Ep.18 | "Five Rules for Miracles"

All right, guys, welcome back to the Lead Fast podcast. I'm your host, Daniel, and here's a guy beside me you may know. May or may not know. Tommy Wofford.

It's weird. I feel like we missed them, but they don't know that we've not done this in two weeks.

Guys, it's been a long. It's been a long time. I've missed podcast. I've missed you guys. I've missed it all. But we've been. We've been.

I mean, you haven't missed me.

Yeah, no, I've missed you. There's times where I miss you. I'll admit it.

I'm.

I'm a man. I can do that.

But we've been. We've been. We've still been together.

Yeah, that's true. But I still missed you.

So just in the afternoons when you.

Go home, let me live my life. Yeah. In the hours from like 5:30 when I get home till 7 when you text, let's play Call of Duty. Those are dark times for me. We don't want to talk about them.

Jeez.

But, no, we've been busy, man. We've been, like. We've gone a lot of places. We've been out of the office a lot.

Lead Fast has been. It's been a busy season for us, and so, man, incredible. Hey, guys. There you are.

Oh, yeah. So we have a new setup.

Yeah, a completely new setup.

Yeah, I know they didn't notice that we had to tell them, but we're. We're in a new place, a new location. We're in the same building, but just. We've moved where we're doing this whole shenanigan at. And we have three cameras now instead of two.

And. And we have an executive producer. McKenzie has now stepped into the role of trying to live produce this chaos.

Let's see your hand, Mackenzie. Show us your hand. There it is. There's McKenzie.

And she switched to the right camera and everything.

The only thing is, I don't know exactly which one to look at, but we'll figure that out.

So top. Top left, so we have a screen, you guys. If you check out our Instagram, you can see the backstage of what we get to look at. I'm gonna take a picture right, and you can. So this is. We've been trying to give you guys more information about what we do and how we do it. And so this is the setup. You can see it on Instagram. And so we have three cameras, and we have a monitor right here in Front of us, and so we can see. So top left is live. Yeah.

Okay.

That's how, you know.

Is it. Is it a little petty? We can see ourselves. I don't know if a lot of people do that.

I. I enjoy it.

I enjoy it, too.

You're handsome.

Thank you. You're handsome, too.

And so now that all that awkwardness is over, all that awkwardness is over. Let's move on to things that matter.

So normally we have a guest or we have something. You know, we have something.

Yeah.

Lined up. But I want to spend a lot of time. I want to spend all the time really talking to you about your book. So we were headed to Nashville. We're working on a project with one of our friends, Chase Irwin. He does the Uncut Experience. You guys should check that out. It's really, really cool project. He picks up country music, artists, celebrities, all that good stuff. And they interview him in a sprinter van. And it's like, you get to spend the day with a celebrity. Like, from that point of view, it's not just like they're sitting down and.

It'S this real prepared interview. Like, no, they're hanging out, they're relaxed. They're with their friends. Oh, yeah.

No, it's. It's. And, yeah, I don't. That's just a genius idea. I mean, the whole thing is genius. But anyways, we were on our way to Nashville, and, you know, you. You had some calls, but we also were talking about your book, and it's. It's.

It's a reality happening.

It's gonna actually happen.

It's happening early spring. It'll be published and out.

Can we say the name? The working title?

The working title is Got no Strings on Me. We're still waiting to see if Disney clears it because it's obviously a book about Pinocchio. But, yeah, so we're waiting to see if Disney clears the title. But that's the working title. That's sort of the hope.

So I went through, like, what you have. I've read a lot of it, and it's good stuff. Like, I'm not saying that just because Tommy's sitting right here beside me.

He might be.

It really is good stuff. There was one part in particular we'll go into later that shook me, that I felt like I was the only guy that felt that way. I was the only dad that felt that way. And then to hear you say exactly what, like, my fears were, I was like, okay, this is. This is freeing for me. But anyways, yeah, let's get into it.

Yeah, man, let's talk about.

Well, okay, so what. What's. What's kind of developed since the last time we talked about it. I don't know what all we've got into what all we talk.

