E48: Why $1–5M ARR Is the Most Dangerous (and Fun)

Founders just fall in love with their vision because that's why they raise money. They have to be passionate. But after the zero to one, I request the founders, please don't be in love with your product. Listen to the customer on what they're saying. Analyze the losses more than the wins.

Welcome to the High Performance Podcast. My guest today is Kanika Pandey, and Kanika is currently the VP of Sales at Loadmill, and she's in the process of moving to the US and has an amazing story. I have been a fan and a follower of Kanika for many years. We first met when she was at Applitool building out yet another company in the region, and she's part of the founding team of Loadmill. And I've also been following her journey, which she shares around Weightlifting. She's an author. So there is so much that we need to unpack. Kanika, thank you for joining me.

Thank you for having me, Pri. This is something that I have manifested because when I saw some of your podcasts, I was like, I hope that one day I get to speak to Pri on his podcast. So I have made this happen.

Fantastic. Fantastic. So I'm gonna jump right in. to your current journey, because I want to get an insight. Like, you have been part of multiple startups and in that early build phase. So what are some of your biggest takeaways from building these sales engines really from the ground up that you are using now at LoadMill?

I think it's a very deep question to unpack. quickly on a podcast, but I will try and drop some of the gems from my life experiences. And again, I never thought that I will be here. Never. It all started from just not being happy with what I was doing.

Yeah.

So the first thing I want to admit is that I, I think the This innate habit I have of being the best of my human potential. I just want to get better. If I am not getting better every day, I start having doubts about myself, which is really what got me here. In the process of exploring and unpacking Kanika's potential, I got to the land of startups. It happened with an Israeli startup called Perfecto. And then you spoke about Applitools, which was an incredible journey of building it out in Asia. I was recently at Testing Talks, and I had so many sales leaders of other testing startups who were once a part of Applitools, and I had hired them, walk to me almost like I was mother of test automation. Hey, Kanika got me here. Kanika got me here. And it was like, it was an incredible experience, and I actually thank Like God and all the founders who gave me that opportunity to build these amazing companies out in the region. Now, back to your question. Out of one of those journeys happens to be a startup called Hypertest. And Hypertest happened because I was very impressed with the founder, Shailendra Singh. I just wanted to work with that guy. I just thought he was incredible. And a lot of times, if you understand what early stage is all about, it's about people. It's about whom you want to build with and what are you building. So I've started building something with, rather, Shailene was building something and I joined him because he did not have the enterprise sales experience. And I just suddenly realized that he is still building the product. So I joined him in trying to get his product tested out really quickly in the market. I had never done that. Like, I had never done that journey. I had done it for my startup, but I had never helped another founder. It was incredibly challenging because founders are very opinionated, and it was like incredibly hard, and we would have debates on most things, which honestly I feel I learned so much out of. And Shailendra is still building out Hypertest, and I think he is an incredible founder, and I left him behind the process, which I hope that he'll be able to use when the product is ready. But in my journey of startups, the journey of Hypertest and the journey of LoadMill today are so connected. Like, when I got a call from the investor, hey, there's a startup, we would love to talk to you, Kanika. I was like, what's the name of the startup? And it was like, they said LoadMill. And I looked at the website and I went, this is Hypertest 2.0. Like, this is that whole thing again. So basically both the companies were trying to solve the same problem. One a little behind in product market fit and one a lot ahead in their product market fit. And every fight I had with Sharif and every battle that we debated on became my experience now here, because now it's almost, sometimes you say in a startup, I wish someone gave me a magical glass that I could look in the future, I had that because I had seen what it would be to take some of those decisions. So again, it's a journey of exploring yourself and reaching a place which just comes out of hard work. It comes out of real hard work. So with LoadMill, we have a product, a founder who already did the zero to one. He's got case studies, he's got references, and I'm scaling the team up. Some things don't change. You still set up the process. As the early-stage VP, what you're really trying to do is give a playbook. That's really what you do. But the biggest difference is, in some journeys, you look for signals. You look, this is a product, this is a signal. Is this right? Should we build another feature? Should we change something? That's one part of the journey, and it's very different from selling a mature product. Like, the guys who sell Salesforce can't even understand this because this is a very different ballgame. But like with LoadMill, it's not signals. It's now more, okay, you have a mature product.

Yeah.

What's the story? And in the space of AI today, Pri, the story changes every day.

Yeah.

We were in this conference, the same conference. When I had joined LoadMill, there were 300 native AI companies doing testing. Today there are 750. And we are just talking about 6 months. So it's like, how do you, how do you evolve your message in this extremely competitive market? And how do you still make yourself visible is the role of the early stage VP. And I just think that all the dots of my journey, all the choices I made, which you, you know, have watched, everyone has watched over LinkedIn saying, What a crazy, what's going on over here? All those choices are really the gems in my experience that I can bring out. And sometimes I feel the universe is so powerful, like everything I went through before had a reason and I can see why.

