a great question and I'm sure there's someone right now that has the same concept, but not exactly the same, but could have the time to execute it. So, hopefully, they'll hear this from the Raz Report and you'll find that person.

Yeah. Terrific.

Very good.

Good. Yeah. It is fun. And if you have one idea and you give it out, you seem to get 2 more. It just happens. So, just get into the— The habit of telling people your ideas. It will help you with everything.

We're going to go to Bitcoin next, but one more thing on this line of questioning. You've been very successful, made a lot of money. You don't do this for the money. You could right now just go fly to Hawaii and chill out and lay on an island. What keeps you excited about this, putting on that famous tie you put on every day and going to work. Like, there's no one telling you to have to do it because you don't have to do it. You can go spend time with your 4 kids and help them with their VC funds, or 3 of them. And like, what keeps you just wanting to get up, take these phone calls, deal with this shit? I'm sure there's always things at Draper University you have to deal with and you're like, I don't want to deal with that today. What makes you keep wanting to have headaches but also the excitement of building?

Well, you know, I'm a, I'm a real believer, um, that I think I just want to be useful. Um, I think that the people that are my age that, um, have stopped or dropped off or whatever, uh, they don't feel useful, and that's where they become, you drug addicts or drunks or just depressed or whatever. I find that by continuing to drive new things, I've got a positive feedback loop. And I get to see the success. Now, it takes 15 or 20 years, but I get to see the success. That my early risk had an impact on. So, that's a big deal. I also think that there is a lot to capitalism. I don't think people see— they think, oh, you got rich, so you're fine. You can just go. you know, live your life, buy things. But there's something to the impact of capitalism. It is, if I've done something to earn money or to make money, that something has also had an impact on the consumer.

Right.

So the consumer benefits too. So if I've done something really Extraordinary. Like, if I funded Tesla, the consumer of the Tesla is better off. If I funded Skype, the— I mean, we're using Riverside here. We would not have had the ability to see each other before Skype or talk to each other for free before Skype.

Right.

If I hadn't funded Hotmail, we would not have been able to send free emails around the world. Those have been huge impacts of the world. And the beneficiary is not just the one who made money. I made money on all of those. The beneficiary, the big beneficiary is that consumer.

Everyone.

Everyone who's ever sent an email, anybody who's ever been on a Zoom call, anybody who bought a Tesla. And now, I think that there's a similar thing happening in Bitcoin. I think we, you know, by helping drive Bitcoin, I wasn't involved in the beginning of it or the excitement of it at the very beginning. I was excited in the excitement of it. But I, But I feel like, yeah, that's actually making it so an extra 2 billion people can be a part of the world economy who were not a part of the world economy before. I think that's lacking in the discourse of what capitalism is. I think Jeff Bezos is super rich.

Yeah.

Great, but why, what's he done? Well, Amazon has made it so I can order a toothbrush and 4 hours later the thing shows up at my door. Amazon has made all of our lives so much better. I'm a huge— I've never been a shareholder, never had anything to do with Amazon, but I benefit hugely from what Jeff Bezos has done. And I think that's a part of the world economy that has not been spoken much about. And a part of capitalism that's really a valuable piece is that those geniuses who create this incredible world for us are benefiting all of us. They benefit themselves a lot, but they also benefit all of us.

Yeah.

And so, we're better off because of it. So, anyway, if I can in some way help be a helper in that world economy to help put the fabric together that makes us all better at interacting through capitalism, I will keep doing it.

Yeah. So big ideas that can change the way people live, which you have invested in through Skype, Hotmail, Tesla, and many, many others. Okay. Now we're moving on to the Bitcoin section. Now I know everyone wants to hear your take on it. You're the guy, I think, that bought like 30,000 Bitcoins in that auction, like at $600 apiece. I mean, I know you don't talk about how much you hold out of that, Do you still own a lot of Bitcoin?