Yes, we just talked a little bit, I think, last time about the fact that I was writing a book that it was based on, you know, the Pinocchio story as Disney tells it. And some of the things that I sort of got out of watching that as I really examined it. And it all kind of came from this weird moment where I was sort of awakened with this one weird thought that Pinocchio is a tragedy. And it really is. When you start thinking about it like Pinocchio is sort of this weird story, right? Where he is one of one in the entire universe. And then all of a sudden what he wants more than anything is to be a real boy. One of sort of like a hundred thousand or whatever, one of a lot of people in his village. And how I just thought, like, man, that's so tragic that we all sort of do that. We all pull a Pinocchio where we are uniquely made with talents and abilities and creative license, and we all go out, we do those things. But what most of us want is to just fit in, you know, especially growing up, just to fit in and how that's such a tragedy that we were meant to be unique and have all of our things. And maybe for me it was just personal because I feel so weird all the time. I feel so out of place all the time. And I needed to give myself. I was in a moment where I probably needed to give myself permission to just be me instead of trying to fit in. And I was. I was.

Which is a good thing.

Yeah, maybe.

No, it really is. It really is.

No, but that whole idea that, that for me was where I was at and was struggling with. I. You know, we had sold a company and I'd stayed on with the company temporarily that bought us and was having trouble fitting in because they were very. It was a corporate structure. And I went from being, you're more.

Creative than you are, more creative than.

Corporate, but more family than corporate. And so I went. I went from being like the dad of a family to an employee in a structure. And that was not work wise, right? Yeah, work wise. Yeah. So like, so our. We never called our company. We never ever called our company work. It was always family. It's like even like staff meetings were family meetings. Yeah. And so I went from being really what I thought was like dad, the guy in charge of vision and leading and letting everybody else find their best self and all that into being an executive and being an executive in a corporation that had very rigid structure and not a lot of bleed over. And everybody sort of had. Well, and I say not everybody because, man, there are some incredible folks. There's one particular person that I struggled with getting to know and getting along with, and I was really struggling with that because I get along with everybody. And so it was like, he's purposely trying not to like me, and I don't like that. And so I was just in a weird spot. And so I was like, man, I'm gonna be Pinocchio. I'm gonna be the anti Pinocchio. I'm gonna enjoy the fact that I'm unique and just one of one, and try to be my best. But then I started looking at the story and getting into, like, other rules that apply and other, like, you know, things, wisdom that you could get out of that story. And it kind of went down to, like, there's some things that you can learn from watching Geppetto, and there's good and bad, and there are things that you can learn from looking at Pinocchio's role in the story and Jiminy Cricket's role in the story, and even down to the cat and the goldfish. You know, like those. Those other, like, sort of supporting characters, they all had a role to play in the miraculous. And I, more than anything, because I think when you are unique, when you are one of one in the universe, that that kind of qualifies you to be a miracle, right?

Yeah.

And so for me, it really. And for all the people listening, it really was a matter of trying to figure out how to understand the miraculous in me and then how to, like, really live that out and be a miracle for other people. And what does it mean to be a miracle? And what is it? What are the responsibilities of being a miracle? Because, you know, one of the things I talked about briefly in the book, and I'm sure, like, will get expanded before it's published, is that miracles never exist for themselves. And so if you are unique and you are uniquely positioned and you are uniquely gifted and you are uniquely talented and you are a miracle, and you can come to grips with the fact that, like, okay, I can wrap my head around the fact that based on everything he's saying, I am miraculous, then the first. The first bridge that you have to cross is, all right, well, now I don't exist for myself, Right?

It's not for you.

Because miracles never are. Self serving.

Yeah.

Not one time have I ever heard or seen of a miracle that was for someone, for themselves.

One of the things I, and I have to admit too to the people and you caught me when I finished your book this morning and I was watching on YouTube the Got no Strings on me because I don't remember a lot of the movie. I mean I feel like I remember parts of it. And then when we start talking about like that's, that's that that happened and obviously it's all mixed up in my brain. It's all been replaced with office trivia knowledge. So I had to, I had to.

Do a get rid of some things, spring clean the Nokio trivia to fill it with office.

But one thing you talked about in your book, which you were just talking about a little bit is that, you know, allowing you to be you. And I think that's something that I've kind of experienced in my life too where you know, you're, you're in a place with people who are your friends. You're obviously not just like an outcast or a loser or whatever, but you find yourself different. And. Yeah, and it's not like, oh, they, they do things a little bit different, but you almost find yourself on the outside looking in of your own group because you are unique. But you don't realize that's what it is. And you live through that. Right. Like that was, that was you growing up. That was you.