Okay. That's, that's interesting. I've got a whole bunch of questions, but let's move to the next question that I've been wanting to ask you. So you said that the $1 to $5 million revenue stage is where you're strongest. What makes this phase so unique and what are the mistakes that founders often make at this stage?

Okay, so let me start by first saying that the $0 to $1, right? The, not $1 to $5, the $0 to $1. Should be founder-led. After my boss was selling, definitely, I'm extremely opinionated on that one. 0 to 1 has to be led by the founder. There's too much that goes on for you to have a VP sales. 1 to 5—

5.

Shouldn't have the founder because there is an illusion of repeatability that founders have. They feel that what they did to get to the first 10 to 15 or even the 20 or 25, depending on the average deal value, they can repeat that and they look for the same patterns. But you go and ask any early stage investor, those patterns are never the same. What it takes to do 0 to 1 and what it takes to do the repeatability of the process is very different. You're looking for repeatability in ICP. A lot of times the first few customers buy into the founder's vision. They just buy into the passion of the person. Like when I was running Modern Health, my first customer was Infosys. Do you think I would be able to repeat that? No, of course not. So the illusion that founders have is the biggest challenge with zero to one, and that's the reason why You need an early-stage VP to do that. And why do we, why do I think, firstly, let's just talk about what does that person do? So the person, this early-stage VP, is creating the playbook for the founder. It is also building the first founding sales team. So you are hiring the first AE, the first SDR, the first SE. These are not easy, and you do this better than anyone else, Priya, so you know that these are hard to find. And to find these for your specific niche and to find these that'll come and like immediately start cranking is extremely hard. And in combination with that, you have to keep the wheels running. It means someone who's a hustler, someone who doesn't give up, someone who has deep understanding of how Technology solves a customer problem and how to be able to listen to the customer then, and then connect back to the sales process. And that's where I feel that the magic of 1 to 5 or the scale is something that I'm in awe of. Like, I just absolutely love it.

That's phenomenal. And I really like the Clarity with which you have articulated it, because just yesterday I was talking to the CEO of a health tech company who, they're very much in that zero-to-one phase and they were trying to figure some things out. And what you've said, I'm sure they'll be one of the first few people listening to this. Very good. Let's rewind a little bit. I wanna rewind with you before we go forward.

Yeah.

I've seen you Obviously, as we've gotten to know each other, we've had multiple conversations. You've come across as someone who is very self-aware and you've described yourself as someone who has truly discovered who you are. And so I want to know what triggered that self-awareness. How has that changed how you live, work, lead? Tell me a little bit more about that.

Yes. And I would be sharing some things in the podcast that a lot of people don't know on LinkedIn. So I'm, and I'm acutely aware that these may be hard for people to understand, but not everyone's life can be understood from, from a podcast. So let me just start by, by Kanika, where she was born. Like I grew up in, in Dehradun in India, in a little mountain town, which was very academic in, in, in nature. Like I, My dad just wanted me to get the highest marks in class and like he always, I had to win all the debates. If I ever came second, it was not allowed. So for me, wow, chasing goals was what I grew up on and I kept chasing goals. But, and I said to you, Priya, I never understood why I chase all these goals, but they feel immaterial after some time. At the age of 29, straight out of Indian School of Business, I got a job at Google. For anyone at that age, you would be, I have arrived in this world, which is what a lot of my friends sent me as a message. But I asked myself, is this what success looks like? Is this what happiness looks like? Is selling media what I want? And I kept chasing those answers. To the point, like, not a lot of people understood what's wrong with her, but I just kept chasing because I did not think that's what I wanted to do. So those questions really led me to not compromising and trying to figure out what this thing inside is all about, what keeps me moving. And then, as I said, one thing led to the other and I ended up leaving a great opportunity at AWS to start my own company called Modern Health with zero founding experience. And I think Modern Health sort of could— a lot of CIOs who know me really well say, this was your midlife crisis. That's where you didn't know what was going on. I think Modern Health was where I really understood myself. I really understood what I'm not good at. It also got me to a point where I thought, because I couldn't raise money, I thought I failed. So I left and I went back to India to raise money. I lost my mother when I was in India.

Sorry to hear that.

