The Quiet Strength of Introverted Sales Leaders

There's this misconception that if you're, you know, to be good at sales, you have to be an extrovert and you have to be running around. And I used to try and be that and it just wasn't authentic at all. Over the years, I've understood what strategies I need to use. One being, if there's a moment for a leader to speak instead of me, then I'll let them take the limelight. Coincidentally, it was great for their development, but selfishly, it was helping me deal with I don't know if anxiety is the right word, but it's just an uncomfortable situation for me to be in. And also needed to understand and learn that the more I prepare for whatever situation's coming up, the more comfortable I will feel in that sense.

Fabian Calle is the Managing Director of SAP Concur. He's been with them for 15 years. And today in our conversation, we're going to talk about leading as an introvert, how your personality and values shapes culture. how he manages stress through and the demands that are put on him. And we have some really interesting bits about being a dad and being self-aware around what is required of you at home and at work. And you're going to absolutely love some of the content that is in here. So let's jump right in. Bibin, thank you for joining me today.

Hey, Preet, a pleasure.

Fantastic. So there's so many questions I could ask you, but I think the first one would be just tell me a little bit more about your journey from, you know, your getting into Concur to what is SAP Concur today. I mean, you've had significant innings. So that in itself stands out as an exception in the industry. Tell me a little bit more.

It's my 15-year anniversary this month, Preet. So this is good timing. Great way to start a question. Congratulations or commiserations, whichever way. But no, it's the former. It's definitely congratulations. But look, I started as a sales rep. So, the traditional story, and I'd had a previous business, my own small business. And once I'd sold that, I was taking a little bit of a break and a good friend of mine owned a recruiting agency at the time, suggested I look into a company called Concur. And when I first saw it, I thought, expense management? It doesn't sound very exciting. But what he did is he, for about a month, he said to me, look, just please meet the people. And this is all pertinent to the story. So he said, please meet the people. And when I met the first person, I thought, okay, that was a great experience. I met the second, third. I think I must have met about 8 on the final panel. But every single time I met somebody, I had a great experience. With them and I thought, this is a place that I think I'd like to work at. 15 years later, it's still the same reasons as to why I'm there. I went in as a sales rep, an enterprise sales rep as it was at the time. And from there, I had a player coach role where I was a leader and had my own territory, which I never recommend for anybody to do. And then from then, I took on the full-time leadership role. And as much as I want to say I absolutely earned that role pre, I'm very— I like to think I'm very self-aware, and I feel it might have been a bit of a Steve Bradbury situation where I was the last one there to take that role. So, but then from there, you know, as with any enterprise environment, our business started to evolve into the small to medium business segment. And I was asked to join that group, to lead that group. We had a— I think we had about 2 failed leaders prior to that. And I had zero interest in joining the mid-market. I really loved working enterprise and the largest accounts and the glory that came with that. But a good friend of mine within the business who's now left, Matt Goss, he convinced me and I went and joined and worked with him building a small business in a small business segment for us in Australia. And I took it as rather than looking at individual accounts, I now get to build a business. You know, at that stage, Concur was fairly entrepreneurial. We had a lot of flexibility in that sense, obviously within the confines of a corporate organization, but it was a really great experience as it became to build something new. And selfishly, if it worked, I'd be a superhero. And if it didn't, then I might have come— maybe I would have been speaking to you, Priya, about looking for another job. And that was about 10 years ago. And I've held that role For that segment, even though the segment's grown quite a bit, I've held that role since then. And, you know, I kind of give myself like a 3-year view. Every 3 years, I kind of reassess what my career looks like. Even when I joined Concur, I said I'd give it 3 years. 15 years later, so 5 times that, I'm still here. And this business just kept evolving. It kept evolving. You know, we're still— the core of what we do hasn't changed, but I work with incredible people. You know, I've seen a lot of people come and go. Prior to this, I was actually speaking to a former employee who just left about 2 weeks ago, and he's joining a new organization. And it's, you know, people like that. I think when I look at when people do leave, I've said the same thing to all of them. I really hope you're leaving because you've found something that you want to go towards, not because you're running away from us. Because if it's the latter, then it's never going to last very long, and then we've done something fundamentally wrong. And we may get into this a little bit more through this conversation, but I— The people and empathy and my integrity as a person within that business is probably the most important part that selfishly will build a business for us. So, and now I, now I run what we call SMB for Australia and New Zealand.