Yeah, that's, that's me out of the womb. I've always been a little different. Yeah. So. But no, that's, you know, and that's not to say that I'm special. It just means that I'm different, you know.

Right.

I was just cut different and it wasn't.

But that's good.

And I think it has ended up being good.

Yeah, well, I think a lot of.

People, some people end up in jail because they're different.

Yeah, that's true. Some people though I think are gifted, are special and they stand out like that. But because they don't, and this falls right into everything you write in your story. But because they don't realize that or have the, that self realization moment of where they're at and what they are, they try to be like everybody else. Like I've done that myself.

Well, I mean that was, that was a struggle for me. You know, I got bullied in middle school pre intensely and you know, if it weren't for like a couple of friends that just, you know, really one friend that really was like, yeah, whatever. And we were opposites, you know, he wasn't. You know, Townsend's his name. He's probably watching and. And he's been around where he's a partner and he's been around. Townsend. Yeah. Six. Six best friends since sixth grade. And so, um, you know. But he grew up on a farm, and, you know, like me. But I went to a private school. That's. Which is where I met Townsend. My parents, like, moved me into a small private school, and I was, like, one of 18 kids in my class. 18. 16 boys and two girls. So you can imagine the testosterone. And it was like, Sharks, man. But I also, because I spoke slang and had a sense of style that came from a culture that, you know, up until sixth grade was all I was a part of, and then went to a school where, you know, it was the opposite culture. At any rate, it was. It was a rough transition for me. And Townsend, who is not any of those things, like me, was just like, okay, well, I'll just be his friend.

Yeah.

And he was my friend. I mean, he was my only friend for a long, long time. Until we, you know, until I changed schools again, until I met you. And then that was great.

Now you have two friends.

Now I have two friends. That's. Which is great, because I've only known you for, like, eight minutes, so I feel much better about life now.

Fifteen minutes, actually.

Fifteen minutes we've been talking. Yeah. But the moral of the story is, like, I struggled because in those moments, I was never sadder, I was never more depressed. I was never more unhappy. And all I wanted in that moment was to just fit in. And I realize now as an adult that what made me unhappy was not fitting in. It was this desire to fit in that couldn't get achieved.

Yeah.

The Bible says. The Bible says that hope deferred makes the heart sick. And what was making my heart sick wasn't the not fitting in. It was the hope to fit in that was never going to happen. And so if you can manage hoping for the right things, you can avoid depression, you can avoid. Because hope. Hope that gets deferred is what makes your heart sick. It's the. It's the viral infection of your heart is this hope that you don't have the ability to create for yourself what you want. And it's not part of your plan. It's not part of what you should want. You know, and so when you manage your wants and desires better and your hopes, then you can avoid a Lot of sadness. And so that's, that was a lesson I learned hard as a 12 year old.

What are some key identifiers for people who, I mean, obviously I'm talking about like an older crowd who may still be in a situation, but just needs to know, hey, it's okay to not be normal. It's okay to not be like everybody else. You know, like identifying those and not having to feel like that for your whole life. How can, how can they point those out?

You know? So I have like some rules. So I have some rules for, like on the rules for miracles. Like, so when you want to, like when you want to be a miracle, and the first one for me, and it's really funny because, like, we have like, it would become kind of a rallying cry for our office for our first business, is that the rules, the first rule is the rules don't apply. And so there are, there are no rules for miracles. Like, if miracles had to abide by rules, you'd never see any spontaneous healing. You'd never see any, you know, you'd never see miracles. Because miracles by definition are outside of the rules. Right? So they're just outside of the rules. And so if they're outside of the rules, then the rules never applied. Right. And so that's my thought. And so like the first rule for miracles is that the rules don't apply for miracles. There are no rules. They're. They're intended. So if you are feeling sort of fenced in in one area of your life, if you're feeling fenced in in your corporate world, if you're feeling fenced in in your even just like business acumen or the results that your business is getting, and that's an indication that you need a miracle. Right? So if you're feeling fenced in, then you need a miracle. Well, then you have to go hunt for the miraculous, right? For in yourself or in other people. And so the second rule for miracles is if you're feeling fenced in and you want to be a miracle, then you have to realize that that's not for you. If you need something, you have to have a relationship with someone else who wants to be a miracle, because that's how you get access to it working for you. But you being miraculous is intended for other people. I don't feel like, I don't feel like miracles get the, get the space to be used selfishly. I don't, I don't feel like it's allowed.