And it was, she was the biggest pillar of strength and that now again shook a lot of things in the foundation of Kanika who was trying to figure herself out. But I kept hustling. I remember when I lost mom in the hospital, I called Shailendra. I was with Hypertest at that time, and I said, I've just lost mom, but you should believe that I'm an incredible professional and I will continue to do what is needed and I'll be back to work in a week. And he said, you don't have to worry about it. And he hung up. He didn't know what to say. And I continued to work. But somewhere deep within, there was a hustle going on because I hadn't really understood why I'm doing what I'm doing. So I had a stroke in the beginning of this year, a TIA or a mini stroke, which basically is your body's signal that something needs to change. And I started connecting all the dots back again. And what stroke should give to others, I don't know if it gave to me or not. Didn't give me fear. It didn't give me fear of life. It freed me from everything. I live each day with so much clarity of mind and conviction that I have never had. I don't second guess my choices. I live every day to the fullest. I enjoy what I do. I remember when I had the stroke. My very dear friend who runs Infosys Consulting for all of Asia Pacific said, Kanika, listen, you had a stroke. I'll give you a stable consulting gig. This is what you need at this time. You don't need a startup. I asked myself, what do you want to do, Kanika? And Kanika said from inside, if you have only one more day to live, you go and live your dream. And I went and joined Lordmill. And the difference between the Kanika before the stroke and after the stroke is that I don't second guess my decisions.

Amazing.

I don't, I come out with absolute truth, honesty, and I don't doubt what I am saying. And somehow death has all of a sudden changed everything for me. It's, and maybe it is not the way people look at me, it's just the way I look at myself. And I feel I am making more sense, I'm more authentic, and the world around me understands a lot more. But it had to take a little flip inside. They say that death is the price for heaven. You, you have to go through something to come out stronger. And I'm not saying, if anyone's read my book, I've seen enough in my life. But to see yourself in a stroke ward for 2 nights is a life-changing experience. I don't wish this to anyone, but what you get out of that is not that I will die, but what is the life you want to live?

Yeah.

And the life I want to live is a life of clarity.

Decision—

decisions I make, they may work, they may not work. I remember when I joined LoadMill, everyone said test automation, really risky. AI, it may work, it may not work, but what will work is that Kanika will be happy. And honestly, I don't wish anyone has to go through the experiences I have gone through because I think it takes a lot of work to grow. Growth doesn't come without deep work. You have to do that inner work to find yourself. So yes, I'm acutely self-aware today. Nothing can shake me, but that hasn't come easy, Pri. It hasn't come with, I wouldn't say I sat and like I saw God. It didn't happen. I did see God eventually. Like I can see clarity, but it had to take a lot of work.

Understood. That's, I can sense. That, as you have told me about a lot more in terms of where you're going, where you've come from, some of the difficult situations that you've had to navigate, I guess that's really where your clarity and strength comes from. Tell me, weightlifting is a big part of your life.

Yes.

How has that influenced your Your mindset, resilience, because obviously in one physical sense, it's lifting heavy things, but also in the context of work, you gotta do hard things. Like you said, you could have gone and done a comfortable consulting job at Infosys, but you've chosen to come to LoadMate. You're moving to the US as part of building this. So tell me a little bit more about the weightlifting and the connection and how that has changed you.

So weightlifting saved me physically, emotionally, mentally. That's what weightlifting is for me. It's not just a hobby. Like I remember when I was in Tel Aviv meeting the investor for Loadmill and the founder was there as well. He asked me, so what did you do in Tel Aviv? And Ido shared with the investor, she went and trained. She went and trained. So he looked at me, he looked at me and said, you're an addict. Like, I don't know. I don't know how to answer that question. For me, it's my mindset. It gives me the discipline I need. Even after all the injuries and everything that I have had in my life, and as a weightlifter, you have a lot of injury. The sport has given me so much of backbone. The barbell is not going to move on its own. You got to go there and lift it. Whether you are tired, whether you are on 5 hours of sleep, it doesn't matter. You have to go and lift it. You change how much you can lift on that day. You change your approach, but that's what the barbell told me. The Baba also taught me one important lesson, Pri, and I say this to anyone watching this. It really doesn't matter what you achieve, what I achieve in life. We will all go one day. What is going to remain is what you become in the process of living this life. Kanika was a 64-kilo teeny-weeny girl, and I take a lot of space now. Like, I have 12 kilos of muscle. And I feel empowered when I lift. And when I was at Testing Talks at the event, there was not a single woman tester that had seen me or her husband had seen my videos who didn't come and tell me that you inspire me. And I did not do it for, to inspire them. I just did it because it worked for me. So that's what weightlifting is for me. But I'll also tell you another thing, going back to the questions that we ask ourselves and that remain unanswered, right? I was in Oxford working for DiffBlue. I loved the summer at summer in Oxford, and I was, it was a really happy day and I went lifting and I snatched 45 kilos above my head, which was at one stage my lifetime goal. And snatching is one of the hardest lifts. in Olympic weightlifting. I sent a text to my coach, and I'm very lucky to have the best coach in Australia coaching me. I chased him for 2 years. That comes out of my sales hustle and my DNA. So I chased him for 2 years. Anyway, I sent him a text. I don't think this would've happened to— thanks for believing in me. That's what I said. I still remember his response. He says, this would not have happened if you didn't believe in yourself. So my coach, my community, my sport really gave me the clarity and the courage to lead with conviction, to go out there and do what is right without second-guessing yourself, because you can't second-guess yourself in front of the barbell. Either it goes up or it doesn't.