Understood. Now that sounds, that sounds really good. You said something in the beginning that really, I think, is a hallmark of why people join people or leave people. And it's about people, values, energy. It's less so about have you sold expense management before, or have you sold to this market segment before. It really comes down to that alignment. And that is something that so often in the industry I find that people want to fit the boxes around. Do they have public sector? Have they sold into enterprise? As against who are, you know, who, who's the person behind this? What, what are the values and what's the personality? So tell me, how have your personal values and your personality influenced your leadership, the culture you create? Because you've, you started talking about that, about, you know, you don't want people to leave, but they want— you want them to go to something that's better. You know, you don't want them to leave Because they're leaving, walk away from, but rather to go towards. So tell me more about your values and your personality and how that's impacted culture.

Yeah, sure. Look, I think when I look at my business, well, let's look at what we're selling. So we sell travel booking, expense management, and accounts payable processing. And this isn't a selling opportunity, but They're not the most exciting things and not what I spoke to my careers counselor about having and forging the rest of my career on. However, I do love what we do for businesses. So, there's an element of that. I do have a natural curiosity to help and discover and really understand people in a sense. It just happens to be through the tools of spend management. But I never really focus on what we're selling. I had full faith. Now, I know that, you know, you mentioned it's not about the products or maybe not even the segments and sectors and things like that, but I had to be confident that we did have a good product. So, that wasn't something that I had to truly worry about. Okay. So, an SAP concurs. The benefit, I'm happy and do believe and trust that we do have the best product that goes towards when I speak to somebody, I can go to them with the right intent, you know, that I'm not trying to sell something that I don't truly believe in because I couldn't do that. My integrity just wouldn't allow me to do that. I think when I look at what my personality traits are like, I like to think I'm quite empathetic. And something I've learned as a leader is that's probably the number one trait. And that's not just about, you know, understanding how someone might feel and being able to relate to them in that sense. But what it does is allows me to understand the message and how I deliver that message to a particular person. And I still think one of the hardest things in leadership, or one of the hardest things in leadership, especially when you're speaking, is how do you stand in front of a group where everyone comes from a completely different organization within that group? They all have their own drivers and personal needs, and you have to say one thing. That everybody understands the way they want to understand it. It's really difficult right now. If I speak to a salesperson, I know exactly how I'm going to speak to that salesperson. If I go to marketing, I have to— there needs to be a completely different shift. And pre-sales and, you know, our interns and things like that, it all needs— but I have— I can only get one chance to say it. Um, so I like to think I'm adaptable. I, I love to learn something new all the time. I, um, I've been doing martial arts for many, many years, and I feel like I'm a beginner all the time, you know, and that's what I love. I love to go into something and think, even at my age, uh, 3, and I've been around for half a century, so, um, it's rare that we get to find— I get to find something that I can start all over again. And I think what I— the one thing I love and I've learned through my leadership, um, and building the culture of the business is I love it when we get new people into the business I love it when we get really young new people into the business. So what I mean by that is, I've been here for 15 years. I know this business very well. Some of these team members are coming in, they're half my age, look at me and think, what are you doing and why are you doing it that way? And I welcome that. I love it. I love that. I don't sit there to think that I know everything. My personality wouldn't even allow me to do that. And what I mean by that is I'm, you know, I'm a self-proclaimed introvert and I've learned that. I've learned over the years of how to manage that. But having the right people around me is— and I know everyone says get people around you that are smarter than you, and that's absolutely true. I never feel like I need to be the smartest person in the room. I never feel like I am. There's a great book by Simon Sinek, Leaders Eat Last, which I think is a great book for leaders to read. But the one thing that I think has allowed us to create a great culture is just that openness. I don't feel like I know more than you. I have an answer for everything you may come to me with. However, I've also learned when not to speak. And at the end of the day, as I mentioned to you earlier and you bounced back, that I want people, if they do leave, to go somewhere. I would never hold somebody back for my own, for my own benefit. If someone needs to leave, I hope they leave. You know, they've got families, we've got our own pressures, they've got their own reasonings for leaving. You hope that they go to a place that might be a little bit different than what, than here, rather than going from us to exactly the same type of business. Maybe it might be for more money, and obviously there are drivers too. But go and do something new. Like, if I was to leave, and at this rate, I hope I never have to, if I was to leave, I wouldn't— I don't think I could go and work in exactly the same thing that we're doing today. I think that I've built a skill set that can apply to other businesses. It doesn't necessarily mean that expense management is the only thing I do. I know it very well. And the people around me are, you know, they're amazing at what they do. And a lot of them do many things much, much better than I do.

