Facilitating Success: John Palen's Approach to Peer Group Dynamics

Welcome everyone to another episode of Mastermind Mastery. This is the podcast for you if you are wanting to create or already running peer groups. It's what we call PACs, Peer Advisory Councils. They might be known as mastermind groups, CEO peer groups, all the same. But this is the podcast if you want to run better PACs, that you want to be better at being a moderator, you want to up your game, learn advanced techniques, hear from myself as well as guests what works, new concepts, trends, techniques. Also learn content, things you can take back to your meetings, different ways to do different things to solve problems that we all have when we're running groups. It will increase your retention, reduce your attrition, get you more members, make you more money, this is the podcast for you. I'm Tina Corner Stolz, the host. I've been doing this since 2005. I built a territory of 10+ groups, sold for a multiple, started Ellis Council, Leader Exchange Council, in 2012. We are a licensing model. We are the leading educator in the peer advisory council space. We have the podcast. I have a licensing program with certification. I've written 2 books. So today, when you hear this episode each and every week, it's a new podcast where we dive deep into a topic for 15, 20 minutes. One week it's me doing a deep dive on all the experience and insights from not only today with our entire licensed partner community or the past, what I've learned along the way. But we also have guests that are out there doing groups today that share their insights and new concepts. So let's get started with today's episode. Welcome everyone to another episode of Mastermind Mastery, and I'm your host Tina Corner Stolz, and today's guest is John Palin of Allied Executives. So John, welcome to the show today.

Hi Tina, thanks. Pleasure to be here.

Yes, and we have so much that we can talk about because you have been doing this for a little while, but I love your model. And how about telling our audience a little bit about Allied. How did you get into this business and what does Allied really do?

We are a peer group company. And then, you know, I started it because I had been a CEO of a couple of different firms and would look— heard about peer groups, looked into it, but I never found one I liked. I was just frustrated because it just wasn't the right fit. Either the facilitator wasn't the right person or the members, the makeup of the group just wasn't a good fit for me. Longed for it. I wanted it but couldn't find it. I looked at a few different options, then I kind of gave up. And then later in my career, I, uh, uh, always had the idea about going back to that and then decided to start Allied from scratch. And in my due diligence, I interviewed all the competitors in the Twin Cities market— we're in Minneapolis, St. Paul, Minnesota— and, uh, um, some wanted to hire me. And then I just decided, you know, I, I felt confident in my ability to build groups and do it on my own and, and don't really need the resources that franchises or what the larger organization had to offer and just headed down with ignorance, did it on my own.

Great. And John, where are you all located?

Uh, Minneapolis-St. Paul, Minnesota.

Okay. And all your groups are there?

Yes. Yeah, we got, uh, about 20— 19 groups. We're building 2 right now, 2 more. We've got just under 200 members, and we've got about a dozen in each group. And the makeup of our members are, you know, companies doing $2 million up to a billion. Our wheelhouse is probably $5 million to $100 million in revenue, but we certainly have some doing less, some doing more, and we really focus on putting the right 12 people together around the same table. That's kind of our unique differentiator.

Yes. Okay, so speak a little bit more about that, if you would.

Yeah, but I mean, back when I was looking at it, you know, I, uh, in one case I was by far the biggest company, and some members didn't really have employees, or they were startup, or they weren't even an owner. And in other cases, the the peer group director facilitator got on a soapbox, wanted to tell everybody what they should do, and I wanted to learn from the other members and not the director. So I developed my own ideas from the bad experiences I had about what not to do. And then, you know, there are other companies out there bigger that have international presence that, you know, their facilitators competed with each other, and I didn't like that model. I'd rather collaborate with our peer group directors and facilitators and, and, you know, and put more of a focus on the right fit group for our members. So we conduct an interview and determine of all of our groups. Now, this is easier to do as you scale. When you only have a couple few groups, it's, it's difficult to do that, right? If I got an open seat and you want to pay, that's your seat, take it or leave it. That's all I got, right? But the bigger you get, the more we were able to adjust our right fit concept. So now when we meet with a prospect, we conduct an interview and determine within all of our groups which one would be the best fit. And then we can better, you know, manage that everybody around the same table belongs together for all the right reasons. And those reasons have to do with sophistication as an individual leader and as a company. How aware of the most sophisticated tools and practices are you and your company? And how well do you embrace those things to become a more sophisticated company? And based on that assessment, we can determine then, you know, call it, you know, beginner, intermediate, advanced. We have different terminology for it. Primary driver, business operator, and enterprise leader. And then that helps us, you know, you can't put a primary driver in the same group as an enterprise leader. They're just too far apart.

