Responsible teenagers & letting kids make their own decisions | Tom Willerer (Dad of 2, COO Reforge)

There might be times when there's something my kids are going through that they don't feel comfortable talking to me about. They might not feel comfortable talking to my wife about, but I want them to feel comfortable talking to someone about it. And obviously they will have their friends, but there can be usefulness in having someone that's been through it before, which is probably not their friend because they're the same age, that they trust and they understand and like they know it's someone that they can get advice from. All of those things really matter. And I think that's the team sport aspect that I think is So important.

Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where we dive deep into the lives of dads who are also leaders in the world of startups and business. I'm your host, Adam Fishman, and in this episode, I sat down with Tom Willerer. Tom is the Chief Operating Officer at Reforge, was the Chief Product Officer at Opendoor and Coursera, and a VP of Product at Netflix. He is a husband and father of 2 teenage kids. In this episode, Tom talks about growing up in Michigan with 3 much older brothers, playing baseball in college, and the work ethic that instilled in him. We talked about the isolation and challenges that come from living far away from family, buying burritos for his wife when she was in labor, and the struggles of getting a newborn to sleep. Tom describes parenting as a team sport and talks about how the team changes As your kids get older. He also talks about how he reacts differently when parenting a boy and a girl, the rude awakening of drugs and alcohol at the teenage years, and letting your kids make their own decisions. This was a great conversation full of advice, frameworks, and especially dad jokes. I'm excited to share it with you. Please welcome to the Startup Dad Podcast, Tom Willerer. Tom, it is wonderful to have you here today. How are you doing?

Good. How are you, Adam?

I am fantastic. I am so excited for this conversation. So let's jump in. Tom, tell me about your background. Curious about you professionally and personally.

Absolutely. So yeah, my name's Tom. That's probably the first thing to know about me. And I grew up in Michigan. I grew up on a dirt road on an acre and a half near a rock quarry. So my backyard, we had this big berm and then over it, there was a little trail and you could go down and like kind of, it was like a pond. You'd go swimming in that. So That sets the scene, but it felt like right on the outskirts of town, a touch of rural, but you were in a suburb. And I grew up in a town outside of Detroit called Northville. I'm the youngest of 4, all boys. So I have 3 older brothers.

Wow.

I was a whoops and I know too much about the whole story and I won't go into that, but I was definitely a whoops. And my oldest brother is 12 years older than me. And then 11 and then 7 years older. So, so it's almost like I'm very close with all my brothers, but, you know, by the time you're 12, my oldest brother was 24. And you're like buying you beer. It's like out of the house. So it's a very different situation than if you have a sibling that's like within 5 years of your age to this. So we developed a closer relationship. The older I got. And it was almost like having very close uncles because there was no competition between us. We did sports together and they never really slowed down on anything. But at the same time, it's not like I was competing for a position with them. It was just like, oh, little Tommy's out playing with the older kids. And, you know, they're like, oh, isn't that fun? And then let's peg him with a wiffle ball and see what happens. So that was fun. I went through high school, went to Indiana University, I played baseball in college, so I was a pitcher, majored in business. My freshman year, interestingly, all of my friends were living normal college life and I was like, wow, that looks pretty cool. They get to wake up around whatever, noon, and have a few classes and then come home and hang out. Looks like a pretty good lifestyle. Meanwhile, I was starting classes at 8:00 AM. I had practice from like 11 until 3, and then I had classes again from 5 until 8. And I'd get home and I'd leave, they're asleep. I'd get home, they're on the couch like playing, what's the racing game? Mario racing game. Why am I blanking on that?

Mario Kart.

Mario Kart. Yes. They're playing Mario Kart. And I'm like, oh man, that looks really fun. So I call my dad and I'm like, hey, yeah, this college thing's fun. I think I want to keep going with that, but I'm going to go ahead and stop playing baseball. And he is like, yeah, that's great. You're on scholarship. You can come on back to Michigan and go to a school in Michigan. And I loved the school. I was a business major. It's a good business school. It's a great campus. Loved it. I had a bunch of friends and I thought, okay, well that was the simplest conversation I've ever had. I guess I'm playing baseball all 4 years. So, and you know what? I'm very glad I did, even though the experience was tough because when I came out of college, You know, you start your first job and I started my first job at an ad agency in Chicago and everyone was exhausted. They were like, oh my gosh, I worked from 9 to 5 today. I'm exhausted. This is so hard. And I thought, this is simple. I've been doing more than this for 4 years. So the work ethic and the hard work that you do gives you like a massive leg up by playing a sport like that. And I'm very grateful that I had that experience. So that's a little bit of my background. I don't know if there's anything you want to pull the thread on and go deeper on.

Well, I'm curious about how you found your way into tech. And do any of your siblings work or live in the Bay Area? Are any of them involved in technology of any kind?

No, my oldest brother does sales. My second oldest brother is a financial planner. And then my third brother works in like supply chain and logistics. So none of them are in tech. I found my way into this. So I graduated in 2000. I moved to Chicago. I was working at an ad agency and the ad agency did a bunch of work with like what would've been considered the technology companies of that age, like Sun Microsystems or BlackBerry, honestly, RIM. You know, there was no iPhone at that point and everyone walked around with a BlackBerry. So, And I worked on those accounts, so I was very interested in tech. I was a very early adopter of many of the platforms. You know, I was on Twitter in like 2006, like pretty early.

It's now X, Tom.

It's been rebranded. I have not been on Twitter for like 10 years. So I just was like, I was an early adopter of a lot of the social platforms and technology, and I worked on this in my professional life. And then I was recruited by Netflix. So Netflix was looking for someone to do— I did like strategic planning and consumer research in the agency world. Netflix was looking for something like that. And in 2007, they recruited me. My wife grew up in California. She grew up in San Diego. We met at Indiana University. She was a ballet major and ballet psychology. So she had an outside field there. She went on, she is now a doctor. She's a doctor of physical therapy. She no longer practices that, but that's where we met. And she, you know, I was in Chicago. I thought Chicago was the greatest city in the world. So much fun. There's a lake, you know, the city's amazing. Pick out the grave sites. We can bury me here. Like, I'm good. And my wife's like, yeah, it gets cold here. There's no ocean. And by the way, there's only a few trees. It's like, there's not a lot of nature here. So once she found out that Netflix was recruiting me, she was like, did you say yes yet? And Netflix is in this small little quaint town called Los Gatos, which is where I live now. And I came out to visit and I'm like, oh my gosh, if my wife sees this, there's no way we're not moving here immediately. And, you know, the rest, basically the rest is history. I joined Netflix when it was right on the cusp of going from DVD to streaming. And we made that pivot and, you know, that's how I made my way into tech. Wow.