Yeah. You talked about, you know, the beginner's mind and it's amazing. I think in my last 5 guests, 3 have talked about martial arts and, you know, how the beginner's mind has been useful. And you talked about it, you know, especially when you see new people coming Into the company. At a personal level, my son has started as an SDR 5 weeks back. And for the first time, we're talking about discovery conversations and objection handling at dinner. And I love it, right? Because his younger siblings are like, what is he on about? But he's talking about how he's handling objections and So it's the joy of discovery and growth and doing something new, right? So tell me, I want to drill a little deeper. You talked about being an introverted leader, right? How do you balance the demands that, or the expectations of those around you? As what they want from the leader and who you are and bring a balance in between your authenticity, the expectations that are placed on you? How does that work?

Yeah, it's a great question. And it's something that I've had to develop and discover for years. Many years ago, no one knew what an introvert and an extrovert was. You know, it's just get out there and get out there. And it's— and I've learned a lot that I've even brought a lot from business that I even see my children now. You know, my oldest son is a heavy introvert, and I recognize some of those traits too. But I think when it first was brought to my attention, it was in the beginning. of Concur after a couple of years, we would get a 360 review. You know, and as you do, you send it to 20, I think it was 22 at the time, of some trusted peers. And a lot of it came back saying that they get a sense from me that I, like, a sense of arrogance. And I couldn't understand why. But what it— and some of the comments that they put in that 360, While it's anonymous, because I'd worked with them for a little while, I knew exactly who wrote what, exactly who wrote it. And one of them, when they said it, I thought I didn't understand why. But then I sat back and I thought, what's it look like when I present myself? And because I was an introvert, what I used to do when I go in the office, I could never just walk in with my hands up in the air and say, hey, I'm here, you know, like high-five everybody. I needed to build into it. So, but what people used to think was that I'd walk in and, but because I didn't say hello straight away or I went and set myself up, got myself comfortable before I went and said hello, it was a sense of chest puffing and arrogance that I don't need to say hello to you. And so, I changed that. I had to change it, but it's not natural for me to do that. So, I had to find mechanisms and processes and strategies, whatever buzzword you want to put it, in order to build myself up for that. So, you know, I'm big into health and exercise, and I had to shift when I did that. So, I started doing that a lot in the morning so that I could have that time in the morning, which is just me working through whatever thoughts, if I had any thoughts, and while also being healthy. That allowed me to build my energy up to, or build my battery, my social battery up, that I could then go and do that. And then made it, made a conscious effort that I need to step outside my comfort zone. order to do that. And it made a big difference. You know, I now walk in and it's, you know, cuddles for everybody. And if I've just met you and you've just started, it's just a handshake. That's okay. You know, but so there's a little bit of that. But I think the thing I find most difficult is standing up in front of a big group and talking. As an introvert, I want to bring in and understand what people are talking about. I want to hear what people are saying and then I can interject. And around people that I'm comfortable with, I'm, you know, I can talk quite a bit. But when you're a leader, I have to do all of that first. So, I went through a whole process to understand what that was about, learning about being an introvert. And there's this misconception that if you're, you know, to be good at sales, you have to be an extrovert and you have to be running around. And I used to try and be that. And it just wasn't authentic at all. So, I, over the years, have understood what strategies I need to use, one being if there's a moment for a leader to speak instead of me, then I'll let them take the limelight. Coincidentally, it's great for their development. But selfishly, it was helping me deal with— I don't know if anxiety is the right word, but it's just an uncomfortable situation for me to be in. And I also needed to understand and learn that the more I prepare for whatever situation's coming up, the more comfortable I will feel in that sense. But I think the challenge with that too is I could, look, I could easily sit and not talk to anyone for a whole day, do my work, let the work be my performance, You know, there's 2 types of people, Priya, as I'm sure you'd know. When an opportunity comes about, there are those that put their hand up and say, I want it. You know, there are— and then there's the other ones that sit there and go, well, um, I know that what I'm presenting and the hard work that I'm doing will get noticed. You know, and sometimes that can be good. Sometimes you can fall back on, on the latter. Um, so I, I needed to learn those things about myself. But once I understood that, I'm okay. There are some times when I, um, Also know that the silence that I have can be uncomfortable for people. You know, there's— we had a leadership strategy session last week, and, um, we— some of the things that we talked about, just even some of the finer things like, um, our CSR responsibility, you know, how do we present ourselves in the office, we even talk about little things like that. Um, one of my, um, one of the leaders said, uh, we'd love to see you a bit more. Something as tiny as that. So, it's that that I'm still learning and I understand it. But there are moments when I think this is not the right time to sort of pull back. I need to get out in front of people and have, especially when we have new people, they get caught up in my title. And I don't know if I should tell my leaders this. I think the title means nothing to me. you know, but they see a title and they're, wow, you know, he's got this managing director and there's this aura or something about that. So when they see me a little bit quiet, they're, they're never going to come up and approach me. So I've had to learn a lot of what that means. And I didn't really start doing any of that until my 40s, to be honest.