Yes. And speaking of that, you obviously then have others running groups. And if I'm correct, you call them directors, but they're facilitators. Right.

We call it on their title. Their card has peer group director, but yeah, we refer to them as facilitator.

So tell, tell the audience a little bit about that. And from the standpoint of if someone's out there listening and they're like, you know what, I even maxed out how many groups I want to do, or maybe, you know, I really want more, you know, of a team underneath me to run groups. So how about sharing with the audience a little bit about that?

Yeah, so, um, you know, I had 8 groups of my own, um, at one time, which is way too many to be effective, right? And then, um, you know, now I have 4, and ideally I should probably get down to 2 or 3. We, we tell our current peer group directors that, you know, we don't want them to have more than 2 groups. So all our directors either have 1 or 2, um, and if they want more, depending, we might be open to that, but we just think, you know, 2 is a good number. And then, and then, you know, our criteria for a peer group director is very strict. We've learned a lot over the years about what works and what doesn't work. And, you know, we've made adjustments based on our learning. But, you know, they've had to have been there and done that. They have to have been in the seat. They've been a CEO, a president. In some cases, they were part of corporate America, but they ran their own P&L and it was a large one. And they were successful. They sold, they retired, they, they collect, they cashed in, you know, they, they're done. I mean, in some case, some of our peer group directors aren't done because they're still investors and they're still playing in the game as a coach, a consultant. In some cases, they have portfolio companies that they own, but they've got the time and interest to help other business owners. They got the proven track record of having done it really well, and they have a very high EQ. So We use assessment tools to determine certain things about what makes a really good facilitator. And a lot of it has to do with listening ability, the ability to ask really deep, tough questions directly, and to really push and challenge people in sometimes awkward and uncomfortable ways, but also in affirming, loving, kind ways too. Not everybody's wired to behave that way.

No, no, no, not at all. Not at all. And so here's a facilitator. And so you have obviously have multiple ones. And how do you, as someone at the head of Allied, manage them?

Like, for better word, we have a monthly peer group meeting with just our team, all of our peer group directors and, and, uh, uh, Curt, our president, myself, the CEO, and our Chief Operating Officer Judy, who runs everything, um, and then all of our facilitators. We meet on a monthly basis. It's quarterly, it's in person, otherwise it's in Zoom. And the intent is to— like in a peer group, it's like an hour and a half long. When we meet in person, it's more— it includes a meal and it's longer, it's like a half a day. But, um, our intent is to collaborate with each other so that if If I'm having a difficult— if I have a member in one of my groups that's struggling and I don't know how to help them, I can go to my team and say, hey, this person's got this struggle, and what ideas do you have about what I can do to help them out? Or I might know somebody else on the team has a certain skill set in an area that they need, and I can say, hey, would you mind doing a lunch or a coffee and helping this person out? So we collaborate more that way. And then the other thing we do is, uh, we, we, uh, practice assessing each member in our peer groups. We have a formal process. We not only assess each other, but we also assess the members of each peer group and, you know, call it a plus, a plus-minus, or a minus. So we align our core values, and we're very clear on what our core values are and what characteristics fall underneath each of those. And then we just measure each of our members. Now, is this a member that is behaving authentically? Is it a member that's demonstrating curiosity? Is it a member that's trusted? Is it a member that's engaged? And an engagement one might be a net minus because, hey, I got a member who's missing more meetings than they're attending, and that's a detriment to the health of a peer group. So we've got measures that we use to help assess the health of a group. And as any group, it ebbs and flows. Some groups get into a funk, and it's based on poor turnout and poor attendance, weak discussion topics. So when we identify that that's happening, then we know that we got to do more one-on-ones. We got to call people out and say, hey, you're not making it a priority, and that's not aligned with our core values. And we're not afraid to challenge other— to risk losing a member by challenging them to step up and be better aligned with our values so that it's a better peer group meeting experience for everybody in the group. And so we got a team that's committed to doing that. And, you know, none of our peer group directors are doing it for the money. They've made all the money they need. They're doing it because they love doing it and they're paid well. But the motivation is truly that we want to help our members.

Sure, absolutely. And then I think you said you assess your facilitators too. Do you do that similarly? And like the same thing, like on engagement, vulnerability, curiosity, etc.?

Absolutely. Yes. And then we rotate through. Curt and I take turns rotating through sitting in on all the groups.

I was going to say, how do you do that? So that's what you do.