Oh, absolutely. Well, and I'm waiting for a time when I can invest the Bitcoin for Bitcoin. So, in other words, maybe I raise a big fund in Bitcoin, invest it in Bitcoin, have all the startups pay their employees and suppliers in Bitcoin and taxes and everything. And it keeps perfect records on the blockchain. And it can keep perfect records on a smart contract. So, everybody gets what they're supposed to get.

Right.

The whole waterfall works perfectly. So, I am hoping that Bitcoin invested becomes more Bitcoin. And I'm thinking that fiat is sort of the game of the past. And Bitcoin is the game of the future. And I think people are starting to see that. It's just better. It's a little like, hey, I used to drive a car with a combustion engine and now I drive a car that's all electric. People used to ride horseback and then they were able to drive cars with combustion engines. People used to trade with shells, then they traded with gold, then they traded with the promise of gold, and then it was like the promise of the government, and now it's Bitcoin. And I think each one has had an anthropological leap forward where everybody got richer, our world economy got more enmeshed. We all ended up benefiting from all of the Creativity of the people all over the world. And so that was— that's a real positive. And so I think we're going to see— I mean, it's great that we're seeing stablecoins as a stepping stone to Bitcoin. I think it's great. I mean, because they're all digital and they can move faster and all that. And eventually, we'll get to Bitcoin, which is global and transparent and keeps perfect records and secure and stable and all that stuff. Over time, we're going to get there. So, that'll probably be the dominant currency of the world in, I guess, 5 years, 10 years, something like that.

Wow.

There will be a time that I'm a little worried about, actually, where we have a run on the fiat currencies, and they're going to run on the banks for the fiat currencies to get moved into Bitcoin. And ideally, that's all going to be electronically done. And so, we won't have people at the banks clawing at the banks and breaking windows and whatever to try to get Bitcoin out of their dollars. But there will be a moment when I can buy my food, my clothing, my shelter, pay my taxes all in Bitcoin, and I won't have a need for fiat currency. There will be no reason to hold it because—

Right.

Bitcoin appreciates in value over time and fiat depreciates in value over time because by its nature, uh, governments, uh, produce more. And so there are, um, there are more dollars out there than there were before. And, uh, so your dollars that you have are worth less, and that's what inflation's all about.

Yeah, yeah.

So we're going to have a currency that is Really, you know, very, very stable. You know, I had a, I had a, my dad once gave me a million-dollar bill and I went, a million dollars, whoa, what can I spend it on? And he says, nothing. And I said, what do you mean nothing? He said, well, that's a million Confederate dollars. And the Confederates lost the war. And everybody just wanted Union dollars. They lost the Civil War and people just said, we're not accepting Confederate dollars anymore. And so they printed more and more and more to try to, like, say, $1 million for one Union dollar, you know, $2 million for one Union dollar, whatever. And nobody would have it. And I think the same thing will happen with fiat. They will keep printing it and printing it and printing it. And we will say, no, I would rather have Bitcoin. And the retailer will feel that way. And eventually, that's going to be the case. And I think it's going to happen very quickly because the Confederate dollar dissolved over a longer period of time, years, uh, but communications weren't as fast. But now we've got amazing communications around the world, and if there's a run on the dollar and they're, uh, running to try to transfer their dollars into Bitcoin, um, it's going to be a, um, it's going to happen very quickly.

So, but You have a price target, I don't know when you set it, of $250,000 a share for Bitcoin. Is that still your target right now?

Well, what's interesting is if it happens the way I'm thinking it's going to happen, sure. Yeah. I mean, people want a prediction. Sure. $250,000 by the end of this year.

End of 2025.