Wow. And so, so you have a wife, you mentioned your wife, you have 2 kids. I think you've, you have a boy and a girl, 2 kids. And how old are your kids? And where were you in your life when you joined Netflix? Were kids in the picture yet? Were you thinking about it? So tell me about your kids and sort of, I guess, the decision to start a family.

So I've been in the Bay Area about 16 years. My daughter Her name is Kenzie and she is 14. So we moved out here and I was just about to turn 30 and my wife was like, hey, let's have kids. And I was like, let's not. I like my life. It's pretty great to do whatever you want whenever you want and have actual money to be able to do that kind of stuff. Like, this is cool. And You know, so we kind of went back and forth on that. I eventually did want kids and we, you know, I caved and we had kids and I'm very grateful and glad that we did. And so about a year into moving to California, we had my daughter Kenzie. Her birthday is Halloween, which is a very fun birthday.

Oh, fun.

And yeah, you know, my wife's from San Diego. My family's in Michigan. We're in Northern California. And we didn't know anyone, so we didn't really know anyone around here. So we were like joining, I was like joining my wife into like mom and baby groups just so we can, I'd go and like stalk it and meet people just to meet other people. And the funny thing is we would talk about this all the time. My daughter was hard to get to sleep. So she was colicky and our first 6 months were like living nightmare. You'd wake up every 2 hours.

Yeah.

And you realize how important sleep is. It's like torture to not have sleep. And we would Google things like how to get a baby to sleep, how to do this. And I realized like, that's not the way things were done 100 years ago. You just had grandma and aunt and uncle and grandpa right there. And you'd say like, what do you do? And they'd probably give you some advice that's not good now. Put some rum on their lips. I was going to say, put some whiskey on their gums.

That'll help.

Exactly. Exactly. But like, the point is still like they were around to, to support. And like, because we didn't know anyone out here, the support network was basically like Google until we built up a community out here. And then I had, our son came along 22 months later. So he's 12. And then eventually like they hit school age because it felt very isolating until they started kindergarten. We didn't know a lot of people. You feel like you can't really leave more than like a 20-mile radius of your house because you got to get back for nap time. You don't really have the like people that you can totally depend on. You're still meeting new people. It's very tough to move to a new place and then have a kid. That's why a lot of people have a kid and move closer to home because they get that support that way. Once kindergarten started, it was like built-in community immediately. The kids have friends. Those parents are looking for other parents to hang out with. And you just like all of a sudden have an entire community of people and it was a game changer. So school and the community that's built up around school, and we live very close to our elementary school and like a lot of those become our very close friends. That was like very instrumental for us.

That's really awesome. So I want to ask you a little bit about that, but I wanted to just touch on one thing really quick, which you mentioned sleep. And the lack of sleep and kind of being a zombie. What are the sort of earliest memories you have of becoming a father? Now that you're gonna have to dig deep into the archives here, cuz you're going back, you know, 12 to 14 years, but what do you remember most about becoming a dad?

I remember how there's a lot of manual labor in being a parent of a newborn. That's one. So that's the earliest memory I probably have is Well, I remember, so I remember all of it. I remember my wife giving birth. That was, her labor was very long and we delivered in a hospital, but we had a midwife with us and the midwife was this German woman who'd probably seen like 1,000 births. And she had a book that just flipped through from like 40 years of all the births that she's done. And I was sent out, you know, 'cause I'm not doing anything really. So I was Sent out to go get both of us food. The midwife—

Yeah, that was my job. That was my role during the birthing process too. Food bringer.

Terrible idea. Terrible idea. So I went and got burritos because—

Oh, of course.

Why, why wouldn't you get a giant burrito? So I come back with 2 burritos for myself and the midwife. I was like, I felt like I was in the clear. The midwife gave me a task. I'm accomplishing that task. I'm doing something productive. You know, later do I learn that, you know, labor really started and it was really bad for that hour that I was gone. And then I came back and we're eating burritos in the room and it made the room smell. And how could I do all of that? And I just, so the stories my wife tells about this are like hilarious. 'Cause it's like, Tom left right at the critical moment and went off and got burritos and he was missing it there. And I was like, but I was sent off. I had a task. The midwife told me. I thought they were like the sacred being that gave you things to do. And, you know, you were infallible if you did those things. And no, no, it was a bad call. So I remember that. I remember the nurses knit her a little pumpkin hat because she was a Halloween baby, which was really cool. We used that quite a bit. And then I remember when she was young, like I said, we tried to get her to go to sleep like A lot. And we had this nickname for her, which was One-Eyed Kenzie, because she would fall asleep and we're like, oh gosh, thank you. And we had sound machines blasting and everything rocking and doing all the things. And then all of a sudden she'd be asleep and then one eye would just go pop up and it was like, oh no, it's One-Eyed Kenzie. She's back.

That's amazing. The anxiety of like, oh God, please don't open that one. Please don't open the eye. Please stay asleep. You know?

Oh my gosh.

Just dreading bedtime.

Oh, it was nap time, bedtime, any of those things.

Any sleep. Those are some amazing stories. The burrito one is especially like on point. Just a classic dad move. You think you're being helpful and you're actually doing the worst possible thing you could do at that moment in time.

I mean, I mean, let's be clear, like I probably could have seen that one coming.

You're an intelligent man, Tom.

I probably could have seen that one coming, but I have to say, like, I was hungry and a burrito sounded really good.

Yeah, I mean, burritos are delicious. So, okay, so one of the things you talked about, you know, you've got this family spread all over the place, right? You've got Michigan, you've got— which, by the way, because I'm from Michigan, I think that's why we get along so well, Tom.