Yeah. So if I'm sitting in on someone else's group, the main reason, just because they don't give us many reasons to be concerned about their performance, right? They're the best of the best at what they do. I'm like the D squad because most of my peer group directors are like better than me, right? Yes.

I know that feeling. Yeah.

So when we show up, it's more to learn about where is that group at so that when we are interviewing a prospective member, we know which group more easily identify which groups are they a candidate to be a part of. So we sit in on each other's groups. One is, you know, I want to— Tim does a little more formal structure in his meeting, and another peer group director might want to Observe that, learn it, and apply it. And, and when we have new peer group directors come in, they have to observe and they become a member of a group for a period of time to learn the culture, the process. And then they, we also let them rotate through other people's groups because it's important that when we have a member go from one of our groups to another group, that it's the same brand, it's the same experience, it's a high level, and it's facilitated very similarly. And And everyone will know what an allied group looks like because we design them to function that way. So we rotate through other people's groups. It's telling us how the group is performing, how the facilitator is performing, and where, where are they at in that journey of sophistication and how, what do we need to know about when we have a measure that tells us, you know, what type of group it is. So we have a prospect, we know if they're a fit for that or not based on that measure.

Yep, absolutely. And as you kind of rotate through, it sounds like you probably can get rotated through once a year.

It varies. Like, well, this week I have a peer group director who has, who has a kid in crisis at a college out of the state, and I'm going to fill in for him. So I'm going to see the group. I'm going to be there. I'm going to take his place. I don't get to see him, but I'm not worried about that. I just get to connect with the group, which is, which is what we like to do. And in other cases, it's, hey, I know I want to be there while you run it because I want to see you run it too. But, you know, there's rarely ever concern that we have about a member or a facilitator running their group. It's more about, you know, is it the right fit group? Do we need to shift anyone around? And then we also talk in our team meeting of peer group directors. Is there anyone in your group that's not a fit? Do we have to coach them up? Do we have to move them into a better fit group? Sometimes people outgrow their peer group and in that life cycle of peer group, you know, the peer group can ebb and flow where everyone's showing up, everyone's engaged, everyone's loving it. That's awesome. You got to ride that wave and keep it there. But then maybe you turn— attendance starts experiencing a funk and maybe the energy level becomes down and then you start assessing, okay, is there anyone in that group that might be better served by being in a different group in which maybe they just need an upgrade? We've learned how to recognize, identify that. Been in our business model, that's where we collaborate and can help those members out and offer those opportunities. Now, oftentimes it doesn't happen because once someone's really tight in a group for a long period of time, they don't want to switch because they've built such depth and trust and, and familiarity that they want to keep that. But sometimes people will either outgrow a group or they'll get bored with it. So then we've learned to recognize, rather than have them leave and join a competitor, Hey, we've got other groups we can put you in one that's a better fit. Let's have a conversation about that so that we can offer you the best fit.

Absolutely. And so based on that, you know, I understand, like when I have, you know, facilitators under me before, like in when I had the franchise and stuff, very collaborative, etc., and sometimes we would move members around. And so I assume, do you then pay on— you don't have to reveal exacts, but on a percentage or flat?

So we pay— it's a commission. Yeah, we pay a commission rate on any member in any of our peer group directors. It's actually 30%. 30% is the facilitator's commission for the life of the member. They're going to get 30% of anyone in their group and then they get a sales commission of 20% for anyone they bring into the allied organization regardless of what group they go in. They get a commission on that, right?

So then overall they could make 50% on a member if they sold, right?

The reality is most of them, they don't wear sales hats anymore. They're kind of retired and they're not in the saddle anymore and networking. And, you know, we certainly do appreciate and get some sales effort out of our peer group directors, but it's not much. We got to internally focus on our own sales and marketing game to keep that thriving.

Oh, absolutely. Well, let's keep it along the lines of facilitating and facilitators as we kind of start to wind down a little bit here already, because I could talk to you for a very long time, which is What are some best practices for facilitating?