Yeah, I am. I relate to so much of what you've just said because I think that Somewhere along the journey, you've got to go beyond the labels or the titles that people have to the people that are behind the labels and the titles. And it's people, and you've just got to get to know people. You know, I easily have 20 conversations a day with many different people with many different labels, but it's always looking beyond the label into the person. One of the things that I've noticed, you talked about extroversion and introversion. I feel like we're at a time in popular history where extroversion gets a bit more of the limelight, so as to speak, whereas introversion is something that is mentioned more softly. And I came across this book really, which was talking about the lost art of introversion. Because the greatest shifts on the planet in terms of inventions and discoveries and things that have benefited the human race have actually come from introverts who've spent the time to think and reflect and to create and to produce. And, um, the extroverts may have gone and done other things with it, but, um, I think that there's a rebalancing in terms of, you know, popular culture that is, um, so necessary.

Yeah, I read this little quote the other day and it said, uh, you know, everyone tells an introvert they need to get out and speak more, but no one tells an introvert to I won't say it. But I even think about how some people and parents are with their children. It's like, get out there. I want to push them out into the crowd. As an introvert, that's the worst thing ever. And it doesn't do anything for our development at all. When I look at even my son, there'll be moments when we're in a— even if we have people over for a little while, he needs to go off and have a bit of a break. And that's okay. I understand that. You know, I do the same. Now, I'm giving away all my secrets. When we have big events, you know, and especially when we have to travel for these events, you know, and the Australians are here and they're the flavor of— and everyone's pushing and pulling and everyone wants to have a conversation, which is amazing in itself. But over a certain period of time, I step away. Even if it's just for 10 minutes, I step away. There's been times I've gone back to the room. If I had needed to go to the toilet, I'll go to my room because it's the furthest one that I could find just to get some energy to come back and then do it all again. Whereas in the past, I would have pushed and pushed and pushed and then not enjoyed it and not enjoyed it. What I did find even more interesting is no one even realized I was gone half the time.

Right.

But they're the things that I've learned over time, and I'm more than comfortable now to speak about it, to be honest, that I understand those things. Even with martial arts, you're walking into a room and there's just lots of people there. And while I'm very comfortable once I'm there, and it doesn't take very long, there's just that initial feeling that I recognize. So, there's an initial feeling of— it's not anxiety. Maybe it is a little bit of anxiety. You know, not sure why, but there's that little feeling that I recognize. I think that there it is, and then I manage it that way, as opposed to I just need to be something that I'm not. And then I have to also appreciate that there are people around me that may want to talk even when I don't want to. So, it's just learning that management of, you know, and sometimes I think, well, I need to do this because it's a short period of time and it's very beneficial for the person I'm engaging with. But I then recognize it after that, and I put it in my diary too, uh, Priya, that if I have back-to-back-to-back meetings, I go and put in a 15 or 20-minute break in there. And sometimes they're literally in this seat. I will sit there and breathe. I've been breathing. Cool. And then I can give my best. But if I just go back to back without a break sometimes, and then I'm not really— I don't feel like I'm giving my best. I lose concentration. I start thinking about when is this going to end. Um, So, it's a lot. And I recognize that in a lot of people that I manage, who I speak to. And if they are extroverts, I use them and they use me, you know, to balance out those parts of our personality that we're missing. You know, there's an introvert in every extrovert and there's a bit of an extrovert in every introvert. It just depends on the environment we're in. That's all.