Yeah.

And so that freed me up. So like one of the things that. When we first started our first business and it failed miserably, I had all this, like. It wasn't. It was just self confidence. It wasn't arrogance. It was just confidence. But it was like, I feel like I've been waiting for this my whole life as a chance where I can be me. Like, right. I can really fully go, like, full force, full volume Tommy can be Tommy for the first time. Nobody can tell me to be quiet. I'm going to be the boss now. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was just like. It was crazy. I had permission to go be my full volume self, but all I wanted to do was succeed and prove to everybody that full volume Tommy was the way it should be from the very beginning. And it fell on its face because I was using all the things that miraculous about me to validate me. And miracles never get used for self validation. They just don't. It was when I said, and I've talked to you, mackenzie, about this thing, and when it's. When I've said I exist for you. My whole point here is to get you to a place where you're the best you. And get MacKenzie to the place where she's the best her. And then I feel like that rises the tide, and my boat happens to sit in the same water. So if I can raise the tide, it rises all boats. And so now it becomes about the miraculous part of elevating, of co. Elevating everyone, is that you're changing the tide. And so anybody in the water gets to come up instead of just, I want to raise my boat.

Right.

Because it's impossible to levitate a boat above the water, but it is possible to raise the water. Right. And so my job is just to raise the water. And I don't think about my boat ever when I'm doing it. I'm only trying to, like, flip, focus on you and McKenzie. So the first rule is miracles. There are no rules for miracles. The second rule for miracles, even though I said rule number one is there are no rules, is. Yeah. So rule number one, there are no rules. Rule number two is that miracles always appear to serve someone else. And then the third thing. And this is a list of five. So we're going to get through all five. Let's do it. All right.

Let's do it.

Is that you don't get caught up in the strings of other. I saw you watching the clip.

Yeah.

Today there's. That's a cool. That's a cool part.

Yeah.

Of the Pinocchio thing. So like, there's a spot where Pinocchio and Jiminy Cricket are kind of off on their own. And he's in trouble, and he gets sort of, like, child trafficked into slavery with this guy named Stromboli. And he gets put on the stage, right? And he's. He's a little nervous.

That should have been Red Flag number one.

Yeah, Red Flag number one. Yeah. Stromboli had, like, a Wayfair jacket on.

It was weird cabinets in the back.

Cabinets in the back background. There were actually, like, cabinets. Yeah, yeah. So it's where all the other puppets were. So Walt Disney was pushing this agenda a long time ago. Sorry, this is. That's just like a 10 second, like, you know, tangent for all my qanon.

We're in a simulation.

We are. I can't do it with you guys. All right, so. But there's a scene where Pinocchio is, like, dancing for the first. Like, he's in a puppet show. He gets child trafficked into being a performer in a puppet show because he looks like a puppet, except he doesn't have any strings. And it's this miracle happening. And Strombolis is like, I'm gonna put this miracle on stage for other people to see because other people will pay to watch your miracle, and they won't go get their own.

Yeah.

And that's why a lot of people go to church, so they can pay to see somebody else's miracle. And they won't just get their own.

But they can check the box.

They can check the box, right?

Yeah.

So anyway, so he puts him on stage and then there's this weird moment. Think about how strange this has to be. Like, this has got to be the weirdest thing that has ever happened to anyone in all of creation in history. Is that Pinocchio who looks like everybody that's surrounding him, like all the other puppets, Right. He looks just like them. Same structure, same wood, same joints, same every. Like he's looking at a copy of himself, but it's lifeless, like there's no life. There's a person above it, pulling the strings, giving it voice. How weird is that? Like, what a moment of self realization that has to. Has to be. Where he realizes that he's not who he wants to be, a real boy, but he's also not who he once was.

Yeah.

And I feel like that all the time. And I feel like that's where most people need their miracle. Where they. Most people don't need a miracle to stop being who they currently are. That's just. They don't need miracle. They just need willpower.

Yeah.