The best people.

The best people. Midwestern sensibilities. So you've got the Michigan family, you've got the wife from San Diego, you've got no family here in the Bay Area, but that's where you ended up and that's where your kids were born. One of the things that you talked to me about sort of in preparing for this show was that a big lesson you learned is that parenting is a team sport. So tell me more about what you mean about parenting being a team sport.

Yeah, it kind of goes back to what I was talking about where it's weird that we were trying to get lessons on how to parent from Google. It's just strange. I mean, now you'd use ChatGPT and maybe it'd be even better, but also still kind of strange because it's not just lessons. You need the emotional support. You need to know that you're not going crazy. You need to be able to hand off to someone and be like, give me a break for a second. All of those things are very important. And so that's what I mean by team sport. There you need, yes, you've got your spouse, significant other, whomever, but you need a network of people around you that love and will support both you and your kids.

Yeah.

And, you know, as they get older, I'm like, I don't know what they're always doing. They go off on a Super 73. That's a whole topic, by the way. Super, you know, the Super 73s?

I don't know. Tell me about what a Super 73 is.

I'm curious.

This might be in my future.

Google Super 73 and you'll want one, but you'll dread your kid wanting one. So there are these e-bikes that look like old school kind of motorcycle things. They're very cool looking, but you know, and I get it. Like if you're 14, you want your independence and you want to be able to go places without mom or dad dropping you off somewhere. But at the same time, you know, you worry about these things and what they're doing and you just start worrying because your kid, it's your kid. So like your heart just went out with them, but you can't actually control them. You have to let it go. And that's the other part of this team sport, which is, you know, eyes and ears around town. Like I've had people say, oh, I saw Kenzie around. And I'm like, and what's going on? And they're like, All fine. Like she was just hanging out and it's like, cool. And you kind of, you know, it's not like it's a surveillance state, but you want people that are going to be able to support, be able to help, be able to relay information. You know, like all of that is really important. Even as the kids get older, there might be times when there's something my kids are going through that they don't feel comfortable talking to me about.

Yeah.

They might not feel comfortable talking to my wife about. But I want them to feel comfortable talking to someone about it. And obviously they will have their friends, but there can be usefulness in having someone that's been through it before, which is probably not their friend because they're the same age, that they trust and they understand. And like, they know it's someone that they can get advice from. All of those things really matter. And I think that's the team sport aspect that I think is so important.

How would you say the Who's on the team has kind of changed as you've gone from kids at a very young age to school age to now teens, almost 2 as teenagers, right? One is teenager and one almost there. How does a team change over time?

Well, if you asked my kids, their team would consist of literally all their friends. So, the influences— so, my influence felt strong when they were younger. And then as you get older, they're like, well, my friends do that. My friends do, my friends, my friends, you know, it's all about friends, which is probably super positive and like really good for them psychologically. And there's a whole bunch of things, but you know, you wonder what the influences are. And obviously 14-year-old brains are just a little bit different. So, so their perspective would be like their team is mostly their friends. So that would be like one evolution where I think mom and dad as the central figure to friends as the central figure from the kid's perspective. And then as a parent, there's a whole bunch of things you'd like to say, don't do this and don't do that and don't do it. But it's really hard because it's like, on the one hand, if you go too far down the, you can't do anything, they're just going to find a way to do it anyway. And just not tell you about it. If you get on the other end of like, do whatever you want, then it's probably, maybe there's not enough boundaries there. And like whatever topic you want to insert there. So having, from my perspective, the team is now like, I have a brother who has kids that are older and gone through this already. So now I can go and use him as a coach.

Yeah.

You know, hey, this is what's going on and here's why. What should I do? And here's what I'm thinking about. And here, and he'll just say, yeah, I've gone through this. Here's what I would think. You know, it's no big deal. Or yeah, that might be a big deal or you should intervene or don't intervene or whatever it is. 'Cause all of these things are entirely ambiguous as a parent and how to do it. So me now having that network of not like physical labor people, like here, take kid, feed kid, get kid to sleep. Now it's much more How do I deal with this? What should I do here? I don't know how to handle these situations. There is no manual for this and it's much more ambiguous. So me having that support network of other people that have gone through it, maybe are 10 years ahead of it and can now look back with a little perspective is very useful.

It's sort of interesting because professionally we talk a lot about getting professional coaching. Right? And when you're earlier in your career, it's very tactical. It's, you know, how do I do this specific thing? Or take the baby and help me, right?

Exactly.

And then as they get older, it's more of the soft skills. How do I deal with this difficult situation at work versus how do I deal with this difficult situation with my teenager? I don't know, being around alcohol for the first time or something like that. I mean, the similarities and the overlap is always incredible to me. It's all human, you know, it's all managing humans in a way.

It's all relationships. It's kind of all comes back to relationships in some way. And this is no different than that. So I, I think that's a great parallel.

I wanna follow up cuz I mentioned, you know, teenager trying alcohol for the first time or being exposed to alcohol. And I'm sure this is a, you know, having a tween and a teen or almost 2 teenagers at this point. Is a different situation than some of the other dads I talk to who have newborns or elementary school-aged kids. And so I'd love to hear from you about some of the trials and tribulations of having teenagers.

My son will turn 13 September 1st, so he's like almost 13. My daughter is 14.

Yeah, he's there.

And yeah, they're both basically there. And kids are just so different. My daughter is the most social person in the world. She would talk to a wall, you know, if that was all that was around, she would do that. So her friends, she knows people at like all the adjacent schools around. It's just like her network is massive. And my son has a great close group of friends, but he's not the like social person who would go and meet everyone at all times. So like kids are very different and that's one. I also like going back to when they were young, I had a feeling that like, oh, I'm going to, as a parent, I'm going to shape them and mold their personalities. And you realize there's just a lot of it that's pre-baked in them. You know, they're on a trajectory and maybe you can like bump it one way or another, but their trajectory is kind of like they're there. And that's really awesome because it isn't just like me molding it. There's like a little person that, you You're trying to discover and find who they are and help them discover and figure that out. And that's really fun. But yes, the challenges are different as they get older. And so what I was talking about with my son and my daughter, just because of who they are, and even honestly, just like one's a boy, one's a girl, I have found it's interesting, me as a dad, how I respond to them is different. It's weird. So with my daughter, There's boys around and right or wrong, probably mostly wrong, I view the boys as an enemy. I am like, there are enemy targets, you know, nearby. We need to get rid of them. You know, like, that's my feeling.