That is so true. That is so true. I think somewhere in between of your developmental journey, you end up finding you're probably a bit more of an ambivert where you've got extroversion and introversion and you've had to balance out one or the other to meet the needs of the world while staying, you know, managing your own energy. So let me ask you this question. Oh, you know, it's very easy and you, you, you're very, you know, you're very grounded. You're very self-aware. You know, you've made plenty of, you know, I won't say jokes, but you kind of wear it lightly about the need to disengage and have a little time to recharge. Tell me, what are some of the strengths you have found in needing that quiet place, in needing that solitude, in Finding that which is your natural tilt of energy and recharging, how has that helped you be more aware, be more sensitive? You know, how is that? Tell me a little bit more about that.

Yeah. Well, without being too personal, the way I interact with my eldest son because he's a heavy introvert has helped a lot in the way we communicate and knowing that he needs his space and there isn't the pressure. And there's difference in giving— making pressure for them to be their best self, but there's also a time when you need to step away and give them that space. In a professional sense, I tend to recognize some of that in the people that I work with, whether they're extroverts or introverts. And I'll use that when I need to call out somebody You know, if depending on the type of message I'm getting across, you know, and I know there's some introverts in my team, I wouldn't call them out. This is a very basic example. I wouldn't call them out first. I give them time to be able to absorb some of the things that we're saying. But they also come sometimes with the best insight because they've had the time to absorb, think about what they're going to say. And then say it. And that's not to say that extroverts don't think before they speak, because they absolutely do. I think the difference is they work at a pace far greater than an introvert. You know, and I don't want to label this person's better than that, because it's not. I've had people come through my business and they're amazing, absolutely amazing. And when you sit them down, they're the complete opposite. And yet they do exactly the same role. But they bring along their authentic self to be successful in that sense. But I think it's just allowed me as an introvert to have that patience to listen to the people that I work with and my customers and my prospects before I come back with an answer. And as I say, I always get it right. And sometimes I don't. I don't also present that right trait at the right time as well. However, just being aware of that, aware of how I'm presenting myself, I will try and align that to the person I'm speaking with, if that makes sense.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I interview sales leaders and salespeople every day for a living, and I've done so for 15 years, and I can tell you for certain, there are— we'll beat up on the extroverts for a moment. There are people who talk too much and don't listen enough. There are people who mistake activity of meeting customers for strategy, but actually really don't have a plan. You know, will take low-hanging fruit and not multi-thread and create a more strategic opportunity. You know, there are people who will build great rapport, but really not do good Discovery and understand what's going on and what's going to actually move this thing, right? There are leaders who have talked so much that they feel like they've pumped people up, but they haven't actually understood why is this person struggling. So I I see the the tremendous strengths of introverted sellers, introverted leaders, and you know truly we are better together with rather than one or the other, right?

Okay. I think, I mean, the thing you mentioned there is, you know, the empathy. And that's not to say that— so, this almost feels like a beat-up on extroverts. It shouldn't be like that. Some of my greatest friends, some of my best friends are extroverts. But we kind of need that too because if there's an introvert, I'd be happy to kind of sit there and not do anything for weekend after weekend, I think, at times. And an extrovert will, you know, get you out. But also, what— I think I've been able to do is find peace in boredom. You know, I'm not— and I don't mean by being lazy, but it's okay not to have to do something, not to feel like I need to do something. And I don't want for people to use that as an excuse to not do anything at all, but it's okay to have gaps, have gaps in the calendar and the social In the social calendar in particular. And I think when I consider the way I approach something, I've just gone about it in a different way because I now understand why I feel the way I feel, why someone may act the way they act. You know, certain behaviors will drive people to do certain things depending on the situation and what's happening in their life and all those sort of things. So, I like to think that I'm a great delegator. I'm just not the best at doing. I love to think I've got all these great ideas even though, to be honest, I take most of those ideas from other people and then probably claim them as my own. But there are other people in the business that allow the business to operate very, very, very well because of their personality trait, which is the complete opposite of mine because if it was left all up to me, it would have fallen apart. So, being able to recognize that too, and I'm very open with people and how I think and how I operate. I mean, people watch this too and they definitely know that I need extroverts in my life personally and professionally, or pre, not a lot would really get done.

Look, last question before we wrap up. How do you manage pressure? How do you— there's the relentless demands of life, work, leadership, at which, if I have understood well, you know, you're very much in your head at times thinking about things. How do you— I love, by the way, what you said about boredom. I think that needs to go up on a wall somewhere, about it's okay not to have something to do. Tell me, how do you deal with pressure? What are some of either your mental mindsets or some of the practices that you do, including boredom, to deal with Stress and pressure.