Like, you can. You can. If you're. If you're an alcoholic, you can have willpower and decide to not drink any, to stop drinking. What? Right now you need a miracle to maintain sobriety, to walk you from, like, you know, I can be. I can be at a bar and be an alcoholic and drink my last beer and just decide not to get another one. Guess what? I'm not drinking anymore. It's the. I don't want to drink again in an hour, and I don't want to drink again in a day, and I don't want to drink again in a. Like, that's the miraculous part. Everybody comes to the end of what's in the can. Right. And so you don't really need a miracle to stop being who you are. That's just the end of that opportunity of you being who you are.

Yeah.

The first step's easy. It's the second, third, fourth, and all the way to. You achieve who you imagine that you want to be. That's where you need a miracle. And that's where we find Pinocchio in this moment where he is not who he was, but he's not who he wants to be. And even though I believe that who he wants to be is misguided, it is a transition. And in that transition, he gets. I think that's where it's so easy to get caught up by other people, for other people to take advantage of you and of people. And it's. When you catch people in transition is when you can really take advantage of them or be taken advantage of. And I think that's what they have to watch out for. And so. But he's dancing around with all these other puppets, all these. He's interacting with people who are still dead and enslaved. Right. They've still got strings and chains on them. And it's in the interaction of those people where he gets all tied up. And it, like, the show comes to an end and it, like, falls down and, like, it's this hot mess. And he ends up with. On his face in the floor with his nose and a hole in the ground. Yeah. Uncomfortable, Stuck. It damages the floor. He breaks the floor. And there's, like, this whole, like, group of metaphors there that if we really look at, like, nobody that has ever experienced miraculous freedom needs to be tied up with other people who are still in slavery.

Yeah.

Like, that's. That's huge. Like, that's. That's a big deal. Like, That's. You should just. We could have an entire podcast on that. This idea that if you're different, be different, but. So it's. It's in setting other people free that you normalize things. If you. If you feel different and you want to be surrounded by people like you, then cut their strings. Don't join them in their. In their mess.

Man, that is a whole nother podcast.

Right, Right. So. So if you want to normalize things, it's by raising people up, not by going back down to where they are. Don't digress. To get back to normal. Normalization isn't the goal. And so that's the other part of that. And then avoid getting caught up in the strings of others. So that's rule three is don't get caught up in the strings of others.

I did notice, too. I'm sorry.

No.

One thing, and I'm sure this ties in with what you're saying, because you didn't miss anything in that movie, bro.

I'm serious. That movie, for me, was. The whole time I was watching it back to, like, get more clarity. I was watching. I was like, God, dog, everything's good.

It's different. Well, I noticed that. I was watching them dance. That clip I was watching this morning. And so you have the puppets that come in on strings, and they dance. I mean, they dance pretty well. But then there's Pinocchio who comes in. He can do things that they can't. Like, he's already. He's looking at these people that he doesn't want to be, and he's too focused on that. Like, he's not really valuing where he's at and who he is and what he's got. He's more, like distracted, looking at what he wants to be, which is even more normal. But, I mean, here's these puppets who can't do what he does, and, you know, they have to have somebody controlling them, but he doesn't. He can move in ways they can't, but he's just not valuing that. And he's, like, overlooking.

And what messes him up is him trying to do what they're doing.

Yeah, right. So he's like, yeah, like that digression you were talking about.

But I have an extra degree of freedom, but I'm going to spend my time trying to be what you are. Yeah. And that messed them up completely because.

You forget how special you are. You. You overlook that. You don't, you know, focus in on what you actually have. You're too busy looking At. It's the comparison game. Yeah, yeah.

It's that adaptive.

Yeah.