Yeah. But what's really going on is, We should really be not comparing it to the dollar anymore because the dollar is— all fiat currencies are going to fall against Bitcoin. They continue to fall against Bitcoin. People look at Bitcoin versus the dollar, they're looking at the Bitcoin price in dollars. If you look at it slightly differently, you flip it around, Bitcoin's to the dollar, you see the dollar just falling off the map. And, but people aren't looking at it that way. I think you should be comparing Bitcoin to, you know, how much, you know, a dozen eggs or whatever it is. I think that's a better way to imagine it because— It's, it's almost not fair to compare Bitcoin to the dollar because if you believe, as I do, that the dollar is an antiquated currency that is not long for this world, you know, in the next 10, 5, 10, 50 years, um, that's not even a fair comparison. So it should be paired. Maybe you compare Bitcoin against a commodity instead. Because longer term, you know, Bitcoin, in effect, Bitcoin goes to infinity against the dollar, but it doesn't become infinitely valuable. But the dollar becomes zero.

Okay, quick answer on this one. What's the advantage of paying If it was the way you're saying, your payroll for your company, paying your team members in Bitcoin versus how you're paying now, like I know that's what you're saying, I wish it was like that. What's the advantage? Yes, it's on a blockchain, but you're doing a payroll. Like why does it need to be on a blockchain or anything like that? You right now, you can use payroll companies, Gusto, I don't know, whatever, you know.

We now have 2 payroll companies in our portfolio, uh, Rise and and Bitwage that both pay, both allow companies to make payroll and to make some of that Bitcoin payroll.

Why is that better?

Well, it's certainly better for the employees because they have a choice and they can start thinking in terms of A new currency that is global, transparent, open, keeps perfect records versus one that is a little bit shadowed in government and one that is subject to political whims.

Yep.

Decreases in value whenever there's a war or a pandemic or whatever it is that the government decides is important. they're basically devaluing your capital.

Right.

You might as well have one that doesn't devalue, that there are only 21 million and that's all there will ever be.

Okay.

And people say, oh wait, but 21 million, that's, you know, I can't even afford one Bitcoin. Well, that's fine. Buy, you know, 500 Satoshis. Buy— and a Satoshi is like, 1 over 1 to the 10 to the 8th, 1 to the 10 to the minus 8th of a Bitcoin. There are, I don't know, Satoshis, maybe 10 Satoshis to a penny right now, something like that.

So, so 2 more questions on this one. Um, this person who said to me, ask him where he stores his Bitcoin, and also Are you afraid of Bitcoin getting hacked?

Well, it hasn't been hacked yet. My bank has been hacked many times. I've had to change banks because my bank was hacked.

There's that story of the guy throwing his key card in the dumpster for $800 and he wants to buy the whatever. I guess that maybe is the question. So like, how do you—

He probably didn't think of Bitcoin as being valuable at that time.

Okay.

Today, I don't think anybody's losing their key card. I don't think anybody's losing their Bitcoin. They are holding on to their Bitcoin. We used to give— I gave Bitcoins, the coins, the Cascadia coins, out to the first speakers at Draper University. But at that time, Bitcoin was $180.

Wow.

And I've had people since then tear their house apart trying to find the Bitcoin that I gave them. But at that time it was like, oh, whatever this, you know, some guy gave me this coin.

Yeah. I remember we had guys in 2014 at Benzinga who were mining Bitcoin in their basement and I'm like, these guys are crazy. And, but— Yeah.

You're not seeing people lose it now. I mean, if somebody holds onto a Bitcoin, that's $100,000.

So do you, do you hold your Bitcoin on your own wallet, your own, like your own system?

Um, it is, uh, spread out and I can't get to it alone.

That's interesting. Um, and Coinbase and Robinhood is where I have some of my Bitcoin. Um, do you think those are still good places even though it's not your own personal wallet?

Hell yeah. Oh yeah. Coinbase, Robinhood, Ledger. I mean, there there are others. Gemini.

Yep. Yeah.

Kraken. Yeah.

Back in the day when and then if you're international, Binance. Yeah.

There are a lot of places where I think you can you can pretty safely hold on to your.

There there there's some fear because.

But if you want to if you want to self custody, I think Ledger is your only bet. Ledger.