Well, like I said earlier, I think it's not just having been there and done that and proof of having been successful at it. You know, I've gone to the extent of even talking to some of their key leaders in the company that they previously sold. In a lot of cases, they were members. Then when they sold, I already knew them so well I didn't have to vet them very hard. So that familiarity helps. But once you do an assessment, once you really interview them and you check some of the references, then it's just a matter of, okay, how good are they at listening and how good are they at identifying what is the question behind the question? Because usually when someone says, I got a problem and I need your help here, group, their ability to articulate the problem or truly identify the root cause of it is where they need help. So our facilitators need to be really good at understanding and nurturing that process of, well, you said your question is this. However, after a little Q&A here, I think it's more— what do you think of it being more like this instead? And then having that skill ability is hard. That's the needle in a haystack. That's a hard person to find. But it's having that curiosity to just ask questions, to be a really good listener, to drill down. And also a facilitator who lets the peer group learn from each other, facilitate that, hey, I don't— my ego is such that I don't care who gives you the answer, the revelation, or the solution. I just want you to get it, and I'm here to facilitate that you get it. And if I can facilitate that it's coming from other members in my group that know and who've been there and done that, that can give you ideas to solve your problem, then that's my job. That's a home run for me as a facilitator, is to facilitate that. And then if, you know, and then at the end, if there's nothing there and I have the idea, I can certainly offer it and give it. Or if there's a time crunch and I'm going to cut to the chase and I would say, here's what I think. What do you guys think about that? That's okay too. But it's really about letting the group work, push each other, and facilitate that process and be able to listen and draw out the right questions in order to make those things happen.

Wonderful. And so, John, as we always come to the end, of our podcast together, our session, is what one piece of advice would you share with our audience that knowing that they're typically running groups already, and this could be about anything that comes to mind for you, but through your wisdom of doing this for a period of time, what would you share with the audience as a piece of advice?

I think it's to have confidence in yourself to challenge and push the members in your peer group that aren't the way that you think they need to be to make it a stronger, more valuable, and more high-performing peer group? You know, have the courage to take the risk to say something that might offend them, like, hey, your attendance sucks, and it's really disappointing not only to me but to the rest of your peer group members. Is that something you're going to be willing to address or change or improve because if not, I don't know that it makes sense for you to be in the peer group. And that takes a lot of courage, especially when you're struggling to build a group and get things going. And if the group's not 100% full, it's hard, even harder to do that. But I think those facilitators that make that commitment to communicate in that way are going to have a much better retention and a much more valuable solution over time.

I want to underscore the last thing you said, over time, because some of the most difficult things are doing that in the beginning because it sets the culture of the group ongoing, and it saves you a lot of issues in the future when you address that that way. And it really pays off no matter how uncomfortable it can be.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I've been doing this for 25 years, so it was probably more of the last 10 to 15 that I grew and matured enough to learn that and then start applying it. Right. So I think I already had 10, 12 peer groups before I realized, you know what, when a member frustrates me because they're not as committed or aligned as I'd like them, I'm going to start challenging them on it. And that's where things really started to shift for me.

Yes. And I equate a little bit of that to self-respect. Like, as the facilitator, you need to command that respect for yourself too, right? And not let things go. And it isn't about creating conflict. It's really about what the expectations and the standards are that you have set that they obviously knew about before they became a member.

Yeah, calling people out on their crap.

That's exactly right. Okay, well, John, how can our audience get a hold of you if they want to speak to you more, particularly whether they're a CEO up in your area of the neck or just, you know, anyone that wants to learn more about running groups? So how is it best for them to reach you?

uh, alliedexecutives.com. A-L-L-I-E-D-E-X-E-C-U-T-I-V-E-S, uh,.com is our website, and my email is there, my cell phone is there. Uh, feel free to look us up, give a call for any reason. I'd love to anybody about anything.

Excellent. John, thank you for joining today. Appreciate it. And to talk particularly in regards to when you have a team around you that you're managing and leading to run multiple groups. Um, so to everyone out there, thank you for joining us for another episode of Mastermind Mastery, and we look forward to, uh, hearing you all and seeing you next week. and until then, go make it happen. Thank you everyone for listening to another episode of Mastermind Mastery. And to get access to today's episodes, not only the show notes, but any tools and resources, encourage you to— not only will you find them in the episode show notes, but also you can go to the website www.lxcouncil.com. So LXcouncil.com, and you will find a plethora of articles and content and tools and resources and worksheets and things like that that can be helpful to you in creating and running successful PACs. I want to leave you with one thing that we end and teach to do in every single meeting, and that is the very last thing is to ask, what is your takeaway from today's episode? Episode? I encourage you to give that thought. Take advantage of the time you just invested in listening to the episode, and what can you do to move one step closer to the vision that you have and the goals that you're trying to achieve with your groups? So again, take a step back. What's your key takeaways? What can you actually act on? And I leave this with one note, and those of you that have read my book, Your Seat at the Table, You know that I ended the book with a story about my mentor. He always, when he met people, had a pebble in his pocket that he passed to them when there was knowledge shared. And so I ask you today to think about that pebble concept and to pass what you learned today on to someone else, which could be your members, or take it internally to yourself and act on it. So now go do something with those takeaways.