Seek and destroy.

Seek and destroy. There are boys around. I need to be in protect mode. Of my daughter, like, and that is probably not the most healthy view of it. I'm just like, that is what's going on in my head. I don't act on it all the time, but that is what's happening on my head. So you know, sometimes I put the tank top on and go outside and flex a little.

I'm sure the neighbors would love that.

Exactly. So you know that that's how I feel with my daughter. With my son, I'm on the other end. There's situations where you know I hear that there's like girl has a crush, and I'm like. You do not be rude to her.

Yeah.

You don't have to like her back, but if she says hi, you say hi. You don't talk bad behind their back. Like, the reactions I have are just very different with the two of them, which is interesting. But yeah, my daughter is at this, like, just going into freshman year. She went to a concert this weekend, Luke Bryan, a popular country star, at Shoreline Amphitheater, which for a parent feels like You're going into the great abyss.

Yeah, there's like— Shoreline is like 20,000, 25,000 people.

It's a lot. And she had lawn tickets. And this is like not a sit-down symphony, enjoy the music. This is like, let's have a party and let's have a good time type of a show. And, you know, we were obviously like, how about Mom goes with you and your friends? And she was like, how about you just drop us off?

Yeah.

And you know, this is the thing, you have to like go, okay. And we talked to her about drugs, alcohol, what you're gonna see. And she just thought we were being ridiculous. Like, oh, you guys are overthinking it. And she came home and she had a great time, loved it, danced and sang the whole time. Like it was all good. But she came home and she's like, oh my gosh, there was a lot of people doing drugs and drinking. And She said, I went to go to the bathroom and I saw someone I knew that came outta the bathroom and they're like, don't go in there. There's 3 girls puking in there right now. And so it was, it was a bit of a like, whoa. Yeah, this is different. Now, nothing happened. It was all good. Like her time was fine. It just adds another level of worry and stress to a parent's life knowing that your kids are off doing that. And it just changes.

Yeah.

It just changes. And, you know, my son is, Still in the, like, there could be a beautiful woman would walk by on the beach and get in the middle of his wiffle ball game. And he'd be like, oh gosh, you ruined the wiffle ball game. That's where his mind is. And like, honestly, I kind of understand that 12-year-old boy brain pretty well.

Yeah.

So that, that's where his mindset is, which I think things will change obviously, but that's where he is right now.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, nothing throws reality in your face like hearing the reports from your 14-year-old daughter following the country music concert at Shoreline Amphitheater.

Yeah.

Things you didn't even know could happen anymore. So, you know, I wanted to talk a little bit about this because another thing that you mentioned to me is about, you know, your role as a parent in letting kids make their own decisions. But I imagine that there's a spectrum, right, of when it's okay for them to make a decision and, and when you need to intervene or need to have a conversation with them and sort of prepare them for it. So, what have you found is the hardest part about letting your kids make their own decisions in life?

Well, they don't make the decisions you want them to make. It's like, that's the hardest part. And even if honestly, it's not a Catastrophic decision. Most of these aren't some catastrophic thing. It's just like, I probably would've done things a little bit different than you. That's one thing that's really hard. The other thing that's really hard is I think it's easy to make your kids a project. All of a sudden, I'm living my hopes and dreams through their performance in whatever— school, sports, socially. So I, as a parent, want them to be the most popular. I, as a parent, want them to be the best athlete. I, as a parent, want them to be, you know, valedictorian and get into Stanford. And because of that, like, I want to force decisions on them that aren't authentic to them. How do you balance that? How do you push them without pushing them over, you know, or pushing your— imposing what you want them to be on them? But you also want to guide them. And it's just, there's no real good answer to any of this. And I'd say sometimes you screw up. I do that. I'll tell my kids like, hey, probably pushed too far. Sorry. You know, what I want might not be exactly what you want. That's okay. You're not a failure just because of whatever. And just try to talk through it. I probably have conversations with my kids that are more adult-like Then they're, they probably look at it like, oh, that was weird. You know, we had like a business meeting about something. We tried to talk about it very rationally, but I don't know how— Dad brought a PowerPoint.

Dad brought a PowerPoint, some slide decks.

I have no PowerPoint rule in my household. It's all memos.

Oh, right. Memos. That's, I forgot. That's Netflix. Yeah.

Yeah. That's the whole thing. Gotta be a memo. I was like, what's your hypothesis here? No, but I think that, that is hard. Like, I, I believe pretty firmly that you do have to give them a lot of independence in their decision-making because if you don't do that, you can force a bunch of decisions on them, but kids and people are smart and kids and people will figure out a way to do it without you knowing what they're doing.

Yeah.

So you're trying to instill, you know, whatever set of values you have as a parent in your kid and help them become a productive, Human in the world. But at the end of the day, they have to desire that. They have to want to do all of that. So kind of the only way to get there really is for them to start making decisions. Sometimes having that decision be wrong, not hammering them if it was, but talking through it, supporting it, you know, kind of coaching back to where you think they should be.

It's just It's hard.

You just have a lot of messy conversations that feel like, did I actually get through? Did anything I say matter to them at this point? And then you hear about it and it's usually like you hear about it from someone else. Oh, your kid was over and they did whatever, little things. They said please and thank you. And they, we fed them and they cleared the table without us even asking. And you're like, I don't know why. It's just those moments where as a parent you're like, oh my gosh, I've done it already. You know, like you just feel like everything has come together. But it's not like in a meeting, you have a meeting with your kid and you discuss it and they go, that makes sense, Dad. I'll do that. They just kind of listen and they talk and then you hear about their behavior and you go, oh, I like the results I'm seeing there.