Okay. Because, you know, a few years ago, FTX, Voyager, and a few others went bankrupt. I was, I had a lot of USDC at Voyager actually, and that, and I didn't know there was any risk to it. And then I learned, you know, through, you know, people are getting money back now, but that's where there's some nervousness to go put your money more in Bitcoin where you can like just put it in a savings account where you know it's not being taken away. And some of these companies levered up. And Voyager and FTX, but not people are getting their money back through FTX. So that's— I think there's still some of that fear for investors in the market.

Yeah, there— I mean, there should be. There are because, I mean, there are people who lever up their businesses too much. I mean, that's what FTX did. That's what a number of companies do. Banks actually lever up their businesses pretty heavily too. Banks can now hold your Bitcoin. I think a few banks are going to be starting to do that too. So, there's another place to keep it. I think banks would be wise to start custodying Bitcoin because right now, it's really just You know, if you're going to custody your Bitcoin in the way that people have always done it, you will probably use Coinbase. If you are thinking in terms of self-custody, you would probably use Ledger.

Okay.

If you— but today, most people are really comfortable with keeping it at, you know, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan, Wherever. They're not Goldman, whatever. But, um, and those banks are slowly but surely starting to say, oh, okay, yeah, you can keep your Bitcoin here.

Yeah. So, so regarding that, the Bitcoin ETFs, are they a net positive or do they like dilute the original vision of decentralization? Bitcoin ETFs.

Okay, ETFs, just so you get the idea, when you buy an ETF you are buying a bet on the movement of the underlying asset. You are not buying the asset, you're buying a bet on the underlying movement. So when you have an ETF that has Apple and Google and something in it, you're not buying Apple and Google stock, you are buying a bet on the movement of those stocks. Same thing with an ETF on Bitcoin, you're buying a bet on the price movement of Bitcoin. If you do buy them, they were kind of for people who only wanted to work with their brokerage firm and didn't want to venture out to buy Bitcoin from a system. They were the only, only game in town. An ETF was the only way to get Bitcoin. Now, um, of course you can get them lots of other ways. Um, and so that's why, why people were buying the ETF instead of buying Bitcoin itself.

Got it.

They felt somehow more secure Buying the ETF, the right to, uh, trade on a— the upside price.

Yeah, that have potential upside. Do you think, um, besides Bitcoin, are there any other crypto sectors or projects that you're excited about right now? And a short answer if you have one. You have a couple more.

I know we're timeline. Sure. Um, yeah, there are a lot, but I think There is a gravitational pull toward Bitcoin. At the point of the first boom in cryptocurrency, 40% of the market was Bitcoin. On the next boom, 50% of the market was Bitcoin. And today, 61% of the market is Bitcoin.

Wow.

So, I think we're seeing a slow gravitational pull toward Bitcoin.

Okay.

People are excited about other currencies, and then they, when things go badly, they go back to Bitcoin. And I think that will continue to happen. But that is not to say that there won't be other currencies, there won't be other crypto innovations. I think Bitcoin will adopt all those innovations over time, but they won't be the first.

Okay. Got it. Okay. And your mic is picking up that pen thing again, just so you know.

Oh, sorry.

Then the last question on this Bitcoin thing. The naysayer would say to me, Jason, for Bitcoin to go up, people have to buy more Bitcoin. They're betting on it going up or down. If someone doesn't buy it, then, then it— and people sell, it goes down. It's like trading a stock, but there's no actual earnings, dividends, or anything like that. You're just betting on hope that other more people buy it, and that's all you're betting on. So Like, is there a real thing there?

No, you're betting on usage. And now there are, what, 50 million Americans that use Bitcoin and probably 500 million people worldwide that use Bitcoin. So, you are betting on usage just the way you are with any currency.

Yeah.

If there's more usage, it's more valuable. So more people use the dollar, it's more valuable. Less people use the dollar, it'll be less valuable. You have currencies that are like where people are stuck using them, like the naira in Nigeria. They're stuck and they have to use naira. Those are not valuable currencies, but they're in some ways, they do pay for some things. So, they are valuable. So, it's all a matter of how people perceive—

Adoption.