Trademark Comparison Paradox. Trademark. Yeah. So those are the first three. And the last two are maybe a little. The last one's super easy, but the last. The fourth one is, you know, so if you can avoid getting caught up in the strings of others, it's that things that don't get valued get abused. And so if you don't value your miraculous nature, the things that make you miraculous, you'll abuse them. It so like, and it's not about intentionally abusing it, it's about not knowing its purpose. And so for me, like, for example, this is a microphone. It's an excellent microphone. It makes me sound way better than I actually sound because I have this thing about my voice. And so this thing actually makes me sound really good. It's got this really nice radio deep like, thing. And. But if I walked in and like we were doing a construction project in here and I needed a hammer and I didn't know what this was, and sort of shaped like a hammer, and I bet you I could drive some nails with this thing if I really wanted to. I mean, it's heavy, it's steel. I could take it out of this little holder and I could beat some nails into wood, the walls here, whatever. I was gonna hang some pictures, but if I went and plugged this back in and then tried to use it as a microphone, it would just be destroyed, right? So anything that we don't understand its purpose, we always unintentionally abuse it because we'll use it for purposes it wasn't intended for. And almost nine out of ten times, I've never seen someone get abused or used in a purpose that it wasn't its intent and it not come out with some sort of damage. Just never seen any that not. Not happen to anything. And so when you. It's so important that you understand that the miracle's not for you, that always is there to serve someone else. There weren't any rules that stopped you from being miraculous all the time. And if you can stay out of the strings of others, then you can avoid other people not understanding your miracle and abusing you. And if you can stay out of the strings of others, you have enough mental and emotional bandwidth to really focus on the miracle inside of you and not self abuse, right? So not take your talents, not take your abilities and sort of prostitute them for gain, but to protect them and connect them to other miracles so that you get greater impact in the earth. And so that's the. And then the fifth rule is when in doubt, refer to rule number one is if you're ever in doubt, just remember the rules didn't apply to start with. Yeah, they're more like.

Guidelines.

Guidelines or what's the things on the side of the road? Guard rails. Yeah, yeah, they're. They're more like guardrails than they are rules. You know, you. I pay taxes on both sides of the road. I'll drive in whatever lane I want to. The rules don't apply. But at the end of the day, there are some safety measures that are there. And if you can act miraculous without rules and then remember 2, 3 and 4, then you can pretty much make it through.

Yeah.

And that's, that's really the hope. And that's just like. So that's like one like literally that's like one paragraph out of one chapter out of the book. Right.

That's such a small part of everything you cover. But it's still.

But yeah, so that's, that's, that's interesting that that's the part that you really liked and we can, we can talk more about it, you know, offline. But that's super interesting to me that, that part really made sense. I love it.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Well, we're at 30 minutes, man.

Yeah. This is the longest we talked, I think in a while.

I know, it's been great.

It has been great. Well, let's wrap it up.

Yeah.

So we, we have a website, leadfastcode.com you guys can check it out. Have lots of resources, subscription based model. So we've changed that. I don't know if we put that.

Out last time, but no. So yeah, so maybe we've changed things since everybody got here.

I think we have.

I wanted to make it super easy for everyone to participate with leadfast. And so like you heard earlier on Daniel said that we were in Nashville working and helping out a friend. And so we think all of our clients are friends. But Chase Irwin does the Uncut Experience, which is a great YouTube show. And lead Fast is sort of the executive producing team for that. And so we have Chase's project we work on. We have another project with a company called crowdsafe that we're working on business development. So it's not just Lead Fast will provide you like the theory and the thought behind we'll get involved with your business. We sort of act as adjunct personal development. So if you want to have more leadership training, we can come in and do the leadership training for your business. And that way you don't. You're not paying for an entire department. It's sort of like, you know, like adjunct staff or adjunct employees. And so we come in and we can handle leadership development. If you are a startup and you need marketing and video production and those types of things like Chase is. And we come in and we help with logo development, marketing plans, concept development, those types of things that we're really good at. And we have an amazing team that already fills all those roles here. We just deploy it, we'll have a meeting. That's how that works. And so we were in Nashville working with Chase. We've done some work with a company that does aesthetic cosme, medical cosmetology and like Botox injections and those types of things. We did an entire six week session with them and their company. Yeah. So we enjoy that more than anything else. So we wanted to make it super easy for everyone to get the knowledge that leadfast provides and then also give you an opportunity to engage with us. And so you can go to leadfastco.com and now get all of our content, all the teaching, all the classes, all of everything for $25 a month. Right now it's usually like 49, but we have a special running right now. So you can use a code and take off half of that. Because we wanted people to engage with us in a real meaningful way early on.

Yeah. And we also have content very similar to this on YouTube. It is on YouTube but Instagram. So Lead Fast, Coadfast co and you can get like lots of just motivation, business tips, ideas, all that good stuff. Just check us out, subscribe. Our podcast is everywhere. Podcasts are played and streamed to Listen to and YouTube. Tell everybody about us and we'll see you guys next time.

Yep, it's a guess.