Yeah. They listen and they talk and then they're like, okay, I'm going to get back to my wiffle ball game now. So a couple follow-ups on that. What's an example of a time where you think you maybe leaned in too much or kind of were too forceful in how you wanted to see something go?

So I'll talk about athletics. So my wife basically played a college sport in ballet. Indiana had a school of music that was on par with like Juilliard, and their ballet program was at that level. It was very good. She danced For a seasoned professional at the San Diego Ballet, and a lot of her friends went on and did this. So they were very talented. And I played baseball in college. So we have a high standard for that athletic performance.

Sure.

And, you know, for my daughter, she's very athletic. She's very talented. She's very good. Like, it's all good, but we've struggled with how far, like, You hear kids are like, while they're in the backyard, quote, on the ball, you know, doing something with soccer against a rebounder or training or doing whatever every day. And that's just not right now my daughter's vibe. Like she'll practice, but she's not a, like, I'm going to wake up at 8:00 AM and like go out there and I'm going to crush it. You know, like that's not her.

Yeah.

It's not her MO. And that's all good. Like she's very talented. She's very good. Like, I don't think it's necessarily A bad thing. It's probably healthy to have more of a balance, but my wife and I's predisposition would be more towards like pushing her to do that. And there's been many a time where we get into some sort of argument with our daughter about like, "Well, why aren't you doing it?" And sure, from her perspective, it might feel like mom and dad don't think I try hard enough. And That's like not at all the message we want to convey, but where it comes from is both our lived experiences and also probably us just over-indexing on trying to make her into something that she's not yet it, or that's just not the way she's going to express her talents there. And that's okay.

Mm-hmm.

That's like one example that's pretty real. My son plays baseball, you know, same sport I played, and I've coached him. For a while, and I've intentionally tried to be— I heard one athlete say, if you played the sport with your kid, it's like they're always going to feel like you're critiquing them. So the only 2 questions they ask are, how'd you feel out there? And did you have fun?

Yeah.

So I've tried to emulate that quite a bit just to be like, how'd you feel out there? Jeff Fund. It's really hard though, because there's about 15 things that I see that I want to critique and change and why did you do that? And it always creeps out. And I think my kids have gotten to the point where they can, and I like this, where they can be like, it's okay, Dad, just, it's fine. There's a bit of a, it's not like talking back in a bad way, but it's pushing back. And I appreciate it because I'll go, oh yeah, you're right.

You're right. Yeah.

Totally.

I agree. Yeah.

So the athletics one, I think hits home pretty hard for all this stuff.

Yeah. And I think what's interesting about what you mentioned with your son being a baseball player and you also being a baseball player, you know, to a very high level, right? Playing in college. And then this tendency to wanna correct or give him feedback or something. One of the things I find is kids are harder on themselves. And so even if you don't say anything, oftentimes they know they messed something up and they're kind of disappointed.

And you just give them a look and you're like, they'll think about that look forever. You know, how many times we've all experienced it. We've all had the dad disapproval or parent disapproval look and it's like soul crushing. Yeah.

So we've covered a lot of what I would describe as like frameworks or guardrails for parenting, but I wondered if there was something you know, a particular philosophy or a framework or something that you subscribe to? I know professionally you work with a lot of frameworks. I think we all do. But yeah, I don't know personally if maybe you or you and your wife have something that's sort of a framework or an expectation or a philosophy that you subscribe to.

It's not necessarily only related to parenting, but I maybe 10 years ago heard this framework around how to think about your life and your career. And this has been out there for a while, but it resonated with me of, you know, the first third is around learning, the middle is around earning, and then the last third is around returning.

Yeah.

And I think that it's overly simplistic, but I, because I think you can, you know, Like, for instance, the return piece doesn't need to wait until you're 60. You know, the giving back to the world, you can start to instill that in your kids at a young age. But I like that as a framework for how to think about approaching life a bit of—

Yeah.

You know, there are going to be periods of time when you're in a learning period of time and that you should just maximize that piece of it. There are going to be times when you're really in your earning point. It doesn't mean you can't learn or return during those, but that might be the thing that is maximized. And then there are going to be times when both of those are not it. And you're in this, like, I'm just going to be in a place where I'm trying to give back some of what I have gotten to others in whatever way that looks. That might look like as a parent, that's a lot of what you're trying to do with your kids is Yeah. You know, help them become good humans, good citizens, and take a lot of the lessons that you've learned and help them see around those corners and steer in a different way. Maybe you might also do that with your friend's friends. Maybe you might also get involved in some, you know, causes that you care about. Like all of that, I think is a, it's like a helpful framework that I've seen as one.

I love that learning, earning, and returning. I'm not sure I've ever heard that framework before, but that's phenomenal. So, I will take that one to heart. So, now for a tough question. One of the things that I find is that partnership is really important when you have kids. And you mentioned it's a team sport. And the first person on your team is your spouse, if you're fortunate. And so, you have to agree with your spouse on a lot of things. You have to be in alignment. But I'm also curious to hear about areas where people don't agree. So what's an aspect of parenting that you and your wife don't have the same point of view on?

We're generally pretty aligned on things, which I think is what creates a good partnership. We're not on other ends, but I'm more on the, we have to give the kids some freedom to make decisions, and we're not always going to agree with those decisions. And my wife would be like, nah, let's just like shut that down. And like, I appreciate it. I guess the reason why I don't subscribe to that necessarily is I'm not sure it works.

Yeah.

It like works in the short term, but I'm not sure it works in the long term. And I think we'd both agree that we'd want our kids to make the right decisions. And there are some decisions that you're going to shut down, but By and large, I want to give them a lot of freedom on, like— so for instance, like sleepovers. Neither of us like sleepovers, just— but as a category, I'm like, can we just all the parents get together and do away with sleepovers?

Why don't you and— why don't you and your wife like sleepovers, aside from the fact that no sleep ever takes place at a sleepover?