Absolutely. As someone who lifts as well, I I love the analogy and the realization that you've achieved through that, and it comes through very clearly. As we wrap up, I've got one or two quick questions. I am, I have a daughter who's 14. I have my mom's past. She's, she was a surgeon, but I've had some very towering inspirational women in my life. Like you have as well. But I noticed that in the SaaS world, the women in general as account executives are about 15% of the total workforce, leave alone women who are leaders. So actually we are kicking off an initiative to empower more women in that space because that's something that's so fundamental to me. But I wanted to get your Quick take on what is, what advice would you give to other people who are navigating this path? Because hearing that from you would mean a lot more than hearing it from me, of course.

Yeah, absolutely. And this is a great question. So I have a great mentor. His name is Eran Yaniv. He was the CEO of Perfecto. Once he said to me, why there are no great women founders? You know what? Because there are not great role models. Because everyone chases role models. You have a role model. He gave me an example. He said, in Israel, nobody knew the sport judo till there was someone who went and won a medal in judo. And then judo became a sport that everyone wanted to do.

Wow.

There are not enough women chasing it because there are not enough women role models. And What I would like to say through your medium, Pri, early stage selling is for women. It's all about trust generation. You are not selling features. The early stage product doesn't have enough features to compete with the late stage product. You are selling vision. You're building trust. You're building people around your energy. Who can do it better than a woman? I'm biased, but like— In my view—

Oh, gimme a second. Sorry.

I'll repeat this question. Yes.

No, you did a great job. You did a great job explaining. We'll go again. But yeah, there's, in the industry, there just aren't enough women role models. So how does that change?

I, I will. So I think What we really need to do is get stories like mine out, which you are doing. That is what I was going to say in the end, right?

Yeah.

There are women in the Bay Area, there are women in India, and I have met them, but their stories are not coming out. That's one. The other is, I think, how do you change it is by starting some sort of a way in which people like you yourself can identify more women for roles like these. And especially early-stage VPs, they traditionally don't come to Australia. I had to hunt like for roles like these, but they should come to Australia. Like people like yourself should be able to go to founders, especially Australia. I was gonna talk about this. Australia has an E-3 visa program, which is a fabulous program for Australian saleswomen to go and become early-stage VPs in Y Combinator startups. Or startups that in the Bay Area, because E-3 is a very easy visa for Australians to get. It never gets fulfilled. So those were my talking points. So I was like, we don't have role models. Stories should come out. Women should know that there are many more roles. Australia is a very small ecosystem in general, and it's changing. It's changing very quickly. So those were my points.

That's amazing. And I would encourage anyone who watches this to Find Kanika on LinkedIn and reach out. But there's so much that you've given already. I guess what it would say is that what are some of the mindset shifts that you think in the context of a startup that a founder needs to have, or someone like yourself who's building? What is it, does it take to be able to not only survive, But to succeed and to be able to scale from there.

Actually, this is easy, but my founders that watch this will smile. Please don't be in love with your product. Founders just fall in love with their vision because that's why they raise money. They have to be passionate. But after the zero to one, I request the founders, please don't be in love with your product. Listen to the customer. on what they're saying. Analyze the losses more than the wins. If someone says, wow, what a demo, this is great, pause and ask, what did you like? You never know, someone's taking a piss at you and you're just thinking, wow, I made a great product.

Yeah.

It's incredible. The only, the, if I have to give one thing to founders, one thing to anyone in selling, to be honest, and I learned this over the years is you can't believe everything that is said. You have to question and you have to look for signals. You have to challenge people. You have to find your own truth.

Amazing. Kanika, this has been an absolute delight. I could talk to you for hours, but you have things to do. And this has been both raw and real. And straight from the hip, I appreciate you so much. Thank you for talking to me and I wish you great success and I'm gonna follow your journey.

Yes. Thank you, Priyank. All the best. You know, my only wish is that I hope I see more women doing early stage or even late stage or whatever. And if anyone needs any help, I'm always here.

Thank you. I really appreciate that.

Thank you, Priyank. Bye.

Bye-bye.