Adoption, how they adopt, how that adoption grows, and how it looks over time. And that's why you see price movement. Because if there's only a certain number of them, 21 million, uh, then as it, as it gets more adoption, as it goes from 50 to 100 million US and from 500 to a billion people worldwide who are using Bitcoin, um, the price of Bitcoin will go up because the usage will continue to And there are more uses all the time. There are more engineers working on it. A lot of interesting things happening in Bitcoin and all throughout the cryptocurrency environment.

No, I mean, you have 2 portfolio companies that do payroll. I mean, it's coming along. So the question that only you can answer, do you believe in Bitcoin more or the same like that you believed in Skype, Hotmail, Tesla when you were there in the early beginning days?

Skype, Hotmail, Tesla. Skype, I really was a big believer. Big. Um, Hotmail, I was pretty young when we sold Hotmail. I was, I was resistant to selling, but I did realize that it was, um, very expensive to hold on to that business because We were burning up servers faster than you could make them. Skype, I never wanted to sell Skype. I thought that was a big winner. And I made the mistake of selling my Tesla too early.

Really?

So, but Bitcoin, I have not made that mistake.

So, you said, okay, okay. So, all right. And then now we're moving to Elon Musk. Now, I know you have his ear, you know him, but you also saw him. Early days. But first thing is the Roadster. He's very busy with the White House and, you know, the world these days. Think we're ever going to see the Roadster that many people put $50,000 deposit on? I think that's how we're going to come out.

Do you have any— Everybody got their Roadster.

The new Roadster 3, the one that is going to have SpaceX, you know?

Oh, the new Roadster. Okay. Well, I don't know. He's come through in the past.

Yeah, for sure.

I believe I bought my Roadster. I spent $80,000 on my original Roadster, and it took 3 years for him to deliver, but he delivered.

Yep. He always delivers. And that, like, I watched an interview talking about how he, when he, uh, some company that he went into changed the contracts, did this, and turned the whole company around. It was Tesla. But he came in, did all these things. He figured out the supply chain, but The roadster, the only reason I remember the roadster is when you talk to him, it pushed him on that road.

That, that, that you want your roadster. I could hear it.

There's someone excited about that. Okay.

I'll tell you, he's a gift from the gods. The guy's extraordinary. He's made huge impacts on our world and he will continue to for many years, centuries to come.

I agree with you. When we, we're going to be off this interview in a second, but I'm going to show you something right after we're done. Don't hang up. I'm going to show you, but So Elon Musk, with helping with the US, you know, like kind of lower debt, do you think he's going to make an impact? And, you know, we haven't had an impact where government has trimmed costs every year. Everything goes up. And do you think he's going to have the impact that I think many people are hoping he does?

I think he's extraordinary. I think he, yes, I think he is making, he's already making a huge impact. He's identified some very serious problems that our government has just been able to continue to go like the monopoly it is, providing bad service at a high cost for a long time. And now it needs transformation, and he's going through a transforming time, and he's taking all the heat for it. And I I applaud him for that incredible effort, and I think he is going to be hugely successful. And we're all going to think it was our idea when all of a sudden the government's efficient and everything's working and America looks really cool and we're the center of all activity again. And we got big, fancy, beautiful buildings and big, you know, our transportation system is— Is firing on all cylinders, we're going to all think, oh yeah, because it's America. It's because we're here. It won't be because they won't remember all the hard work Elon did to get us there.

Thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed it. You are incredible. Your Draper University, I want to see how I can recruit from there because that is the most no-brainer thing. You've done a million amazing things. Draper University, Fucking best thing ever. The cold. Oh my God. I'm like, I was— I could have talked the whole hour about Draper University, just so you know. Okay. Thank you, Tim. I know you're busy.

We'll have to do it again. You are a good interviewer. Thank you.

I want to thank Tim Draper for coming on The Raz Report. His story is about inspiration, perspiration, overcoming obstacles. And this guy bought, what, 30,000 Bitcoin at $600 a share? Awesome stuff to learn. You should listen to this podcast more than once and hopefully You like and subscribe to The Raz Report. Thank you.