Yeah, it's just no sleep. It's like a whole— it's hassle for the parent. No one sleeps. Like there's no controls on screen time. You know, you're just like, the kids are on Snapchat for like 7 billion hours. It's, there's nothing wrong going on, but it's not a, it doesn't feel like a productive and healthy thing. And there's almost like an extreme nature to sleepovers, especially in summer. We're in summer right now. So it'll be, this is how it goes down. Kid is out with all the friends. This like happened last night. And then they're like, oh, it's 9 o'clock. Can you turn the heater on in the hot tub? And it's like, no. They're like, I don't want 5 kids in the backyard right now. And then we like pick up, pick them up from downtown where they were like, whatever they were doing, getting ice cream and, you know, doing whatever. And then they're in the car. Friends are in the car. One of the parents' kid goes, can I have a sleepover? And it's just like, I feel held hostage here. You know, like their strategy is a good one. They've got their friends there witnessing it. You don't want to be like the non-cool parent who says like, no. Well, why not? Well, I want you to get a good night's sleep. You know, you just seem like you're from 1920. And so, yeah, you just get sort of snookered into doing sleepovers and they'll do them like 5 days in a row.

Yeah.

It's like, can you not maybe for this time? And so sleepovers. But all of that, so like my wife and I agree on all of that. I would probably let more sleepovers happen than she would by like a pretty wide margin.

Okay.

She would be fine just being like, no, you can't. Sorry.

Lay the hammer down. Yeah.

Just drop the hammer. And I'm, I don't know, it's summer and yeah, If you're gonna do it, this is the time to go do it. And you might as well get some points because you're gonna have to drop the hammer on something else at some point.

That makes sense. It's funny that you mentioned that the kids know the strategy, right? Because my son who is 8 is already doing this with playdates right now. When you're your kid's age, you don't have to worry about playdates 'cause they coordinate their own stuff, right? But my son will see a friend, They'll do something like they'll be at a camp together, and then immediately afterward at the pickup, he's like, hey, can I have a playdate with so-and-so? And of course, the playdate was not in the plan for the day because a playdate with a couple of 8-year-olds is a lot of work for me. And so, I often have to be the bearer of bad news, unfortunately. But I've been teaching him valuable life lessons about planning in advance, which is good.

Well, that's what, you know, we're like, hey, why don't you talk about like We're leaving tomorrow and like a sleepover tonight probably doesn't make the most sense. And why don't we talk about this ahead of time? So planning is definitely not their strong suit. No, like, I did plan, we talked about it 5 minutes ago and now I'm telling you. Right, right.

It's like startup planning.

Yeah.

Okay. So, you know, one other thing that I want to talk to you about, and you mentioned you and your wife see eye to eye on a lot of things, which I think is fantastic, and you're fortunate. One of the things that you mentioned sort of in our discussion ahead of this is that it's really important for spouses to think of the needs of their partner over their own needs. And when that doesn't happen, you see a lot of friction. Tell me more about that and how have you both tried to do that?

I think this is a really hard principle to try to overcompensate. And, you know, it's almost like Walk a mile in their shoes and think about what they're going through and try to put their needs forward. And I think if both sides were doing that, the relationship gets stronger because, you know, there's no, well, you always win. You're always the one who gets what they want. And it's my turn to get what I want. If both sides are kind of saying, well, I want you to win. No, I want you to win. That's a very different mentality and philosophy. I'd say I mostly fail at this. You know, for instance, like, you know, you learn all these like, just like cheesy terms, like love languages, but they're like helpful concepts. And my wife's— my wife, not wives. I don't have multiple wives. News shock. I don't have multiple wives, but my wife's Love language would be something in the gifts. Like, she loves gifts. That is probably the opposite of mine. Well, it's not probably.

Sure.

It is the opposite of mine. And it's weird how this happens quite often, where the thing that she wants, I don't value at all. So I'm terrible at doing this for her, and she goes way out of the way for doing this for me. Because she values it a lot, so she does this for me. And I don't value it a lot, so I don't do it for her. So when I've gotten this right, it would be something like I go out of my way to plan a surprise weekend getaway and thought through a bunch of details on it that were surprising for her. Or even more simply than that, she values communication. I'm more like, I don't, well, it's not that I don't value it. I just don't need it. The frequency of communication's probably a little bit different. And I was on a bike ride this weekend. It was a long ride and I was with a friend and the friend got a flat tire basically up at the summit and the valve was stuck because of all the goo and gunk that got in there. So we couldn't unscrew it to change the tire. So some, you know, very helpful person that lived up in the mountains was like, oh, run back home and get my toolbox. And like, Helped us, but it delayed the whole thing. It was like already a long, exorbitant ride, probably 2 hours, but that delayed us another hour.

Mm-hmm.

And I'd say 9 times out of 10, I would've just like been hanging out up there. It's totally fine. I'm talking to friends, you know, bikers roll by. Oh, I can get the, you know, and I try to fix it and it's just like a, it's a scene and it's fine. And I wouldn't have checked in with her. And this time I was like, I'm going to send her a quick text and just say, hey, Mike got a flat tire. Just so you know, this is tiny. This is so tiny. Like, what did that cost me? Nothing. Zero. Absolutely zero. And because that's out of the ordinary, like, because I don't actually follow the principle that I think I should follow so well, like that little communication, you know, was, went like a mile. She was like, oh, I'm so glad you did that. Thank you. And You know, I would've been worried and all this stuff. And it's like, that's like a tiny example of that principle that honestly cost me nothing. It was just me being thoughtful about the whole thing. And I think that's basically, you know, a very small example of how to live that out that I actually succeeded at once.

One, the one time. And you will remember that forever. You're going to print it out, frame it.

I'm going to make sure I get credit for this.

Like, this is big time. We're gonna clip this episode of the show. You're gonna put it on a DVD, upload it to the cloud. You're gonna make sure that you have it every year. You and your wife can watch it together. It's gonna—

Remember that time I sent you a text when I was an hour late? Be a good guy. Okay.

Okay. So we're getting to the end. I wanted to ask a couple of other questions before we get to the final boss here. How do you explain to your kids what you do for a living? And has that kind of changed as they've gotten older? Like, do they understand it better or worse? I guess.

They don't really care is what I would say. Like, they don't ask me anymore, like, what do you do? When I was in a full-time role, you know, they would know the company that I worked at. Like, they know Coursera where I'd worked. They know Opendoor where I worked. They obviously know Netflix too well. Where I worked. And that was one thing, like they could just say, my dad works here.