Yeah. Look, the boredom, taking time away, things like that, that's just my way of— that's how I get energy. I think Simon Sinek— was Simon Sinek? He said an introvert will start the day off with 5 coins. And for every interaction they have, that coin gets taken away. An extrovert will start off with nothing and just collect coins all day. And I, you know, I've used that a few times, but I understand like how many coins I have, right? I've had to do things like even the way I manage my emails, the rules I have within my emails, you know, how much noise that gives me. But the main thing, I think the way I deal with stress and it changes my mood, Regardless of what's happening is, like, is the health and exercise, you know. And I know it's a bit cliché, but one, it gives me time for me. Because I do martial arts, Pri, it's— being in an office with someone getting a little bit angry, it's not really that stressful. I do jiu-jitsu now. When I've got someone who weighs twice as much as me trying to rip my arm off, That's a little stressful. But what it does is it's a great leveler. It's very humbling. It's a very humbling experience to be grappling with somebody who weighs 30 kilos less than me and is folding me up like an envelope. And there's nothing I could do about it. And so, I make a— I do make an effort to be very disciplined to do that. Even though, even at my age, I think every second week I quit. I'm done now. I don't want to do this anymore. But what it does is it does transfer to the patience I have at work, transfers to the patience I have with my children, the patience of sometimes dealing with incompetence. So, I build a lot of my focus around Just being healthy. If I can get good sleep, if I can eat right, if I can at least control that part of me, then I know that when I come to places like work, that I don't have to worry about that. I don't have to worry about being tired. I don't have to worry about being hungry or eating too much or anything like that. So, I don't have to worry about those sort of things. That goes a long, long way. And I really don't know what it'd be like if I wasn't doing any kind of exercise at all. I didn't start jiu-jitsu until I was 43 or 44 years old. I've done a lot of martial arts throughout my life. And I'm always the oldest person in there. It takes me a day or so to recover, whereas some of the younger kids, they're going twice a day, 5 days a week. That gives me heart palpitations. I just couldn't do it. But it does help. It really, really does help with managing my stress. And what I also do is when I sit back and I think about what it is that we're We're doing what we're selling, and put it all into perspective. I like I understand my place, and that's not to say I don't take it seriously. I absolutely do. You know, I can get quite. I don't know if emotional is the right word, but I can get quite pointed because I just want people to be able to do just get the best from what they've got. We're here now. You might as well get the best out of it, you know. Um, and so a lot of that, and to my benefit, pretty— like I said, I'm, um, I'm getting on in age now. I've realized that when I speak to people that are maybe half my age, they don't have my experience. And you can't teach someone experience. They have to go through it. So no matter how I say somebody's going to feel, or how many times you say to someone, if you only knew what it was like to feel good, Then you know that how you are now is not good. But they have to go and feel good to be able to experience it. It doesn't matter how many times I tell them. So, it's a lot of that. I love— I wish I had a real simple, just one-sentence answer. But as you can tell, when I'm comfortable with somebody, I can talk a little bit too much.

Well, you've given me a lot to think about. You've given anyone who's going to be listening to this, and I know people will, just a sense of normalcy, right? In terms of who we are, how we are, how we show up, and just being ourselves because I think that's the greatest gift that we can give to ourselves and give to the world around us.

Yeah. I mean, look, we choose the— I think the thing I like the most out of anybody, if there was one trait that I wish I could look around and say this is this is what I love about that person is just them being authentic. Just be real. If you're not, if you're not a nice person, that's okay. Just be real about being not not being a nice person. If you are a nice person, be that person. Don't talk. I I think if I'm to get if I'm challenged, let's call it that, is when Someone says something that they want to be and they're just not doing that. That's not authentic, you know. And I've got some friends that they're crazy, they're crazy, but they don't claim not to be crazy, you know. And then I've got, you know, some other people I know that claim to be all high and mighty and they're not. I'd take the crazy person any day, any day. So I think that if it could just— that authenticity, and hopefully that's how this comes across I love that more than anything.

Thank you so much. You've been very authentic. I love us being able to talk about both personal and professional because we're not only professional or personal. We are who we are. And I'll close with this thought that we share with my kids occasionally when they say they are sorry and it's a throwaway sorry. don't say sorry, do sorry. Let me see that you're sorry. Don't just say it and walk away. Right. And I think that, you know, it's where actions just need to speak louder than our words and we can come through with that. So, thank you so much.

Yeah, absolutely. Look, I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, Pri, that's for sure. But if people could be very self-aware of those challenges, I think it'll go a long way. But, uh, I've really enjoyed this, mate. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.