Yeah.

And I know what that company does. And that's like a one level of understanding. Dad has a job. Dad does something at this company. The next level, you know, I work in product. So the basic way I describe that is all the ways in which you interact with Netflix. Those are things that, you know, Myself and the team built. And they're like, oh, okay. Yeah, I kind of can understand that. They understand it very conceptually, but they haven't really asked, what exactly do you do? You know, I'll even startup equity. I was talking about with my daughter and she's like, so you own the company? And it's like, well, not no, but yes, sort of. And she's like, okay. Yeah, you own the company. Okay. I get it. All right, fine. Yeah, I own the company. It's good. I own all these companies. I'm— I am Elon Musk. It's all good.

That would only be if you were the CEO of like 12 companies.

Exactly.

Your daughter's desire to, to understand ends at a certain point, and that point is very early in the journey.

Dad's boring. You know, we can do it.

Moving on.

That sounds boring. Moving on.

What's something And maybe this has changed over time as your kids get older, but what's something that you realized you had to give up to become a father?

I mean, golf.

You used to be a golfer?

No, I, this was an easy one to give up. Now I just have an excuse to go, ah, I can't golf. I don't have time. No, but I think more broadly that, that, you know, you have a lot of hobbies or things that you do pre-kids that you can't do all of them. So you have to be more choosy. You have to pick some stuff.

Yeah.

And you can still do things, but you have to pick some stuff.

That's one.

I'd say I was— your friends change. I had fallen away. You don't give up any friends, but you move. You either move physically or you move your stage of life. And if your friends that you've grown up with or that you went to college with or whatever, aren't also in the same location or in the same stage of life, it's really hard to be on a day-to-day basis with them. It's not that you don't talk to them or see them, but you might catch up with them on a yearly basis and it feels like old times, but it's not day-to-day. So I think that you sort of, I don't know if you give up parts of your relationships in some way, but you can't have them all and it doesn't make sense to have them all. You got to invest where you are and with your family and with your kids. And then there's certain other friends that you develop that are at the same stage as you. So those evolve, I'd say. There's a whole bunch of like, I want to go to sleep at a certain time, but I can't. I've got to stay up to— well, when the kids are young, you just literally have to stay up. When the kids are older, you just literally can't fall asleep because you're like, are they coming home? What are they doing? Or you have to go pick them up and drive them home. You're like, let's get you at 9:30. And they're like, how about 10? Or how about 11? And then you're like, how about 10? And they're like, how about 10:30? And you're like, 10:15. Sold. We'll go with that.

Sold.

Yeah. You give up a little bit of that. So there's a whole bunch of stuff and I don't really Look at it as giving up though, because you're gaining so much. There's another human that you get to have a relationship with for the rest of your life and like help steer and guide them and see them grow up. And you, like I was saying earlier, like your heart kind of is in their body, but you don't get to move the parts of the body and like control it. That's a very unique experience and it's very rewarding and it's probably the most interesting, hardest thing you do in your entire life. So to even think about like, yeah, I gave stuff up, but would you do it again? In a heartbeat. Absolutely.

Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, it's rapid-fire time. I have a list of questions. I am going to run through those questions very rapidly, hence the name. And I'm going to ask those questions, and if you can respond with the first thing that comes to mind, that would be fantastic. So, are you ready, Tom? Here we go. I'm ready. I accept the challenge. Okay, first question: how many dad jokes do you tell on average each day?

8.

Okay, what is the worst dad joke that you know?

Okay. So I have this pack of dad joke cards. It's a really big pack.

Clearly.

Look at that. I mean, there's a lot there. So I just pull this up. What do you call a husky on the equator?

I don't know.

A hot dog.

That is a pretty bad one.

That's pretty bad.

That's pretty bad. That's bad. I'm going to, I'm going to keep that one in the back of my mind. What is the most indispensable parenting product you have ever purchased?

So when my daughter was young, she had— I talked about this earlier, but she had trouble sleeping. And in a moment of desperation, at some point I got on Google and searched for sleep experts, and we found a sleep expert who lived in Marin, and we probably did 10 video calls with her coaching us how to get her to sleep for long intervals. It was purely life-changing.

Wow.

You know, we went from no one sleeping to everyone sleeping, and that like makes such a huge difference. That was instrumental.

Sleep coach. Love that.

Sleep expert.

Love that.

Sleep coach.

What is the most useless parenting product you've ever purchased?

None of these are parenting products, but like a cell phone for my kids. Can I name that? Well, I mean, Come on. Like, can we just as parents get together and ban these until they're 18? Because the way it works is one kid gets one and then all the kids get one because how are you going to be the only one that doesn't have a phone? And you also think like, well, they need to be able to communicate with me. Well, when I was a kid, I didn't have a phone and I was just fine. So phone.

Do they both have phones? And how old were they when they got them?

They both have phones. Middle school, 6th grade-ish, somewhere around there.

What are the favorite ages for your kids?

So, I think 6 to 12 is like sweet spot.

Okay.

And it might go a little younger, could go at 4, could go a little bit older. That age, they think you're so amazing. They're like, you're their hero. They'll hold your hand walking down the street. You know, they'll say, Dad, I love you, and give you a hug. You're very involved. They're going to— everything they do, they want to tell you about. Immediately. And then somewhere around 12, maybe it's 11, you know, or maybe it's 14, it's somewhere around there, that totally shifts.

Yeah.

And you're probably in this like stage where it's just like, stay relevant and don't like lose contact until they're about somewhere around 18 to 21. And then around that age, again, you can Kind of pick it up again. Yeah, like, they're like, oh, all the things you said were actually pretty interesting and probably right. But you're, you know, now it's like, I'm in this phase now where it's like, this is probably the harder phase.

Ooh, okay. What is the least favorite age so far for you?

Like, 0 to 1.

Yeah, a lot of people have said that.

Neither my wife nor I are baby people. Some people, it's like Oh, babies, let me do everything with a baby. And we're like, now we're good. Can they just get bigger?

All right, screen time. Good, bad, indifferent?

Like, I'd say this a lot with things, I'm like, it's hard to go backwards, but I don't necessarily like the direct— like, the going forward. And feel the same about phones. It's kind of inevitable and it's a hard thing to teach someone to be responsible with a screen because it's like literally the most amazing thing that's ever existed in the whole world. It's like, I've got this thing in my pocket that can play the most amazing games that you've ever experienced and they're so good.

Yeah.

And all the social media is so good that it's hard to say, stop doing that. And you're like, but I don't want it. It's so good. So I would say I'm more in the bad camp than I am good or indifferent, but I don't know how to go backwards on it. And it's more like just try to teach them through it that, yeah, these are really good and they're amazing devices, but they're also so good that you need to temper, you know, how much you use it. And you need to think about that.

Yeah. What is the most embarrassing thing you have ever done in front of your kids?

Man, there's so, there's probably so many dad jokes for sure. I tried to grow a mustache. I can't grow facial hair. I have a little bit. This is like 8 months of growth for me.

Yeah. So I, oh, you're a real mountain man, Tom.

I know. Exactly. During COVID I tried to grow like a goatee. Then I tried to grow a mustache. That was super embarrassing for everyone, myself included. I'm an avid tank top wearer.

Oh. Nice.

Not like the white ones, right? I'm stylish in my tank tops, but I, you know, when the sun's out, guns out. Yeah. And I will wear the tank top and the big straw hat, you know, around. And I'm pretty confident that's fairly embarrassing for everyone. Oh yeah.

Love a good dad tank. That's great.

Oh yeah.

What is the most absurd thing your kid has ever asked you to buy for them?

I don't know how absurd this is. My daughter wants a, uh, for her car. So she's 14. So she's talking about, which I actually really appreciate this. A lot of kids aren't driving right away.

Yeah.

First of all, she said, when I drive, I'm going to have everyone wear a helmet. And I'm like, interesting idea, but I don't know about that. She wants like a turquoise Jeep Wrangler and With the eyelashes on the lights. And I'm like, okay, that's just hilarious.

That's awesome. I love that. What is your secret most favorite Pixar or Disney movie?

Oh, I forgot the name of it. I already forgot again. I asked you earlier.

Inside Out. Inside Out.

Inside Out. Yeah. So Inside Out, it's— I'm not a crier. Like, I think the My wife has seen me cry one time in our entire relationship, and it was when we moved from Chicago to the Bay Area. And it was strange. I don't even know where it came from. I just started tearing. And it was one of those like, wow, life's changing, blah, blah, blah type things. But that movie Inside Out, when I watched, I was on a plane alone, and it was one of those like, don't look at me, you know, just let it go. And it was something about The story, I think, hit home for me in a lot of ways. It's about a girl who moves to San Francisco. She's about the age where my daughter was at the time. Yeah. And just all the life things that they go through and how they have to navigate it. It was, I thought it was such a well-done movie, so I'm a big fan.

You know, I was in that same boat and mine, the scene in that movie that really got me was the memory of not sort of scoring the goal in the hockey game and the parents coming up and consoling her and the sadness. Because I'm an ice hockey player. And so that one was like, oh man, this hits home. And then also the whole, you know, moving from the Midwest to the Bay Area. That's the thing. You live that experience. Okay. 3 more for you. How good are you at assembling toys and what is your worst experience in doing so?

My wife's way handier than I am. She's got all the talent, so literally she'll do house stuff.

Same.

I will just look at it and be like, that's interesting. So I'm not very good. We did buy one of these Springfree trampolines. I don't know if you've seen these. They've got this rod system that goes up and the rods are pressurized like crazy. They're like, because you obviously have to make the bounce go. And we got one of these for our kids. It's now gone, but when, for Christmas time and We were assembling it at night before they woke up in the morning to, to run out and be like, trampoline! Oh my gosh, it's amazing. And that was a crazy experience. It was very difficult. And each of those rods, you have to like put your entire body weight to get it into the little pocket to sit it in there.

Wow.

And one of them slipped out and it went flying into our neighbor's yard. Luckily it didn't hit anything. 'Cause it would've just shot through a wall.

Oh God.

And it was so pressurized that it probably would've gone right through me.

Oh.

We saw smoke. That's how like hard of an impact.

Wow.

It was like crazy.

Wow. That is, that's a story. Yeah. Thankfully no injuries.

No one was injured at the assembly of that.

That's good. Okay. 2 more. What is your favorite terrible dad movie?

Gosh, I don't know that I have one, but I just saw Bridesmaids for the first time.

Oh, life-changing.

Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I had a friend recommend this to me. He's like, oh my gosh, I can't believe you haven't seen it. And my wife and I watched it. I taped it. She's a laugher. She'll laugh uncontrollably. I've gone to the movie theater with her and it's like, people will turn around and I'm like, it's her.

That's her.

It's not me. It's her. I have a video of her. That movie is so funny. The scene where they have a meal and then they go try on dresses. Priceless. So great. It's not a dad movie, but it is a, you know, I don't know, it's adjacent.

It's an adjacent dad adjacent. Yeah. How often do you tell your kids back in my day stories?

I mean, you have to. This is a, this is a require— when you're in the dad club, this is a requirement. You have to do this at least once a day. At least. There must be, you know, because You know, back in my day, my parents didn't pick me up.

I walked.

I didn't get a ride to school. You know, I rode the bus and walked with my friends. And back in my day, I didn't have a cell phone. You know, so yeah, there's a lot of back in my days because, you know, that's what kids love to hear. That's exactly— they learn a lot from that.

It's a rite of passage. It feels like it's like paying it forward from previous generations of back in my day stories. Okay, Tom, thank you very much for being on Startup Dad today. This has been fantastic. I really enjoyed it, and I will talk to you soon. Thank you for listening to today's conversation with Tom Willerer. If you enjoyed the show today, please subscribe, share, and leave me a review. It'll help other people find this podcast. Startup Dad is a Fishman AF production with editing support from Tommy Herron. You can You can also stay up to date on my thoughts on growth, product, and parenting by subscribing to the Fishman AF newsletter at www.fishmanafnewsletter.com. Thanks for listening. See you next week.